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2013-01-02
, 17:12
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#1112
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Originally Posted by Cue
Companies eliminate CEOs on a whim, in a matter of hours if necessary. The fact that he is still there, tells you how deep the problem was at NOKIA. Much worse than fanboys trying to admit it.
The board does not fire him because that would show even greater dysfunction and Nokia would all but collapse, not to mention they would need to pay his golden parachute.
I'm not going to suggest everything was OK at Nokia pre-Elop but you are kidding yourself if you think he didn't make things worse by declaring his only products dead before even having a device ready, then a while later customers (maybe even Nokia themselves) find out that WP7 itself was not ready either.
And while we are here arguing about whether Elop was right or wrong there is one thing you cannot deny: There will now be customers from all sides, Symbian, Maemo, Meego and even WP feeling severely burnt by Nokia right now. It's as if they were trying so hard to save themselves from the burning platform they left their customers to burn. It will be a real uphill struggle trying to win them back.
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2013-01-02
, 17:54
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Posts: 1,326 |
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Joined on Mar 2010
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#1113
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Originally Posted by Dave999
My mistake... It was the Brink of Failure thread http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=175
Oh, I remember that thread. That was a great thread indeed.
The discussion actually goes on for several pages, albeit buried amongst the usual bull* that often results in threads being moved to Off Topic.
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2013-01-02
, 18:47
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Thanked: 552 times |
Joined on Jul 2011
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#1114
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Originally Posted by Lumiaman
Actually the article you linked to said the Maemo team frequently had to come up with software optimisations because the hardware wasn't good enough.
Read the links above. it is a huge assumption that paths chosen pre-Elop could have been corrected. As many know, Nokia was focused more on hardware than seamless software.
Originally Posted by Lumiaman
Sure it told the story of various failed UIs before the development of the highly praised Swipe UI but it was probably those bad experiences that lead to QML. NOKIA's issues were design, politics and management, QML was probably the developers response. If there was to be yet another redesign of the UI QML would make it far easier for them to implement.
As a CEO, trying to make quick turnaround, would you want to work with a team that had Harmattan on the table since 2008????
It seems Elop learned nothing from this sorry tale, NOKIA are now again stuck with an unloved UI and they have no way of revising it.
Originally Posted by Lumiaman
For argument's sake let's pretend that's true, why would you choose to replace Symbian/MeeGo with another OS that also 'sucked for the masses'? Windows Phone 7 had already proved about as appealing as a frozen 5h1t-on-a-stick hadn't it? It was already a proven failure in the market place, it could never be the solution to what you have portrayed as the problem.
...inability to deliver what iOS and Android did for masses: a smooth and versatile experience. N8, N9 and N900 were all beta OSes that sucked for the masses.
If NOKIA were as great at hardware as you like to suggest the best thing for them to do would be to go for Android. People would still choose NOKIA because of their great hardware, right?
Qt/QML could be ported to Android for purposes of differentiation. Android is adaptable whereas Wndows Phone doesn't do differentiation.
And don't forget the all important 'ecosystem'? Wndows Phone 7 didn't have one to speak of but Android's was pretty good wasn't it?
Originally Posted by Lumiaman
It made sense to a Microsoft Trojan horse but it made no sense whatsoever to NOKIA. The market certainly appreciated that, NOKIA's share price suffered an immediate drop after the strategy was announced.
So Elop chose to outsource software to a software company, MS. Made sense then
Originally Posted by Lumiaman
Not foreseeing the crash Windows Phone 7 would induce was truly myopic. There is no set of circumstances you can dream up where exclusively adopting Windows Phone 7 was the right answer for NOKIA.
Blaming everything on Elop is highly myopic.
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2013-01-02
, 21:17
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#1115
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Originally Posted by MINKIN2
Poor qgil, such a nice guy. I hope he is doing better wherever he went. He saw a positive in many of us...
My mistake... It was the Brink of Failure thread http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=175
The discussion actually goes on for several pages, albeit buried amongst the usual bull* that often results in threads being moved to Off Topic.
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2013-01-02
, 22:51
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#1116
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Originally Posted by switch-hitter
Of course it made sense to NOKIA. NOKIA lost the software war, they had to go with someone else, whether it was MS or Googl Trojan horse, it was a coin toss. Also, I have never seen any NOKIA devices in the US prior to WP on NOKIA. Now I do see people using them. So, yes it is better than Dinosaur Symbian and Meego.
Actually the article you linked to said the Maemo team frequently had to come up with software optimisations because the hardware wasn't good enough.
Sure it told the story of various failed UIs before the development of the highly praised Swipe UI but it was probably those bad experiences that lead to QML. NOKIA's issues were design, politics and management, QML was probably the developers response. If there was to be yet another redesign of the UI QML would make it far easier for them to implement.
It seems Elop learned nothing from this sorry tale, NOKIA are now again stuck with an unloved UI and they have no way of revising it.
For argument's sake let's pretend that's true, why would you choose to replace Symbian/MeeGo with another OS that also 'sucked for the masses'? Windows Phone 7 had already proved about as appealing as a frozen 5h1t-on-a-stick hadn't it? It was already a proven failure in the market place, it could never be the solution to what you have portrayed as the problem.
If NOKIA were as great at hardware as you like to suggest the best thing for them to do would be to go for Android. People would still choose NOKIA because of their great hardware, right?
