View Full Version : Ces 2008
The competition is starting, finally: -
From Aigo
http://jkkmobile.blogspot.com/2008/01/new-mobile-internet-device-from-aigo.html
From Lenovo
http://www.umpcportal.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1138
johnkzin
2008-01-05, 23:29
Looks like Lenovo's UI icons are the same as the ones on my samsung R410 .. wonder if there's some collaboration on UI design there.
Also, looks like Lenovo has gotten the finger scrolling and finger-friendliness aspect down, where Nokia still hasn't. But it's not clear to me what OS the Lenovo is using ... nor does it appear to have a hardware keyboard. Both are important to me, if they want to woo me away from the NIT.
Kind o' looks like the Lenovo is running a Canola2 clone...
bartsimpson123844
2008-01-06, 03:41
Cool, a Chinese N810? I wonder how much they would be selling them for? It seems the chinese have copied everything....iPods, iTouch, iPhone, and basically everything else.
BenQ will be announcing their MID at the show
http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/06/benq-launching-its-first-mid-at-ces-2008/
This is the video which we have already seen from the IDF a month or so back
http://www.umpcportal.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1142
Is it me, or does the BenQ's screen seem unusually broad? Maybe a 800x400 resolution?
This is LG's take on the format
http://www.umpcportal.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1143
Things are getting interesting, I hadn't expect this one.
johnkzin
2008-01-06, 14:59
This is LG's take on the format
http://www.umpcportal.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1143
Things are getting interesting, I hadn't expect this one.
The one thing I don't like about that LG article: They imply that their linux version wouldn't have HSPA. That'd be dumb. But, otherwise, could be nice. The linux version could even compete with the NITs.
johnkzin
2008-01-06, 15:12
I saw a Compal prototype over at umpcportal ... looks like it has the right arrangement of buttons for the face of the device (ie. dpad and certain key buttons on the face, and not on the slide-out keyboard). But the keyboard buttons look like they might be like a sidekick (too stiff). It'll be interesting to see how that device turns out.
http://www.umpcportal.com/postimages/LenovoMIDvideoleaked_17E3/compal.jpg
(I might prefer a face that's slightly less busy, could probably move the zoom buttons out of the lower left corner, or something like that; maybe move those to the edge of the device, like the N8x0 do .. but I think the Dpad is very well located, but I'm not sure what the button on the middle of the right face is ... ? I'd like to see the next version of the NIT learn some from Compal prototype's face)
if a MID comes out that has:
face button layout like the Compal
softer/less-stiff keys than the N810 (less strain on your thumbs == better)
more generic linux API/ABI than current Maemo (ie. easier to bring generic linux apps over)
(yes, that means Linux and not Windows)
more finger friendly GUI than current Maemo
HSPA and/or EVDO options
Then I think they could be a serious threat to the NIT family.
(and, I also kinda like the layout of the Aigo's keyboard, the more I look at it.. escape, tab, and control keys all right there, and some of the key layouts look more like a generic qwerty than the N810's)
Tuxedosteve
2008-01-06, 19:07
Ignoring the rather large format device for the moment, this is the sort of UI Nokia are going to be competing against over the next year or so.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IALqu7EKUTw&feature=related
I love my N810 but to be honest it looks a little shabby next to this. I'm watching the CES news with great interest.
Who would have thought the Sony Mylo would be in the list
http://www.pocketables.net/2008/01/sony-mylo-2-com.html
http://www.carrypad.com/journal/2008/01/sony-mylo-2-com-2-spotted-at-ces.html
This is a photo of the Intel stand, the Aigo and Lenovo are distinguishable in the display case
http://www.pocketables.net/2008/01/sneak-peek-inte.html
I wonder if we are looking at concept devices (like concept cars at the big car shows) rather than real things that you will actually be able to go out and buy soon.
I also notice that the leaks never seem to mention battery life - surely the hardest engineering problem for these size of devices.
We can be tough on Nokia for many things, but I am pretty sure that they are very, very good at eking every drop of power out of a battery.
