View Full Version : BBC News compares the N800, iPod Touch, Archos and PSP
Milhouse
2007-10-10, 09:36
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7033352.stm
Comparison of the N800, iPod Touch, Archos 605wifi and Sony PSP (slim)
Aside from the usual propensity for inaccuracy (eg. the Archos has the highest res/DPI and not the N800, the N800 uses miniSD) it seems a reasonably fair comparison of the devices with no particular axe to grind.
The winner (based on being the best all rounder) is the Archos 605wifi, with the iPod Touch receiving special praise while the N800 is a "hobbyist" device (is this another way of saying "toy"?) :(
For me, the important point to take away is the reviewers experience when web browsing on the iPod Touch and N800 (the PSP and Archos failing miserably here) - apart from the lack of Flash on the iPod, I'd say the reviewer is more impressed by the iPod than the N800. Which is not a good thing for a product that is billed as the "Internet Tablet" with browsing as it's main selling point.
The unique selling point of the NIT is no longer unique, nor is it even best of breed to a lay person - Nokia really need to begin adding more value to the tablet, perhaps even de-emphasising the "internet" nature of the devices and focusing on more general functionality that ordinary people can perceive as having real added value (ie. PIM synced with a mobile and PC, for starters).
EDIT: If anyone wants this moved into one of the N800/iPod threads that's fine with me however I thought it might be useful to discuss any issues raised in this "review", which is likely to be one of the most mainstream N800 reviews to date, perhaps reaching a larger and more diverse global audience than the review which appeared in the Washington Post.
The unique selling point of the NIT is no longer unique, nor is it even best of breed to a lay person - Nokia really need to begin adding more value to the tablet, perhaps even de-emphasising the "internet" nature of the devices and focusing on more general functionality that ordinary people can perceive as having real added value (ie. PIM synced with a mobile and PC, for starters).
Imho, that (de-emphasis) would be the worst thing that could possibly be done.
Milhouse
2007-10-10, 10:56
With all these "me too" devices now on the market, some of which arguably offer a better web browsing experience than the NIT (and more to come that surely will be better than the N800), does it make any sense to persist with the "Internet Tablet" theme to the exclusion of other useful functionality that will be provided by these "me too" devices? Eventually the NITs will appear limited by this naiive and slavish adherence of Nokia management to the internet meme.
NITs are fully fledged pocket computers, and restricting out-of-the-box functionality to internet browsing/communication to the detriment of all else isn't going to help sales in the long run - Nokia tablets need to be more functionally rounded devices offering a wider breadth of functionality that appeals to the general consumer. Niche devices rarely survive in the long run, and the "Internet Tablet" has "niche" written all over it.
The community can and will help develop useful software, however non-tech savvy users will consider purchasing the devices based on their out-of-box functionality rather than what may be developed by a third party as a hobby.
sachin007
2007-10-10, 11:29
The n800 will always never be good when used for the first 5-10 days..... but after the initial getting around period ..... then one will understand the true limitless possibilities it can offer. The reviewer clearly shows that he used the n800 for a very short time and in that time what really matters is the itouch's eyecandy. But after 5-10 DAYS after teh end of the honyemoon.... you cannot do much with the touch except to look at the album art... but from there on the n800 has multiple possibilities which will keep you addicted all the way.
The touch is like the beautiful wife where you would love the initial honeymoon period.... the n800 is like the true love..... she is not that pretty but is really a nice person to be with!!!
For me NITs are promising due to UMPC capabilities. I hope "N900" will strengthen this direction: slide out keyboard, USB host, maybe more RAM and CPU power.
Milhouse
2007-10-10, 11:40
@sachin007 - didn't your Mum teach you that first impressions count? :D
sachin007
2007-10-10, 11:50
@sachin007 - didn't your Mum teach you that first impressions count? :D
Thats what i thought how the world works but..... with experience i learnt otherwise..... I dont just fall for looks anymore!!
