Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation [Archive] - maemo.org

Capt'n Corrupt

2009-04-09, 02:23

There's one thing of interest, that's likely known by those following the progress of Maemo 5 closely: It's the aweful main menu. This seems to be a perfect replica of what is on the tablets currently and can be represented much better.

Canola-style menus

In their current form, the main application menu and sub-menus are small, difficult to navigate with the finger, and (IMO) ugly. They are much better suited for a mouse. Canola's settings menu on the other hand is perfect for a mobile device and offers the SAME functionality in a much sleeker and more usable way. The Canola-style menus are large, finger friendly, attractive, can comfortably hold MANY sub menus, and are extremely intuitive. Moreover, based on the compatibility of function, it shouldn't be too hard to mimic this behaviour with Hildon Menus.

While there has been progress on usability, it seems that much of the usability is still being designed by developers! I think this task would be better suited by people that specialize in UIs and artists.

Of course, I'm at this point appealing to the more design-centered individuals on the forum. What do you think? Think you have what it takes to improve the current UI? It may be a bit late, but perhaps if we outline and vote on some ideas, make a wiki-page, we may be able to influence the usability of the upcoming tablet!

YARR!
}:^)~

captn.corrupt.DBus

Bundyo

2009-04-09, 05:08

File chooser - you can see only three items at a time. Maybe the thumb usability of it is high, but it is not very usable...

pycage

2009-04-09, 06:03

The file chooser should occupy the full screen, IMHO.

flareup

2009-04-09, 08:57

page 27 - the tablet has a hardware menu button.

could this be a d-pad?

fms

2009-04-09, 09:31

page 27 - the tablet has a hardware menu button. could this be a d-pad?
Look at your tablet. Do you see the difference between the menu button and the d-pad? =)

benny1967

2009-04-09, 09:43

page 27 - the tablet has a hardware menu button.

i was happy to read in plain english about the menu button. i was worried they'd drop this usefull feature in the current thumb frenzy.

fast1

2009-04-09, 09:48

how do you purchase the maemo 5?

Bundyo

2009-04-09, 09:50

Its mostly free :D

yerga

2009-04-09, 10:53

The file chooser should occupy the full screen, IMHO.

And how could you cancel it? :P

Capt'n Corrupt

2009-04-09, 11:41

I think the file chooser, can learn a lot from the way Canola structures its menus:

Screenshot:
http://openbossa.indt.org.br/canola/images/screenshots/settings_textfield.png
Video: (pay attention to menu)
http://openbossa.indt.org.br/canola/videos/canola_settings.mp4

For those that haven't used Canola, this is how it works:
1) You click to open the menu, and one 'card' slides out.
2) If you click an item on that card, another card slides over the first. It doesn't cover it completely, but leaves the left most edge exposed.
3) To exit out of the current card, just click the screen outside of the card and it slides away.
4) If the menu has more items than screen, you can slide the options on the card via inertial scrolling.

This system should work well for:
1) FILE CHOOSERS
2) MAIN PROGRAM MENUS
3) POP-UP DIALOGS

Not only is it hyper functional, but finger-friendly, and extremely good looking all at the same time (with or without the animation).

YARR!
}:^)~

Clapt'n

Capt'n Corrupt

2009-04-09, 12:17

And how could you cancel it? :P

In this case, it could be cancelled with an exit button on the chooser itself.

Of course, I would prefer a Canola-style file-chooser.

YARR!
}:^)~

PyCorrupt

YoDude

2009-04-09, 12:44

I think the file chooser, can learn a lot from the way Canola structures its menus...

...YARR!
}:^)~

Clapton

I was thinkin' that was one of the points to the Canola exercise in the first place... To help Nokia develop a finger friendly way to navigate a small touch screened, robust operating system without the need for a keyboard.

Right now Maemo is "Internet in your pocket". I'm now thinkin' its future will pro'ly be "Internet on the back of a car/airplane seat, on the wall just inside the doorway where a light switch used to be, at mega multi-station kiosks in travel terminals, on the outside wall next to the door of a main street business, etc". :)

Capt'n Corrupt

2009-04-09, 13:37

I was thinkin' that was one of the points to the Canola exercise in the first place... To help Nokia develop a finger friendly way to navigate a small touch screened, robust operating system without the need for a keyboard.

It certainly seems that way, and I think I recall reading something similar. Interestingly enough, if you look at the new Fremantle application launcher, it looks more than a little similar to the Canola style launcher, so it seems that the project has influence! Of course, there are a few things that are still lacking from the fremantle demo, but it's still early...

I really like the canola interface, though there is one thing that gripes me about it: Selecting music with the inertial scrolling lists. I would rather that each song in the list had a 'play' button, OR there was a safe area that I could scroll with my finger without worrying about selecting songs. As it currently stands right now, if I have a song playing, and I'm scrolling through the list, sometimes my scroll is registered as a click, and I select a song I didn't want to play.

If this type of functionality was to be reproduced in the new Maemo UI, I would hope that it would be fixed to prevent false selections (which can be highly annoying, and time wasting). A simple selection button for each item on the list or a safe-finger-scrolling-area would work.

Right now Maemo is "Internet in your pocket". I'm now thinkin' its future will pro'ly be "Internet on the back of a car/airplane seat, on the wall just inside the doorway where a light switch used to be, at mega multi-station kiosks in travel terminals, on the outside wall next to the door of a main street business, etc". :)

This is a VERY interesting idea, that can open up an entirely new market! Wow, what great insight. You are my new hero!

YARR!
}:^)~

Gran Capitarino

eiffel

2009-04-09, 13:37

Kate Alhoa's makes it clear that the screen on the new devices is going to be 800x480 for sure.

The stylus keyboard is gone! Finger-touch and physical keyboard only.

GPS, vibration and accelerometer are included. We assumed this from the SDK, but these things weren't mentioned at last year's Maemo summit.

I found it interesting that QT applications will not just be compatible across S60/Maemo/PC but also Windows Mobile! No mention of Android or iPhone, but as Kate stresses they're not interested in low-resolution displays.

Regards,
Roger

lcuk

2009-04-09, 14:40

question: does the hardware escape button cancel these dialogs?

fms

2009-04-09, 14:45

question: does the hardware escape button cancel these dialogs?
Who told you you are going to have that escape button in RX-51? :)

lcuk

2009-04-09, 14:59

Who told you you are going to have that escape button in RX-51? :)

o_O
you are right of course
I saw in kates excellent overview that there is a hardware menu button.
It seems odd to keep one of those but remove the arguably more important escape key :P
but lets not get into another d-pad issue.
kates summary goes over a lot of things and answers quite a number of questions I have been building about the overall lay of the land.

Capt'n Corrupt

2009-04-09, 15:01

tso

2009-04-09, 17:35

never been sure i liked the canola interface. to much sparkle for to little flame imo.

daperl

2009-04-09, 18:10

jolouis

2009-04-09, 18:29

This is one of the wonderful benefits of a cross-platform UI like QT with many language bindings, an API for every OS feature a program could want, and written in a ubiquitous language (C++, I believe). This should greatly ease development for this platform, because you can develop natively regardless of your OS development environment -- assuming you exclusively use the QT API or your own portable libs (using OS specific libs in your app will obviously break compatibility). Put another way, it makes porting an app VERY simple task (a re-compile).

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't that one of the big appeals that Maemo and the tablets have always had; the only difference was anything that was GNOME/GTK, instead of now anything that's QT, so I don't really see how this a "Game changing" development or is going to make native app building any better or worse in theory... I haven't used both extensively, but the impression I get is that QT is much more mature and broad than GTK, but that really doesn't change the fact that both provide the idea of "you can develop natively regardless of your IS devel environment and port anywhere else with a re-compile"; after all, a huge chunk of the apps we have on the tablets right now are simply native Linux apps that have been recompiled for ARM using the Maemo SDK...
That aside, I'm still very much looking forward to the next device and software, and I'm sure there are lots of great changes that are happening, but I don't see your point of QT suddenly changing everything in terms of development... maybe in the long term, but based on the way Nokia treats things I can still imagine lots of odd and unexpected roadblocks to be crossed before we really start to see any major benefits to development processes; I'd argue that things like a well rounded Python package have had a MUCH larger impact on the availability of apps and features than anything else at the moment (and I'm not a big Python fan, but the point remains)

lcuk

2009-04-09, 18:29

The Dpad is dead. Long live the Dpad.

Oh wait! This just in:

The Stylus is dead. Long live the Stylus.

Palm and Nokia have finally figured out what Apple has been trying to tell them from their Newton experience. Sheep sh*t. And no, don't bother telling the guys and girls over at Pandora, 'cause I might need one.

FTW

the great thing about a good finger friendly interface is that it is extremely usable with a stylus as well :)

Finger friendly though is a lot more than just making UI elements bigger.

tso

2009-04-09, 19:03

Bundyo

2009-04-09, 19:25

Zoom first? :)

TenSpeed

2009-04-09, 19:35

as i like to say:

finger > stylus > mouse

anything that can be done with a finger can be done with a stylus or mouse, but the other way is not always working.

just look at all the webpages and stuff that have mouseover events. how do you trigger stuff like that with a stylus or finger?!

Well, graphics tablets respond to differing levels of pressure (to change the weight of the line, for example). So light touch=mouseover, firm pressure=click.

I'm pretty sure the current NIT screen is also pressure sensitive.

tso

2009-04-09, 19:44

Well, graphics tablets respond to differing levels of pressure (to change the weight of the line, for example). So light touch=mouseover, firm pressure=click.

I'm pretty sure the current NIT screen is also pressure sensitive.

like i didnt have enough trouble getting it to register a continual pressure when dragging things around as it is (i keep getting double or even triple-taps when i drag or do long-taps).

lcuk

2009-04-09, 19:49

Well, graphics tablets respond to differing levels of pressure (to change the weight of the line, for example). So light touch=mouseover, firm pressure=click.

I'm pretty sure the current NIT screen is also pressure sensitive.

yes, the are pressure sensitive and that also makes them too sensitive.

you could not reproduce a hover by looking only at a certain precise maximum pressure limit.

mouse over is impractical in every way shape and form.
we have a warping pointer that simply reappears only when needed.

daperl

2009-04-09, 20:10

the great thing about a good finger friendly interface is that it is extremely usable with a stylus as well :)

Finger friendly though is a lot more than just making UI elements bigger.

Oh, so the burden's on me now to figure out where to store the stylus. Great. Should I just stash it with the now-most-likely-extinct half-screen keyboard? :) I put serious miles on my n800 before I bought an n810, only to find out that I was still right about what's wrong with it. But maybe now is as good a time as any to give my impressions in relation to each other:

What's Better about the n810:

screen (it's perfect)
screen touch sensitivity (artful)
stand and its gradations (right on)
fullscreen button placement (they did their homework)
+/- button placement (good enough for my remapping of page-up and page-down)
stylus (smaller, lighter)
speaker quality and placement (genius)
don't quote me on this because I don't know if they're the same or different, but the WiFi chip seems way more robust
Except for the looseness I'm now experiencing between the keyboard and the screen, the n810 is an exceptional refinement of the n800. Truly, truly excellent. I'm happily surprised.

What's Worse about the n810:

It has an anchor/keyboard I rarely drop or use
The dpad would suck no matter where you put it. The perimeter-button feel is all wrong.
As if the dpad wasn't enough, why the f*ck did the menu key have to go inside?
Density. The n810 is smaller and heavier than the n800. Thus, it's more dense. This causes more fatigue and I'll stop there...

Things I didn't mention 'cause they're of little concern or difference to me at the moment:

SD slots (a 4GB partition is still unused on my 8GB micro)
camera (along with their drivers, they both suck)
USB jack (whatever, hope I don't lose the cable)
light sensor (cool, but maybe could use a better algorithm)
battery (thinner is sometimes better?)

Anyway, besides the obvious processor improvement, it seems that Nokia is running away from me and into the arms of the trendy. My kid doesn't even finger paint any more, why the f*ck should I?

lcuk

2009-04-09, 20:50

O

[Snip the obviously well thought out points]

Anyway, besides the obvious processor improvement, it seems that Nokia is running away from me and into the arms of the trendy. My kid doesn't even finger paint any more, why the f*ck should I?

I've been saying this all along :)
I could not do half the stuff I do with my stylus using just my finger.
I like easy to use things but certainly precision has its extremely well deserved place.

daperl

2009-04-09, 21:33

I could not do half the stuff I do with my stylus using just my finger.

Yes, I imagine this would mess you up pretty good. Are we confused or is this really where things are going? Or both? Do people in Finland have pointy, oilless fingers. If so, can someone send me a picture. Maybe I'd be willing to sacrifice my right, middle finger to have these characteristics; it usually only gets me in to trouble anyway.

<Megaphone>Hey Nokia, it's a beautiful 800x480 screen. It's a bit more precise than my oily, corn-fed fingers can handle.</Megaphone>

<Dr. Eevil>Throw me a frickin' bone here, people.</Dr. Eevil>

mobiledivide

2009-04-09, 23:41

I also seem to be in the minority when it comes to stylus use, I much prefer using the stylus to browse the web, text links are ALWAYS easier to hit with a stylus, plus the art programs on maemo are pretty fun. There is simply times when the accuracy of a stylus is good. I do like finger usage for some purposes and I definitely like a big hardware keyboard like on the N810.
The great thing about the N810 is its versatility which sets it apart from devices like the iphone and I hope that is still pushed as a good thing as the platform matures. The pencil and paper paradigm is still a very useful idea, something like liqbase proves this.

daperl

2009-04-10, 00:44

Yeah, I've decided I have to somehow replace the default stylus text input and fix my screen real estate usage. Does anyone here use two styli simultaneously? I didn't think so. So why then are we using a virtual typewriter keyboard? And don't get me started on the space hogging space bar; I'm also guessing no one here has opposable styli. This relic takes up 1/3 of the screen. Just give me something customizable that's keypad/dictionary-based in the bottom-right corner. But regardless, the last thing I need is a fullscreen thumb keyboard.

mullf

2009-04-10, 01:00

The stylus keyboard is gone! Finger-touch and physical keyboard only.

What a load of ****.

Have a stylus-driven option and a finger-driven option.

GeraldKo

2009-04-10, 01:38

Yeah, I've decided I have to somehow replace the default stylus text input and fix my screen real estate usage. ... This relic takes up 1/3 of the screen. Just give me something customizable that's keypad/dictionary-based in the bottom-right corner.

Well, you could try QwikScript (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19869). Somewhat steep learning curve, but it does take up less real estate.

(I don't agree on your anti-Qwerty rant -- for me, it's where I expect the keys to be, regardless of its inherent faults -- but I'm as unhappy as you about the plan to sacrifice the stylus keyboard and have just that awful screen-obliterating thumb keyboard.)

daperl

2009-04-10, 02:09

QwicScript. Somewhat steep learning curve, but it does take up less real estate.

Thanks, I'll take a look. What I was alluding to was a T9++ type thing. No learning curve.

I don't agree on your anti-Qwerty rant -- for me, it's where I expect the keys to be...

Yes, I didn't mean to leap away from qwerty like that. I'm right handed and I'm coming in to tap from the bottom right corner, so imagine a kind of right angle qwerty with f and g close to the bottom right. I like landscape mode and I like to code on the tablet. So, one nice unobstructed column from top to bottom would help with visibility. Having a keyboard pop up and down is a pain in the ***.

YoDude

2009-04-10, 02:38

Well, you could try QwikScript (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19869). Somewhat steep learning curve, but it does take up less real estate.

(I don't agree on your anti-Qwerty rant -- for me, it's where I expect the keys to be, regardless of its inherent faults -- but I'm as unhappy as you about the plan to sacrifice the stylus keyboard and have just that awful screen-obliterating thumb keyboard.)

Agreed.

Most of this wont matter as voice recognition becomes smarter and smaller. :D

What has alway gone against the use of a stylus for me is the need of a second thing in order to accomplish the first thing... Now where did that dang stylus go, LoL.

That concept is as archaic as the need for a can or bottle opener in order to enjoy a six pack of your favorite ice cold beverage on a warm summer day :)

If in fact there will be no more mini keyboard, this sounds like one could easily be the first major, user developed add-on.

The N800 didn't become truly useful for me until I discovered user developed alternatives to the task navigators like Upir's Command Navigator (http://upir.cz/maemo/cmdnav.php) and then fiferboy's Personal Menu (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17777). These and Personal Launcher (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21774) have definitely made life easier.