I wonder if we are looking at concept devices (like concept cars at the big car shows) rather than real things that you will actually be able to go out and buy soon.Sony says the Mylo 2 will be on sale in a few weeks. OTOH, while a vast improvement over the Mylo 1, and not a bad piece of tech, it's still seriously inferior to the n810. I have no idea if the Aigo MID is a prototype or not, but I suspect it will be real device going on sale soon, since they have shown off other versions of the same device in previous shows. Depending upon price and capability, the Aigo MID might well be a serious competitor to the n810.
Milhouse
2008-01-07, 12:27
I think the MIDs are heavily dependent on when Intel can ship the 45nm Silverthorne CPU and Menlow platform in general (of which Silverthorne is but a part).
I'm looking forward to Intel MIDs, particularly as they will have support for all of the built-in hardware (ie. PowerVR 3D etc.) rather than ignoring it with lame excuses. The only issues will be battery lifetime and/or size, which may be inferior to Nokia with these first generation devices.
TTgowings
2008-01-07, 12:57
As much as I (and others)b!tch and complain about all the short comings of Nokia's IT line, here we are nearly a year later after Nokia announced the N800, there are still no clear competitors in the field near the same price range.
We've seen a whole lot of "coming soon" and other promised devices but really other then say the iPod/touch, the Eee PC (though only real comparison is the price range) even some phones have come close, but for the price and all the capabilities you really can't go wrong with any of the NIT's..
TTgowings
2008-01-07, 13:02
Ignoring the rather large format device for the moment, this is the sort of UI Nokia are going to be competing against over the next year or so.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IALqu7EKUTw&feature=related
I love my N810 but to be honest it looks a little shabby next to this. I'm watching the CES news with great interest.
Is this not the same tablet we saw about 6-8 months ago ? Or maybe just the UI on a different tablet ?
Edit:
I see now that video was posted early in May 07.
And BT is nice but wouldn't be a deal breaker. (since I cannot for the life of me to get my DUO to pair with my N800)
Some more on the Mylo
http://www.carrypad.com/journal/2008/01/engadget-tests-new-mylo-so-bad-gizmodo.html
A video here
http://gizmodo.com/341145/mylo-2-gets-a-video-groping
Check out the camera quality, zoom features and image editing.
Tuxedosteve
2008-01-07, 13:04
It's an old video. I was talking more about the UI. It's much slicker and smoother than Maemo.
Tuxedosteve
2008-01-07, 13:05
Some more on the Mylo
http://www.carrypad.com/journal/2008/01/engadget-tests-new-mylo-so-bad-gizmodo.html
A video here
http://gizmodo.com/341145/mylo-2-gets-a-video-groping
Check out the camera quality, zoom features and image editing.
It's very nice but the lack of bluetooth makes it a complete non-starter. If it can't use my phone as a modem it's no use at all for me.
Milhouse
2008-01-07, 13:40
Lenovo and Aigo CES videos from engadget:
http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/06/video-of-intels-menlow-devices-in-action/
The Lenovo seems to be priced at $599 and will be available "sometime in the next year" although it will be available in China sooner than that (might already be available in China, the presenter isn't clear on that - doubt it somehow).
The Aigo has no US release date but will be available in H1 this year.
Looks like China and Asia Pacific countries will be getting MIDs first, then perhaps releasing in the US once they have gauged demand/stabilised the platform?
More shots of the Gen2, why can't we have it now?
http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/hands-on-with-intels-mid-platform/
Collection of gallery shots
http://gizmodo.com/341401/intel-silverthorne-umpcs-are-dreamy-goodness
JK gives his impressions of the Lenovo and Aigo, both running Red Hat Linux. Also he mentions MID's from DigiFriends and Toshiba but as yet I have not seen any pictures
http://jkontherun.blogs.com/jkontherun/2008/01/impressions-of.html
The Lenovo looks cool to me, but I think it's too big for its target market.
I think it's too big for its target market
Do you mean the 'in your pocket' mrket? I would gladly adapt my pockets for the Gen2.