;)
sachin007
2007-10-10, 11:53
For me NITs are promising due to UMPC capabilities. I hope "N900" will strengthen this direction: slide out keyboard, USB host, maybe more RAM and CPU power.
And i am sure that nokia is going to include multi-touch and accelerometers ... that is what i think the VP meant when thought fix asked about the fcc documents.
I found just the opposite with my old Tapwave Zodiac; I shoved all sorts of apps and games and music and video on there at first, then realised that after running PalmVNC once and going "hey, VNC!", and running Doom once and going "hey, Doom!", I never bothered again, and mostly used it for the built-in stuff; contacts, the calendar, reminders, simple solitaire games to kill a couple of minutes, e-books...
I'm looking for a replacement, and the N800 and iPod Touch are at opposite ends of the spectrum; the N800 could easily do everything I'm after, and way more, but call me shallow and rescind my geek card I'm looking for something that's more "just works" than "can do anything (with sufficient poking)". The iPod Touch, on the other hand, what it does, it does brilliantly, but between Apple's crippling (disabling editing in the calendar??) and the difficulty of getting 3rd party apps on them (I thought they might turn a bit of a blind eye to hacking, like they seemed to be doing initially with the iPhone, but maybe not...), they managed to make it fall short on even the most basic PDA functions.
Imho, that (de-emphasis) would be the worst thing that could possibly be done.
Based on the comments here, I'd have to slightly disagree.
I think the connectivity is important, but nowadays it's expected. Milhouse mentioned first impressions-- well, my first impression when I see any device in the form factor we're discussing is "Surely it can browse the internet". I'm betting that's a common perception. If so, then the other strengths of the tablets need to be emphasized. Granted, that gets tricky-- most users will glaze over at the mention of Linux. But I know that there are ways to sell those features, including the potential Linux brings-- it's just a matter of some creative thinking (man I'd love to come to Helsinki for those sessions! :D).
I still say the tablet is a palmtop or somesuch laptop alternative...
I still say the tablet is a palmtop or somesuch laptop alternative...
The whole reason I purchased the N800 was to do away with carrying around a laptop. It has largely been a success, but there are areas for improvement.
Personally, I use a laptop for document editing, email and keeping track of my appointments, etc. Typical office type stuff. And the tablet can handle these tasks, although the apps need updating. Media playing we've got sorted out. Browsing we've got sorted out. Microb is actually a fine browser. But for office applications, the tablet is average, at best. Yes, we have Abiword - an ancient version - working. Yes we have GPE. But they could be so much more. I really think that Nokia would do well to actually pay opensource developers to concentrate on office apps and get current, polished versions out there. Once they're out there and advertised as stable, current working apps, I think more people would consider the tablet instead of the much more expensive UMPCs.
R.
==
What tickles me is the apposite categorisation of the N800 as a ‘hobbyist device’ which I think is intended to refer to the users.
Ironically the reviewer seems oblivious to the fact that the real hobbyist involved is the Nokia division in charge of N800 development – which seems to be totally distracted by its demanding day job.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7033352.stm
I'd say the reviewer is more impressed by the iPod than the N800. Which is not a good thing for a product that is billed as the "Internet Tablet" with browsing as it's main selling point.
I would take BBC News reviews of Apple products with a pinch of salt, they tend to give prominence to Apple stories which aren't really deserved. For example iPods and iPhones regularly feature on their main 3 large items on the front page of the international edition, something they rarely do for other consumer products. Those items are normally about revolutions or natural disasters or Prime Ministers being assassinated, world-changing stuff. I just can't see how firmware problems on the iPhone really rank up there with governments being toppled, yet there they are side by side.
BBC News are similarly in love with Blackberries, and regularly claim that Blackberries were the first devices to offer mobile email (which just isn't true, they were the first to offer PUSH email, but there were phones and PDAs with mobile POP email for many years before the Blackberry). When there was the possibility of Blackberry services being switched off in the US, the BBC News site treated it with the same gravity as that major power cut in New York. When there was that Russian assassinated in London using Polonium 210, the live on-the-scene reporter started demonstrating how to buy Polonium 210 using her Blackberry. The camera couldn't really see a thing, but there you are...
