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petur is offline petur
2014-05-27 , 15:26
Posts: 650 | Thanked: 497 times | Joined on Oct 2008 @ Ghent, Belgium
#11
For what it's worth I used to use FAM exclusively and while I can't prove it to be 100% sure, my n900 got very messed up and ended up not booting properly.
Since then I use HAM all the time, with zero issues seen.
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sixwheeledbeast is offline sixwheeledbeast
2014-05-28 , 11:35
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#12
Originally Posted by peterleinchen View Post
ORLY? As a curious cat: could you give an example(s)?

Take the Ovi applications like Offscreen Candle for example they are user/hidden. They can only be removed via apt however HAM can install/upgrade and remove them. Not like we are ever going to get any updates on there anyway.

http://doc.qt.digia.com/qtcreator-2....blish-ovi.html

http://developer.nokia.com/community...ovi-repository

Originally Posted by Estel View Post
Thanks a lot for example. Could you explain what causes the bootloop? I tried to reproduce it, but couldn't get into loophole (sic!)
That particular version of fcamera had drivers that were incompatible with kernel-power at the time. This was later fixed (either in one or both packages I am not sure).

Originally Posted by Estel View Post
What exactly is the difference causing such mess? What "flag" (or whatever) HAM recognizes, that apt-get doesn't and why the hell we need to depend on obscurity of HAM?
As per freemangordon, domains.

Originally Posted by Estel View Post
Because, AIUI, main goal of future for Maemo (FreEmantle) - in this or any other, hypothetical device - seems to be "more upstream, less obscure things that doesn't work anywhere else".
HAM source is open there is no reason why this can't be used upstream.

Originally Posted by Estel View Post
I don't understand this example. Have you dissected what is wrong? Why apt-get doesn't show upgrade for bander, and HAM does? I'm using the same programs, and never run into such weirdo, using apt (via frontend or not).
All back to domains again.
I have manually installed bander, however, HAM has detected that I should have installed this package via the "approved" repository therefore, wished to "fix" my system by installing the "approved" version. This for example would work like fmg says with an extras package having lower priority over a system package, apt-get will just compare-versions as per Debian packaging rules.

Also it seems HAM realises I don't need "n900-fmtx-enabler", apt and FAM wish to install it every time.

Originally Posted by freemangordon View Post
And in addition FAM is unmaintained - the fact that a long standing "bug" like autoremove being checked by default is still not fixed means that this software is not fit for the purpose of being a distribution package manager. IMO.
Agreed. The reason this whole thread started over on charmap in the first place.
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Estel is offline Estel
2014-05-28 , 23:47
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#13
Originally Posted by sixwheeledbeast View Post
HAM source is open there is no reason why this can't be used upstream.
Probably, because upstream repos aren't so FCKD and this feature isn't required there? Or is implemented other (better? Worse?) way? I'm just wondering, if we're doing the right things, sticking to use HAM's-only "domains". If have nothing against differentiating from upstream, but only, if our approach is objectively better.

No matter what, I'm extremely happy that FMG took upon fixing HAM, and if at the end, it indeed stops being unusable mess, I'll gladly switch to it.


[QUOTE=sixwheeledbeast;1426933]All back to domains again.
I have manually installed bander, however, HAM has detected that I should have installed this package via the "approved" repository therefore, wished to "fix" my system by installing the "approved" version.[/quote

i'm not sure if I'm happy about package manager patronizing me this way. If there is (or will be) possibility to set some packages as manually installed and "don't bother me with 'approved' repository, again", then it's OK. Otherwise, it may become extremely cumbersome in many use-cases.

Originally Posted by sixwheeledbeast View Post
This for example would work like fmg says with an extras package having lower priority over a system package, apt-get will just compare-versions as per Debian packaging rules.
Again, how upstream approached the problem of random-someone uploading a repository version of a system package? Why we're using much less efficient approach here?

/Estel
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reinob is offline reinob
2014-05-30 , 08:43
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#14
Originally Posted by Estel View Post
Again, how upstream approached the problem of random-someone uploading a repository version of a system package? Why we're using much less efficient approach here?
Probably for the same reason other systems don't even allow you to run things as root. Warranty, support and liability.

If Nokia had simply used the standard debian way, people would have sooner or later get "infected" by arbitrary packages replacing "system" packages. So HAM has some kind of protection for this.

Obviously, given the current state of affairs concerning both Maemo and the people using Maemo I think it's about time we drop this nonsense and get rid of HAM and FAM (or at least of their arbitrary restrictions) and use only apt/dpkg. Heck, even apt-get is arbitrarily castrated (so as to prevent installing OVI stuff.. does OVI still exist?).

What we also need is fixing the dependencies of many packages. This will prevent breaking stuff with or without --auto-remove (auto-remove should NOT break stuff unless the dependencies are broken).
 

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sixwheeledbeast is offline sixwheeledbeast
2014-05-30 , 10:32
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#15
Originally Posted by reinob View Post
Probably for the same reason other systems don't even allow you to run things as root. Warranty, support and liability.

If Nokia had simply used the standard debian way, people would have sooner or later get "infected" by arbitrary packages replacing "system" packages. So HAM has some kind of protection for this.
Exactly

Originally Posted by reinob View Post
What we also need is fixing the dependencies of many packages. This will prevent breaking stuff with or without --auto-remove (auto-remove should NOT break stuff unless the dependencies are broken).
I agree
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peterleinchen is offline peterleinchen
2014-05-30 , 14:34
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#16
Originally Posted by sixwheeledbeast View Post
Exactly
Yep.



I agree
Me too.


About getting rid of HAM:
impossible as we need it at least to install 'rootsh' on a fresh reflashed system, right?
And it is nice to have a GUI for looking through (not apt-cache search)...
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chill is offline chill
2014-06-03 , 22:30
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#17
Not wishing to derail the topic, but I thought I'd ask:

In HAM I often have to press Refresh after going into Update, otherwise the newest updates don't show. Not the case with FAM. Is it just my device or is this FAM's advantage over HAM?
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handaxe is offline handaxe
2014-06-03 , 23:21
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#18
@chill: it is a known bug.
 

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reinob is offline reinob
2014-06-04 , 08:19
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#19
Originally Posted by peterleinchen View Post
About getting rid of HAM:
impossible as we need it at least to install 'rootsh' on a fresh reflashed system, right?
R&D mode. By now it should be enabled on all N900s still live. There is NO reason NOT to enable R&D mode. It can and will save your N900 some day.

And it is nice to have a GUI for looking through (not apt-cache search)...
Use the web, Luke
Anyway, I prefer scrolling with apt-cache search | less, using UP and DOWN keys (even if my German keyboard does not have those!) No uncontrolled acceleration when up and down scrolling.. I think I will end up disabling the touch screen for good.
 
freemangordon is offline freemangordon
2014-06-04 , 09:25
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#20
Originally Posted by reinob View Post
R&D mode. By now it should be enabled on all N900s still live.
My GF disagrees with you . And few others I know in person who still use N900.

There is NO reason NOT to enable R&D mode. It can and will save your N900 some day.
What about the extra juice withdrawn by kbd leds? Not to say R&D mode can be enabled *when* needed, not permanently. Assuming your USB port is intact.

Use the web, Luke ...
Do you really think we should use a *browser* to do package management? Come on :s
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