View Full Version : RTComm Beta Features in Fremantle?
benny1967
2009-01-30, 14:00
Does anybody know if things that already work with the current RTComm Beta will be part of Fremantle? The current Alpha lacks (from what I see) things like telepathy-salut, telepathy-idle, avahi ... things I love using on my tablet right now.
I had even hoped for these components to be part of OS2008 some day (you know, them being released as "beta" suggested there'd be the day when they're considered stable and move into the core OS), but not finding them in what's known about Fremantle is a bit disappointing.
Selling a device with some of these packages pre-installed might be tricky for a company...
The OS2008 Instant Messaging Upgrades (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=14313) had mixed results, some positive and so... so-la-la (http://www.dict.cc/german-english/so+la+la.html). How would you do it better in Fremantle? How a community project could integrate these protocols as add-ons?
Is it there enough developer energy to back this project? What are the obstacles that need to be removed in the RTComm framework and applications (if any)? What is the specific work that would be required in the related upstream projects (if any)?
One of the lessons learned with the RTComm is that there is indeed a user demand and the Telepathy ramifications have most of the elements to satisfy them. Maemo is a good customer of Telepathy and it makes sense to try out and experiment things here.
I think there is certainly demand, developers just don't/(well didn't I suppose is better) know what will come on the device so can't really do anything.
So yes, we have the SDKs now, but there's still stuff which hasn't been released, if you can say that there's nothing else related to the messengering system to come then people will see that it's worth putting the time into it.
In Fremantle the game hasn't changed much around these protocols discussed. The complementarity of -haze or -purple with the stock RTComm framework is the same.
The beta in OS2008 was useful to see not only that there was a user demand but also that the execution could not be done with Nokia alone (the protocols are many and the support of the original features is variable, while the user expectations are just as high than with the originals - supporting them officially is technically complex and also tricky business-wise). The question is whether the community alone can do it in Fremantle or there is anything the RTComm team needs to address or help with.
The OS2008 Instant Messaging Upgrades (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=14313) had mixed results, some positive and so... so-la-la (http://www.dict.cc/german-english/so+la+la.html). How would you do it better in Fremantle? How a community project could integrate these protocols as add-ons?
I think the Nokia response (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4032) to problems with the OS2008 Instant Messaging Upgrades was fairly "so-la-la". The project started to "go stale" after the Diablo upgrade, with crucial small failures accumulating over the months, and like everything else pre-Fremantle, it has been completely abandoned now.
I'm very sad that there's no official plans to integrate any of these telepathy / pidgin features into Fremantle.
I guess we can always try to get the Empathy client (http://live.gnome.org/Empathy) integrated into the Maemo framework. This integration would centre around the address book, the A/V streaming, and the notification system...
EDIT: Hey, it looks like they're already using Nokia technology, in the form of Mission Control (http://mission-control.sourceforge.net/), to do the contacts management. Maybe not so hard to make it all work, after all!
Empathy is still too basic to be any real good, but hey, RTComm beta was basic too.
benny1967
2009-05-14, 21:39
i really don't cary much for msn and stuff, but i loved having IRC in the telepathy framework. at least that should be considered. that and maybe telepathy-salut.
I think the Nokia response (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4032) to problems with the OS2008 Instant Messaging Upgrades was fairly "so-la-la". The project started to "go stale" after the Diablo upgrade, with crucial small failures accumulating over the months, and like everything else pre-Fremantle, it has been completely abandoned now.
Quoting myself in that bug report: As we can see with the history of this bug, it is better to leave to the community anything that is not part of the official product. Releases in the grey are problematic.
Specially the platform teams live most of the time in the future release compared to what users have. There are resources for maintenance but they focus on bugfixing the pre-installed/official packages.
See also that some of the answers in that bug come from a Collabora/upstream developer. They also need to focus in the bleeding edge, being less able to deal with maintenance. Still, I wonder if the Maemo community could have a more direct contact with the developers upstream without needing to knock Nokia's door (asking in practice to fix bugs that require to knock upstream's door).
