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Dave999 is offline Dave999
2019-02-11 , 19:17
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#481
Originally Posted by ajalkane View Post
You raise a valid point.

Let us consider human eye. It's not that big really. You could imagine embedding something of that size to a mobile phone. And the human eye can catch some nicely detailed images, am I right? Even if you disagreed with that assertion, you might agree that if a human can't tell difference with his eye to that of a photo, it is ample enough quality.

So future mobile phones could use same techniques that human eye and brain uses to create pictures. That's just proof of concept.

Now, human eye was developed by Yahweh. I think we can all agree that Yahweh is quite powerful. But the word "genius" is probably not the word any of us would use to describe him. So it's not at all far fetched to consider that humans could design a camera that is smaller and more efficient than what Yahweh did with human eye.

Sound logic?
Very logical!

let me pitch some stuff:
so the story begins...Phones will kill all the compacts-->The death of the DSLR-->AI will transform photography-->VR will kick in and then cams will be attached to body or Eyes...
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Last edited by Dave999; 2019-02-11 at 19:32.
 

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juiceme is offline juiceme
2019-02-11 , 19:46
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#482
Originally Posted by ajalkane View Post
You raise a valid point.

Let us consider human eye. It's not that big really. You could imagine embedding something of that size to a mobile phone. And the human eye can catch some nicely detailed images, am I right?
OK well I'll smack right up your challenge and disagree with you promptly.
A human eye is not really a camera worth a pennydrop. That's optically speaking it is really the worst piece of equipment one might ever come into contact with. Any cheapo webcam made this century trumps tha poor eyeball with lenscap on...

Consider the eye; it's a squishy piece of somewhat milky fluid that has poor pieces that try to make up for focusing and intensity control, and the sensor element is random splash of cells that sense some small part of the spectrum really badly and are even pointing the wrong direction...
Do you have any idea what the actual image on the back wall of the eyeball looks like?? it is not in focus, distorted and bent out of any shape, missing blotches of pieces, refresh rate of few hetrz.... not worth crap really!!

The only thing where human vision excels is the image processing thrown to play to get anything at all usable out of the "picture"
In reality everything you think you see happens inside your brain and nowhere near your eyes. That's the reason for people sometimes noticing or not noticing stuff that should be in "plain sight" btw.

If you don't believe me there's a really simple experiment you can do;
1. look forward and move your eyes from side to side, don't move your neck.
2. look forward and move your head from side to side, keep your eyes moving with your head
3. think for a moment about the way you see, and how the actual image at the back of your eyeballs behaves. (hint; the physical image behaves the same way in both cases...)


Originally Posted by ajalkane View Post
Even if you disagreed with that assertion, you might agree that if a human can't tell difference with his eye to that of a photo, it is ample enough quality.
Nope, it does not work that way.

As I explained above, the vision which is combination of eyeball and brain is what creates your sense of seeing. This is how one experiences reality in direct fashion. When one looks at a photograph it is a different thing, one is experiencing a renderition of reality painted by light through another optical system.


Originally Posted by ajalkane View Post
So future mobile phones could use same techniques that human eye and brain uses to create pictures. That's just proof of concept.
Only if you hook your brain directly to the input device and allow the same processing to run as is being done by using the physical eye... with same adaptation and feedback looping. Possibly will be done one of these days but I doubt not in the few next years.


Originally Posted by ajalkane View Post
Now, human eye was developed by Yahweh. I think we can all agree that Yahweh is quite powerful. But the word "genius" is probably not the word any of us would use to describe him. So it's not at all far fetched to consider that humans could design a camera that is smaller and more efficient than what Yahweh did with human eye.

Sound logic?
I'm not going to be drawn into that discussion, nope.
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imaginaryenemy is offline imaginaryenemy
2019-02-11 , 20:09
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#483
Originally Posted by shaihkritzer View Post
the only hardware camera improvement since 2010 (N900 camera) is better sensor sensitvity in low light (e.g. less noise). and maybe - a brighter led flash. and in terms of video - higher resolution and framerate (obviously coming along with more powerful CPUs). that's all. anyhting remaining is just software effects.