The Lenovo runs Red Flag Linux and not Red Hat as was previouslyh reported
There is some more info on Clarion, Toshiba, Digifriends and Aigo.
http://www.umpcportal.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1152
Lack of variety is not an issue
Apparently there are 15 MID's in all at CES so more to follow.
http://www.umpcportal.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1156
A bit more on the LG
http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/lgs-hsdpa-ultraportable-runs-vista-on-silverthorne/
http://www.umpcportal.com/products/product.php?id=161
HSDPA capable with a Screen resolution of 1,024 x 600 and if it is able to run Vista then it's got some welly.
johnkzin
2008-01-07, 22:20
A bit more on the LG
http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/lgs-hsdpa-ultraportable-runs-vista-on-silverthorne/
http://www.umpcportal.com/products/product.php?id=161
HSDPA capable with a Screen resolution of 1,024 x 600 and if it is able to run Vista then it's got some welly.
On the other hand, if it runs Vista, I'm not interested.
Unless they have a version that has a fully supported Linux install, that also has HSPA.
Unless they have a version that has a fully supported Linux install, that also has HSPA.
Well that is the question isn't it? Otherwise the form factor is good.
On the other hand, if it runs Vista, I'm not interested.Also, given that it's a full umpc, I'm expecting it to cost more than twice what the n810 does. OTOH, the Iriver Wing sounds good. Here's the basic info (http://www.slashgear.com/ces-2008-iriver-wing-umpc-079492.php). While initial reports said it used Window CE (ugh) the Iriver press release says "It utilizes embedded Linux Kernel 2.6" (http://www.hwhpr.com/PR/iriver/CES08/WING_UNIT2.html). This doesn't look like it will be terribly expensive, and reports say it will be available in the first half of this year.
Milhouse
2008-01-07, 23:44
ith a Screen resolution of 1,024 x 600
1024x600 on a 4.8" screen should be pin sharp... but possibly too sharp for my failing eyes to resolve! :)
Milhouse
2008-01-07, 23:45
With all this kit launching first in China and APAC I reckon the Honk Kong based eBay sellers will be doing a roaring trade!
There are some nice hi-res photos here
http://www.umpcportal.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1159
:::
Look like a clone of N8x0 with different shell case.
:::
Milhouse
2008-01-08, 01:16
At least Aigo didn't copy the d-pad positioning mistake...! :) Then again it doesn't look like it's got one at all!
amigokin
2008-01-08, 01:43
Guys! Maemo? Pocket-computers with a real browser? Don't we already have that? the Nokia Internet Tablets are pioneers in this field.
I'm proud to be an early adopter of this kind of the devices that the others companies are starting to release this year.
At least Aigo didn't copy the d-pad positioning mistake...! :) Then again it doesn't look like it's got one at all!
I keep looking for this mistake on which you harp, Milly, and I just can't find it.
Got a GPS coordinate?
:p
johnkzin
2008-01-08, 02:11
I keep looking for this mistake on which you harp, Milly, and I just can't find it.
Got a GPS coordinate?
:p
You know.. the mistake of putting the dpad on the slide-out keyboard, instead of keeping it on the face of the device :-) That mistake.
And, really, that is a rather annoying piece of the N810 experience. For example, using the RSS reader (not the home applet, the actual application), you can comfortably use the dpad, annoyingly use the stylus, or awkwardly use your fingers and hope you don't hit the wrong small-type RSS feed title, etc. On the N800, it was an easy choice: use the dpad. On the N810, it's annoying, becuase to use the dpad you have to do something stupid (open the keyboard), so no matter which one you choose, it's an annoying experience.
There are two ways to fix it:
1) make the N810 more finger friendly, including all of the included apps (and the RSS app is only finger friendly in ONE way: it seems to be the most responsive of any app when you want to use your fingernail to manipulate the tiny little scroll bar and arrows... in every other respect, it is almost finger hostile).
2) put the dpad back on the face of the device.
IMO: both should be done.
