770 - the forgotten tablet [Archive] - maemo.org

dburr10085

2008-01-17, 14:59

You can move to hacker edition and remove Skype, Maemo Mapper and maybe even Canola out of that list. KDE with 64MB RAM is IMO unreasonable.

Maybe you should change topic name to "OS2006 - the forgotten OS" :-)

And BTW you can get latest scummvm for OS2006 too ;-)

EDIT: but you can add new python release to your list
http://importluck.blogspot.com/2008/01/python251-for-maemo-r04-15-01c3.html

I do run OS2007HE. In my opinon, none of the apps above run without major configuration. I consider it major configuration because you have to at least have some knowledge of linux in order to make those apps run. Unfortunately, for the linux deficient (me), most of linux programming required to make these run is over my head.
BTW - Canola2 does not run on OS2007HE - "it's coming" according to them, but as of right now - we are once again left out on another newly release app.

kotzkind

2008-01-17, 15:12

If i would have the 770 I would install debian armel port

fanoush

2008-01-17, 15:29

I do run OS2007HE. In my opinon, none of the apps above run without major configuration. Oh I see. You are right. Both Skype and MM (or more correctly gpsd) need tweaking.

Drewvt

2008-01-17, 17:45

KDE
Canola2
Maemo Mapper 2.2+
Skype

I sympathize, but to be honest, I have no personal need for those apps. There are several media players available, mapping I don't need, and I use Google Talk instead of Skype...

racky

2008-01-17, 18:22

770 - the forgotten tablet?? I don't feel that way at all.
I am using OS2006 on 770 on MMS, I have no big problem (other than the WSOD I had last month, but got my brand new replacement few day ago). Now I am using Orb to watch my cable TV on it, plus streaming the music, my webcam, movies and pictures from my computer, it is so good to have a 4 inch TV in your pocket all the time. I am also using Grandcental and Gimzo to make free call to landlines, planning to use it to call my girlfriend during my vacation when I am in Asian in 2 weeks. Browsing the Internet is Ok, but not perfect only because some web sites use a lot of pictures and flash 9. I have installed OS2007HE on flash for a few days for dual boot, it might be better . I also installed Xmamo to play the old NES games. and Canola 1 to watch movies, play music and pictures on my 2G MMS card. The more I use it, the more I love it. Now I am just afraid the battery doesn't last me long enough for the whole day use.:)

Bundyo

2008-01-17, 19:57

fanoush

2008-01-17, 21:00

Fanoush, Canola2 is not running on the 2007HE since there is no inotify in the old kernel (but it should be, because inotify was introduced in 2.6.13). Do you know anything about this? I don't know about this but inotify seems to be added only with 2.6.18
http://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_2_6_18#head-094ec64ea4c2121fa6c1ea0a1adf5e6c1588733b

EDIT:
Hmm but when reading about it, it is really since 2.6.13 (http://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_2_6_13), the part in 2.6.18 is just kernel api (i.e .for usage inside kernel). Maybe it is just not enabled in 2.6.16 in stock 770 firmware.

EDIT2:
No inotify is enabled in 2.6.16 so this is really strange, even if there is something missing in userspace in OS2006 it should still be in 2007 HEsince it is basically copy of N800 firmware with few tweaks.

dburr10085

2008-01-17, 21:12

770 - the forgotten tablet?? I don't feel that way at all.
I am using OS2006 on 770 on MMS, I have no big problem (oher than the WSOD I had last month, but got my brand new replacement few day ago). Now I am using Orb to watch my cable TV on it, plus streaming the music, my webcam, movies and pictures from my computer, it is so good to have a 4 inch TV in your pocket all the time. I am also using Grandcental and Gimzo to make free call to landlines, planning to use it to call my girlfriend during my vacation when I am in Asian in 2 weeks. Browsing the Internet is Ok, but not perfect only because some web sites use a lot of pictures and flash 9. I have installed OS2007HE on flash for a few days for dual boot, it might be better . I also installed Xmamo to play the old NES games. and Canola 1 to watch movies, play music and pictures on my 2G MMS card. The more I use it, the more I love it. Now I am just afraid the battery doesn't last me long enough from the whole day use.:)

I agree that the 770 is still an awsome device, but I have noticed that since the 800 has moved to the OS2008 along with the new 810, all of the NEW apps are geared toward those devices first, and it seems that the OS700HE users get promised that the apps will be compiled for our devices this is starting not to happen more and more. I understand that this is the nature of the beast and it's bound to happen just as it will happen one day with the 800 and 810 devices (we were also told that a version of OS2008 would be geared to the 770 and I haven't heard about any progress on that front either, so I'll add that to the list also).:

OS2008

Bundyo

2008-01-17, 21:21

it should still be in 2007HE since it is basically copy of N800 firmware with few tweaks.

Yes, but isn't 2007HE using the OS2006 kernel?

Beaverboy

2008-01-18, 14:24

Actually, the support we get from Nokia is better than I've seen for any 2 year old PDAs from other manufacturers. Try getting updates for a Palm without spending a fortune.. or finding quality software for PocketPC... it's no fun IMHO.

I've got a coworker who's gone through a 770, 800 and just got his 810 last week.. and while I really like the 810.. I still feel that I'm getting more than my money's worth with the N770.

iontruo2

2008-01-18, 14:54

A word of sympathy. I entered the community with my purchase of the N800 but I must say I really liked the look of the preceding N770-The first inspiration. At a mere two years old I would not call that an old machine.
I have often felt that its those owners who are the 'early adopters' , the 'charter members', the 'core crew' and they still need to be nurtured, for it was they who made the first wave of interest gain momentum. An invaluable contribution! :)

While I am just a 'savvy' user, I had been able to keep my Treo650 going strong for me and I understand it has been around for about 4-5 years(or more?). I do hope some of measure of 'common user' support continues for the N770 crew. Surely their hardware has some good juice left for a few more tweeks?! :p

GeneralAntilles

2008-01-18, 15:04

I have often felt that its those owners who are the 'early adopters' , the 'charter members', the 'core crew' and they still need to be nurtured, for it was they who made the first wave of interest gain momentum. An invaluable contribution! :)

Ha! I, personally, dropped that paperweight for the much, much more capable N800 and never looked back. :p

iontruo2

2008-01-18, 15:08

One area I find myself interested is the GUI and the possibilities for Themes.
Perhaps one area that the N770 gang could benefit, is with a 'face lift' for the GUI.
I know it doesn't address the issues of the more advance new software(ie Canola) but I personally found Zlauncher on my Treo re-invigorated my interest to continue using it with what I had in current compatible software.