It is also when I discovered that the NIT's value to me wasn't so much as a data input device as it was a data monitoring device. One that could be easily switched between many different sources.

Edit: Sorry daperl I started my post before your response was posted. ... and it took me that dang long on a dang full sized keyboard :eek: :D

lma

2009-04-10, 07:23

the great thing about a good finger friendly interface is that it is extremely usable with a stylus as well :)

There's two parts to UI usability: input and output. For me output usability (eg how much you can see without having to scroll etc) peaked at Bora and has been going downhill since. I put up with it because the underlying system keeps getting better, but really, why all this hostility towards the stylus? I have opposable thumbs and know how to use them!

benny1967

2009-04-10, 07:46

The whole usability thing would deserve a thread of it's own (yet again), Kate Alhola's Maemo presentation doesn't deserve to get overlooked by all ths stylus vs. finger noise. ;)

Having said that and knowing nobody will care, anyway:
Thanks, lma, for the nice phrasing of "input and output usability". I believe you put into words what many of us feel but couldn't easily express.

I had a discussion recently after the Maemo/Android/Openmoko-presentation I gave; I talked to someone who once owned an iPhone and sold it because of its touchscreen-only UI in favor of some S60 device I can't remember.

We didn't agree on much, but we did agree on the point that the whole concept of a touchscreen as an input device for mobile use is wrong. Mobile use would require haptic feedback and one-finger-use, something a D-pad and a small numeric keyboard with T9 can provide very well, but touchscreens and full QUERTY-keyboards can't.
We both thought of the touchscreen as an ersatz mouse, something you build into a device for situations when a mouse would be adequate, but isn't feasible. A compromise we have to use because we lack a better technology. Also, we found that the use cases that make you want to use a pointing device (mouse/keypad/touchscreen) rather than a plain D-pad are not mobile use cases. You don't surf, chat, work on a spreadsheet while you walk. You may answer a call or maybe even type a short text message. But everything else you do while you sit and have the device in front of you, on a table, on your lap, whereever. So the N8x0 isn't a mobile device in terms of mobile use. It's a mobile device in terms of "carry around, then use when you're no longer moving".

Given this, I think we needn't expect a(ny) touch screen UI to be generally suitable for mobile use (one finger, large UI elements), we should be brave and make the most of it in terms of input and output usability... and therefore use... a stylus. (The one and only valid point against the stylus is that it's not ideal for mobile use.)

allnameswereout

2009-04-10, 09:18

Great presentation, well done. Good to give to someone who asks 'what is Fremantle'.

Also, we found that the use cases that make you want to use a pointing device (mouse/keypad/touchscreen) rather than a plain D-pad are not mobile use cases. You don't surf, chat, work on a spreadsheet while you walk.Are you kidding me? I use my iPod touch when I perform my work out (run) or bicycle. I easily select a different track because the touchscreen is optimized for finger usage. No, I don't see myself pulling out a stylus and clicking on a small stylus optimized box while running. Yes, I could also use my phone while working out. Yes, I also have a remote for it. No, I don't see myself using a stylus in such case!!

There are 2 requirements:
1) Device static attached or with minimal vibration; does not necessary imply user is not in motion. The OS can take into account the user is performing a certain task therefore be more fault tolerant. This is what a touchscreen UI for finger already does while one for stylus is much more akin to desktop UI allowing less fault tolerant but also less false positives. A good balance between the 2 is necessary.
2) The buttons need to be big enough; optimal usage of screen. Personally, I found this to be much more fault tolerant than stylus. Potential obvious disadvantage is less available screen size whereas potentional advantage of that is less noise for user. Using HIG and consistency can get you already very far in this regard.

With iPod player on iPod touch this is the case. With pages optimized for iPhone this is the case. With pages optimized for T9 (Opera, Skyfire) this is the case. With pages optimized for desktop browsers this is not the case. I'm not sure if an interface like Canola would suffice, but I'd bet the designers did a damn hard job trying so.

Whether I'd use my N810, iPod touch or E71 I could use either of these to check RSS feeds while walking because their interface is good enough for performing this. Same for e-mail.

You may answer a call or maybe even type a short text message. But everything else you do while you sit and have the device in front of you, on a table, on your lap, whereever.Not necessarily, but you are right that it isn't easy to make sure a device or application is usable (I/O wise) while the body or certain body parts are in motion. It is however possible. I gave examples above. You could use it in the train (e-mail, browsing), in the car (navigation), while waiting in the row to buy a ticket for the museum (Twitter/SMS), while at the restaurant (remote console work). Personally, I'd rather use N8x0 for a lot of typing than a virtual keyboard.

What you say was true for N8x0 and 770. The new direction is 24/7 connectivity, outside, mobile, and touchscreen for finger with a usage somewhere between smartphones and netbooks. For portable inside/static we also have stuff like laptops and netbooks. However you don't grab those out of your pockets while waiting in the grocery store. You can do that with your smartphone. Or N8x0.

So the N8x0 isn't a mobile device in terms of mobile use. It's a mobile device in terms of "carry around, then use when you're no longer moving".Maemo 5 is about RX-51 not N8x0.

Given this, I think we needn't expect a(ny) touch screen UI to be generally suitable for mobile use (one finger, large UI elements) we should be brave and make the most of it in terms of input and output usability... and therefore use... a stylus. (The one and only valid point against the stylus is that it's not ideal for mobile use.)Another stylus rant from Benny.. gee, what a surprise. A'ight, you go grab your stylus out of your N8x0 while on your home trainer to switch to the next MP3. I'll use my fingers instead instead of having to grab that thing every time.

There are specific situations where T9 is best. There are situations where a combination of T9 and slide out keyboard is best. There are situations where an external BlueTooth keyboard is best. There are situations where stylus is best. And there are situations where finger is best. There are a lot of reasons why one is better than the other, but it isn't true one is irrelevant and useless. Which appears to be what you're trying to argue.

allnameswereout

2009-04-10, 09:28

What a load of ****.

Have a stylus-driven option and a finger-driven option.For a long time it was clear Maemo 5 will be optimized for finger-based touch usage instead of stylus.

Maemo 4 was a mix of both; and this either 1) doesn't work 2) is a lot of work, and therefore costs a lot of money and community contribution.

But hey, you're free to grab Mer and a stylus, use Maemo 4, or make a stylus mod or... :)

just look at all the webpages and stuff that have mouseover events. how do you trigger stuff like that with a stylus or finger?!Those are Evil, and phased out.

Anyway, besides the obvious processor improvement, it seems that Nokia is running away from me and into the arms of the trendy. My kid doesn't even finger paint any more, why the f*ck should I?Ehh... well, to avoid your wife from getting pregnant. Or in some cultures, to remain maiden. FWIW I'm glad my hands can deal with required precision.

There is a positive side to so many apparently negative 'trends'.

Did you know the usage of SMS and chat language enhances the phonetics ability in children?

Maybe if our kids got more outside they'd actually be less depressed and less fat? Or more often driven over by a car? Who knows.

New trends and usage paterns demand new ways of interaction and thinking just like old ways are not always worse in every regard.

Microsoft won from IBM, and VHS won from Betamax. We're witnessing how the old media such as newspapers are adapting. People don't want VHS, Betamax, CD, DVD, HD-DVD, MC, DAT, Blu-Ray, SD, CF. They want a few formats and that is it. Some are worth it for manufacturers to offer backwards compatibility; some not. People don't want 100 newspapers, 1000 news websites, 10 tv news, and all that either. They want a few sources. Else you get information overflow. Trend-wise, all of Nokia's competitors are releasing touchscreen based smartphones. Even Palm is catching up. Finally, Nokia too, with 5800 and this summer N97. Does that mean Nokia is only making touchscreen phones? Ofcourse not. They'll release many different types of phones. They've done that for years.

But others, like Apple, don't. And you sometimes cannot have it both ways. As I said it isn't possible to optimize for both finger and stylus. Yes, you can use a finger optimized UI with a stylus and vice versa. In the former you're not using your screen and application space optimally, in the latter you need to be precise, lucky, and get used to trial and error. None of these 2 is user-friendly for normal users who expect a device to Just Work.

Painting and liqbase sketching is indeed not possible with finger. Or, well, very cumbersome. At least on this this size of screen in this UI. So you'd need a N8x0 for that, RX-51 with 3rd party stylus, or if you're serious and worth your money: a Wacom.

And the kids of our kids will use a touchscreen table to play with finger painting, play RTS, and compose music. No worries...

attila77

2009-04-10, 12:15

And the kids of our kids will use a touchscreen table to play with finger painting, play RTS, and compose music. No worries...

Not necessarily so. Of course, maybe that will be an option, but as 'hand' based (touchscreen falls here) is limited in so many ways, it will likely never be an only input option (I challenge you to a finger input vs mouse controlled RTS contest any day). That's why today even on the desktop you have complementary use of keyboard and mice. You could do ALL your tasks with either, but there are inputs at which spatial sucks, and there are inputs for which informational input sucks. And we don't have finger-on-screen as it would suck in just too many ways even if we limit the use-case scenarions for it as a mouse replacement.

Personally, I would prefer a currently non-existant hybrid approach, very similar to the mouse+keboard duality - optimize for finger and stylus SIMULTANEOUSLY, and not exclusively. For example, simple music player controls - stop, play, next, volume are likely 'fire and forget' style single actions, which are likely to be used with fingers. OTOH I *don't* want to muck through text, advanced settings, file dialogs with a finger based input. I understand the need for continuity BUT I think UI designers calculate people to be more inert, lazy, unwilling to learn to interact than they really are (and are thus creating a self-fulfilling prophecy). As you could've guessed by now, I'm in the stylus camp and rarely use finger input except for the most basic tasks.

benny1967

2009-04-10, 12:59

No, I don't see myself pulling out a stylus and clicking on a small stylus optimized box while running

... how one single sentence can tell you didn't read my post at all. :D

lcuk

2009-04-10, 13:08

Not necessarily so. Of course, maybe that will be an option, but as 'hand' based (touchscreen falls here) is limited in so many ways, it will likely never be an only input option (I challenge you to a finger input vs mouse controlled RTS contest any day). That's why today even on the desktop you have complementary use of keyboard and mice. You could do ALL your tasks with either, but there are inputs at which spatial sucks, and there are inputs for which informational input sucks. And we don't have finger-on-screen as it would suck in just too many ways even if we limit the use-case scenarions for it as a mouse replacement.

Personally, I would prefer a currently non-existant hybrid approach, very similar to the mouse+keboard duality - optimize for finger and stylus SIMULTANEOUSLY, and not exclusively. For example, simple music player controls - stop, play, next, volume are likely 'fire and forget' style single actions, which are likely to be used with fingers. OTOH I *don't* want to muck through text, advanced settings, file dialogs with a finger based input. I understand the need for continuity BUT I think UI designers calculate people to be more inert, lazy, unwilling to learn to interact than they really are (and are thus creating a self-fulfilling prophecy). As you could've guessed by now, I'm in the stylus camp and rarely use finger input except for the most basic tasks.

This is very true and something liqbase manages.
On the menus and font screens, large touchable items appear.
I do not need a stylus to jump around the menus or to perform simple tasks.
It is only when I get into actually drawing do I realistically need the stylus :)

Did you know by the way, on the main liqbase menus of the released version, there is a small corner widget area on EVERY menu item.. (top right)
you never catch it when you use finger, but it could be used with a pen to do advanced stuff.
(its not now, its just academic)

daperl

2009-04-10, 13:16

... how one single sentence can tell you didn't read my post at all. :D

Blinded by stylus envy.

benny1967

2009-04-10, 13:24

Blinded by stylus envy.

Oh my god! "stylus envy"... why don't I ever come up with these phrases!? :)

I'll have to remember this, it's really cool. :D
Thx for making my week.

daperl

2009-04-10, 13:32

Oh my god! "stylus envy"... why don't I ever come up with these phrases!? :)

I'll have to remember this, it's really cool. :D
Thx for making my week.

Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week.

And don't forget to tip the veal and try your waitress.

Capt'n Corrupt

2009-04-10, 19:25

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't that one of the big appeals that Maemo and the tablets have always had; the only difference was anything that was GNOME/GTK, instead of now anything that's QT, so I don't really see how this a "Game changing" development or is going to make native app building any better or worse in theory... I haven't used both extensively, but the impression I get is that QT is much more mature and broad than GTK, but that really doesn't change the fact that both provide the idea of "you can develop natively regardless of your IS devel environment and port anywhere else with a re-compile"; after all, a huge chunk of the apps we have on the tablets right now are simply native Linux apps that have been recompiled for ARM using the Maemo SDK...

Game changing? I don't remember saying that. ;) I can understand how that was implied, though with the 'easier' adverb.

Seriously though, I think that using an OS independent layer is a good idea for broad-development, whatever it may be; we're alike in this opinion. I don't know too much about the gnome environment other than it seems to be appropriated as a Desktop Environment, and QT an application development framework. As such, Gnome (and its apps) are more largely localised to Linux Desktops and distributions, while QT apps seem a bit more cosmopolitan.

This is an advantage to using QT as a cross-platform toolkit, and should be more attractive to developers. Of course, it's not a game changer -- I would not imply it as such.

YARR!
}:^)~

Wait for it.... Corrupt!

Capt'n Corrupt

2009-04-10, 22:40

One more thing regarding QT:

The move to adopt QT not only provides a mature and stable platform for developing applications, it also hedges against disaster scenarios due to implosion of a particular device/os, and insulates developers simultaneously. Lastly, due to the cross-platform nature of QT, Nokia will save BIG money/time trying to develop and debug new SDKs for future devices.

Check out this article released today:
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4862947030.html?kc=rss

Consider the implications of the QT toolset in the current mobile market, and Nokia's revealed plans.
1) A toolkit ready for development for Maemo, Symbian (http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2008/10/nokia-releases-first-qt-preview-for-symbian-s60.ars), and other Linux distros. This is significant because Nokia is openly pursuing Maemo *and* Symbian, as well as the netbook market (OS undisclosed -- but it doesn't really matter).
2) A loose and empowering LGPL.

.... I smell an app store, but not one limited to a particular platform or generation of product!

YARR!
}:^)~

"Aye Capt'n" said he.

lcuk

2009-04-11, 00:49

the ONLY problem ive got with qt and cross platform is that on the whole GUI apps from desktop software simply does not fit on the tablet.

I'm not talking about scalable lists and things, i mean in the amount of information a desktop app typically tries to display.

it means that qt works really well across the similar platforms - basically a desktop setting, but as soon as it gets down to this size the paradigm breaks down.

so if you need to write the app again anyway, so it doesnt really matter what you use :)

GeneralAntilles

2009-04-11, 01:12

the ONLY problem ive got with qt and cross platform is that on the whole GUI apps from desktop software simply does not fit on the tablet.

Nokia's plan is less for tablet/desktop compatibility than it is for tablet/S60 compatibility.

YoDude

2009-04-11, 03:53

Nokia's plan is less for tablet/desktop compatibility than it is for tablet/S60 compatibility.

Not exactly on this topic but what I have been thinking lately is...

A way to attract new users of the new device directly to maemo.org would be to have a desktop app like TightVNC tested, polished, and available from close to day one that would allow Windows and the newer Linux flavors to easily interact with the new device.

GeneralAntilles

2009-04-11, 04:41

A way to attract new users of the new device directly to maemo.org would be to have a desktop app like TightVNC tested, polished, and available from close to day one that would allow Windows and the newer Linux flavors to easily interact with the new device.

Just one? That thing's going up in flames.

Seriously, though, VNC is pretty bandwidth heavy which is a weight you really don't want to have when people are unboxing new tablets and trying to download software. I don't see us being able to get the 100s of tablets that'd be needed to run live demos for everybody on the internet.

A good, easy to use, lightweight SDK would be a better option.

Bundyo

2009-04-11, 06:09

Bandwidth heavy AND slow :)

attila77

2009-04-11, 06:25

Seriously, though, VNC is pretty bandwidth heavy which is a weight you really don't want to have when people are unboxing new tablets and trying to download software. I don't see us being able to get the 100s of tablets that'd be needed to run live demos for everybody on the internet.
A good, easy to use, lightweight SDK would be a better option.

