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atlochowski	2020-11-09 , 10:13
Posts: 207 \| Thanked: 759 times \| Joined on Dec 2014 @ Poland	#11

Originally Posted by peterleinchen

Sorry in advance for my negativity.

The way I have got to know Jolla as a company is not the best.
(just two latest examples: a) breaking overlay compatibility,

Yes, but after that they helped Coderus to solve problem with overlay.

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	peterleinchen	2020-11-09 , 10:53
	Posts: 4,117 \| Thanked: 8,901 times \| Joined on Aug 2010 @ Ruhrgebiet, Germany	#12

Originally Posted by atlochowski

Yes, but after that they helped Coderus to solve problem with overlay.

First: after! (a lot of devices 'crashed/reflashed', ya know)
Second: orly? Then I must have missed this. Where and when, do you have a link, please?

--
but we are derailing this thread here, sorry for the noise.

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atlochowski	2020-11-09 , 13:12
Posts: 207 \| Thanked: 759 times \| Joined on Dec 2014 @ Poland	#13

Originally Posted by peterleinchen

First: after! (a lot of devices 'crashed/reflashed', ya know)
Second: orly? Then I must have missed this. Where and when, do you have a link, please?

--
but we are derailing this thread here, sorry for the noise.

Ad Second. They suggested him to use this https://git.sailfishos.org/mer-core/...27801261_23_39

And here is the result:
https://github.com/CODeRUS/harbour-s...e41d9b228cb011

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	olf	2020-11-09 , 20:11
	Posts: 304 \| Thanked: 1,246 times \| Joined on Aug 2015	#14

Dear @rinigus,

Originally Posted by rinigus

[...]
Re FSO: yes, [..]

O.K.

Originally Posted by rinigus

Re GPL and APIs: As you have to link to Qt, I expect that GPL will infect your code through it. [...]

~~No, all relevant~~Most Qt-libraries are licensed LGPL (v3 nowadays) or commercially (at the customer's choice), so any software can link to these libraries (regardless if FLOSS or not).

@zeta already hinted that in

Originally Posted by Zeta

[...] Qt is not only GPLv3, but also LGPLv3 for most of its modules: https://www.qt.io/product/features#js-6-3

, but there is no choice to make ("also") between LGPL and GPL, only between a FLOSS license (a specific ?GPLvX one) and their commercial one (this is badly phrased multiple times at their licensing web pages):
Digia / "The Qt company" chooses the licenses for their software components very well (primarily for their own goals), i.e. LGPL for all basic libraries (which they want to be used easily by everyone) and GPL for a few components, which are not essential and for which they want to restrict their usage.
They seem to have "fun playing licensing" at premier league level (and plenty of success with it), in contrast to Jolla, which seems to be driven by fear and an avoidance strategy.

Specifically see

overview of Qt licensing: https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/licensing.html
specifics of Qt's FLOSS licensing: https://www.qt.io/faq/tag/qt-open-source-licensing
IMO the most relevant point there is "Why do you have an agreement with KDE about your licensing? What[...]’s the history of Qt and KDE?".
at https://www.qt.io/product/features the FLOSS-license of every software component can be looked up, which is part of Qt.
side note: Notice, how consciously "The Qt company" also chooses software they use for and redistribute with Qt!
Most of it is under a permissive FLOSS license ("BSD-/MIT-/Apache-style"), LGPL or GPL with linking exception (e.g., Bluez), so it cannot interfere with their commercial licensing. For details, see https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/licenses-used-in-qt.html

Last edited by olf; 2020-11-10 at 23:46. Reason: Typo

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rinigus	2020-11-10 , 07:04
Posts: 1,414 \| Thanked: 7,547 times \| Joined on Aug 2016 @ Estonia	#15

Dear @olf:

going through https://www.qt.io/product/features#js-6-3 (LGPLv3), I can see that Qt Wayland Compositor is not compatible with it and requires GPLv3 (or "commercial"). Lipstick runs on it, but fortunately it is open-source. Not sure of the rest of the composer.