There is a discussion going on pertaining to the possibilities of just that here:
http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8705

iontruo2

2008-01-18, 15:32

Ha! I, personally, dropped that paperweight for the much, much more capable N800 and never looked back. :p

Sure enough! ;) Totally get ya. Love my N800, but not all of our community friends here can scrape up more dough for a new machine at each evolution.
I just gave a lady friend's Palm3 a little face lift tune up and she is thrilled. She has had it for quite a while and was basically content with it and I couldn't encourage her to a newer option.

dburr10085

2008-01-18, 17:02

The 770 still has plenty of juice, but the main reason I was proud to own this device is because it is linux based. As a Windows user, one of the things lacking is a community "we're all in this together" sort of feeling. I always had the impression that other fellow Linux users would not be the type to abandon older devices as that is a very Window-sy type of thing to do. Microsofts message to their users is "upgrade to our latest software or we won't support you for much longer" I just hope that sort of cavalier attitude does not start make its way into our community. I love my 770 and I will keep it and probably not change to a 8XX anytime soon, but I want the Linux community to do what they are know for doing.

bac522

2008-01-18, 19:57

Maemo Mapper 2.2+

This works on the 770...or at least with 2006OS which is what I'm using. As far as feeling left out, I had that feeling when the Nokia released the 800 and pretty snubbed its nose to all us 770 users. It was at that time I decided never to buy another Nokia product again. Fortunately the 770 still does what I need it to do and my next toy will probably be the Asus EEE. I also expect some competitive products to hit the market soon.

bac522

2008-01-18, 19:59

Ha! I, personally, dropped that paperweight for the much, much more capable N800 and never looked back. :p

ya like what, that it can run flash....big deal!

smackpotato

2008-01-18, 20:30

dburr10085

2008-01-18, 20:49

I'm completely satisfied with my 770 and the 2006 operating system. It really does have lots of apps, many media players, text editors,paint programs,audio recorders, mapping software, book readers, messengers, calculators, and emulators. What more do you want

Sorry - I just want the LINUX based community to live up to the expectations. Everything I heard about the linux community was about how much they support all linux devices. As I've mentioned before:
OS2008 has moved on and left N770 users out
Maemo Mapper has moved on to updated version with no OS2007HE version
Canola has moved on with no N770 version
No N770 for KDE
All you have to do is look in the apps section and you will see more and more NEW apps and UPDATED apps leave the N770 out. Eventually some "Windows" minded person will tell me to upgrade my tablet (hmmmm, sounds like what happened when Windows was growing - just throw away your old computer because it can't run the new OS or apps anymore) but that wasn't what I thought Linux based was about.

Karel Jansens

2008-01-18, 23:50

Sorry - I just want the LINUX based community to live up to the expectations. Everything I heard about the linux community was about how much they support all linux devices. As I've mentioned before:
OS2008 has moved on and left N770 users out
Maemo Mapper has moved on to updated version with no OS2007HE version
Canola has moved on with no N770 version
No N770 for KDE
All you have to do is look in the apps section and you will see more and more NEW apps and UPDATED apps leave the N770 out. Eventually some "Windows" minded person will tell me to upgrade my tablet (hmmmm, sounds like what happened when Windows was growing - just throw away your old computer because it can't run the new OS or apps anymore) but that wasn't what I thought Linux based was about.

Good rant, but aimed at the wrong people. ITOS2008 is the responsibility of Nokia and Nokia alone and the main reason the programs you mention have left the 770 behind, is because the operating system isn't maintained to keep up with the new features of those programs.

Normally I'd agree that forced backwards compatibility is not a good thing, but common Nokia, the 770 is nigh on two years old, godsdammit! IBM continued to support OS/2 for almost ten years after they stopped even remembering what it was.

pablob

2008-01-19, 00:23

Sorry - I just want the LINUX based community to live up to the expectations. Everything I heard about the linux community was about how much they support all linux devices.

I would rather say that the support is typical of the Linux community ;). You can do many things, but it requires some (sometimes quite advanced) knowledge of how things work under the hood.

OS2008 has moved on and left N770 users out
Maemo Mapper has moved on to updated version with no OS2007HE version
Canola has moved on with no N770 version
No N770 for KDE

I have Maemo Mapper working on my 770 with OS2007HE thanks to someone in these forums.
If the people at the INdT are right, Canola 2 for OS2007HE is a matter of time, and if you are really desperate for it you could install Scratchbox and compile it yourself.

I can't say anything about KDE, although I think it would be a slooooow experience in a 770. But maybe Xfce not, who knows (I haven't tried it myself).

I do hope that Nokia will release or at least give enough support for a OS2008HE for the 770, but I will not hold my breath for it.

All you have to do is look in the apps section and you will see more and more NEW apps and UPDATED apps leave the N770 out. Eventually some "Windows" minded person will tell me to upgrade my tablet (hmmmm, sounds like what happened when Windows was growing - just throw away your old computer because it can't run the new OS or apps anymore) but that wasn't what I thought Linux based was about.

My own personal impression is that the 770 is going to become a nice "hacker on a budget project" and if you really want to follow the bleeding edge stuff you'll have to learn the underpinnings of the system and install Scratchbox (I am trying to get enough free space for that! :)) so you can compile your own software. Other alternative would be Debian... (another thing I'm considering now, and probably more seriously if OS2008 truly leaves the 770 behind).

This is from a heavily Linux-base perspective (hacking is fun!); if you want it to "just work", I don't see good prospects for new software on the 770... (But I'm a n00b, here, so take my opinion with a grain of salt ;)).

Pablo B.

JeffElkins

2008-01-19, 00:41

I bought a 770 for my wife as an ebook reader and we couldn't be happier.

wavefinder

2008-01-19, 01:19

racky

2008-01-19, 07:06

how do you stream your tv using orb?

I have a TV card and Window XP Media Center, and installed Ffdshow(free software) to decode the signal, and installed Orb 2.0(www.orb.com), these are all you need, and you must have, and of course a wireless internet router. I just got it working for a few days and I can tell you the result is excellent. Now I put a magic tape on the back of the hard cover of my old WSOD left over and stick it on the wall of my kitchen, bedroom, bathroom or any place in my house and never miss a show again. I haven't have a chance to try it outside my house yet, I will try it out this weekend if I can find a good WIFI signal somewhere.:rolleyes:

GeneralAntilles

2008-01-19, 08:03

ya like what, that it can run flash....big deal!

Seriously . . . have you used an N800? I've put tons of hours into both my 770 and my N800 since both of their release dates, the N800 is lightyears ahead of the 770 in speed and, thus, general usability.

Bundyo

2008-01-19, 10:52

N800 is at least 2 times faster. Maybe even 3.

That said, N770 is not for the gadget graveyard yet. Nokia won't support it anymore though, so the community is on its own (Nokia is not a linux community you see). There will be at least one 2008HE, or at least that is promised.

Canola2 needs only a media scanner to work on the 770 (no inotify in the old kernel). Hell, i can even run it now, but without media scanner it won't be of much use.

Maemo mapper 2.3 is working on HE without any problem.

luciditydigital

2008-01-19, 11:41

770 here and Os2007HE, i skipped the N800 not for $ but because I didn't really like the design. it was too.......chick....I don't know, but I didn't care for it. Anyway, now I am ready to get the N810, I like the design there. Especially the transflective screen.
-ezra

Johnx

2008-01-19, 11:44

@dburr10085:

You seem to be misunderstanding the situation a little, so let me clear some things up for you:
1. It's not just a matter of "recompiling" apps that work on the N800/N810 to make them work on the 770. It's a matter of hours of rewriting code to make them work with outdated software, for each version released.
2. Because of the fact that Nokia hasn't released source code for all of IT200xOS it's very difficult for anyone but Nokia to make new IT200xOS releases. If you want IT2008OS it's going to come from Nokia.
3. 2 years *is* considered a fairly short lifetime for a device running Linux. Some clever people *are* working on getting new software releases on the 770, such as the guy on this forum who has Debian running, and OE/Angstrom guys who have at least put together the start of an alternative Linux distribution.
4. That being said, the "Linux community" doesn't *owe* you software for free. The "freedom" of Linux comes from being able to do whatever you want with the source code. Want more applications for the 770? Then why not try to make that happen yourself? And yes, I'm aware that you said that you don't know Linux very well and that it's over your head. Maybe you could try and learn? None of us were born with Linux experience. We all spent the time to learn it. Excuse me for saying so but it seems somewhat hypocritical to come down on the Linux community for not "supporting" the 770, when you aren't willing to make the effort to learn some Linux and meet them halfway.

