View Full Version : 1st UMPC goes on sale
I hesitate to call it a competitor ($1,000, not pocketable, heavy and who knows what battery life will be), but here is the link.
http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/05/02/samsung_umpc_bestbuy/
takumikai
2006-05-02, 06:54
lol. I don't mean to defame the Nokia 770, but I would have definetely bought this if the price was a whole lot cheaper... But then again... A submini PC would have been even better!
The Samsung Q1 handles local TV (i think), runs Windows XP (I'm a Windows freak), Has a 900 MHz Celeron M processor, 512MB of RAM (non-upgradable), A USB female port (as host), WiFi, 20 or 40 GB Hard Drive (I think), a 800x480 TFT touch screen and... Is really expensive.
Many people think this is a failed product right away without trying the product out. There are some cons that are true though... For example the plastic does look cheap and feels weak in hands. There is no keyboard or mouse and the basic controls are very limited. The Q1 is big compared to the 770 and the PSP. Also, many of the components are non-upgradable.
To my understanding, this is a great product. It is much more powerful then the 770 for example almost 4 times more processor speed and 8 times more RAM (that is more than enough for a tablet PC). This is supposed to be not a laptop replacement, but kinda like a mini-PC (Nokia 770 but a little more powerful). The 20 or 40 GB hard drive is more than enough. It doesn't need a memory card (especially the RS-MMC that is rare, provides little storage and is expensive). Also, this thing does Windows XP tablet PC. Which is awesome because I'm a Windows freak. However, if a person say, likes Linux, he can always install a Linux variant. It is also TECHNICALLY possible to run Mac OS because now Macintosh runs on Intel based processors. The USB port also means, keyboard & mouse support, thumbdrives, memory card readers/writers, USB hub for more USB devices, bluetooth... the possiblity stretches on. To my understanding, it supports instant on which loads a Linux OS and plays movies, music, etc. without booting into Windows. The TV standard is awesome too because I believe a TV tuner is built into the PC so you can watch TV that is being aired though (need to get more info on this though). One thing to note is that the big metal sticking up think DOESN'T LOOK like a antenna but a stylus while it's being taken out. Many people think it is an antenna but if you look carefully, it looks like a really long stylus. But, I'm not sure so you might wanna check it up again.
So to my understanding, this is a product with GREAT potential despite the cost. So to my rating, 5 stars!
It has many features, but I don't think saying "despite the cost" is really justified. The cost is a critical part of the product. Otherwise things like OQO or Vertu phones :) could be called great.
Throwing every feature imaginable - hard drives, fast processors, lots of ram etc. - into a product ends up with a product that: costs way too much, is big and bulky (over 700 grams), has many features that won't be used anyway by a large percentage of the users. Imho things like the ipod show that it's better to focus to a particular usage and do that really well, than to try to give a mediocre performance in many areas.
I can't see myself spending that much money on a device like that. I'd either buy a full laptop or then something actually pocketable. For 300 euros it would perhaps be a different story...
c1261015
2006-05-02, 08:53
That is a question for Nokia and maemo developers when UMPC now reach the market. During my last trip abroad I took N770 instead of my laptop to see whether N770 can really replace a notebook (UMPC in the future?). The answer is yes, but with one exception: you can’t control your money. Internet banking software typically needs Java for its functionality and if internet is a killing application for N770, then Java (JVM) has to be available. The lack of Java is surprising for me, since N770 hardware (OMAP1710) is designed to support Java applications.
Conclusion: With UMPC you can control your account and transfer your money. With N770 you can’t (now?). I hope that developers will solve this problem quickly.
I guess that depends on the bank and/or the country. My own bank's net access to account management is rather plain HTML and works just fine in the 770's Opera over https...
Throwing every feature imaginable - hard drives, fast processors, lots of ram etc. - into a product ends up with a product that: costs way too much, is big and bulky (over 700 grams), has many features that won't be used anyway by a large percentage of the users.
Another problem with including lots of hardware is that it shortens battery life, which is as much a part of portability as size and weight.
The simple reason that I would never even consider lugging one of these umpc's around is simple. I shouldnt have to update virus definitions on a freakin portable device. Being a windows machine, its going to be just as vulnerable as every other windows PC out there. And by the time you set up spysweeper, Norton/McAfee AV, and automatic updates... That celeron isnt gonna cut it.
Now going back the the having things that do one thing really well...
