Castle of Maemo: vision

[Maemish]

Yesterday I got a vision of Maemo Forum. The first vision was a big fest like going on in a medieval castle's main hall, with a big table filled with food and talks and laughter and music. There were jesters, knights, kings, monks, noble and druids. But it changed constantly as who was who, from wise to king to jester and so on. Abnd in the castle there were other parts too. Cigar rooms with a fireplace and couple of chairs where people talked privately. There were chambers with round table, where some noble ones had their own meetings. and there were study chambers, where people went by themself to study and learn before entering back to the on going fest.

That kind of vision I got yesterday of this forum. And then I thought how cool it would be that the castle would have its own heraldic colourful symbol, done about right according to some rules. I would really like that and be honoured to be marked by such somehow, would it be a t-shirt, a badge on a backpack, what each one gets in his mind.

So I thought to ask is there already some kind of symbol or mark of maemo, or is there someone heraldic oriented guy to think about this, or is there any interest with others to this kind of stuff, and would those interested like more some modern stupid symbol instead of a really cool heraldic one?

At least with this we could have a really entertaining fight about what would be a true mark of maemo or something. I think having the letter M and a keyboard would be obvious to include to it someway.

[Maemish]

This pic is quite crowded and should have more air in it but just thought of throwing as an idea. In this there is GNU Linux Maemo with a debian mark mixed with maemo yellow e plus a sliding keyboard. Maybe someone could like to try making something out of this fast drawn idea, either rough edged medieval or polished modern, with more space around stuff plus colours and clear edges?

[endsormeans]

Interesting image in your noggin Maemish...
I bet everyone here has had similar flashes of how this place looks to them.
Know I have...
(I have sans the court jesters and Arthurian stamp...more like a cross between your library , sitting rooms and add in workshops ...on every level of a skyscraper with every level being one of the subforums and categories....some busier and filled with the bustle of people currently, some quiet with fewer people)

As far as heraldic work, I have about 10 odd years of study on the topic and understand the meanings behind colour, symbol, placement, etc.
Done some work for clients and organisations.

However, here we have had our time, and we are done with such I think.
We have had our maemo linux mascot debate,
icon debate
logo debate
I have quite a few varieties of t-shirts and iron - on patches, etc. ..
I have designed as well...
I wear 'em about now and then..

But there is no ...
or rather was no viable market to break even ....
cost wise ...
it is just a financial loss to produce in mass...
any product aimed for maemo ...
there just isn't the numbers / interest here to make it viable.

Been there, done that....on a few occasions...with a few projects here...
Plenty of folks love the idea..
(I call it "The "Ord" Issue" )
But don't get on board
can't afford
get bored

Not enough numbers...
community ennui ...

Whatever ...
take your pick ..

[Maemish]

I didn't think to produce anything else than an image. Each and everyone could make it where and how they wish, so no money business involved here. "The Ord" issue. Nice.

Edit: Just checked the maemo mascot thread. I hear you Endsormeans. I see the difficulty of the matter. I don't mind.

[endsormeans]

a fun maemo arts and crafts time then....
great.
But if folks wanted something done as you said
"I would really like that and be honoured to be marked by such somehow, would it be a t-shirt, a badge on a backpack, what each one gets in his mind."

Then there is cost involved.
Time to do it is cost.
T-shirts cost
Badges cost
Printing / producing costs
and there will always be ones that don't come out properly ..in the process...that loss costs.

So whether it is individually done or professionally done.
Your suggestion costs.
It is always much much more expensive to produce one ..or a couple ...of a thing..
And always is cheaper to produce en masse ...

I have done quite a few such projects here in my spare time.
I didn't mind the cost then to produce the protos
It was fun and I wished to have at least for myself the aimed items..
whether it was t-shirts, patches, badges, replacement n900 body in a more durable and aesthetic casing..
Whatever..

I still make such ...but only for myself..

Since for the community it is not viable ...it is just a cost loss.

[Maemish]

I meant to get the image only. If someone would like to put it somewhere he would put it, by whatever means. Nobody would be massproducing anything.

But I think I will only design and make one to myself. Maybe I will show the end product.

N900 charging. Writing this with my wifi iphone with slider keyboard.

[endsormeans]

As a suggestion,
If one wishes to do Heraldry as a project.
Then I suggest cursory looking up how it is done.
Just "putting stuff" on a shield does not make it Heraldry.

The exact placement of things, the exact types of things, their colours, their postures ..and their interactions with one another on the crest....and soooooo very very much more detail is critical.
It means something...
Every properly done crest or shield were are treasure trove of deliberately executed purpose..
meant to yield books and books of data on that one crest or shield

In the end it speaks volumes and volumes of information.
With one big flag, pennant, crest, shield ...
plainly seen from a distance ..it announced a great deal of important information of those under its banner.
That was the point of Heraldry.

