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endsormeans's Avatar
Posts: 2,516 | Thanked: 6,205 times | Joined on Feb 2013 @ From my Gabriola Island hermitage, near the Edge of the World
#41
Originally Posted by juiceme View Post
Well, I do believe there's intrest, but people maybe missed the question in the first post. Furthermore, all of the options you give A/B/C are pretty pessimistic, or else I just did not understand it
ABor C was stated if there wasn't interest or if there was simply contention.

"...If ...however ...there is enough interest...hooray..we are a go...."
I believe roughly followed after ABor C .

hell ...I didn't care if it was an idea of mine or someone else's that got implemented or made and then reproduced. I'm just not interested in having this become the "good read" or the "amusement of the day" post.
Not interested.
And when I hear people start with ...."You should..."
it tends to start smelling bad...
I'm not into that.
I simply like to make stuff.
People aren't interested...or not enough ...to obviously make the effort worthwhile. People here want a better case for their device...but fall silent when it is offered. A part great for their device..what everyone has been complaining for YEARS for...cheap...able to stuff more into their device ...add ports...bigger battery....1 says yes. Ridiculous.
Offer multi-device line holsters/ cases/ forearm cases whatever...silence...hm
Doesn't seem to matter HOW cheap...nor HOW beautiful or customizable .
To say it is a negative doesn't come close....
to say it is depressing doesn't come close...
to say it is frustrating, irritating or any other word ending in "-ing" ....doesn't come close.
What can I say?
I offered...WHATEVER anyone could dream up..that could possibly physically be made with my hands....rendered exquisitely and then copied for EVERYONE .....
No interest.
Redo the entirety of the posts? Why? Condense it? Why? Start a whole new post? Why?
I don't believe turning it all into a paragraph or a one-liner is going to amount to any more than what has already been expressed...
I'm not about to reiterate what I have said long-windedly , succinctly, concisely, verbosely, or any other way. Already been done.
I have no interest.
I would be VASTLY surprised if ANYONE would have even THAT much interest in doing it either.
I find it incredibly surprising even a few have enough interest to strain and use a couple finger tendons to "left-click" a thanks button.

Instead of endlessly showing a parade of things produced for the amusement of all...
Instead of endlessly explaining anything...
Instead of seeing a resulting silence
And instead of using my fingers for typing ...
I have things I could be making .
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Owner of :
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1/2 - neo900 pre- "purchased" in 2013. Awaiting refund process.
3-nexus 5's : 1 with Lineage oreo 8.1 (intend stable "pie" when ready) , 1 with ̶Ubuntu Touch, 1 with Maru OS (intend maemo leste when ready)


PIMP MY N8X0
Idiot's Guide and a video walkthrough.
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=94294
THE LOST GRONMAYER CATALOGS
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...ight=gronmayer
N8X0 VIDEO ENCODING THE EASY WAY
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...ght=mediacoder
242gb ON N800
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=90634
THE PAIN-FREE MAEMO DEVELOPMENT LIVE DISTRO-ISO FOR THE NOOB TO THE PRO
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=95567
AFFORDABLE MASS PRODUCTION FOR MAEMO PARTS
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93325

Last edited by endsormeans; 2014-07-18 at 20:48.
 
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#42
What I have understood from your posts;
  • The base material that you work is here is horn, and the pieces are intricately carved, take a really long time to make and are very expensive;
  • There is a way to replicate an item done this way, by press-moulding it from material that is made from powdered horn and resin, and the resulting object of the said material is almost lookalike of the original artistic piece
  • it is supposedly easy to do this replication process
Probably I am a bit thick in the head now as I do not understand how the moulding process goes, do you take a casting from the original, and make a tool from that?
And further on, do we then need to order/subcontract the pieces made from some company that can cast the thing from the material provided to them...?
 

