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2010-04-21
, 19:38
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Posts: 1,513 |
Thanked: 2,248 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ US
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#32
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Originally Posted by lbt
I haven't heard before that Mer was too much work to finish. What I observed is the difficulty they had getting Nokia (who say they support open source) to open needed components, even those which relate only to the legacy tablets, and then got blindsided along with the rest of us with MeeGo. Nokia obviously isn't really engaged with the maemo community and I don't see how the community can be faulted (except if by community you mean Council).
It turns out that Merm as originally conceivedm was too hard for just a few core devs to deliver and, IMHO, the maemo community didn't engage enough.
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2010-04-21
, 19:43
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Posts: 1,671 |
Thanked: 11,478 times |
Joined on Jun 2008
@ Warsaw, Poland
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#33
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Originally Posted by SD69
No, that isn't what happened. It was hybris on our side and Nokia had been very cooperative in terms of getting us access to needed binaries, but we insisted on a open platform instead of taking a shortcut.
I haven't heard before that Mer was too much work to finish. What I observed is the difficulty they had getting Nokia (who say they support open source) to open needed components, even those which relate only to the legacy tablets, and then got blindsided along with the rest of us with MeeGo. Nokia obviously isn't really engaged with the maemo community and I don't see how the community can be faulted (except if by community you mean Council).
__________________
As you go on to other communities, remember to build them around politeness, respect, trust and humility. Be wary of poisonous people and deal with them before they end up killing your community.. Seen it happen to too many IRC channels, forums, open source projects.
As you go on to other communities, remember to build them around politeness, respect, trust and humility. Be wary of poisonous people and deal with them before they end up killing your community.. Seen it happen to too many IRC channels, forums, open source projects.
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2010-04-21
, 19:46
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Posts: 961 |
Thanked: 565 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
@ Tyneside, North East England
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#34
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Originally Posted by silvermountain
Ouch, That's a bit harsh.
Does your job also include finishing a project because I haven't seen much of that?
Along those lines, since you say that MeeGo in your personal opinion has most future does that mean that Nokia is supporting Mer and if not then why is Mer being worked on if MeeGo in your opinion is a more plausible OS option?
I'm sorry to sound 'bitter' but honestly the lack of focus ('Mer for N8xx', 'No wait, we're also doing Mer for N900', 'No wait Mer is dead now it's Mer2 that will come', 'Oh wait. no MeeGo on N8xx is better') is indeed rather tiring and has become one huge disappointment.
If your job, as you mention above, is to start development of things in the community I think you've done that. But if you going forward expect people to beta test, etc you might also want to think about sticking to a project.
I agree slightly that the port of Mer to the N900 seemed to us on the outside to be a distraction, although I suspect that it was not a great amount of extra work compared with building Mer from scratch, and that for the Devs it may have been useful for debugging the desktop environment as the initial build was (and is) very slow on the N8x0.
I think that the Meego announcement caught most people on the outside of the Nokia inner sanctum by surprise. I can see why it makes a lot more sense to put the effort into porting meego to N8x0, than continuing to head down the mer path.
I'm no dev, but I can appereciate the effort that went into these projects, and am full of awe and respect for the people who largely give their time and experience freely to these projects.
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2010-04-21
, 19:54
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Posts: 1,513 |
Thanked: 2,248 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ US
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#35
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Originally Posted by Stskeeps
Notice I said open needed components, not agree to redistribute binaries. According to this page
No, that isn't what happened. It was hybris on our side and Nokia had been very cooperative in terms of getting us access to needed binaries, but we insisted on a open platform instead of taking a shortcut.
http://wiki.maemo.org/Open_developme...losed_packages
nothing was opened in 2009.
You think it was hubris to ask Nokia to help in open source software development related to Maemo?
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2010-04-21
, 20:06
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Posts: 1,671 |
Thanked: 11,478 times |
Joined on Jun 2008
@ Warsaw, Poland
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#36
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Originally Posted by SD69
No, it was a combination of technical (most components wouldn't work on a modern Debian system with the 'cuts' we made) and that we didn't feel we needed them.. It was a mistake and I have admitted to this before. It was hybris to think we could do it on our own with existing community strength. Open sourcing wasn't trivial either. Waiting for something to be open sourced could stall a project.
Notice I said open needed components, not agree to redistribute binaries. According to this page
http://wiki.maemo.org/Open_developme...losed_packages
nothing was opened in 2009.
You think it was hubris to ask Nokia to help in open source software development related to Maemo?
__________________
As you go on to other communities, remember to build them around politeness, respect, trust and humility. Be wary of poisonous people and deal with them before they end up killing your community.. Seen it happen to too many IRC channels, forums, open source projects.
As you go on to other communities, remember to build them around politeness, respect, trust and humility. Be wary of poisonous people and deal with them before they end up killing your community.. Seen it happen to too many IRC channels, forums, open source projects.
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2010-04-21
, 20:35
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Posts: 1,359 |
Thanked: 717 times |
Joined on May 2009
@ ...standing right behind you...
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#37
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Originally Posted by gazza_d
I do apologize as it did come across as harsher than I meant. It's not that I don't appreciate and value the efforts put in - but after so many, at least perceived, sidetracks and abandoned efforts for the NEXT shiny solution I also can't help but to feel frustrated and wonder what could had been accomplished with a more structured/focused approach.
Ouch, That's a bit harsh.
