What I want in the 770 follow-up...

[diJenerate]

Hi all,
Ok, the 770 is a great job for a first gen machine, but now there are rumours of a follow-up, here is what I think should be in there.
Let's start with the 770's hardware and work with that:

1. Dedicated video accelerator
2. VGA out (external monitor support)
3. 5-inch display 1024x600 (the new rage)
4. 2GB internal NAND Flash (minimum)
5. 256MB RAM
6. BT 2.0+EDR and 802.11g
5. Built-in Webcam, mic and speaker
6. Built-in powered USB 2.0 host
7. Built-in GPS support

diJenerate

[=DC=]

I think some of those would be perfect:

1. Dedicated video accelerator
4. 2GB internal NAND Flash (minimum)
5. 256MB RAM
6. BT 2.0+EDR and 802.11g
5. Built-in Webcam, mic and speaker

The other additions would dramatically reduce battery life, and I'm not so sure we want that. I'll add what I think should be in the next Internet Tablet since this seems to be where this thread is heading:

- SD/MMC card combo slot
- Slightly faster CPU
- Better navigation buttons

[mallard]

With all those features, it's likely to cost $700.

1. If you mean OpenGL accelleration there is little point (plus it would be expensive and power-consuming) and 2D graphics are already plenty fast enough. If they upgraded to say a 500MHz proccessor then 3D games would be great.
2. Why? For presentations? If they added an expansion system, say a USB 2.0 host port.
3. The current screen is great, I don't think it needs an upgrade.
4. 512MB/1GB of flash would be plenty, this isn't a portable media player!
5. With 64MB swap, the current device has plenty of RAM, so 128MB of physical RAM should be just as plentiful, if not better.
6. We already have 802.11g. The current bluetooth is fine.
7 (5!?). A webcam would be nice, but IMHO, it would be better as an optional add-on, possibly using the USB port (there is no reason why this could not be done on the current hardware). We already have mic and speaker.
8 (6). Good idea, I should read the entire list before suggesting things!
9 (7). It's not a GPS device and bluetooth GPS works well enough as it is. I dont really see the point. Nokia could make an official add-on though.

My suggestions:
1. Official bluetooth keyboard that can clip onto the device, possibly also acting as a stand.
2. Cool expansion options, such as webcam, wired ethernet, POTS modem, GPS, TV tuner, etc...

[omegaone37]

Let me add my 2¢...

before releasing ANY enhancement to the Nokia 770... make sure that ALL members of the 770 community can FLASH any new OS to their devices... that means Mac users!!!

ARRRRGGGG!

Omega
omegaone37@mac.com

[bradpitcher]

I would really like it if they could somehow design the sleeve to double as a stand.

[troubleshootr]

I would like to be able to hide the half inch wide side menu-bar, and be able to add custom home desktop shortcuts.

[GenD]

Web browser compatiblity with Web 2.0 apps. This has to be Priority #1 for a web tablet like this. For example, Google's new Picasa Web Albums would be ideal for this device -- it automatically resizes photos to fit screen dimensions. That would save me the trouble of resizing and transfering photos to my 770. Why should I have to do this if I already have created Picasa Web Albums.
An "around the house" form factor with docking station for recharging. Add an inch to the screen dimensions. It doesn't need to fit in my pocket. OTOH, don't make it as big as a notebook computer. I want to be able to hold it easily when reading on the coach or in bed. I was happy to read that Nokia is considering "different form factors" (http://news.com.com/Next+Nokia+minitablet+to+get+Webcam%2C+WiMax/2100-1044_3-6086747.html) .


I'd prefer not to have a web cam built in. I wouldn't use it and don't like the idea of extra bulk and weight with no need. It would seem out of step with the Nokia 770 principle of orthogonality (http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2005/09/770-for-surfing-small-phone-for_24.html) -- Specialized devices that interoperate, as opposed to integrating many disparate functions into a single device.

