Active Topics
-
Is there a section to talk about Java ME? Apps, etc. (3)
to General by Kalatti - 1 day, 6 hrs ago - more...
shmerl |
2013-05-29
, 00:16
|
|
Posts: 1,298 |
Thanked: 2,277 times |
Joined on May 2011
|
#1
|
Here is a thread for IM related subjects which often turns to be a hot topic.
|
|
2013-05-29
, 00:24
|
|
Posts: 1,298 |
Thanked: 2,277 times |
Joined on May 2011
|
#2
|
Originally Posted by youmeego
XMPP is an open IM protocol, and Jingle is it's signaling counterpart (used for audio/video communication).
how do we use xmpp/jingle?
To use it you need to have an XMPP client, and to be registered on one of the existing XMPP servers (i.e. services). There are many, including major ones like Google Talk server. (Right now Google subverts the site from Google Talk to Hangouts, so I'd avoid this one, but if you have a gmail account you should automatically have a Google Talk server account as well).
Another good example is DuckDuckGo server: https://dukgo.com/blog/using-pidgin-with-xmpp-jabber
Here is list (far from complete) of various others: http://xmpp.net
There are several good desktop XMPP clients.
For example: Pidgin http://www.pidgin.im (supports Jingle only on Linux).
Adium: http://adium.im (only for MacOSX, supports Jingle).
Jitsi: https://jitsi.org Cross platform, supports Jingle.
There are also DE integrated XMPP/Jingle Linux clients like KDE Telepathy for example.
Mobile scene looks worse. I'm not aware of a good mobile XMPP/Jingle client except for Jitsi which only has Android version now. It's written in Java though, that's why for Sailfish it would be preferable to have a native client, and Jolla most probably addressed this issue.
As a side note, you can even run your own XMPP server, and federate with the rest of the XMPP network.
Last edited by shmerl; 2013-05-29 at 00:32.
|
|
2013-05-29
, 16:27
|
|
Posts: 1,298 |
Thanked: 2,277 times |
Joined on May 2011
|
#3
|
Originally Posted by bandora
They did manage to register on Skype service and install a Skype client didn't they? So their level of tech savvyness was enough for that. So, why do you expect their level to be insuffucient to do the same thing with XMPP clients and services? There is no difficulty difference in that regard.
Simple answet for that.. Because none of them know anything about those protocols and won't bother to setup anything like that just so thry can talk to me.. Because it's also too "complicated" for them.. You do understand that the majority of people aren't as tech savvy as you and I..
Anyways ur right it's getting out of hand with the off-topic this was my last about this particular subject..
EDIT:
My point exactly ..
If you mean that even Skype wasn't installed by them, but someone else (you?) helped them install it, the same thing can happen with XMPP clients. Just help and educate your friends and family about it.
 |
|
2013-05-29
, 22:07
|
|
Posts: 434 |
Thanked: 990 times |
Joined on May 2010
@ Australia
|
#4
|
i'd love to know what the preferred alternative is to skype in china...
Given their government's penchant for spying on most mobile traffic.
extract from Skype Privacy Policy which is agreed to in the T&C
"Skype, Skype's local partner, or the operator or company facilitating your communication may provide personal data, communications content and/or traffic data to an appropriate judicial, law enforcement or government authority lawfully requesting such information. Skype will provide reasonable assistance and information to fulfill this request and you hereby consent to such disclosure.
From the SKYPE PRIVACY POLICY."
Given their government's penchant for spying on most mobile traffic.
extract from Skype Privacy Policy which is agreed to in the T&C
"Skype, Skype's local partner, or the operator or company facilitating your communication may provide personal data, communications content and/or traffic data to an appropriate judicial, law enforcement or government authority lawfully requesting such information. Skype will provide reasonable assistance and information to fulfill this request and you hereby consent to such disclosure.
From the SKYPE PRIVACY POLICY."
__________________
Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.
Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.
 |
|
2013-05-29
, 23:59
|
|
Posts: 1,396 |
Thanked: 2,796 times |
Joined on Sep 2010
@ Caracas, Venezuela
|
#5
|
You're looking at the IM problem from the wrong side.
The idea of IM is messaging to other people, right? If the BIG MAJORITY of "other people" are using closed protocols then open protocols are WORTHLESS, even if you don't like the idea.
There's no point on creating an XMPP account in an unknown server if you can't chat with anybody you're interested in chatting to. You won't convince your friends and family to move from whatever closed protocol they are using (Skype, WhatsApp, etc) to your open protocol because they would have the same problem: "Would I move just to chat with YOU? and what about the REST of the people I want to chat with?".