What happened to http://sdk-ami.garage.maemo.org/ ? EC2 sure does seem a reasonable choice for an on-demand horde of emulated devices over the net, and it's not going to bankrupt Nokia either.

attila77

2009-04-11, 06:29

the ONLY problem ive got with qt and cross platform is that on the whole GUI apps from desktop software simply does not fit on the tablet.

I'm not talking about scalable lists and things, i mean in the amount of information a desktop app typically tries to display.

so if you need to write the app again anyway, so it doesnt really matter what you use :)

Qt has been focusing on tablets through Qtopia previously, that's why no 'direct' support for Qt on tablets. Not sure about the future roadmap as Qtopia/QtEmbedded is no longer an option, but if you did your app the 'proper' way, Model-View-Controller style, the only thing you need to redo are the dialogs and almost none of the functionality itself - which *is* a major gain.

lcuk

2009-04-11, 07:45

Qt has been focusing on tablets through Qtopia previously, that's why no 'direct' support for Qt on tablets. Not sure about the future roadmap as Qtopia/QtEmbedded is no longer an option, but if you did your app the 'proper' way, Model-View-Controller style, the only thing you need to redo are the dialogs and almost none of the functionality itself - which *is* a major gain.

of course, and thats the same no matter which toolkit you choose.
I think the General hit the nail on the head though:

Nokia's plan is less for tablet/desktop compatibility than it is for tablet/S60 compatibility.

thats a pretty damned good reason in my book :)

attila77

2009-04-11, 08:50

of course, and thats the same no matter which toolkit you choose.

One tiny note - Qt has the history going a long way to make itself not only platform agnostic, but how should I put it, platform friendly. Regardless of what you do, Qt will try to do it in a way that is native for that particular platform, not only try to 'get away with it'. Others try this as well, of course, but IMHO Qt does this to a much greater extent than any other toolkit/framework I had tried (GTK, wxWidgets), so your programs not only run (and look decent) on different platforms, but they actually *behave* like native applications without too much effort. YMMV, of course. This is also the reason why I think (or at least hope :) ) it has good chances making a real impact on S60.

Capt'n Corrupt

2009-04-11, 17:59

To chime in on the finger-vs-stylus debate.

For the majority of use cases, I believe that the finger is more than suitable for mobile use with an appropriately designed UI. Even in the case of apps that require precision at times (ie. web browser/text-editor/etc with small text), a properly designed UI can compensate and doesn't *need* a stylus (eg. iPhone/Pre/Android/etc). In fact, I'd say that the consequences of including a stylus far outweigh its rather limited benefits.

I've noticed that there are very few use cases that require the precision of a stylus for their operation when a finger just wont do. Of these are drawing apps, and handwriting recognition -- a tiny fraction of overall use cases (who uses handwriting recognition anyway?).

That said, I hope the stylus is eliminated from the next Tablet, available only in add-on (http://www.songtak.com.tw/product.php?mode=list&cid=3) form (http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2008/10/02/nokia-finally-unveil.html).

There are some advantages to eliminating with the stylus:
1) Capacitive touch is an option - Higher durability, brighter screen, with higher finger accuracy -- potential for multi-touch (novel, but useful in certain cases)
2) Smaller device form factor (no internal housing for stylus)
3) Incentive for much-more finger-friendly apps
4) One less thing to lose

Having the stylus attached leads to apps that require one more step that I should not have to contend with while on the go.

YARR!
}:^)~

Bonjour, Corrupt

daperl

2009-04-11, 18:57

"Your corruption is complete."

3333

attila77

2009-04-11, 20:08

I've noticed that there are very few use cases that require the precision of a stylus for their operation when a finger just wont do. Of these are drawing apps, and handwriting recognition -- a tiny fraction of overall use cases (who uses handwriting recognition anyway?).

We're not talking only about precision here, but the amount of data presentable and controllable on a single screen. Have you tryed doing file operations with a finger + keypad combo ? Or selecting text ? Picking links on a web page ? Please don't loose the stylus, I really really really want to have stylus input. If I wanted to grease up my display with my fingers, I would have gone the iPod touch way.

lemmyslender

2009-04-11, 20:28

I can't imagine using something like openoffice or gnumeric and the associated menus with just a finger or finger/dpad (if even an option). One of the appealling things about the tablets is the ability to run non-ui-optimized software. Certianly things like debian, kde might suffer from lack of readily available stylus.

I like having the option to easily try other options on the tablet. I also typed this response on the stylus keyboard, I don't think I would have done it on the finger keyboard.

Capt'n Corrupt

2009-04-12, 04:16

@daperl
HAHA... LOVE IT. Get ready to hate me as I make this assertion: I LOVED episode 1, 2 and 3.... Well, not so much episode 1 and 2, other than that they led into 3... 3 was epic!

@atilla77, lemmyslender
First off, let me say that I fully respect your advocacy of the stylus. I'm just one person, with one opinion and realise that I represent an infinitesimal fraction of the marketplace!

Having said that, let me ask this:
Since the OS is open, and legacy apps will be legacy apps, would you be opposed to having the stylus as an accessory rather than built-into the unit?

In this way, individuals that require or prefer the type of functionality that a stylus allows, will optionally have it. A similar case would be a bluetooth/usb keyboard/mouse. It works well for individuals that would rather have that input for certain apps, but is not at all required for general use.

YARR!
}:^)~

I (heart) Corrupt

daperl

2009-04-12, 04:49

Get ready to hate me as I make this assertion: I LOVED episode 1, 2 and 3.... Well, not so much episode 1 and 2, other than that they led into 3... 3 was epic!

No, I'm not one of those. I have a young boy that I indoctrinated early, and I really enjoy watching him decide his likes and dislikes for himself. Needless to say, I've seen 1 and 2 probably more times than most. The end of 3 is still too scary for him. He seems to like 4, 5 and 6 equally; it usually depends on the weather. But the Clone Wars currently trump everything.

I've exposed him to plenty of science fiction; the other day I had to whip out 2001 because I had tortured him long enough with the non sequiturs, "Please open the pod bay doors Hal" and "I can't do that Dave." He's anxiously awaiting June 24th, but maybe I'll take him to Star Trek before then.

igor

2009-04-12, 05:46

just look at all the webpages and stuff that have mouseover events. how do you trigger stuff like that with a stylus or finger?!

A capacitive touchscreen would allow to detect the proximity of the finger.

GeneralAntilles

2009-04-12, 05:52

A capacitive touchscreen would allow to detect the proximity of the finger.

Gives totally new meaning to "mouse hover".

fms

2009-04-12, 06:25

A capacitive touchscreen would allow to detect the proximity of the finger.
Should we take that as a hint? =)

igor

2009-04-12, 06:58

Should we take that as a hint? =)

To physics? Definitely! :-D

lma

2009-04-12, 07:24

Please don't loose the stylus, I really really really want to have stylus input.

I think we're safe for now, considering that 3 of the Fremantle Stars (http://maemo.org/news/announcements/0eb8fdfeedec11ddb28e1b3c4d7b308a308a/) are stylus applications.

benny1967

2009-04-12, 07:57

Having said that, let me ask this:
Since the OS is open, and legacy apps will be legacy apps, would you be opposed to having the stylus as an accessory rather than built-into the unit?

In this way, individuals that require or prefer the type of functionality that a stylus allows, will optionally have it. A similar case would be a bluetooth/usb keyboard/mouse.
it's not so much the stylus as a physical accessory. i'm used to buying add-ons each time nokia ruins this device. (like a had to buy a 3rd party case when they decided the N800 needn't be protected.)

the real problem isn't the hardware. it's the software. once you decide you'll only support finger use, you'll need to create a UI that's less powerful. you'll need to re-design existing desktop applications only because of the UI, even if they'd run without any change technically. (look at the preferences-screen of Xchat. i cannot imagine this within a fingerpainting environment.)
what makes the tablets so powerful is that they're so close to a standard GNU/linux desktop system that even GUI applications can run without a lot of change. this is the only reason why i'm using a tablet. i'm afraid this feature will be lost.

so yes, of course i'd happily buy a 3rd party stylus and keep it in my 3rd party case, but i'm really afraid i'll also have to go for a 3rd party operating system then because finger-friendly maemo may be closer to a media player than to a laptop. the operating systems we have at the moment to replace maemo are there, but right now i wouldn't trust any of them for every day use. even if i did: they start now whereas maemo started in 2005. and they have an even smaller user base.

i's feel a lot more comfortable if this thread wasn't so empty:
http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27612

GeneralAntilles

2009-04-12, 08:16

what makes the tablets so powerful is that they're so close to a standard GNU/linux desktop system that even GUI applications can run without a lot of change. this is the only reason why i'm using a tablet. i'm afraid this feature will be lost.

For you. None of my day-to-day usage of the tablets involves running desktop applications, and I believe the same is true for the overwhelming majority of tablet owners.

It's a strength of the tablets, but it's hardly the linchpin of the platform. In fact I'd argue that, in many ways, this compatibility is a weakness—much like Windows compatibility was for OS/2.

Besides, what's all the fuss over? Nothing's changing so radically that you wont be able to run your desktop ports. If not having a stylus keyboard is such a huge issue, then that's why the hardware keyboard is there. If that really doesn't work for you, then it's not overwhelmingly difficult to add plugins to h-i-m.

attila77

2009-04-12, 09:49

For you. None of my day-to-day usage of the tablets involves running desktop applications, and I believe the same is true for the overwhelming majority of tablet owners.

Please, let's not get into that "I'm more an etalon user that you are" discussion.

For example, the web browser, an archetypical internet tablet aplication is, was and will be a desktop replacement (the failure of WAP demonstrates this clearly) - sites are made for desktop style input, and that is keyboard + mouse (=stylus). While can dance around that with all sorts of zoom and predictive clicking game, the unaided human finger always will be only a surogate input device for it.

If not having a stylus keyboard is such a huge issue, then that's why the hardware keyboard is there. If that really doesn't work for you, then it's not overwhelmingly difficult to add plugins to h-i-m.

We're (or, at least I'm) not talking about stylus keyboards for quite some time now (if fact, if you read back you'll see I never use stylus OSK). It's about stylus, as in high resolution input device to allow for a) precision spatial input -> drawing, writing, sketching and b) navigation and use of complex user interfaces without breaking them up into a million pages.

Canola settings are a personal example for me. It just drives me nuts - it's finger friendly to the point that I can't actually do what I want, with or without stylus. But with media players, at least you have choice. With a web browser, as mentioned above, you don't.

GeneralAntilles

2009-04-12, 10:38

Please, let's not get into that "I'm more an etalon user that you are" discussion.

That wasn't my intention. The post I was quoting was trying to describe desktop compatibility (specifically the ability to use straight desktop ports) as one of the core strengths of the platform, which it is not.

For example, the web browser, an archetypical internet tablet aplication is, was and will be a desktop replacement (the failure of WAP demonstrates this clearly) - sites are made for desktop style input, and that is keyboard + mouse (=stylus). While can dance around that with all sorts of zoom and predictive clicking game, the unaided human finger always will be only a surogate input device for it.

I manage to use the web quite heavily on my device utilizing only my fingers. A well-designed UI (Safari on iPhone OS is a fair example) can provide a very strong browsing experience with finger input.

It's about stylus, as in high resolution input device to allow for a) precision spatial input -> drawing, writing, sketching and b) navigation and use of complex user interfaces without breaking them up into a million pages.

I guess I don't see it. There's a lot of doom and gloom about the end of the platform and a lot of assumptions based on rather limited information. From a technical standpoint, nothing I've seen has limited any the aforementioned use-cases.

attila77

2009-04-12, 13:03

That wasn't my intention. The post I was quoting was trying to describe desktop compatibility (specifically the ability to use straight desktop ports) as one of the core strengths of the platform, which it is not.

I does come across to me as one of the core strengths. Maybe not intended or even welcomed by many, but considering the number of apps which are available as near-straight ports or libs, I'd say it is a very defining moment.

I manage to use the web quite heavily on my device utilizing only my fingers. A well-designed UI (Safari on iPhone OS is a fair example) can provide a very strong browsing experience with finger input.

As already stated, if done right, you can use both for whatever purpose, it's just a question of efficiency/ergonomy. One could just as easily argue that with an OMAP3 class hardware, 1024x600 display+stylus and proper OS/browser, you'd not only have a strong or manageable, but *identical* browsing experience as on your desktop.

I wouldn't put your finger-web use of present day NIT for a vote to determine if the overwhelming majority of users use it that way, though :)

Also, try playing games like pingus or maemosweeper with fingers. Loads of fun :)

I guess I don't see it. There's a lot of doom and gloom about the end of the platform and a lot of assumptions based on rather limited information.

I didn't use such strong words, and don't think it would be the end of anything. I just think that ditching the stylus altogether is reducing functionality and limiting existing usage patterns for no particular reason other than saying 'look ma, no stylus !'. In this case, less is, well... less.

I seriously wish UI designers gave more thought to hybrid stylus/finger interfaces. But I'll go further - not only UI, but hardware designers, too. The device could detect whether the stylus is IN (=finger mode), or OUT (=mouse mode) and adapt both UI and display sensitivity/parameters accordingly.

mullf

2009-04-12, 13:40

A well-designed UI (Safari on iPhone OS is a fair example) can provide a very strong browsing experience with finger input.

If you spend all day zooming in and out so you can click on the correct link/drop-down-menu-item and then see the full page again.

There's a lot of doom and gloom about the end of the platform and a lot of assumptions based on rather limited information. From a technical standpoint, nothing I've seen has limited any the aforementioned use-cases.

I think people are more concerned about the end of the platform for them. If the tablets no longer meet a person's requirements, how long/whether the tablets survive isn't really their concern anymore.

lemmyslender

2009-04-12, 14:17

I'll readily admit a stylus could be an add-on, IF the ui supports it. Although, I wouldn't buy one, as I already have several. A stylus could easily be included without sacrificing much space.

Hardware keyboards would eliminate some of the issues (providing ALL the new models have one). I still wouldn't use a finger keyboard for any lenghty input, because I wouldn't be able to see enough of what I was typing.

Sitting here, I just noticed that my kids Leapster even has a stylus. A learning device for young children, which should be "finger friendly" has an included stylus. I assume that this is because in testing, they felt they could not design the ui and games to be completely "finger friendly" enough to drop the stylus. This in a case where ease of use and cost are paramount.

Although, I can hope that if the default ui is finger based, it could easily be changed to a hybrid or even further reduced to stylus friendly (maximum info on screen) by changing the theme?

allnameswereout

2009-04-12, 14:34

For example, the web browser, an archetypical internet tablet aplication is, was and will be a desktop replacement (the failure of WAP demonstrates this clearly) - sites are made for desktop style input, and that is keyboard + mouse (=stylus). While can dance around that with all sorts of zoom and predictive clicking game, the unaided human finger always will be only a surogate input device for it.WAP failed; yet RSS succeeded. There are tons of optimalizations for non-desktop browsers. Opera Mobile for example compresses data. Memory footprints of mobile browsers must be low too. The browsers must be optimized for the hardware input (T9, touchscreen, hardware keyboard, stylus). Applications, including browsers, must be optimized for the screen resolution. And even the architecture. Furthermore, there is no multi touch possible with stylus so you can forget zooming in and out easily (which gives the user a reasonable accurate precision good enough for almost all user cases IMO; except something like precision drawing; for that you'd buy a Wacom or use your old stylus optimized OS/device) while if you optimize your application for finger usage you will allow implementing such since it gives the user a clear advantage. You even see layouts optimized for 1) desktop 2) T9 (traditional mobile) 3) finger usage (iPhone). Are you understanding the impact of this? Hint: no stylus optimized web sites exist and they will never exist. That means your browser experience on the end point of web designers will not improve for you!! Good luck and have fun hacking around that while I simply use my fingers to navigate on an iPhone-optimized website. Speaking of, MobileSafari zooms in on an input box when you click on it. Same for text you double click on. Zooming difficult? These are great features indeed.

Something like X Chat can run on a remote computer you log in to. You simply resume your session much like when using screen(1). Or you'd prefer to run an IRC client which is actually optimized for usage on the tablet.

Canola settings are a personal example for me. It just drives me nuts - it's finger friendly to the point that I can't actually do what I want, with or without stylus. But with media players, at least you have choice. With a web browser, as mentioned above, you don't.Can you give examples what drives you nuts?

On a side note: I do agree that the fact the device runs an X client and X server is a potential strong positive point in some niche cases.

