Introducing Tablet Scene [Archive] - maemo.org

Reggie

2008-08-05, 15:22

Internet Tablet Talk gets about 700 new members per month. Out of those 700 new members, only a small percentage actually post a question or join the discussion in the forums. We think that majority of the new members would search the forums for answers but then end up reading replies that are too technical that make them uncomfortable to post a follow-up question since they don't know how to compose their replies. Thus, we are launching Tablet Scene. What is Tablet Scene? Tablet Scene is a new site for those who are really new to the Nokia Internet Tablet and the Maemo world. Tablet Scene aims to post guides and tips on how to use the Internet Tablet, as well as discuss and answer Internet Tablet topics and questions as non-technical as possible. Tablet Scene is replacing Internet Tablet Talk's 'Tablet 101.' Who will be running Tablet Scene? Krisse of Internet Tablet School is joining Roger and me to run Tablet Scene. Krisse has done a marvelous job at Internet Tablet School so, a lot of the first articles in Tablet Scene will actually be pointing to articles at Internet Tablet School. It is a privilege that we will get to work with Krisse (who is also a contributor at All About Symbian and All About N-Gage). We are also expecting that seasoned members from Internet Tablet Talk and folks from maemo.org would help contribute and provide non-technical guides and answers to new tablet users in the forums. If you want to help the site and become a regular contributing writer, let us know! How is it related to Internet Tablet Talk? Internet Tablet Talk and Tablet Scene are sister sites -- the two sites actually share the same membership database! This means post counts are shared, avatars are shared, signatures are shared, and even private messages are shared. The only thing you need to do is login separately (yup, with the same password), and you can visit, search, post between sites freely. We hope to see some of you at Tablet Scene! Note that it is still work-in-progress so as always, comments and suggestions are always welcome. Oh, our next project is the software site. We already have plans on how it will work but we hope to polish the details with the maemo.org folks during Maemo Summit 2008 in September.Read the full article. (http://www.internettablettalk.com/2008/08/05/introducing-tablet-scene/)

andrewfblack

2008-08-05, 15:25

Sounds cool I'm always happy to help people out with non technical answers.

Khertan

2008-08-05, 15:29

Hum ... could be a bad idea to divide a community ...

Reggie

2008-08-05, 15:34

Hum ... could be a bad idea to divide a community ...

It's not really dividing. A lot of collaboration will be happening, and plus, the membership database is the same. Think of it as another set of forums in a different page.

amigokin

2008-08-05, 15:34

Don't get me wrong, but this idea sounds redundant to me.

Two sites? Two forums? I don't get it. I think that a better organized ITT is the solution for the newbies issues, but who knows...

Just my two cents.

Reggie

2008-08-05, 15:36

Again, think of it as another set of forums in a different page. It's using the same member database.

andrewfblack

2008-08-05, 15:41

qwerty12

2008-08-05, 16:01

I won't deny I agreed with Khertan & amigokin but after reading andrewfblack's latest post, I can't deny that he has a point. I also can't deny that I'm one of the people that points others to the search button...

But really, was Tablet Scene the best name? To me, scene = warez :/ .I was expecting cracks for the Map application and leaked dsme source code :p

starchaser

2008-08-05, 16:43

I'm hoping this doesn't split the community, but instead strengthens it.
Those who enjoy helping the less knowledgable, such as myself, will hopefully spend time on Tablet Scene.
Those who don't have as much patience will at least be able to avoid pointing out the search button as frequently.

Tablet Scene sounds like a great extension of ITT and I look forward to visiting the new forums.

gatonero

2008-08-05, 16:54

Benson

2008-08-05, 17:02

andrewfblack

2008-08-05, 17:03

I'm one of the "relative" new members. Until today I didn't post one message, but I used the search button a lot of times with varying success. Example: To get informations how to install kde, plenty threads with several solutions. Which is to prefer? Informations, which repository setting to use with diablo, try it by Yourself, horrible.

So I looked into the wiki and I edited there some articles (little content, but links to forum postings regarding kde). All in all the wiki is in a poor condition. Wouldn't it be nice, if there would be a well supported wiki?

Another forum, another search button, another never ending postings?

First off congrats on your first post. It was a good one I agree that the wiki is a great tool but alot of people don't use it, some because they don't know how, others because they want everything to go to maemo.org wiki which is also in great need of work. I try to add things when I have times but really it takes alot of people to keep a wiki upto date.

Linear2202

2008-08-05, 17:23

I like the idea to a degree. I'd spend time there. Often I see enormous threads with tones of technical information that is really overwhelming to read through.

krisse

2008-08-05, 17:24

Not only do I think its a good idea to help new people but I almost left ITT the first time I was told to just go search and find the answer my self. This is something the community has needed for a long time. I personally think anyone who really doesn't want to help new people should just stay away from that site. Just my idea.

Thanks for that, you've put it really well. Perhaps one of the rules on Tablet Scene ought to be a ban on "why don't you use search?" posts... ;-)

But really, was Tablet Scene the best name? To me, scene = warez

Reggie and I went through a LOT of possible names, but they were all either taken or difficult to spell or difficult to pronounce or otherwise unsuitable for a general audience. :rolleyes:

We thought this name was simple, friendly, short, easy to spell, and implied a sense of community.

It may change if the maemo platform changes, for example if it becomes more than just tablets, but for the moment this is the best we could come up with... :-)

So I looked into the wiki and I edited there some articles (little content, but links to forum postings regarding kde). All in all the wiki is in a poor condition. Wouldn't it be nice, if there would be a well supported wiki?

Some ITT forum members (for example GeneralAntilles and others) have put a lot of work into getting the wiki in a better condition, and there is a lot of good info on there. IMHO its problem though is that it doesn't have a target audience, some of the articles are aimed at new users while others require a lot of technical knowledge. Perhaps it ought to be split into two sections like ITT and Tablet Scene?

fatalsaint

2008-08-05, 17:35

gatonero

2008-08-05, 17:36

Some ITT forum members (for example GeneralAntilles and others) have put a lot of work into getting the wiki in a better condition, and there is a lot of good info on there. IMHO its problem though is that it doesn't have a target audience, some of the articles are aimed at new users while others require a lot of technical knowledge. Perhaps it ought to be split into two sections like ITT and Tablet Scene?

A well supportes wiki on Tablet Scene would be great :)

Benson

2008-08-05, 17:39

I'll stay away... I like helping newbies... but I don't like repeating myself 300 times..If i've answered the same question dozens of times already (or seen it answered dozens of times) I'd just ignore the post if I am not allowed to say "Use Search".. Which may cause another problem.. If someone posts on your Tablet Scene and all the so-called 'experts' answering people are tired of answering that question they may just not answer.. meaning the newbies; instead of getting of mean "search it" answer; will get no answer.. and still feel bummed and quit.
Like the Ubuntu fora?

/me ducks.

Edit: Let me add: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Unfortunately, it's hard to recommend this to the people who need it without being a "jerk", and if I'm going to be a "jerk", I may as well be a jerk, and not point them at useful resources. But everyone ought to read it and think about it, anyway, and it would be nice to have a reading comprehension test on it as part of the registration process ;).

harpgliss

2008-08-05, 17:39

Hi,

I am one of those new members also.

Working on buying a N800 and have been looking around here to get some insight as to what I should expect.

Now, instead of looking for information on one site, the administration is asking us to frequent two sites for the information now.

Guess I am just a little confused there, and yes I have read the reasons for this move.

I know Reggie from Cliesource IE 1src and have a lot of respect there for him but this move is bewildering to me.

Are there enough members here to support two sites?

Have not seen the kind of traffic here when I visit to support this idea.

For me, being a newbie to the internet Tablet, you are maing things more difficult for me big time.

Thank you.

David

sachin007

2008-08-05, 18:01

The search button in either forum should give results from both sites. And think having a different sub department on ITT for the newbies is a better idea. I like helping and also i like the latest hacks, it would be double the work to do both.

andrewfblack

2008-08-05, 18:04

I'll stay away... I like helping newbies... but I don't like repeating myself 300 times..If i've answered the same question dozens of times already (or seen it answered dozens of times) I'd just ignore the post if I am not allowed to say "Use Search".. Which may cause another problem.. If someone posts on your Tablet Scene and all the so-called 'experts' answering people are tired of answering that question they may just not answer.. meaning the newbies; instead of getting of mean "search it" answer; will get no answer.. and still feel bummed and quit.

Good luck with it though.. if it provides help to a couple people should be worth it..

I don't think you have to type the whole answer out but if you what it is you can search it for someone and give them the link to the first post that answered it. The only problem with that is some anwsers get diluted but other stuff so I find its best to just tell them the anwser again.

Faz

2008-08-05, 18:06

I think this is a great idea! As long as it's policed reasonably well, it should certainly speed up the initial learning curve.

Some form of cross-referencing between forums would be handy, e.g. Simple method to link from TS to ITT threads maybe?

Sounds like the new site could be compared to a public company forum: No technical jargon and language intended for the wider audience.

Two separate Wiki's sounds like a good idea too.

With regards to the risk of splitting the user base, I think the potential gains out way the risk. Worst case scenario, the majority migrate to the new one, the original one remains and becomes a forum for Uber Tableteers! :D

fatalsaint

2008-08-05, 18:08

I don't think you have to type the whole answer out but if you what it is you can search it for someone and give them the link to the first post that answered it. The only problem with that is some anwsers get diluted but other stuff so I find its best to just tell them the anwser again.

Yes but if you are telling the "answerer" to "search" to help the "newbie" that is completely backwards.

I'm with Benson.. If the question looks thought out and the asker presents themself in such a way that it appears they did do some work on their own to find it out.. I'll lay it out for them.. give them exact search words with a link directly to the article.

If they just pop up and post a question on something that was just answered and is still 2 threads beneath their own.... No. Not worth my time and energy helping people that don't want to help themself...

The old addage:
Catch a man a fish - feed him for a day..
teach a man to fish - feed him for life.

Seriously.. the Search button is a newbies best friend.

sachin007

2008-08-05, 18:09

I think we should have a single site with new posts updated on the front page of both itt and its. and do away with logging in. it should be an unwritten rule that only peple whowant to help reply in the its section.

brontide

2008-08-05, 18:09

Sink or swim mentality has made the community all it is today ( good and bad ). Tablet Scene will, in theory, allow us to experiment with a currently under served portion of the community and possibly expand the community to many more users.

andrewfblack

2008-08-05, 18:14

Yes but if you are telling the "answerer" to "search" to help the "newbie" that is completely backwards.