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#43
I think you're right. Good idea, but not enough interest to waste your time on. I visited this thread because I was anxious to see what you made, not because I was interested in taking part. My "Thanks" was in appreciation of the idea. If this gave you false hope, or was insulting in some way, I apologize.
As far as how it was presented: a shorter more succinct write up might have swayed those who were moderately interested. However, if you say that no one has shown significant interest, I think you were right in saying it wouldn't have made a difference.
 

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#44
[QUOTE=juiceme;1433316]What I have understood from your posts;

Ok to answer all possible questions in 1 post

Horn is different...thinner...less durable and greasier.
Yes it takes time..not as long as trying to input info into a machine to produce the same thing
More detailed and intricate?
The longer the work takes usually equates to detail or precision in a required end product. The simpler piece can be quicker ...yes.
What is created being a lookalike? replica? copy? or a reproduction? yeah I guess any of those words would do...but if you have an exact copy of something made from say 80% of the same material excepting say...20% being essentially "glue" to bind it together...I rather think the word "clone" is more apt. ....much better than "copy" or "replica" or any word like that...since methods of copy usually result in a inferior man-made result....since it is made with the same material as the original...just ...stronger...better...it is kinda like "reverse-engineering"..or "improving upon nature" rather than trying to make something purely man-made...like plastiks....or refining of metals aiming for a conception of artificial purity.

If what is needed is something robust and strong and lasting it can be done....with exquisite detail as well. As easily as something delicate. Costly? It can be in work hours...which can also mean tools wear and break....depending on the size of the master in antler...it may be a prized piece of antler...or easily acquired...that depends...the costs are insignificant compared to other methods.
An extreme example perhaps...since it is not often it happens...but during the making of the ncs sandwich part I destroyed 2 prime tools....and a few smaller ones..at a cost of roughly a couple hundred bucks....their lifespan was almost done anyway, they were living on borrowed time. Usually I replace 2 prime carving tools a year on average. Per pound ...the antler used to produce what I made on the market would have cost $50.
It took me little time to make yes....but that was because I spent a great great deal of time a forehand cutting, shaping, planing and leveling all my stock when I 1st got it ...so I could simply pluck whatever was called for and carve it at need. So the reality is tack another few days of actual work (for that specific needed material) that was done preemptively done in anticipation for whatever was needed. As well the part had to fit perfectly between two other parts...very tricky work.
Calculating all that ....the final cost ...the price tag of that master was still done faster than many could design and fabricate and at a cost that is almost pure labour.
The cost for any one person to afford for most works is affordable...

Not press-molding...not needed...a $80 gallon jug of liquid rubber (1998 price) (which simply dries on contact with exposure to air) will make 10-20-30-40 various sized molds for different projects...it depends on the size of the molds needed...it only takes a few thin layers of rubber per mold...3- 4 thin layers per mold is fine...5 if you wish to be certain you did enough. Stupid cheap.
You don't have to buy EVERYTHING at once...get your mold supplies 1st.
Spend the $80 grab a jug (remem that was 1998 prices...liq. rubber is prob far better now and cheaper)...spend a couple bucks on a whack of cheesecloth (10 bucks will get you plenty)...and a couple bucks ($10 at worst)spray can of release (stuff to make sure your "master" doesn't stick)...grab a n900 body...or jolla or whatever body...and go to town...a gallon could make...hmm idunno ...30....40 molds roughly.
I don't know what current prices you could get for the 2 part resins and addable colours...prob ALOT cheaper than it was 20 years ago...and it was almost cheap then...still...bulk is best...it stores well unmixed of course for a very long time...until needed...back in the day some hobby and specialty stores carried it...it was always more expensive than going to say a proper distributor ...also a little resin goes a long way....especially if you wish to make ALMOST exact replicas by mixing powdered material in the resin...you can save alot of resin... 1/2 and more for more pourings ...so it isn't just a material cost saving...replicas can be created that feel, look and are weighted like the original...not to mention you gain a great benefit of the strengths of the powdered additional material added...especially in such cases like antler.

