Audio, PA, XPROT, and the damage done - maemo.org

Active Topics

Firefox with Leste (5)
to Maemo 7 / Leste by teroyk - 1 day, 6 hrs ago
Handbook (2)
to Maemo 7 / Leste by teroyk - 2 days, 5 hrs ago
more...

Page 1 of 2

Next >

Thread Tools

	joerg_rw	2013-09-10 , 15:01
	Posts: 2,222 \| Thanked: 12,651 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3	#1

Originally Posted by electroaudio

A decent line-out, without class-D amplifier and speakerprotection in the signalchain would also be nice, i cant use my n900 now as a soundsource for professional work since the sound is just too weird.

Indeed it seems it's XPROT and the gear around it that got invented (or at least adopted) by Nokia when it became obvious the class-D without highpass would blow their speakers, which now has some quite unpleasant effects on audio, like dynamic compression, dynamic EQ and other crippling of high quality audio.
Though all this might be needed and maybe even OK for the built in speakers, it's probably worth it to review and rework the sw-side audio chain when using headset connector, particularly when using it for 0dB line-out to any home-stereo or even professional equipment. Alas it's not possible to auto-detect whether headphones or a 3.5mm->2*cinch Line-In cable is connected, so any such adjustment has to happen by triggering it from a sort of GUI.

For first experiments it might be worth it to completely shut down PulseAudio and use the plain ALSA for audio output. CAVEAT: this scenario is known to potentially blow your speakers in N900.

PS: I don't think the class-D amp by itself is that bad.
Cheers
jOERG

__________________
Maemo Community Council member [2012-10, 2013-05, 2013-11, 2014-06 terms]
Hildon Foundation Council inaugural member.
MCe.V. foundation member

EX Hildon Foundation approved Maemo Administration Coordinator (stepped down due to bullying 2014-04-05)
aka "techstaff" - the guys who keep your infra running - Devotion to Duty http://xkcd.com/705/

IRC(freenode): DocScrutinizer*
First USB hostmode fanatic, father of H-E-N

Quote & Reply |

The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to joerg_rw For This Useful Post:
misiak, reinob, sixwheeledbeast, Wikiwide

	electroaudio	2013-09-10 , 15:53
	Posts: 381 \| Thanked: 336 times \| Joined on Jan 2011 @ Stockholm, Sweden	#2

Originally Posted by joerg_rw

Though all this might be needed and maybe even OK for the built in speakers

Well for the built in speakers then it is good to have it all there to allow for maximum output.
-I dont think that the way internal speakers are used is so demanding on quality.

it's probably worth it to review and rework the sw-side audio chain when using headset connector, particularly when using it for 0dB line-out to any home-stereo or even professional equipment. Alas it's not possible to auto-detect whether headphones or a 3.5mm->2*cinch Line-In cable is connected, so any such adjustment has to happen by triggering it from a sort of GUI.

I dont believe that headphones need any protection from the n900.
Headphones usually are capable to handle outputs from soundcards and are most likely designed to withstand other strong sources without breaking.

For first experiments it might be worth it to completely shut down PulseAudio and use the plain ALSA for audio output. CAVEAT: this scenario is known to potentially blow your speakers in N900.

PS: I don't think the class-D amp by itself is that bad.
Cheers
jOERG

This would be very interesting to try on the headphones output

But i was also thinking about if not speakerprotection could be made of passive electronics (a large cap in series with the speaker) or as d&b amplifiers which only uses gainreduction as speakerprotection but which has a sophisticated way to measure the temeraturedependant impedance of the speaker and to predict the movement of the cone. ( is conemovement, Xmech, even a problem here?) otherwise a amp with a very high outputimpedance (currentamp) could be used and a simple mathematical formula for the induced and transferred heat in the coil could be utilized in the digital world.

__________________
Deskypplet , a desktop for N900 *RIP*

Last edited by electroaudio; 2013-09-10 at 16:07.

Quote & Reply |

The Following User Says Thank You to electroaudio For This Useful Post:
Wikiwide

	joerg_rw	2013-09-10 , 16:08
	Posts: 2,222 \| Thanked: 12,651 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3	#3

Originally Posted by electroaudio

[...] I dont believe that headphones need any protection from the n900.
Headphones usually are capable to handle outputs from soundcards and are most likely designed to withstand other strong sources without breaking.

They do that to protect your ears, not to protect the headphones ;-)

Quote & Reply |

The Following User Says Thank You to joerg_rw For This Useful Post:
Wikiwide

	electroaudio	2013-09-10 , 16:36
	Posts: 381 \| Thanked: 336 times \| Joined on Jan 2011 @ Stockholm, Sweden	#4

Originally Posted by joerg_rw

They do that to protect your ears, not to protect the headphones ;-)

Well, they dont know what efficiency (how much of the electrical power that is converted to sound and not to heat) i have on my headphones

-I am familiar with the fact that there may exist some kind of recommended or maybe even legal limit somewhere in the world, but i think it is ridiculous since efficiency easily can vary 20-30dB between different headphones)

However, currentlimiting on the line-out would solve that.(a simple resistor?)
line input usually is in the 10Kohm range for modern pro equipment and more like 100K for homeequipment (Really old tubegear can be as low as 600ohm but i dont think anyone ever will connect a cellphone to that

) while headphones are more like 8-32ohm and a few professional models with as high impedance as 600ohm.