I'm with Benson.. If the question looks thought out and the asker presents themself in such a way that it appears they did do some work on their own to find it out.. I'll lay it out for them.. give them exact search words with a link directly to the article.

If they just pop up and post a question on something that was just answered and is still 2 threads beneath their own.... No. Not worth my time and energy helping people that don't want to help themself...

The old addage:
Catch a man a fish - feed him for a day..
teach a man to fish - feed him for life.

Seriously.. the Search button is a newbies best friend.

But if the man has no idea what a fish is he doesn't know what he wants to eat.

Thanks about that one.

Also Barking at someone to go search for an answer is not teaching him to fish. Its telling him to go fishing.

fatalsaint

2008-08-05, 18:16

But if the man has no idea what a fish is he doesn't know what he wants to eat.

Thanks about that one.

Point taken.. however if I see someone ask a question about trout... and I say "search for fish" ... I shouldn't be looked at as a rude, callous jerk either :P.

Faz

2008-08-05, 18:19

The only problem with that is some answers get diluted but other stuff so I find its best to just tell them the answer again.

Well put.

This is less of an issue when the OP edits the original post accordingly. The thread them becomes almost like a Wiki in it's own right.

I'm sure I've seen one or two threads where the Admins have "fixed" this where the OP isn't in a position to do this themselves.

Cptnodegard

2008-08-05, 18:34

I think its a good idea. Whenever someone asks for something in here, the most likely outcome is an answer that involves writing a novel in xterm, reflashing with a grapefruit, installing 14 different linux distros, shaking the tablet for 20 minutes and finally compile some kernel found on NASAs top security server which of course anyone can hack into.
Although thats a bit of an exaggeration, thats the way a lot of explenations seem like for people who are new to all of this. Its easy for people that know stuff to forget how it was when they didnt know it and so how to explain it properly. Personally ive never used linux outside the n800 and a lot of stuff on ITT (like mouse polling, screen rotate) ive stayed faaaar away from because i dont get half of the **** in the "how to"s.

jschon

2008-08-05, 19:08

I appreciate the extra effort to help someone like me who gets lost in the technical jargon.

starchaser

2008-08-05, 19:17

The search button in either forum should give results from both sites....

I''m not sure if that's a comment on how it will work or a suggestion.
If it could be made to work that way, it would make things a lot easier and I'd think both sites would be more usefull.

harpgliss

2008-08-05, 19:20

Hi,

I would think, the same members here, who have the answers, will answer the questions there and in the same manner.

Not really seeing a change unless you are telling members they have to provide answers in a certain way on the new site or do not help.

Maybe a pessimistic way of seeing things but I happen to se it as being realistic.

I am not a newbie to forums and tech in any way and this is the way things go.

Trying to reinvent the wheel when you are using the same information and resources just gets you another wheel.

In the end, it may be helpful but is it necessary?

David

prk60091

2008-08-05, 19:38

although my age and the number of posts qualify me a "senior member" i am by no means the most knowledgeable person in the forum. i have asked newbie questions and self-created problems and have at times from some folk been given - if you had searched blah blah blah..... well because i am stubborn (a by-product of being old) i have found the answer and learned from it.... that is me... on the other hand i can see many people (like my wife ) who actually bought an ipod touch rather than deal w/alot of what she considers snarkiness from what she saw in the forums.. ymmv....this is not a rant but i think this forum is not really designed for a casual end user but rather a serious hobbyist.

if the n8x0 series and beyond is to be a mass-market consumer item rather than a specialty item then there has to be a mass market type of forum... this forum does not fit that bill.

briand

2008-08-05, 19:45

on the other hand i can see many people (like my wife ) who actually bought an ipod touch rather than deal w/alot of what she considers snarkiness from what she saw in the forums.. ymmv....this is not a rant but i think this forum is not really designed for a casual end user but rather a serious hobbyist.

When your wife wants to jailbreak that ipod touch, and start doing the sorts of things that are (or more easily can be) more commonplace on the Nokia Tablets, she may find herself facing an even more openly hostile and snarky bunch there than what she perceives of us, here... ;)

Reggie

2008-08-05, 19:58

I would think, the same members here, who have the answers, will answer the questions there and in the same manner.

Not really seeing a change unless you are telling members they have to provide answers in a certain way on the new site or do not help.

Maybe a pessimistic way of seeing things but I happen to se it as being realistic.

I am not a newbie to forums and tech in any way and this is the way things go.

Trying to reinvent the wheel when you are using the same information and resources just gets you another wheel.

In the end, it may be helpful but is it necessary?

David, nice to see you here at itT.

I see your point. The objective here is not really to reinvent. It's not even to repeat information. If some really new user decides to ask about how to convert a video to internet tablet format, I would probably give him/her a list of different software to try, and then provide links to specific Internet Tablet Talk video converter threads. Right now, a similar post here in itT might not receive the same helpful response.

Eventually, we hope that as new users learn and know more about the ins and outs of Maemo devices, they would graduate from Tablet Scene to Internet Tablet Talk.

sjgadsby

2008-08-05, 20:04

I think its a good idea. Whenever someone asks for something in here, the most likely outcome is an answer that involves writing a novel in xterm...
<snip>
...a lot of stuff on ITT (like mouse polling, screen rotate) ive stayed faaaar away from because i dont get half of the **** in the "how to"s.

How will a separate, more newbie-friendly forum help with that though?

Let's say I've just purchased my first tablet: a shiny, new N810. I've seen a video on YouTube demonstrating portrait web browsing, RSS reading, etc. on a tablet just like mine, and I want in on that fun. I find a web site with great, newbie-friendly fora for tablet questions, and I start a new thread asking how I can do what I've seen on YouTube.

Now, as you've written, basic, step-by-step directions to accomplish this task have already been posted here on Internet Tablet Talk many times. However, as you've also written, they're no good, as they require opening X Terminal. So, should the newbie helpers on the new site post the step-by-steps there anyway (effectively replicating Internet Tablet Talk), or should they tell the newbie to forget about screen rotation, it's just too difficult?

allnameswereout

2008-08-05, 20:23

I, for one, applaud the initiative!

It is also possible to merge data back on forth.

Yes but if you are telling the "answerer" to "search" to help the "newbie" that is completely backwards.

I'm with Benson.. If the question looks thought out and the asker presents themself in such a way that it appears they did do some work on their own to find it out.. I'll lay it out for them.. give them exact search words with a link directly to the article.

If they just pop up and post a question on something that was just answered and is still 2 threads beneath their own.... No. Not worth my time and energy helping people that don't want to help themself...

The old addage:
Catch a man a fish - feed him for a day..
teach a man to fish - feed him for life.

Seriously.. the Search button is a newbies best friend.

Some people just want the device to work, and they have some small questions. If other users would like to help them out, there is no issue of UTFS.

Searching is a whole art by itself.

Teach a man to fish who just can't get the hand of it, and he has a long beard & wasted a lot of time to get at a solid level whereas the man is a terrific shepherd.

In our society, specializing in a tool of the trade is mandatory.

Every person has their positive and negative traits.

If you want the NIT to be user friendly you need to lower the barrier for people who are less technically inclined. One thing is for sure: Nokia wants this. And given the clones arrising there is a bit pressure to get the ball rolling. Even if your relate this still on intelligence (I suggest one doesn't) these people aren't idiots, the users here aren't uber. Thinking in such lines is incredibly arrogant, and I see several people in this thread arguing in such manner. The irony is that this alone justifies this change! :D

sondjata

2008-08-05, 20:28

Faz

2008-08-05, 20:44

How will a separate, more newbie-friendly forum help with that though?

Let's say I've just purchased my first tablet: a shiny, new N810. I've seen a video on YouTube demonstrating portrait web browsing, RSS reading, etc. on a tablet just like mine, and I want in on that fun. I find a web site with great, newbie-friendly fora for tablet questions, and I start a new thread asking how I can do what I've seen on YouTube.

Now, as you've written, basic, step-by-step directions to accomplish this task have already been posted here on Internet Tablet Talk many times. However, as you've also written, they're no good, as they require opening X Terminal. So, should the newbie helpers on the new site post the step-by-steps there anyway (effectively replicating Internet Tablet Talk), or should they tell the newbie to forget about screen rotation, it's just too difficult?

I see what you mean, but I think part of the goal of the new site is to keep it concise and clear, not only for less technically minded people, but even those techies new to the Tablet that haven't got the time or inclination to read through a long (albeit an educational & comprehensive) 30 page thread. Also, nothing wrong with referencing existing threads remember.

I expect a lot of us would initially need to think twice before submitting a response, to consider the target audience and maybe crop / amend as required.

Maybe a key will help :D

itT = Uber [wannabe] Tableteers
TS = Everyone welcome, don't be scared, no geek talk! :)

Well, at least that's how I see it [going].

Sounds pretty good to me! :)

allnameswereout

2008-08-05, 20:51

For sure, Faz. BTW, many communities have 'newbie friendly' platforms. Like kernelnewbies.org is for Linux kernel development. In the longer term it has the potention to get more people into Linux kernel development (even if its a small patch). You can't have people to go to university right away; first elementary school & college. There is a reason these schools are all in different buildings & locations; they specialize for different audiences.

iamthewalrus

2008-08-05, 21:12

I agree that the current situation isn't very newbie friendly. Part of it is caused the fragmentation and inconsistencies of the various websites, which is what Quim is working on.

Another factor is the neglection of the ITT Wiki. But you won't solve this by creating yet another one. The main problem is how to keep the content up to date and well organized. And I would rather have one well kept wiki with some kind of difficulty rating for how-tos. Maybe it's time for better wiki software so it's easier (and more fun) to maintain/tag/organize/search for content?

I think the idea of article style how tos is great. Newbies won't search for something in the wiki if they don't know that you can do something in the first place. How about add some video tutorials?

I don't agree there is much unfriendlyness to newbie generally here. Compared to other forums I think it's actually quite civilized and friendly. And asking people to search and ask proper questions is just basic forum etiquette. The problem as I see it is that newbies wll read about things like running Debian or cloning to SD without realizing that those things are actually advanced hacks.

GeneralAntilles

2008-08-05, 22:55

A well supportes wiki on Tablet Scene would be great :)

Please no. Another unmanaged, uncared for wiki is exactly what we don't need.

The maemo.org wiki will be whatever people make it. Personally, I've been trying to tailor articles to present enough information for pretty much anybody to get through the guides while not overwhelming people with lots of excessively detailed steps (too much detail can overwhelm newbies just as quickly as not enough).

I think the article's subject has a lot to do with the ease of the how-to. Dual-booting guides are necessarily harder because the subject is a difficult one. Sure, you could give a copy-paste guide, but what happens when they mess up and get quickly over their heads.