I didn't use such strong words, and don't think it would be the end of anything. I just think that ditching the stylus altogether is reducing functionality and limiting existing usage patterns for no particular reason other than saying 'look ma, no stylus !'. In this case, less is, well... less.Not really. Usage patterns are limited for a reason because sometimes less is more. You cannot build a car which is good at everything you cannot build an OS or hardware device which is good at everything either. A stylus is a cheap component, but does use space on the device.

Meanwhile, software wise you don't lose any code whatsoever, and you are free to optimize the UI for stylus and run all the desktop apps on the device you want. In fact, I'd bet running XFCe or old Hildon will be just easy using Ubuntu or Mer. However, I believe only a (vocal) minority will opt for this path instead of the default path of finger optimized UI.

I seriously wish UI designers gave more thought to hybrid stylus/finger interfaces. But I'll go further - not only UI, but hardware designers, too. The device could detect whether the stylus is IN (=finger mode), or OUT (=mouse mode) and adapt both UI and display sensitivity/parameters accordingly.Maemo 4 tried this, and I believe it failed miserably at it but Nokia learned that they have to decide for either or invest a lot of time and energy into a UI which handles both well.

tso

2009-04-12, 14:41

i would say wap failed because the first version showed up when mobile internet where still metered by connection time, not traffic amounts.

therefor you could not really read anything without draining your wallet, and people backed off it.

GeraldKo

2009-04-12, 15:37

Question: Is the RX-51's screen going to be more accurate and more sensitive than the N8*0's? If so, what are the technological advances?

(Even if the N900 UI were perfected for finger use, the fact is, the touchscreen itself has to be up to the task. For finger use, the current screen is pathetic compared to Apple's.) (My understanding is that it will still be resistive, not capacitive -- no?)

lma

2009-04-12, 15:46

The post I was quoting was trying to describe desktop compatibility (specifically the ability to use straight desktop ports) as one of the core strengths of the platform, which it is not.

Actually, the post said "without a lot of change", not straight ports. Ie, this is more about ports like claws, gpodder or xournal rather than running an arm-compiled openoffice on the tablet (although as we know that is also possible). And indeed that is one of the core strengths of the platform IMHO, and at least part of the reason Nokia is pushing home-grown projects upstream, tracks other upstream projects more closely and so on.

This goes much deeper than GUI apps btw. Systems today are so complex that the "standing on the shoulders of giants" approach is really the only sensible way to build them if you want to get anywhere before you're obsolete, and why proprietary alternatives will ultimately fail. Just a trivial example: how many mainstream non-POSIX OSs are still around today, and is their popularity growing or declining?

attila77

2009-04-12, 16:29

WAP failed; yet RSS succeeded.

It's a different paradigm in every way except for the network protocol. Wap tried to bring the SAME functionality in a portable form factor.

There are tons of optimalizations for non-desktop browsers. Opera Mobile for example compresses data. Memory footprints of mobile browsers must be low too. The browsers must be optimized for the hardware input (T9, touchscreen, hardware keyboard, stylus). Applications, including browsers, must be optimized for the screen resolution. And even the architecture.

Which of these optimizations do not apply or do not have an equivalend in a desktop browser ?

Furthermore, there is no multi touch possible with stylus

Why exactly ? Seriously, people think about the stylus as a must-be-like-a-pencil form. As we've seen with the Tube, this is not necessary.

These are great features indeed.

Great features that would not be necessary in the first place had you not opted to make an UI design choice (and ones that could equally well be used in a stylus GUI). Apple is a master of presenting great solutions to problems that usually never existed (or were obsoleted ages ago) in the first place.

Also, variable factor zoom is dead easy to do with a single touch stylus, even PocketUniverse from 2000 got that right. The fact that Maemo want for zoom buttons and dialogs does not mean stylus zooms can't be elegant.

Or you'd prefer to run an IRC client which is actually optimized for usage on the tablet.

No. It's not optimized for usage on the tablet. It's rewritten to accomodate a change in UI paradigm. That has nothing to do with tablets. I could make the same argument for voice controlled UIs. You clearly equate finger control with optimized. In what way is using a finger UI over a stylus based one 'optimized' ? What does it do better (except prevent stylus loss) ?

Can you give examples what drives you nuts?

It never allows you to select files/folders (in terms of settings). Download folder ? Internal card/External card/Home. Want something else ? Too bad. Or worse yet:

Tap Settings.
Tap Library.
Tap Media folders.
Tap Audio folders.

I did 4 beautifully animated finger taps just to get to a fixed Internal card/External card/Home choice again. NUTS ! :) (and to make things worse, it doesn't even allow you to cancel. If you press OK, it rescans. If you press the CANCEL button, it rescans. If you click outside the tab like you would otherwise, it won't budge. NUTS ! :) And on top of all this it doesn't even do copy/paste. NUTS ! :)

Not really. Usage patterns are limited for a reason because sometimes less is more. You cannot build a car which is good at everything you cannot build an OS or hardware device which is good at everything either. A stylus is a cheap component, but does use space on the device.

As a general approach, it doesn't. Again, the form factor thing. See the Tube example.

Meanwhile, software wise you don't lose any code whatsoever

You just gained a completely new UI to worry about and keep consistent with your 'other' UI. That's a step backwards, unless the new UI gives you functionality you didn't have previously. And if your original app is a run-of-the-mill open source program, you need quite a bit more work to do than plain hildonization.

Maemo 4 tried this, and I believe it failed miserably at it but Nokia learned that they have to decide for either or invest a lot of time and energy into a UI which handles both well.

Can I get an example how exactly Maemo 4 tried this (admit, I'm a n00b, started with Chinook) ? Or, to be more precise, which base maemo/hildon apps conciously used a hybrid approach ? Having big OK/Cancel buttons is not what I'm talking about. It's not about input that you can use with BOTH input devices, but about actively separating input defined by the advantages of each input device.

EDIT: Vagalume is the example UI-wise how I like stuff. A main, finger friendly area for common operations. A stylus friendly settings+advanced functionality menu. Liqbase does something similar too, but it's more linked to stylus by it's core functionality anyway.

GeneralAntilles

2009-04-12, 17:01

I seriously wish UI designers gave more thought to hybrid stylus/finger interfaces. But I'll go further - not only UI, but hardware designers, too. The device could detect whether the stylus is IN (=finger mode), or OUT (=mouse mode) and adapt both UI and display sensitivity/parameters accordingly.

They did, it's called OS2007, it was basically an utter failure. It sounds nice as an idea but in practice you're limited by both technology and time. Programming two UIs for everything takes a lot of effort and introduces a lot more edge cases and failure points and generally results in a mediocre experience with both rather than an excellent experience with one or the other.

It just doesn't make sense.

Maemo 4 tried this, and I believe it failed miserably at it but Nokia learned that they have to decide for either or invest a lot of time and energy into a UI which handles both well.

Maemo 3, actually, Maemo 4 was the halfway step between it and Maemo 5.

Question: Is the RX-51's screen going to be more accurate and more sensitive than the N8*0's? If so, what are the technological advances?

According to the current kernel changelogs, it's a TI panel, much more than that is hard to say without actually using it.

Actually, the post said "without a lot of change", not straight ports. Ie, this is more about ports like claws, gpodder or xournal rather than running an arm-compiled openoffice on the tablet (although as we know that is also possible). And indeed that is one of the core strengths of the platform IMHO, and at least part of the reason Nokia is pushing home-grown projects upstream, tracks other upstream projects more closely and so on.

None of which is going away with Maemo 5, so what's the fuss about?

GeneralAntilles

2009-04-12, 17:03

I'll add this (and then I'm done with these roundabout UI discussions): if Nokia really were totally abandoning stylus input, why in the world would they still be using a resistive touchscreen?

attila77

2009-04-12, 17:22

They did, it's called OS2007, it was basically an utter failure. It sounds nice as an idea but in practice you're limited by both technology and time. Programming two UIs for everything takes a lot of effort and introduces a lot more edge cases and failure points and generally results in a mediocre experience with both rather than an excellent experience with one or the other.
It just doesn't make sense.

We're still not talking about the same thing. See my vagalume example. If Canola would do it's settings in a similar (of course visually matched) manner and kept it's current UI for general operations, I'd be super-cool with that, too. You know, the I'd wear a Canola T shirt and hat kind of cool instead of writing NUTS ! :) about it.

None of which is going away with Maemo 5, so what's the fuss about?

No fuss really, it's just that some people don't understand why other people think an (only) finger based spatial input is an *upgrade* from stylus input. I can understand if someone prefers one over the other, but am under the impression that the well executed *implementation* of a finger oriented UI in the form of iPhoneOS is making people believe that ANY finger oriented approach is in itself superior to ANY stylus oriented (or hybrid) one.

tso

2009-04-12, 17:26

I'll add this (and then I'm done with these roundabout UI discussions): if Nokia really were totally abandoning stylus input, why in the world would they still be using a resistive touchscreen?

because they have a good connection to a supplier of them?

GeneralAntilles

2009-04-12, 17:37

No fuss really, it's just that some people don't understand why other people think an (only) finger based spatial input is an *upgrade* from stylus input. I can understand if someone prefers one over the other, but am under the impression that the well executed *implementation* of a finger oriented UI in the form of iPhoneOS is making people believe that ANY finger oriented approach is in itself superior to ANY stylus oriented (or hybrid) one.

Because a stylus sucks for mobile usage. Simple as that.

Laughing Man

2009-04-12, 18:11

While I agree that a stylus sucks for mobile usage (not to mention it would take two hands instead of one). I still find the approach of using a stylus for more precise operations versus finger input for more general operations better than finger for all. As atilla77 mentioned, vagalume is a good example of that.

chlettn

2009-04-12, 18:26

Stylus vs. finger debate, take 273...really, this has all been discussed ad absurdum in various threads, and until the new tablets are presented, there's little point in these debates imho.

Bundyo

2009-04-12, 18:39

And after that it will be too late. In fact it is already.

Laughing Man

2009-04-12, 18:51

And after that it will be too late. In fact it is already.

True, but it's also more of an issue of design of programs. Though in the end it's up to the developer for his/her preference of interface and usability design.

lma

2009-04-12, 22:09

shadowjk

2009-04-12, 23:53

Being able to use device with just fingers is great, especially through actual physical keys that give tactile feedback so that you can acccurately operate even small keys, this enables a device to provide instant access to many different functions at once. Plus, with input and output somewhat separated, the precious output space can be dedicated to displaying more information.

What worries me about finger friendly touchscreen is that the screen is roughly 5 by 3 thumbs big, which puts a limit to the amount of inputs instantly available, and it has to be combined somehow with displaying the actual content/information...

On a more practical note, the touchscreen of my N800 and N810 is too insensitive to consistently register fingerpresses without exerting disturbing amount of force. Something sharp works better, except for pressing 'o' on the osk of my N810 and enter in N800, there I need to press with stylus until the colors go funny on the LCD. I dare not even try make it recognize finger in those areas. As I still like to use the device one handed, while holding it, I've become accustomed to using my thumbnail as stylus. It's not entirely free of frustration, because you have to keep nails long enough to register when jabbing the touchscreen, but short enough to not get in the way when typing on the hw keyboard. Still, I manage to both hit links and keys on osk (when nail length is optimal).

If the device had a dpad or joystick on the left, centred vertically, and you could rotate the device to portrait, and there was a browser with virtual pointer like opera mini, or microb jump-to-link that wasn't so random and perhaps with added pointer clue so you knew where you were, I'd probably use the device like that a majority of the time.. Kinda like a traditional phone but with bigger screen... I still browse the web on my phone instead of tablet and normal computer sometimes, because it's more comfortable physically to handle.

I use the tablet the most at home, and probably spend more time browsing web on it than on my computer... It's a compromise in comfort and information-at-once.

mullf

2009-04-13, 00:28

Because a stylus sucks for mobile usage. Simple as that.

I've never had any problems.

GeraldKo

2009-04-13, 01:04

Because a stylus sucks for mobile usage. Simple as that.

I'd have let this endlessly argued point go, but not after an absolute remark like that.

Tell me just how it sucks for mobile usage? Yeah, it would suck if you're driving a car, but you can't, or shouldn't, do much in that situation anyway. Or I can see how maybe it's universally inconvenient to bother with the stylus for very brief uses, like tapping in a phone number or pausing a music player.

But, for example, I walked around Cairo last month using Maemo Mapper (thank you, gnuite!) and the stylus was not an issue at all. OTOH, I don't think I could have accurately managed the tap-and-holds on the Points-of-Interest icons without a whole lot of zooming in and then back out if I had been restricted to using my fingers.

If Nokia took away the convenience of the stylus holder, then dealing with the stylus would suck for mobile usage.

daperl

2009-04-13, 02:40

Capt'n Corrupt

2009-04-13, 03:33

So, moving right along.

It would seem that the speculation of a Nokia App Store (based upon standardised QT toolkit for S60 and Maemo) was right on the money (forgive me if this isn't new info). It's called the OVI Store (http://store.ovi.com) and is currently accepting publisher registration (https://publish.ovi.com/login).

Considering that Maemo seems to constitute a large part of Nokia's future strategy, and news of the cross platform QT (and Java and flash), it wouldn't be out of place to see these apps find their way into Maemo. It is rumored that Nokia is considering Linux (read: Maemo) for future high-end phones (http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5340331149.html).

Here's the question though: would you mind having closed apps on your open system?

I think it would be a FANTASTIC idea, that would open the tablet to a much broader market, and provide real incentives for developers.

YARR!
}:^)~

Capt'ns Log.....

benny1967

2009-04-13, 07:32

lma

2009-04-13, 09:43

Here's the question though: would you mind having closed apps on your open system?

We already do, including Nokia (http://wiki.maemo.org/Why_the_closed_packages) and third-party (maps, flash, skype & gizmo installers) packages in the stock firmware and packages available elsewhere (garnet, boingo, hava player, rhapsody etc).

From a purely practical point of view, yes I mind (particularly the first category, no one is forced to use the rest or keep them installed to avoid breaking updates) because invariably they get far fewer fixes than the open ones.

However, openness and price are orthogonal, and such an app store doesn't necessarily imply closed-source (leaving aside the GPL implications of certain fruity store & SDK terms). I suspect a lot of current maemo users, myself included, wouldn't mind paying for F/OS packages (and other things being equal would even prefer them to closed alternatives) and the larger "consumer" audience wouldn't know the difference.

benny1967

2009-04-13, 10:36

Here's the question though: would you mind having closed apps on your open system?
we always had closed/proprietary applications on the tablets. as long as i can decide to install/uninstall them, i see no problem. i do use proprietary apps on my desktop, too. it's a decision you have to make for each single application.

proprietary components in the core system are a different issue, but i guess most of us learned to accept those as a part of the maemo reality we can cope with.

and as for an app store: maybe i'd pay. i do pay for software, i am that kind of person.
the question is: if there's a commercial app in the store that i want to have, how likely will it be that i find a free (beer and speech) one with the same functionality somewhere else that runs on the device? probably very likely. it will be interesting to see what kind of applications people will pay for. games? apps that come with data (like navigation apps come with maps)?

tso

2009-04-13, 10:58

on that stylus issue, i guess it depends on how one expect to use the device.

and as always with a open ended device like the tablets, those expectations will wary to a great degree.

sjgadsby

2009-04-13, 11:12

on that stylus issue, i guess it depends on how one expect to use the device.

and as always with a open ended device like the tablets, those expectations will wary to a great degree.

Bah! What kind of response is that? In your time on ITT, have you not learned that one's own use case is definitive and all others aberrations? Sheesh.

ragnar

2009-04-13, 12:44

Dear Nokia:
I heard the most preposterous rumor and I was hoping you could clear things up for me. Is it true that none of your future hand-held linux devices will have a stylus and a stylus holder? Thanks in advance.
daperl

Obviously the future is subject to change, whatever one might now say. But to phrase this issue differently: there are resistive touchscreens and capacitive screens. Resistive screens support styluses, capacitive do not (except special ones, but that's a bad idea).

Now, people seem to prefer capacitive screens in general. To ship a capacitive device, having stylus UI elements is obviously a very bad idea. For a platform, there can of course be many different devices, with differing screen technologies. But branching the UI software would also be a bad idea.

lma

2009-04-13, 13:03

For a platform, there can of course be many different devices, with differing screen technologies. But branching the UI software would also be a bad idea.