The unique selling point of the NIT is no longer unique
I would be more worried if it did remain unique, it would simply confirm all that initial scepticism that much of the tech world had about how the 770 and N800 were pointless devices without a clear audience.
The iPod Touch and iPhone show that there IS a clear audience for a small, relatively low-powered portable internet tablet. The actual size of the audience is unclear, and it may be that it's largely confined to the USA (which has generally been the case with PDAs), but it does exist. It shows that Nokia wasn't crazy to start developing a gadget like this.
IMO problem with NIT's direction lies elsewhere. Today Internet is something obvious. It is part of everything. But only part of it. You are listening to music, go to WP check facts on artist; you are preparing meeting, make reservation through WWW, etc., etc. Making device which only - or even primary function - is browsing of Internet is dead-end. Nokia has to evolve.
Going into media is suicide - iPod is entrenched very solidly there. The only direction which offers no road block in form of competition is general computing thing. Not because there are no competitors but area to cover is so big that no one player can conquer it.
Opensourceness of Nokia's tablets can be big asset here in long term.
Milhouse
2007-10-10, 21:44
@Krisse
I would agree to a point, but I believe the BBC knows it's readership reasonably well, and spatters it's front pages (UK or World news) with a mixture of articles both serious and less so in order to maintain a healthy balance.
The obsession with Apple is a little disturbing, as is their obsession with Microsoft but then these are two of the largest and most often discussed tech companies on the planet, and Blackberries are carried by a significant percentage of the BBC's target audience. Any wildly popular consumer item - think Xbox 360 or PS3 - will receive coverage on the BBC precisely because it's popular, the BBC knows what "normal" people want to read about while you and I would prefer to get more detailed analysis (and even accurate reporting!) from our favourite tech news site, and not the BBC! :)
On the whole though, I think the N800 got a reasonably fair shake from the BBC - and the Apple iPod wasn't the clear winner! :D
I agree 110% that Nokia were right to show the world that there is a market for portable internet browsing, however I now feel that the world+dog has caught up with Nokia and will soon surpass Nokia unless Nokia broaden the horizons for the tablets. I don't mean that Nokia should now ignore the internet (there's still more to be done there), or limit the tablets connectivity options (plenty more there too!) but I do believe there is a wealth of "local" and non-internet related functionality (apps) that are missing from the tablets which will be provided by the competition, leaving Nokia for dead.
I must be patient though, the secrecy of Nokia leaves me speculating about their demise (as far as tablets are concerned!) rather than marvelling at what is coming! :)
The winner (based on being the best all rounder) is the Archos 605wifi, with the iPod Touch receiving special praise while the N800 is a "hobbyist" device (is this another way of saying "toy"?) :(
Maybe a hobbyist device meant in the same way as a certain hobbyist operating system (http://www.oracle.com/technology/oramag/oracle/07-jan/o17field.html): "Once regarded as a hobbyist operating system, Linux now has a place at most enterprises, and its adoption is increasing."
Anyway, I have to agree that first impression counts. Nokia really should either fix the default apps, or replace them with better community-built ones.
I would be more worried if it did remain unique, it would simply confirm all that initial scepticism that much of the tech world had about how the 770 and N800 were pointless devices without a clear audience.
BINGO! My point exactly.
Maybe a hobbyist device meant in the same way as a certain hobbyist operating system (http://www.oracle.com/technology/oramag/oracle/07-jan/o17field.html): "Once regarded as a hobbyist operating system, Linux now has a place at most enterprises, and its adoption is increasing."
Anyway, I have to agree that first impression counts. Nokia really should either fix the default apps, or replace them with better community-built ones.
Also agreed.