I'm very sad that there's no official plans to integrate any of these telepathy / pidgin features into Fremantle.
Can you be more specific? Like sorting the features you would like to have best (like benny1967 is doing). I'm curious whether the priorities are the same or similar for everybody.
I guess we can always try to get the Empathy client (http://live.gnome.org/Empathy) integrated into the Maemo framework. This integration would centre around the address book, the A/V streaming, and the notification system...
EDIT: Hey, it looks like they're already using Nokia technology, in the form of Mission Control (http://mission-control.sourceforge.net/), to do the contacts management. Maybe not so hard to make it all work, after all!
Once you have a plan we can check with Mikhail Zabaluev from the RTComm team. He is a helpful developer that knows about this stuff, and of course about the evolution of the own RTComm framework.
Can you be more specific? Like sorting the features you would like to have best (like benny1967 is doing). I'm curious whether the priorities are the same or similar for everybody.
Well, if you're asking me to limit myself, we're already starting to have problems. The point of the telepathy framework is the ability to provide a wide variety of clients (http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/Components) to a single sign-in. So I would want the extra VoIP functionality provided with the Beta (Sofia-SIP), full Farsight (video/audio streaming) capability, plus the Haze (http://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/Telepathy) plugins (ICQ, MSN, AIM, etc), and of course, link local (I think it is called "salut" in Telepathy). You should be able to scan the local WiFi network and see other people in your "neighbourhood" on your chat service...
But just because I didn't mention one of the Telepathy-supported components doesn't mean it shouldn't be included. I guarantee there will be lots of people who would want the IRC plugin, "idle," included too.
So I would want the extra VoIP functionality provided with the Beta (Sofia-SIP)
That's was only in beta around the the time of Bora actually (released at GUADEC 2007). It was officially included in OS2008, and works remarkably well :-)
All the current beta adds are a few pre-configured provider-specific profiles, and this (http://rtcomm.garage.maemo.org/#use_sip) teaser:
TLS - Use TLS SIP transport (Not supported yet)
TCP via HTTP proxy - Use TCP via HTTP proxy (Not supported yet)
TLS via HTTP proxy - Use TLS via HTTP proxy (Not supported yet)
Regarding this, any news on whether Fremantle will support TLS transport and/or (dare I dream?) SRTP? If not, is it worth filing enhancement requests for those?
I thought the beta added extra VoIP providers in the Accounts section (probably without adding anything to underlying functionality). Or was this added to the stock RTComm?
I thought the beta added extra VoIP providers in the Accounts section (probably without adding anything to underlying functionality).
Yup, it just makes set up for those three providers (ekiga, fwd, sipphone) a little bit easier. The official rtcomm also works with those of course, you just have to configure it manually.
Well, if you're asking me to limit myself, we're already starting to have problems.
I'm not asking to limit yourself. I'm just reminding that time and energies are limited, and therefore priorities are good. Yes, you want everything. Where to start, though?
Note that we are not talking now about what to request to Nokia (that no matter how big company it is, it also has limited time and resources and needs prioritization). We are talking about a community project, where prioritization of tasks is even mor important since the contribution are usually scarce and hard to get.
Also, as you see putting the focus of discussion in specific features helps getting mor details and even somtimes little nice surprises about those features that you put on top of the list.
Think also that it's not entirely a matter of supporting protocols in the backend. The RTComm UI is well prepared to handle vis-a-vis communication, but when you say "IRC" most people think "chat room", and this is a different story in terms of UI. Again, it's good to get into details and priorities.
#1 priority, then, is to get telepathy-haze working. #2 priority is telepathy-salut. Benny1967 wants telepathy-idle.
The RTComm UI is well prepared to handle vis-a-vis communication, but when you say "IRC" most people think "chat room", and this is a different story in terms of UI.
I realise this is just an example, but to give credit where it's due the UI already handles XMPP chat rooms fine :-)
I use MSN day-to-day on the device, others might use one of the other messenger services. Having support for these, under the single application, is a major requirement.
Next down the list is the VoIP providers, which I use less often, but still use.
