I'm surprised: Comparing the N800 and the N810

[frethop]

I really want to like the N810. Really I do!

This weekend I have been using my N810 and comparing it to my N800 with OS2008. I'm surprised by my reactions. Here are some:

The N810 is heavier. All that metal makes it a little heavier in my hand and a little less convenient to toss around.
The N810 is a little smaller. Mostly, it's less wide. For me, this makes it harder to hold onto.
I keep putting my thumb on the ambient light sensor. I usually hold with my left hand and use the stylus with my right. My thumb naturally blocks the light sensor and the screen automatically darkens.
The D-pad thing really annoys me. When I'm using FBReader to read a book, I'm used to rotating with the DPad. Now I have to fiddle with a menu or open the keyboard.
Displaying menus when apps are in fullscreen mode requires the slideout keyboard. Pop any application into full screen mode -- say, the Web browser -- and you can't access the app menu without (a) taking it out of fullscreen mode or (b) opening the keyboard just for the menu key.


Yes, these are little niggles. But they are niggles that are not present on an N800 with OS2008. The menu point above is especially annoying. I can't even exit an application without using the keyboard to pull up the menu (I know: I could use the HOME key to exit using the list of applications). As I wrote in another thread (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12212), I don't like the mapping software. So I'm left with an internal GPS and a slideout keyboard as the only benefits to using the N810. They might be good, but for me, I don't use them all the time -- not near enough to balance the items above.

And the N800 has removeable memory cards that are more standard.

So I'm struggling here to choose the N810 over the N800. Maybe I should just stop whining!

What do others of you think? Are there other reasons to really move to the N810? Am I whining too much?

[Tuxedosteve]

The memory card situation isn't as bad as it seems. I've just ordered a microSD card with adapters for miniSD and SD. miniSD cards seem pretty hard to come by for some reason. I can't see why Nokia chose them over micro but since I can use micro with an adapter it's not too bad.

[Capt'n Corrupt]

The D-pad thing really annoys me. When I'm using FBReader to read a book, I'm used to rotating with the DPad. Now I have to fiddle with a menu or open the keyboard.
Displaying menus when apps are in fullscreen mode requires the slideout keyboard. Pop any application into full screen mode -- say, the Web browser -- and you can't access the app menu without (a) taking it out of fullscreen mode or (b) opening the keyboard just for the menu key.


....

What do others of you think? Are there other reasons to really move to the N810? Am I whining too much?

I don't think you're whining too much; they are valid complaints. To be honest, I think it's more a function of the software than the hardware layout. Given the infancy of the Nxxx devices, the software should be better designed to account for setup changes.

Requiring the buttons for simple features is bad design IMO. The touchscreen is large enough to completely accommodate most simple inputs quickly and efficiently.

Here's to hoping software designers start considering HOW users will interact with their software, rather than relying on old-and-tired paradigms.


}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n Corrupt

[promethh]

I really want to like the N810. Really I do!

This weekend I have been using my N810 and comparing it to my N800 with OS2008. I'm surprised by my reactions. Here are some:

The N810 is heavier. All that metal makes it a little heavier in my hand and a little less convenient to toss around.
The N810 is a little smaller. Mostly, it's less wide. For me, this makes it harder to hold onto.
I keep putting my thumb on the ambient light sensor. I usually hold with my left hand and use the stylus with my right. My thumb naturally blocks the light sensor and the screen automatically darkens.
The D-pad thing really annoys me. When I'm using FBReader to read a book, I'm used to rotating with the DPad. Now I have to fiddle with a menu or open the keyboard.


I've had the same issues with my left thumb covering the ambient light sensor. The comfortable/thick margins on the sides of the screen lend themselves to holding the N810 with the four fingers against the back and thumb against the front. Unfortunately, the ambient light sensor is located right where I'd naturally place my thumb.

The weight and weight-distribution are certainly something to get used to. I'm actually in the habit now of sliding out the keyboard during extended use sessions. This allows for two things: access to the dpad and slightly better weight distribution. Most of the weight seems to be coming from underneath the keyboard (battery?) not the display.

Most of my complaints and whines can be remedied by changing my habits. We'll see how happy I am (and other N810 users are) in a couple months... :p

[johnkzin]

Those are the reasons why my mockups put the camera and sensor on the top middle of the face, and put the d-pad and button-cluster back on the face of the device. Hopefully more people will feel this way about the N810 layout, and Nokia will look more closely at my usability suggestions.

[Rebski]

I don't think anybody is whining here, these are fair objective observations and, as such, are of value.

Maybe it is possible to adapt to not putting a finger over the light sensor, maybe not.

Every time I pick up my Zaurus C1000 I switch it off! The On/Off button is placed exactly where my thumb goes when I hold it. In two years I have never managed to adapt. All I can think is that designers must hold the devices differently.

