Can the N810 become my new business device?

[Munk]

Wow, first post and to talk about replacing my Windows Mobile device.

Some background:
Well, I've had a N800 for about five months now and love it. I have done the mods to boot from internal SD card. I've installed XFCE and KDE and played lots and lots with them. I've installed so many programs and tried them all even ones from red pill mode or is it blue? But, I also own a Windows Mobile device with VGA screen and integrated GPS (Fujitsu N560). I wish, wish, wish that I could replace it completely and use my N800 but simply cannot. The N800 is way too darn slow when it comes to looking up contacts. Browsing and looking at PDF manuals that I have stored on the device also is a bit of a sore spot too. And then there is the GPS and the software that I use at least 4 times a day since I visit different businesses in different cities five days of the week.

Can the N810 replace my WM device?
If I were to make a decision to switch away from Windows Mobile to the new N810 I would have to say that nothing has really changed from the N800 in this respect. In fact, now that programs that ran fine on the N800 no longer work on the N810, until they are recompiled for the Chinook 2008 OS, then I'm moving even further away from my target. The GPS that is included doesn't do navigation without paying $130 for three years? WTF? Maemo Mapper, which I've tried to use, doesn't work since I don't have internet connection to get routes while on the road. The Nokia contact manager takes about 40 freaking seconds to finish showing my list of contacts and is useless. The GPE contact manager doesn't import my Outlook contacts correctly. The Nokia file manager takes about 12 seconds to list all of the PDF's in one directory and is slow to navigate to the correct folder. From videos I've seen of the GPS navigation software, it takes minutes to look up POI's because the lists are slow too. Is the only thing I can do is to leave all of these programs running and then switch between them? AAARRRRRGGGHHHHH!!!!

The N810 seems like it will fix the following problems:

Smaller form factor allows me to carry it on me everywhere
Keyboard will, possibly, make key entry faster
Nicer screen will allow, out in the sun, work to get done
Chinook OS2008 brings the CPU speed up to 400MHz (faster)


But the N810 will have the following problems too:

Programs have to be recompiled to Chinook
Keyboard has been criticized as being kind of awful
GPS software costs $130 for three years
You wont initially be able to boot from SD card
My normal sized SD cards are now useless (Mini SD used on N810)


Does anyone have suggestions for the following??

Fast, functional GPS software
Fast Contact Manager for over 100 contacts
Fast file browsing and PDF viewer with landscape option
Syncing with Outlook for Calendar, Contacts and ToDo?


Sorry, this turned more into a rant than "Can the N810 become my new business device". The answer is, I doubt it. :(

[spacey]

Syncing with Outlook for Calendar, Contacts and ToDo?


This is a huge barrier. I was just discussing the inability to 'sync' with Outlook Calendar today. (crazy - really I was...)

It's not so much email that is the problem, but it's the rich calendar in Outlook. I have this exact problem with Mozilla Thunderbird on the desktop.

As far as actual office apps - have you tried the GPE apps? GPE Calendar is really nice....

BTW what speed memory cards are you using? And does anyone know if mem card speed has any difference on the speed of listing directories and/or PDF reading? (Where's the bottleneck, etc.)

[RioT]

I've been using the o-hand contacts. It seems to run alot better for me than the gpe contacts and the crappy contacts that came with the os. I dont know about outlook. I havent used it in years. I did import contacts from Vcard format so maybe you can export them from that. I dunno..... I love the n800 about as much as I hate it....

[bunanson]

And then there is the GPS and the software that I use at least 4 times a day since I visit different businesses in different cities five days of the week.
The N810 seems like it will fix the following problems:

Smaller form factor allows me to carry it on me everywhere
Keyboard will, possibly, make key entry faster
Nicer screen will allow, out in the sun, work to get done
Chinook OS2008 brings the CPU speed up to 400MHz (faster)


But the N810 will have the following problems too:

Programs have to be recompiled to Chinook
Keyboard has been criticized as being kind of awful
GPS software costs $130 for three years
You wont initially be able to boot from SD card
My normal sized SD cards are now useless (Mini SD used on N810)


Does anyone have suggestions for the following??

Fast, functional GPS software
Fast Contact Manager for over 100 contacts
Fast file browsing and PDF viewer with landscape option
Syncing with Outlook for Calendar, Contacts and ToDo?

. :(

I am in quite similar situations except I do not travel as much as you do, and also 'depends' on my winCE (a Dell) on my business. I also tried very hard to leave my winCE at home but I cant. I have not been able to txf contacts to the Nokia and I have to use Citrix and a drug book, both have not been ported to the tablet yet:( . Other than that, I use everything with my 770. With everything you mentioned above, the GPS system is the least of your problem. Maemo maps does not require internet to use, one just have to dl the route into the tablet before trip, with being said, it is much convenient to have inet access during use. The Nokia 130$/3yr is for an upgrade service like voice turn-to-turn, i.e., most people may not opt for that.


bun

[Moonshine]

IMO, the answer is "not by itself". :| However, chances are good that you are using some sort of cell phone with your N800. If you add that to the equation and make a good choice then I think you'd be there.