Next down the list is IRC, though there are actually better standalone clients.
And finally, but the most cool application/use of them all, and one which was very good at the last summit, is the link-local/Bonjour/ZeroConf/whatever-it's-now-called stuff.
benny1967
2009-05-15, 09:12
Re-reading my own post from yesterday evening and what's become of this thread, let me add a few things for clarification:
When I said "please consider -idle and -salut", I didn't necessarily mean "add it to Fremantle". I meant please make it available to the end user in a way that's easy to install. Getting what's left of RTComm Beta to the tablets is a mess and I want it to be easier next time. ;) If these features are not included in the OS (which doesn't matter much from my POV), they should at least be accessible from the application manager as "IRC support for Internet Chat" and "Link Local support for Internet Chat". And it should be clear to 3rd party developers if this will be driven by Nokia or a subcontractor or if somebody better start coding it now for Fremantle Extas, so that we don't have 4 projects working on the same goal.
When I said I'd be happy with IRC and Link Local and don't care for MSN and other vendor-specific protocols, it was only partly because of my bias towards open standards and the fact that I myself don't have an MSN (AIM/...) account. The main point is that with IRC and Link Local you can provide a reliable user experience. Proprietary protocols may change, plugins stop working and this may cause frustration for the end user, more support calls for Nokia and more work for whoever does the backend for the protocol.
UI-wise, I'm happy with how rtcomm beta handles IRC now. there's some small issues, but nothing serious that keeps me from using it.
EDIT: Oh, yes, and of course, everything that already is part of Diablo (without the rtcomm beta stuff) is absolutely essential... SIP/Google Talk with Jingle/XMPP - I didn't even check but if they're removed in Fremantle, it would really ruin my daily tablet experience. That's what I use heavily.
#1 priority, then, is to get telepathy-haze working.
Alright. Has anybody tried to combine telepathy-haze and Fremantle beta?
http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo5.0beta/free/t/
http://git.collabora.co.uk/?p=telepathy-haze.git;a=summary
Will Thompson is the upstream maintainer and he was active in the bug (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4032#c8) pointed qole above. Perhaps he can give a hand, or at least some advice?
That is for the backend. The RTComm frontend hasn't een published, but was there anything missing in Diablo that you want in Fremantle?
If someone has the skills and will to make telepathy-haze work in Fremantle please answer here or contact me. We might be able to help you getting things done.
The RTComm frontend hasn't een published, but was there anything missing in Diablo that you want in Fremantle?
Not volunteering as I'm quite happy with the open protocols, but since you asked: the front-end (osso-applet-presence, osso-statusbar-presence, osso-applet-accounts & osso-chat-ui in Diablo) is pretty much essential for anyone trying to do such work, so please consider releasing those packages at least as binaries. They're also missing from previous SDKs, but at least for those one could always test on-device.
This may be already happening: there is an rtcom-accounts-ui binary package in Fremantle beta (but it doesn't seem to work).
... lma, I think the offer of "help getting things done" might include some more access to closed components for a developer willing to step up to the plate here...
timsamoff
2009-06-25, 15:45
I know that Jablet (http://www.jablet.net/) has been dead for a while (mostly thanks -- or no thanks -- to RTComm development) and was created to work with the Jabber (http://www.jabber.org/") (XMPP) protocol. But, I wonder if Zerojay (http://talk.maemo.org/member.php?u=6566) could help in this area? (Since he's back and all.) ;)
Tim
I know that Jablet (http://www.jablet.net/) has been dead for a while (mostly thanks -- or not thanks -- to RTComm development) and was created to work with the Jabber (http://www.jabber.org/") (XMPP) protocol. But, I wonder if Zerojay (http://talk.maemo.org/member.php?u=6566) could help in this area? (Since he's back and all.) ;)
Tim
Wow, shocked anyone even remembers that. Hmm, XMPP server for IM again... could be interesting. I'll look into it.
... lma, I think the offer of "help getting things done" might include some more access to closed components for a developer willing to step up to the plate here...