I agree slightly that the port of Mer to the N900 seemed to us on the outside to be a distraction, although I suspect that it was not a great amount of extra work compared with building Mer from scratch, and that for the Devs it may have been useful for debugging the desktop environment as the initial build was (and is) very slow on the N8x0.
I think that the Meego announcement caught most people on the outside of the Nokia inner sanctum by surprise. I can see why it makes a lot more sense to put the effort into porting meego to N8x0, than continuing to head down the mer path.
I'm no dev, but I can appereciate the effort that went into these projects, and am full of awe and respect for the people who largely give their time and experience freely to these projects.
__________________
.N810 experience: Since 6/2009
My Twenty Favorite OS2008 Applications:
AutoScan, Diablo5 Theme, Dialcentral, DragLock, EmelFM2, FlipClock, gPodder, Headphoned, Knots 2, Maemo Mapper, mPlayer, openNTPD, OpenSSH, Panucci, Personal Launcher, QuickNote, Seqretary, SlideLock, Telescope, YellowNotes
.N810 experience: Since 6/2009
My Twenty Favorite OS2008 Applications:
AutoScan, Diablo5 Theme, Dialcentral, DragLock, EmelFM2, FlipClock, gPodder, Headphoned, Knots 2, Maemo Mapper, mPlayer, openNTPD, OpenSSH, Panucci, Personal Launcher, QuickNote, Seqretary, SlideLock, Telescope, YellowNotes
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2010-04-22
, 08:13
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Posts: 2 |
Thanked: 0 times |
Joined on Apr 2010
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#38
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Originally Posted by Stskeeps
However, I believe Ubuntu will also work.
Yes. It is bare linus tree plus some patches.
Also, http://wiki.meego.com/Developing_in_a_Meego_Environment is a good start. I can recommend getting a Fedora VM to do this in.
Nice idea to get MeeGo on N8X0. I have an N800 I'm willing to lay down for testing. I've been thinking in this direction for a while now (even on http://www.meegoblog.net). I'd like to use this opportunity to try kernel development for the first time. And I'm hoping to do a comprehensive documentation of all my findings and eventual creation of a working MeeGo image for the N800.
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2010-04-22
, 19:31
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Posts: 1,671 |
Thanked: 11,478 times |
Joined on Jun 2008
@ Warsaw, Poland
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#39
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Well, at least the UI is the same on N900 and N810 for once:
Will be publishing kernel and kickstart file (very close to N900 one) soon. Still a long way to go.
Will be publishing kernel and kickstart file (very close to N900 one) soon. Still a long way to go.
__________________
As you go on to other communities, remember to build them around politeness, respect, trust and humility. Be wary of poisonous people and deal with them before they end up killing your community.. Seen it happen to too many IRC channels, forums, open source projects.
As you go on to other communities, remember to build them around politeness, respect, trust and humility. Be wary of poisonous people and deal with them before they end up killing your community.. Seen it happen to too many IRC channels, forums, open source projects.
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2010-04-24
, 14:25
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Posts: 1,513 |
Thanked: 2,248 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ US
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#40
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Originally Posted by Stskeeps
No, open sourcing isn't trivial. But this isn't a matter of delay or something beyond their ability, Nokia hasn't opened any components for the tablets that they EOL'ed two years ago, despite professing a commitment to open source and to the community during that time period.
Open sourcing wasn't trivial either. Waiting for something to be open sourced could stall a project.
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All times are GMT. The time now is 08:53.
I'm sorry for the project ADHD I've caused. My professional life and plans regarding Mer certainly got thrown into the air when MeeGo came about. I discussed this in the post-mortem of Mer as an idealistic project.
What we did was that we in a year put together a Maemo compatible platform. Fully open source. Impressive, from a technical point of view. Good for users? Not always.
The (sad) part of my job is that what I do isn't always directly visible as having originated with me. If anything, we've had a central point for developing and hacking these devices on a system level - not just on applications. Again, I think a lot of people will go on record to say I've helped them along or found places for their work to be in.
Mer^2 was being worked on for the sole reason of a short-term solution for the N8x0 users to be able to run Fremantle applications. Maemo GTK+ does not currently exist in MeeGo, making this goal difficult. I have doubts if it makes sense to work on this, too.
If we're going to analyze this from a simple resource point of view, then let us go for MeeGo. It won't solve the problem of N8x0 being left behind short term, but long term it would, instead of maintaining a distro or a backport, we maintain a hardware adaptation. Which is a hell lot easier. MeeGo's as portable as Mer was.
We already have skilled people successfully getting a modern kernel on it. MeeGo, is - probably much to everyone's joy, not managed by me and is a platform a lot of different device vendors, communities, etc will use. This work on the platform would be directly transferable to our N8x0 devices.
I would actually like to ask you to start a thread on "Stskeeps's distmaster work - how has he been performing and what would we like to see him do in the future". Let's hear what community says I should be doing and what I've done wrong - let us clear the slate about my performance and mistakes once and for all.
What I do is fight for things benefiting the community and the users in MeeGo, such as openness, open devices, etc and a lot of random facilitation to activate people and make them feel they're contributing to something, not just a black hole (read: a bug report that noone ever merges the fix from). And doing it with skill and proving my point by technical means?
Now, is that not something worth having me doing?
As you go on to other communities, remember to build them around politeness, respect, trust and humility. Be wary of poisonous people and deal with them before they end up killing your community.. Seen it happen to too many IRC channels, forums, open source projects.
Last edited by Stskeeps; 2010-04-21 at 19:29.