I use a Motorola Q / N800 combo. I have over 200 contacts on the Q and of course it does full Outlook syncing, etc. Also does Slingbox, Google maps app, Live Search, etc. As for "fast browsing" and "pdf", I use my N800 for browsing and PDF, and expect the OS2008 update (or the N810) to be even better. By using PDAnet with the Q I also get bluetooth DUN for the N800 without teathering fees. I'm sure other phones would fit this description as well.

Just a thought.

[YoDude]

It depends on the "business". If you travel, and only need access to documents and e-mail for reference... yes

If your "business" requires that you update documents and databases while on the road... no.

My business is 24/7 and dynamic. But it primarily manages people and projects who's activities and scope have already been defined. For this management, I need access even when I'm traveling for pleasure. (Unless I want to deal with a Monday morning ShytStorm cold. :D )

For me, the tablet has completely replaced a notebook, and assorted wires and attachments in this regard. The pocket PC never did do connectivity or browsing well so it was never an option.

Not carrying a notebook has also improved my quality of life as I would tend to "work" on documents that could wait until Monday.

[Munk]

Wow, thanks everyone for being very helpful and not attacking or making fun of something I said. I saw what happened to the guy who accidentally wrote N8100 instead of N810.

Spacey:
The syncing / quick usability of the tablet is definetely a HUGE problem that Nokia seems to refuse to acknowledge or take strides to improve. I believe Nokia is losing business because of these inabilities. Especially when I tell people who have asked me point blank, "can it sync with Outlook".... NO!!

I do use GPE Calendar and that one is pretty good other than no direct syncing. I found that there is a free downloadable javascript that will take Outlook information and create an ".ics" file that can be imported into GPE Calendar. Even though you might already be using it, here is the link for others:
http://www.ryanwatkins.net/software/

Oh, and booting from different SD cards seems to make little difference between the actual cards themselves. But, just booting from an SD card in general does dramatically improve the booting of the N800. It doesn't seem to help the Nokia's file-managers ability to navigate around.

RioT:
Oooh, thanks for that tip on o-hand. I installed it and it sees all of the contacts that I have already imported into the Nokia Contact Manager. It is much faster on bringing up my list of contacts taking about 8 seconds to display them all as opposed to 40 or so with the Nokia's. Why can't it be 1 second like on my Windows Mobile device? This is definetely an improvement on usability and speed but far from a perfect solution. Hopefully a newer verison will bring even more help.

bunanson:
Thanks for the tip on pre-downloading my routes. My problem is that I usually am not sure where my next customer will be until I finish up the current customer. I would need to download a new route, on the spot, to get to the next location. Maybe the soon to be released version 2 will add offline route planning? That would rock.

Oh, I might have misread the statement about the $130 every 3 years. I thought it said for "route planning" you need to pay for that option. Turn-by-turn is good but the route is paramount. I'll wait it a little bit longer until some clarity on the subject comes along.

Moonshine:
True, the N800 is good in syncing with a Bluetooth phone and getting data. My problem is the speed of my T-Mobile Edge/GPRS connection really bites. So, when I am in need of getting into my vehicle, receiving my location for the next customer, typing it into my GPS and then going, the whole process is much slower. I truthfully haven't given this a try, and it might be an excellent solution. So during this week I'll see how it turns out.

The "fast browsing" isn't meant to be an attack on the Internet browsing functionality which I believe is awesome on the N800. It's meant to be an attack on the Nokia's File-Manager which takes forever to finish "Updating..." as I browse through folders. It almost seems that Nokia purposely put delays into the code when listing folder contents. It's not the Maemo file system as I can be in Xterminal and type "ls" to list 100 files in a second. But, if you tried to list the same folder in Nokia's file manager it would take about a half-day to finish. ;)

YoDude:
Excellent points you make. There are some phenominal applications on the N800 such as Claws Mail for email, the various web browsers (Opera, MicroB, Minimo), Pidgin for instant messaging (I wish it used the camera though), plus many more. Just it depends on who needs what and if it is ported to the tablet yet. In most of my cases, the tablet has replaced my laptop too, it's just it hasn't replaced my Windows Mobile device,,, yet.


Thanks everybody. It seems a few of us agree that Nokia is kind of blowing it with the lack of PIM connectivity. I know that there are a million other rants on this subject in this forum but I'm still looking at whether the N810 is going to improve my situation or not. ** sigh **

[JeffElkins]

The GPS that is included doesn't do navigation without paying $130 for three years? WTF?

