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Posts: 50 | Thanked: 258 times | Joined on Sep 2010
#101
you need to make it very clear to paypal that paypal specificly is withholding the funds that you contracted them to transfer to neo900UG not that neo900 is doing anything wrong

maybe:

hello,

you seem to be misunderstanding me. it is paypay specifically i have a dispute with. i contracted you "paypal" to transfer $VALUE to neo900UG but infact you "paypal" are withholding a portion of that as security. i have not instructed you to do this, and as this funding is to be used for research and devlopment for a device that has no guarentee of being completed, withholding prevents neo900UG from doing the needed research and devlopment which the funds are intended to assist in.

so could you "paypal" please release all the funds immedeatly, and completly, unwithholding to the neo900UG as i contracted you "paypal" to do.

Thank you,
$FULL NAME

Last edited by chainsawbike; 2015-10-15 at 08:50. Reason: updated wording to be more specific
 

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#102
Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post

Als Bank sind wir dazu verpflichtet, Sicherheiten gegen Zahlungsausfallrisiken aufzubauen
As a bank they have no business playing mafia and deciding who gets what. They are just a f*cking payment processor with an ego. If this is legal then we need some kind of "banking neutrality" rule. Call the EU, quick!

I'm no expert in banking and no expert in German bureaucracy, but I'm sure the Bankenaufsicht (www.bafin.de) would like to hear about such practices.

To those who have received a reply from Paypal: please reply back and explain it again, like in kindergarten-speak: the money is on their account but they can't touch it. That's the problem. The "dispute", if any, is not against Neo900 but against Paypal.

[EDIT] Didn't see @chainsawbike's post. Nice!
 

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#103
Originally Posted by chainsawbike View Post
it is paypay specifically i have a dispute with.
Originally Posted by reinob View Post
The "dispute", if any, is not against Neo900 but against Paypal.
Good catch! The mere thought of that ever happening had most likely never even begun to speculate about the merest possibility of crossing their mind and they have no plans for how to act in such a situation.
 

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#104
You've 180 days after the date of the payment to open a dispute.
This in turn clearly means that 180 days after your payment, PayPal must make the funds available to us.

Thanks for providing the mail citation

/j
 

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#105
daily update: Lawyer informed me that PP informed her that the FAX arrived (4 days ago, with deadline for answer of today) and is now getting forwarded to PP's legal department. Let's see. Please keep sending mails to them, I think it helps a lot.

/j
 

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#106
Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post
This in turn clearly means that 180 days after your payment, PayPal must make the funds available to us.
It's not that easy. There's plenty of situations were (x or (not x)) is not true.

But in this case it was easier to anticipate: alice pays to bob, via mallory. That makes three parties in my book, so the money is either in the hands of alice, of bob, or of mallory.
 

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#107
Purpose and risks of payments

To make sure we're all on the same page regarding the role and purpose
of the various payments in this project, we'd like to re-state and
summarize them:


Donations: the first financing round consisted of the collection of
donations, to pay for the costs of initial prototype development and
to determine whether the level of community interest was sufficient to
warrant developing the Neo900 in earnest.

For this purpose, donations of EUR 100 or more were informally counted
as an intent of later obtaining a complete device. As far as price
calculations are concerned, donations or EUR 100 or more are
technically considered as if they were loans.


Down payments: further financing towards completion of R&D and the
purchase of materials for production. The down payments let us plan
the number of units to produce - and thus the materials we have to
source - as well providing the funds for the sourcing.

Due to some of the materials being difficult to source and sometimes
having very long lead times, this sourcing has to begin a considerable
amount of time before the projected beginning of production, and it is
generally necessary to be able to execute purchases shortly after
quotes have been obtained. It is standard practice in industry that
such purchases are paid for in advance.

Therefore, the project needs to have access to funds well before
development has completed, with all the risks this entails. This phase
is therefore similar to that of projects crowdfunded at an early
development stage, i.e., that the payments received by the project are
to serve the specific agreed-upon purpose, but that there are still
considerable risks involved that can alter the outcome of the project
or even cause its demise. These risks are shared by both the project
supporters (potential loss of their payments) and the people
developing the product (potential loss of income and intangibles).

We have listed these possible risks in detail in the "terms and
conditions" presented in the Neo900 shop at the time of making down
payments:
https://my.neo900.org/index.php?id_c...content_only=1


Final payment: the down payments only cover part of the expected
total cost of the project, as detailed here:
https://neo900.org/estimate

We therefore plan a third and final financing phase when the project
is ready to move to production, and it is time to purchase the
remaining materials, to pay for the production services, and to set up
the logistics for distribution.

This will be a low-risk phase, similar to that of projects that seek
crowdfunding at a very mature development stage.

The final payment will be the difference between the total cost of the
selected product(s) (i.e., NeoN or Neo900, in the respective
configuration) and the total of the payments made that far, including
the loan-like interest we calculate on the original donation.

The reason for separating the final payment from the down payments is
mainly that we cannot accurately predict the final cost before
completing R&D and subsequently obtaining quotes for the remaining
steps. An accurate cost figure is necessary because this
community-driven project operates with essentially no profit margin
and therefore cannot accommodate unexpected budget excursions.


We hope to have communicated all these points with sufficient clarity
in the past, and that the expectations of our supporters are thus in
line with the above.

If you have any questions or concerns, please post here or contact us
at contact@neo900.org

- Werner (on behalf of the Neo900 team)
 

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#108
All this hoobalooba with paypal makes me happy I transferred my share of the pile via standard-oldfashioned-and-regulated Bank Transfer.
 

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#109
Call you happy to be inside SEPA with same currency.
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#110
Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post
ps.: we wouldn't mind if you keep contact@neo900 .org in BCC of any such mail
I tried, but I got:

----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
/home/werner/mail-backup/werner
(reason: Service unavailable)
(expanded from: <xxxx>)

----- Transcript of session follows -----
554 5.0.0 mailfile: *file*: child died on signal 25
554 5.0.0 Service unavailable
 

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