(and, before you suggest "but, the home screen applet RSS reader IS finger friendly", it is also also more annoying than the 3 choices for using the regular rss reader application ... the transparency is annoying an can't be turned off, it doesn't group things by feed, and I don't want my rss reader to be a home applet, I want it to be a regular application that gets launched/minimized/killed like any other application ... so, my response to "you could use the home applet RSS reader" is "I could also shoot myself in the head -- both are equally useful suggestions" :) )
In all seriousness, and no shilling whatsoever, I don't see the relocation as a mistake at all.
philmcneal
2008-01-08, 02:48
depending on how the mylo is priced... i could just not open my nokia 800 at all... assuming the mylo can take simple notes like the n800 can (since everyone says the thumb board can be mastered and i've seen crazy videos of people blazing on their iphones, i'm sure the latter is possible with the n800)
but the 3 inch screen is such a turn off... but really if the performance is there then...
***** $299?? **** that! the n800 is still a bargin!
http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2008/01/sony_mylo_2_the_definitive_review.html
Milhouse
2008-01-08, 06:18
I keep looking for this mistake on which you harp, Milly, and I just can't find it.
Got a GPS coordinate?
:p
No - it's not there! :D
Milhouse
2008-01-08, 06:23
In all seriousness, and no shilling whatsoever, I don't see the relocation as a mistake at all.
I use the d-pad all the time while browsing long documents, and the lack of a d-pad on the facia and having to keep the keyboard open just so that I can scroll comfortably is not a good design decision. I also use the application menu button a lot - and that too is now on the keyboard. Maybe Nokia Hardware and UI designers were out to get me?
However, *IF* the OS becomes much more finger friendly it may become an acceptable design decision, but that's a big IF and there is no guarantee it will happen (I'll believe it when I see it).
So until then, it's a bad hardware decision because the software is lacking. :)
I keep looking for this mistake on which you harp, Milly, and I just can't find it.
Milly. Isn't that a girl's name?
I use the d-pad all the time while browsing long documents, and the lack of a d-pad on the facia and having to keep the keyboard open just so that I can scroll comfortably is not a good design decision. I also use the application menu button a lot - and that too is now on the keyboard. Maybe Nokia Hardware and UI designers were out to get me?
However, *IF* the OS becomes much more finger friendly it may become an acceptable design decision, but that's a big IF and there is no guarantee it will happen (I'll believe it when I see it).
So until then, it's a bad hardware decision because the software is lacking. :)
I also use the D-pad a lot. I had also always thought that a thin scroll ribbon on the right side if the screen would compliment the D-pad nicely, but as you say, if it gets more finger friendly neither would be needed all that much (or missed, provided it worked well).
R.
==
I wish the power adapter jack was on the left side and a roller wheel was on the right side (like the wheel my old Sandisk MP3 player had).
I use the d-pad all the time while browsing long documents, and the lack of a d-pad on the facia and having to keep the keyboard open just so that I can scroll comfortably is not a good design decision. I also use the application menu button a lot - and that too is now on the keyboard. Maybe Nokia Hardware and UI designers were out to get me?
However, *IF* the OS becomes much more finger friendly it may become an acceptable design decision, but that's a big IF and there is no guarantee it will happen (I'll believe it when I see it).
So until then, it's a bad hardware decision because the software is lacking. :)
Then I'm left wondering how I keep using it without a d-pad on the outside. What am I doing wrong???
:p
Milhouse
2008-01-08, 15:36
Then I'm left wondering how I keep using it without a d-pad on the outside. What am I doing wrong???
:p
You are the focus group and I claim my £5! :) I bet it was you who said the hard cover was a bad idea too! :D
I guess we all use the device in different ways... when reading news articles I like to use the d-pad down action to scroll through the page a few lines at a time.
If/when I get a N810 I'll be forced to scroll through documents either by dragging or using stylus/scrollbar as I won't want to pop open the keyboad each time to scroll and perhaps in time I, like you, will grow accustomed to not using the d-pad but this is not an argument to say it was a good design decision in the first place. :)
johnkzin
2008-01-08, 15:41
I use the d-pad all the time while browsing long documents, and the lack of a d-pad on the facia and having to keep the keyboard open just so that I can scroll comfortably is not a good design decision. I also use the application menu button a lot - and that too is now on the keyboard. Maybe Nokia Hardware and UI designers were out to get me?