Anyway, striking a balance somewhere between drooling idiot and fairly competent user is something I've been working on with w.m.o with varying success.

I invite anybody interested in helping out to lend a hand. Dismissing it to start something else is wonderful and all, but with a little help we can make it great.

Personally, I'd've rather have seen the Tablet School name leveraged. It's already known and respected, bringing it in under itT proper seems like a reasonable plan, but I suppose you guys have discussed it.

I do fear a Ubuntu forums ending with lots of unanswered threads, though, and I definitely wont be contributing there myself.

Appologies for the ramble, I'm following my family around a Barnes & Nobles in downtown SF. . . .

Reggie

2008-08-05, 23:10

I agree that the wiki.maemo.org should be the wiki for everything IT and Maemo related. itT's wiki, while it contains a lot of good info and has improved a lot (thanks GA), hopefully would get moved to maemo.org in the future.

geneven

2008-08-05, 23:20

One Wiki to bind them all and in the darkness find them. I like that idea, rather than multiple Wikis.

Thru creative nagging, we have achieved discipline here. So if one searches for information, one might well run into the essential thread -- one with more than a hundred messages, replete with false trails and irrelevancies. That's a lot better than having more threads, right?

A good wiki is the answer. And if another site is needed, it seems to me that it already exists -- the Tablet School site.

qole

2008-08-06, 00:16

krisse

2008-08-06, 00:28

Can I just say to people who think Tablet Scene is a bad idea: ignore it, pretend it's not there. If you don't like it, don't take part. ITT will carry on just as before.

As Reggie says, the idea is to give new and casual users a relaxed place to hang out, and if they want to get a bit more deeply involved in the technology they can easily "graduate" to ITT using the same forum account. If they don't want to get involved in the technology, then ITT isn't the place for them anyway.

I don't agree there is much unfriendlyness to newbie generally here. Compared to other forums I think it's actually quite civilized and friendly.

It's not direct unfriendliness that's the problem, but people being put off by the heavy technogibberish they see as topic titles in most of the forums.

Look at the General forum for instance, it currently has topics like "Why there is lack of interest Highspeed enabled kernel for the Nokia n800 and n810?", what font is pretty in xterm?, How to partition memory card (Ext2/Fat)?, Lack of Ogg Support etc. These phrases are meaningless to most people, they don't make any sense at all.

If you go to a forum and you can't understand a word of it, you probably won't post or come back at all, because you won't feel it's for you.

And asking people to search and ask proper questions is just basic forum etiquette.

There are many ways of doing that, some of them politer than others.

Too often the replies to brand new members say absolutely nothing but "why don't you use the search?" That kind of reply isn't going to make people feel welcome.

For example a reply like this gets across exactly the same information but in a more friendly manner:

"Welcome to the forums! I can't help you with that question myself, but I think there was someone who gave a REALLY good answer to that a while ago. Maybe you could try the search link at the top of the page if you want to look for it?"

The problem as I see it is that newbies wll read about things like running Debian or cloning to SD without realizing that those things are actually advanced hacks.

The Tablet Scene site is mainly meant for people who buy an internet tablet to use the built-in features, not people who want to do hacks.

The tablets going mainstream means people buying them and using them for the purposes suggested on the box, none of which involve messing around with OSes or application installations.

Personally, I'd've rather have seen the Tablet School name leveraged. It's already known and respected, bringing it in under itT proper seems like a reasonable plan, but I suppose you guys have discussed it.

We did discuss it, but came to the conclusion that it might be best to keep the sites separate for the moment. In the future though, who knows...

I'll be linking to Tablet Scene heavily from ITS in the meantime.

A good wiki is the answer. And if another site is needed, it seems to me that it already exists -- the Tablet School site.

Well, my approach with the Internet Tablet School has taken a totally different route to Wiki, I've deliberately kept a tight rein on what goes in it and how detailed it can be. I received some offers of help (and got an excellent guest tutorial from Thoughtfix) but I generally tried to keep the site in one style with one author.

That's why I mentioned target audiences earlier, I knew from the outset that everything on the ITS would be written for one kind of user. I also had a specific list of topics written down that I worked through until I'd covered all of the features that an average user might want to know about.

If I'd had to cover many kinds of user the ITS site might have become a lot messier and harder to navigate, and the list of topics to cover would have become endless.

Thesandlord

2008-08-06, 01:51

The reason ITT is too unfriendly to new users is because the default theme looks like xterm... Seriously, why is the "hacker" forum black, and the "Noob" forum white. Just a little stereotypical, eh?

I have to disagree with some people. Most of the guys here are very helpful, and they give really good step-by-step instructions. Its not a mountain of xterm commands or kernel recompiling, etc.

So, what TS is, in my understanding, is a forum for someone who just wants to use the tablets as advertised. I think its a good idea to split the different types of questions. For example "How do I change my theme" should go into TS, while "How do I change my window manager" should go into ITT. Right?

Video Tutorials are good - @iamthewalrus

Big problem with this is: how can we decide which forum to post to? For example, is bluetooth PAN and DUN questions supposed to go to ITT or TS. Its a questions many people ask, so it is mainstream, but its still a hack. This would really confuse most people (including me).

prk60091

2008-08-06, 02:13

Big problem with this is: how can we decide which forum to post to? For example, is bluetooth PAN and DUN questions supposed to go to ITT or TS. Its a questions many people ask, so it is mainstream, but its still a hack. This would really confuse most people (including me).

my bet that anyone posting to this thread probably has enough experience etc to keep any post in iit whereas the newbie should be directed to tabletscene and if he/she graduates to "geek" move on over here- the more the merrier

look- most people want their toys to just work- the refrigerator theory of computing...you plug it in and it works period. that does not describe me or most of the people posting in this thread- but we are in the minority. that is why apple is making as much money as it is now..it just works and windows dont.

if tabletscene helps the majority get their tablets to "just work" then i for 1 welcome it- it means for me continued new nokia toys in the future :) and continued support

andreww

2008-08-06, 02:34

Just my opinion: If someone is willing to put in the effort to start a new website/forum aiming at the newbie crowd, it's definitely worth a shot. There's no reason not to try out new ideas. If it doesn't work, just make the domain resolve to internettablettalk and call it an interesting experiment :)

Other weird random comments:
- If people are willing to devote time to answering new users, why not try to start an FAQ page on the wiki. Cool rule I use for services I work on: answer it in the FAQ and then send the link, rather than just sending an e-mail/posting/etc. I know it's easier to do for work purposes :)
- I think the wiki is awesome, esp. for a community effort. Why not try to reorganize the front page, create sections based on difficulty, or at least try to add green/red/yellow image tags to links from the wiki for HowTos to help users get started. Yeah, I'm all talk on this one... I'm glad to have contributed 1 article to the wiki ;-)
- For the new users, I don't think it is rude to provide the general outline of the problem, point to a link, and say "by the way, searching would really help out." Add a smilie if it looks mean.
- Occasional fix-it threads would be great for the community, similar to what the Nokia guys do with maemo.org. "Lets reorg the wiki home page..." "Newby-ize articles" etc

I don't really like forums, but it's the best way to encourage communication. I think leaving technical details in the wiki is the best way to make it easier for all levels of users to get the information they need though :)

brontide

2008-08-06, 04:24

I swear sometimes people can read my mind. Guess what I've been working on for the past few days.

http://www.rit.albany.edu/~ew2193/bookmarklets/

Sometime documentation is much easier done than said and screencasting is great for grabbing the attention of the users.

qole

2008-08-06, 04:45

That screencasting technique is a really cool way to demo a process.

Oh, and those chopsticks for children sure have some lucious colors.

debernardis

2008-08-06, 06:02

Thanks for that. I didn't know of vnc2swf. It seems an exceptional tool for NIT demos.
Would you mind posting a guide for using that, Brontide?

allnameswereout

2008-08-06, 07:24

I've been struggling over the whole "what's easiest for newbies?" question myself.

One of the things that this new site is meant to do is help people find newbie-related stuff, but I wonder if maybe just overhauling this site would accomplish the same thing...?

It seems that one solution would be to rigorously maintain a wiki article that is directly tied to a thread here on ITt (bi-directional links) which distills the wisdom of the thread into an article. But that is a lot of work, and if only one person is maintaining the article, it can be pretty overwhelming...

It would be nice to refine the "thanks" system to rate or classify or tag posts (perhaps a system like on Slashdot?) so you can skim a thread and only read the posts that others found helpful -- but not just a binary system, where it is either "thanked" or "not-thanked", but you can read a thread with your filter set to 3/5, so posts of moderate interest are also shown, not just super-interesting posts...

Off-topic posts and side discussions can be very interesting at the time they are posted, but they make wading through a 100-page thread overwhelming... Sometimes, when someone posts a very technical question to my "easy Debian" thread, I wish I could move the whole conversation somewhere else, or hide it from newbies, or something, thus leaving the original thread "cleaner".

Yes, it might be possible to use this forum and website for this purpose, but then the whole structure has to be changed, and mentality has to change as well. Do you see this happening? I don't.

The Dutch tech forum Gathering of Tweakers (GoT) deals with summarizing valuable information for newcomers in 3 ways:

1) Big threads get closed due to bitrot-related reasons.
2) The first post / topic starter is editted by A) the topic starter B) moderators (quality moderators, BTW).
3) On top is one sticky thread which contains all links to relevant data, howtos about the subject of the subforum. It is like a FAQ. It grows in time. People get credit where credit is due by a thank you and a link to their profile.

People who ask a question asked in the FAQ are directed to the FAQ (with deeplink to the correct entry (HTML)). Sometimes, people are rude in this regard. You know, the elitist attitude. A moderator then edits the post to state this is not done, while trying to keep the peace. Usually they have a short talk via e-mail. Being a moderator is easy. Being a good moderator isn't.

When the big thread is closed after say 100 pages, the new topic starter or moderator updates the first post to reflect some overal conclusions from the big thread. There are 3 problems with this:

1) The moderator has to remain objective.
2) The topic starter might be busy; this really costs some time and courage.
3) Either one of these persons might not be the right person for this task.

While a tech forum pur sang they clearly do their best to manage the huge amounts of data being shared, but you can recognize the situation isn't managable.

Also, really, do not underestimate, it is not a task everyone is able to do. You need to have the quality to invest a lot of time in this daunting task, to summarize information & weed through information, write correct English (in this case the main language), write coherent, remain objective (ability to detach from your personal views), and understand the subject in detail. In other words, someone who fits the position is likely a writer, helpdesker, or journalist. A wiki allows more people to learn this tool of the trade. I've contributed a lot to a wiki a lot before only to see it now bitrotten. Hurts... OTOH, all data was and is public domain. I have similar experiences with journalism and forum. I know I am quite able to fullfil the task, but I am not going to do this anymore for free. I'm doing this for fun.

