View Full Version : Member levels, let's decide
GeneralAntilles
2009-04-08, 16:50
Discussion (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27465) on the member levels has settled enough that I think it's time to put it to a vote.
We had three primary proposals that came out on top:
A list of release codenames to indicate post level:
Mistral - 0-24 posts
Scirocco - 25-99 posts
Gregale - 100-249 posts
Bora - 250-499 posts
Chinook - 500-999 posts
Diablo - 1000-1999 posts
Fremantle - 2000-3999 posts
Harmattan - 4000-* posts
A maemo.org-style header:
http://wiki.maemo.org/images/5/55/Wide_person_template.png
No member level, no karma.
The voting will "close" in 7 days on April 15th, 2009 (taxes, anybody?). The results are non-binding and a suggestion only (Reggie is free to do as he sees fit).
I like the release names, just change the values for the last 3 a bit:
# Diablo - 1000-2499 posts
# Fremantle - 2500-4999 posts
# Harmattan - 5000-* posts
That makes more sense.
GeneralAntilles
2009-04-08, 17:31
That makes more sense.
Well, my goal was to try to to keep the interval from growing too quickly when we start adding levels later on.
you forget the "no change" option
Well, my goal was to try to to keep the interval from growing too quickly when we start adding levels later on.
Since it is an asymptotic function, that's hard to do ;)
But if you don't want it to grow too quickly, you have to factor it into the beginning and not just depress the end.
8 levels Just thinking is the levels not too much?
GeneralAntilles
2009-04-08, 17:44
you forget the "no change" option
There are obvious issues with the current system and it needs to be changed one way or another.
you forget the "no change" option
I'm totally for no change. The energy consumed on this "irc - who's the @op" topic should be channeled to something more productive :-) no, I'm not trolling.
Whatever levels you set up, and if you are on the highest one, doesn't mean you know more than somebody who just registered.
GeneralAntilles
2009-04-08, 17:55
I'm totally for no change. The energy consumed on this "irc - who's the @op" topic should be channeled to something more productive :-) no, I'm not trolling.
You may not be trolling, but you are missing the point.
Whatever levels you set up, and if you are on the highest one, doesn't mean you know more than somebody who just registered.
This is exactly the point. The current system suggests that there's some sort of meaningful seniority implied by the member levels, which there isn't, so the goal is to put together a system that doesn't imply anything. Thus, the codenames.
This is exactly the point. The current system suggests that there's some sort of meaningful seniority implied by the member levels, which there isn't, so the goal is to put together a system that doesn't imply anything. Thus, the codenames.
If that's the goal, why the need for codenames in the first place? Just list post counts themselves, or number of hairs on one's head.
GeneralAntilles
2009-04-08, 18:28
If that's the goal, why the need for codenames in the first place? Just list post counts themselves, or number of hairs on one's head.
Because the member levels are still fun, and there are people that like them.
Anyway, if that's what you want, then you want option 3 in the poll.
i choose maemo style. So, I'm a Gregale. Yay!
Because the member levels are still fun, and there are people that like them.
Anyway, if that's what you want, then you want option 3 in the poll.
I didn't say it's what I want, I just wanted to know what this so-called "goal" was that you were referring to. Now I see, it's fun. I'm all for that.
Plus, if we went the hairs-on-head route, we might find ourselves endlessly debating sorites paradoxes, and that's not good for anyone! (and it's especially bad for that unfortunate Barber who shaves all and only men who do not shave themselves).
How about peer review? members could give other members votes for troll, jedi, helpful, spectator, etc. Earn your geek cred in the eyes of your peers.
There are obvious issues with the current system and it needs to be changed one way or another.
People should still be allowed to vote for no change, no matter how "wrong" it is.
I'm not sure that being a geek would equate to cred under a peer review system.*
(*Yet another lesson I have learned from reading The Life and History of General Antilles.)