However, *IF* the OS becomes much more finger friendly it may become an acceptable design decision, but that's a big IF and there is no guarantee it will happen (I'll believe it when I see it).
So until then, it's a bad hardware decision because the software is lacking. :)
Yup. There's 3 choices we have in doing navigation&control with the NIT devices:
1) Dpad & "button cluster" (in quotes, because no such cluster exists on the N810)
2) Stylus
3) Fingers
For the NIT family, #3 simply isn't a viable option in most cases. It's just too clunky in the current revision of things. It's getting better. And there are a few places where it's even good (the RSS reader home applet -- it IS finger friendly, I just don't like it's functional limitations compared to the full RSS reader). But it's not good enough (not "finger friendly" enough) to be a good choice for general user interaction with the device.
So that means choosing between "buttons" (dpad+button cluster) vs "stylus". The stylus is a good choice for precision work .. drawing, etc. But it's sort of awkward, and annoying, to have to pull the stylus out, work with it, make sure you put it away, etc. It's so ... mid 90's (ie. palm pilot era).
With the N800, the choice was easy: if you don't want to mess with stylus, the dpad/button-cluster was a great way to do most tasks. You don't have to do anything special, like pull out the stylus -- you just start using the device, with both hands right on it. No balancing act, no right-handed bias when using the stylus (right handed people will be able to keep left thumb on buttons and use the stylus in the right hand; left handed people have to take their fingers off the buttons in order to use the stylus). It's an incredibly easy way to do most tasks.
With the N810, the choice isn't as easy. The reason is: it's now just as annoying to use the dpad/button-cluster as it is to use the stylus. You have to "get something out", take your thumbs further away from the screen (so it's harder to use what little finger-friendliness there is in OS2008), and the button-cluster is now spread out all over the place. There is no longer ANY convenient and simple mechanism for interacting with the device. All 3 options are annoying.
So, while, with the N800 I had an easy choice: go for the button method ... I find myself frequently jumping around between the 3 methods when using my N810 ... which means the N810 experience is confusing. My hands are all over the place (right hand reaching for the screen, going back to holding the device; left hand trying to both hold the device and use the dpad; stylus laying on my stomach, where I might lose it if I forget I had it out, so that my right hand can type on the keyboard, etc.). And, in order to most things that are useful, I have to open the keyboard. There aren't many things in life that I call "stupid", but the N810 user experience is definitely STUPID.
Due to the lack of finger-friendly GUI, the N810 is almost, but not quite, useless when in tablet form. And, yet, isn't this an Internet TABLET??
A product that is an Internet Tablet ... that is useless as a tablet. So, it's just a NI now? (Nokia Internet ______ ). That's a rather awkward product designation.
Maybe, if Chinook had been 100% finger friendly, it would have been ok to make this device design change at the same time as releasing Chinook. But Chinook isn't, so the timing of this kind of device design change isn't ok. The destruction of the best user-interaction method on the NIT family should have been accompanied by a fully-baked replacement for that user-interaction method (ie. the delivery of a fully finger-friendly UI and application set). Not coupling those two things is, without question, a mistake.
Since Chinook isn't finger friendly, the N810 should have left the dpad on the face of the device, and kept the 3 buttons of the button cluster in a single usable location (pref. on the right side of the face, but an N800 like arrangement of dpad and button cluster would have been acceptable).
If the linux based MIDs are finger friendly, and the next major OS release doesn't fix this, and/or isn't released soon, then it's going to open Nokia up to some rather one sided competition (and that one side isn't in Nokia's favor).
A product that is an Internet Tablet ... that is useless as a tablet
Pure hyperbole, John. Come on.
Since Chinook isn't finger friendly, the N810 should have left the dpad on the face of the device, and kept the 3 buttons of the button cluster in a single usable location (pref. on the right side of the face, but an N800 like arrangement of dpad and button cluster would have been acceptable)..
No no no no NO.
Software is mutable. Hardware (for the most part) is not. The OS can easily be made more finger-friendly. So can most websites I'll wager.