Just my 2 cents.

-John

iontruo2

2008-01-19, 17:04

Good rant, but aimed at the wrong people. ITOS2008 is the responsibility of Nokia and Nokia alone and the main reason the programs you mention have left the 770 behind, is because the operating system isn't maintained to keep up with the new features of those programs.

Normally I'd agree that forced backwards compatibility is not a good thing, but common Nokia, the 770 is nigh on two years old, godsdammit! IBM continued to support OS/2 for almost ten years after they stopped even remembering what it was.

A Big Amen, brother!

My Palm example earlier with my now humble Treo650 with Palm5os follows that in a little way. Certainly more than double the age of the 770.
That said, I was and am still pissed at the specific killing of the Mac OS 9 which should easily have gone on for years to come. Heck I have a few friends who were still clunking away on Windows 95&98 believe it or not.

GeneralAntilles

2008-01-19, 17:08

That said, I was and am still pissed at the specific killing of the Mac OS 9 which should easily have gone on for years to come.

Oh good god. You wouldn't happen to go by the name of AmishIndy on a certain mac gaming webboard, would you? <_<

The Classic Mac OS was barely an operating system. It was a horrible, unstable, hackish piece of junk (I should know, I used it for more than 10 years). OS 9 was perhaps only surpassed in its crappiness by 8.6, and it's a damn good thing they killed it dead when they did. Anybody who claims that the move from OS 9 to OS X was a bad thing, obviously has little understanding of the technical issues involved. :p

Thank god for FreeBSD and OS X and good riddance to bad rubbish!

iontruo2

2008-01-19, 17:29

4. That being said, the "Linux community" doesn't *owe* you software for free. The "freedom" of Linux comes from being able to do whatever you want with the source code. Want more applications for the 770? Then why not try to make that happen yourself? And yes, I'm aware that you said that you don't know Linux very well and that it's over your head. Maybe you could try and learn? None of us were born with Linux experience. We all spent the time to learn it. Excuse me for saying so but it seems somewhat hypocritical to come down on the Linux community for not "supporting" the 770, when you aren't willing to make the effort to learn some Linux and meet them halfway.

Just my 2 cents.

-John

4. worth only two cents.

no other platform abandons a unit after a mere two years. period. Thats plain and simple ridiculous. Where do they think the first financial stream started? With the first buyers. Regardless of whether some of them could or couldn't afford to upgrade after such a short time.

iontruo2

2008-01-19, 17:43

Oh good god. You wouldn't happen to go by the name of AmishIndy on a certain mac gaming webboard, would you? <_<

The Classic Mac OS was barely an operating system. It was a horrible, unstable, hackish piece of junk (I should know, I used it for more than 10 years). OS 9 was perhaps only surpassed in its crappiness by 8.6, and it's a damn good thing they killed it dead when they did. Anybody who claims that the move from OS 9 to OS X was a bad thing, obviously has little understanding of the technical issues involved. :p

Thank god for FreeBSD and OS X and good riddance to bad rubbish!

No I don't.
Is your smug arrogance a sign of your young age or are you really this rude in 'general'?

I don't care to even address such foolishness, but at the time of something like Macos8.6, Windows was just a sad meager OS stumbling its way to functionality and stability and Linux was still fledgling. Few were involved in Unix at that time and the main tool for professionals in publishing and real pro media was the Mac OS. All the big software houses came through the Mac OS of those days. Adobe, Corel, Meta, Symantec, Mcaffee, Quark etc.

You having trouble staying on topic?

pipeline

2008-01-19, 17:58

iontruo, you can probably count on one hand the number of applications specifically written for maemo.. and most of those probably have unofficial or official nokia backing/collaboration.

So all these apps are really ports from the 'wonder linux community'... some of them amazingly port automatically with just a compile.... sometimes they will only compile using OS2007 or os2008 os images.

The people you are probably complaining about are people who do the apps as a hobby, i dont know of a single commercial app.

I agree with John in that i think your introduction to open source comes first with the realization that no one owes you anything because you havent paid a dime.

I agree with general too because even commercial developers wouldnt want to spend extra time supporting old environments... just not cost effective.

Your sole 'request' should be to nokia to provide you with os2008HE so that you are able to use all the apps which eventually get ported.

iontruo2

2008-01-19, 22:43

Perhaps you have misunderstand my post.
I have an N800, and was making general comment in sympathy with the poster who initiated this thread regarding 'his' feeling abandoned 'in general' with his N770. Surely anyone buying any computing product of any sort should be able to expect that it would last beyond one OS update (ie 2006->2007) and barely two years available.

I personally am impressed with this community and the software that people are developing. My main plug to others is that fact that everything is FREE.
No where in my comments do I specify Maemo or the open source community in my remarks as lacking or whatever. You are right that in many respects his complaint or 'sole request' as you said, perhaps should be direct to Nokia, but as this is the active forum zone for all things Internet Tablet N series, he felt at liberty to voice his frustration as a general feeling here.

I sympathized with that and used a few simple comparatives in my response.

Karel Jansens comment rang true for me: He said
"Good rant, but aimed at the wrong people. ITOS2008 is the responsibility of Nokia and Nokia alone and the main reason the programs you mention have left the 770 behind, is because the operating system isn't maintained to keep up with the new features of those programs.

Normally I'd agree that forced backwards compatibility is not a good thing, but common Nokia, the 770 is nigh on two years old, godsdammit! IBM continued to support OS/2 for almost ten years after they stopped even remembering what it was.

Karel nailed it and pointed the critisism in the appropriate direction. As well he also used a good contrasting example with his mention of IBM and OS/2.

This is kind of a moot point below, being that our community here is not commercial but I did feel moved to address it.

Pipeline said: "even commercial developers wouldn't want to spend extra time supporting old environments... just not cost effective.

Not sure that is true. That is in fact where they can cultivate the existing user base...and feed the upgrade curve most easily.
Even though some will own their units and make good use for some years, that is still a prime source for those that move forward with the subsequent evolution of the platform(productline), as exemplified by the General's remarks about his quick disposal of his N770 and then upgraded to the N800. "Bird in the hand".
Smart developers also go for the easiest cash flow. Starting over everytime and doing missionary work to draw in a virgin customer base is not a choice strategy.

Hedgecore

2008-01-22, 00:51

Gather round and I'll tell you a story from just over a year ago. Nokia spilled the beans and told us that our still as of yet unscratched 770s were being replaced by the N800. Chaos ensued and many here pledged to mail their feces stamped into N800 shaped bricks (I tried being an enterpreneur and selling the moulds) to Nokia's headquarters. The calm ensued the day the N800 began shipping, a gentle breeze was in the air... it was everyone tumbling like a house of cards to shell out another $400 a scant year after they did so on the 770. Same thing happened when the N810 came out, though more people are sticking with the N800.

I think I know what Nokia's 5 point plan is. It's to create 5 incredibly similar devices and derive 5x the profit out of them without the cost of R&D on 5 actual generations of growth and change.

My 770 is sitting in front of me with what will most likely be the last OS it'll get updated with. The apps on it are the ones I picked out what will most likely be the most updated application list for the most part.