IMO problem with NIT's direction lies elsewhere. Today Internet is something obvious. It is part of everything. But only part of it. You are listening to music, go to WP check facts on artist; you are preparing meeting, make reservation through WWW, etc., etc. Making device which only - or even primary function - is browsing of Internet is dead-end. Nokia has to evolve.
Going into media is suicide - iPod is entrenched very solidly there. The only direction which offers no road block in form of competition is general computing thing. Not because there are no competitors but area to cover is so big that no one player can conquer it.
Opensourceness of Nokia's tablets can be big asset here in long term.
Also also agreed. :D
ciaopubs
2007-10-10, 23:50
The winner (based on being the best all rounder) is the Archos 605wifi, with the iPod Touch receiving special praise while the N800 is a "hobbyist" device (is this another way of saying "toy"?) :(
No, it's a way of saying that users can muck around with the software guts of the machine -- maybe even that they have to in order to accomplish a lot of stuff. Short of hacks, third-party software can't be installed on the iPod, and I would assume is at least discouraged on the PSP and probably the Archos, but it's clearly encouraged on the N800.
The penultimate section of the article is pretty clear on what they mean:
The N800 is an open platform - which means many third-party developers have built applications, such as instant messaging, internet telephony, productivity and blog editors.
...and I would assume is at least discouraged on the PSP and probably the Archos, but it's clearly encouraged on the N800.
[/I]
Actually, if I remember correctly, many press reviews of the Archos indicated that most of the Qtopia stuff available or the zaurus was easily installable. Whether of not Archos agreed, the press sure talked that aspect up.
R.
==
Let's see, a few minutes ago I just used my N800 to VPN into my network at work and hit up my Nagios monitor to acknowledge a service failure.
Yeah...ummm...let me know when the Archos or iPhone/Touch can do that.
@Iball
Good. That means Nxxx is good for IT professionals, now task for Nokia: make it work for other types of professionals.
tubbycricket
2007-10-11, 07:37
N800 is king. Here at my school Penn State, we have a stubborn VPN network that makes any portable(not laptop) wifi device utterly useless. Everyone here is always dismayed that iphone or ipod touch or similar devices cannot take advantage of our school's wifi. Then comes Nokia with its N800 which miraculously has tools like VPNC which just simply works. I swear, watching wikipedia load up on my N800 using PSU's VPN was the "clutch moment" of my N800, and it has won me over with that feature alone. What good is an ipod touch to me if it can't even connect to my school's wifi? Worthless.
Roc Ingersol
2007-10-11, 13:28
I find that most people consider the Nokia a hobbyist device for the same reason the desktop computer was considered a hobbyist device for so long.
Simply put: it can do so much that they have a hard time nailing down just what the thing is. No two users use it quite the same way. So they fixate on the overall UI and the lack of standardization across apps and leave with the impression that 'it has no real specialization' (which isn't even a bad thing).
But it leaves everything up to the user. So when you run into a user with a lack of a particular need, or a simple lack of imagination, they don't know where to start.
I also find that when people say they prefer the iphone browsing experience, they're generally referring to the OS' responsiveness. microb generally does a better job, of actually delivering web pages, ime. And the constant tapping to zoom in and out just to browse around on that dinky iPhone resolution is pretty annoying.
But the iphone UI very rarely hitches. Even when a site is mid-render, you can flip to another app or tab, zoom in on a section that's already loaded, etc. - and the OS doesn't miss a beat.
Milhouse
2007-10-11, 13:59
But the iphone UI very rarely hitches. Even when a site is mid-render, you can flip to another app or tab, zoom in on a section that's already loaded, etc. - and the OS doesn't miss a beat.
Totally agree here - I've just had my first hands on demonstration of an iPhone and the UI responsiveness is simply astonishing when I compare it with my N800 or Symbian UIQ smartphone.
I've never understood what kind of definition these people use for 'hobbyist'. I started using Linux on the desktop years ago because of _professional needs_ which nothing else (certainly not a certain 'legacy OS') could provide, and I bought and use my N800 for _professional needs_.
