Symbian is a big pain. So if Nokia wants to compete with Samsung, HTC, LG and Sony-Ericsson which have Symbian devices (and WinMo devices) and Android devices, then Nokia might need to try Linux on some of its devices.

I am sure without a huge facelift of usability and inter-device compatibility Symbian^2 and Symbian^x is lost...

I want to ask you about Maemo backward compatibility and upgrades and to make a parallel between these 2 OSs here.

Yesterday I updated my n95 8G (Symbian s60) with the latest firmware using Nokia Updater (PC) and i lost all my contacts, java apps, paid n-gage games, paid ovi apps, only few s60 apps were re-installed.

Why iPhone users can install a new OS version without pain of loosing contacts and apps and Symbian cannot preserve contacts and apps during a simple patch update?!!?

Symbian has secret device APIs and this means INCOMPATIBILITY of the APPS between devices (and OS sub-versions). This is because of improper OS design - Symbian is lost.

Symbian has big compatibility and upgrade issues: Why s60 v3.2 is not compatible with s60 v3.1??!?... Even Nokia developed applications are different apps for v3.1, v3.2 and v5 - why it is not possible to have one application for all these versions? Because the Symbian OS versions are so, so different, a nightmare for any developers including Nokia's. They have different APIs, and different device APIs...
Poor design, lack of strategy...

Why then Nokia now still sells phones with s60 3.1 which is incompatible with latest version of s60 for non-touch instead of selling N95x with s60 v3.2? Or even sell N95x with s60 v5 and make the one of the best T9 smartphone to be touch-based?

s60 v3.0 is 2005
s60 v3.1 is 2006
s60 v3.2 is 2007
s60 v5 is Oct 2008
They are not backward compatible... applications which run on s60 v3.1 won't necessarly run on s60 v3.2

Why Nokia sells now devices with an OS released in 2006? Instead of seeling the hardware with the latest OS? Because the s60 OS is not backward compatible. The only exception is E71x runnig s60 v3.2 where the initial E71 runs s60 v3.1. But very wierd, E71 is still selling in parallel with E71x, why this mess for developers which have to juggle between these APIs?

Developers are complaining how hard is to develop for Symbian (native). Most of the applications for Symbian are Java based, even big titles in N-Gage gaming platform like "Age of Empires".

Can it be harder than this? Secret device APIs, incompatibility of APIs between OS subversions, nothing unified, nothing backward compatible...

Symbian^2 will be based on s60 v5.1 (early next year), Symbian^3 will include UIQ support (why?) and will be available later next year, and Symbian^4 will be based on QT (will be redesigned) and available Q1 2011 - basically isn't this too late? iPhone OS will be by then version 5 with very good backward compatibility, good upgrades and very good API and AppStore, the same Google Android...

How do you consider the Maemo strategy at Nokia now that Maemo 4 was based on GTK+, Maemo 5 is still based on GTK+ (hildon) but with QT supported "by the community" and Maemo 6 (to be released next year?) will drop official GTK+ support and it will be based on QT 4.6?

Windows is an awesome OS. It's light, fast and responsive. But all these "backward compatibility" patches and implants, that allow you to play Carmageddon and Doom on Windows 7 makes it fat, slow and sluggish on not so good hardware. Any questions?)
Open-source OS (OSOS?) is the best place do drop API's or even architectures. There's always somebody to help you with getting your software ready for new things. And this is great.

Existing Symbian s60 applications will not run on Symbian^2 !

Symbian Foundation doesn't plan OS upgrade.
They don't plan neither some applications compatibility on the platform, because there are, besides the "public API", some secret APIs: "Platform API" and "internal API" and the secret platform API CAN CHANGE between the releases!!!

For developers this means: mysey, mysery...

From the comments in the blog you linked above:
http://blog.symbian.org/2009/03/12/i...-release-plan/

Quoting David Wood:
> (The Symbian Platform makes a commitment to preserve
> public APIs in between releases. However, we reserve
> the right to change platform APIs.)

> A device like the N95-3 has a large amount of additional
> software in it. Some of that extra software may well
> use platform APIs, as well as public APIs.
> When the operating system moves to another version,
> the platform APIs can change (although the public
> ones remain fixed).

@David: the platform API is basically a private API, right ?

David Wood:
There will be material about the different API categories on the forthcoming new version of http://www.symbian.org. Here’s a quick explanation in the meantime: “public” APIs are expected to be maintained between releases; “platform APIs” are available for people creating software to be built into devices or to be included in the platform itself; “internal APIs” are for use only inside a single package.

Architengi;
You are speaking of Symbian S60 from your perspective with the Nokia N95-8GB correct? You are missing a bit...

...the OS there is older than what's in the iPhone (all versions)
...user data preservation is in Symbian S60 v3.2 and v5 which are both the current versions of the OS
...OSes should not guarantee backward compatibility unless you want Windows-like experiences with every device (high memory usage, legacy user interface conventions, etc.). Developers who are only coding for v3.1 of Symbian are way behind the times; and those coding just for v3.2 are not working with the best iteration of the OS either.

---
Maemo isn't the normal Nokia OS/developer story. Besides using different methods to interact with the developer and user communities, Maemo has allowed Nokia to move away from some of the antiquated coding methods that has made for quickly obselete OSes (one of the benefits of open source and agile-based software development).

That being said, Maemo 5 applications will not be comaptible with Maemo 4 unless the developer makes a different version for the older OS. Progress - in this respect - means that older devices will get left behind. This doesn't mean that Nokia should stop selling older devices. These older devices are not only mature (in terms of software and hardware), but they also offer a lower cost to entry for those looking to get something solid, but not pay the "early adopter tax."