The next Nokia tablet I buy will be the stage 5 one. And it better have a fellate function or neither me or Karel will buy one.

gnuite

2008-01-22, 02:51

Maemo Mapper has moved on to updated version with no OS2007HE version
This is not true at all. And forgive me if I take a small bit of offense to your assertion. Maemo Mapper was first developed on the 770, it has always worked on the 770, and it will always work on the 770.

You just joined in November, so maybe you weren't around when the N800 was first announced, but I was perhaps one of the most vocal developers against the way Nokia abandoned the Nokia 770 and OS2006. Making OS2007 work on the 770 should have been a priority. I still don't agree with the way Nokia handled it, but what's done is done. The only thing I could do was vow to continue support for the 770 (because, hey, I own one, too, and I'd like to use my own software on it).

And trust me, Nokia didn't make that particularly easy. They did the same thing with OS2008 (breaking backward compatibility), but at least they learned from their mistakes and made OS2008 available for the N800. OS2008 brought hardship only to developers, leaving users insulated from many of the negative effects, although applications generally still need to be ported to OS2008 before they can work.

Every single release of Maemo Mapper includes a version for the 770, with the exact same capabilities as the other versions. Just look at the release list in the Garage (https://garage.maemo.org/frs/?group_id=29). OS2007/N800 support started with v1.4, and OS2008 support started with v2.2. The most recent version, v2.3.1, still supports OS2006 and the Nokia 770. And all future versions will run on it, too.

As for OS2007HE, Maemo Mapper can work with it, if you're willing to do a little more work (and if you're using the "hacker edition" firmware, then you're obviously willing). Personally, I don't use OS2007HE (so I can't test Maemo Mapper on it), because its benefits aren't worth putting up with its shortcomings, but some people do, and some people run Maemo Mapper on it.

Or maybe you're talking about Maemo Mapper abandoning OS2005? It is true that Maemo Mapper v1.0 and greater do not support OS2005, but that is because there is no reason to run OS2005 on the Nokia 770. In fact, I would be surprised to hear that even a single Nokia 770 is still running OS2005. Users stubborn enough to run OS2005 probably don't have a problem sticking with Maemo Mapper v0.2.4.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, but I've spent a lot of my spare time making sure that Maemo Mapper works on every version of Maemo that is available. And I will continue to spend time with that goal in mind, at least as long as I have working 770 with which to test.

bunanson

2008-01-22, 03:24

This is not true at all. And forgive me if I take a small bit of offense to your assertion. Maemo Mapper was first developed on the 770, it has always worked on the 770, and it will always work on the 770.

MM 2.30, 2.31 were not available 24 hrs ago :), has been happily running on my 2007He, see list here too, http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9282

bun

Johnx

2008-01-22, 04:29

4. worth only two cents.

no other platform abandons a unit after a mere two years. period. Thats plain and simple ridiculous. Where do they think the first financial stream started? With the first buyers. Regardless of whether some of them could or couldn't afford to upgrade after such a short time.

Did you *read* what I wrote? All of it? You certainly *quoted* it...
"Nokia" dropped support for the 770 *and* made it difficult for the "Linux community" to continue to support it because they didn't release all their source. All that aside people in the "Linux community" (that's you, me, gnuite, Linux Torvalds, etc) are still interested in seeing the 770 continue to thrive. How will that happen? Either by waiting for Nokia to roll out 2008HE or by getting the current Maemo4.0 stuff into Debian/Fedora and getting that running on the 770.

As for the death of Mac OS 9: The best thing that could have happened to it was for it to be put into a sandbox and separated from the hardware. You should read the Wikipedia article on Mac OS 9 for a little technical background. Just because people use it doesn't make it good software.

Karel Jansens

2008-01-22, 12:12

And it better have a fellate function or neither me or Karel will buy one.

Dude! Is that, like on the roadmap?

Hedgecore

2008-01-22, 13:16

It's on my roadmap, tenderly written on a napkin in crayon. Dr. Ari's security detail won't let me get close enough to give it to him.

dburr10085

2008-01-22, 13:42

This is not true at all. And forgive me if I take a small bit of offense to your assertion. Maemo Mapper was first developed on the 770, it has always worked on the 770, and it will always work on the 770.

You just joined in November, so maybe you weren't around when the N800 was first announced, but I was perhaps one of the most vocal developers against the way Nokia abandoned the Nokia 770 and OS2006. Making OS2007 work on the 770 should have been a priority. I still don't agree with the way Nokia handled it, but what's done is done. The only thing I could do was vow to continue support for the 770 (because, hey, I own one, too, and I'd like to use my own software on it).

And trust me, Nokia didn't make that particularly easy. They did the same thing with OS2008 (breaking backward compatibility), but at least they learned from their mistakes and made OS2008 available for the N800. OS2008 brought hardship only to developers, leaving users insulated from many of the negative effects, although applications generally still need to be ported to OS2008 before they can work.

Every single release of Maemo Mapper includes a version for the 770, with the exact same capabilities as the other versions. Just look at the release list in the Garage (https://garage.maemo.org/frs/?group_id=29). OS2007/N800 support started with v1.4, and OS2008 support started with v2.2. The most recent version, v2.3.1, still supports OS2006 and the Nokia 770. And all future versions will run on it, too.

As for OS2007HE, Maemo Mapper can work with it, if you're willing to do a little more work (and if you're using the "hacker edition" firmware, then you're obviously willing). Personally, I don't use OS2007HE (so I can't test Maemo Mapper on it), because its benefits aren't worth putting up with its shortcomings, but some people do, and some people run Maemo Mapper on it.

Or maybe you're talking about Maemo Mapper abandoning OS2005? It is true that Maemo Mapper v1.0 and greater do not support OS2005, but that is because there is no reason to run OS2005 on the Nokia 770. In fact, I would be surprised to hear that even a single Nokia 770 is still running OS2005. Users stubborn enough to run OS2005 probably don't have a problem sticking with Maemo Mapper v0.2.4.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, but I've spent a lot of my spare time making sure that Maemo Mapper works on every version of Maemo that is available. And I will continue to spend time with that goal in mind, at least as long as I have working 770 with which to test.

G - I have nothing but the most respect for the work you have done with Maemo Mapper, it is definately my most favorite software for this device for sure. My original point may have been lost. What I was trying to convey was that several high visibility apps (mapper, canola) have released newer versions not compatable with N770 - I did not say that mapper does not work on the 770 "the newest version does not work without additional tinkering". My statement was that as much as I am trying to learn Linux, it's kinda hard when everything is a moving target. That being said, I am unable to use the latest and greatest as a lot of linux newbies are because we don't have the skills and we are being left out. Trust me - Microsoft makes me feel left out everyday because I don't have VISTA. This is one reason why I decided to give linux a try, but I'm starting to understand that you can be left out here also, so that is frustrating to me.
BTW - don't ever go by "joined date" for this board, I've been lurking for quite some time - I only joined when I had a question that I could not find the answer to by using the search function.

Sadavyk

2008-01-22, 14:37

Over here in the usa i see that nokia's is pushing hard to enter the market, all the stores sell nokia's devices i think that's cool but, just like any other place all the good stuff are on back order? anyway why the F**k is the 770 the same price as the n800????????????????????????????????????????????? can some one help me understand?

dburr10085

2008-01-22, 14:54

GeneralAntilles

2008-01-22, 15:16

I really appreciate all of your efforts. I'm really angry at Nokia for releasing 3 devices within the past 5yrs with minimal support.

A 12-month refresh cycle is pretty normal in consumer electronics, in fact, it's actually rather slow compared to some markets.