I find that most people consider the Nokia a hobbyist device for the same reason the desktop computer was considered a hobbyist device for so long.
Simply put: it can do so much that they have a hard time nailing down just what the thing is. No two users use it quite the same way. So they fixate on the overall UI and the lack of standardization across apps and leave with the impression that 'it has no real specialization' (which isn't even a bad thing).
But it leaves everything up to the user. So when you run into a user with a lack of a particular need, or a simple lack of imagination, they don't know where to start.
I also find that when people say they prefer the iphone browsing experience, they're generally referring to the OS' responsiveness. microb generally does a better job, of actually delivering web pages, ime. And the constant tapping to zoom in and out just to browse around on that dinky iPhone resolution is pretty annoying.
But the iphone UI very rarely hitches. Even when a site is mid-render, you can flip to another app or tab, zoom in on a section that's already loaded, etc. - and the OS doesn't miss a beat.
Another excellent analysis from you, and I agree. Which is why a while back I likened the 770/N800 experience to the PC AT/XT experience. The tablets currently require the same sort of sophistication those devices did. And that's actually to be expected given their little computer nature-- which is why I think that those impatient for the "it should just work" advent are missing the point. Yes, the tablets definitely need to get there... but as long as Nokia is in this for the long haul I have come to where I don't mind slow, steady, deliberate progress. But then, I have a personal stake here... as for other users, I would think that if they hold no allegiance to Nokia then they will happily move to whichever manufacturer gets this market right (I doubt it will be Apple because I think more openness is required). That is the challenge to Nokia: patience has its limits. Hopefully the development is being managed properly behind the scenes...
Greyghost
2007-10-11, 17:08
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7033352.stm
The unique selling point of the NIT is no longer unique, nor is it even best of breed to a lay person - Nokia really need to begin adding more value to the tablet, perhaps even de-emphasising the "internet" nature of the devices and focusing on more general functionality that ordinary people can perceive as having real added value (ie. PIM synced with a mobile and PC, for starters).
Milhouse,
Your comments are always appreciated and I enjoy your critical approach, without which we'd have no progress. I am, however, of the opinion that "de-emphasising" the "internet nature" of the tablet is not right. Quite to the contratry, it is the very nature of the improving services on the internet that makes me have no use, really , for 'local' apps that are in sync with my pc. After all, it's getting so you can keep eveything on the internet. Me, I am google child, but it's just one way of doing this. I read my mail, keep my calendar, store my documents, keep my journal, post my photo albums, and listen to music, all online.
Why download it all if I can just get to it whenever I want? Of course, we don't have ubiquitous wif-fi...yet....so of course you have to be in a wi-fi spot, but then, if I'm reading my mail, why would I do that in a place where I can't, a) have the latest content and b) reply? I can, of course, use my phone if I'm in a pinch, but mostly I can just wait till I get to work or back home, or the coffee shop, etc.
This brings up an issue I've thought of but don't see addressed (often) here. This is about the ownership of content. Why do I 'need' to 'own' my content? What I really want, is to 'get' my content. And, the more of it that I accumulate, the harder is is to keep it organized unless I use the internet. All these Google tools are no accident, of course. It takes a while for most people to realize that the way they 'own' and 'get' content is changing. Maybe we don't all need 300terragig (made-up word alert) drives...maybe only Google needs one of those.
Of course, I want to 'own' my documents, but where do I want to keep them? In my hard drive where I have to remember where I put them (or do an agonizing search that looks at every system file) or up on the web where I can see, edit and link to them without having to save and file? Using tags makes adds the meta-data that makes it usable as a stream to other content portals (like a blog or photo album). Online tools are good and only getting better. What I really want, and have:) is a tool to access my stuff like the N800. TR is right, I'm the user that'd move on in a heartbeat if someone comes up with something better. I'm not a programmer, nor a hobbyist, and of course, I love my N800!
In this context, my N800 doesn't have a competitor...yet. Hopefully Nokia will provide it in the form of the N900!