Qt/QML could be ported to Android for purposes of differentiation. Android is adaptable whereas Wndows Phone doesn't do differentiation.
And don't forget the all important 'ecosystem'? Wndows Phone 7 didn't have one to speak of but Android's was pretty good wasn't it?
It made sense to a Microsoft Trojan horse but it made no sense whatsoever to NOKIA. The market certainly appreciated that, NOKIA's share price suffered an immediate drop after the strategy was announced.
Not foreseeing the crash Windows Phone 7 would induce was truly myopic. There is no set of circumstances you can dream up where exclusively adopting Windows Phone 7 was the right answer for NOKIA.
On the other hand, I am enjoying L920 and iphone. Both are superb devices for the masses.
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2013-01-02
, 22:56
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#1117
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On another note. Was in San Fran Haight district and walked into an unlocked cell phone store. Pureview 808 was there. Picked it up, and couldnt believe how bad Symbian is now that I have used iOS and WP. What an injustice to otherwise pretty device.
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2013-01-03
, 01:15
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Posts: 207 |
Thanked: 552 times |
Joined on Jul 2011
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#1118
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Originally Posted by Lumiaman
Look at the (entirely predictable) consequences. NOKIA have shrivelled to insignificance as a result of Elop opening his star port and allowing Ballmer to dock. It made no sense; the market knew it, the carriers knew it, the retailers knew it, hell even Elop knew it but he had an ulterior motive.
Of course it made sense to NOKIA.
Originally Posted by Lumiaman
If NOKIA had lost the software 'war' what the hell was the outcome for Microsoft and their laughable little pop-gun? At least Google had got a really big bazooka.
NOKIA lost the software war, they had to go with someone else, whether it was MS or Googl Trojan horse, it was a coin toss.
Originally Posted by Lumiaman
Meanwhile they were totally dominating the rest of the planet - you know, where the overwhelming majority of smartphone buyers live. In Elop's desperate attempt to make NOKIA relevant to America he has surrendered the rest of the planet to Samsung.
Also, I have never seen any NOKIA devices in the US prior to WP on NOKIA.
To add insult to life-threatening injury Elop didn't even succeed in seducing America, Windows Phone is still an irrelevance even there too.
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2013-01-03
, 02:41
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#1119
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Originally Posted by switch-hitter
I think you are missing the point with WP. The idea was to use both desktop and mobile devices to create a powerful ecosystem that will synergize.
Look at the (entirely predictable) consequences. NOKIA have shrivelled to insignificance as a result of Elop opening his star port and allowing Ballmer to dock. It made no sense; the market knew it, the carriers knew it, the retailers knew it, hell even Elop knew it but he had an ulterior motive.
If NOKIA had lost the software 'war' what the hell was the outcome for Microsoft and their laughable little pop-gun? At least Google had got a really big bazooka.
Meanwhile they were totally dominating the rest of the planet - you know, where the overwhelming majority of smartphone buyers live. In Elop's desperate attempt to make NOKIA relevant to America he has surrendered the rest of the planet to Samsung.
To add insult to life-threatening injury Elop didn't even succeed in seducing America, Windows Phone is still an irrelevance even there too.
I see no difference between google and Android. Both are evil corporate behemoths. So whether Nokia went Android or MS, makes no difference to me. I like the MS wedding as it provided Nokia an opportunity to start from the early build up. I am still long on Nokia, as I think that MS will gain some traction via a combination of ecosystems.
As I said above, both iOS and WP are great devices for the masses.
Now, with regards to your worldwide comment on Nokia. That was the problem. Nokia became a third world manufacturer and was comforted to providing crappy service and products in the third world. But the march of androids and iOS was inevitable and the sweep of Symbian and Meego out of the third world. That was the big Nokia problem: complacent to sell third rate service and products in the Third world and losing competitive battle in more savy markets. So you are wrong on that point too. Instead, Nokia should have strived to be competitive in USA and to learn how to treat their customers well.
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2013-01-03
, 03:19
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#1120
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Originally Posted by Lumiaman
Have to disagree here since there are now more mobile devices than desktops and that will never change back.
I think you are missing the point with WP. The idea was to use both desktop and mobile devices to create a powerful ecosystem that will synergize.
Desktop is an old way of thinking. Microsoft has been losing that battle for quite a while. Distributed computing, or the term "cloud", is where folks are truly going and it's been successful for iTunes - you don't need a Mac to update, purchase or have access to their media offerings - and also Amazon with their App, Music and Video Store.
Desktops are not necessary because people are migrating away from them. Most people are using smartphones. Ecosystems need to be dependent of desktops.
That's where Microsoft is going way wrong. Apple even has embraced that.
Anyway, I think you're missing the point and that's why WP isn't taking off either.
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I'm not going to suggest everything was OK at Nokia pre-Elop but you are kidding yourself if you think he didn't make things worse by declaring his only products dead before even having a device ready, then a while later customers (maybe even Nokia themselves) find out that WP7 itself was not ready either.
And while we are here arguing about whether Elop was right or wrong there is one thing you cannot deny: There will now be customers from all sides, Symbian, Maemo, Meego and even WP feeling severely burnt by Nokia right now. It's as if they were trying so hard to save themselves from the burning platform they left their customers to burn. It will be a real uphill struggle trying to win them back.