Yes, we could consider a "Fremantle Star" treatment to someone working on bringing e.g. IRC and other protocols to end users. Preferrably extending the very same RTComm framework and user experience, making life easier to end users familiar with the pre-installed tools.
It would be good to know what Will Thomson and the rest of telepathy-haze maintainers think themselves about this.
Yes, we could consider a "Fremantle Star" treatment to someone working on bringing e.g. IRC and other protocols to end users. Preferrably extending the very same RTComm framework and user experience, making life easier to end users familiar with the pre-installed tools.
Right, sorry I misunderstood you...
It would be good to know what Will Thomson and the rest of telepathy-haze maintainers think themselves about this.
It may also be worthwhile pinging Miika Kuha and the other people behind http://productivity.garage.maemo.org/. IIRC at the time of last year's summit talk they had around 16K Nokia tablet users using a slightly patched pidgin for sametime support.
Pidgin + Sametime is in Diablo Extras, isn't it? It will be no surprise to see Pidgin in Fremantle as well, but the interesting approach (with all respects) is to use the same UI and framework for different kinds of protocols.
Pidgin + Sametime is in Diablo Extras, isn't it?
Yes, but telepathy-haze could also provide sametime support in rtcomm.
the interesting approach (with all respects) is to use the same UI and framework for different kinds of protocols.
Exactly, and perhaps more importantly a unified addressbook. The particular use case from the above garage page: "Created a plugin for invoking SIP call from the buddylist".
and perhaps more importantly a unified addressbook.
True, you should contact your contacts through the same contacts application. :)
timsamoff
2009-06-26, 18:20
True, you should contact your contacts through the same contacts application. :)
A joke maybe, but this has been a constant issue with most third-party apps that utilize "contacts" in some way or another... In fact, the Claws-Mail devs plainly will not use the current Maemo Contacts protocols (http://www.thewildbeast.co.uk/claws-mail/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1228) because of philosophical differences.
Of course, since I'm not a dev, I don't completely understand, but I would like to see Maemo Contacts be something that was easy for everyone to utilize.
Tim
A joke maybe, but this has been a constant issue with most third-party apps that utilize "contacts" in some way or another... In fact, the Claws-Mail devs plainly will not use the current Maemo Contacts protocols (http://www.thewildbeast.co.uk/claws-mail/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1228) because of philosophical differences.
And that is why I won't use Claws-Mail. :)
timsamoff
2009-06-27, 14:23
And that is why I won't use Claws-Mail. :)
I've tried to use Modest. I really have. But Claws works so much better for my use-case. And, it's a shame that this bug (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2557) is the only major issue that's blocking me from using it full-time.
Tim
A joke maybe, but this has been a constant issue with most third-party apps that utilize "contacts" in some way or another...
I'm not a developer either but the API is there to have your own contacts integrated isn't it.
http://maemo.org/maemo_release_documentation/maemo4.1.x/node8.html#SECTION00870000000000000000
And in Fremantle:
http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/beta/libosso-abook/
There is even a functionality for merging contacts:
http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/beta/libosso-abook/libosso-abook-osso-abook-merge.html
timsamoff
2009-06-30, 15:00
For the Claws people, this:
http://maemo.org/maemo_release_documentation/maemo4.1.x/node8.html#SECTION00872000000000000000
...seems to be the hangup for some reason. I don't know why. And, I don't know if it's an issue for other devs.
Tim
In fact, the Claws-Mail devs plainly will not use the current Maemo Contacts protocols (http://www.thewildbeast.co.uk/claws-mail/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1228) because of philosophical differences.
I can see why (as an independent project targetting many (http://www.claws-mail.org/downloads.php?section=downloads) platforms other than Maemo) introducing dependencies on evolution and osso libs would not seem desirable. It does have a plugin architecture though so I wonder whether the integration could happen with a third-party add-on.
I've tried to use Modest. I really have. But Claws works so much better for my use-case.