Here is a place that specializes in just about every kind of resin product...I have no idea their pricing ...I'm sure whatever it is...there is cheaper and just as good elsewhere.
I'm sure they have sequential examples of what can be done...photos, processes, and videos as well. This was just a random click-and-pick. Don't just swallow whatever pricing they have ...Finding a better, cheaper supplier should be a breeze on any continent.
All told it is MASSIVELY...hugely significantly cheaper to do compared to say the costs for plastic or metal fabrication or assembly line in manufacturing plants computerized or non.

http://www.smooth-on.com/Urethane-Pl.../c5/index.html

Anyone can do this...honest.
Hell I'm sure everyone ..or almost everyone here has already done resin work a few dozen times over already...or more...or beyond count and you are a pro and don't know it.

Ever glued anything with Epoxy? hm? you know ...a 2-part Epoxy?
Many here have I'm sure...well that is a resin product...and when done properly..(not difficult) it glues whatever together ...binds it fabulously well
So ya it may be a little simpler a resin compound process...but it is pretty much the same stuff.
So few can say mixing glue is beyond them.
Any one can do this.
Most of you here already have.

This isn't a new cutting-edge method of affordable and easy-to-do-replication.
40+ years ago it left the den of industry.
It was costly and new and cutting-edge 40 years ago for enterprising people.
The materials and processes have been finely honed since then.
25 years ago it started becoming more affordable for artists and individuals interested in experimentation in reproduction...I started in the late 1980's early 1990's ...at that point the prices were starting to become more reasonable.
It isn't some new-fangled dubious "hope"
Today...it's a long-standing... credible...affordable...down-right dirt cheap method of accomplishing what is desired...copy.

Basically
1- A thin film of release is sprayed (to stop the liquid rubber from adhering to the master ) on the "master"..the liquid rubber is poured and spread over the "master" just thick enough to cover the master.
2- a layer of cheesecloth spread over the liquid rubber ...lightly tamped into the rubber...let it dry...repeat liquid rubber and cheesecloth process...a few more times....your rubber mold is now flexible and strong...with cheesecloth acting like layers of rebar...helping to hold it's form.
3- get your 2 part resin...get your added colouring...white , ivory, ancient bone...for say antler...veined white , black and grey for marble...whatever...(for the beginner I suggest just starting with resin and experimenting with colour 1st...adding powdered materials is slightly more advanced....once you have the knack of resin casting and getting your colors and timing just right...then play with adding materials...Please remember: it is a cheap enough a process to experiment with and try new ideas ) ....get your powdered antler...make the mix 50% resin 50% antler or stone or gem...make it 30% resin 70% antler or gem or stone...make it higher still even...it isn't a "look a like" at over 60% antler....(Also remember : some resin brands can allow very high "added foreign content" percentages compared to others...many resin brands or types are different...so one formulae is not universal...a little recipe "tweaking" will naturally be necessary if changing product brands) and...it is an almost perfect copy...without the natural flaws, weaknesses if any nor natural blemishes or tints....stronger ....better than the original.
If you want the look and feel to be synthetic? ..look like slick factory made plastic?...there are tints and colours...want it to look and feel like metal? Same thing...whatever is desired is possible ...with the exciting and wonderful world of resins.
4- take your "mix" before it "sets" and pour it into the mold. Wait.
Pop them out...wipe out the inside of mold....repeat mix ...repeat pour...repeat ...
5- A master in antler could take possibly countless mold processes (depending on the delicacy of the original. each mold could take hundreds and hundreds of resin "pourings" )
Also I found a single rubber mold could take roughly 500 resin castings before the wear and tear started to impact the mold just enough for me to stop using that mold...not bad for the couple bucks in rubber that particular mold cost)...and molds are good for a decade of even poor storage conditions before they need to be junked. So backup molds...let alone backup masters (or rather secondary masters) from the 1st pourings can be kept in reserve for emergencies.
6- Doing the molds correctly (it is hard to screw up rubber that simply dries on air contact) means we could have 10's and 10's and 10's ..dare I say it even hundreds of molds ..stupid-cheaply made...ready row on row...for resin to be mixed and walked down the rows and poured while walking and setting ....very. very very convenient
7- Contracting or sub-contracting? If anyone experienced cannot offer this service affordably or states there are costly difficulties ...is reaching for your wallet.
It shouldn't be hard to find an efficient, affordable, and competent individual or shop that will do production.
Failing all that...Better still ....you or anyone else here could learn and how to do this process in an afternoon...it isn't rocket science...
A small team could do this....
a couple of guys could do this....
I used to work at casting by myself...
it's not like an army is needed to do any of this either.
Workspace conditions? Optimally...preferably dust free....and decent ventilation...but no need to get fanatic about it...I never had a dust prob with my casts ...and you don't have to have the "latest" air scrubbers....just make sure you have open windows, doors, etc..available ...to allow fresh air in ...remember you are dealing with chemicals...harmless compared to many other chemicals ...but always remember the resin workers "rule of 3"
1- Ventilation
2- Ventilate
3- Vent
prudence ...not carelessness ...nor the other end of the stick ...fanatic over-compensation ....is necessary. Not enough ventilation?
Get a fan. Open more windows ...doors, garage doors...more fans..
it is neither something to trifle with, ignore, or opposite ....go ventilation crazy. I'm sure you will find whatever balance is needed for your own workspace.
What kind of shop is needed?
Any space could be considered for a workshop...with enough natural and/ or artificial ventilation and lighting.
A basement shop, with plenty of open windows would do,
A garage workshop would do,
A state-of-the-art shop would do...whatever works...
Any space can be utilized.
and it doesn't have to be a huge workspace...
wonders can be done in as small as a 10'x10' space with enough floor or bench or table surface to set all those beautiful molds on.