Ps, about you PM, i am quite convinced that it is the dsp i cant get my ears around, so nothing strange there.

__________________
Deskypplet , a desktop for N900 *RIP*

Last edited by electroaudio; 2013-09-10 at 16:46.

Quote & Reply |

The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to electroaudio For This Useful Post:
pichlo, Wikiwide

	pichlo	2013-09-10 , 19:13
	Posts: 6,445 \| Thanked: 20,981 times \| Joined on Sep 2012 @ UK	#5

Yeah, I was going to say pretty much the same thing, except TMO was "under maintenance" and didn't let me

The phone can easily tell between line in and headphones by the impedance. I assume the same trick is used currently to tell between headphones-with-mic and TV out, but of course I don't know for sure.

Class D amp may be a PITA but class A or AB is a power guzzler and battery killer. Class A pre-amp for line out followed by class D for speakers and headphones?

Quote & Reply |

The Following User Says Thank You to pichlo For This Useful Post:
Wikiwide

	joerg_rw	2013-09-10 , 19:45
	Posts: 2,222 \| Thanked: 12,651 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3	#6

Originally Posted by pichlo

The phone can easily tell between line in and headphones by the impedance. I assume the same trick is used currently to tell between headphones-with-mic and TV out, but of course I don't know for sure.

No, and no. N900 has no means to check speaker impedance. Test for headset, headphone, AV is done via "3rd ring" (mic/video) impedance. On this level headphone and line-out cable look identical.

Quote & Reply |

The Following User Says Thank You to joerg_rw For This Useful Post:
Wikiwide

	pichlo	2013-09-10 , 19:50
	Posts: 6,445 \| Thanked: 20,981 times \| Joined on Sep 2012 @ UK	#7

Originally Posted by joerg_rw

N900 has no means to check speaker impedance.

But Neo900 might. Or have I missed the mark? Is this not about Neo900?

Quote & Reply |

The Following User Says Thank You to pichlo For This Useful Post:
Wikiwide

	joerg_rw	2013-09-10 , 19:58
	Posts: 2,222 \| Thanked: 12,651 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3	#8

this is a leisure talk about audio. sure I will take ideas to Neo900 from here ;-) Audio is the most non-finalized section in Neo900.

Quote & Reply |

The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to joerg_rw For This Useful Post:
pichlo, Wikiwide

	electroaudio	2013-09-10 , 20:02
	Posts: 381 \| Thanked: 336 times \| Joined on Jan 2011 @ Stockholm, Sweden	#9

Regarding class A, that is a powerhog

But i dont think the crossoverdistortion in a class B bufferamp will be any worse than the stepdistortion from any cellphonefriendly D/A converter.

Anyway, limiting the output could be done by limiting the swing for 0dBFS too, thereby making it possible to optimize the electronics for any kind of capacitive/inductive output that our cables (and headphones) can present for the amp.
-Atleast i will always have somekind of preamp with variable gain to plug the output into

However i still dont think it is useful to do anykind of "earprotection" when headphones dont have a standardized sensitivity.

__________________
Deskypplet , a desktop for N900 *RIP*

Last edited by electroaudio; 2013-09-10 at 20:17.

Quote & Reply |

The Following User Says Thank You to electroaudio For This Useful Post:
Wikiwide

	joerg_rw	2013-09-10 , 20:11
	Posts: 2,222 \| Thanked: 12,651 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3	#10

Originally Posted by electroaudio

Regarding class A, that is a powerhog But i dont think the crossoverdistortion in a class B bufferamp will be any worse than the stepdistortion from any

Check 1bit-DA converter, and the influence the clock rate has on precision. Actually some (most) class-D have no quantization at all. They don't work like e.g. 10bit parallel R-2R D/A-converters but like switched mode PSU, with either continually modulated pulsewidth at a fixed frequency, or fixed pulswidth at continually modulated frequency. Either way the modulation is done via analog means, like delta-sigma comparators. See http://www.beis.de/Elektronik/DeltaS...eltaSigma.html figure 1. (a class-D amp is a delta-sigma converter with analog output and usually even analog input)
Class B has most problems with the power dissipation in output driver transistors at I/2, when both current and voltage across a transistor C-E are at 50% of maximum. IOW when for a 4Ohm speaker the transistor has also "4Ohm" between collector and emitter, and both the speaker and the amp dissipate same amount of power. Class-D efficiency is theoretically 100% since either voltage or current is zero, dependng on switch (transistor) open or closed. Thus class-D in embedded.

full ACK for nonsense of ear protection.