Munk, this issue alone has probably made the N810 a no-go for me. Personally, I think it's a terrible rip-off. You're actually looking at a $600.00 N810, not a $480.00 device.

Jeff

[YoDude]

Munk, this issue alone has probably made the N810 a no-go for me. Personally, I think it's a terrible rip-off. You're actually looking at a $600.00 N810, not a $480.00 device.

Jeff

Jeff...
This point has been made clear in many other threads... And again I can't see how Nokia giving you something you didn't have before for free is a rip off.

>> http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=85175#post85175

This is an enthusiasts site, and you are enthusiastic about your point of view. My advice is that should enthusiastically not buy the dang thing.


Munk, good luck with your intended use. More and more web 2.0 apps are coming on-line everyday and I hope you can find one that fills your needs.

BTW, Nokia's new Mosh >> http://mosh.nokia.com/ may somehow help with future syncs.

[JeffElkins]

Jeff...
This point has been made clear in many other threads... And again I can't see how Nokia giving you something you didn't have before for free is a rip off.

>> http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=85175#post85175

This is an enthusiasts site, and you are enthusiastic about your point of view. My advice is that should enthusiastically not buy the dang thing.

In other words STFU? :)

Sorry, I don't see it that way. It was vocal 700/800 users that brought about changes leading to the N810. This is nothing more than a management decision that could easily be rectified before the N810 ships. It's software, not hardware, and Nokia folks read this forum...perhaps expressing my opinion will help change policy.

Enthusiastically,

Jeff

[Greyghost]

It depends on the "business". If you travel, and only need access to documents and e-mail for reference... yes

If your "business" requires that you update documents and databases while on the road... no.

Not carrying a notebook has also improved my quality of life as I would tend to "work" on documents that could wait until Monday.

These are sentiments I share, especially the last, which is what the N800 has really done for me. It's the same reason I abandoned the blackberry after our brief affair; I really need to check my email and read my attachments to avoid the s**storms. Even though I 'want' to be able to 'work' on my mobile device, I'm learning that I can and should just wait to work on docs at a full desktop. If that''s later today or tomorrow, 'c'est la vie'! I know...right, trying telling that to my boss;)

I don't travel, so your concerns (esp, regards to GPS & Outlook), are, I believe quite valid and perhaps sufficient to deter you fro making the purchase. However, since you already own the N800 perhaps you'll find enough of value to keep it 'in the bag' once you get the new OS!

[YoDude]

These are sentiments I share, especially the last, which is what the N800 has really done for me. It's the same reason I abandoned the blackberry after our brief affair; I really need to check my email and read my attachments to avoid the s**storms. Even though I 'want' to be able to 'work' on my mobile device, I'm learning that I can and should just wait to work on docs at a full desktop. If that''s later today or tomorrow, 'c'est la vie'! I know...right, trying telling that to my boss;) ...



Yup, in a way the tablet is a device I can and do enjoy all by its own self. The fact that it runs Claws mail helps justify my bringing it along and because I often know how to act before walking on the job in some cases... well that's just a bonus.

[spacey]

Does this do anything for us?

http://www.cobb.uk.net/770/#opensync

[hircus]

Maemo Mapper can download the maps for a given route in advance, I believe. And keep them cached, so you can use it without Internet access.

[mdanehart]

Have you checked the spec's on the new HP 211 Enterprise w/4 inch VGA screen and Windows Mobile 6? I will weigh the both out in the next 30 day's or so..

[merovingian]

...Not without much much better support for business apps or at least compatible apps to handle word, excel and powerpoint..

[Munk]

mdanehart,
Wow, no I didn't see that, it looks impressive. But, I have used enough Windows Mobile devices to know that Internet browsing is horrible on this operating system. I've used Netfront, Opera, Minimo and others and they are just slow unlike the tablet. Then when you factor in the VGA screen (640x480) it's not optimized for most web pages that target at least 800x600 displays.

Here is the link I was looking at:
http://pocketpccentral.net/ipaq_211.htm

It does solve a few problems that I have though. Thanks for the info.

[ImDisaster]

This is exactly where I think Nokia is really missing a huge customer base with the n770/n800/n810.

They need "business" software preinstalled.

Palm continues to sell an antiquated operating system because it syncs well and the basic PDA stuff is there. Blackberry sells phones because they sync...especially with email.

The Nokia falls somewhere between the fun media players like the Archos 605 and the Ipod touch and the more buisness oriented Palm and Windows Mobile devices...and it does neither as well as those devices do. That leaves the n-series for geeks and guys with toy budgets.

Oh, you could say it has a more "compatible" web browser, but the average person wouldn't even notice...the Iphone's browser is slick. You could say it is open source but again, the average person could give a darn. They want something to work...not that they have to learn to work.