Variety is the spice of life - If Nokia hadn't branched their Symbian OS UIs there wouldn't have been a Series 90 so no 7710, hildon or tablets and we wouldn't be arguing finger vs stylus here today ;-)

attila77

2009-04-13, 13:33

Because a stylus sucks for mobile usage. Simple as that.

A finger sucks in just as many (albeit fundamentally different) ways for mobile usage. So what we have here is a discussion about preferred suckage. And let's stop right there.

Now that we have all that covered, let's get on to the real deal, pupil-tracking pointers. Fast, no hands needed, does not obscure the screen, high resolution and much more uniform among human population than fingers. We just need a higher resolution user-facing IR sensitive webcam.

daperl

2009-04-13, 14:09

But to phrase this issue differently: there are resistive touchscreens and capacitive screens. Resistive screens support styluses

Okay, then I'll rephrase:

Will any future Nokia hand-held OMAP3 linux devices have resistive touchscreens? If so, will any of them have a stylus and a stylus holder? And lastly, will these same devices have screen resolutions less than 800x480? Thanks in advance.

jolouis

2009-04-13, 14:10

Now that we have all that covered, let's get on to the real deal, pupil-tracking pointers. Fast, no hands needed, does not obscure the screen, high resolution and much more uniform among human population than fingers. We just need a higher resolution user-facing IR sensitive webcam.
While that might seem like the superior pointer technology I think there are a lot of serious problems with it... namely, discrimination:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp-b5hJ1HCs

Jaffa

2009-04-13, 15:39

Resistive screens support styluses, capacitive do not (except special ones, but that's a bad idea).

Why is it such a bad idea to have a special stylus? The current hardware supports using any physical object to press the screen, a capacitive screen would allow flesh or a special stylus.

I've only ever touched my tablet screen with my finger (or nail) or the supplied stylus (since it's always to hand in the in-build stylus holder).

daperl

2009-04-13, 17:30

benny1967

2009-04-13, 17:39

Now, people seem to prefer capacitive screens in general.
do they? they might be willing to accept the limitations of the technology in a few selected use cases. what they really want is a touchscreen that works. neither capacitive nor resistive do very well today.

shadowjk

2009-04-13, 17:45

tso

2009-04-13, 17:49

If I no longer had a stylus option, touching the screen would still be my last choice. But with laptops, a touch pad is my first choice. So, here's a front and back picture of some 2002 technology (the touch pad of my poor, dead Evo N410c. I miss you). It's wafer thin, cheap and I wouldn't need the buttons. Why can't something like this be on the backplate? Nokia is already going to need one for their netbook. Just have someone reach over to that assembly line and slap it on my tablet. Then you could capacitate till the cows come home. But just to be clear, this would be a compromise; I would still prefer a stylus for my RX-81.

something like this you mean?
http://www.umpcportal.com/2009/04/pseudotransparency-on-nano-touch-devices

sjgadsby

2009-04-13, 17:50

Another thing, has anyone thought about adding a sensor to the sylus holder? Switch to playskool fingerpainting big happy text and icons if stylus is present, switch to stylus-friendly size if user removes stylus from holder..

Yes, that idea has been proposed previously--and to poor reception. I remain unable to turn up the original post or recall who made the initial suggestion, but I mentioned the idea in the "What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?" thread (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=173024#post173024).

GeraldKo

2009-04-13, 18:00

If I no longer had a stylus option, touching the screen would still be my last choice. But with laptops, a touch pad is my first choice. So, here's a front and back picture of some 2002 technology (the touch pad of my poor, dead Evo N410c. I miss you). It's wafer thin, cheap and I wouldn't need the buttons. Why can't something like this be on the backplate? Nokia is already going to need one for their netbook. Just have someone reach over to that assembly line and slap it on my tablet. Then you could capacitate till the cows come home. But just to be clear, this would be a compromise; I would still prefer a stylus for my RX-81.

I had a similar idea (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=278931&postcount=1366) -- to put the D-Pad and other buttons on the back -- which I still really like; but one problem is that the back-mounted device would be unavailable when the Tablet is lying flat on a table (which is a position I never use it in; I'm always holding it).

benny1967

2009-04-13, 18:01

Why can't something like this be on the backplate?
because you don't need to sell devices to customers who use them. you need to sell devices to so called journalists. they have no idea what they're writing about, but to make up for this, they agreed on judging products by certain buzzwords they find on the box. these buzzwords change over time, but for now, we have to live with the fact that one of these buzzwords is "touchscreen". (another one is "intuitive". nobody knows what it actually means in regard to an electronic device, but it has to be printed on the box.)

ragnar

2009-04-13, 18:02

Why is it such a bad idea to have a special stylus? The current hardware supports using any physical object to press the screen, a capacitive screen would allow flesh or a special stylus. I've only ever touched my tablet screen with my finger (or nail) or the supplied stylus (since it's always to hand in the in-build stylus holder).

Actually - and if somebody knows this to be wrong, please correct me, I'm not an expert in the technical side here - the "bad idea" of a capacitive stylus is (well, apart from the physical issues that they all seem to be very big - has anyone seen a tiny capacitive stylus?) that a capacitive screen is simply not as accurate as a resistive screen, because... umm, because the area is large.

Perhaps the size and accuracy issue are connected. Can you even do a tiny capacitive stylus? Why are all the examples I find really big?

lcuk

2009-04-13, 18:08

Actually I want a portable 30+" screen infront of me at distance, and a wireless/laser stylus for input. Touchless touchscreen! Anyone remember duck hunt on nintendo? A N810 stylus-sized device instead of the big pistol..

go buy a wii

Another thing, has anyone thought about adding a sensor to the sylus holder? Switch to playskool fingerpainting big happy text and icons if stylus is present, switch to stylus-friendly size if user removes stylus from holder..

No, the closest to ideal would be a dual format screen.
Capacitive for when you put your grimy fingers on it, resistive for when you use your stylus (or both together)

its expensive and out of the question.

resistive screens are perfect for poking with your finger, but have deficiencies with stroking
cursed things

GeraldKo

2009-04-13, 18:09

I bought this stylus (http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.18827)from DealExtreme for my girlfriend's iPod touch. Maybe it's the particular stylus, but it's clumsy and the screen is much less responsive to it than to a finger. We threw it out.

ragnar

2009-04-13, 18:22

do they? they might be willing to accept the limitations of the technology in a few selected use cases. what they really want is a touchscreen that works. neither capacitive nor resistive do very well today.

Well. It's the sum of the total device, of course. The touch screen technology, the physical screen itself (material etc.), and the hardware and software that interprets the signals from the touch screen (the quality of the original signal, how the drivers possibly filter the signal to get something more reasonable etc.).

Out of the mobile devices that are publicly available that I've tried (and I've tried many, for understandable reasons), the latest Apple iPhone for me provides the most comfortable total touch screen user experience, and by some considerable margin. The capacitive screen isn't of course the only piece of the question, but it is an important part nonetheless.

Resistive technology is not optimal for fingers, I'm sure we can all agree on this part. And capacitive technology is "really not optimal", i.e. not available, for styluses. As somebody said in this thread before, it is about making a choice of what we want to provide, and then eventually doing the best possible UI for that experience. I don't believe in being able to "do both" equally well.

ragnar

2009-04-13, 18:35

Okay, then I'll rephrase: Will any future Nokia hand-held OMAP3 linux devices have resistive touchscreens? If so, will any of them have a stylus and a stylus holder? And lastly, will these same devices have screen resolutions less than 800x480? Thanks in advance.

Sorry, I cannot discuss exact details about future products. Product announcements are done the official way. But you don't need to wait too long anymore. :)

Ultimately the future isn't about any single product. What Maemo does and what kind of devices run Maemo are separate questions.

daperl

2009-04-13, 18:53

Sorry, I cannot discuss exact details about future products. Product announcements are done the official way. But you don't need to wait too long anymore. :)

Awesome

Ultimately the future isn't about any single product. What Maemo does and what kind of devices run Maemo are separate questions.That's great, but I didn't ask about software. I asked 3 hardware questions.

tso

2009-04-13, 19:12

because you don't need to sell devices to customers who use them. you need to sell devices to so called journalists. they have no idea what they're writing about, but to make up for this, they agreed on judging products by certain buzzwords they find on the box. these buzzwords change over time, but for now, we have to live with the fact that one of these buzzwords is "touchscreen". (another one is "intuitive". nobody knows what it actually means in regard to an electronic device, but it has to be printed on the box.)

not just touchscreen, thats been around for a while, the current one is capacitive touchscreen...

i fear both the bloggers/journalists and us here on the fan forum is somewhat distant from the joe customer (if such a being exist).

thing is, it seems its easier to make a device with a narrow set of functions, and have the customer adapt his use pattern, then it is to make a open device where anything can be done, in theory.

hell, one can even have the developers adapt, by requiring that they use tools and libs that only expose a set collection of features and abilities. no touching the hardware or os directly...

qgil

2009-04-13, 19:21

That's great, but I didn't ask about software. I asked 3 hardware questions.

And this is why ragnar said

Sorry, I cannot discuss exact details about future products. Product announcements are done the official way.

benny1967

2009-04-13, 19:27

Well. It's the sum of the total device, of course. The touch screen technology, the physical screen itself (material etc.), and the hardware and software that interprets the signals from the touch screen (the quality of the original signal, how the drivers possibly filter the signal to get something more reasonable etc.).

Out of the mobile devices that are publicly available that I've tried (and I've tried many, for understandable reasons), the latest Apple iPhone for me provides the most comfortable total touch screen user experience, and by some considerable margin. The capacitive screen isn't of course the only piece of the question, but it is an important part nonetheless.

Believe me, I really tried hard, but I cannot disagree on that. ;)

If you set up yourself according to the needs of the hardware (=your fingertips aren't covered), it's by far the best experience as far as the touch screen is concerned. It imposes restrictions, though, on the software. Applications have to adapt to the finger-based UI. Apart from Apple's business modell around all of their products, that's what keeps me from actually using such a thing. (That and their keyboard. Man, I really hate the N800's thumb keyboard, but I'm unable to type even a text message on the Apple VKB...) - I'm not interested in software that's so much restricted by physical UI limitations.

daperl

2009-04-13, 20:01

And this is why ragnar said

No big deal, but you're reading out of context.

qgil

2009-04-13, 20:37

No big deal, but you're reading out of context.

Maybe. I basically see that you are asking Nokia to disclose details about future products (aka hardware) in this thread, and you have two Nokia employees telling you that this won't happen here but in official announcements.

daperl

2009-04-13, 20:51

@qgil

Sorry, I'll try not to be rude by explaining myself better.

Here are some things I'm assuming based on the presentation, Maemo 5 Alpha SDK's,* and forum/IRC rumors:

Fremantle will not have a stylus keyboard
RX-51 will be OMAP3 based and have a resistive touchscreen that is at least 800x480
Fremantle will have a compositing window manager

If all those things are correct, it will be very likey that some form of optionally semi-transparent stylus keyboard could be integrated into the platform. Then this would lead to details about such a keyboard and if it could be ready for product launch. To be fair, I haven't looked that deeply into the Alpha SDK's. But you can bet your a*s I'll be all over the Beta.

If there will be no resistive screen, I can turn my thoughts elsewhere.

I don't think it's too much to ask to know this simple little thing in advance. I actually can, and sometimes do, plan ahead.

*EDIT:

Maybe. I basically see that you are asking Nokia to disclose details about future products (aka hardware) in this thread, and you have two Nokia employees telling you that this won't happen here but in official announcements.

Well, there I have it.

GeraldKo

2009-04-13, 21:17

Watching Kate's presentation, I kept wondering,

What is a compositing window manager?

Bundyo

2009-04-13, 21:18

Compiz for example.

GeraldKo

2009-04-13, 21:24

Compiz for example.

Sounds like practically everything is a compositing window manager these days, from my ignorant reading of the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compositing_window_manager). Isn't the current Maemo a compositing window manager, too?

Bundyo

2009-04-13, 21:28

It fakes one only for desktop applets.

GeneralAntilles

2009-04-13, 21:46

Fremantle will not have a stylus keyboard
RX-51 will be OMAP3 based and have a resistive touchscreen that is at least 800x480
Fremantle will have a compositing window manager

As far as I've been able to tell (and I've been over almost all of the available information) these three things are correct. Items 1 and 3 are certain, item 3 is almost certain.

If all those things are correct, it will be very likey that some form of optionally semi-transparent stylus keyboard could be integrated into the platform.

Good, then get to hacking (http://live.gnome.org/Hildon/HildonInputMethod).

If there will be no resistive screen, I can turn my thoughts elsewhere.

Based on everything I know, the likelihood of having capacitive touchscreens in the next generation of tablets is slim to none (absolute certainty is an impossibility here).

I don't think it's too much to ask to know this simple little thing in advance. I actually can, and sometimes do, plan ahead.

I'm fairly certain you'll have the information you need by the time the beta rolls around. Which, honestly, is probably the first stage at which you'd likely want start working on a stylus keyboard.

Really, though, anything you put together can certainly be used in Mer, so why not start today?

daperl

2009-04-13, 21:51

Sounds like practically everything is a compositing window manager these days, from my ignorant reading of the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compositing_window_manager). Isn't the current Maemo a compositing window manager, too?

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong or inaccurate, but I'm gonna give it a shot anyway.

Maemo's window manager, Matchbox, is not a compositing window manager, but you can still play low-level bixbuf transparency games because GTK has pixbuf composite functions (alpha channel and opacity support). Notice when you move the home applets around that they are opaque till you place them. The application framework makes them transparent, not the window manager.

Bundyo

2009-04-13, 22:19

Just try to make a window transparent :)

daperl

2009-04-14, 01:06

Just try to make a window transparent :)

Well, I think I see what they're doing. They must be keeping a pixbuf moving window that they're updating first thing on move events; the windows move slow and the ghosting seems a bit heavy. My hack below shows a white transparency over the screen just to the left of the dialog. So, I know I'm not far off. Also, they must be using a shape bitmap mask for the non-rectangular applets, which most likely is supported by the X server. Maybe I'll play more later; I haven't done my taxes yet.

#! /usr/bin/env python

import gtk

class awindow(gtk.Window):
def __init__(s):
gtk.Window.__init__(s)
s.set_type_hint(gtk.gdk.WINDOW_TYPE_HINT_DIALOG)
s.connect('destroy', gtk.main_quit)
#rw = s.get_root_window()
rw = gtk.gdk.get_default_root_window()
pbd = gtk.gdk.Pixbuf(gtk.gdk.COLORSPACE_RGB, True, 8, 80, 80)
pbt = gtk.gdk.Pixbuf(gtk.gdk.COLORSPACE_RGB, True, 8, 80, 80)
pbt.fill(0xffffffff)
pb = pbd.get_from_drawable(rw, rw.get_colormap(), 360, 180, 0, 0, 80, 80)
pbt.composite(pb, 0, 0, 80, 80, 0, 0, 1.0, 1.0, gtk.gdk.INTERP_NEAREST, 150)
b = gtk.Button('Press Me')
b.connect('clicked', s.on_clicked)
s.i = gtk.image_new_from_pixbuf(pb)
vb = gtk.VBox(False, 0)
vb.add(s.i)
vb.add(b)
s.add(vb)
s.show_all()

def on_clicked(s, b):
print 'inside'
#rw = s.get_root_window()
rw = gtk.gdk.get_default_root_window()
pbd = gtk.gdk.Pixbuf(gtk.gdk.COLORSPACE_RGB, True, 8, 80, 80)
pbt = gtk.gdk.Pixbuf(gtk.gdk.COLORSPACE_RGB, True, 8, 80, 80)
pbt.fill(0xffffffff)
x, y = s.window.get_origin()
a = s.i.get_allocation()
print 'x y ax ay',x,y,a.x,a.y
sx = x + a.x
sy = y + a.y
pb = pbd.get_from_drawable(rw, rw.get_colormap(), sx-90, sy, 0, 0, 80, 80)
pbt.composite(pb, 0, 0, 80, 80, 0, 0, 1.0, 1.0, gtk.gdk.INTERP_NEAREST, 150)
s.i.set_from_pixbuf(pb)
s.show_all()

if __name__ == "__main__":
w = awindow()
gtk.main()

TheTree

2009-04-14, 03:52

It seems as though there are two sides to the stylus/finger debate: Those who want a finger-optimized UI for convenience and those who want a stylus-based UI for data density and desktop similarities. And then someone mentioned sticking a trackpad on one of these things...