GeneralAntilles
2009-04-08, 19:03
How about peer review? members could give other members votes for troll, jedi, helpful, spectator, etc. Earn your geek cred in the eyes of your peers.
To an extent, we already have this. See the hearts and thumbs on qgil's profile (http://maemo.org/profile/view/qgil/).
jmjanzen
2009-04-08, 19:07
Discussion (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27465) on the member levels has settled enough that I think it's time to put it to a vote.
you forget the "no change" option
i agree with GA on this one. consider the previous discussion like the primaries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_election) and this is the actual election. if you don't like any of these 3 choices, then either you missed out on the original thread or there just aren't a whole lot of people that agree with you.
so... if you think the system should remain unchanged, please read the original discussion, and vote here for "the lesser" (lessest?) of these 3 "evils". :) GA's making the assumption that, if a "no change" option was present, not many people would vote for it anyway, so consider this a chance to make your vote count instead of getting wasted on an unpopular choice.
the maemo.org setup looks good to me, except (i never use the maemo.org forum, so...) what determines your star rating?
LABAUDIO
2009-04-08, 19:17
why level...
this poll look conspiracy lol
but seriously...level help for categorized how you active...so i can post a noob frenchy post everyday and be a dump...or inverse...
In fact, i never like LEVEL or any others distinction on forums...specialy if this forum talk about freedome anywhere...
Death to all discrimination (yes, make a level side always made some issue)
Why not everybody be Harmattan Supper Duper and be considered...
this is just my free opinion from Quebec.
Woot
GeneralAntilles
2009-04-08, 19:25
the maemo.org setup looks good to me, except (i never use the maemo.org forum, so...) what determines your star rating?
The exact metrics used in the maemo.org profile would have to be determined later. Don't read into what's in the mockup as far as user ratings too much (karma, stars, thumbs, etc.).
TrueJournals
2009-04-08, 20:47
Definitely a maemo.org-style header. It seems like the whole community wants to move towards maemo.org being a central "hub" for everything tablet related. I definitely think that's moving in the right direction, and ignoring user information there when the switch to talk.maemo.org is made would be a huge mistake.
penguinbait
2009-04-08, 21:04
I am for leaving it just as it is, but perhap moving the Senior level post count up so it means more? And increase the PM quotas on lower levels.
I see no reason for 8 levels of madness.
if it must change!
EVERYONE on this page (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/memberlist.php?order=DESC&sort=posts&pp=30) should be TOP level , with NO higher levels
So to me around 1000 posts would indicate a Senior level.
GeneralAntilles
2009-04-08, 21:09
I am for leaving it just as it is, but perhap moving the Senior level post count up so it means more?
I guess you missed the earlier thread (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27465). The idea here is to have meaningless member levels. The problem with having Junior and Senior members has been illustrated quite well when new members assume that the Senior title means something when it doesn't. Avoiding this was the whole impetuous of my proposal to change it.
I like the maemo.org style header, but I still think there should be some kind of talk.maemo.org-specific thing on there, something that is calculated from posts and thanks within the forum*. Perhaps a combination of the first two suggestions?
I still think that if you hit a certain level you can choose from a set of oddball names, like "Sardine", "Elephanta" or even a custom one.
*Disclosure: I'm proud of my post:thanks ratio on ITT, so I am biased here.
i agree with GA on this one. consider the previous discussion like the primaries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_election) and this is the actual election. if you don't like any of these 3 choices, then either you missed out on the original thread or there just aren't a whole lot of people that agree with you.
I know the earlier thread (which was only discussing another options). This is more of a matter of principle. Now the decision has already been made that there will be a change, without any polls. If there was option for no change we would find out if there is support for current system.
But I don't really care about member levels, so I let them choose who do care.
I guess you missed the earlier thread (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27465). The idea here is to have meaningless member levels. The problem with having Junior and Senior members has been illustrated quite well when new members assume that the Senior title means something when it doesn't. Avoiding this was the whole impetuous of my proposal to change it.