Granted, my usage leads me not to worry about the d-pad move (heck I like the smooth, uncluttered face now) but if enough people keep providing feedback about the usability experience it will (and has) improve. So don't blame the hardware for software shortcomings. Keep demanding UI improvements. Just because they're not in this version doesn't mean they won't be in the next.
This is one of the most interesting so far, the Digifriends MID
http://www.pocketables.net/2008/01/digifriends-mid.html
Clip on Keyboard with extension battery
Clip on Speakers
Clip on UCC editor (whatever that might be)
Runs Linux in addition to two other unmentionables.
WiMax, WiFi, Bluetooth.
Jeffgrado
2008-01-08, 18:31
The Sony Mylo 2 has on screen web navigation icons for finger touch scrolling. I don't think I have seen that on other products
The Sony Mylo 2 has on screen web navigation icons for finger touch scrolling. I don't think I have seen that on other products
One video demo I saw, maybe for the Toshiba concept, had browser scrolling set to react to screen tilt.
It is great to see fresh ideas and new thinking being applied to the form factor.
If you download this 40mb video,
http://www.gottabemobile.com/CES2008TheClarionAndTheSamsungMIDs.aspx
http://blip.tv/file/get/Gottabemobile-CES2008TheClarionAndSamsungRedFlagMIDs775.wmv
it gives a glimpse of the Clarion MID and Red Flag Linux on the Samsung Ultra. I would have preferred to see more MID’s on the piece but the Clarion looks far better here than in the photos I have seen previously.
Also of significance is Linux running on the Samsung which was until now, a Vista pre-installed device.
This is one of the most interesting so far, the Digifriends MID
http://www.pocketables.net/2008/01/digifriends-mid.html
Clip on Keyboard with extension battery
Clip on Speakers
Clip on UCC editor (whatever that might be)
Runs Linux in addition to two other unmentionables.
WiMax, WiFi, Bluetooth.
Anybody figure out what the "UCC editor" is?
I have checked almost all of the links in this thread... I didn't find a real Nokia competitor that can stand the N8x0 possibilities.
I am sure most of them look cool, but I am also sure they all have shortcoming Nokia's already addressed.
The N810 is SMALL. Mylo looks like it's the only one small enough (but it's why thicker).
But I am sure Mylo has lots of locks (think DRM) in there.
What about expandability (software-wise) ?
After all I feel comfortable. My IT will stand competitors after CES.
Mylo will gain probably a huge chunk of this new market, but because Sony knows how to publicize its products.
johnkzin
2008-01-10, 16:56
The mylo has one HUGE thorn in its paw: memory sticks. They're only an advantage if you use other sony embedded devices.
The one advantage most MIDs have over the NIT family: x86 based (that's part of the MID definition, IIRC, but I also think I remember several of the CES MIDs saying they had ARM processors). That isn't going to make me drop everything and buy one, but it IS an advantage.
one interesting rumor is that the snapdragon and the menlow are evenly matched on computing power...
GeneralAntilles
2008-01-17, 02:43
The one advantage most MIDs have over the NIT family: x86 based (that's part of the MID definition, IIRC, but I also think I remember several of the CES MIDs saying they had ARM processors). That isn't going to make me drop everything and buy one, but it IS an advantage.
In a way, but there are tradeoffs. Notable cost and battery life. Intel wont be catching up to ARM in the super-mobile space for a while yet.
johnkzin
2008-01-17, 04:08
In a way, but there are tradeoffs. Notable cost and battery life. Intel wont be catching up to ARM in the super-mobile space for a while yet.
You're right. But, until I get a EVDO/WiMAX/HSPA NIT, I don't ever use my NIT that far from a power plug ... so battery life isn't THAT critical to me. x86 compatibility isn't that critical to me either, but ... it is one of those things of "which is more annoying", because that's what battery life and lack of binary compatibility are to me right now: minor annoyances.
Cost is different, though. I don't see buying a MID that'll cost me more than $600 (pref. $500). So, if an x86 based MID can't give me everything I get from an N810 (maybe minus the GPS), even when it has a WWAN radio built in, and keep the price under that ceiling, then I probably wont buy it.
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