Out of all the portable devices, I think the N800 is the only Nokia device that gets it right with VPNC.
Someone go call Nokia and tell them the world has decided that their VPN kit is not the "standard", definitely not the easiest to deploy, and certainly not the cheapest.
Cisco's PIX firewall is. Even with that crappy Java applet GUI.
Seriously, have ANY of you out there tried to get a Nokia S60 3rd Edition device to use VPN over wi-fi? It's a major pain-in-the-***. The N800 w/VPNC client however, just imports my PCF file and connects in less than a second.
My work Blackberry? Forget it! Requires the latest BES to be installed on the Exchange server so it can push out a VPN cert to the BB handheld. Another pain-in-the-***.
When are the phone manufacturers who keep slapping wi-fi in their devices going to figure out that YES Virginia, there is such a thing as "easy VPN" access?
Face it, "professionals" REQUIRE VPN, period. If you're working for a "professional" company who deploys secure wi-fi on their networks and it's tucked away BEHIND the PIX, then your IT folks are fcuking *****s.
SO far, looking at this from a "professional" aspect, the N800 is the only one who even comes close to getting it right even with the total lack of PIM functionality. I guess if a "professional" needed PIM functions they'd log into OWA 2003/2007.
And true business professionals in the US do NOT use either the N800 nor the iPhone.
They use a Blackberry/Treo/Windows Mobile device.
I know. The company I now work for issued me this strange device called a "Blackberry Curve 8320". Guess who told them what to buy? Me.
Did I want them to issue me an E90 Communicator? Damn right I did, but I'm a realist. No fcuking way were they gong to pay $800-$900 for just a PHONE for me or anyone else. In the end they took my business plan of Curve 8320s for everyone with UMA over the in-house secure wi-fi and BES-deployed VPN solution for those of us who need to get to critical web servers.
Now, with the advent of Blackberry Connect for Symbian, that could one day change if Nokia were to toss out a QWERTY-based device that had wi-fi and GPS and not cost a crapload, but not today.
I find the lack of built-in easy-to-use Cisco VPN capability across all of Nokia's product poorly lacking. That's one thing corporate IT departments are looking for! Nail that and BAM! Sales out the wazoo once they figure out how to market something in the US.
Milhouse
2007-10-11, 20:39
Milhouse,
Your comments are always appreciated and I enjoy your critical approach, without which we'd have no progress.
Thanks, though sometimes I think I may rant a little too often (I should cut down on the caffeine!) :)
I am, however, of the opinion that "de-emphasising" the "internet nature" of the tablet is not right. Quite to the contratry, it is the very nature of the improving services on the internet that makes me have no use, really , for 'local' apps that are in sync with my pc. After all, it's getting so you can keep eveything on the internet. Me, I am google child, but it's just one way of doing this. I read my mail, keep my calendar, store my documents, keep my journal, post my photo albums, and listen to music, all online.
Maybe I should clarify my "de-emphasising" comment - I don't mean Nokia should forget about the internet, or stop using the internet to provide innovative services. On the contrary, that should continue however the internet is no longer the be all and end all as far as mobile devices are concerned.
The Nokia attitude is that the NITs are called "Internet Tablets" and their functionality is just that - internet accessing tablets. Not PDAs, or PIMs, or any other device category that may interest buyers. "If the application doesn't access the internet it has no place on the tablet - to hell with what people actually want!" seems to be what they are saying! Even the FM Radio application recently acquired internet access (though I admit the addition is useful, it also confirms my theory!) :)
I would like Nokia to take a step back, and realise that they have a computing device capable of so much more than just browsing the internet, accessing email, RSS feeds or streaming audio and video. The devices have the communication capabilities to be the mobile phone companion the Palm Folio aspired to be; local applications can use the internet to sync data - maybe Ovi will provide the online data storage services, and PIM functionality would ensure the NIT devices stop being mere toys for entertainment and transform them into useful life management tools.
If left to run unchecked, this Nokia obsession with the internet could be considered harmful in the long run! :)
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