Nokia should actively develop a simple software suite for the n-series that lets it do the following.

1. Sync contacts, tasks and email with Outlook.
2. Read Word, Excel and Powerpoint docs.
3. Word processor with ability to translate to Word.
4. Spreadsheet program with ability to translate to Excel.
5. Decent IMAP email program.

I do think the future is web-based programs. I've already started migrating to using Google's calendar and am trialing several different todo list and project web software. These are great, when you can get on the web, but the always connected thing doesn't always work and it is nice to know you have a cache on your device. For example, on my Palm Treo I use Goosync to transfer Google calendar to the Palm calendar.

We need someone (seems logical to be lead by Nokia since they are selling the hardware) to step up in the Open Source community and provide an OpenOfficeLite that works on mobile devices. We need someone to add a good PIM suite to it and then you'd have something that could compete with MS Office and Windows Mobile devices.

Until and unless Nokia gets serious about the business crowd, the n-series will remain a niche item for geeks.

[Texrat]

Until and unless Nokia gets serious about the business crowd, the n-series will remain a niche item for geeks.

Nokia is being pedantic about what n-series means, which is multimedia.

While I agree with your sentiments, and wish for some sort of nod to business users, until (and if) there are e-series tablets I don't know how much more will be done in this context.

[TA-t3]

Oooh, thanks for that tip on o-hand. I installed it and it sees all of the contacts that I have already imported into the Nokia Contact Manager. It is much faster on bringing up my list of contacts taking about 8 seconds to display them all as opposed to 40 or so with the Nokia's. Why can't it be 1 second like on my Windows Mobile device?
One reason it's faster on the Windows Mobile device is that those devices are set up differently: The N800 loads the contacts application, as well as the contacts themselves from internal storage (the internal flash, which is like a harddisk in this respect). The Windows Mobile device, on the other hand, keeps everything in RAM (memory) all the time. The RAM is divided into run-time memory (where applications execute when they're active), and a RAM-disk part. This is _fast_. The drawback is twofold: 1) When you run out of battery you lose all your applications and data, except what's pre-installed in what's called ROM on those devices (which is really just like the internal flash in the N800), and 2) You lose half or more of your RAM because of the applications stored there. So your applications can't be as big as the N800's apps, which is why just recompiling a desktop version for the N800 actually works (even without Hildonizing, you just have to execute it from inside an xterm).

One way which will probably improve on the contacts load time is to modify your N800 to boot and run from the internal SD card. This is because the internal 256MB flash uses a compressed file system, which by itself slows things down a little bit, while a filesystem on an SD card won't have to be compressed. If you can get it to work reliably with the 48MHz SD patches then it could be even faster.
Then there's the new upcoming OS2008 which increases the clock frequency of the N800 from 330MHz to 400MHz, this could improve on the access to internal flash, as the CPU is involved in accessing the compressed file system.

[ImDisaster]

Nokia is being pedantic about what n-series means, which is multimedia.

While I agree with your sentiments, and wish for some sort of nod to business users, until (and if) there are e-series tablets I don't know how much more will be done in this context.

I think you are being pedantic about using the word pedantic. ;-)

Unfortunately, if the n-series is Nokia's answer to multimedia, they are way out of their league. There are all kinds of devices that do that job better (like the aforementioned Archos 605 or Ipod touch.)

Maybe, like you said, they will get there head in the game and release an e-series version. It wouldn't even have to have any hardware changes. Just give it the necessary software.

[Roc Ingersol]

Yeah... claiming 'n-series' on 'Why isn't there decent PIM apps by default?' is serious weaksauce when you look at the video bandwidth situation.*

Regardless of the business justifications, the basic truth remains:
The advantages of the NITs come from their flexibility.
The weaknesses of the NITs come from their flexibility.

They won't do GPS as well as a GPS device.**
They won't do Media as well as a Media device.**
They won't do PIM as well as a PIM device.**

The saving grace, of course, is that you can carry an n800 and do a little bit of all those things. You don't need a Mogul and a Garmin and an Archos. For people who need top-shelf implementations of those functions, the NITs may not be a solution. But nothing comes close to offering all of that in one package, so you shouldn't discount this one device simply because it can't do everything, out of the box, at $480.


* If they're serious about it, Nokia should seriously consider a new letter-line for tablet computing. Because there's nothing about a hypothetical e810 that wouldn't just be a software fix. And fixes to the video bandwidth problem would help video calling just as much as media apps.

** Not that they shouldn't be working their butts off to close the gap.

[Texrat]

Maybe the tablets should have been sponsored by a (nonexistent) new group, and carry a different letter designator. Hmm... "i" has been spoken for... maybe "t"?

Then the t1000 will be nearly indestructable, right? And the t2000 would morph...