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quipper8	2010-05-25 , 17:57
Posts: 1,096 \| Thanked: 760 times \| Joined on Dec 2008	#31

I have been reading some of the meego meeting irc logs that are online, although it still appears most discussion is still closed and takes place internally on #meego-arm, and it appears that although the meego team does have contacts inside Nokia to get some things, there is no telling how long that cooperation will last.

In one specific example, the battery management entity is attempting to be added to meego and is not behaving properly. Nokia provided BME does not provide any debug output whatsoever. A contact attempt will be made to nokia for at least a debug version if not source code. Maybe they got it, maybe not, we don't know.

This same dance is going to have to be carried out for every bit of closed driver-ness, which likely includes opengl, audio, BT, WLAN, and on and on.

The nokia cooperation is only going to last until the first meego hardware prototypes are available that use different drivers and there will be noone to go to anymore for n900 driver stuff.

I don't doubt that there will be a open meego + a bunch of closed blobs from nokia you can install on an n900, but I HIGHLY doubt it will be anything approaching a consumer device or Fremantle.

The meego team is just using the n900 for reference right now because that is all there is. it is not because of some kind of benevolence toward users or the n900 hardware. Once there is new hardware, I don't think we will see meego team trying to merge sh*t into meego kernel for n900 any longer, and even if they tried to, the intel people would likely shoot it down immediately. So, enjoy your n900 for the time being, but get ready to pony up for the next device.

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	thefoxtrot	2010-05-25 , 18:00
	Posts: 144 \| Thanked: 32 times \| Joined on Jan 2010 @ Cali	#32

[Delete my post please]

Last edited by thefoxtrot; 2010-05-25 at 21:16.

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geohsia	2010-05-25 , 18:04
Posts: 515 \| Thanked: 259 times \| Joined on Jan 2010	#33

I think we need to be clear about what is being provided in the Meego Community edition for the N900.

So far from the various threads all we have is that Meego will run on the N900 through the community. Great, Linux boots.

As far as we are concerned NO thread thus far as of today has made any commitment to Meego UX components which means you can't make phone calls, browse the web, anything, no UI, nada.

What we do know will work on this Meego OS is likely QT, which means you can manually load QT based apps, but as of now NO commitment to any of the things we actually use.

Now, could that change? Of course. Could Nokia and 3rd party developers release community versions of the browser (with Flash), Skype and OVI maps? Sure. But what is being talked about right now in terms of MeeGo on the N900 does NOT include the Meego UX (I'm guessing user experience) so for most people this will be completely useless.

I don't want to be a naysayer but I want people to have the proper expectation. I think like me when many people heard MeeGo on N900 supported by the community they thought it meant an unsupported but FUNCTIONAL (besides QT) version of MeeGo. I don't think that is what is being committed to at this point.

I hope I am wrong.

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	Stskeeps	2010-05-25 , 18:08
	Posts: 1,671 \| Thanked: 11,478 times \| Joined on Jun 2008 @ Warsaw, Poland	#34

Originally Posted by quipper8

I have been reading some of the meego meeting irc logs that are online, although it still appears most discussion is still closed and takes place internally on #meego-arm, and it appears that although the meego team does have contacts inside Nokia to get some things, there is no telling how long that cooperation will last.

What? Anyone can join #meego-arm on freenode, there's like 43 people there and we're only 14 or so in the team

It is even publically logged, if you go to the channel to get the URL in topic. We do have contacts inside Nokia, because, well, we have team members from Nokia doing their part and sometimes reaching out to the people with the right knowledge is needed. Check out http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Meetings

In one specific example, the battery management entity is attempting to be added to meego and is not behaving properly. Nokia provided BME does not provide any debug output whatsoever. A contact attempt will be made to nokia for at least a debug version if not source code. Maybe they got it, maybe not, we don't know.

Specifically it said we are going to make a debug version in the internal OBS. This is not the same as a 'contact attempt', it's one of the people with access to internal OBS making this change to a packaging flag.

This same dance is going to have to be carried out for every bit of closed driver-ness, which likely includes opengl, audio, BT, WLAN, and on and on.

The nokia cooperation is only going to last until the first meego
hardware prototypes are available that use different drivers and there will be noone to go to anymore for n900 driver stuff.

No, the dance is just actually doing what's needed to be done. Most team members have the right access to get the job done and know who to contact.