Instead of doing the above system, one could merge data with a Wiki back and forth.

Personally, I believe Wiki usability would improve if there was a decentralized, GIT-like framework where users are able to clone and merge data easily. Or perhaps, a forum with wiki integration.

Videos and screenshots are very, very good ideas. Remember, most people are visual. For them, it is much more easier to see how something is done, than to read how it is done. While I have a UNIX background I still loved ITS a lot because it allowed me to change some things, and get some simple things working, without having to worry too much. Convenient. I knew I wouldn't blow up my device with those tutorials. Kudos to ITS folks!!

Because of the slow processor on the NIT I would prefer to use remote desktop to make my tutorials, maybe in SB with recordmydesktop. Is this easy to set up?

PS: I like the name Tablet School over the name Tablet Scene.

allnameswereout

2008-08-06, 07:50

The tag icon http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/images/dark_vb/misc/tag.png looks like a lock to me.

brontide

2008-08-06, 08:50

Thanks for that. I didn't know of vnc2swf. It seems an exceptional tool for NIT demos.
Would you mind posting a guide for using that, Brontide?

I'm going to have to since there are more pitfalls than working solutions out there. That being said it's really not that hard. Barring all of the screwups that I don't have to do not a 2.5 minute video would probably take someone 30 minutes to get right. Less if they weren't trying to make it nice.

krisse

2008-08-06, 10:49

When we talk about "newbies" I think a lot of us are talking at cross purposes.

By "newbies", some of us mean people who just want to use the tablets for simple things like browsing the web, while others take "newbies" to mean people who are new to the tablets and may go on to do complex things with them. Those are two totally separate things.

The Tablet Scene site is NOT meant for people new to the tablets who want to learn complex stuff. That's what ITT's newbie forum is for.

Tablet Scene is meant for "casual users", for people who simply don't care about booting from a memory card or changing OSes or anything like that. Tablet Scene is meant for people who use the tablets for their official purpose: surfing the web, checking e-mail, making internet calls etc all of which can be done with the built-in applications.

The contents of ITT is mostly to do with things beyond those built-in functions. ITT is mostly about adding new functions to the tablet, often very obscure functions. Simply filtering ITT won't make it more relevant to casual users, because they don't want most of the functions that ITT covers.

To put it another way: ITT is like a site for people who enjoy messing around with their car engines, while Tablet Scene is for people who just use a car to get them from A to B and don't want to touch the engine.

my bet that anyone posting to this thread probably has enough experience etc to keep any post in iit whereas the newbie should be directed to tabletscene and if he/she graduates to "geek" move on over here- the more the merrier

look- most people want their toys to just work- the refrigerator theory of computing...you plug it in and it works period. that does not describe me or most of the people posting in this thread- but we are in the minority. that is why apple is making as much money as it is now..it just works and windows dont.

if tabletscene helps the majority get their tablets to "just work" then i for 1 welcome it- it means for me continued new nokia toys in the future :) and continued support

Yes, this is exactly it.

Tablet Scene is for the kind of people who buy the Nokia tablets as Apple-style consumer devices, while ITT is for the kind of people who buy the Nokia tablets as pocket-sized computers. Both are buying the tablets, but they're buying them with significantly different intentions, and may require significantly different kinds of support.

Going by the history of portable devices, it's the consumer-oriented purchases that will make a device successful. The tablets need more casual users in order to get enough sales to justify their existence, it's not enough to only sell to people who know what a repository is.

Hopefully Tablet Scene will encourage more casual users to get a Nokia tablet, as it makes them realise you don't need to know anything about Linux in order to use the built-in functions. By encouraging more casual users to get a tablet, it will make the tablets more viable, which will benefit hardcore users as well.

I know some people on ITT don't like the idea of the tablets going mainstream (you should see some of the messages I got when I suggested using Canola as the main interface!) but they can stay away from Tablet Scene.

Videos and screenshots are very, very good ideas. Remember, most people are visual. For them, it is much more easier to see how something is done, than to read how it is done. While I have a UNIX background I still loved ITS a lot because it allowed me to change some things, and get some simple things working, without having to worry too much. Convenient. I knew I wouldn't blow up my device with those tutorials. Kudos to ITS folks!!

Another important point about videos is that they show something is actually possible, which makes people feel more confident about following the instructions.

dubwise

2008-08-06, 14:29

Tablet Scene is for the kind of people who buy the Nokia tablets as Apple-style consumer devices,

The problem is that the NIT line isn't ready for those people.
Nokia's roadmap doesn't project it to be until the next rev of the OS, right?

At this point, it's a development platform, not a consumer device.

I understand that consumers are buying it anyway. Nokia made it too darned pretty.
And I understand the desire to help those people, but you're fighting an uphill battle.

brontide

2008-08-06, 14:54

At this point, it's a development platform, not a consumer device.

A larger, more vibrant, community helps us all; even if Nokia has dropped the ball when it comes to support. I would agree that maybe some better tie-ins might be in order ( making the newbie form into a link to TS and have and "advanced" area that linked here is also good ).

In the end you can't create a sustainable community on only developers or only users and bigger is almost always better. Bigger means more leverage for new ideas, more potential contributors, and more feedback. If TS saves even one user from early abandonment then it's served it's goal.

harpgliss

2008-08-06, 16:32

Hi,

Me, I used to be a PalmOS user, now using a Dell Axim and moving to the N800.

As for what I plan or do not plan to do with it, who knows as I don't have it yet.

I like to have as much information on a subject and if it is in one place or site, great, if not, it makes it more difficult to determine my needs or wants because the information to help me, is scattered.

I am new here and, just like any other forum, there are cliques and people who help and those who do not, those who do help, are they likely to frequent both sites?

As I said, being new to the NIT and new to linux also, two strikes against me, I plan to try and get as much out of my experience with the NIT as possible.

I just worry that I, and others like me, will miss information because of it being spread amongst two sites instead of one.

I just worry this will not bring more people into the format as I would think this is a big motivation here.

Well, that's my three cents.

David

krisse

2008-08-06, 16:55

Harpgliss,

Scattering information is bad, but so is burying information.

On ITT at the moment, all the basic stuff that mainstream users would want to find out about is buried under thread upon thread of far more complex topics that most people simply don't understand.

The tablets have a reputation as being extremely difficult to use and only intended for hackers. That's just not fair, if you only want to use them as advertised they're actually very easy to use, but you wouldn't know that from looking at the technology-heavy topics on ITT.

I did the Internet Tablet School site (link in my signature) totally separately from the maemo Wiki so that casual users would have direct access to the tablet info they needed without having to wade through many pages of advanced topics they don't comprehend. I've had a lot of positive feedback about ITS, so I assume that's an approach people like.

The problem is that the NIT line isn't ready for those people.

I'm sorry but it most definitely IS ready for those people.

I know this from personal experience, I've seen technophobes who can't cope with PCs magically able to cope with tablets.

Did you read the story of how I got involved in the tablet world in the first place? Here's the link:

http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9674

If you use the tablet for the functions advertised by Nokia it is as easy to use as any mainstream desktop computer, either Windows or Mac or Ubuntu. In fact I'd say it's easier in many ways, as you can see in the story linked to above.

It's not easy to do all the hacking stuff, but it's not easy to do hacking stuff on any computer, and mainstream users don't want to do that kind of thing anyway.

Nokia's roadmap doesn't project it to be until the next rev of the OS, right?

Would you care to provide some kind of link to this roadmap?

Reggie and I e-mailed various people at Nokia about this topic before doing the Tablet Scene site, to ask what their plans were for getting the tablets further into the mainstream. They said they're most definitely trying to make the tablets mainstream products, and would soon be bringing out a new consumer-oriented site aimed at just the audience that Tablet Scene is aimed at.

At this point, it's a development platform, not a consumer device.

Try using a Nokia smartphone (which sell approx 60 million units a year, more than all other smartphones combined), then try using a Nokia tablet.

The tablet is by FAR the easier device to use, I mean by a long long way. It's definitely easy enough for ordinary consumers to use. There's a lot of room for improvement, but it's still well over the threshold for ordinary users.

I understand that consumers are buying it anyway. Nokia made it too darned pretty.
And I understand the desire to help those people, but you're fighting an uphill battle.

Why?

What built-in consumer-oriented function of the tablets is difficult to use?

Browser, skype, e-mail, all those kinds of things are as easy to use on the tablets as they are on any consumer computing device.

allnameswereout

2008-08-06, 17:32

Unfortunately, bigger doesn't mean better. There is no corelation between the two. Lets not assume bigger automagically means better. Its a trap. The signal to noise ratio matters.

There are tons of examples. You can have five developers doing nothing on XFree86, or a few (e.g. Keith Packard) hacking their *** off. You can have a wiki with only four main contributors and still achieve a lot. You can have a wiki with a lot of contributors not leading to much fruitful. Big communies/hierarchies (e.g. forums) can become very chaotic if there are not enough people who manage. Heck, if biggest meant best a certain corporation starting with the M of monopoly would have released the best products past years. Look at history. The biggest rulers like Napoleon have fallen even though they had huge territory. In Napoleon's case it was due to overconfidence/arrogance. Nevermind the other big cultures throughout earth's history. The dinosaurs, the Greeks, the Romans, and so on.

To put it vaguely: big things come and go. Things wither away as new things start. Thats an ecosystem, and you can find this back in a lot of aspects in life. Nature, for example. The role described in my previous post is a manager role. Linus Torvalds is a manager, too. At least, nowadays he is. He's hardly an engineer or developer anymore. He also stood up to develop GIT when it was necessary. A manager, or a leader, if you will.

Some managers who keep track of both forums and merge & compile data back and forth. The people who do this have to be comfortable on both forums, and comfortable doing the task. If it doesn't feel right to be on both or to fullfill this task; don't. After all, you're a volunteer.

The point? Developers are often bad UI designers, and bad managers as well. With only developers you won't get far. You need managers, leaders, shepherds, too.