IMHO then, they should be truly meaningless or not there at all. Unfortunately anything with an ascending hierarchy will be viewed by some as some sort of rank or competitive badge of honor. Simply using the post count may do this as well.
This in turn may lead to meaningless short posts like " I agree completely." which add nothing to the thread but do add to a newbies post count.
As much as I have kicked and moaned lately about this forum becoming more like maemo.org (from now on known to me as m/o), if we are going to do it, it might as well be whole hog.
I voted for the m/o style header because it does look more polished and is more unique among other forum styles.
Another possibility is to make more user customizations available to a member based on time and/or post count. Each member can decide how or if they want to show their colors.
After so long and/or so many posts a member can upload their own avatar. Below that they can only choose from 10 or fifteen forum provided ones. At another time and/or grade a member might be able to use his own title. Below that they are given 1 of 10 random ones. (< These random titles could change at random intervals as well, to to add some interest and fun.) At yet another level, features like the infamous thread tags are made available... and so on.
This is new to me. Most publicly viewed forums that I've dealt with are privately owned. What the owner wants, the owner can get. This forum from what I gather, will be something different.
GeneralAntilles
2009-04-08, 22:19
Now the decision has already been made that there will be a change, without any polls.
Hardly, the results of this poll are only a suggestion.
penguinbait
2009-04-08, 22:24
I guess you missed the earlier thread (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27465). The idea here is to have meaningless member levels. The problem with having Junior and Senior members has been illustrated quite well when new members assume that the Senior title means something when it doesn't. Avoiding this was the whole impetuous of my proposal to change it.
I know thats why said move the senior post count up to 1000 so it will then mean something. I swear to God, I think sometimes I am speaking another language?
GeneralAntilles
2009-04-08, 22:33
IMHO then, they should be truly meaningless or not there at all. Unfortunately anything with an ascending hierarchy will be viewed by some as some sort of rank or competitive badge of honor. Simply using the post count may do this as well.
This in turn may lead to meaningless short posts like " I agree completely." which add nothing to the thread but do add to a newbies post count.
How does the current system not lead to this? We already have member levels, karma, and post counts to whore for. A new member level system wont change that.
As much as I have kicked and moaned lately about this forum becoming more like maemo.org . . .
The reasoning behind which I still can't fathom.
. . . (from now on known to me as m/o)
URLs are generally abbreviated with fullstops. So you're looking for "m.o".
After so long and/or so many posts a member can upload their own avatar. Below that they can only choose from 10 or fifteen forum provided ones.
What's the advantage here? More post-count whoring? If new members are abusing avatars, that's something to deal with on a case-by-case basis.
At another time and/or grade a member might be able to use his own title.
An idea that's been proposed a couple times. I'd like to see it myself, but I'm not sure how high general support is. We may need a plugin for it.
Below that they are given 1 of 10 random ones. (< These random titles could change at random intervals as well, to to add some interest and fun.)
Random is just spam (much like the tag system as it currently stands).
This is new to me. Most publicly viewed forums that I've dealt with are privately owned. What the owner wants, the owner can get. This forum from what I gather, will be something different.
Again, haven't we reviewed this fact previously? Reggie is still in charge of Talk. . . .
GeneralAntilles
2009-04-08, 22:35
I know thats why said move the senior post count up to 1000 so it will then mean something.
Perhaps I should have made it more explicit: 100 posts or 1000, post counts don't tell you much about a user or their experience, so attaching meaningful ranking systems to a meaningless number is pointless.
I swear to God, I think sometimes I am speaking another language?
I don't know, do you?
Forbidding the option of "no change" is an instance of those presently in power controlling the choices of those not in power.
I would like the lowest status rating, whatever the system.
But I would still prefer to vote "no change". I am not interested in someone's argument that that isn't logical. That would be my choice, not theirs.
GeneralAntilles
2009-04-08, 22:53
Forbidding the option of "no change" is an instance of those presently in power controlling the choices of those not in power.