The "minimal support" is limited to the 770, the N800 is still supported 100%.

I just wished Nokia had let the previous machines run their corse before releasing a new version for us to buy.

What, and still be stuck with the slow-*** 770 after 3 years? Thanks, but no thanks. Yes, not providing an immediate (official) upgrade to OS2007 for the 770 was a raw deal, but Nokia has learned their lesson there and there's work ongoing on OS2008HE. Support for the N800 has been promised through Diablo and may go beyond that since you can't support the N810 without supporting the N800.

Consumer electronics change very rapidly, Nokia is no different from any other manufacturer in the field (I don't see any major software updates for Palm devices :rolleyes:). Their big mistake was to treat the tablet market too much like the cellular market where nobody expects system updates. But, like I said before, I believe Nokia has learned its lesson here and future products will have official support for much longer than the 770.

As the guy above me said - they can't even keep their pricing structure up to date. Thanks Nokia - lesson learned.

Isn't the 770 EoL anyway?

iontruo2

2008-01-22, 17:07

After reading all of the comments - I appologize to all of the programmers who think my anger is directed toward them. I really appreciate all of your efforts. I'm really angry at Nokia for releasing 3 devices within the past 5yrs with minimal support. I understand that you need to continue to make your software and it is easier for you on a better machine. I just wished Nokia had let the previous machines run their corse before releasing a new version for us to buy. As the guy above me said - they can't even keep their pricing structure up to date. Thanks Nokia - lesson learned.

I feel ya there. That was much my sentiment when replying earlier. More general yet needing to be clearly addressed at Nokia. Our community and the programmers that are here have been A+, as well showcased during Christmas and the repostory and download issues. The quality of programs I think surpasses many of the commercial mobile apps I have seen elsewhere. Canola2, Kagu,maemopad+,Quiver,etc etc are some really well thought out apps. Many I have yet to break through the surface of and use in depth.
I would say at my current level of use if they fail to move forward nicely with the N800, I could still find much good use with what is already available.

Vinh

2008-01-22, 18:24

When I purchased my 770, I knew it wasn't 100% polished. I read the forums and determined it was good enough to use and I was willing to wait for further /software/ updates. At least the hardware wasn't going to be "obsoleted"... I didn't mind the 800's release, until it was announced that its new OS would be incompatible with the 770. Okay, I thought, at least we're on GNU/Linux, so source will be available for the community. Erm... that didn't happen. Due to legal issues, not all of the OS could be released. So, here I am, with a perfectly good piece of hardware, barely a year old (at the time) and no upgrade path. I couldn't even pay for an upgrade. (Maybe this is because Nokia knew that the number of 770's sold wouldn't support a software upgrade team?)

In contrast, my /nine/ year old Pentium II 350 Mhz PC runs the latest GNU/Linux SuSE 10.x release. It's my primary computer too.

I wouldn't have minded paying a fee to upgrade my 770's software. It's the expensive upgrade of hardware and software that I have problems with. The hardware is perfectly capable, why toss it?

I've been happy with my 770. I've taken it on every trip and used it when I couldn't get access to a terminal. I would just like some more stability and some upgraded web browsing capabilities, like Flash 9, just so my browser isn't behind my desktop, which I'll say again, is a /nine/ year old Pentium II 350 Mhz.

Simon

2008-01-23, 08:09

Been a while since I posted here. I wholeheartedly agree the 770 was definitely forgotten by Nokia. I can't comment about the rest of the community since frankly I have stopped looking at what is going on some time ago.

I started as an early adaptor and it wasn't easy getting a 770 in NZ when they were first released. I still remember how botched that release was. But I still decided to get one and when I did I made an effort to learn some Linux and even did a bit of hardware hacking. I used the 770 a lot at first. Web browsing, email, media playing and FBReader mainly. I was always hoping for some good PDA software but in the end gave up waiting. There was always something around but it was never quite finished. And that is basically my whole problem with the 770 now and the fact Nokia stopped supporting it. The whole device was never quite finished. The software was always a bit, well, beta. They basically stopped supporting a device they never bloody finished!

I do still use my 770 most days but only for simple web browsing and email. And it is still buggy as hell. I should say receiving email as I don't send email on it. That's too dodgy and I have lost too many messages painfully tapped out on the onscreen keyboard. The handwriting recognition never worked properly for me - never was as easy/quick to use as the original Palm grafitti I found. Actually I still use my old Palm V more than the 770 (for different uses obviously) because it just works. It is old, old tech but it does what it was designed to do and still does it well. The 770 never worked properly. It was almost there but just not quite. Mine still crashes or locks up in one way or another almost every day I use it. I did try the HE software but found that just gave a new set of bugs. Perhaps it is much better now? I don't imagine I will bother trying it to find out.

I don't watch media on it anymore. Converting the files was always a pain (although Urho Konttori's Media Converter was the single best app I came across for the 770 (which is kind of funny since it doesn't run ON the 770) and then the headphone socket broke. Another bug in the design. I did fix that by resoldering the connector but by then I was out of the habit of using it so never went back.

As I said I do still use my 770 but only at home. No longer do I carry it about with me. No longer do I look for exciting new apps to put on it (and reading here again I see there probably aren't many). And soon, in a few weeks, I think it will be time to retire it. I don't imagine it will get used much again like my old Palm V which is still useful. And I won't be upgrading to another Nokia Internet device in the near future. I am getting an Eee PC! And the first thing I am going to do is install XP on it :)

And actually, now I think of it I should be able to sync the Palm V to the Eee with the right adapters. That's kind of perverted!

Simon

Hedgecore

2008-01-23, 23:23

GeneralAntilles

2008-01-23, 23:59

General: 12 month refresh cycle? That's not what happened here. This was almost like releasing CD format and moving to DVD within 12 months and casually paying attention to CD for a short period before forgetting about it. You can stay bleeding edge man, I'm waiting for stage 5. :)

With small consumer electronics like these? Heck yeah! Look at mp3 players, cellphones, televisions, laptops, cameras, GPS navigators, blah blah blah—the list goes on. There are tons of devices with refresh cycles of the same length. It's nothing unusual. Especially considering the cellular market that Nokia is used to where released devices are pretty much a done deal.

Simon

2008-01-24, 00:44

Drewvt

2008-01-24, 10:42

Yeah, cellphones really are a "throwaway" market. It's pathetic to think how wasteful this industry is, but then partly it's because the consumers think the same way: phones dies, they go "YAY, we get to buy a brand-spankin' one with more bells and whistles, shop shop shop, just throw the broken one in the trash."

rtrudel

2008-01-24, 12:30

Don't mistake me, I'm not promoting Verizon as a charitable organization, but they DO have a box in every store to donate your old phones to battered women's shelters.

The idea is that they give the phones to women at risk and when the women decide enough is enough they can use the phones to call for help.

Over the past 10 years I've probably put 8 or 9 phones in that box (there are 4 phones on my plan).

But you're right, American culture is that once there's something shinier, what you have goes in the trash.

bac522

2008-01-24, 12:49

With small consumer electronics like these? Heck yeah! Look at mp3 players, cellphones, televisions, laptops, cameras, GPS navigators, blah blah blah—the list goes on. There are tons of devices with refresh cycles of the same length. It's nothing unusual. Especially considering the cellular market that Nokia is used to where released devices are pretty much a done deal.

Huh??? Your logic is totally flawed, what exactly are you trying to argue? No kid that products get upgraded, but at least the previous product that was upgraded worked!