I say we already have a trackpad, it just isn't used as such - usually.

Pardon me while I go on a tangent here. Wacom Pen tablets have this interesting feature: they can be used in pen mode or mouse mode. In mouse mode, it acts like a normal computer mouse. Cursor movement is relative. In pen mode, cursor movement is absolute. That is, each point on the tablet refers to a specific point on the screen.

Touch screens are almost always absolute. Tap on the screen somewhere and a click is registered there. However, there are exceptions, including at least one on the Internet Tablets: Bluemaemo. Bluemaemo can be used to control your Windows or Linux desktop with the touchscreen on your tablet acting like a normal trackpad.

Why not allow people to use the touchscreen as a trackpad for the tablet itself? Most apps can be easily finger optimized and used in a normal, absolute mode. But for data-dense apps like gnumeric, the touchscreen could be switched into a relative cursor movement mode, with a visible cursor.

Perhaps someone with far superior programming knowledge than me could hack something llike this up for Diablo.

And we now return to your regularly scheduled program.

qgil

2009-04-14, 07:46

Fremantle will not have a stylus keyboard
RX-51 will be OMAP3 based and have a resistive touchscreen that is at least 800x480
Fremantle will have a compositing window manager

Alright, these are questions based on what Maemo 5 does and supports. They are useful for your developer plans and this is why... we already answered them. :)

Developers interested in Fremantle can watch the Fremantle roadmap (http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Maemo_roadmap/Fremantle) and the maemo.org announcements (http://maemo.org/news/announcements/). Kate's presentation basically expands on the information published there.

Maemo 5 will support OMAP3 and not OMAP2. This was announced between OSiM World (September 2008) and the first pre-alpha (http://maemo.org/news/announcements/first_maemo_5_sdk_release_targeting_platform_devel opers/).

With the pre-alpha 2 we announced the support to Fremantle Stars (http://maemo.org/news/announcements/0eb8fdfeedec11ddb28e1b3c4d7b308a308a/) projects like liqbase, NumptyPhysics and OSM2Go. Devices compatible with Maemo have been using resistive screens and no changes have been announced in this respect. Considering the implications a move to a capacitive screen would imply for Maemo developers, we would have said something about it while asking application developers to try the alpha SDK.

The alpha SDK announcement mentioned WVGA resolution and SDK itself offers a resolution of 800x480 (http://static.maemo.org/static/m/Maemo5_alpha__SDK_Desktop.png), which is the same Maemo has used since day 1.

Together twith the alpha release we published the Overview of Maemo 5 UI (http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo5_alpha_overview/) where you can quote:

"Removal of stylus keyboard"

"The hildon-desktop process contains a compositing window manager"

If all those things are correct, it will be very likey that some
form of optionally semi-transparent stylus keyboard could be integrated into the platform. Then this would lead to details about such a keyboard and if it could be ready for product launch. To be fair, I haven't looked that deeply into the Alpha SDK's. But you can bet your a*s I'll be all over the Beta.

http://repository.maemo.org/pool/fremantle/free/h/ is a good starting point for you. Hildon Input Method is as open as before.

If there will be no resistive screen, I can turn my thoughts elsewhere.

I don't think it's too much to ask to know this simple little thing in advance. I actually can, and sometimes do, plan ahead.

Understood, and this is why we are doing all these early announcements, pre-releases and presentations.

I don't think it's too much to ask developers to follow the maemo.org announcements. :) Is the easiest way to plan ahead. Kate and also Kimmo Hämälainen have been providing further details in the maemo-developers list every time someone asked. Feel free going there and asking more.

Note that I found your questions here almost as a coincidence, after giving up on following the deviated (and even off-topic?) debate that has taken a good dozen of pages in this thread.

Un27Pee

2009-04-14, 09:03

File chooser - you can see only three items at a time. Maybe the thumb usability of it is high, but it is not very usable...

realy hope that the final release will be more user friendly.

is there any known fact or hint about ext memory two slot like the 800 or one like the 810?

daperl

2009-04-14, 12:13

Good, then get to hacking (http://live.gnome.org/Hildon/HildonInputMethod).

As far as I'm concerned, Nokia and their apologists have taken themselves out of the stylus keyboard conversation. But I'm sure someone will let you know if they need any "input."

Really, though, anything you put together can certainly be used in Mer, so why not start today?

There are so many answers (excuses) for this question. But it was such a great setup for a terrible pun that I just couldn't resist...

daperl

2009-04-14, 12:23

Alright, these are questions based on what Maemo 5 does and supports. They are useful for your developer plans and this is why... we already answered them. :)

You're right. I'm a very slow learner. It finally got through my thick skull. Thanks.

YoDude

2009-04-14, 12:43

realy hope that the final release will be more user friendly.

is there any known fact or hint about ext memory two slot like the 800 or one like the 810?

Perhaps it depends on the user... for on the go file administration functions a stylus does rule. Normal mobile use, not so much. If it can't be done simply by touch maybe the app isn't ready for the device.
Ultimately the easiest way to perform administrative file functions is to SSH from a desktop if you are comfortable with a CLI. An GUI emulator for the desktop may be best for all users though.

Particularly one where the install file is small enough to be kept on the device's own memory card and could be easily transfered and run on most visited desktops.

***

With the N800 I solved the stylus/admin vs touch/user problem by running two different task navigators. I keep all the admin tasks in Command Navigator (http://upir.cz/maemo/cmdnav.php) and user tasks in Personal Menu (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17777).

Until I had the tablet set up to my liking, 80% of my time was spent with stylus/admin tasks... Now 80% is spent just using the dang thing. :)

ARJWright

2009-04-14, 17:25

Something I've not seen, and would like to know, as an fyi more than anything, has there been anything in terms of standarzied gesture support going into M5? For example, the gestures used in Mauku seem like a great starting point and something where the stylus/finger argument would meet at a nice compromise. Would M5 be utilzing these, or is this something on the side (for now)?

Capt'n Corrupt

2009-04-14, 21:22

tso

2009-04-14, 21:53

another thing is the definition of mobile. some think og it as riding a car, buss or similar.

others see it more as a variant of "portable". as in something you carry in your pocket and pull out when sitting at a table or standing still.

under the first definition, anything that cant ve done with one hand will be troublesome, as any bump will have hands/arms moving in all kinds of directions.

under the second, using two hands is perfectly valid, as there will rarely be raandom bumps to deal with.

and i agree on the above idea of relative and absolute, as a relative interface would allow one handed operation.

for instance, my phones built in browser has a pointer now, but one that jumps to "hotspots" in proximity when a direction is quickly pushed.

this allows for easy operation with one hand, even tho there are still some niggles.

i know nokia tried something similar with the early browsers of the tablets. but the flaw there was that it started at the top of the page, not with what was on screen at that moment.

Texrat

2009-04-15, 01:12

Yes, TheTree did a very nice job of detailing a concept I outlined in the abstract to ragnar a few months ago. I was talking at a high level then (modal vs non-modal, etc) and I'm glad to see someone offer a concrete example of how different contexts could provide a different use experience.

Capt'n Corrupt

2009-04-15, 01:30

@Texrat
You pwned me at hello...

*sigh*

The quality of my "jokes" degrade as the hours ware on... Talk to you all in the morn...

Good night, and good luck...

YARR!
}:^)~

Capt'n Alhola

daperl

2009-04-15, 02:50

Why not allow people to use the touchscreen as a trackpad for the tablet itself? Most apps can be easily finger optimized and used in a normal, absolute mode. But for data-dense apps like gnumeric, the touchscreen could be switched into a relative cursor movement mode, with a visible cursor.

Are you only talking about capacitive touch screens? If so, than I agree with you and don't bother reading further. But if you are also talking about resistive touch screens, I couldn't disagree more.

I'm not sure if you were referring to me, but I'm the crazy person who suggested putting a touch pad on the back of a tablet that had a capacitive touch screen. I wouldn't suggest that for a tablet with a resistive touch screen, as I also would never use gnumeric the way you suggest on a tablet with a resistive touch screen. Why would I? I have a stylus and a resistive touch screen. I can pick up the tip and go precisely to a location. Relative cursor movement produced by a mouse or a touch pad is only necessary when your display dimensions are much larger than your tracking area.

benny1967

2009-04-15, 06:13

another thing is the definition of mobile. some think og it as riding a car, buss or similar.

others see it more as a variant of "portable". as in something you carry in your pocket and pull out when sitting at a table or standing still.
this is exactly what i'm trying to say... "mobile" (bus, car, ...) vs. "portable" (pocket).

i'm still convinced that the form factor of the current tablets makes them far too big and heavy for mobile use. the next device could be different, but AFAIK they assume its screen will be roughly the same size, so it probably won't be much smaller.
also, nobody can convince me that a touchscreen is a good input device for a bumpy bus ride, anyway. hardware keys are.

given all this, i just can't understand why they're trying to optimize a UI for a use case that's ruled out in the first place by two other factors.

YoDude

2009-04-15, 11:50

this is exactly what i'm trying to say... "mobile" (bus, car, ...) vs. "portable" (pocket).

i'm still convinced that the form factor of the current tablets makes them far too big and heavy for mobile use. the next device could be different, but AFAIK they assume its screen will be roughly the same size, so it probably won't be much smaller.
also, nobody can convince me that a touchscreen is a good input device for a bumpy bus ride, anyway. hardware keys are.

given all this, i just can't understand why they're trying to optimize a UI for a use case that's ruled out in the first place by two other factors.

Ah!, you must be under the age of 40. :p

As far as using the touch screen for navigation go >>here<< (http://home.comcast.net/~fynspy/Doppler.htm).

That^ uses a transparent image map to define hot spots on the tablets screen that are used for navigation. This image map has to be coded into each page though... >>click<< (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28221)

In my perfect world the tablet would have a hardware key that toggles these "hot spots" and makes them available to every application. Each application could use them independently or provide a means for the user to assign his or her own functions. When the app in the foreground changes, those functions might change auto-magically or be toggled on or off by the user all together.

ragnar

2009-04-15, 12:29

it's not so much the stylus as a physical accessory. i'm used to buying add-ons each time nokia ruins this device.
the real problem isn't the hardware. it's the software. once you decide you'll only support finger use, you'll need to create a UI that's less powerful. you'll need to re-design existing desktop applications only because of the UI, even if they'd run without any change technically. (look at the preferences-screen of Xchat. i cannot imagine this within a fingerpainting environment.)
what makes the tablets so powerful is that they're so close to a standard GNU/linux desktop system that even GUI applications can run without a lot of change. this is the only reason why i'm using a tablet. i'm afraid this feature will be lost.

Once you decide that you support finger use, you need to change your paradigm from desktop applications to mobile applications. They will be "less powerful" in terms of not having the breadth (and the depth) of their desktop counterparts, but they will be more powerful and more usable in the selected mobile use cases than simply trying to utilize the desktop UI into a small device.

It's like Henry Ford, but in the opposite direction: We have a desktop application, a horse. Trying to maintain the current desktop/stylus UI's as such is as like breeding smaller horses. Yes, you can perhaps breed a small horse, and it might superficially look cute on a small screen, but using it reminds you all the time, and rather painfully, that it's ultimately a crappy experience compared "to the real thing". It's not a strong or fast or easy to ride.

Trying to compete with desktop computing on its terms will fail. The devices have small screens, cramped input methods, less power, less storage etc, poor mouse adaptation etc.

Mobile devices need mobile UI's, taking use of the strong suits of the device, instead of trying to emulate the strong suits of the desktop environment. You need to create dogs (or choose the useful pet of your personal preference), not smaller horses.

tso

2009-04-15, 12:36

i keep having a "they want to do WHAT, when WHAT?!" moments when i read some of the use cases pro/con some interface...

its like people is living their lives on the nose of a rocket at speed, as they seem to be doing just about anything while moving about.

benny1967

2009-04-15, 12:38

Ah!, you must be under the age of 40. :p

*sigh*
I know... It's my athletic body and firm skin that makes people think that. A curse, I tell you. A curse.

benny1967

2009-04-15, 12:54

Mobile devices need mobile UI's, taking use of the strong suits of the device, instead of trying to emulate the strong suits of the desktop environment. You need to create dogs (or choose the useful pet of your personal preference), not smaller horses.

Again, I can't disagree. You're not as challenging as you used to be. ;)

Mobile devices need mobile UIs, right. A 4.1 inch touch screen on a 226g device isn't a good mobile UI. If you're looking for a good mobile UI, I recommend the 6110 Navigator. Having the choice of various "connected" gadgets (and the ones with the capacitive touch screen we talked about earlier were on the list once), I chose this one for mobile use. Because it does not rely on a touchscreen but is fully operable with its hardware keys. Because its 125g are still too much, but not way to much. Because it fits my pockets. Most important, though:
i keep having a "they want to do WHAT, when WHAT?!" moments when i read some of the use cases pro/con some interface...

its like people is living their lives on the nose of a rocket at speed, as they seem to be doing just about anything while moving about.
Because it lets me do exactly these things tso talks about... things that everybody would expect to be absolutely non-mobile use cases but can be done while walking with the S60 UI. I need to look at the device only 30% of the time and can focus on aggressive lamp posts and these wonderful things you see now it's getting warmer and people... well. A touch screen can never deliver this mobile experience. It needs my undevided visual attention.
So, if you want the dog instead of the small horse, leave the horse big as it is (read: go back to OS2006) and make a non-touchscreen variant for mobile use.

kanishou

2009-04-15, 13:55

So, if you want the dog instead of the small horse, leave the horse big as it is (read: go back to OS2006) and make a non-touchscreen variant for mobile use.

I want a dragon.

OS2006 was a pony at best, you just can't compare it to a real "horse". Fremantle is a completely different beast. And it spits fire.

sjgadsby

2009-04-15, 14:01

Fremantle is a completely different beast. And it spits fire.

I'm familiar with the concept (http://www.infoworld.com/t/networking/nokia-cell-phone-battery-explodes-in-night-604), but I worry it will make the devices less pocketable.

TA-t3

2009-04-15, 14:07

TenSpeed

2009-04-15, 14:12

Any chance a few of us are mistaking the simplicity of an interface for the simplicity of the underlying application(s)? These are worlds apart, if done correctly.

Btw, did anyone following this thread see "Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation"? ;)

lemmyslender

2009-04-15, 15:42

My N800 w/OS2007 lets me leave my laptop back at the office. If the UI is dumbed down to a level where my NIT can't do the "desktop" things that I do _now_, then I'll be very annoyed indeed. .

This is what I'm afraid of the move from a "portable" device to a "mobile" device.

A nice finger friendly "mobile" UI is great on my phone which I can quickly use as an mp3 player, respond to a text message or two, read an email (not respond unless a short response is required), quickly browse the web.

What I bought my N800 for was use as an "portable" actually perhaps more accurately "ultra-portable" (when compared to netbooks) device/usage. I can use it to check/respond to emails that require longer responses, watch movies on the larger screen, review maintain spreadsheets/documents, sort through hundreds of photos / files on easily changeable sd cards, and much much more.

I already have a "mobile" device (phone) and a "portable" device (laptop). I was hoping for another toy to fill the gap between the two such as the current tablets.

It would be a very difficult decision to spend more money on a "mobile" device with only slight advantages despite the astronomically better hardware (from my humble point of view).

daperl

2009-04-15, 16:03

It would be a very difficult decision to spend more money on a "mobile" device with only slight advantages despite the astronomically better hardware (from my humble point of view).

I've submitted your definition of "frustration" to Websters. Good work.

TheTree

2009-04-15, 16:03

Are you only talking about capacitive touch screens? If so, than I agree with you and don't bother reading further. But if you are also talking about resistive touch screens, I couldn't disagree more.

I'm not sure if you were referring to me, but I'm the crazy person who suggested putting a touch pad on the back of a tablet that had a capacitive touch screen. I wouldn't suggest that for a tablet with a resistive touch screen, as I also would never use gnumeric the way you suggest on a tablet with a resistive touch screen. Why would I? I have a stylus and a resistive touch screen. I can pick up the tip and go precisely to a location.

Yes, I was referring to you. And I agree that this would work best with a capacitive screen and not a resistive one.

Relative cursor movement produced by a mouse or a touch pad is only necessary when your display dimensions are much larger than your tracking area.