[bradpitcher]

* An "around the house" form factor
Oh please, NOOO!! I love how small it is, I take it with me everywhere. If I wanted an "around the house" form factor I would get a pepperpad or a tablet pc. Besides, I think it already works well around the house and I view large websites on it with no problem. The ability to drag around websites with the stylus really compensates for the smaller screen size.

[Bowie]

Easy.

1) GET RID OF GNOME/HILDON. Simply put, it's bloat, and doesn't deliver the bang-per-buck that a simple X11+WindowMaker or other GNUStep desktop delivers. Not only would our tablets be faster and more responsive, but we'd have oodles more memory available. Unfortunately, I don't think this is ever going to happen, primarrily because the people working on the 770 have never seen a Linux box that didn't have GNOME or KDE installed. *sigh*. I'm on the verge of doing this myself, just to see how big the difference is.

2) MORE APPLICATIONS. Don't just release the tablet and expect a cult following! Maemo is a good start, but there should have been boatloads of programs already ported before the device even hit the shelves. It can't be that hard. The 2006 OS just came out, and the application package shelves are still bare. What the hell have you guys been up to in the past year?

3) GIVE UP ON HANDWRITING RECOGNITION. Nobody uses it!

4) USE A LOW-POWER CPU WITH AN X86 INSTRUCTION SET. They exist! Solves problem #2 in one fell swoop, too, while making future applications that much easier to eventually see running on a 770 as well. I write apps for X11, and the only thing stopping me from writing apps for the 770 is the whole ridiculous gnome/hildon/maemo/arm mess that I neither have the time nor the patience to learn.

5) ENCOURAGE HACKING. Word of mouth = $$$.

6) INCLUDE USEFUL TOOLS. It's been a year, and there still isn't a useable rdesktop client out there, or a clock/calendar that makes any sense. VNC is a mess. Where's the standard slate of PDA tools? Yes, I know, I know, it's an "internet tablet", not a PDA. But guess what. It's a PDA.

7) MAKE IT FUN. How long would it have taken to get MAME or at least an Atari 2600 emulator ported to it? Hell, most PDA game shops are struggling to survive. A couple free 770's and $5000 cash would give any shop a real boost, and something cool for everyone to use.

[Serge]

4) USE A LOW-POWER CPU WITH AN X86 INSTRUCTION SET. They exist! Solves problem #2 in one fell swoop, too, while making future applications that much easier to eventually see running on a 770 as well.
Do they really exist? I thought that UMPC's are such power hungry monsters because of x86 cpu. Though I'm quite new to development for embedded systems and may be wrong. One of the benefits of linux is that it can run on a variety of cpu architectures. I wonder if it is possible to use some more advanced architectures for maemo later to improve performance/watt ratio even more, for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVR32

I write apps for X11, and the only thing stopping me from writing apps for the 770 is the whole ridiculous gnome/hildon/maemo/arm mess that I neither have the time nor the patience to learn.

Seems like I also write app for X11 to some extent (thought X11 is accessed through allegro game programming library layer). And I did not have to deal with gnome/hildon/maemo mess at all. And when writing portable code, you should not have problems with arm as well. Have you really tried programming for maemo already?

[GenD]

Oh please, NOOO!! I love how small it is, I take it with me everywhere. If I wanted an "around the house" form factor I would get a pepperpad or a tablet pc. Besides, I think it already works well around the house and I view large websites on it with no problem. The ability to drag around websites with the stylus really compensates for the smaller screen size.

:confused: Hmm, I don't quite understand your thought process. I wasn't suggesting the elimination of the pocketable form factor, but rather an additional form factor that is a little larger ("one inch bigger" I said). I think a larger screen would make for a more pleasant reading experience, especially for the (demographicaly important) baby boomer generation with less than perfect eyes. I know several people I think would enjoy the 770 but I don't bother recommending it them because I know that would have a hard time with the small screen. I don't believe a web-tablet should require so much zooming and horizontal scrolling.