Cheap latop = $499 (on sale, Toshiba celeron 1.2ghz, Great for webbrowsing)
Ipod = $299 (Great for music!)
Portable DVD PLayer = $129
Total = $930
It would actually be a bit cheaper to buy all these... Hell, they would fit in your pocket as well as that 7 inch screen would.
(Did anyone notice that at 7 inches, 800x480, That UMPC has the same resolution as the 770? Correct me if im wrong)
Remote User
2006-05-02, 16:32
800x480 TFT touch screen
It is much more powerful then the 770 for example almost 4 times more processor speed and 8 times more RAM (that is more than enough for a tablet PC).The display on this device is interesting because it is a single chip lcd panel (http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/05/02/samsung_single-chip_7in_lcd/)
The 770 has the integral ability, however, to be a remote display device. That means that it can devote its processing to display and user input operations, and not have to actually run an application or store/access data. Side by side with a UMPC that is handling display and user input operations as well as running an app and storing/accessing data the 770 will outperform it.
A UMPC is limited to whatever processing power and storage it is equipped with while the 770 is limited to the processing power and storage of the various supercomputing clusters that the icons on its gui monitor and/or control. The 770 will win any performance contest that it enters because it is designed to produce a user experience that combines the 770's local display and input processing with any remote number crunching, i/o enhanced system it is authorized to connect to. It isn't a PC - it's a network display which has a versatile implementation of an OS that makes it much more than a terminal, too.
But when a 770 is not connected to the network, then its performance is overshadowed by a UMPC tablet that will appear in several months, you say? Well, yes, but now you've taken the fish out of the water and you would tell us that not only can it no longer swim but it will die.
Duh.
The 770 isn't a UMPC, costs about 1/3 what a UMPC costs, and is designed as a network device, so comparing performance of the 770 off the network to anything is senseless. It's a window on the network - make your comparisons when it is being used as a window on the network. Then we'll see what happens.
Can a UMPC, at three or four times the cost, outperform the 770 when being used as a window on the network? Only if it can somehow significantly lower network latencies and higher display rendition than the 770 to justify the cost difference. And if the network latencies and display rendition improvements exist and are perceptible, then the UMPC is a better network window. Unless and until that is demonstrated the UMPC is not a step forward except as a handheld computing device.
I think that Micro$oft and the UMPC makers think that the public is ready to embrace the 800x480 display factor in 7" handheld devices as a replacement for a PC. We'll find out, I guess. I'm sceptical about that. I hope we don't see too many reviews that express disappointment of how a fish out of water (a 770 not being used as a network window) can't swim.
I have just been too spoiled by the size of the 770. I can't see myself lugging around a UMPC of that size, I might as well just take my Sony U101 which has a keyboard.
The 770 has the integral ability, however, to be a remote display device. That means that it can devote its processing to display and user input operations, and not have to actually run an application or store/access data.
The term for this used to be "thin client", and yes it's not fair to look at the 770 as anything but a networked device. But, as a practical matter, it's too hard to use my 770 this way, and especially in a VPN connection w/ a windows pc connected to my wifi router. It can't really do this at present for a wide range of applications.
Remote User
2006-05-02, 18:03
The term for this used to be "thin client", and yes it's not fair to look at the 770 as anything but a networked device. But, as a practical matter, it's too hard to use my 770 this way, and especially in a VPN connection w/ a windows pc connected to my wifi router. It can't really do this at present for a wide range of applications.
And before thin client the term used to be X terminal, except that unlike the thin client which used proprietary protocols to connect and DIDN'T have an X server, the X terminal used open, universal protocols and DID have an X server. The thin client was a step backward, and a deliberate one at that, intended to lock out X, its benefits and its users.
Back in '95 when SONY introduced the first Playstation the games were not very impressive at first. They got better, though, as the game software makers learned what to do with the console. In 2000 when SONY introduced the PS/2 it was the same scenario - the games didn't at first take advantage of the new hardware, really, but the game software makers gradually figured out how to take advantage of it. It always happens like this. The 770 is about 6 months old and the software to exploit it is coming along from many directions at what I think is a respectable rate. The fact that it's free software (i.e., GPL) is fortifying the development of software to exploit the 770, though. It's still early.
Why doesn't Micro$oft easy our pain and provide X for us all, like Apple does, like Linux, BSD & UNIX do? Well, they deliberately won't. And they deliberately made sure that you can't get X on a Windows thin client, either. You can achieve X on a PC with Cygwin or some proprietary implementation of X or you could convince Bill Gates to put X on Windows so that a Windows PC could try to serve up client applications to a world of remote X users. Windows operating systems aren't designed to do this, though, so X on Windows is basically a hack - always has been, always will be.