The proposition consumer-ready or not consumer-ready is in itself a false one because it isn't a yes/no question; it is far more complex than that. Following is a rough take on it. You need users too. New people, like kids, are very honest in their experience. They won't take reasoning like 'it works for me' or 'it will be fixed in the next version' or 'I like it this way and if you don't, write a patch' for granted. They will be honest in their user experiences which is potentially a great source of feedback for developers. Also, they paid for the device, and feel it should work the way they want it to. They usually don't want all kind of addons, but what is there must work. So, the default hardware & software has to be top notch. It isn't, because there are many small and big bugs floating around. OTOH, theres also lots of improvements, too. I feel as it is, there is much work to be done on especially the software level, and I feel this is one of the reasons the NIT is not widely consumer-ready.

hordeman

2008-08-06, 18:32

We think that majority of the new members would search the forums for answers but then end up reading replies that are too technical that make them uncomfortable to post a follow-up question since they don’t know how to compose their replies.

So, there IS a god! Thank you for recognizing this! It is a bright day indeed. :)

iamthewalrus

2008-08-06, 18:54

I'm going to have to since there are more pitfalls than working solutions out there. That being said it's really not that hard. Barring all of the screwups that I don't have to do not a 2.5 minute video would probably take someone 30 minutes to get right. Less if they weren't trying to make it nice.

Have you looked at Wink (http://www.debugmode.com/wink/)? It's great for making flash-format tutorials. A downside may be that It's freeware and not FOSS.

brontide

2008-08-06, 19:18

Have you looked at Wink (http://www.debugmode.com/wink/)? It's great for making flash-format tutorials. A downside may be that It's freeware and not FOSS.

And not compiled for ARM :-(

iamthewalrus

2008-08-06, 19:29

And not compiled for ARM :-(

Agreed, but it seems usable if you vnc into a tablet.

brontide

2008-08-06, 19:56

Agreed, but it seems usable if you vnc into a tablet.

/me runs off to try some things.

iamthewalrus

2008-08-06, 20:35

The windows version of Wink, which is a later version, runs fine under Wine (1.1.2).

AbelMN

2008-08-07, 09:11

Read the full article. (http://www.internettablettalk.com/2008/08/05/introducing-tablet-scene/)

Great !.

I don't think of myself as a Newbie, doing (business) IT for more than 30 years, but can't keep up with all the technical details and stuff like differences between chinook, diablo and whatever. In this area I am an interested enduser, nothing more. I am very interested in how Nokia puts tablets in the Consumer Market, but can't spent enough time to play a role in Maemo of even ITT.

I think it is a very good idea to include the ITS stuff !

Hope this Scene suits me also. Wish you lots of succes!

Abel.

amigokin

2008-08-07, 13:04

No more "why don't you use search?" replies! Now you can answer "why don't use Tablet Scene?" LOL!

geneven

2008-08-10, 21:56

Lately I have been thinking that the right remark is "Have you clicked on Wiki?" The known answers should be put there. It's easy to find, whatever your search skills. It's small.

I have read a lot of threads in my life, and I think that no one should read a thread that is, say, more than 100 messages long. I read them all the time, but I think I shouldn't. It's just too much of a waste of time.

Once upon a time, paragraphs went on for pages in regular literature. Eventually, someone figured out that it just didn't work from the point of view of reader-friendliness. Now, virtually no author writes paragraphs that go on for pages. They break them up as a matter of course. I think this approach for threads would be a better general policy than the current one. As in literature, no one passed a law saying "you have to have shorter paragraphs!" It became a matter of common sense.

It's too bad people can't come to the same realization about thread length. Nobody wants to read a thread basically saying "hey, Diablo has just been released!" years after it was released. Many bugs are understood and fixed and one has to go thru all the fixed and irrelevant stuff just to find out some simple answer? It's just plain dumb.

In this case, maybe tradition is too strong and it is necessary to create a new site to escape a bad tradition. That's too bad.

TA-t3

2008-08-11, 13:07

I looked through, and posted a couple of responses to the tablet scene today. As it looks now I think it's well worth trying, if it works it'll be good, if not then it was at least tried. And I agree the wiki should be kept the same as the ITT one.

GeneralAntilles

2008-08-11, 15:06

And I agree the wiki should be kept the same as the ITT one.

The wiki we should be using is here (https://wiki.maemo.org/).

TA-t3

2008-08-11, 16:12

I thought those two were for different purposes? (the ITT one and the Maemo one). Presumably you mean to merge stuff over from ITT wiki to Category:Users? (BTW - the maemo wiki is a bit annoying with Firefox at least, because it keeps throwing up 'parts of this page is loaded over an insecure connection').

GeneralAntilles

2008-08-11, 16:41

andrewfblack

2008-08-11, 17:04

You know posts like this is why its hard to find usefil information on the itT forums since this topic has gone on and on about several other topics. I know Reggie doesn't have time to moderate every little post on this forum, but he needs a few people to split topics off if people are going to keep going on and on about stuff not on a topic. How can you ask someone to go search for something if you guys don't keep posts on topic.

TA-t3

2008-08-11, 17:04

OK, I'll copy over my own little contribution to ITT wiki to wiki.maemo.org soonish (although I still would like someone to fix that problem with mixed http/https content on the same page(s).. I'm not sure why it's even https in the first place actually)

brontide

2008-08-11, 18:47

No, the itT wiki is deprecated. The useful content there should be migrated and the wiki allowed to die.

Not to be contrary, but...

The iTT wiki has nothing noting the depreciation
wiki.maemo.org is still terribly unstable

andrewfblack

2008-08-11, 19:01

am I the only person who gets more
ERROR
The requested URL could not be retrieved

from wiki.maemo.org then I do pages loaded?

brontide

2008-08-11, 19:32

am I the only person who gets more
ERROR
The requested URL could not be retrieved

from wiki.maemo.org then I do pages loaded?

No, it's usually quick to recover, but it often goes out.

GeneralAntilles

2008-08-11, 19:55

Not to be contrary, but...

The iTT wiki has nothing noting the depreciation
wiki.maemo.org is still terribly unstable

Feel free to put one up. . . .

Server upgrades are imminent.

AbelMN

2008-08-11, 21:27

The wiki we should be using is here (https://wiki.maemo.org/).

An incredible useful recommendation:

If I click "here (https://wiki.maemo.org/)" I get a security warning either on my PC or my N800. So far so good. Ok, now the page tells me there is an old wiki. Fine. But where to go for wiki lessons and answers ?
The layout of the page is -to be really nice- terrible. It reads "This page was last modified 08:26, 19 July 2008"

Next I click User documentation: (Security warning again) and I find 21 documentation pages. I rest my case.

Can we please keep the ITT Wiki ? The ITT wiki is useful for end-users: the Maemo Wiki is fine, but limited and aimed at a much more technical audience (or incrowd).

Just for the record: I appreciate the Maemo Community 's work very much. Without this work the N8X0 series can’t survive. And the products are Excellent ! I certainly do not want to complain about the Maemo Wiki Pages. I understand very well that if I want to use the Maemo pages I should invest more time and effort. If I can find this time I certainly will. But right now I am just a simple end-user.

Last but not Least. I did notice, General, that you are one of the most active contributors to the ITT and I do respect your contributions. Most of them are helpful, however sometimes very detailed and technical.

I would appreciate nonetheless that “Senior Experts” would limit themselves to their expertise. Answers like : “Go to Wiki”, or “Do a search”, or "This answer is wrong" don’t help the Maemo community or the ITT community. You can’t control end-users or Newbies!

May I suggest, General, you update Maemo Wiki first, or even better: harmonize both wiki’s, before you make such a reference ?

I can only hope that the ITT Wiki remains understandable for “dummies” like me ! It is now and I appreciate the content, even if it is not always up-to date (Neither is the Maemo Wiki)

It crossed my mind that the ITS should not be accessible for 'Senior Members'. Just joking of course, and I appreciate that most of the senior members do consider their audience !

Abel.

Recalling the subject of this thread:

Introducing Tablet Scene

(Senior member since August 11th 2008. Yeeeaaahhh !! My Device will be: Modest, Humble and Unpretentious! )

GeneralAntilles

2008-08-11, 21:46

Can we please keep the ITT Wiki ? The ITT wiki is useful for end-users: the Maemo Wiki is fine, but limited and aimed at a much more technical audience (or incrowd).

The Maemo wiki is aimed at wherever the community wants it aimed. You think it needs more user-oriented articles, then get to it and write some.

*****ing about it isn't useful.

Just for the record: I appreciate the Maemo Community 's work very much. Without this work the N8X0 series can’t survive. And the products are Excellent ! I certainly do not want to complain about the Maemo Wiki Pages. I understand very well that if I want to use the Maemo pages I should invest more time and effort. If I can find this time I certainly will. But right now I am just a simple end-user.

Talk is fine and all, but actions are a whole lot more useful.

Last but not Least. I did notice, General, that you are one of the most active contributors to the ITT and I do respect your contributions. Most of them are helpful, however sometimes very detailed and technical.

Some subjects are technical, that is way of the world. Not everything can be boiled down so the lowest-common denominator can consume it.

I would appreciate nonetheless that “Senior Experts” would limit themselves to their expertise. Answers like : “Go to Wiki”, or “Do a search”, or "This answer is wrong" don’t help the Maemo community or the ITT community. You can’t control end-users or Newbies!

:rolleyes:

May I suggest, General, you update Maemo Wiki first, or even better: harmonize both wiki’s, before you make such a reference ?

Put up or shut up.

I can only hope that the ITT Wiki remains understandable for “dummies” like me ! It is now and I appreciate the content, even if it is not always up-to date (Neither is the Maemo Wiki)

The subject matter sets the tone of any article, not the whole of the wiki. Technical subjects require technical articles, simple subjects do not.

It crossed my mind that the ITS should not be accessible for 'Senior Members'. Just joking of course, and I appreciate that most of the senior members do consider their audience !

Don't worry, I wont be contributing there.

allnameswereout

2008-08-11, 22:55

* The ITT wiki contains no notice it is deprecated, nor is it in maintenance mode, and its still referenced to on ITT website;
* Some people aren't happy with the stability, reliability & usability of wiki.maemo.org whereas maemo.org is being revamped;
* Some people still read & write on the ITT wiki;
* The content is far from being merged;

Depricated? Wishful thinking. There is a lot to be done first, and its a huge spaghetti of information to deal with. Surely, it'll be around before the previously mentioned problems are fixed. So no worries Abel :)

GeneralAntilles

2008-08-12, 06:26

Also note: the wiki will never be great if we decide not to use it because it's not awesome now. An investment has to be made first, and if we never use it because that investment hasn't yet been made . . . well, it's a Catch-22 and a stupid situation to be in.

My point wasn't that you should use the wiki because it's completely 100% up-to-speed now, but because it's where most, and eventually all, of the future effort will be going (from me and a lot of other experienced and intelligent folk).

maemo.org's wiki is the future, itT's wiki is the past.

andrewfblack

2008-08-12, 10:34

Hey guys maybe we should make a new thread if we are going to discuss the wiki, I don't think it really fits under this post.

brontide

2008-08-12, 12:51

Also note: the wiki will never be great if we decide not to use it because it's not awesome now.