This big majority of people don't really care if WhatsApp is stealing their phonebooks or if Skype is listening to your conversations (that's absurd though). If you do care and don't use these protocols, then you'll be alone and nobody will chat with you. People is NOT moving to open IM protocols.
So the only solution to the IM problem is that a VERY BIG COMPANY (like Google) push an open IM protocol to the world and hopefully everybody would move to that.
... and that's what I thought was the GTalk faith, but it isn't.
The idea of IM is messaging to other people, right? If the BIG MAJORITY of "other people" are using closed protocols then open protocols are WORTHLESS, even if you don't like the idea.
There's no point on creating an XMPP account in an unknown server if you can't chat with anybody you're interested in chatting to. You won't convince your friends and family to move from whatever closed protocol they are using (Skype, WhatsApp, etc) to your open protocol because they would have the same problem: "Would I move just to chat with YOU? and what about the REST of the people I want to chat with?".
This big majority of people don't really care if WhatsApp is stealing their phonebooks or if Skype is listening to your conversations (that's absurd though). If you do care and don't use these protocols, then you'll be alone and nobody will chat with you. People is NOT moving to open IM protocols.
So the only solution to the IM problem is that a VERY BIG COMPANY (like Google) push an open IM protocol to the world and hopefully everybody would move to that.
... and that's what I thought was the GTalk faith, but it isn't.
__________________
Support Yappari (a Whatsapp client for the N900 only) - Donate
Support Yappari (a Whatsapp client for the N900 only) - Donate
 |
|
2013-05-30
, 03:00
|
|
Posts: 1,338 |
Thanked: 1,055 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ California, USA / Jordan
|
#6
|
Thank you Scorpius... That's exactly what I was trying to say... Unfortunately I can't have everyone change from Skype to something else, because they also have friends and family that uses those closed propietry software/protocols.. This is what people here don't get.. People who aren't tech savvy aka the average joe doesn't know the difference betwwen Skype and Jabber... And won't care.. That's why Skype is popular and Jabber isn't...
__________________
FarahFa.com
FarahFa.com
|
|
2013-05-30
, 03:37
|
|
Posts: 1,298 |
Thanked: 2,277 times |
Joined on May 2011
|
#7
|
I'd say if people don't use XMPP - I just won't chat with them. May be some people prefer pigeon mail, but if I'm too far - they just won't reach me. It's not like they physically have no other means of communication.
Given that some people are already too busy with closed networks like you described, you can assume that their contacts are not on the same network, and therefore these people are using many clients and they are used to it, since all those closed networks are not interoperable. I.e. these people have Skype, Whatsapp and whatever else installed and they cope with this pile of incompatible clients. Then it won't be hard for them to add another - XMPP one to communicate with you. Plain and simple if they can't do that, I'll find it strange that they can do the same thing for that pile of closed clients they are already dealing with.
Last edited by shmerl; 2013-05-30 at 03:59.
Given that some people are already too busy with closed networks like you described, you can assume that their contacts are not on the same network, and therefore these people are using many clients and they are used to it, since all those closed networks are not interoperable. I.e. these people have Skype, Whatsapp and whatever else installed and they cope with this pile of incompatible clients. Then it won't be hard for them to add another - XMPP one to communicate with you. Plain and simple if they can't do that, I'll find it strange that they can do the same thing for that pile of closed clients they are already dealing with.
Originally Posted by bandora
I don't see how this affects popularity. If they don't know the difference it doesn't make one more popular than another. Skype is just older, so it's bigger. You can help educating people who don't understand why they can send e-mails from their server to users of another, but can't chat with users of another IM service. Explain to them the idiocy of closed IM networks and the difference that XMPP can make.
People who aren't tech savvy aka the average joe doesn't know the difference betwwen Skype and Jabber... And won't care.. That's why Skype is popular and Jabber isn't...
Last edited by shmerl; 2013-05-30 at 03:59.
|
|
2013-05-30
, 16:07
|
|
Posts: 230 |
Thanked: 302 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Helsinki, Suomi (Finland)
|
#8
|
Originally Posted by Scorpius
My family and friends use XMPP to contact me so I obiviously don't face the problem you are facing. I'm perfectly able to chat with everyone I want to.
You're looking at the IM problem from the wrong side.
The idea of IM is messaging to other people, right? If the BIG MAJORITY of "other people" are using closed protocols then open protocols are WORTHLESS, even if you don't like the idea.
There's no point on creating an XMPP account in an unknown server if you can't chat with anybody you're interested in chatting to. You won't convince your friends and family to move from whatever closed protocol they are using (Skype, WhatsApp, etc) to your open protocol because they would have the same problem: "Would I move just to chat with YOU? and what about the REST of the people I want to chat with?".