In less than 2 weeks 10's and 10's and 10's of multiple molds can be ready for pouring....
less than 2 weeks after that 100's of replicas could be done and cleaned and ready for distribution.

Forget trying to do it as a commercial enterprise even.
Do it as a community.
All this community needs is the guts it says it has...
4 individuals and 50 to 100 people interested.
1 person to co-ordinate.
1 person with 3d printer skills.
2 people to do the mold work from the 3d printed master and make copies in resin.

Brass tacks time.
Just guesstimate calculating...
Really ...REALLY...ROUGH GUESSTIMATE...here

Past shipping costs of the finished product to the individual....
100 interested community members slapping down $10-$20 should pay for materials and labour for 100 of the small...most basic part or thing that they want.....just....barely.
100 community members slapping down $40-$50 each...now we're doing 100 somethings ...almost or on par... with what the big boys can pump out.
100 community members slapping down more....$75- $100
Well...nobody...nowhere...could provide.... would have...the 100 replicas ..the 100 works of art you will have. ..for bloody dirt cheap.
Others would be paying thousands....
IF ...they could get ...
what YOU got.....
...at all.
Ever.

Yes more people interested means a lower consumer price tag ...but as well ...means more likely "miscasts" along the way...and so must be compensated with more casting material...as well base labour costs for casting don't diminish they just increase with more copies to be made. Hence...the obtuse logic of .."if 2 horses can get me to Rome in almost half the time of 1....and the time done by 4 horses is better still...then 10 000 horses mean instantaneous transport..." doesn't apply to a dramatically increased number of community members ( numbers which I'm highly skeptical of anyway..) expecting to pay pennies.
BUT... everyone is still getting something far cheaper than any other method of copy that currently exists.

The casting is quick and easy...
the mold work is quick and easy...
The important 1st step...
The master....(making the sound of an insuck of breath and then whistling)....THAT is important to get exactly right.
(But just as important as mixing the resin just right...too much of either prime resin part and the result is goopy...or the reverse... brittle...well kinda important anyway...the diff is I guess...that the cost in trial and error is insignificant with the resin....it's pretty cheap...just gotta get the mixes right ...after you got the "feel" for the mettle of the resin...you're a guru...and ya know your stuff and can pump out copies til the cows come home....bit of a drug doing resin work..once you got the resin-makin' bug...it's all you want to do...copy stuff...a wood look and texture..metal-look and feel...marble-look...zebra-look....textured -spotted- cow-hide -look ...isn't leopard print-look back in again? )

ahem,...anyway....The copies are based on the master ....so making sure the master is just right ...1st... is important....The computer work for the master to be designed and 3d printed will be the biggest expenditure ...in time... especially if there is complexity involved...that will be what takes the time....and will chew at the investment...I would not be surprised if it will be on par if not exceed the mold and casting labour costs either in time or wage.