Do you want your application to support many remote users in a collaborative software network? Don't write your application for any Windows OS, write it for X, and none of those remote users will ever have to install your app, worry about the storage it requires, or worry about whether the serious number crunching will ever affect their 770's because they are remote display users and not PC users.
Milhouse
2006-05-02, 19:51
I guess that depends on the bank and/or the country. My own bank's net access to account management is rather plain HTML and works just fine in the 770's Opera over https...
The two UK online banking services I use are also HTML-only based and if at some point they required Java I'd change to another bank without thinking about it. I don't like Java apps at the best of times - I don't miss such support on the 770! :)
Internet banking software typically needs Java for its functionality and if internet is a killing application for N770, then Java (JVM) has to be available. The lack of Java is surprising for me, since N770 hardware (OMAP1710) is designed to support Java applications.
Conclusion: With UMPC you can control your account and transfer your money. With N770 you can’t (now?). I hope that developers will solve this problem quickly.
Maybe you should check out the competition? banking-wise, I mean... I've tried several (most) major banking services here in Finland, and none of them required more than https (and possibly javascript). The 770 works fine.
Frankly, while I understand your need to get this fixed as fast as possible, I consider your solution a half-assed one -- Objectively this is not a maemo/770 problem, as internet banking is entirely possible through web. The banks are the ones who need to get their act together... Ask around, I find it hard to believe that no banks in your area support web-banking. If you find one, let your current bank know you're thinking of changing banks.
I'm not saying client-side Java on a device like this is an entirely stupid idea, I am saying that this is not a good reason for including it.
especially the RS-MMC that is rare, provides little storage and is expensiveAt $28 for 1GB, I don't think we should be calling RS-MMC expensive. And maybe you can't find it in Staples, but I wouldn't call it rare. And come on, 1 GB is big, even if some other memory chip formats have bigger cards.
Remember too that by using memory they were familiar with from phones, the Nokia engineers were able to come out with the 770 sooner and cheaper than the UMPC efforts.
These posts are...bemusing. You really cannot compare anything unless you look at price points. I have spent quite amount of time researching the 770 simply because it fit within the vicinity of my "price point". Two weeks ago I returned the very disappointing Palm T|X. Please know that I have been a happy Tungsten C owner for the last four years (yes, I was one of the first to have one). Recently, I have had occasion to do a great amount of air travel and lugging my PowerBook on every trip has turned into a labor that I am anxious to escape. The TC was simply useless for email and browsing because of it's small screen. The PB is great for everything except usage on a plane--unless you are in FC. If I flew FC all of the time, it would not be an issue. The TC is great for video and documents, but very, very tiring on the eyes.
So, I need Internet access on the road (Wi-Fi/Modem) and document and video access (at useful size) on the plane. The 770 seemed like a good choice--I will know soon.
The other, important issue, was Mac compatibility. I am hoping that since the 770 is Unix-based that it will be very Mac friendly. Again, I will know soon and am hoping the limitations (memory & processor speed) will not be an impediment to my goals.
At $28 for 1GB, I don't think we should be calling RS-MMC expensive. And maybe you can't find it in Staples, but I wouldn't call it rare. And come on, 1 GB is big, even if some other memory chip formats have bigger cards.
I just compressed a three hour movie to 700 MB. 1GB is a good size for taking one or two full-length movies on a trip.
These posts are...bemusing. You really cannot compare anything unless you look at price points.
Sorry, I disagree. If I need access to Wells Fargo (http://www.wellsfargo.com) , what does saving $500 buying a 770 vs a UMPC mean to me? Nothing.
If it doesn't do what I want, it's a waste. It's as easy as that.
Please don't think I'm trashing the 770 - I'm not. But for someone like me, the UMPC makes a lot of sense.
Part of my job involves supporting an application that runs under windows (as well as HP/UX, AIX, Solaris, and RH/AS). For the most part, the 770 allows me to sit in a dive bar and answer e-mail and do my job with a cigarette in one hand and a microbew beer in the other, connected by my bluetooth EDGE phone while I type on a bluetooth keyboard... and that is amazing. And yes, I do have three hands.
But sometimes I need to run a windows application - how will buying the 770 help someone in that situation? Why is the UMPC so bad?