Those are the reasons why my mockups put the camera and sensor on the top middle of the face, and put the d-pad and button-cluster back on the face of the device.
Yes, you seem to have been spot on. I read your post at the time. What are the chances of Nokia actually listening to users?

[promethh]

If Nokia is listening, *please* dump the N810 dpad design! ...having directional buttons as a small ring around a fat center button makes for some very difficult controls. Your N800 dpad design was much more functional than the N810!

I'm still trying to get used to the N810 dpad. Instead of cutting my fingernails to the nub, I'm leaving my thumbs slightly longer (not to the sliver) so that I can actually *use* that directional ring.

[yabbas]

Quit whining ;)

[Greyghost]

I really want to like the N810. Really I do!


Great! That's a good start!

Are there other reasons to really move to the N810?



Plenty. I've had mine for less than a week and I'm just finding more reasons to love it. There are lots of reason, including the smaller form factor and the overall finish of the device. The software is better too, especially when you consider that, thanks to programmers like Gnuite, applications like MaemoMapper are superior to the ones 'in the box' and this will only improve when the developers actually get the new devices in their hands:)


Am I whining too much?

Indeed not! Having just praised this little jewel, there is still a lot of room for improvement, on both the hardware and softwares sides. For the hw, it just needs to have a better fit and finish. Others have posted on the these details here in the forum, so it's clear that even though this is a big step forward in the manufacturing end, there are still some serious QA issues to be resolved.

BTW, I noticed that some of the parts are actually made in the EU, which suggests that Nokia is starting to realize that quality of finish (not necessarily price) is going to be the deal-breaker for most users in the future as we become more accustomed, to dare I say it, an 'Apple-like' finish.:o

If nobody 'whines' then the developer who are reading this forum regularly ;) won't know what is working and what isn't.

Having said this, I realize that I personally am often not critical enough, since I am still so impressed with the all the good parts! :rolleyes:

[ydant]

I agree with most said here. I thought it was entirely too heavy when I pulled it out of the box. Now it feels good, however.

One complaint I haven't seen yet is how malleable the stand is. I've already bent mine (and had to unbend it).

The size is perfect. I love the metal (it just feels solid). I'd like it to be lighter.

I HATE the SD card slot. It couldn't be more difficult to use if they tried. I'd rather the internal one be upgradeable, too.

# I keep putting my thumb on the ambient light sensor. I usually hold with my left hand and use the stylus with my right. My thumb naturally blocks the light sensor and the screen automatically darkens.

I also find the sensor to do weird things as I move the device around (and change light exposure). I can't keep the display on a steady setting. This is minor, though.


# The D-pad thing really annoys me. When I'm using FBReader to read a book, I'm used to rotating with the DPad. Now I have to fiddle with a menu or open the keyboard.

Use the +/- (or taps) for paging and assign the "escape" key to be rotate. FBReader lets you reassign the keys. I read quite a lot last night and loved it. It's a great ebook reader. The pixel density is nice.

# Displaying menus when apps are in fullscreen mode requires the slideout keyboard. Pop any application into full screen mode -- say, the Web browser -- and you can't access the app menu without (a) taking it out of fullscreen mode or (b) opening the keyboard just for the menu key.

Agreed. This is a bit of an issue. I find myself using it keyboard open most of the time, however. It's quite nice to hold in that form. I would prefer the finger tap type work when it's open - I find myself trying to open the finger keyboard while it's sitting on the table fairly often.

All in all, I am not sure it's worth the exact amount that the 810 costs over the 800, but I really like the form factor, build quality, and slide out keyboard. I just purchased a bluetooth keyboard and will likely use it when the n810's my laptop replacement (most trips now), but it's nice to have the slideout available for portable use.

I'd be really happy with a cheaper model without the GPS. The keyboard is pretty key, though. Believe me, I considered the n800 heavily before my pre-order shipped catching me off guard (I hadn't decided yet!). The n810 just looks and feels solid while the n800 looks cheap. That's worth some to me.

[timsamoff]

Great observations and notes, frethop. These are the kinds of posts that can really benefit Nokia. (And the maemo staff does read ITT!)

Thank you,
Tim

[Karel Jansens]

Plenty. (snip reasons)

You do realize that just about every argument you've given in favour of the N810, was really an argument in favour of ITOS2008? So the OP would actually be better off by waiting two or three weeks and simply install 2008 on a N800?

[Greyghost]

(snip reasons)

You do realize that just about every argument you've given in favour of the N810, was really an argument in favour of ITOS2008? So the OP would actually be better off by waiting two or three weeks and simply install 2008 on a N800?