Simply put the OS on the 770 was never brought to a state that it should have been brought too in order to make the 770 a fully usable device for the masses. Instead they snubbed their noses at 770 users and told them good luck when releasing the N800. The only reason the 2007HE came out is because of user backlash and even then its called the "Hacker Edition" which really doesn't instill much confidence in the release and/or Nokia. Simply put Nokia for the most part abandon the 770 and its abandonment has nothing to do with natural product upgrades that take place; we all expect that, but at least fixed the product they had in the market place first rather then turning a blind eye!

Anyone who upgraded to the N800 from the 770 is foolish for supporting a company who doesn't support its existing customer base.

muki

2008-01-24, 13:46

... but then partly it's because the consumers think the same way: phones dies, they go "YAY, we get to buy a brand-spankin' one with more bells and whistles, shop shop shop, just throw the broken one in the trash."

I don't even think most wait until it dies, more like "this phone looks soooooo out of date, I *need* a new one!" :rolleyes:

Re end-of-lined devices and waste: I think manufacturers should be legally obliged to release all information and source code on/before EOL date. There would patent problems no doubt but as e-waste (g-waste?) grows then something should be done.

Re 770, can't believe they eol'ed it so soon. It is still a very capable device and IMHO feels best in the hand out of the three (N810 comes close but is slippery). Me can't complain though as I got two at knock down price :D

GeneralAntilles

2008-01-24, 15:09

Huh??? Your logic is totally flawed, what exactly are you trying to argue? No kid that products get upgraded, but at least the previous product that was upgraded worked!

I don't agree with what Nokia did, my attempt was simply to explain the potential logic behind their moves. Besides, if you think that all the devices I mentioned are all released as well-working products, you, sir, are mistaken. ;)

Anyone who upgraded to the N800 from the 770 is foolish for supporting a company who doesn't support its existing customer base.

Meh, I got a lot of use out of my 770s (and still do), and I get a even more use out of my N800. Personally, I'm a happy customer.

dburr10085

2008-01-24, 16:22

Meh, I got a lot of use out of my 770s (and still do), and I get a even more use out of my N800. Personally, I'm a happy customer.

I think that's what the problem is. We all bought computers in the mid 90's, took them home only to find out that the computer you just bought is obsolete and now on sale. Lesson learned. Smart people are not going to fall for that behavior again. Nokia needs to release a device that they plan on standing behind. They haven't stood behind any of these devices - all they did was release a new device and tell you "ohh this one is better". How many times are you going to buy their latest device?? - everyone must upgrade at some point, but this is crazy. Look at the release dates below:

N770 - NOVEMBER 2005 (damn well 2006)
N800 - 2007
N810 - 2007
This means that while they were selling you on how great the N800 was - they were already planning to sell something better!

Does this seem like they are standing behind their products or do they just want to make sure they sell more than one to anybody who falls for "ohh this one is better". With this track record, don't be in my place next year (or later this year) when they forget about your N800. Will you then buy the N810?

bac522

2008-01-24, 16:35

I don't agree with what Nokia did, my attempt was simply to explain the potential logic behind their moves

There is no logic behind their move. They don't look at the IT market as being viable to the core segment of their business, thus they don't care if they upset their current customer base. Then and even now I suspect the IT is nothing more then a test product to see if there are options that they can eventually incorporate into their cell phones such as using a Linux as a based OS or incorporating VoWLAN or VoIP with cellular voice. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if the N810 was the last of its product line. It clearly doesn't contribute much to the product line since, other then for a one sentence line, there wasn't any further mention in their financials as being a major contributor or significant product for the company; eventually someone at the top will kill the product off.

tbutler@mac.com

2008-01-24, 17:44

With small consumer electronics like these? Heck yeah! Look at mp3 players, cellphones, televisions, laptops, cameras, GPS navigators, blah blah blah—the list goes on. There are tons of devices with refresh cycles of the same length. It's nothing unusual. Especially considering the cellular market that Nokia is used to where released devices are pretty much a done deal.

Except that in your example, each new generation doesn't obsolete the prior generation when it's released. MP3 players? I still have an old Rio 500 from 1999 that will work with MP3 files ripped or sold today. Cellphones? How long has it been since a network upgrade killed old cellphones? TVs? Next year's switch to digital TVs will obsolete old ones, unless they get a converter box... but that's been the first major format obsolescence since color TV came in in the 1960's. How many of the consumer electronics devices you name above follow the specific 770 situation, where the manufacturer killed off compatibility between generations?

Heck, how many years back does software compatibility go in the Palm lineup? I think current Palm software will run on units going at least as far back as the Tungsten T, which was a 2002 release...

linux_author

2008-01-24, 18:01

There is no logic behind their move. They don't look at the IT market as being viable to the core segment of their business, thus they don't care if they upset their current customer base. Then and even now I suspect the IT is nothing more then a test product to see if there are options that they can eventually incorporate into their cell phones such as using a Linux as a based OS or incorporating VoWLAN or VoIP with cellular voice. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if the N810 was the last of its product line. It clearly doesn't contribute much to the product line since, other then for a one sentence line, there wasn't any further mention in their financials as being a major contributor or significant product for the company; eventually someone at the top will kill the product off.

+1

- that's my feeling as well... compared to the number of phones people buy, the IT line *has* to be small 'taters in Nokia's lineup, and at the whim of a corporate nod could go away at any time...

- but i also understand the angst, anguish, and disappointment echoed in the posts in this thread... ask US Sharp Zaurus SL-5500 owners how they feel (most of us went to OpenZaurus right after purchasing and opening the box of our units to augment and fix the 'official' software)... and btw, the Zaurus is *still* being actively supported by its community...

- we're all experienced consumers here, aren't we? it just makes sense to:

1. research all purchases (read all you can)

2. never buy version 1.0 (expect revisions and updates)

3. expect no support from the manufacturer after purchase (what if maemo.org goes away tomorrow?)

In several years, the non-maemo.org repositories will become *very* important to all of us! we need some *mirrors*!

4. expect to be more productive if it runs Linux (craft your own tools)

5. expect to be able to fix *some* of your own problems if it runs Linux ("Use the Source, Luke")

6. not expect open-source developments to 'scratch your itch' (free, but not free beer)

7. be amazed that a US$200 device can do so much!

- JMHO

sleepkyng

2008-02-02, 18:13

frappe987

2008-02-06, 03:44

is the zaurus community more active because you can have you own os?
why doesn't the 770 community build a new os from the ground up?

forgive my ignorance, as i am not one of the holy linux speakers as seen elsewhere on this forum :D

I am very much a newbie to Linux but there are so many Distros out there can we not install another I realize this has been thought of before and I assume its the hardware but is there not another Distro possibility? I am a N770 owner and sad, flash 9 would be fantastic.

Johnx

2008-02-06, 04:42

You might recognize me as that crazy guy that wants to get Debian running on his N800. :D Well, I don't have a 770 so I have no way to test it, but there's no reason to think that the same thing won't be possible for the 770. Right now this is in the very early stages (I don't really want to call it beta yet), but I can currently boot Debian off an SD card, and get into X with the touchscreen working. Wifi and usb networking also work. On the TODO list is hardware buttons, power saving (some is working I think), and sound.

Why Debian? They have *recent* versions of libhildon1 and other core maemo stuff in their repositories and an active ARM EABI port. As time goes by, more maemo stuff will show up, I'm sure. I've already gotten a binary version of leafpad for chinook running on it with nothing but a tweak to it's dependencies.