Price is important, but you need to look at need first... no matter how cheap it is, if it doesn't do what you need, it's not money saved.
Notice I said need, not want. That's a whole other issue.
The cynical might even say the UMPC will do more on the day of release than the 770 can do a year later... (but again, what do you really need?)
Just trying to inject a bit of reality.
Brad.
Sorry, I disagree. If I need access to Wells Fargo (http://www.wellsfargo.com) , what does saving $500 buying a 770 vs a UMPC mean to me? Nothing.
If it doesn't do what I want, it's a waste. It's as easy as that.
Please don't think I'm trashing the 770 - I'm not. But for someone like me, the UMPC makes a lot of sense.
Part of my job involves supporting an application that runs under windows (as well as HP/UX, AIX, Solaris, and RH/AS). For the most part, the 770 allows me to sit in a dive bar and answer e-mail and do my job with a cigarette in one hand and a microbew beer in the other, connected by my bluetooth EDGE phone while I type on a bluetooth keyboard... and that is amazing. And yes, I do have three hands.
But sometimes I need to run a windows application - how will buying the 770 help someone in that situation? Why is the UMPC so bad?
Price is important, but you need to look at need first... no matter how cheap it is, if it doesn't do what you need, it's not money saved.
Notice I said need, not want. That's a whole other issue.
The cynical might even say the UMPC will do more on the day of release than the 770 can do a year later... (but again, what do you really need?)
Just trying to inject a bit of reality.
Brad.I think you missed what Odin was saying. You are trying to compare the 770 to a UMPC, which is an unfair comparison. Yes functionality and interoperability are important factors, and a 770 might not be right for you because of your needs. But it is unrealistic to expect a $300 device to have the same functionality as a $800 device.the 770 was never intended as a replacement for shrunk down windows PCs.
If it doesn't do what I want, it's a waste. It's as easy as that.
Please don't think I'm trashing the 770 - I'm not. But for someone like me, the UMPC makes a lot of sense.
Part of my job involves supporting an application that runs under windows (as well as HP/UX, AIX, Solaris, and RH/AS). For the most part, the 770 allows me to sit in a dive bar and answer e-mail and do my job with a cigarette in one hand and a microbew beer in the other, connected by my bluetooth EDGE phone while I type on a bluetooth keyboard... and that is amazing. And yes, I do have three hands.
But sometimes I need to run a windows application - how will buying the 770 help someone in that situation? Why is the UMPC so bad?
I've just been given a UMPC (a Samsung Q-somethingorother) to roadtest for my wife's company. I also have a 770.
The UMPC is "so bad" because it sucks in /so/ many different ways:
The battery life is AWFUL.
The software is not sufficiently optimised for the touchscreen input method or the small screen size that it has.
The virtual keyboard sucks totally, and doesn't appear nicely when it's needed (to get text-entry on a fullscreen app, you have to duck out of full screen, activate the vkeyb, enter the text and go back in to fullscreen - you can't have the vkeyb active with fullscreen IE, at the very least)
The application integration sucks. Adobe reader can go full screen, but you can't easily get out again.
I stopped at this point. I'm sure there are workarounds for some of these issue, but they really weren't obvious to me - a relatively experienced sysadmin. I'm equally sure that there are more problems that more extended use would expose (I stopped after kicking it around for a week).
Price is important, but you need to look at need first... no matter how cheap it is, if it doesn't do what you need, it's not money saved.
Notice I said need, not want. That's a whole other issue.
The cynical might even say the UMPC will do more on the day of release than the 770 can do a year later... (but again, what do you really need?)I very, very much doubt that. Having used a UMPC, I'm amazed that it even got out of the lab. It SUCKS. It really does.
To anyone considering getting a UMPC - try before you buy. PLEASE.
Jaycee
I've just been given a UMPC (a Samsung Q-somethingorother) to roadtest for my wife's company. I also have a 770.
The UMPC is "so bad" because it sucks in /so/ many different ways:
...snip...
The virtual keyboard sucks totally, and doesn't appear nicely when it's needed
...snip...
To anyone considering getting a UMPC - try before you buy. PLEASE.
Jaycee
One of the "little things" that I really like about the 770 is how the keyboard appears "nicely when it's needed". I took a big chance with the 770 and bought mine from Nokia direct having never had a chance to play with one. I really, really enjoy this machine and do not regret a moment since the purchase.
Origami UMPCs are a disaster
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=32339
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