Good luck , have fun and godspeed
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Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.~ Austin O'Malley

Owner of :
1-n770 (in retirement), 3-n800's , 3-n810's (still in daily use), 5-n900's ((3 are flawless, 1 has loose usb ( considering it for parts), 1 has no telephony (perfect for permanent set-up as mini-pc with one of my monitors))
1/2 - neo900 pre- "purchased" in 2013. Awaiting refund process.
3-nexus 5's : 1 with Lineage oreo 8.1 (intend stable "pie" when ready) , 1 with ̶Ubuntu Touch, 1 with Maru OS (intend maemo leste when ready)


PIMP MY N8X0
Idiot's Guide and a video walkthrough.
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=94294
THE LOST GRONMAYER CATALOGS
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...ight=gronmayer
N8X0 VIDEO ENCODING THE EASY WAY
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...ght=mediacoder
242gb ON N800
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=90634
THE PAIN-FREE MAEMO DEVELOPMENT LIVE DISTRO-ISO FOR THE NOOB TO THE PRO
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=95567
AFFORDABLE MASS PRODUCTION FOR MAEMO PARTS
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93325

Last edited by endsormeans; 2014-07-21 at 16:54.
 

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#45
At this moment I am upset to. I hate to read Novels.

Last edited by SHARP66; 2014-07-19 at 03:11.
 

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#46
Update addition to post #44

Completely forgot.
those 4 individuals that are needed?
1 coordinating?
1 with 3d printer skills?
and 2 people to do mold and cast work from the master?

You don't need the guy with 3d printer skills...
nor do you need expensive equipment...
nor the time and money taken...
Nor a master in antler for resin casts...
None of that to produce a master.

Hehe...forgot completely!
When I 1st started doing resin work...I didn't start (way-back-when) carving antler masters for the molds.
I used artist (sculptors) plasticine ...
Pretty good stuff...not cheap to buy (in bulk even) ...spent a few hundred on about 20 lbs of it...varying density.
But you can use it over and over and over and over again. Making it a very smart investment.
I still use mine decades later for a couple projects now and then...stuffs great.
Need a good eye and a good hand...a good dimensional artist or sculptor can make the master in the plast. and then do your mold and voila! copy ready.
I stopped very early in doing plast. masters tho ....
For my tastes I found it too delicate and too easy to mar the plasticine master...even in the handling of it to make the molds...and so opted for the detail certainty of antler and it's definitive ability to hold it's shape as well as other qualities.

Artist Plasticine is a viable option in a pinch though.
And there are other methods similar using foams that can be sculpted and cut...need someone capable though.

So technically.... fancy machines and high expenses are not needed at all ...
with multiple methods of master creation...mold creation and finally resin cast creation...
thereby eliminating a great deal of overhead spent on machines, specific skill-sets, materials, facilities and fabrication.

Update:
Current casting techniques include:

1- Textures (wood grain, stone, marble, metals, etc..) (cool)

2- The ability to add more diverse "foreign content" to resin mixes...
Bronze powder...Steel Powder...Brass...Aluminum...list goes on.
Enabling the addition of increased strengths over the original material with the aid of the resins yet maintaining the ability to fool the eye, the hand and metal detectors as well. Can't tell the difference between metals and resin with metals at all anymore.