Hey, look, I forgot to include it, and there's no way to edit polls. I realize everything is a conspiracy to you, so I wont try to shatter your tinfoil hat fantasy land, but so it goes.
penguinbait
2009-04-08, 22:55
Perhaps I should have made it more explicit: 100 posts or 1000, post counts don't tell you much about a user or their experience, so attaching meaningful ranking systems to a meaningless number is pointless.
I don't know, do you?
Like I said:
EVERYONE on this page (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/memberlist.php?order=DESC&sort=posts&pp=30) should be TOP level , with NO higher levels
So to me around 1000 posts would indicate a Senior level.
So again like I said, you look at that list of people and tell me that 1000 posts doesn't tell you that they are a Senior member? I see no reason to have Jedi Knights
How does the current system not lead to this? We already have member levels, karma, and post counts to whore for. A new member level system wont change that.
The reasoning behind which I still can't fathom.
URLs are generally abbreviated with fullstops. So you're looking for "m.o".
What's the advantage here? More post-count whoring? If new members are abusing avatars, that's something to deal with on a case-by-case basis.
An idea that's been proposed a couple times. I'd like to see it myself, but I'm not sure how high general support is. We may need a plugin for it.
Random is just spam (much like the tag system as it currently stands).
Again, haven't we reviewed this fact previously? Reggie is still in charge of Talk. . . .
I think I'm with the PB on that language thing...
Yeesh! I don't have the inclination to dissect your posts and regardless of what I have said posted in the past, you still can't "fathom" my point of view regarding the haphazard way in which m/o, m.o (either way I would still pronounce it like the leader of the three stooges :) ) has been managed and presented in the past.
I imagine that the the next wave of new users are not going to be as receptive to IRC, Mailing lists, Bugzilla, and the like as you and others are.
And yet, to me it seems like attempts are being made to make this forum into something that the former group is more comfortable with.
Before someone pops in to tell me that this is not the topic of the thread... I'll remind you I did vote and was only stating a constructive opinion about that topic when my post was sliced and diced. :)
I truly wish you good luck with all your efforts GA. But, my money is on the next device being a huge success and as such, it just may need another enthusiast to come along to start a friendly forum that new users can relate to. C'ya around. :)
GeneralAntilles
2009-04-09, 00:24
Yeesh! I don't have the inclination to dissect your posts and regardless of what I have said in the past, you still can't "fathom" my point of view
It seems it really does come back to that whole listening thing. :rolleyes:
GeneralAntilles
2009-04-09, 00:26
So again like I said, you look at that list of people and tell me that 1000 posts doesn't tell you that they are a Senior member?
There's a question that nobody can safely answer except by agreeing with you.
It seems it really does come back to that whole listening thing. :rolleyes:
Excuse me for being stupid again... It should have been "posted in the past". :confused:
BTW, more and more of us stupid people are comming. You're pro'ly gonna need a helper or two if ya wanna keep pointing it out. :)
TrueJournals
2009-04-09, 02:07
qole has the right idea here. Using either the posts:thanks ratio, or m.o karma will lead to more useful posts, and less "I agree" posts, because the rating will mean something. If we have a rank, people will think it means something regardless of whether it does or not, so why not actually have it mean something?
As for the "over 1,000 posts means something" issue... I'd just like to point out that munky261 is on that list, and... well... this post by bongo (http://internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=270028&postcount=334) pretty much sums up why that means nothing (in context (http://internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=270028&highlight=posts#post270028)) (No offense meant, munky!) Posts do not equate to experience. "Thanks" and karma equate to experience. Can we come up with some equation that factors in: (posts optional, because... as I said, they're useless on their own, but useful compared to other items), thanks given, thanks received, m.o karma? It seems that some kind of rating that factors in all this information would be the ideal solution, and create meaningful ranks, which, IMO, should be the goal here.