I don't care about awesome, I'll take *STABLE* over awesome any day.

allnameswereout

2008-08-12, 13:27

Also note: the wiki will never be great if we decide not to use it because it's not awesome now. An investment has to be made first, and if we never use it because that investment hasn't yet been made . . . well, it's a Catch-22 and a stupid situation to be in.

So instead of flaming people, like you did with Abel, start a team which works on this effort (the merging, especially). If you move data from one wiki to another, remove the content, and link to the new content. Then you know what has been merged and what hasn't and a pointer is there, too. But, like I said, the people who do this need to have the incentive to do so, and I think due to above reasons there isn't enough incentive (yet).

andrewfblack

2008-08-12, 13:34

GeneralAntilles

2008-08-12, 16:48

So instead of flaming people, like you did with Abel, start a team which works on this effort (the merging, especially). If you move data from one wiki to another, remove the content, and link to the new content. Then you know what has been merged and what hasn't and a pointer is there, too. But, like I said, the people who do this need to have the incentive to do so, and I think due to above reasons there isn't enough incentive (yet).

How about some of you guys puts a little effort into things like this for a change? I've put my time in in both wikis (you do realize most of the current organization of the itT wiki was mine and technut's doing, right?), but I don't have unlimited free-time, and doing everything for everybody wont work.

If the future is full of broken things that only work half the time then yeah its the wiki of the future. Don't get me wrong I want to post to both wiki's but I can't post to maemo.org wiki it wont let me.

As I've already said, the wiki will be fixed with the server upgrades that'll be coming shortly (the downtime this morning was the first step towards them).

Besides, lots of people edit the wiki just fine. Do you just not have an account?

andrewfblack

2008-08-12, 18:14

I'm half way insulted that you would think that I didn't have an account. I used to use the wiki fine, and I have several Garage projects, yes I have an account. Part of my problem might be IE7 but I've never had problems with IE7 and any other wiki's I find if I refresh the page about 8 times then some times it will finally go thru this morning I tried for 30 mins and it wouldnt' take my post. I do think that we shouldn't talk about moving everything to maemo wiki until it is stable, once it is stable I will be more then happy to help move itT Wiki Stuff over to Maemo wiki. Until it stable enough for me to post stuff there I'll keep posting it here and trying to post there.

GeneralAntilles

2008-08-12, 18:51

Related to the current maemo.org issues I filed bug #3564 (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3563).

Quoting from comment #1 (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3563#c1),

The server hits MaxClients. Probably all caches for the search engines timed
out and now they start to crawl again?

Just a few days before work on the new servers starts......

So, basically, between the server move and the Diablo update, maemo.org is getting pounded.

allnameswereout

2008-08-12, 19:48

I haven't found any organisation page of moving any wiki content. There is nothing I've read about it. There is no set of guidelines. I haven't found any discussion about this either.

You see, there are reasons hardly anyone is moving data around. If you care to negate these reasons, you need to pinpoint these reasons first, and then they have to be solved. Screaming around at people that they have to contribute isn't the right way.

For example, its great you figured why the wiki is working bad. Now it has to be solved...

GeneralAntilles

2008-08-25, 19:43

The layout of the page is -to be really nice- terrible. It reads "This page was last modified 08:26, 19 July 2008"

I finally get what exactly you meant by this. You seem to be thinking that the front page modification date has some sort of correlation to the quality of the wiki. Well, you do realize that the front page is never updated directly, right? All of its content is provided by templates. The templates get updated, not the front page. :rolleyes:

Branchedout

2008-08-25, 20:42

I've got a comment concerning the Tablet Scene.

It needs more of you techincal people visiting it.

I've been posting a few questions, and there's really only two knowlegable people there that reply.

It's great to get some living answers. Though these one or two people don't know -everything-.

Searching is a joke. I can't tell you how many times I've searched, where the topic's last post was over nine months ago.

I try not to ask questions here at ITT because they're all your average newbie questions.

GeneralAntilles

2008-08-25, 21:28

It needs more of you techincal people visiting it.

I've got my place where I invest my time, Tablet Scene is not one of them. Besides, many have made it clear enough that my presence there would not be appreciated.

andrewfblack

2008-08-26, 00:46

I've got my place where I invest my time, Tablet Scene is not one of them. Besides, many have made it clear enough that my presence there would not be appreciated.

GA you can come by you just have to be nice :)

fatalsaint

2008-08-26, 00:57

If more technical people visited it.... it would be itT....

I'm with GA on this one.. i don't need to be checking and re-checking my posts to make sure they are "tablet scene acceptable".

Texrat

2008-08-26, 02:18

I almost left ITT the first time I was told to just go search and find the answer my self.

You almost left a forum because people suggested that you learn to fish instead of throwing fish at you?

geneven

2008-08-26, 02:30

My guess is that about 95% of people who post here with questions HAVE searched for the answers. If this is true, the overwhelming percentage of people who are being asked to search are being insulted.

Also, the anti-newpost strategy has had wonderful success here. People would rather add on to a thread that doesn't even fit their topic rather than risk being pilloried for starting a new thread when one already existed. So we get the rolling-in-the-aisles-with-laughter exaggeration of not starting new threads -- threads that are hundreds of messages long, on combinations of subjects, with the posters knowing for sure that they won't be criticized for piling on.

If it wasn't for essential posters like Texrat we'd have quite a problem, but he always manages to quietly correct things so they stay on an even keel.

Texrat

2008-08-26, 02:40

My guess is that about 95% of people who post here with questions HAVE searched for the answers. .

My guess is just the opposite. I'll betcha MOST people (by far), especially newcomers, ask before searching. And of those who do search, I'll wager that a large number don't search efficiently and strategically. I can say that with reasonable confidence because (stealing your statistic here) 95% of my searches find what I want within the first 3 pages, and typically in the first page. I've stepped in to help users search on the 'net in other contexts and the vast majority of the time they have failed because they just flat don't understand search.

Of course, I've just set myself up for you to suggest we respond with searching tutorials instead of "hey, noob, hit the Search button!"

And was that last comment of yours sarcasm, geneven? My detector is on the fritz.

Oh, and 95% of all statistics are made up on the spot, ya know. :p

fatalsaint

2008-08-26, 04:00

In my experience... people ask the question first in hopes someone will just "tell" them the answer instead of figuring it out for themself..It's simply "easier" to make you go fish for me than to fish for myself... and because people are kind hearted and don't want to be jerks they do it.. and are thus taken advantage of.. until they do it so long they become bitter and really becomes jerks.

Some of us like to keep our sanity ;). I come here to tinker with and make the most of my tablet. If I happen to help a few new guys along the way that is wonderful - and it makes me feel good... but I'm not about to be worried about whether everyone likes me or not... I've got attainable goals I need to work towards.

Texrat

2008-08-26, 04:12

The problem with that approach, fatalsaint (as you may well know), is that too few of the answers for this product lend themselves to a quick one-line response. Many are the result of hours or weeks of effort by one or more advanced (or just plain stubborn) users and require a detailed explanation or set of instructions to solve. Then too there's what I call the General Antilles Factor which is a formula that figures in number of times the question has previously been asked, hostility level of the current asker, ratio of lines of text involved in the answer versus what the asker is willing to read, and when the potential respondent(s) last engaged in meaningful relations with something (or hopefully someone) more fulfilling than a 3-minute youporn video.

And don't mind geneven-- he's just ticked that his glass is half empty.

fatalsaint

2008-08-26, 04:24

That's exactly the point Tex, and well put...

is that too few of the answers for this product lend themselves to a quick one-line response.

The perfect example is a question "How do I boot from my SD card?"

There are about (at least) 3 complete How-to's; all different approaches and yet all functional ways to do this. So when I come across this question I have 3 choices:
1) Explain, all over again, all the steps involved in booting. (Sorry.. I don't have the time - or the patience)
2) Do the search the asker should have done first, find the post, copy the link, and give it to him (thus; throwing him the fish; I can only do this so many times before I get bored - and eventually annoyed.)
3) Tell the asker the answer is out there.. he just need to search for it. (easy for me; and provides him direction).

Thus.. many people choose option 3.. we keep our sanity - user at least knows his answer is lurking around here somewhere.. he/she just need find it.

Tablet Scene is built around options 1 or 2.. that's just not my scene :). And I know I'm not the only one. I also know this is unfair for new guys - but at the same time... I (we) can't be fixing everyone else's problem, and our own, and still have anything productive for US get done.

And hell.. last I checked - the glass was damn near evaporated ;).

Texrat

2008-08-26, 04:34

Maybe Tablet Scene should present, first and foremost, a guide to effective web search techniques... :p

Branchedout

2008-08-26, 04:36

If more technical people visited it.... it would be itT....

I'm with GA on this one.. i don't need to be checking and re-checking my posts to make sure they are "tablet scene acceptable".

What I mean by "more technical" is by people who know how to answer some of our questions at the Tablet Scene.

Having a forum full of people who don't know more than what the Internet Tablet School tells them isn't all that helpful.

Texrat

2008-08-26, 04:40

What I mean by "more technical" is by people who know how to answer some of our questions at the Tablet Scene.

Having a forum full of people who don't know more than what the Internet Tablet School tells them isn't all that helpful.

Lurking somewhere in that post, disguising itself cleverly, is the reason why some here feared fragmentation of the user base and duplication of effort-- even if it is technically one group shared by two forums.

geneven

2008-08-26, 04:42

"And of those who do search, I'll wager that a large number don't search efficiently and strategically"

But of course, that goes without saying, especially if you take into account that most neophytes don't know a lot of the key words. I stand by my 95% estimate of people trying some kind of search before asking questions; I guess there is no way to prove anything one way or another. It's true that some people want to announce their arrival by asking a question, nefarious and wicked though that is.

I myself would rather not know the answer than ask, in most cases.

But I know many unskilled computer users who will go for years doing things horribly without asking why they have to reboot before printing, or something ridiculous like that -- they will put up with practically anything rather than ask. Personally, I vastly prefer the blabbermouth question-askers.

And no, my comment about you wasn't sarcasm. You are an essential feature around here.

GeneralAntilles

2008-08-26, 04:49

The perfect example is a question "How do I boot from my SD card?"

Here's where I hope the effort on the wiki can come in: https://wiki.maemo.org/Booting_from_a_flash_card

Texrat

2008-08-26, 05:04

I stand by my 95% estimate of people trying some kind of search before asking questions; I guess there is no way to prove anything one way or another.