I don't want to pay for software effects because I have photoshop for that.
So are you implying that a RAW photograph taken in good lighting conditions on the N900 would be just as good as a RAW photo taken in the same conditions with a modern device?
 

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catbus is offline catbus
2019-02-11 , 20:11
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#484
Originally Posted by Dave999 View Post
Very logical!

VR will kick in and then cams will be attached to body or Eyes...
...and still trains are always late, even hours...

(sorry stupid finnish joke...)
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Dave999 is offline Dave999
2019-02-11 , 20:16
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#485
Originally Posted by catbus View Post
...and still trains are always late, even hours...

(sorry stupid finnish joke...)
Maybe it was something wrong with my eyes.

Great joke. Don’t get it but it doesn’t matter.
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Last edited by Dave999; 2019-02-11 at 20:22.
 

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endsormeans is offline endsormeans
2019-02-11 , 20:18
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#486
@ ajalkane

well...cameras or phones or computers or Supercomputers or AI or even SI will have a long long long way to go...even with herculean jumps in advancement of tech to mimic what a human eye does...and the information and data it transmits to the brain..
knowingly or unknowingly..
let alone in as compact a size as the human eye itself..

One of the interesting things about an education in fine arts and music that may surprise folks is that there is a great amount of study of not just proportion, distance, dimension, colour and music and physics and other natural laws in art...it is a given to understand ..as well as skeletal, tendon, muscle, organs and their functions and movements and limits, of not just human, but animal as well. So as to be able to render a subject in a scene that is not bending beyond its natural structural capabilities in said scene so as to look "natural" in all aspects...thus fooling the eye.
Some of the more interesting disciplines are to be able to understand dimension for application.
a basic one is to say...is to look at an apple and study it...every square inch. how the light source reflects off it how the environment interacts with it.
When one becomes proficient at this one can see in the mind ...the apple...and all around it. even see behind the apple and inside the apple...and the environment one wishes to construct for the apple to inhabit.
If anyone does this and studies the apple one notices as well the apple is not separate from the environment but welded to it.
There will be areas where the "edge" of the apple disappears into shadows as equally as smears into an area where light seems to invade the "edge" of the apple that is seen.
This type of work is to aid artisans consciously to see and be aware of the dimensional world about us all, that most subconsciously or instinctively only deal with.

The eye is a very very very exceptional tool.
Unlikely to be replicated any time soon.

For example the data that the brain receives from viewing colour alone ...is staggering.
And the incredible function of what the eye manages in collecting that data ...even more staggering.

Just for one example.
(and I know myself I still decades later cannot help but look in absolute wonder and awe ...every now and then ...when I see the colour in question...even still..and I know many will be equally haunted by this once they read it.)

Find anything that has this colour in it.


whether man made or natural.

Now that I have exposed you to this colour.
This is what happens to your eyes.
The moment you looked at it.
The physical characteristics of it are that the nature of the colour yellow vibrates at a molecular level to be able to be visible for us.
For the human eye to discern the colour you just saw,
the molecules in the human eye must set up a corresponding speed to the same rhythm of the colour yellow.

That speed of the molecules in the human eye recognizing that colour yellow are vibrating so many times a second.

A glance at the colour yellow ...
for the eye ..
the number of vibrations the molecules do and the data transmit thereby are the equivalent to the number of all the waves that have washed up on every shore of Earth since the dawn of our planet.
In that one moment.

I doubt that our tech will be able to achieve the insane and mad grace and sophistication of the human eye , the amount of data that is understood, converted, transmitted and received and understood consciously or unconsciously by the human mind.
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2019-02-11 , 21:45
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#487
Originally Posted by Dave999 View Post
It might be sci-fi to you but I think you are wrong. Never is a loooong time.
Phone cameras might have a chance to catch up if real cameras stopped evolving. But they won't so they will always be a few steps ahead.