3- Silicone mold material to pick up intricate detail..
CAREFUL now...it'll pick up FINGERPRINTS even! wow. (freaky)

4- Malleable epoxy putty (like bloody "Play-Doh" ) that can be shaped around a master and dries to create the mold (pretty freaky)

5- Fire resistant resins. (No need for added antler dust to the resin mix thereby reducing time and material costs) (very freaky)

6- Indestructible Resins.
No....REALLY!
Truly indestructible resins....
no need to worry about cases, bodies or parts breaking ever-ever again...No need to fear for your device when it slips from your hand (shy of exposed lcd screens)...or feel you stomach drop when you sit down and it's in your back pocket...or stepped on...or run over... (No need for added antler dust to the resin mix thereby reducing time and material costs) (uber-freaky)

And more way-cool stuff and techniques....

the materials and end product have advanced ...but the methods of application...of actually physically doing the casting haven't really changed much at all.
Very minute learning curve involved for me or any beginner for that matter.
So you don't have to pull out your PH.D's nor your slide-rule's guys.

Hell ...if ever was a method was created that was perfect for what is needed for this community. THIS is it.

Personally have little faith in speed or cost or end result using 3d printing and assembly manufacture.
By the time such end product is ready for shipping to the end-user the customer has moved on in interest and motivation to the latest technology...hence the creators are always fighting the wave of progress.

Personally I believe in the method, speed, end result and the cost in hand making masters and casting.
Personally ...I loved making copies by mold and resin casting ...but that's my opinion...

A few have voiced it is a wonderful idea ...but don't take their or my biased word for it.

Here:

A DIRECT application with a phone body (albeit an old phone ) pulled out of a fresh mold.



Our Community prides itself on being cutting-bleeding edge...
Why then think in archaic creation, production terms with machines and factories...what do you think the competition and other industry is doing?..

http://www.smooth-on.com/Prototyping...238/index.html

quote: " It All Starts With An Idea . . .
It all starts with an idea for an invention or product that you think has commercial potential. On your way to developing your idea, you will need a three dimensional physical representation before you go to production and that's where Smooth-On rubber, plastic and foam materials come in.

Smooth-On materials have been the tools used to make prototype models for over 60 years and are still instrumental today in bringing the world's most amazing products to market.

Who Uses Smooth-On Materials To Make Prototype Models?
Our prototyping client list includes Apple Computer, Dell Computer, NASA, SONY, General Motors, Ford Motor Company, The US Army, Boeing, Advanced Medical Devices, Martin Guitar, Disney, Bose, Moen and thousands of other industry leaders around the world.
" end-quote.

And that's just prototyping ...
Why not the entirety of the process of making copies as well?
I used to do it...
This isn't new people.
And ...
if the competition is doing this...
if EVERYONE else and their brother is doing this affordable method...
why aren't we?

Final Update:
Abandonment of mass reproduction goals.

Experimentation, creation of parts, protos and enhancements for devices ....continuing... for personal interest and use.
__________________
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Member since 2013,
Certifiable since 1972

Rosa sum ergo spam sum....
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Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.~ Austin O'Malley

Owner of :
1-n770 (in retirement), 3-n800's , 3-n810's (still in daily use), 5-n900's ((3 are flawless, 1 has loose usb ( considering it for parts), 1 has no telephony (perfect for permanent set-up as mini-pc with one of my monitors))
1/2 - neo900 pre- "purchased" in 2013. Awaiting refund process.
3-nexus 5's : 1 with Lineage oreo 8.1 (intend stable "pie" when ready) , 1 with ̶Ubuntu Touch, 1 with Maru OS (intend maemo leste when ready)


PIMP MY N8X0
Idiot's Guide and a video walkthrough.
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=94294
THE LOST GRONMAYER CATALOGS
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...ight=gronmayer
N8X0 VIDEO ENCODING THE EASY WAY
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...ght=mediacoder
242gb ON N800
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=90634
THE PAIN-FREE MAEMO DEVELOPMENT LIVE DISTRO-ISO FOR THE NOOB TO THE PRO
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=95567
AFFORDABLE MASS PRODUCTION FOR MAEMO PARTS
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93325

Last edited by endsormeans; 2014-09-02 at 21:14. Reason: merged updates
 

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