In this I disagree with you. In most cases, yes, relative movement is unnecessary, especially if a stylus is available. However, if Nokia drops the support for a stylus, then relative cursor movement can provide much greater accuracy than a finger can, making it much easier to use apps like Gnumeric or Abiword.

mobiledivide

2009-04-15, 17:44

My N800 w/OS2007 lets me leave my laptop back at the office. If the UI is dumbed down to a level where my NIT can't do the "desktop" things that I do _now_, then I'll be very annoyed indeed. God I hate that "let's" make an UI with big friendly 5 choices" attitude that I sometimes sense here.

Is fremantle so changed that all of the hard work done on alternate environments and booting debian ports like the openoffice etc will be impossible to use? The way I see it with Maemo5 and the Rx-51 there is simply a new overlay which might/might not be more noob friendly than Diablo. This updated maemo OS will run on much better hardware that will make what we do on our N8x0's seem like something from 2006.

The promotion of Maemo to forum Nokia for official developer support and the inclusion of the Ovi Store will add the commercial layer that a lot of users feel is lacking in our current ecosystem.

Kate talks about animation libraries and a direction for Maemo that I have no problem with. I look at Mac OSX that is a combination of simple accessible window manager style over a pretty powerful and stable base.

I think if the Rx-51 was a capacitive touch screen and Maemo5 was locked down like the iPhone OSX I would have much to complain about. As it is all I see in the future is all the great things from the device I use now, with added power and a pretty animated launcher.

daperl

2009-04-15, 17:45

In this I disagree with you. In most cases, yes, relative movement is unnecessary, especially if a stylus is available. However, if Nokia drops the support for a stylus, then relative cursor movement can provide much greater accuracy than a finger can, making it much easier to use apps like Gnumeric or Abiword.

Yes, that's why this thread is so long. And there's no "if." It's done. Read the presentation. No Nokian has come on here and refuted that any part of it is inaccurate. Stylus support will have to be ported. To be fair, they dropped this bomb no later than January. But that doesn't mean it's cool. I would say quite the opposite. It's mildly sadistic, actually. They're gonna take this b*tchin' hardware and peddle it to the likes of iPhone users right in front of my face.

lemmyslender

2009-04-15, 19:32

I've submitted your definition of "frustration" to Websters. Good work.

Thankyou, not my intention to add to the definition of frustration :D

I believe it to be correct that the next tablets will not be phones, although they may have a cellular data connection.

This means that I would still have to carry a phone (not that I want a convergent device anyway, but that's a different discussion). My phone is already capable of playing mp3's, checking email, checking the web, taking photo's. So I already have a device that meets my basic "mobile" needs.

If I need to, I can bring a laptop along and enjoy a full-fledged computing experience when I reach my destination.

However, in most cases I don't want / have room / *need* to take my laptop. This is where the tablets come in. I find it useful to have a device that I can use comfortably to do many tasks similar to those on my laptop (although not quite as easily). Tasks that I would find near impossible / extremely annoying to do on my phone, even if it had the power to do them.

I am looking for something *hopefully* pocketable, that is almost a laptop.

I just bought my N800 in November, and a month ago would have gladly plopped down $350-$400 on a new tablet when it comes out. This was based on the current interface style and the community.

Now, I will wait to what kind of cases (with stylus accommodations) are available, and how quickly the ui is hacked (beyond my skills) to become more usable for what I am looking for.

In the meantime there are other things out there competing for my money and attention which could further delay any purchase.

attila77

2009-04-15, 20:22

I think if the Rx-51 was a capacitive touch screen and Maemo5 was locked down like the iPhone OSX I would have much to complain about. As it is all I see in the future is all the great things from the device I use now, with added power and a pretty animated launcher.

Come to think of it, i *would* mind/be disappointed if all Nokia manages to make out of maemo is an iPhone clone family which is sort of legally jailbroken.

jolouis

2009-04-16, 13:32

Yes, that's why this thread is so long. And there's no "if." It's done. Read the presentation. No Nokian has come on here and refuted that any part of it is inaccurate. Stylus support will have to be ported. To be fair, they dropped this bomb no later than January. But that doesn't mean it's cool. I would say quite the opposite.
I haven't had a chance to go through the whole presentation yet (my plan for this evening), but my understanding from reading the thread and what others have discussed is that there will no longer be a stylus-oriented virtual keyboard. This, I assume, does not mean the stylus has been completely eliminated from the device, just that it's not longer considered to be necessary for text input. Again correct me if I'm wrong here guys... but to ship a next gen tablet that didn't have any kind of stylus/precision pointing device is contradictory to the whole concept of the tablet (i.e. what's the point in the nice high res, super dense screen if you can only interact with it with your relatively enormous finger; I have a hard enough time as it is hitting links on web pages and things sometimes... now I mean if Nokia's changing their target market to young ladies with only the most delicate fingers then alright, but I would have thought THAT would be in the technology presentations ;o) ).

ARJWright

2009-04-16, 14:03

I haven't had a chance to go through the whole presentation yet (my plan for this evening), but my understanding from reading the thread and what others have discussed is that there will no longer be a stylus-oriented virtual keyboard. This, I assume, does not mean the stylus has been completely eliminated from the device, just that it's not longer considered to be necessary for text input. Again correct me if I'm wrong here guys... but to ship a next gen tablet that didn't have any kind of stylus/precision pointing device is contradictory to the whole concept of the tablet (i.e. what's the point in the nice high res, super dense screen if you can only interact with it with your relatively enormous finger; I have a hard enough time as it is hitting links on web pages and things sometimes... now I mean if Nokia's changing their target market to young ladies with only the most delicate fingers then alright, but I would have thought THAT would be in the technology presentations ;o) ).

Simply speaking, the point of doing so would mean that something else on the UI-input side of things has been addressed to compensate for this. It is most probably a combination of hardware (refinements to resistive screen tech) and software (maginification, gestures, multi-touch, etc) that when programmed into Maemo 5, offers just as many, if not more scaleable options than not having those, and relying still on the two pronged approach of finger for some/stylus for some.

attila77

2009-04-16, 14:24

This, I assume, does not mean the stylus has been completely eliminated from the device, just that it's not longer considered to be necessary for text input.

Not just for text input. According to the presentation the tablet should be usable without a stylus.

what's the point in the nice high res, super dense screen if you can only interact with it with your relatively enormous finger;

The argument was I believe 'people prefer finger UIs'. It was not apparent to me why exactly this is the case except of a 'stylii suck' exclamation. That and 'and the iPhone UI is so cool'.

Relevant parts of the pdf:
• For Pocket/handheld sized mobile devices
• Internet oriented devices, best browsing experience that you can get in pocket size device
• Small form factor 800x480 screen
• Finger optimized touch screen
• On screen virtual keyboard or mobile optimized small size qwerty keyboard
• Maemo is not for desktops
• Maemo is not for small low resolution screen mobile phones
• No stuff that wont fit in your pocket
• No need for hard disk
• No need full size keyboard
• No mouse
• No need for big heavy battery
• No need for big screen
• No stuff that spoils your internet experience
• No keyboard only navigation
• No mini siz e low resolution screen
• Not limited to one toolkit
Improved usability
• Designed for finger usage, not depending of stylus
• No small UI elements
• Scrolling from content pane, not small scrollbars
• Improved dialog layout
• Compositing window manager

A glimpse of all this can be seen in the alpha/beta SDK. What exactly happens to usability outside of Maemo-optimized/default applications is yet unclear to me.

lemmyslender

2009-04-16, 14:51

I think some of the Nokians have replied to this thread. *I* don't think that it would be a major secret / breach if someone had replied confirming the existence of a stylus.

It would have been easy to say the UI is changing, but the stylus will remain. Being that this hasn't occurred, I must conclude that silence=confirmation (or at least lack of certainty on the subject, which isn't good either).

Therefore, my only conclusion is that the next tablets will be stylus-free.

pycage

2009-04-16, 15:01

Being that this hasn't occurred, I must conclude that silence=confirmation (or at least lack of certainty on the subject, which isn't good either).

Or NDA. They risk their jobs if they tell too much about the new hardware.

Capt'n Corrupt

2009-04-16, 15:08

Well, whatever Nokia does, I hope it's something that the market wants. I've just read that their Q1 profits are down 90% from this time last year (http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2009/04/16/nokias-profits-drop-90-in-q1-2009/).

YARR!
}:^)~

Nasdaq symbol: CRPT

attila77

2009-04-16, 15:15

kanishou

2009-04-16, 15:34

Also, don't mix maemo (as a platform) with exact devices. Maemo as a platform would be foolish not to support styluses at any level. The devices themselves OTOH may or may not have a stylus (as the stylus/mouse comes across to me as a compatibility device), I can see it going both ways. It will be mighty funny using Claws, Pidgin or Abiword on a stylusless devices (and these are not Fremantle stars, so I don't see a massive effort making them figer/fremantle friendly). OTOH liqbase *is* a FS participant, and it does rely on stylus input quite heavily so barring extreme lcuk shenanigans, at least SOME of the devices should have precision input. :)

How would you even define stylus support by the famework? If it's finger-usable, it's stylus-usable. The only way not to support stylus input is something like a capacity screen, which doesn't recognize the touch of non-human objects.

And silence of Nokia employees cannot be taken as confirmation for anything. Nobody will risk their job by talking about unannounced hardware details, no matter how safe it might seem. :)

attila77

2009-04-16, 16:03

If it's finger-usable, it's stylus-usable. The only way not to support stylus input is something like a capacity screen, which doesn't recognize the touch of non-human objects.

It's not that difficult to make a (pencil shape) stylus incompatible UI. Multi touch operations, gestures, pressure patterns can all make stylus use very difficult, if not impossible.

Jaffa

2009-04-16, 16:16

How would you even define stylus support by the famework? If it's finger-usable, it's stylus-usable. The only way not to support stylus input is something like a capacity screen, which doesn't recognize the touch of non-human objects.

Quim also pointed out somewhere (which I can't be bothered to find) that one or two of the Fremantle Stars (i.e. liqbase) work best with a stylus.

kanishou

2009-04-16, 16:18

It's not that difficult to make a (pencil shape) stylus incompatible UI. Multi touch operations, gestures, pressure patterns can all make stylus use very difficult, if not impossible.

Good point about multi-touch, but the other two don't seem stylus-incompatible to me. And all those things are usually complementary actions, so it should not get in the way at least. Although the multi touch pinching on the iPhone might be fairly essential to the browsing experience.

ARJWright

2009-04-16, 16:30

It's not that difficult to make a (pencil shape) stylus incompatible UI. Multi touch operations, gestures, pressure patterns can all make stylus use very difficult, if not impossible.

Its not impossible, one just has to think about a stylus as an additive to UI-input, rather than the primary.

I've written about it here: http://tabletui.wordpress.com/2008/05/16/addressing-the-stylus-driven-ui/

daperl

2009-04-16, 16:44

And silence of Nokia employees cannot be taken as confirmation for anything. Nobody will risk their job by talking about unannounced hardware details, no matter how safe it might seem. :)

It seems that you're interjecting in the middle of a conversation and thus your context is incorrect. The chronology of events is this:

Nokia employee makes a presentation with the bullet item "Removal of stylus keyboard"
Nokia community members comment
other Nokia employees remain silent or do not refute presentation

It was their silence after the non-silence that some have found telling.

lemmyslender

2009-04-16, 16:47

Fair enough, I should have taken into account NDA's.

However, I think that I've seen a strong bias towards the "finger-friendly" portions of the UI.

What exactly happens to usability outside of Maemo-optimized/default applications is yet unclear to me.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. There has been a disturbing lack of information in this regard. Combine that with information from the presentation, and it certainly seems as though at least one new tablet will (possiibly) be stylus free. Given my wants/needs I fear that a stylus free model would be one that I would otherwise be interested in.

mobiledivide

2009-04-16, 17:31

What part of certain projects that Nokia are helping developers with use a stylus do users not understand. This stylus vs finger input business is bordering on crazy-talk. Its a resistive touchscreen, Nokia are expecting us to use Liqbase and Numpty Physics on it, if the device ships without a stylus and only a plectrum so be it buy an aftermarket stylus for $1.
I for one will be using my fingers and a stylus on the RX-51 and looking forward to QT cross platform applications delivered over the Ovi store as well as my 'pearls' such as FB reader and Liqbase.
If the device is as easy to use as an iphone and also has the versatility of my N810 running Diablo who is complaining? I must be not getting something here maybe someone can explain to me?

ragnar

2009-04-16, 18:35

It seems that you're interjecting in the middle of a conversation and thus your context is incorrect. The chronology of events is this:

Nokia employee makes a presentation with the bullet item "Removal of stylus keyboard"
Nokia community members comment
other Nokia employees remain silent or do not refute presentation

It was their silence after the non-silence that some have found telling.

Perhaps you find it telling, but it is not supposed to be telling.

The things that Kate writes in her powerpoint are valid as such, but reading "more" or between the lines is speculation, and commenting on speculation about hardware, be it positive or negative commenting, isn't really advantageous to us Nokians.

attila77

2009-04-16, 18:58

If the device is as easy to use as an iphone and also has the versatility of my N810 running Diablo who is complaining? I must be not getting something here maybe someone can explain to me?

From the previous talk in this thread, I see three main points of concern:

- compromises will be made (without stylus alternative) which could mean dumbing the UI down to make it 'finger compatible'. See the file chooser dialog of the Fremantle alpha, or the way canola handles settings.

- stylus advocates don't want aftermarket styluses and cords dangling from their pockets

- you don't get to keep Diablo's *full* versatility as there are components that are officially deprecated -> like the aforementioned stylus on-screen keyboard

EDIT: For me, the most important question is the first one, and I think it can be answered by knowledgeable people as it relates to maemo and Fremantle, not a particular device.

qgil

2009-04-16, 20:04

Quim also pointed out somewhere (which I can't be bothered to find) that one or two of the Fremantle Stars (i.e. liqbase) work best with a stylus.

It was in this thread, dozens of posts above (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=279454&postcount=137).

About "the silence of Nokia", the guys that you will find here including myself simply don't talk about hardware. Even less about non announced devices. Not even the color of the battery.

Said that, we have talked about Fremantle, and a lot. The fact that Kate's slides cause so many surprises makes me wonder how many people engaged in this thread is aware about the roadmap (http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Maemo_roadmap/Fremantle), announcements and documentation published weeks/months ago.

And then it is also about asking questions in the right places. Here you have ragnar and myself following and answering in a thread (among many) approaching the 200 posts, most of them purely speculative and beyond the original topic of the thread. It would be nice to spend our whole working day following forums, blogs, bugs and chats but then... when would we do the really productive work we are paid for?

We follow ITt so posting your questions in new, on-topic threads does help. Following the maemo.org announcements (where you can post your comments) help as well. And if you have thoughts about Kate's presentation sharing them with her will help you getting direct answers:

Maemo presentations in ELC (http://blogs.forum.nokia.com/blog/kate-alholas-forum-nokia-blog/2009/04/08/maemo-presentations-in-elc) - O comments. :/

Jaffa

2009-04-16, 20:36

It was in this thread, dozens of posts above (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=279454&postcount=137).

Thanks.

About "the silence of Nokia", the guys that you will find here including myself simply don't talk about hardware. Even less about non announced devices. Not even the color of the battery.

<irony>Aha! So you're confirming it will have a battery?!</irony>

And then it is also about asking questions in the right places. Here you have ragnar and myself following and answering in a thread (among many) approaching the 200 posts, most of them purely speculative and beyond the original topic of the thread. It would be nice to spend our whole working day following forums, blogs, bugs and chats but then... when would we do the really productive work we are paid for?

Indeed. It's also frustrating to non-Nokians who attempt to add value, but when faced with rampant fear-mongering and panicking about an incomplete UI, a developer presentation and the lack of a comment either way from anyone in an official capacity - despite repeated attempts to reassure... I despair.

neatojones

2009-04-16, 20:56

Thanks.
<irony>Aha! So you're confirming it will have a battery?!</irony>

That was hilarious

daperl

2009-04-16, 21:33

The fact that Kate's slides cause so many surprises makes me wonder how many people engaged in this thread is aware about the roadmap (http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Maemo_roadmap/Fremantle), announcements and documentation published weeks/months ago.

I did a quick binary search with the help of the roadmap's history (26/11/2008 - 25/03/2009) and "styl" didn't appear in any revision I looked at. I didn't find anything interesting in the 12 hits when I searched maemo.org for "stylus." Kate's presentation is dated April 7, 2009. Without reading between the lines, where else would I find a "Removal of stylus keyboard" type of announcement? I will defend you to your boss if they don't understand that it's not a hardware keyboard.

