[RFC] On the roles of Maemo Council and Maemo e.V. - Page 11 - maemo.org

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	joerg_rw	2014-10-01 , 21:20
	Posts: 2,222 \| Thanked: 12,651 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3	#101

does that make any difference anymore?

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	Win7Mac	2014-10-01 , 21:49
	Community Council \| Posts: 664 \| Thanked: 1,648 times \| Joined on Apr 2012 @ Hamburg	#102

Originally Posted by joerg_rw

The trustee (eventually) receives assets from Nokia who want those assets to become property of Maemo Community...

As others already stated and despite you claiming otherwise, Nokia clearly wanted those assets to become property of HiFo, a legal entity. IF they wanted those assets to become property of whatever usergroup, I believe they would have simply fully FOSS'ed it, In case you have other valid information, please quote.

I see no valid point in comparing or pointing to Trust law which is quite unrelated and would assume community being mentally incapacitated or something. Nevertheless, you mentioning it, displays the missunderunderstanding you're perceiving:

In common law legal systems, a trust is a relationship whereby property is held by one party for the benefit of another.

This simply does not apply. Since Nokia left,
WE ARE ONE PARTY ONLY!
You refusing to honour this circumstance is ...lacking words...

BTW, a community is a social unit of any size that shares common values, Nothing less, nothing more, but not a legal entity.

Originally Posted by joerg_rw

This is where discrimination and abolishing/killing of the original maemo community starts.

No, only your antithetical activity is! And no matter how hard you try to bend possible interpretations of what the structure should be in your imagination (as council never was what you're trying to carry it to), you're the driving force here since both, board and council, seem to agree at the major points.
Need opponents? - Fine, have your very own infra for that, but don't spill bad vibes here please.

If you're unable to comply to the real life situation, you're in the wrong position and therefore your membership in council will be revoked unless you resign yourself in a formally correct way within next 6 days. I'm already getting impatient with this, actually.

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Current Maemo Community Council member

Last edited by Win7Mac; 2014-10-01 at 21:52.

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	joerg_rw	2014-10-01 , 21:58
	Posts: 2,222 \| Thanked: 12,651 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3	#103

Originally Posted by Win7Mac

If you're unable to comply to the real life situation, you're in the wrong position and therefore your membership in council will be revoked unless you resign yourself in a formally correct way within next 6 days. I'm already getting impatient with this, actually.

AYE MASTER! Err sorry, your HIGHNESS? Fuehrer? (now I get the 30pt "WE" in above post right, finally: pluralis majestatis)
does it need any more words to explain why I don't trust in THIS MCeV?
""improving democracy in maemo""[quote wn7mac] -- REALY NOW, EH??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...1JR-TgPfU#t=38

Last edited by joerg_rw; 2014-10-02 at 00:05.

Wikiwide	2014-10-01 , 22:46
Posts: 1,994 \| Thanked: 3,342 times \| Joined on Jun 2010 @ N900: Battery low. N950: torx 4 re-used once and fine; SIM port torn apart	#104

Quick message....
1. Turn Maemo (community) into a corporation, with GA on top and BoD(or whatever it is called in german) as executive body. In this scenario I don't see (or didn't get it) what exactly role has the community council. If GA is "the community" that tells BoD what to do, there is really no need for another entity doing the same. And how's that going to work legally. So maybe completely removing CC in this scenario is the sanest thing to do.

GA are ordinary members of e.V., right? And do they need to disclose their full names, to join e.V.? Do they need to pay membership fee aka Mitgliedsbeitrag ?

If yes to all three questions, then GA is not going to include all members of maemo.org; only a small number, larger than Community Council but still a subset of maemo.org members. So, as far as I understand it, HiFo board is replaced by e.V. Board, and CC is replaced by GA; GA elects Board, and anybody can join CC.

Originally Posted by joerg_rw

Probably Neo900 UG will set up a repository, wiki, forum etc where all community members interested in FPTF version of maemo can participate/contribute without any need to become member of any e.V. or pay monthly membership fees

Community members are not forced to be members of e.V. They can be registered on maemo.org without joining e.V. Right?
And there are other websites, such as my-maemo.com. Further splitting is not exactly helping, though I understand that having all eggs in one basket is not exactly safe.

[EDIT]
Where/when is/will be the web page for joining e.V.? For e.V. board elections?

Look forwards, not backwards. If HiFo board decided to hands everything over to e.V., no amount of arguing can force them to remain as HiFo.
[/EDIT]

Best wishes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Per aspera ad astra...