Done without following the Heraldry "rules of engagement" (so-to-speak) in planning out the crest, what you have is not a crest based on Heraldry,
but actually just a ..."picture"..in the most rudimentary sense.

Just as an example ...
In our modern age..that thinks itself so educated, so intellectual, and so deep..
When actually, it is the reverse.
The majority of humanity today have cabbage for brains.
The letter "A" of the alphabet ...is just that...simply a letter to be used as part of a sentence, with zero meaning unto itself, or multiple meanings.
"A" is just a lone "thing" ...like each and every one of the other letters in the alphabet.

Older methods of study such as Heraldry (and even older still studies than that...) do not look at the letter "A" as just a letter.
The colour it is printed in,
the size,
the placement on the crest,
any slight or dramatically noticeable differences in exaggeration
or flourishes
or decorative of the letter,
how they interact with other symbols ...
etc..
Was the vast depth of exactly what that portion of data of the crest yielded.
The rules aren't just "made up", they've been around a long time, most of the said rules predate the art of Heraldry itself, and were adopted by Heraldry...
There are very specific rules to Heraldry, depending upon the rule book...and the exact time period... one follows.

[Maemish]

Soooooooo funny! I had just spent like three hours with this shield and then came to read your post. LOL! If I would get embarrassed now would be the moment. Sooo funny. Maybe I should move the debian logo a bit and then it would be heraldic, right?

[endsormeans]

hahaha...
well it wasn't meant to embarrass Maemish...

Your preliminaries are a start..
the latest is getting there..
it is about the depth ..about the amount of information you are trying to squeeze ...tastefully into a crest..
The more you can, following the rules of Heraldry ...the more information you convey to not just the uninitiated ...but volumes more to those who have even the rudiments of Heraldry under their belt...or who wish to...and discover the reams of data buried in your crest.

Point in case.
do the 6 fleur-de-lis have any intrinsic meaning?
or the central cross?
was the placement of the logos and icons deliberate to those quarters and their meanings reflect that?
perhaps the penguin should be "rampant" facing to the left or right?
or perhaps the penguin and the gnu should be more passively demonstrated...say as tearing at their breast ..to signify the parent (os) giving to its offspring, our maemo animal logo...with the pair of them in a "vulning" posture.

the above is just a cursory and casual...not in depth ..
In depth would be much much much more...deliberately specified information ...one could call "Heraldrically encrypted information"
according to the precepts of the art.

Moving the debian logo ..?
that depends...on what you wish to convey..
You do not have to be statically bound by the "recognized official symbol of our time" for those icons.
You can change the colour of the debian logo
That colour red has a specific connotation in the debian logo...you may or may not wish it....specific flourishes depending on where they are put on the debian logo also convey info.
also its location on the crest conveys information.
But you can add much much more depth to just that one little quarter ...than just a logo which just refers to a link ...a familial link of debian to our maemo...

Think of Heraldry ...as something akin to any picto- graphic language.
like say ...egyptian heiros ...
each symbol in their system...meant something, and meant even more when in concert with other symbols...
To the point where...
The amount of deliberately planted meaning in a small space ..
ends up taking so much meaning that it starts running further on its own...past your own efforts..
Thus it takes on a life of its own.
With all such ancient languages ...a lie was easy to see...
A lie was a poor construction...
A lie was an omission from the whole ...
A lie was an "incomplete".
A lie had no life.

If you are not "constructing" or "building" or "shaping" the growth of this Heraldry ...
Then you are just putting ABC blocks together randomly ...
without purpose...
You are speaking gibberish in the language of Heraldry...
No different than randomly putting any words together in any language and calling that a beautiful sentence.

But if done according to the laws of that language..
There will be a point where the depth of meaning becomes so vast as to be considered beautifully sublime ..
as to be considered a living thing that once it begins to speak to the person who is viewing it..studying it...they realize it just keeps going deeper...past your initial intent...

Like a wind up toy...
The longer you wind it up...the longer it runs across the kitchen floor...
surprising everyone with the life of its own and the inevitable directions it takes of its own volition ..regardless of the initial intent and direction of the person who wound it and let it loose.

[Maemish]

Darn. I wasn't taking this too serious and just put up something fast by taking from the net and putting together. And then you come and start to share your knowledge and stuff. You put me in a position where I know have to make one for real. Well ok. I will.

[Macros]

I have to say your last creation already looks great Maemish!
The shield shows we defend something and on the shield, which has its border already following Maemos color scheme, there are the building blocks of our beloved system.

I am curious what you will create. Maybe the pirate party sticker on my N900 has to give up its place in favor of your next image.

[endsormeans]

Exactly macros.

and hardly maemish...

If you are content with the depth of meaning you wish to impart to others with your crest maemish...then don't fret. Macros likes it. I like the latest. It does on the surface show the most obvious primary influences which are important to us.