Not trying to perpetuate any sort of argument, but experience and observation has shown me that your estimate can be easily flipped and be more realistic-- I was being facetious when I used the word guess. :p

But hey, I decided to search on the subject and found a slightly relevant study on search habits:

http://www.webology.ir/2004/v1n2/a4.html

From 1996 to 1999, for more than 70 percent of the time, a user only viewed the top ten results. On average, users viewed 2.35 pages of results (where one page equals ten hits). Over 50% of the users did not access results beyond the first page. Jansen, Spink, and Saracevic (2000) found that more than three in four users did not go beyond viewing two pages. By 2001, only roughly one-third of users looked beyond the second page of Web sites retrieved (Spink, Jansen, Wolfram, & Saracevic, 2002). By 2003, in general users view about five Web documents per query (Jansen & Spink, 2003).

So in other words as the internet progressed, users regressed. Nice.

Granted, nothing about forum posting per se, but it does indicate the general laziness of web searchers. Unfortunately, that same laziness applies to people posting questions. And I'm betting we *could* perform an analysis of this site to determine a fairly accurate post/search ratio, but even though I'm actually intrigued by the idea I'm too lazy to do it. I do however have a statistic: 150,000 hits on Google for "search before posting". Hmmm... a little on the low side... :D

Oh, and thanks sincerely for the compliment. I apologize for ribbing you about your drinking glass. ;)

geneven

2008-08-26, 05:26

I said that I thought that 95% of posters did "some kind of search" before posting. By my definition, 100% of people who glanced at the first ten results of a search did "some kind of search". But they didn't have to use a search engine at all to do "some kind of search".

TA-t3

2008-08-26, 11:10

I'm not sure if any/most of you have actually visited tabletscene.. it seems to work out quite well, although it's true that there is currently not enough coverage of knowledge between those who currently answer questions there (I, for example, would know nothing if questions about e.g. canola or windows shares came up).

The site is relatively low traffic for now. The way I see it is that questions that should be relatively simple to answer could be posted there, if anyone asks the complicated ones (that is, those with complicated answers, e.g. 'how to boot from SD?'), then they should simply be sent over to ITT to ask there (with all what that implies). Then, when we answer questions there, we're easy on the jargon and we provide useful information with simple to follow instructions, if possible. If that's not possible, we don't answer (and never with a 'dude, go search'. I'm fine with that on ITT, but not on tabletscene).

I imagine this is more or less how Krisse meant it to work, and it actually does work, despite all the somewhat negative opinioning in this thread. The only problem is the limited number of people to answer questions. Unless the traffic there rises dramatically it's actually very easy to follow, and you're welcome over, but please be easy on those who post there.. OK?

Texrat

2008-08-26, 13:49

BrentDC

2008-08-26, 15:42

Not trying to perpetuate any sort of argument, but experience and observation has shown me that your estimate can be easily flipped and be more realistic-- I was being facetious when I used the word guess. :p

But hey, I decided to search on the subject and found a slightly relevant study on search habits:

http://www.webology.ir/2004/v1n2/a4.html

So in other words as the internet progressed, users regressed. Nice.

Granted, nothing about forum posting per se, but it does indicate the general laziness of web searchers. Unfortunately, that same laziness applies to people posting questions. And I'm betting we *could* perform an analysis of this site to determine a fairly accurate post/search ratio, but even though I'm actually intrigued by the idea I'm too lazy to do it. I do however have a statistic: 150,000 hits on Google for "search before posting". Hmmm... a little on the low side... :D

I wouldn't call it a regression. I don't know about you, but when I can't find what I'm looking for in the first bit of results, I either:

A) Search within the results
B) Add new keywords to my search
C) Better phrase and express my query
D) Use more advanced search features (if available)
E) Try Google if I'm not using it already :p

It is only good search technique, right? ;)

qole

2008-08-26, 15:58

But hey, I decided to search on the subject and found a slightly relevant study on search habits:

http://www.webology.ir/2004/v1n2/a4.html

So in other words as the internet progressed, users regressed. Nice.

Granted, nothing about forum posting per se, but it does indicate the general laziness of web searchers.

Nah, the results are garbage after the first page anyway. If what you're looking for isn't on the first page, you didn't search right. I say that people don't bother looking past the first page of results because they've learned from experience that there's nothing of much use out there past the first page.

Now, on the other hand, the built-in search tool on this forum is very different. Since it sorts results first by date, not by relevance, you have to wade through several pages of useless dreck to get to what you want, if what you want is 6 months old. The Google Search (http://www.google.com/cse?cx=005981223421171304650%3Awt9tjwf2kd4) does not have this problem; I try to use it whenever possible.

Texrat

2008-08-26, 16:11

Good points qole and Brent. But I have seen exceptions, where even using robust search methods still resulted in the result I really wanted showing up on the second or third page. But in those cases it mainly indicates the wealth of knowledge on the subject (for me, typically mythology or Visual basic programming) combined with my pathological desire to find just the right page... :D

iamthewalrus

2008-08-26, 16:33

My way to search this, or any other site with a crappy search form, is by typing in the Firefox urlbar: "here: some searchterms". How does this work you may wonder. Easy: Add a bookmark with keyword "here:" and Location:

javascript:void(location.href='http://www.google.co.uk/search?&q=site:'+location.href.split(%22/%22)[2]+'+%s&sourceid=firefox')

qole

2008-08-26, 16:38

Wow, that here: trick is snazzy.

TA-t3

2008-08-26, 16:42

@iamthewalrus:
Interesting. Does that work only on Windows? It doesn't seem to work on my Firefox3 on Linux. If I enter 'here: some searchterm' on the urlbar I get a message saying 'the protocol (here) isn't associated with any program'. If I click the bookmark I get a google search on the site with %s

EDIT: Scratch that, it works! I had put 'here:' in Name instead of Keyword. Great trick!
:D

qole

2008-08-26, 17:11

Maybe it's a FF2 vs FF3 thing. It worked in my Debian FF2 no problem.

gatonero

2008-08-26, 17:15

Typical example for ITT-threads! The content seldom hits the title.

Texrat

2008-08-26, 18:14

Typical example for ITT-threads! The content seldom hits the title.

I believe it's just the opposite-- the non sequiters are the exception overall.

Ironically, though, your post counts as off topic. :D

qole

2008-08-26, 18:36

I believe it's just the opposite-- the non sequiters are the exception overall.

...and I'm usually there, right in the middle of it.

Reggie

2008-08-26, 19:16

The Google Search (http://www.google.com/cse?cx=005981223421171304650%3Awt9tjwf2kd4) does not have this problem;

FYI, that's built in to itT already. If you use the search feature on the main page, it produces a better result, showing different ways to filter them.

Texrat

2008-08-26, 19:43

...and I'm usually there, right in the middle of it.

qolling, qolling, qolling...

allnameswereout

2008-08-27, 01:04

That's exactly the point Tex, and well put...

The perfect example is a question "How do I boot from my SD card?"

There are about (at least) 3 complete How-to's; all different approaches and yet all functional ways to do this. So when I come across this question I have 3 choices:
1) Explain, all over again, all the steps involved in booting. (Sorry.. I don't have the time - or the patience)
2) Do the search the asker should have done first, find the post, copy the link, and give it to him (thus; throwing him the fish; I can only do this so many times before I get bored - and eventually annoyed.)
3) Tell the asker the answer is out there.. he just need to search for it. (easy for me; and provides him direction).

Thus.. many people choose option 3.. we keep our sanity - user at least knows his answer is lurking around here somewhere.. he/she just need find it.

Tablet Scene is built around options 1 or 2.. that's just not my scene :). And I know I'm not the only one. I also know this is unfair for new guys - but at the same time... I (we) can't be fixing everyone else's problem, and our own, and still have anything productive for US get done.

And hell.. last I checked - the glass was damn near evaporated ;).

Theres one important factor you're not including: tone.

If you deal with customers it is very important to keep a nice tone. This makes a person feel comfortable. You can still tell the person he/she is wrong, and they're more willing to accept this if you assert it in the right way.

Instead of telling someone "you're wrong, idiot" you can say "perhaps if you look at it this and this way you notice". Or, "yes, we might have made a mistake there, but you should have done it right in the first place"; then working towards solving the problem. Another example: "UTFS!" or "Your question has been asked and answered already. Please, use the search (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/search.php)".

The sarcasm smiley doesn't help either. The first and last line of a text are best remembered, and if the last part is a sarcasm smiley I guarantee you it doesn't arrive nice. Its often not used in combination with sarcasm, and often used to belittle the person directed at. Where is the respect? Is it that much work just to remember the other persons also have feelings? If you're not able to do that perhaps its better to not reply at all... :)

So in other words as the internet progressed, users regressed. Nice.

Google ;)

Seriously, I know people who'd fill in internettablettalk.com in Google search, and then click on the first hit. I can explain once or twice why they're being inefficient, but in the end it doesn't matter that much. Except for lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Besides that, if I search for something and Wikipedia has an entry and this entry is good enough why would I search further?

Here's a lecture by Fravia about searching and finding http://www.archive.org/details/Fravia_Reversing_our_searching_habits_Power_search ing_without_google his website is http://searchlores.org he's been into this subject for many years (10+) :)

Texrat

2008-08-27, 02:24

Theres one important factor you're not including: tone.

If you deal with customers it is very important to keep a nice tone.

I don't think anyone here is paid customer support. Last time I checked, everyone that helps volunteers.

Now, I'm not excusing any outright nastiness. But I do understand some of the testiness that arises. Since these are volunteers we're talking about, and this is not Nokia customer service, the "customers" have at least half a stake in this, too. That means doing their part to avoid wasting the time of those stepping up to help. Surely it's easy to see that saves them time, too.

I'm sure someone will throw out the fact that the people asking many of the questions are unsophisticated in the ways of technical devices, and that's why they're here. I don't accept that on face value. I question anyone who purchases an internet tablet without doing a bit of homework first. Heck, that includes almost any purchase. I don't expect anyone to read a few specs and become instant experts, but on the other hand, they should learn enough to think long and hard before making the purchase. Many of those popping in here turned out to have made impulse purchases, and they take their frustration out on forum members trying to help. They also show no interest in wanting to learn but instead want to be spoonfed. That rubs some people the wrong way.

allnameswereout

2008-08-29, 18:30

I found this useful post in the Newbie forum about how to use the search (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23183).

I don't think anyone here is paid customer support. Last time I checked, everyone that helps volunteers.

Now, I'm not excusing any outright nastiness. But I do understand some of the testiness that arises. Since these are volunteers we're talking about, and this is not Nokia customer service, the "customers" have at least half a stake in this, too. That means doing their part to avoid wasting the time of those stepping up to help. Surely it's easy to see that saves them time, too.