Now, to make this work on the 770, I will need help! Just trying it and helping me troubleshoot it will go a long way towards getting the 770 supported. If no one helps, I don't think there will ever be a working, bootable version for the 770.

Links to Debian stuff:
thread: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15577&highlight=debian
wiki page: http://www.internettablettalk.com/wiki/index.php?title=Debian

(And here's a brain dump of other options for 770 owners: -OpenEmbedded has a system for building distros for embedded Linux systems. Poky Linux is built out of this.
-A Debian chroot will also get you some options...but it's kind of a waste when you only have 64MB of RAM.)

-John

Drewvt

2008-02-06, 12:35

I wouldn't be surprised one bit if the N810 was the last of its product line.

Eh. A few years ago some people thought that it would all end with the 770 because it wasn't a financial, corporate success.

We're end users, gotta think like end users. It's all right to speculate but in the end, who cares what Nokia's corporate board is thinking right now?

pycage

2008-02-06, 17:23

Eh. A few years ago some people thought that it would all end with the 770 because it wasn't a financial, corporate success.

We're end users, gotta think like end users. It's all right to speculate but in the end, who cares what Nokia's corporate board is thinking right now?

I also don't think that the N810 will be the end of the line. Nokia already announced the next tablet (even if it's only a N800 or N810 with WiMAX).
You should keep in mind that internet tablets are not an important market at the moment. But this will be rapidly evolving and Nokia is looking for some strong ground in the post-cellphone era. They are more and more evolving towards an internet company. I think the tablets are an important playground for them.

GeneralAntilles

2008-02-06, 17:59

Eh. A few years ago some people thought that it would all end with the 770 because it wasn't a financial, corporate success.

. . . and they turned out to be an overwhelming success for Nokia!

The ITs aren't going anywhere soon.

dburr10085

2008-02-06, 18:01

I also don't think that the N810 will be the end of the line. Nokia already announced the next tablet (even if it's only a N800 or N810 with WiMAX).
You should keep in mind that internet tablets are not an important market at the moment. But this will be rapidly evolving and Nokia is looking for some strong ground in the post-cellphone era. They are more and more evolving towards an internet company. I think the tablets are an important playground for them.

Just speaking for myself, but if you plan on being successful, then you must sell to a broad base. I feel that Nokia is more concerned with fast money rather than long money. By releasing so many devices in such a short span while providing minimal support of the operation system they are basically flooding the market hoping you buy one of their devices, maybe two. This will get a lot of revenue, but if it continues more and more people will see through this practice and become disgruntled. Imagine if Apple kept releasing new Iphones instead of upgrading and supporting the current software - imagine the outcry. Well this is what Nokia is doing. Here we are with 3 different devices in 2 1/2 years, many differnt software versions, some work with some devices and not others. They are now going to release a 4th device soon - what will this device be compatable with? In my opinion I may one day buy an Ipod if they continue to show that they do stand behind their product, they do consider future growth of the product (if Nokia had considered future growth, we wouldn't have so many incompatable OS's out now). I do really like my device, but I feel that Nokia doesn't.

pycage

2008-02-06, 20:11

Nokia is experimenting and following the well-known "release-early, release-often" policy. This includes throwing out new devices with experimental features (webcam, FM-radio, great speakers, light-sensor, GPS, keyboard, ...). But selling to a broad base can be counter-productive. If the products aren't mainstream-ready (we all know that they're not yet ;) ), the mainstream people will remember to avoid the products.
Nokia sells the tablets to power users at the moment, and that's their current target audience for the tablets. Eventually there might also appear NITs in the E series (with PIM and all that stuff for enterprise users).

dburr10085

2008-02-06, 20:39

Pycage - Maybe you are right. I just wished that they made the first device powerful enough to handle future releases. Even if it meant a decrease in speed.

GeneralAntilles

2008-02-06, 20:45

I feel that Nokia is more concerned with fast money rather than long money.

By selling a few hundred thousand tablets? Please. . . . It's a drop in the bucket compared to the mobile phone market. This definitely isn't about making a quick buck.

By releasing so many devices in such a short span while providing minimal support of the operation system they are basically flooding the market hoping you buy one of their devices, maybe two. This will get a lot of revenue, but if it continues more and more people will see through this practice and become disgruntled.

Flooding what market? The market that they pretty much created? And how? Releasing one device a year isn't "flooding" by any stretch of the term.

Minimal support? I seem to be receiving frequent and useful OS upgrades, and maemo.org is a huge resource for both developers and users in learning and distribution. Again, a few hundred thousand tablets is not revenue for Nokia.

Imagine if Apple kept releasing new Iphones instead of upgrading and supporting the current software - imagine the outcry. Well this is what Nokia is doing.

Heck, this is exactly what Apple does (well, with the iPod—not enough historical data so far to make any argument on this point involving the iPhone as there's only one of them).

Here we are with 3 different devices in 2 1/2 years, many differnt software versions, some work with some devices and not others. They are now going to release a 4th device soon - what will this device be compatable with?

Er, well, we have four (well, you could make an argument for five) releases of the OS. OS2005 is entirely irrelevant, and if we consider the official releases only, then we're down to OS2006 and OS2008. That's two OS releases to worry about from Nokia's standpoint. With unofficial releases we're basically down to two again (OS2007HE and OS2008).

Old OS releases not running on newer hardware makes perfect sense, and the 770 incident, while unfortunate, isn't likely to be repeated. Work on OS2008HE is underway (so we'll probably end up with pretty good compatibility across at least three devices—probably five). Nokia has already said that the N800 will be good through at least Diablo (OS2009) (which wont be on the WiMAX tablet coming out soon).

In my opinion I may one day buy an Ipod if they continue to show that they do stand behind their product, they do consider future growth of the product (if Nokia had considered future growth, we wouldn't have so many incompatable OS's out now).

Library breaks were necessary to keep the OS up to date with the upstream. It's unfortunate that it affects end-users so much, yet it is what it is, it's not something easily avoided.

pycage

2008-02-06, 20:48

Pycage - Maybe you are right. I just wished that they made the first device powerful enough to handle future releases. Even if it meant a decrease in speed.

Yes, I wish so too... :(
Perhaps we'll see 2008HE on the 770 one day... :D

krisse

2008-02-07, 05:21

I've got to agree with GeneralAntilles here, Nokia's approach to the tablets has been VERY restrained compared to their phone releases.

Nokia launch about 30 or 40 phone models a year including many smartphones, so even if you buy the latest Nokia phone you can bet that a newer model will be out within a week or two. This is what all phone makers do, it seems to be what the market wants, and if the iPhone takes off (ie. if it sells significantly more than the 0.5% market share it currently has) then Apple will be bringing out several models a year as well. The phone market is so fast moving because it sells more than all other electronic gadgets put together, so the time to recoup development costs on a particular model is much much shorter.

Nokia's tablets by comparison have had three models in two and a half years. This is very slow going by Nokia's standards, I don't think they're driving people into buying new devices at all.

If they wanted to force people into buying the latest tablet, they certainly wouldn't have issued OS 2008 for the N800 just as they were launching the N810, or bothered releasing Hacker Edition OS 2007 for the 770.

Modulok

2008-02-07, 08:17

I read some of the posts here and I think waiting for the goodwill of Nokia is the wrong way. The worst what coult happen to the 770 are the Hacker Editions. They only block development of a free OS.

The solution is already in front of your nose. Currently I play with the debian image of apple2, which is fun. I use dual boot and can choose between "ebook mode" (maemo) and "all is possible mode" (debian) :).