JayOnThaBeat
2009-04-09, 02:52
You may not be trolling, but you are missing the point.
This is exactly the point. The current system suggests that there's some sort of meaningful seniority implied by the member levels, which there isn't, so the goal is to put together a system that doesn't imply anything. Thus, the codenames.
i agree. take me for instance. i've been a member for a very short time, but i have posted A LOT (that omega thread was great ;)) because i like to add my two cents.
but as you may or may not know, I am still a MAJOR NOOB at anything linux/tablet related, and i'm eerily close to being a "Senior Member," which will be a major misrepresentation of my position here.
i don't know about the thanks/karma rating system either, i've got 14 thanks, and none of them were from me saying anything that *actually* helped anyone. (feel free to thank me!)
[i like "Prolific Poster"]
timsamoff
2009-04-09, 04:02
Forbidding the option of "no change" is an instance of those presently in power controlling the choices of those not in power.
I'd just like to interject that there's not really anyone "in power" or "not in power." There are just some people who have stronger opinions (and maybe louder voices) and those who don't. Some would call this a detriment of open communities and others would call it a benefit. If enough people call for "no change," then that's where it will stand.
Tim
I voted for maemo.org style headers, because cryptic release names would be meaningless to many people.
But I don't like the use of stars in the header. Stars are associated with a quality rating, and a member with a low post count would appear as a lowly-rated user (aka troll).
Some other graphics should be used instead of the stars. The Ubuntu forum, e.g., uses coffee beans.
benny1967
2009-04-09, 06:19
Do you like the Emperor's new clothes?
o Yes! Especially the shirt.
o Yes! Especially the shorts.
o Yes! Especially the flip-flops.
Forgive me if I don't feel invited to offer my opinion here. - This time it's a non-problem and the outcome isn't of much relevance, so I don't feel betrayed because I can't vote. I only hope we will not see more of this kind with issues that really matter.
so I don't feel betrayed because I can't vote
Why can't you vote?
honestly i can't understand why not make tree levels instead of 8 only to scare new comers who never head gregal mistral and all that stuff.
My suggestions make three levels 1)Newbie for anyone just sign up 2) senior member people who are more older in the forum posted an amount of posts able to help others and posted an amount of useful post as suggested by PB , 3 Developers those who have posted an amount of useful post and with developing skills, to make this easier and well explained in a sticky post above.
But I don't like the use of stars in the header. Stars are associated with a quality rating, and a member with a low post count would appear as a lowly-rated user (aka troll).
The stars in the example GeneralAntilles posted are an example from downloads ranking - i.e. it is showing the rating given by that user to the application in question.
One would imagine that on the forum it would be replaced with useful informaiton like post & thanks count (and maybe their ratio).
allnameswereout
2009-04-09, 14:00
I'd think there are better options available than the current 3 solutions but then figured the current situation makes sense. You can have someone who just signed up being 'new user' or 'apprentice' or something and beyond that you are a member (for what that is worth). This happens after a period of time and a number of posts (e.g. 1 month, 50 posts, when both are complied its changed). This way you know who is new and who is not. And that is it. There is no further use. You know the people who are around because you are not new. You can click on their profile to figure out how new they are and such, or read the forums from pastto get impressipn.
Furthermore, one could assign their own characteristics in their title. For example some folks are UNIX experts, other folks are developers (of what?), or Maemo.org council. This could be reflected in their title. Now it is reflected in their signatures; so right now the signatures represent the title giving the user complete control over their title. Also OK, but that leaves the current member levels useless.
I don't think the codenames of Maemo releases should be used because its confusing. They refer to something else. If I am a 'Diablo' while I run Bora what does that make me? Pfff. Maybe nice for some folks to get fond memories of their past Maemo experiences but otherwise not useful. Except for something as subjective as 'fun' or 'humor' but people have no control over that.
Bottomline: signature is for humor, fun, title, and any ******** you can imagine. Tags are not. Titles are not. They are informative and accurate instead.