This big majority of people don't really care if WhatsApp is stealing their phonebooks or if Skype is listening to your conversations (that's absurd though). If you do care and don't use these protocols, then you'll be alone and nobody will chat with you. People is NOT moving to open IM protocols.
So the only solution to the IM problem is that a VERY BIG COMPANY (like Google) push an open IM protocol to the world and hopefully everybody would move to that.
... and that's what I thought was the GTalk faith, but it isn't.
Sometimes people have asked if I have Skype, Whatsapp, Facebook etc. account and I have told them my reasons for not using these services and almost everyone has understood. These same people have usually had no other reason than popularity for using aforementioned services so they've had no problem creating XMPP account if they wanted to keep in contact with me.
Especially if they use client like Pidgin it's not like they'd have to move anywhere, just create account for yet another protocol and that's it. All their Facebook, GTalk, Skype, ICQ and XMPP contacts are in the same list all accessible via the same app.
I don't think it's absurd to presume that closed services will use your data to their advantage. Some like Facebook even generate their revenue mainly from selling profiling information of you to advertisers and other interested parties.
"Facebook is the largest opt-in community of individuals in the world, and boasts unparalleled reach," Pasi said. "In English, that means it's likely the largest database of people ever built, and contains more personal data than any other source."
Is it absurd to presume that governments want to tap into that information? Pretty much everything indicates that they already do.
FSB and the Internal Affairs Ministry (MVD) have been capable to wiretap and locate Skype users for some years already, reports Vedomosti on Thursday. The newspaper is citing experts on information security.
Many people probably think that as long as they do nothing illegal it's allright that governments have access to their communications. But do they really know about tomorrow? What if some authoritarian regime gets into power? (unlikely, but it happens)
I understand that people are willing to give away something in order to be part of "majority" as you say. I just hope you understand that there are some good reasons for not being one of them. My privacy is not worthless to me. I might even think that it's morally right to do something that my government says is illegal, who knows.
Last edited by ladoga; 2013-05-30 at 16:17.
|
|
2013-05-30
, 17:00
|
|
Posts: 3,464 |
Thanked: 5,107 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ Gothenburg in Sweden
|
#9
|
Originally Posted by Scorpius
As always its about marketing, marketing, marketing. Thats what Open protocols SHALL DO to make people choose it instead of those closed crap ptotocols.
You're looking at the IM problem from the wrong side.
The idea of IM is messaging to other people, right? If the BIG MAJORITY of "other people" are using closed protocols then open protocols are WORTHLESS, even if you don't like the idea.
Peoples internet behave can quickly change. It seems people forgot how those big corporation had successed with Facebook, twitter etc. They were also very small at the beginning.
I remember faceshit was for geeks at the start same for utube, Google and so on. First the geeks comes then the masses.
So with marketing of open standards from some new cool company it can change again.
No big company is big forever. History has shown it several times. Just look at Nokia for got sake. Same way will Apple and Google go in the longer run.
__________________
Keep safe and healthy
Keep safe and healthy
Last edited by mikecomputing; 2013-05-30 at 17:04.
|
|
2013-05-30
, 22:35
|
|
Posts: 479 |
Thanked: 1,284 times |
Joined on Jan 2012
@ Enschede, The Netherlands
|
#10
|
Marketing requires money. And it's probably easier and therefor more profitable to market some "unique selling point" made possible by some proprietary system, than it is to market some standard which can be used by the competition as well.
People hop from one service to another in an eye blink. Yesterday it was MSN, now it is whatsapp. It is very hard to convince them that open standards are better *for them* in the long run.
But it's the consumer as well. I often cite e-mail as an example; everyone has an e-mail account and knows you can use it to communicate with everybody else, regardless what service provider they have. And that you can change provider at will, without loosing the ability to contact your friends. And even to host it yourself, if you're inclined to do so. And that you can use any client you want. And that you can "log in" from as many devices or locations as you desire. Yet I'm met with total indifference when I tell them that XMPP provides the same benefits, including the *free* offers, including late Google Talk.
I'm quite stumped and at a lost at how much the general population just doesn't care.
People hop from one service to another in an eye blink. Yesterday it was MSN, now it is whatsapp. It is very hard to convince them that open standards are better *for them* in the long run.
But it's the consumer as well. I often cite e-mail as an example; everyone has an e-mail account and knows you can use it to communicate with everybody else, regardless what service provider they have. And that you can change provider at will, without loosing the ability to contact your friends. And even to host it yourself, if you're inclined to do so. And that you can use any client you want. And that you can "log in" from as many devices or locations as you desire. Yet I'm met with total indifference when I tell them that XMPP provides the same benefits, including the *free* offers, including late Google Talk.
I'm quite stumped and at a lost at how much the general population just doesn't care.