The meego team is just using the n900 for reference right now because that is all there is. it is not because of some kind of benevolence toward users or the n900 hardware. Once there is new hardware, I don't think we will see meego team trying to merge sh*t into meego kernel for n900 any longer, and even if they tried to, the intel people would likely shoot it down immediately. So, enjoy your n900 for the time being, but get ready to pony up for the next device.

I think you're being too paranoid and exaggerating things. Come spend a day with us in the IRC channel and watch our work. It is a new kind of work which you might not know too well - open development. If this was the old days, we wouldn't even be seeing an updated kernel on the N900. This is new times.

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scifi.guy	2010-05-25 , 18:26
Posts: 195 \| Thanked: 108 times \| Joined on Feb 2010 @ SF Bay Area, United States	#35

Originally Posted by Stskeeps

What? Anyone can join #meego-arm on freenode, there's like 43 people there and we're only 14 or so in the team It is even publically logged, if you go to the channel to get the URL in topic. We do have contacts inside Nokia, because, well, we have team members from Nokia doing their part and sometimes reaching out to the people with the right knowledge is needed. Check out http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Meetings

Not to scandalize or start a whole flame war but from the meeting logs and the "general" perception for me is that Intel is giving you (Nokia) a raw deal with this whole Meego thing. Like for example, not allowing your changes to be included upstream in the last minute (which is a good thing) while including their own changes without any issues. I don't even like to bring up the Deb vs RPM debate.

Now that Nokia does not "officially" support N900 Meego implementation, do you have enough pull with Intel to get things done?

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	Stskeeps	2010-05-25 , 18:33
	Posts: 1,671 \| Thanked: 11,478 times \| Joined on Jun 2008 @ Warsaw, Poland	#36

Originally Posted by scifi.guy

Not to scandalize or start a whole flame war but from the meeting logs and the "general" perception for me is that Intel is giving you (Nokia) a raw deal with this whole Meego thing. Like for example, not allowing your changes to be included upstream in the last minute (which is a good thing) while including their own changes without any issues. I don't even like to bring up the Deb vs RPM debate.

Now that Nokia does not "officially" support N900 Meego implementation, do you have enough pull with Intel to get things done?

Any first collaboration is hard between different work cultures and processes and in stressful situations things are bound to be tense. Intel did not include their own changes without issues, read further in the log - theirs got declined as well. We were a bit late to the party as we switched kernel version and this harmed us a bit.

After all this, I would have no difficulty sitting down and having a drink with the release guys. They're just doing their jobs and trying to find solutions.

Also, it isn't about Nokia vs Intel, we all sit somewhere in the MeeGo project. Once the project structure is published, things are clearer, process is visible etc.

Deb vs RPM I'm not going to start - I wrote debs before and I love rpms now. Without brainwashing

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quipper8	2010-05-25 , 18:42
Posts: 1,096 \| Thanked: 760 times \| Joined on Dec 2008	#37

I don't think i am being paranoid, just realistic. The n900 is not a meego target for NOKIA, period. It is enjoying some love from some members of meego team right now because the first hardware for a meego device *might* share a good bit with what the n900 has, but I doubt if the meego team even knows that or not, and the n900 is a good testing device for now for Nokia and 3rd party meego UX stuff.

I am not trying to belittle meego team work at all, it is a gargantuan task that requires a lot of sustained focus, but that work's function is NOT too provide a meego for n900, or is it? I think it is primarily to help nokia get stuff they need into a meego kernel going forward for NEW devices.

I wish you all the luck, but I see the n900 hardware adaptation effort as a hobby subteam of the general meego direction at best and will find the same problems and fate as Mer

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scifi.guy	2010-05-25 , 18:43
Posts: 195 \| Thanked: 108 times \| Joined on Feb 2010 @ SF Bay Area, United States	#38

Thanks Stskeeps.

I know you guys are working hard for the May release. Hope it will be successful and you guys get some well deserved break. Best of luck.

I hope Meego (Nokia and Intel) follow your (Meego-ARM team's) lead in being and working in the open.

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Sarcastic_Twit	2010-05-25 , 18:48
Posts: 15 \| Thanked: 10 times \| Joined on May 2010	#39

Originally Posted by mobiledivide

While the thread about "No official Meego Release" gets a thousand views and a ton of comments, this thread about a Meego/Harmattan?maemo 6 hacker edition which answers all the questions gets no looks even after Qgil links it. Sometimes I shake my head at this forum, I really wish for the days when these tablets were for enthusiasts and not end users.

Pretty sure those days are coming back, real soon.