When the move from iTT to maemo.org was announced, it was said that there would be no change. The move hasn't even happened yet and now there is a poll in which the only question is what kind of change is going to be done to the post headers and "no change" is not even an option...
When the move from iTT to maemo.org was announced, it was said that there would be no change.
...apart from the theme. The post header is part of the theme.
The move hasn't even happened yet and now there is a poll in which the only question is what kind of change is going to be done to the post headers and "no change" is not even an option...
And GeneralAntilles said he forgot.
...apart from the theme. The post header is part of the theme.
And GeneralAntilles said he forgot.A maemo.org karma score in the post header is content, not theme. Maemo codes as level names are content, not theme. A new sub-forum called "maemo.org" is content, and new stickies replete with references to maemo.org, are content, not theme.
Sorry sir, but the several efforts taken towards the maemoization of itt have been recognized. Do not object that you are judged by what you do rather than what you say.
A maemo.org karma score in the post header is content, not theme. Maemo codes as level names are content, not theme.
I so rarely look at it as I consider the content the messages which are posted by the vibrant community here. However, happy to disagree.
A new sub-forum called "maemo.org" is content, and new stickies replete with references to maemo.org, are content, not theme.
Perhaps. But long before the tmo move was thought of, the ITT wiki was being decommissioned in favour of the maemo.org one, and the "maemo.org" forum replaces the previous "[Site] Comments/suggestions".
Sorry sir, but the several efforts taken towards the maemoization of itt have been recognized. Do not object that you are judged by what you do rather than what you say.
Are you objecting to the fact that (in your eyes, at least) the promise of "no change (except URL & theme, and adding moderators)" has not been kept (i.e. this is a semantic argument)? Or that the perceived changes outside of that scope are sub-optimal/dangerous/damaging?
allnameswereout
2009-04-10, 09:59
A maemo.org karma score in the post header is content, not theme. Maemo codes as level names are content, not theme. A new sub-forum called "maemo.org" is content, and new stickies replete with references to maemo.org, are content, not theme.Static content.
Content of no informative reference is layout/cosmetic/theme. That doesn't necessarily devalue what it is though. You can have a beautiful homepage about nothing, or an ugly bulk of information. Usually the synergy of aesthetics and information is what makes something attractive.
jmjanzen
2009-04-16, 20:56
you forget the "no change" option
There are obvious issues with the current system and it needs to be changed one way or another.
Hey, look, I forgot to include it, and there's no way to edit polls.
1. You initially defended your decision to leave "no change" off the list, even though it was an accident? :confused: Everyone makes mistakes sometimes.... :)
2. Aren't you a moderator? Couldn't you close this thread and/or create a new one with 4 options?
2. Aren't you a moderator? Couldn't you close this thread and/or create a new one with 4 options?
The trouble, in general, with replacing or altering a poll with substantial participation is that many of the voters who already voted will not vote again in the new or modified poll. You could just carry the tally over, but then some of them would presumably have voted differently had the new option been included.
So the options are to throw out data, or to incur inaccuracy. Neither is real good, although I think most would agree the former (i.e. close this poll and start a new one) is clearly better.
A better option would be to start a separate poll for whether they should be changed or not. You, or anyone else wishing for no-change, could certainly do this at any time, and I'd expect the two choices ("change/no-change" and "given change, which change")to be rather orthogonal, under which reasonable extrapolations are possible
GeneralAntilles
2009-04-17, 01:11
1. You initially defended your decision to leave "no change" off the list, even though it was an accident? :confused:
Despite it being a mistake, I still believe the results of that mistake weren't undesirable. The current setup is a problem and it has to be changed. Popular opinion gets a say in this change, but no matter how contrarian people want to be (and based on my experience with some of those posters, contrarian is exactly what it is) it can't stay how it is.
2. Aren't you a moderator? Couldn't you close this thread and/or create a new one with 4 options?
I am not a moderator.
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