Our treshold level of nastiness differs, that is for sure.

Based on the observed behaviour here and there its clear to me some people here wouldn't function at a job involving customer support.

As you pointed out, where there is conflict, 2 or more parties are involved. The parties should reflect on how to solve the problem(s) but because we are the party who is perceived as the wise ones (because we serve information), we should also behave in a adolescent manner.

The fact that this isn't paid customer support is related to the issue. If you'd be paid for helping a user there'd be a different set of rules, and perhaps such system might actually work on ItS.

That doesn't mean you should express yourself in the way you want to though. For example, one could ignore a stupid question, or kindly explaining the person the mistake they made, or kindly pointing to a howto which explains how to use the search effectively (or a useful post like the one I pointed at above). If you're not able to do this please don't reply. You're not fit to be in contact with this particular person on this particular subject.

I'm sure someone will throw out the fact that the people asking many of the questions are unsophisticated in the ways of technical devices, and that's why they're here. I don't accept that on face value. I question anyone who purchases an internet tablet without doing a bit of homework first. Heck, that includes almost any purchase. I don't expect anyone to read a few specs and become instant experts, but on the other hand, they should learn enough to think long and hard before making the purchase. Many of those popping in here turned out to have made impulse purchases, and they take their frustration out on forum members trying to help. They also show no interest in wanting to learn but instead want to be spoonfed. That rubs some people the wrong way.

I understand your point of view and am able to relate to it.

Ironically, those are exactly the kind of people who'd pay for customer support :)

There is no reason we have to accept frustration from any party. We should all do our best to limit events involving frustration.

GeneralAntilles

2008-08-29, 19:29

Based on the observed behaviour here and there its clear to me some people here wouldn't function at a job involving customer support.

Don't extrapolate people's behavior online to possible job performance. That's a bit like observing somebody drunk at a party and deciding that they wouldn't be a very good employee. It just doesn't follow.

Things work a lot differently when one actually has a reason for babying people. Like, say, getting paid. :)

That doesn't mean you should express yourself in the way you want to though. For example, one could ignore a stupid question, or kindly explaining the person the mistake they made, or kindly pointing to a howto which explains how to use the search effectively (or a useful post like the one I pointed at above). If you're not able to do this please don't reply. You're not fit to be in contact with this particular person on this particular subject.

Hey, ho, welcome to the Ubuntu forums, where nobody gets an answer on anything! :rolleyes: Personally, I'd rather get a snarky remark that points me in a useful direction than no response at all.

qole

2008-08-29, 22:55

Don't extrapolate people's behavior online to possible job performance. That's a bit like observing somebody drunk at a party and deciding that they wouldn't be a very good employee. It just doesn't follow.

I actually think it is probably safe to extrapolate a persons' behavior when drunk to their behaviour when sober. The person tends to be very much themselves, writ large, when drunk. I suspect you could say the same thing about a persons' online behaviour...

Hey, ho, welcome to the Ubuntu forums, where nobody gets an answer on anything! :rolleyes: Personally, I'd rather get a snarky remark that points me in a useful direction than no response at all.

I'm doing my small part (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=5675523#post5675523) to make the Ubuntu forums a better place! :D

allnameswereout

2008-08-29, 23:31

Don't extrapolate people's behavior online to possible job performance. That's a bit like observing somebody drunk at a party and deciding that they wouldn't be a very good employee. It just doesn't follow.

Funny. Ever had a business meeting involving alcohol? Now, reflect: do you feel what was being said there holds no value whatsoever? Important decisions are made on alcohol.

As for comparing to drunk. I don't believe anyone here is behaving like a drunk mofo. So the compare itself is a bit extreme.

I'm glad you mentioned the example though. Drugs don't morph one personality into a different personality. They alter someones behaviour. The personality is just the same whereas the output is different therefore you perceive different behaviour. One who's good with psychoanalysis can see through such though.

Hey, ho, welcome to the Ubuntu forums, where nobody gets an answer on anything! :rolleyes:

Strange, I just went to Ubuntu's beginner forum (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=326) and (not counting stickies) I noticed only 1 post out of 20 with 0 replies.

Besides that, quantity doesn't matter. Quality does.

Personally, I'd rather get a snarky remark that points me in a useful direction than no response at all.

Snarky remarks lower the signal-to-noise ratio. If a person with a question doesn't get a reply they might get impatient and commit to research themselves. They might even leave (which isn't necessarily bad given you don't want this kind of behaviour).

Now, lets see what happens of they get a reply. No matter what kind of reply, no matter the content of the reply, they'll use that as input. If it is a snarky reply it lowers the comfort level of the user because he/she feels insulted. They probably don't see how wrong they are themselves (lack of self reflection due to lack of knowledge about netiquette). The insulter got his candy though: he/she gets an ego boost from belittling someone. I don't believe this is the kind of behaviour we want on a open community.

brontide

2008-08-30, 02:07

I've posted once once or twice to tablet scene. I really don't have unlimited time or energy and it's become apparent that it's better to remain silent than give an answer that is not "appropriate" for newbies.

After experiencing the questions and feedback I now believe that another forum was a bad idea. Either the subform of iTT so that technical question can be moved easily or some sort of "Yahoo Answers" style feedback system.

Texrat

2008-08-30, 04:45

Our treshold level of nastiness differs, that is for sure.

And how did you determine this? I didn't provide my definition.

As for comparing to drunk. I don't believe anyone here is behaving like a drunk mofo. So the compare itself is a bit extreme.

His analogy was appropriate in the context used.

As for the old canard that people are their true selves while drunk, it is not always an exaggeration of the self they present to others. It's anecdotal, but one example is my best friend, who is the nicest guy you'd ever meet when sober, but the meaniest, nastiest drunk I've ever encountered. What you see when he's drunk is not his altered or revealed true self, but rather the pain he's hidden away. So, please, let's dispense with overly-simple analyses of personality.

Anyway, you're struggling awfully hard to defend the boorish behavior of questioners while chastising the boorish behavior of answerers. How about a little intellectual honesty instead.

allnameswereout

2008-08-30, 05:41

As for the old canard that people are their true selves while drunk, it is not always an exaggeration of the self they present to others. It's anecdotal, but one example is my best friend, who is the nicest guy you'd ever meet when sober, but the meaniest, nastiest drunk I've ever encountered. What you see when he's drunk is not his altered or revealed true self, but rather the pain he's hidden away. So, please, let's dispense with overly-simple analyses of personality.

Therefore, what we see here is the hidden pain of intellectuals? ;)

The pain your friend has is part of himself (unsolved emotional wounds) which isn't dealt with. How do you know he's a healthy person? It surely doesn't sound healthy to me that he is carrying a lot of pain while only able to express this when drunk. It surely isn't normal to behave in such manner after drinking alcohol. Maybe he isn't a good example, an exception to the norm.

I don't see the relation between a forum and a drunk person. Are you drunk when you're on this forum? I don't know about your definition of drunk, but mine involves hardly or not being able to type on a keyboard. Perhaps a better analogy is having used a few glasses alcohol. However it appears to me the point is that this is one's leisure time playground where its justified to be mean to a person who asks for help no matter what their question is? Theres a saying: "The only bad question is the one not asked".

Anyway, you're struggling awfully hard to defend the boorish behavior of questioners while chastising the boorish behavior of answerers. How about a little intellectual honesty instead.

Because I can empathise with both groups because I've been in both situations and am in one of these situations almost daily, and given some answerers appear to have this elitist attitude that they feel its right to belittle someone who is asking for help, I find that pretty low and immature. It doesn't reflect the proclaimed wisdom they claim to have; which was my point in my previous post. Just like a parent should show the right example to his/her kids regulars are able to set the right example to newbies. Simple as kissing, I'd say.

Texrat

2008-08-30, 18:09

Methinks thou doth protest too much.

gemniii42

2008-08-30, 20:05

There are about three or four levels of my responses to people asking for help on this forum, and all are modified by my perception of the level of user I may be responding to and their post counts.

Even google here does not always provide a good result.

Particularly aggravating is the poster who writes a they didn't search, just please solve their problem. Perhaps worse is the poster who when told the information is on the forum responds to my post asking me to look it up for them.

Some questions bear repeating, such as what is the cheapest phone/data plan, because they change with time.

I just started using fbreader again and could not deduce how to turn a page at a time (small scroll, 24 lines). I could not find it in the wicki links either. After about 15 minutes of searching I found what I thought was a good summary.

http://www.teleread.org/blog/2007/08/29/fbreader-ten-easy-tips-for-e-book-users-who-want-to-switch-to-a-linux-handheld/#fbreadertips

and put it in the wicki.

I was looking for a good step by step guide for setting up rsync again. Almost all the threads here had snippets and a search for rsync on the wicki turned up zilch. I explained that and allnameswereout kindly posted me an excellent link.

Posters who do not seem interested enough to do some work should not expect us to do it for them.

Also there should be a link to Tablet Scene on more pages.

noventa98

2008-08-30, 20:45

I think that the idea of Tablet Scene is worth exploring. I have been following this forum for almost two years and lately I was surprised by nasty answers more than by nasty questions. Hopefully the Tablet Scene will help out the newbies better even if those that are not aware of netiquette. The question is whether users will make the difference. Especially new ones.

Having said that most of the discours (and the same goes for posters) is interesting and civil. Sometimes a little to technical for me, but I do not pretend to be so intelligent.

Regards,
Antonio

allnameswereout

2008-09-05, 01:50

Regarding Wiki, I find it messy.

People read from top to bottom, and the first and the last are best remembered.

Now, I see for example on the main page a list called 'Internet' and then I see half of the entries about web browsing. On top of the Internet list is info about N770 (an EOL device from 2005). Why put that on top? I suggest to merge all useful data to the new wiki and let this wiki indeed die.

Once the new device and OS are out, or right before that, it is a good day to switch.

Before that precautions have to be taken.

On the Data Plans entry I thought of including a transparent map as picture allowing someone to click on the map instead of clicking on their country but I gave up on the idea. Anyway, this list is basically not related to any OS or device but the information is useful. Same abou the ebook list entry. Now, those can be moved to a new wiki with the old pointing to the new, correct? No implications except an extra click.

Or it might be better to tag data entries instead. E.g. "This data applies to OS2006, OS2007, OS2008, N770, N800." The list gets quite long though.

How are we going to manage these big piles of data? This is now a problem and requires infrastructure change. It won't become less of a problem by doing nothing; only worse. And without some kind of structure to change, it won't change in a good manner...