Why does wishing for a larger screen mean I should jump ship and switch to a different platform entirely when I've already invested time learning the tips and UI quirks of this platform? That is strange advice coming from a 770 advocate.

I would have thought proponents of the 770 would want the product to be successful, resulting in more software availability and a continuing line of hardware.

[Karel Jansens]

Easy.

1) GET RID OF GNOME/HILDON. Simply put, it's bloat, and doesn't deliver the bang-per-buck that a simple X11+WindowMaker or other GNUStep desktop delivers. Not only would our tablets be faster and more responsive, but we'd have oodles more memory available. Unfortunately, I don't think this is ever going to happen, primarrily because the people working on the 770 have never seen a Linux box that didn't have GNOME or KDE installed. *sigh*. I'm on the verge of doing this myself, just to see how big the difference is.

It would be nice to see a different Linux distro for the 770. It was done for the Zaurus platform and ended up being better and more popular than the default distro.

3) GIVE UP ON HANDWRITING RECOGNITION. Nobody uses it!

Well, I use it, so by definition it has to stay. :cool:

It just has to become better than that piece of garbage that is included.

[gnuite]

Easy.

1) GET RID OF GNOME/HILDON. Simply put, it's bloat, and doesn't deliver the bang-per-buck that a simple X11+WindowMaker or other GNUStep desktop delivers. Not only would our tablets be faster and more responsive, but we'd have oodles more memory available. Unfortunately, I don't think this is ever going to happen, primarrily because the people working on the 770 have never seen a Linux box that didn't have GNOME or KDE installed. *sigh*. I'm on the verge of doing this myself, just to see how big the difference is.
X11+Windowmaker is not going to sell Nokia 770s to the general public. And kudos for insulting the linux experience of people that decided to build their operating system on top of linux. Maybe next time they'll choose Windows Mobile just to spite you (or to make you happy?).


2) MORE APPLICATIONS. Don't just release the tablet and expect a cult following! Maemo is a good start, but there should have been boatloads of programs already ported before the device even hit the shelves. It can't be that hard. The 2006 OS just came out, and the application package shelves are still bare. What the hell have you guys been up to in the past year?
The device does what it is intended and advertised to do. If that's not enough for you, don't buy it.


3) GIVE UP ON HANDWRITING RECOGNITION. Nobody uses it!
Hard to argue here, although there are at least a few people using it, and this is something that could actually be improved at the software level (i.e. without a hardware upgrade), so I don't think we need to give up on it just yet.


4) USE A LOW-POWER CPU WITH AN X86 INSTRUCTION SET. They exist! Solves problem #2 in one fell swoop, too, while making future applications that much easier to eventually see running on a 770 as well. I write apps for X11, and the only thing stopping me from writing apps for the 770 is the whole ridiculous gnome/hildon/maemo/arm mess that I neither have the time nor the patience to learn.
I don't see a problem with the arm processor, and using an x86 processor would most definitely not automatically solve "problem" #2, especially if you're also taking out the gnome infrastructure. What more would you be able to run? xeyes? Yee haw. (By the way, I'm pretty sure xeyes could be built for an arm processor.)


5) ENCOURAGE HACKING. Word of mouth = $$$.
I think they've done a pretty good job of this. I had never been a part of a serious open source project until I picked up my Nokia 770 and decided that I needed a better navigation system than GPSDrive (which is, by the way, a perfect counter-example to your "problem" #4). Oh, and an open-source gnome infrastructure greatly encourages hacking - taking out the gnome part would reduce the hackability for those of us already familiar with the GTK libraries.


6) INCLUDE USEFUL TOOLS. It's been a year, and there still isn't a useable rdesktop client out there, or a clock/calendar that makes any sense. VNC is a mess. Where's the standard slate of PDA tools? Yes, I know, I know, it's an "internet tablet", not a PDA. But guess what. It's a PDA.
Is this the same as "problem" #2? This non-problem is worthy of two separate "problem" enumerations?