And ajakane, have you seen a human eye? It's enormous. You would have a hard time fitting it in a full-size SLR, let alone a thin mobile phone. And it's still ractually rather rubbish. The only reason it appears semi-decent is the huge computing power thrown at image post-processing. The good pictures you think your eyes capture are just an illusion.
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2019-02-11 , 22:07
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#488
Originally Posted by pichlo View Post
Phone cameras might have a chance to catch up if real cameras stopped evolving. But they won't so they will always be a few steps ahead.
On the contrary. Both are expected to evolve. That is mandatory to get cool tech. The big fat cam makers will realize that the have to evolve and will get involve in smartphone development and new gadgets will evolve. the tech and the photographer will fundamentally change with, AI, VR, lasers.
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2019-02-11 , 22:23
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#489
From what I've read, the newer (past couple of years) Pixels take better pics tham most high end phones because of software it uses to process photos. I believe it takes multiple shots when you snap a picture and processes them make a superior final pic. It uses HDR+ tech. So hopefully the Google pixel camera apk works on the phone and you'll have pretty good pics even if the camera hardware is not the best.
 

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2019-02-12 , 00:36
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#490
Originally Posted by endsormeans View Post
For example the data that the brain receives from viewing colour alone ...is staggering.
And the incredible function of what the eye manages in collecting that data ...even more staggering.

Just for one example.
(and I know myself I still decades later cannot help but look in absolute wonder and awe ...every now and then ...when I see the colour in question...even still..and I know many will be equally haunted by this once they read it.)

Find anything that has this colour in it.
https://colourlex.com/wp-content/upl..._225-2-opt.jpg

whether man made or natural.

Now that I have exposed you to this colour.
This is what happens to your eyes.
The moment you looked at it.
The physical characteristics of it are that the nature of the colour yellow vibrates at a molecular level to be able to be visible for us.
For the human eye to discern the colour you just saw,
the molecules in the human eye must set up a corresponding speed to the same rhythm of the colour yellow.

That speed of the molecules in the human eye recognizing that colour yellow are vibrating so many times a second.

A glance at the colour yellow ...
for the eye ..
the number of vibrations the molecules do and the data transmit thereby are the equivalent to the number of all the waves that have washed up on every shore of Earth since the dawn of our planet.
In that one moment.
Sounds like pseudo-science. At least, the part about shore of Earth.

Originally Posted by pichlo View Post
And ajakane, have you seen a human eye? It's enormous. You would have a hard time fitting it in a full-size SLR, let alone a thin mobile phone. And it's still ractually rather rubbish. The only reason it appears semi-decent is the huge computing power thrown at image post-processing. The good pictures you think your eyes capture are just an illusion.
Agree. This post-processing involves accounting for the near-sightedness of the eye, or any other problems with "hardware". Also, when looking somewhere, eyes don't stand in one place - they dart around, processing the scene, and maybe even focusing at different points. I don't expect that modern cameras can change focus that quickly - and even if they can, they still lack ability to rotate around.

Actually, human eyes are about the only reason I think dual-camera setup to make sense - for stereo vision and such. Anything having more than three cameras is overkill - and even then, it can be argued that the "third eye" in fish, lizards, tuatara and such is merely a light sensor - and by the way, living "cameras" do not have flash-light (which is so common in modern cameras).

Actually, optical zoom is not included in human eyes either. But I still admire phones which include camera with optical zoom. Be it Nokia N93 or Samsung G810. Even though moving parts are fragile by definition... I still admire sliders, with sand getting stuck inside and everything.

Thank you. Best wishes.
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[Edit]
Originally Posted by mscion View Post
From what I've read, the newer (past couple of years) Pixels take better pics tham most high end phones because of software it uses to process photos. I believe it takes multiple shots when you snap a picture and processes them make a superior final pic. It uses HDR+ tech. So hopefully the Google pixel camera apk works on the phone and you'll have pretty good pics even if the camera hardware is not the best.
Supports the point about image post-processing being as important as, or even more important than, camera hardware. By the way, it would probably be nice to off-load image processing to a dedicated chip, similar to GPU, instead of having the software run on standard CPU.
[/Edit]
 

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