---
Your issues with Symbian should be taken up with the Symbian Foundation. S60 is now their baby. And for all that you've nicely stated in the timeline, S60 v5 (^1) is pretty much a solo effort by all licensees. It will be S60 v5^3 that does the most towards making Symbian a malleable platform - ironically, just as much as Maemo 4/5 is now.

---
It is not the manufactuer's responsbility to make sure that you can upgrade to anything. The device and associated software you purchase as the intended service you'd use. They make no guarantees towards future use or even updates. To expect otherwise is to be a more immature consumer than those who just follow the latest trends and call themselves advanced.

Symbian's dying. The open source/Symbian Foundation move may have postponed the inevitable by 2-3 years (although it remains to be seen whether anyone apart from Nokia will produce devices with the "exponent" versions) but it doesn't change the fundamental reasons.

It was created over a decade ago when somebody managed to scare Nokia and Ericsson into believing that Microsoft would take over the smartphone OS market. Of course that never happened (Microsoft have failed consistently in anything other than the desktop OS market) and without competition Symbian pretty much rested on their laurels and coasted along with the lion's share of the device market.

Where they failed spectacularly is in attracting developer mindshare. Some of the reasons include an arcane C++ dialect, bad documentation, inconsistent ARM/x86 development environments, build and packaging systems that need to be taken out the back and shot, the "Symbian Signed" debacle and channels to market that grab 50% or more of the sale price.

As a result there are fewer apps available than even on Android. For a platform that's been around for 11 years and at its peak had 78% of the market share that's nothing sort of disastrous.

All IMHO of course.

Stop badmouthing Symbian, you snobs. As creaky and old fashioned and arcane as it is, Symbian is the only thing between you and Windows Mobile. And, unlike WinMobile, Symbian actually works. If Symbian dies, you will all end up with a choice between WinMobile and Android. Do you really want that to happen? =)

PS: I actually program for Symbian and can bitсh about it for hours. All things considered though, Symbian is not that bad to develop for, once you figure out what you should and should not do.

:-)

And OSX, and a twisted maze of little Linux-based phone platforms, all different (ALP, WebOS, MotoMAGX, LiMo, Openmoko and maybe maemo and moblin in the near future). Sounds exactly like the Unix wars of twenty years ago :-(

But IMHO the smartphone concept is a failure for a variety of reasons (form factor, operator meddling, extremely short lifecycles etc) which is why the Internet Tablet was such an exciting proposition.

rigth. as a user, i'm very, very content with symbian. a lot of applications (covers all i want on a mobile phone), nice, consistent UI, works great on non-touchscreen devices (which is essential for a really mobile OS)... no complaints. (except that i don't get firmware upgrades for my phone, but that's nokia, not symbian)

The tablet is nothing more than an instance of the whole smartphone concept though. Also, judging from iPhone success, it is all coming back to its roots, the PADD devices:

OK, sorry for not telling you my whole experience with Symbian.

I bought the N95 8G at Best Buy on a promotion - instead of $400 I paid last year $250 on a 3 year contract with $40/mnth plan. Without plan the N95 8G would cost $700. Anyways, because of the 3 yrs plan which costs me $480/year plus taxes, let's say $500/yr - the total cost is $1500 in 3 years for the plan and the subsidizing part of it for the cost of the phone. So total cost in 3 years is $1500 + $250 = $1750 the N95 phone + 3 yrs plan. Not cheap.

Does anybody think a $700 symbian s60 v3.1 phone unsubsidized is a correct price if I don't get firmware updates and if the Symbian just removes all my contacts, loose all my paid ovi apps, loose all my N-Gage and Java paid apps?

The problem with this phone is the Symbian OS problems on it started just after 1 year (exactly 1 year + 1 month), because otherwise I would been tried to get the warranty on it.

What happend with my Symbian s60 v3.1 phone?

The AppManager simply stopped working! This is like Control Panel in Windows dies, or more specifically the Add and Remove and configure applications dies.

Because AppManager simply put the message "Out of memory" whenever I pressed the Options left key (where is the menu to configure or remove the app) basically the App Manager was only a listing of installed applications like is the "Y-Tasks Apps&Tasks" application of DrJukka.com. The RAM memory of the system was about 50 MB free, the flash phone disk C: had lot of space. The problem with AppManager was it simply stopped working. After 1 month when I saw all I've tried to do to make it work didn't help, I re-installed the same firmaware I had on my N95 8G NAM (V 11.2.011 of 01-04-2008) because NO NEW firmware was vailable in more than an year and half. Keep in mind, this was the flagship Nokia phone before N97 comed out last month. So in one year and half, Nokia did not create any update on its flagship phone...

Ok, I updated the phone with that firmware and surprise: all the contacts are lost, all the paid apps are lost. Thank you, Symbian and Nokia!

For $700 you can buy 2 nice NetBooks, which do have service packs and nice OS update without loosing your contacts and paid apps. Or you can buy anything else in the phone market: iPhone, Pre, Google Android phones, which will not destroy everything on your phone during a simply PS patch installation.

Why the flagship phone Nokia N95 8G ($700) cannot get an upgrade from s60 v3.1 to s60 v3.2?

Why is deleting all the contacts and paid applications (which ovi don't let me install again, I have to pay once again) when you install a OS patch?

This is how Nokia and Symbian treats its customers? Be aware!