7) MAKE IT FUN. How long would it have taken to get MAME or at least an Atari 2600 emulator ported to it? Hell, most PDA game shops are struggling to survive. A couple free 770's and $5000 cash would give any shop a real boost, and something cool for everyone to use.
Buy a PSP. The Nokia 770 is not a toy, although 3rd party development may someday allow it to perform some of the operations of one.

[frenchie]

Hmm, well all I would like to see is a regular SD and/or CF slot.

The device is perfect as-is :)

[bradpitcher]

I wasn't suggesting the elimination of the pocketable form factor, but rather an additional form factor that is a little larger ("one inch bigger" I said).
Gotcha. I didn't catch that before. Yeah, it does make sense to have an additional option. Sorry, I got a little defensive at the thought of losing my pocketable device. ;)

I would have thought proponents of the 770 would want the product to be successful, resulting in more software availability and a continuing line of hardware.
Good point.

[infinitespecter]

6. We already have 802.11g. The current bluetooth is fine.

Sorry, but the current Bluetooth is NOT fine. EVDO networks like Verizon's or Sprint's Power Vision are quite capable of oversaturating Bluetooth 1.1. In fact, they are significantly quicker then BT1.1 is. Given that Nokia makes connecting to a phone such a big deal, it only makes sense to use a connection that can take full advantage. I agree on just about everything else though.

[diJenerate]

Sorry, but the current Bluetooth is NOT fine. EVDO networks like Verizon's or Sprint's Power Vision are quite capable of oversaturating Bluetooth 1.1. In fact, they are significantly quicker then BT1.1 is. Given that Nokia makes connecting to a phone such a big deal, it only makes sense to use a connection that can take full advantage. I agree on just about everything else though.


Additionally, A device like this could seriously benefit from A2DP support. I know the BlueZ team hasn't quite gotten that supported in linux but it's not that far away and as long as the hardware supports it, software will come.

None of our complaints here should be about software. The job of the developer is to make the code do what he or she and or the end user wants so developers can write or change anything over time. Our main issues here should be about hardware which can't be changed after the device is made.

So yes to the Bluetooth, I see the point on battery life with regard to GPS and USB host, but a Host port that can support at least one low powered device will be welcomed.

Additionally, SDHC support means we can use the larger capacity SD cards as they come out (4GB+). As for the screen, yes the general consensus is that screen size is an issue with regard readability for the spectacle wearers like myself, so 5-inches makes sense. Anything beyond that size is really asking much of the battery.

Nokia is a phone manufacturer, so they know how to make decent device battery decisions. I believe that a 1024x600 18-bit color screen with the same processor we have now and dedicated video acceleration would be more beneficial from a performance vs battery life point of view than a faster processor and no dedicated video. Look at the Dell X51v vs the newer Zaurus C-series on video performance. You can always zoom on a higher rez screen to see smaller font where as you can't stuff 1024 pixel wide pages or desktops (NX/VNC) on to an 800 pixel wide screen without the annoying scroll. On a 5-inch screen 1024x600 isn't too bad believe me.

Making the system work on x86 is not a good idea. Yes it is possible to get an x86 processor that is low powered like the AMD Geode... the problem is that x86 means that we will want to run the apps and utils that we have on our desktops and when we can't get desktop performance, we will bash the nokia's performance.

We should stick to .arm and leave x86 access to NX connections. This is a web tablet and the next should be a webtablet on steriods. .arm architecture is the way to go with a decent display so we can have independent multimedia usage without major compromise when not surfing. On the storage, RAM and Webcam front... 2GB is not that much for internal Flash today, 256MB RAM will allow better performance of multimedia apps on that higher res screen and the webcam is not that power hungry, but could be quite inconvenient if an add-on.[/rant]

diJenerate