Last edited by Wikiwide; 2014-10-01 at 22:49. Reason: Adding

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	joerg_rw	2014-10-02 , 00:16
	Posts: 2,222 \| Thanked: 12,651 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3	#105

Originally Posted by Wikiwide

If HiFo board decided to hands everything over to e.V., no amount of arguing can force them to remain as HiFo.

And nobody can save their as*es when somebody gonna sue them for embezzlement. That's why I declared I'm officially not part of all this and oppose the whole possibly illegal plan. (the much-bashed "veto").
For "possibly illegal" see:
The trustee's duties are: [...]
* Be impartial among beneficiaries
* Not delegate
* Carry out the expressed terms of the trust instrument

Nieldk said he's stepping down for same reason. I disagree on stepping down being the right answer. Opposing yes, bailing out no. I even suspect that stepping down doesn't change your liability.

on a sidenote:

Originally Posted by Win7Mac

I see no valid point in comparing or pointing to Trust law which is quite unrelated and would assume community being mentally incapacitated or something.

somebody suggesting trusts are only meant for, and used by, the mentally disabled is probably a member of that group. Prolly confusing trust with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wardship
And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_(law) "A party is a person or group of persons that compose a single entity which can be identified as one for the purposes of the law." We clearly face at least two entities here: BoD and "community" (by whatever definition). The former has legal ownership, the latter is the one supposed to benefit from Nokia's "donation".
[intentionally with official signature]
-----[explicitly included to stay static-------------
Maemo Community Council member [2012-10, 2013-05, 2013-11, 2014-06 terms]
Hildon Foundation Council inaugural member.
MCe.V. foundation member

EX Hildon Foundation approved Maemo Administration Coordinator (stepped down due to bullying 2014-04-05)
aka "techstaff" - the guys who keep your infra running - Devotion to Duty http://xkcd.com/705/

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Last edited by joerg_rw; 2014-10-02 at 01:01.

	Estel	2014-10-02 , 00:46
	Posts: 5,028 \| Thanked: 8,613 times \| Joined on Mar 2011	#106

Originally Posted by Win7Mac

If you're unable to comply to the real life situation, you're in the wrong position and therefore your membership in council will be revoked unless you resign yourself in a formally correct way within next 6 days. I'm already getting impatient with this, actually.
[written to joerg]

Better late than never. Actually, this was overdue/in order for so long, that I will believe it, when I see it. After that, we can, I hope, end the habit of turning every discussion about formalities into 2/3 content being joerg vs. board/joerg vs. world ping-pong.

It's becoming completely incomprehensible for average Maemo Community member, even if only by the sheer amount of useless text written (Board repeat the same over and over, joerg doesn't listen, lives in different reality, and tries to enforce his little inner world on others...). Heck, even I, knowing those thing from inside out have problems keeping up with this "informatory overdose".

Thinking about it, maybe such "chaos" where no one gets what it's all about, is what your (former, I hope) "Councilor" colleague is hoping for - a reality, where one jumping, shaking hands, and shouting louder (and having time for all this nonsense, waaaaay too much spare time, as it seems) can grab power/support of others.

/Estel

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	joerg_rw	2014-10-02 , 01:07
	Posts: 2,222 \| Thanked: 12,651 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3	#107

Originally Posted by Estel

After that, we can, I hope, end the habit of turning every discussion about formalities into 2/3 content being joerg vs. board/joerg vs. world ping-pong.

Hardly. to stop me from posting what I think is the correct thing and not some "let's do it and f*ck the rules and laws" like you do, it would need to ban me from tmo as well, something that's more common to happen to you than to me ;-P. Maybe you missed it but (except last one) none of my posts been in from my role as council member. So what's your problem with me being council, eh? You will suffer me calling you a troll and liar even when council (or even HiFo or MCeV) goes so much out of their path to decide to exclude me from council (I'm only waiting for that to prove something. Some of the readers might know what i'm talking about)
I'm actually just laughing at you since I already gave up on maemo community (the truly great thing this been once), since you managed to ruin it. I'm just watching and providing material you can expose your true rotten mindset against. I got nothing to lose. I'm just offering my lawyers a way to earn truckloads of money from you when you spread lies about me that could damage my professional reputation (probably the quite reasonable reason for chemist to swiftly edit his post and delete his nonsense about me)

BR
jOERG
(private posting)

Last edited by joerg_rw; 2014-10-02 at 01:23.

	woody14619	2014-10-02 , 01:16
	Posts: 1,455 \| Thanked: 3,309 times \| Joined on Dec 2009 @ Rochester, NY	#108

Apparently I missed this. Sorry wicket, for the late reply.

Originally Posted by wicket

It looks like you've misinterpreted the LGPL.

See here for a summary of the licence and note the "Disclose Source" part under the "Must" section.