Qt Wayland is also used by Flatpak UI, but that is open source.

LGPLv3 has Tivoization/DRM clauses (referred to in Qt FAQ) which maybe an issue for Jolla as well.

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	nonsuch	2020-11-10 , 21:23
	Posts: 584 \| Thanked: 1,550 times \| Joined on Sep 2019	#16

Originally Posted by olf

Security
It is unmaintained upstream, for years in case of Qt.

I was going to say "It's (only) a UI toolkit!" - But then I seem to remember that Qt has modules that provide direct access to the internet? I guess that's where security comes in.

Originally Posted by olf

Functionality
Well, I think @rinigus and others could write long lists of functions in newer Qt versions, which would make programming for it much easier, plus the loss of interoperability of software not specifically for SailfishOS, because all other Linux distributions are on a way newer Qt.

Yes, this I expected and understand.

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	olf	2020-11-10 , 23:01
	Posts: 304 \| Thanked: 1,246 times \| Joined on Aug 2015	#17

Originally Posted by rinigus

going through https://www.qt.io/product/features#js-6-3 (LGPLv3), I can see that Qt Wayland Compositor is not compatible with it and requires GPLv3 (or "commercial").

Good catch, thanks!
I went through the list and thought, "really everything essential is LGPL", but missed Qt Wayland Compositor. So this is only the case under X11, which is useless on SailfishOS and becomes less and less relevant on other Linux distributions.

Originally Posted by rinigus

Lipstick runs on it, but fortunately it is open-source. Not sure of the rest of the composer.

Let us assume it all is (also because I want to limit our research on this at some point), so rather the v3 (vs. v2 up to and including Qt 5.6) poses an issue for Jolla here, than the GPL (vs. LGPL) specifically for Qt Wayland Compositor.

Edit / side note: And while Jolla can do little to change the licensing situation of third party components (trying to negotiate with "The Qt company" is likely futile; and swapping components, like GNU-utilities -> Busybox, is impossible for Qt), but can alter the licenses of their own components at their own will.

Originally Posted by rinigus

LGPLv3 has Tivoization/DRM clauses (referred to in Qt FAQ) which maybe an issue for Jolla as well.

It likely is, as denoted in the lengthy "side note" WRT *GPLv3 of my original post here.

P.S.: The longer we discuss this, the clearer it becomes that there is no easy way out of this for Jolla, if there is any viable path for them through Ex-Digia's licensing thicket at all.
But our starting point was that leaving SailfishOS "stuck" at Qt 5.6 is not a viable path for SailfishOS and its ecosystem, either!
:\

Last edited by olf; 2020-11-16 at 15:36. Reason: Add "edit / side note"

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	peterleinchen	2020-11-15 , 14:17
	Posts: 4,117 \| Thanked: 8,901 times \| Joined on Aug 2010 @ Ruhrgebiet, Germany	#18

Not exactly the same topic but somehow related ?
https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/silic...urce-code/3561

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	javispedro	2020-11-28 , 11:10
	Posts: 2,355 \| Thanked: 5,249 times \| Joined on Jan 2009 @ Barcelona	#19

https://together.jolla.com/question/...embrace-gplv3/

The current Jolla is even worse than the Jolla of the past. It's clear to me the Maemo people were right and I was wrong. Sorry everyone I discussed with.

Originally Posted by olf

This renders *GPLv3 licensed software unsuitable for devices which are not user-controlled, e.g. a "presentation point" (in a museum etc.)

This looks super dubious. Any source?

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	olf	2021-03-23 , 22:04
	Posts: 304 \| Thanked: 1,246 times \| Joined on Aug 2015	#20

Originally Posted by javispedro

[...]
This looks super dubious. Any source?

As explained, the GPL v3.
Its "core innovation", the anti-TiVo clause in combination with its consistent (-ly idiotic) "user" wording!
As intended, *GPLv3 software must be alterable by a user, for which cryptographic (and any other) mechanisms must be circumventable by a user.

HTH