Same here, but Modest keeps dangling the promise of full LEMONADE support (never mind that the final Diablo release shipped with IDLE disabled) which is kinda hard to ignore :-(
Well, after about a day of hacking at telepathy-haze on my tablet, I succeeded in getting the Facebook plugin to work. I did no programming whatsoever and it works with a few small bugs. You can find my thread about my progress here: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=30843
Looks like I might be more helpful here than I thought. I've gotten in touch with the RTCOMM guys including Will, the telepathy-haze developer and they will help me finish it off when they have some time to do so. I'm pretty sure that whatever we work out to make Facebook work 100% properly can only help adding it and anything else to both Fremantle and Diablo.
fwiw the Telepathy maintainers are digging also in the Fremantle code to make it work with Telepathy-*. Good that you are in sync with them.
In the meantime, I'm setting up development environments for both Maemo 4 and 5 and I'm going to try out several more protocol plugins for Pidgin and see how many of them will work out on Diablo and can at least be tested in Fremantle. Twitter, I'm looking at you.
fwiw the Telepathy maintainers are digging also in the Fremantle code to make it work with Telepathy-*. Good that you are in sync with them.
Now THAT is excellent news!
I'm so glad the upstream project devs are doing the work here... Having used Empathy on the tablet, it really seems to me that they aren't far away from getting things integrated...
I know the Collabora guys will be releasing a sort of RTCOMM for Fremantle in the future.
I know the Collabora guys will be releasing a sort of RTCOMM for Fremantle in the future.
Sweet. I hope it isn't too long after the Fremantle devices appear... Whenever that might be.
munky261
2009-08-18, 19:20
Regarding claws, The interface is way to busy for such a small screen.
I hope, at the very least, someone puts Pidgin into the Fremantle repositories, so we will have some way to get a variety of IM protocols, even if RTCOMM doesn't support them...
...Anyone?
Have you forgotten my comment 36 (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=312593&postcount=36)? :)
These guys use to deliver.
Thanks Quim. But Pidgin would still be nice, though...
In an office somewhere in the vast, vast world... a man by the name of Will sits at his desk. He is hovering over an object in his hand bearing the name of "N900". As he looks at his screen, he sees incoming messages from Facebook friends.
As of a few minutes ago, Collabora just got Facebook chat working through the built-in contacts app in Fremantle. :D
ColdFusion
2009-08-27, 12:59
Is it going to have Facebook notifications, updates and messages also?
Is it going to have Facebook notifications, updates and messages also?
What will probably happen is that sometime around or after the N900 launch, Collabora will release their version of RTCOMM for the N900 and if all goes well, Facebook will be a part of that.
I don't know exactly what they will include... but I can tell you that Facebook notifications are received by the software they are using. I'm not sure if they will actually implement it, but I don't see why not. :)
In an office somewhere in the vast, vast world... a man by the name of Will sits at his desk. He is hovering over an object in his hand bearing the name of "N900". As he looks at his screen, he sees incoming messages from Facebook friends.
As of a few minutes ago, Collabora just got Facebook chat working through the built-in contacts app in Fremantle. :D
This makes it sound a lot more dramatic than it actually was. :)
As Quim said, we (well, mainly Jonny Lamb) have been working on packaging up the Telepathy connection managers that don't ship with Fremantle, complete with configuration UIs. It's actually pretty straightforward, thanks to the design of Telepathy and the Fremantle user interfaces built upon it. So we should be able to release support for all your favourite other protocols pretty soon after the device is out, fully integrated with the rest of the system.
I'm not sure if the initial release will support Facebook notifications, though: this will probably need a bit more work, because of differences between how telepathy-haze (the libpurple-based CM through which zerojay and we got Facebook Chat working on Diablo and Fremantle respectively) and Pidgin operate.
This makes it sound a lot more dramatic than it actually was. :)
Sorry, I'm a writer. ;)
Are you going to release everything as a big blob, or are we going to start seeing stuff appearing in Extras-Devel (http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/) or Extras-Testing (http://repository.maemo.org/extras-testing/pool/fremantle/free/)?
christexaport
2009-12-13, 12:13
has any progress on Facebook chat been made? I'd like to begin using it on the N900. Is this still a work in progress, or something I could try today?
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