@Johnx
Why not group together with Apple2 and others to make a debian rom for all devices. The worst what could happen is that Nokia pays you a large amount of money to stop :).
I think the community would support you also ...

fanoush

2008-02-07, 10:09

The worst what coult happen to the 770 are the Hacker Editions. They only block development of a free OS.
How exactly does HE block it? By providing a choice? How is this different from OS2006? So I guess you'd like to limit people's choices so they need to pick free os (as the only choice)?

BTW, one can also help with Mamona (http://dev.openbossa.org/trac/mamona/).

Of course anyone is free to do what (s)he wants.

I've seen too much 'wasted' time on opie, gpe and whatever so my choice of wasting my time is collaborating with Maemo so the community around it grows and Nokia has reasons for opening it up even more. It is slow process but it is moving in right direction and we may end up with healthy open platform big enough to get into mainstream and have plenty of applications like palmos or windows mobile.

Johnx

2008-02-07, 11:13

@fanoush: As much as I'm happy that Nokia continues to provide some support for the 770, I think that Modulok is technically right: If Nokia had decided to just drop the 770 on the floor when the N800 came out I think we would have seen 1) a lot *more* outrage and 2) more effort to get something besides ITOS on the 770. I don't know which way would have turned out better, but either way, it's useless speculating about "might have beens."

As for mamona: I looked at it but decided on Debian in the end, for three reasons:
1) I'm not interested in trying to put together a whole distribution from the ground up. It's way too much work for a small group of people to ever do effectively.
2) Debian is the closest match to ITOS in terms of package structure and naming conventions.
3) Other people are already bringing Maemo to Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/pkg-maemo

With that said, I *also* am committed to Maemo. I've owned a Zaurus 5500 and C1000* and have watched the transition from Sharp's software -> OPIE -> GPE and realize that it fractures communities to have so many different projects with so few devs. In most of the ways that matter Maemo seems "good enough." To me, getting Debian on the 770 seems like the shortest way to getting Maemo 4.x on the 770. And in the long run, getting Debian on the N8x0 seems like a good way to ensure that the tablets will be supported in one way or another as long as Debian armel is around (which should be quite a while...)

@Modulok: You're right. I should contact him. I would have sooner but he doesn't seem very active here after his initial post(s). :shrugs:

Modulok

2008-02-07, 12:50

How exactly does HE block it? By providing a choice? How is this different from OS2006? So I guess you'd like to limit people's choices so they need to pick free os (as the only choice)?

BTW, one can also help with Mamona (http://dev.openbossa.org/trac/mamona/).

Of course anyone is free to do what (s)he wants.

I've seen too much 'wasted' time on opie, gpe and whatever so my choice of wasting my time is collaborating with Maemo so the community around it grows and Nokia has reasons for opening it up even more. It is slow process but it is moving in right direction and we may end up with healthy open platform big enough to get into mainstream and have plenty of applications like palmos or windows mobile.

I still use maemo for some tasks because for these tasks I have no choice ... at the moment.

I personally think the HE is a bait on a hook. It makes developer think that everything is ok and there is no need to do something about an alternative OS. It shows user how nice the next OS version looks like but it is not fully compatible and not officially supported by nokia => to have fun buy a new device.

Johnx and Apple2 have shown that debian is running on the nokia 770 and the n800 (also n810?) what is more than nokia seems to be able to.
There is no need to start from scratch for every new ARM compatible device. Debian is running fast on the nokia 770 and surely will not slow down on a n800.

If you still believe that nokia is interested in building a free linux distribution then look how nokia is maximising its gain. You just have to read the latest news ...
If business runs as usual then we will see a a fork of QT sooner or later.

Johnx

2008-02-07, 13:06

@Modulok: I believe "Hanlon's razor" applies here: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." Nokia's forking from Debian is probably just an unfortunate result of Debian not having an armel port when Nokia started with ITOS, and a simple case of software diverging over time.
As someone who was previously tasked with getting Debian to fit in a 512MB flash drive for work (web kiosks) I can tell you that it is very, very easy to start diverging from your upstream distro when space becomes a problem. Fitting Maemo in 128MB of flash is quite an incredible feat, and obviously sacrifices were required along the way. I can tell you right now that my minimally functional Debian requires 550MB+ of flash. This can be reduced but it will never fit in the onboard NAND. Also, Debian is definitely using more memory than ITOS. This can be reduced but probably not solved entirely without making it something else besides Debian...
Also, I really do trust at least the Maemo team not to actively screw us over. They're not out to get you! Nokia as a whole probably doesn't care about us enough to be even bothering to use bait and switch tactics against us...
That being said, it *is* important not to be stuck in a "vendor lock-in" situation. But, let's concentrate on doing something productive rather than speculating on what Nokia might or might not be trying to accomplish.

pycage

2008-02-07, 13:24

Nokia's forking from Debian is probably just an unfortunate result of Debian not having an armel port when Nokia started with ITOS, and a simple case of software diverging over time.

Nope, the first ITOS was arm (not armel) and arm-Debian had been around for a while then and you even were able to install some Debian packages on the OS.

Modulok

2008-02-07, 14:04

[...] But, let's concentrate on doing something productive rather than speculating on what Nokia might or might not be trying to accomplish.

That's a word. I am currently productive :) ...
If you, Apple2 and perhaps others can manage to get "nearly" the same debian running on all the IT I will help finding bugs and possible solutions to get apps running. Then the whole community can contribute.

fanoush

2008-02-07, 14:26

I can tell you right now that my minimally functional Debian requires 550MB+ of flash. This can be reduced but it will never fit in the onboard NAND. Also, Debian is definitely using more memory than ITOS. This can be reduced but probably not solved entirely without making it something else besides Debian...
So this is exactly what happened with Maemo. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you stay compatible with Debian or create your own leaner version and break compatibility.

Modulok

2008-02-07, 15:07

@
As someone who was previously tasked with getting Debian to fit in a 512MB flash drive for work (web kiosks) I can tell you that it is very, very easy to start diverging from your upstream distro when space becomes a problem. Fitting Maemo in 128MB of flash is quite an incredible feat, and obviously sacrifices were required along the way. I can tell you right now that my minimally functional Debian requires 550MB+ of flash. This can be reduced but it will never fit in the onboard NAND. Also, Debian is definitely using more memory than ITOS. This can be reduced but probably not solved entirely without making it something else besides

I hope you dont misunderstand the output of the "top" command as memory usage. For a memory manager it makes sense to allocate more ram than needed for speed issues (less fragmentation). If other applications need ram it can free some.
Just look how many windows you can open in debian and how many in maemo on our tablet :).

I think 550MB is a good start :). I see no need to put debian on the internal NAND, which cannot be replaced easily.

Johnx

2008-02-07, 15:12

@fanoush: Agreed. Everything is a compromise. The trick is finding the *right* compromise. To make the system fit into 128MB of flash (probably more like 256MB uncompressed) you lose a lot of functionality. Meanwhile I haven't taken even the most basic measures with Debian to make it lighter. Switching the default shell (not the user's shell...) to dash and skipping quite a few services that autostart will save lots of RAM. Recompiling critical packages with better optimization is possible as well without breaking compatibility with upstream Debian. Nokia didn't really try that hard to stay compatible with Debian. IIRC, their lsb package is more like Debian's lsb-core, for example and that's a ton of breakage right there.

BTW, I *will* have my cake and eat it, too...it will just take some time. :D

-John