If you wish for more meaning poured in to the crest though...
click and paste won't cut it.
At the least, you will have to take those 4 quartered logos and manipulate them in a graphic program to pour more "intent" into your crest.
It doesn't take much though ...this is not a herculean effort.
if necessary to convey more desired information then possibly
changing the placements of the icons,
changing their colours,
changing their backgrounds,
changing their postures
changing the directions they face or look or gesture to.
innocuous or exaggerated flourishes could be used where applicable.
just remember you don't need to put tons of visual graphic into the crest.
Heraldry isn't about clutter, it is about depth through purposeful simplicity

Then when done make sure to have a write up ...
say in bullet form
of every nuance according to the applicable laws of Heraldry.
Then you will have done (even if you feel it is rudimentary) a masterpiece everyone will marvel at as they follow your bullet form "legend" and see the interactions you have made come to life.

[Maemish]

Everything was just grabbed or copy pasted from net as a draft idea. I will do the next so that it is really self made the end result. Gonna be different but got an idea.

[juiceme]

I will do the next so that it is really self made the end result. Gonna be different but got an idea.

I'm really looking forward to your attempt to create a crest for us; You seem to have already some inspiration and I have no doubt gentle guidence from @endsormeans will polish it up to deserved glory!

I have found that @endsormeans possesses great dephts of wizdom on crafts and arts but there is one nit I'm picking here;

Think of Heraldry ...as something akin to any picto- graphic language.
like say ...egyptian heiros ...
each symbol in their system...meant something, and meant even more when in concert with other symbols...
To the point where...
The amount of deliberately planted meaning in a small space ..
ends up taking so much meaning that it starts running further on its own...past your own efforts..
Thus it takes on a life of its own.
With all such ancient languages ...a lie was easy to see...
A lie was a poor construction...
A lie was an omission from the whole ...
A lie was an "incomplete".
A lie had no life.

Regarding Heraldy this might or might not be true, but regarding any written language ever used and invented by humans whether ancient pictograms or any phonetic languages; All of those are capable of teliing lies, inaccuracies and fables.
It is in the deep nature of our intellect to be able to spin either complete lies or truths into conciese and self-integral pieces of literature.

[endsormeans]

lies are different from inaccuracies and fables.
To understand this one must inspect what exactly a lie is.
It is easy to use the word, it is easy to think it is easily understood
concept, and it is easy to see it in retrospect once the lie is used and afterward uncovered.

A lie is an incomplete.
This is seen in everyone from children to elder states people.
The use of a lie to hide information, and subsequent inspection of details surrounding the situation, almost uniformly dictate the individual must needs create more lies in an effort to make the initial lie have a life, have substance, make sense in the light of said inspection.
A murderer caught says it wasn't him. A lie.
When asked where he was during the murder, the murderer says "anywhere but the scene", or concocts an alibi to sustain the lie, that has the ring of truth." . More inspection of the situation may determine facts which are opposite the murderers statement.
The best lies have the ring of truth to them, they are harder to see, to detect, because they utilize the natural truth of the situation or circumstances.
The most easily seen type of lies are omissions.
Not telling the whole of a story or situation.
They are noted by the uneasiness one feels that a hidden thing has not been integrated into the story ...a blank spot ..

Fables legends stories and myths ...they may not or may be factual or have been exaggerated or mashed together with other stories over time, but they are more truthful and have the staying power of their method of construction to prove them to be other than lies.
Whereas propaganda and manipulation to deceive doesn't .

The topic of lies and exactly what they are would fill many papers, and would make a number of great thesis ...thesises? ....thesi?
:D (moose ...meese)

As far as me and "gentle guidance" goes...
I have said more than enough on the topic in generalities ...
I go into specifics ....and it will just colour maemish and influence the direction he wishes to take.

There are plenty of online reference materials on Heraldry ...
the lists of "rules" so to speak...
easily found I would imagine...
(personally I have a few large hardcovers in my library on the standards of Heraldry)
the "rules" of construction haven't changed in centuries ..
so a specific inference is just that...
He can plot out everything quite well without my help...
start with the general background.
Then focus on the central icons involved...their positions and postures
then their colours and backgrounds ...
work from the ground up like most construction ...
a good big huge piece of paper to scribble on would help...
always helps ...
computers are great ...
but for ideas ...first...
nothing beats paper and pencil for jotting ideas .

[Maemish]

Already made a design by myself. It may or may not please others. Made a 30cm high and about 20cm wide wooden crest. Next step is to paint it. Nothing done with computer. All hand drawn and painted. Personally I think I am happy with the end result. Hope someon else too. But to please someone with a heraldic knowledge and wisdom - I think it is too hard and time taking task for me. I am a fast moving spirit, both for my benefit and loss. We'll see.

Edit: Base paint job done. I may get it finished in couple of days. So far so good.

[Maemish]

Finished the crest and put it in a new thread I opened.

[pichlo]

Finished the crest and put it in a new thread I opened.

And that thread is here, for the benefit of future generations who may not see it in Active Topics:

https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=100648