I'm afraid that the source you're using has sacrificed conciseness for brevity. In an effort to not be "too long to read", they've chosen their wording poorly, giving a vague answer where a precise one is needed.

If you look at the wiki page for LGPL, and the terms themselves, it clearly states that there are several instances where LGPL code can be bundled into and with commercial products, and the resultant code does NOT need to be made public. It also states one can put copyright and other such restrictions on the resultant work, so long as it includes the proper text showing it contains LGPL libraries. See section 5 & 6 in particular for exact terms.

That is, in fact, the whole reason LGPL exists: To allow for commercial, non-public use of some parts of the Gnu project. You can read the FSF reasoning on why they created the LGPL here, and why they now advise against using it.

The part that requires you release source is if you modify the base library and want to re-distribute it as a separate thing. Then you have to supply code of the changes you made to the library for that purpose. Things like "plugin modules" (Karma), themes, forms, and code that interfaces with the library but are not part of it, are all exempt under LGPL.

Reality is that MidGard was put under LGPL for a reason, one which it's co-creator made very clear on the wiki page for MidGard itself. They placed it under LGPL so that they could turn around and create custom CM sites to sell to others without them having to worry about the legal ownership issues.

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	joerg_rw	2014-10-02 , 01:33
	Posts: 2,222 \| Thanked: 12,651 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3	#109

Originally Posted by woody14619

If you look at the wiki page for LGPL, and the terms themselves, it clearly states that there are several instances where LGPL code can be bundled into and with commercial products, and the resultant code does NOT need to be made public. It also states one can put copyright and other such restrictions on the resultant work, so long as it includes the proper text showing it contains LGPL libraries. See section 5 & 6 in particular for exact terms.

fine, now you're on same page as rest of us. It simply doesn't matter for the rest of the software if the LGPL part is under LGPL or any other license. LGPL creates a license for the FOSS part, NOT for the software linking in that FOSS part. You however started arguing about midgard being LGPL and THUS Nokia could publish closed blobs. Which is kinda true for a "otherwise they couldn't" but nobody ever doubted that Nokia had the right to publish or sell or nuke or eat that stuff. It's about the community/general-public being allowed to use that stuff without Nokia's consent, which for sure is true for midgard, and according to my POV also is true for the PHP scripts techstaff wrote to replace the Nemein scripts. About logos, please refer one of my previous posts which clearly shows they are CC and not proprietary like you claimed they were. For the rest see definition of "content" and "skin" in wiki, I lnked to it in one of my previous posts. Nobody said content=executable-code

Last edited by joerg_rw; 2014-10-02 at 01:35.

	woody14619	2014-10-02 , 01:43
	Posts: 1,455 \| Thanked: 3,309 times \| Joined on Dec 2009 @ Rochester, NY	#110

Originally Posted by joerg_rw

excuse me when I stop reading

Excuse me if I stop replying then... Communication is bi-directional. You're only interested in pushing your point, not trying to understand the points of others. Nothing makes this more clear that the above statement.

Originally Posted by joerg_rw

You all the time do exactly this sneaky twisting of words. Or you take statements out of context and put them into a completely different, then go on tedious length about that false context and conclusions thereof.

Says the man claiming I'm an aircraft mechanic.

Sorry, but the biggest perpetrator of this is you. You (intentionally or not) hear what you want to hear, and once heard can not be convinced that you may have misinterpreted something, or missed an important piece of context.

Case in point: The idea of membership dues. There was a discussion on TMO about how to keep the GA roster from becoming stale, like the garage account list is now. (~1,000 actual active users with ~60,000 accounts showing.) Because that presents problems with quorum and several other issues in legal groups. One idea (of many) was to charge some tiny amount, like 1€ per year. Those going away would likely stop the payment, because people pay attention to money, and could be dropped from the roles as they diverge from the community. (This was not a "pay per vote" issue, more of a role-call issue.)

Somehow you read that as it's all been decided, and post out:

Originally Posted by joerg_rw

indeed it is, when you want to turn a FOSS community of (depending on the way you count) ~6000 to ~100,000 members into a "community" of a few dozen appointed by a governing entity (=board **) ), paying membership fees, not concerned about their anonymity, possibly European *) members of a club.

Do you see this? Do you see how you are doing the very thing you accuse me of? Taking things "out of context, and put them into a completely different, then go on tedious length about that false context and conclusions thereof." Yet to you, this is justified when you do it.

As for the rest: You said you didn't, then admit you did. You "twist my words" again, claiming I said things I did not, even messing that up (it's LGPL, not GPL, there's a significant difference). And again, you stop listening.... So I stop replying.

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