Absolutely. For me personally, it was the new, smaller form factor for the N810 that really what prompted me to make the plunge. But you are quite correct, for the price of the N800 (now quite reasonable) you can have it all (well almost:)!

[phi]

I was pretty excited when the n810 was announced, but with such cheap deals on the n800, I ended up just going for that instead. Seeing how with gift cards and buy.com points and a coupon, I ended up only spending about 110 bucks on the n800, I couldn't justify the 300 price gap

[fanoush]

Displaying menus when apps are in fullscreen mode requires the slideout keyboard. Pop any application into full screen mode -- say, the Web browser -- and you can't access the app menu without (a) taking it out of fullscreen mode or (b) opening the keyboard just for the menu key.

I don't have the device yet but indeed expect this to be a problem. Hopefully this is solvable by hacking the device to emit menu keycode via other keys (like holding full screen button for a little longer or something similar).

[Capt'n Corrupt]

The N800 is still a fabulous device. For $100 to $150, I'd choose it over the N810 as well!


}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n Corrupt

[Benson]

The concealed d-pad and button were among my reasons for buying a cut-rate N800 rather than waiting for the N810.
If, as Promethh says, the N810's d-pad is worse than the N800's, well, that's bad.
I haven't used a 770, but it looks a lot more usable. I had assumed that Nokia had heard enough about it that they'd put a good one on the N810, even if it was in the wrong place.
Seems to me they'd have been better off to keep the N800 size, and d-pad, and shift the qwerty to the left. Then they could put an array of buttons on the right of the slider, and have decent game controls with the slider out. (All games for such a beast would ignore the d-pad center button, allowing proper rocking of the d-pad.)
Oh, well, just makes me glad about not getting the N810. If the N900 is even a further step down, I shall doubtless purchase an N810 -- when they hit the $240 point. :)

As for the N810's size, I doubt that would bother me much. But it looks like the kick-stand is substantially shorter -- that would hurt. I hold the N800 in my left hand, with the kick-stand fully deployed and my fingers under it. My thumb is on the left edge, mostly, but I can slide my hand to the left and reach up over for the d-pad and buttons. I was about to recommend this grip to alleviate light-sensor troubles, but I fear you would need very small fingers to hold the N810 like this.

[stevenf]

Having played around with an N810 for a while, there are definitely pros and cons compared to an N800.

The smaller size is great. Unfortunately, I seem to end up with the keyboard open almost all the time for keyboard and Menu key access, which makes it actually LARGER than the N800. Even with the keyboard out, I still end up with a stylus in one hand because not everything is keyboard accessible.

I also put my thumb right on the light sensor. Constantly. Not on purpose. :)

The 810 has a much nicer looking casing. And the hardware keyboard is quite handy.

And it doesn't have the camel hump on the back that makes the N800 so uncomfortable to hold.

But the placement of the D-Pad and the Menu key is a huuuge bummer. It's extremely inconvenient. If you already have an N800, the value of upgrading is debatable.

[Moonshine]

How about the screen? Do you notice a difference in brightness? Color accuracy?

For me the screen and keyboard alone might make the difference :D

[RioT]

I have mixed feelings about the 810... I think if i were to ever want one it would be for the intergraded GPS. But, there are way better stand alone GPS devices out there....

If they had just kept ONE of the friggin SD slots it would have been all worth it....

[weatherman]

I never had an n800, but considered it seriously when the price dropped. I decided to stick with the n810 pre-order I had in though, and I'm happy I did. I have the same complaints about the d-pad and light sensor that others do, but for me the keyboard is indispensable - I vowed never to buy another web/productivity device without a real keyboard because I hate handwriting recognition and soft keyboards so much. After just a few days working with it, I can say that I'm pretty happy with my choice, and that the shortcomings so far few and minor.

As for the whole light sensor issue, I find that most of the time I end up using the device with the keyboard extended anyway, and resting my thumb on the left side of the keyboard. If I'm reading an ebook I generally do it in rotated mode, so the light sensor isn't an issue. Clearly it's poor placement, though there's nothing to be done about that in this iteration (except maybe disabling it? I haven't even looked to see if that's possible).

The major thing I'm disappointed about is the GPS. I feel a little ripped off that the GPS is so poor in the device, and that I'm expected to pay extra down the line for "real" navigation. I'm hoping that eventually this will get better with some firmware revs though.

This is my first post here, so hidey-ho to all the n810ers!

[coffeedrinker]

How are you finding the speakers on the 810? I like the front mounted speakers on the n800 and I have a media player that has the speakers side mounted like the 810. The problem with that is the sound goes away from me rather than towards me. I find when not using headphones with the device I have to cup my hands around it to reflect the sound towards me.

I really like the speakers and their position on the n800 though (default headphones are worst I've ever owned, but like the built in mic).