VDVsx

2009-04-16, 22:47

I did a quick binary search with the help of the roadmap's history (26/11/2008 - 25/03/2009) and "styl" didn't appear in any revision I looked at. I didn't find anything interesting in the 12 hits when I searched maemo.org for "stylus." Kate's presentation is dated April 7, 2009. Without reading between the lines, where else would I find a "Removal of stylus keyboard" type of announcement?

In Kate's presentation at Bossa conference for e.g (March 10, 2009) :P

YoDude

2009-04-17, 00:55

Thanks.

<irony>Aha! So you're confirming it will have a battery?!</irony>

The fact that he mentioned color leads me to believe that we won't be getting the clear battery. :mad:

:p

GeneralAntilles

2009-04-17, 01:16

It's not that difficult to make a (pencil shape) stylus incompatible UI. Multi touch operations, gestures, pressure patterns can all make stylus use very difficult, if not impossible.

Multi-touch requires capacitive (at least, any sane and truly usable implementation does), and gestures and pressure aren't in the least finger-dependent.

I don't see a valid point in your post.

GeneralAntilles

2009-04-17, 01:21

I agree wholeheartedly with this. There has been a disturbing lack of information in this regard. Combine that with information from the presentation, and it certainly seems as though at least one new tablet will (possiibly) be stylus free. Given my wants/needs I fear that a stylus free model would be one that I would otherwise be interested in.

There's plenty of information, it's just that many of the posters in this thread seem dead-set on ignoring it.

attila77

2009-04-17, 07:36

Multi-touch requires capacitive (at least, any sane and truly usable implementation does), and gestures and pressure aren't in the least finger-dependent.

You missed the context. The original claim was "If it's finger-usable, it's stylus-usable" and was not referring to either Fremantle nor a particular device. I was disputing the claim that's the case in *ALL* implementations.

Also, given the repeated finger oriented statements, I believe it's just as speculative to assume no maemo device will sport a capacitive screen as to assume they won't. Again, we're not talking about RX-51.

GeneralAntilles

2009-04-17, 08:42

You missed the context. The original claim was "If it's finger-usable, it's stylus-usable" and was not referring to either Fremantle nor a particular device. I was disputing the claim that's the case in *ALL* implementations.

In the context of Maemo and the RX-51, that claim is correct.

Also, given the repeated finger oriented statements, I believe it's just as speculative to assume no maemo device will sport a capacitive screen as to assume they won't. Again, we're not talking about RX-51.

I think it's pretty safe to assume that it wont be in this generation. Which is the generation we're talking about. Future generations don't fit the topic of "Fremantle", and are outside the scope of this thread.

attila77

2009-04-17, 09:21

In the context of Maemo and the RX-51, that claim is correct.

It's not about how big your context is, but how you use it. (that's a joke there)

I think it's pretty safe to assume that it wont be in this generation.

What do you base this assumption on ? More devices have been hinted, and Nokia is not any more the sole manufacturer of hardware that has been demostrated with maemo and available to the general public. I can, for example fully envision one Fremantle device shipped with resistive screen and a stylus, and another one with a capacitive screen without an included stylus, if the opening presentation is right about the stylus being optional for the UI.

javispedro

2009-04-17, 11:27

Why not leave the whole thing as is? Most applications "main window" are using finger-able elements, like big toolbar buttons, fat scrollbars, etc. Most secondary "utility dialogs" are using small widgets, usable only with a stylus.

When the PalmOS was designed, Palm knew the average user would not even know what the hardware menu key is for. Even then, the bundled applications were designed so that the user could access around 10% of the functionality -- the most used features.
Advanced users would knew about the menu key, and use it to gain access to the other 90% of functionality.

I think that Maemo should fully go that way. Applications should be designed so that, using one's finger, one should be able to access 10% most used features of the application: opening, reading, searching, maybe deleting/archiving.
Users requiring more functionality can take out the stylus and fiddle with the device menus, and settings dialogs.

I just can't imagine an XMMP/POP3 advanced settings dialog "finger-friendly". I CAN imagine, though, a finger-friendly "mail account wizard" that will fulfill most requeriments of 90% of the users.

Sorry if this message din't make any sense.

daperl

2009-04-17, 12:25

I respect that you guys can't answer any hardware questions. But how about one last simple software question:

Will any official Nokia release of Maemo 5 contain a non-fullscreen, virtual stylus keyboard?

GeneralAntilles

2009-04-17, 12:35

Will any official Nokia release of Maemo 5 contain a non-fullscreen, virtual stylus keyboard?

You can't answer this one yourself from the presentation?

qgil

2009-04-17, 12:57

The virtual keyboard used until Diablo for stylus use has been dropped in Fremantle, as said in the alpha SDK documentation. I have linked to it when answering your previous questions. Full screen finger friendly keyboard is the one and only virtual keyboard we are developing.

Hildon Input Method allows third parties to develop and offer own alternatives.

daperl

2009-04-17, 14:17

You can't answer this one yourself from the presentation?

It's common for the state of shock to cause disbelief.

benny1967

2009-04-17, 19:06

Capt'n Corrupt

2009-04-18, 00:26

I'd rather hope it's something I want.

I *like* the tablets. I think it's a wonderful innovation. I would rather Nokia satisfy the market, and thus ensure the future of the tablet, even if certain decisions are counter to my wants. Wouldn't you?

YARR!
}:^)~
Corrupt's Log

mullf

2009-04-18, 02:00

The virtual keyboard used until Diablo for stylus use has been dropped in Fremantle

Sounds to me like it should be called Dismantle. :-/

mullf

2009-04-18, 02:01

Capt'n Corrupt

2009-04-18, 03:06

If it's not something I want anymore, why should I care if it lives or dies?

I was not implying the case of not wanting the tablet. It is possible to dislike some engineering decisions and still want the tablet. Such is the case with my beloved N810.

But to answer your question:
Whether you care or not is up to you. However, some people care about the satiation of others. I've made friends on this board, and even if I didn't want the future NIT, I would still prefer it 'lived,' for their benefit.

YARR!
}:^)~
?Capt'n Corrupt?

benny1967

2009-04-18, 08:09

I *like* the tablets. I think it's a wonderful innovation. I would rather Nokia satisfy the market, and thus ensure the future of the tablet, even if certain decisions are counter to my wants. Wouldn't you?
no. what good is it to ensure the future of the tablets if it can only be done by changing the concept of the tablets in a way that in the end they're not what i once liked anymore, back in 2006, when i bought my 770?

this is a purely theoretical question ATM because i'll still buy an RX-51, no matter how they change maemo... i'm too curious. :)

allnameswereout

2009-04-18, 11:45

This is what I'm afraid of the move from a "portable" device to a "mobile" device.

A nice finger friendly "mobile" UI is great on my phone which I can quickly use as an mp3 player, respond to a text message or two, read an email (not respond unless a short response is required), quickly browse the web.

What I bought my N800 for was use as an "portable" actually perhaps more accurately "ultra-portable" (when compared to netbooks) device/usage. I can use it to check/respond to emails that require longer responses, watch movies on the larger screen, review maintain spreadsheets/documents, sort through hundreds of photos / files on easily changeable sd cards, and much much more.

I already have a "mobile" device (phone) and a "portable" device (laptop). I was hoping for another toy to fill the gap between the two such as the current tablets.

It would be a very difficult decision to spend more money on a "mobile" device with only slight advantages despite the astronomically better hardware (from my humble point of view).The goal is to have the software out of box find the best balance between "mobile" and "portable" taking advantage of the hardware as outlined by ragnar here (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=279748&postcount=150). Because a new Maemo-based device by Nokia is more aimed at mainstream than previous devices the out of box experience also becomes more important. That the out of box experience of a device is not the experience a hacker, developer or power user wants is a given and is also the case with other devices (DAPs, smartphones, laptops, cameras, fridges, coffee machines, and so on).

You are free to modify your experience which software-wise, unlike in the case of Apple iPhone, is endorsed by Nokia. Heck, even encouraged! This allows you to for example -as you stated you prefer- run desktop applications on your tablet. Because, as appears in this topic, there is demand for desktop and stylus optimized UI paradigms you can rest assure this will be available 3rd party, and you're free to contribute. It just won't work like that out of the box (for reason, see above).

Providing traditional desktop applications has been possible on "mobile" devices too. There are folks who run VNC clients and torrent clients on their smartphone. Not my cup of tea, not part of the out of box experience, but it is possible.

Ofcourse, you're still limited by the hardware. Not having a T9 or TrackPoint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trackpoint#Comparison_with_touchpads), the type of screen (capacitative or resistive) is a hardware design choice one cannot easily circumvent. Although there are mods (1 (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27113), 2 (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23205)) which work around design choices of N810.

lemmyslender

2009-04-18, 12:34

To borrow part of ragnars' metaphor:

Automobiles are like the current desktop/laptop computers, powerful, endless variety suited to your needs, easy to use, and will get you where you want to go.

Bicycles are like the current mobile devices, not very powerful, far less variety, easy to use, will get you where you need to go.

Some people have bicycles with small motors on them similar to the current smart phones. They are more powerful than bicycles, but a little harder to use, and a lot fewer of them out there.

Motorcycles are like the current tablets. A little bigger than a bicycle, a lot more powerful, harder to use than a bicycle, and similar to a car to use.

Nokia seems to be going for a moped with the new tablets. Trying to combine the strengths of a bicycle and motorcycle in a pretty package. More powerful than a bicycle, and unfortunately more powerful than the current motorcycles. Not quite as easy to use as a bicycle, easier to use than a motorcycle, and although more powerful than a motorcycle, ultimately constrained by the pretty package making them less useful than a motorcycle.

Sure, some people will figure out ways to remove parts of the pretty package to unleash their full potential, but this is really a very small subset.

I believe sales numbers in go along the lines of cars > bicycles > motorcycles >> mopeds. I believe this is what may happen with the new tablets which would be very bad. A lot of people already have a car and a bicycle. Some also get a motorcycle as an exciting toy (way more fun than a bicycle and able to replace a car in a pinch). Very few people would get a car, bicycle, and a moped.

I'm more concerned about the software than the existence of an actual stylus (I have plenty lying around from previous devices). I would much prefer a device capable of holding a stylus without a third party add-on or a case being required, but ultimately the software is the real issue.

The question is: If the next devices will have hardware keyboards why keep an on screen keyboard at all? If it makes sense to have an on screen keyboard, why not keep both? Surely, that does not take up much more resources or time to support. By getting rid of the stylus keyboard, and having a finger based ui, from a cost standpoint, it would make sense to eliminate the stylus entirely.

PS. I can use/play with both liqbase and numpty physics with my finger? Numpty is a little harder, and more of a challenge, but certainly neither *require* a stylus to use.

I also apologize for any grammar, or spelling errors, or any run-on sentences, etc.

attila77

2009-04-18, 14:30

The question is: If the next devices will have hardware keyboards why keep an on screen keyboard at all?

Because the hardware keyboard sucks at certain type of data entry, (for example numbers), and on-screen keyboards are easier to customize for specific country/language needs. Them crazy people making latin alphabets with 35+ letters, what were they thinking ! :) Gnumeric without a numpad (software or hardware) is murder. However, if the RX-51 is a dual slider with qwerty + numpad I take it all back, I swear !

By getting rid of the stylus keyboard, and having a finger based ui, from a cost standpoint, it would make sense to eliminate the stylus entirely.

How exactly is redoing your complete UI paradigm in order to loose a 0.10$ component and the OSK cost saving factor ? I understand the urge to do it to make the thing more appealing to the mainstream which is currently in finger-frenzy, but certainly not as a cost cutting measure.

PS. I can use/play with both liqbase and numpty physics with my finger? Numpty is a little harder, and more of a challenge, but certainly neither *require* a stylus to use.

Typing your message did not *require* a keyboard either, but sure made it easier, right ? :)

mullf

2009-04-18, 14:34

and on-screen keyboards are easier to customize for specific country/language needs.

We ALL know that non-American, er, English speakers are inferior, anyway, right? Screw 'em all!!!! </sarcasm>

lemmyslender

2009-04-18, 22:00

Because the hardware keyboard sucks at certain type of data entry, (for example numbers), and on-screen keyboards are easier to customize for specific country/language needs. Them crazy people making latin alphabets with 35+ letters, what were they thinking ! :) Gnumeric without a numpad (software or hardware) is murder. However, if the RX-51 is a dual slider with qwerty + numpad I take it all back, I swear !

How exactly is redoing your complete UI paradigm in order to loose a 0.10$ component and the OSK cost saving factor ? I understand the urge to do it to make the thing more appealing to the mainstream which is currently in finger-frenzy, but certainly not as a cost cutting measure.

Typing your message did not *require* a keyboard either, but sure made it easier, right ? :)

Precisely my point. The main reason you need an onscreen keyboard is VERSATILITY.

By my count on my N800:
Finger keyboard: 38 keys, aproximately 66 characters (1/6 of the screen), you can't see where you are typing, have to hit a modifier key to switch between letters and numbers.
Stylus keyboard: 55 keys (includes numpad), aproximately 2/3 of the screen visible, and you can see where you are typing.
Both are best used with two hands.

In my humble opinion, the stylus keyboard lets you see where you are typing, has more keys available (particularly the number pad), which makes it more versatile (particularly for language or any other customization).

Why would you eliminate the more versatile of the two on screen keyboards? With the right tool it's pretty easy to use. Probably 1/2 my posts on here are made using it. The only reason to get rid of it would be if it were too difficult to use. Why would it be too difficult to use? If there were no stylus, it would be too difficult to use.

I'm not suggesting Nokia re-designed the UI to save a couple of cents by eliminating the stylus. I am suggesting that in order to force the UI to be finger friendly, it was designed with the idea that no stylus would be used/needed. Once that decision has been made, and the UI is completely usable without a stylus, why include one? Why not save $0.10 x (# of tablets)? If it isn't needed surely it is safe to eliminate?

If there is no stylus, gnumeric and a lot of other very useful programs are going to be annoying to use. It has already been shown that a device without a stylus can still sell a lot of units with a properly designed UI (iphone/itouch). Why then is it so ridiculous to suggest that one of the next tablets may not have a stylus, when one of the more useful/versatile stylus friendly features has been eliminated?

tso

2009-04-18, 22:26

maybe its time someone had a look at getting some kind of replacement going, using the sdk, then? as i do not think nokia will bother doing so because of this thread...

mullf

2009-04-18, 22:28

Why then is it so ridiculous to suggest that one of the next tablets may not have a stylus, when one of the more useful/versatile stylus friendly features has been eliminated?

Because someone might write their own stylus-keyboard program, and then be kind enough to make it available to others. It is annoying as all heck to figure out where to store (and not lose) a stylus that doesn't have a convenient built-in dock in the device.

Now, if you want to suggest building in the dock, but selling the styli as accessories, that is also an option. :p

tso

2009-04-18, 22:30

Because someone might write their own stylus-keyboard program, and then be kind enough to make it available to others. It is annoying as all heck to figure out where to store (and not lose) a stylus that doesn't have a convenient built-in dock in the device.

Now, if you want to suggest building in the dock, but selling the styli as accessories, that is also an option. :p

nokia's solution on their recent touch phone seems ok, a pecter on a string ;)

mullf

2009-04-18, 22:31

maybe its time someone had a look at getting some kind of replacement going, using the sdk, then? as i do not think nokia will bother doing so because of this thread...

I don't get it. Nokia would not bother making the stylus-keyboard available as an optional download BECAUSE people want it? I think I'm missing something ...

attila77

2009-04-18, 22:44

If the UI is completely usable without a stylus, why include one? Why not save $0.10 x (# of tablets)? If it isn't needed surely it is safe to eliminate?

The fact that fremantle itself doesn't need it doesn't mean half of the stuff in extras, Mer, ARM Ubuntu, Android and a whole slew of linked software that *could* be installed on the device doesn't need it.

YoDude

2009-04-18, 23:37

I don't get it. Nokia would not bother making the stylus-keyboard available as an optional download BECAUSE people want it? I think I'm missing something ...

Apparently not the targeted market. I don't know for sure, but I would think some user focus group feedback is also considered before making these kinds of decisions. :)

mullf

2009-04-18, 23:56

Apparently not the targeted market.

If they don't want my money, they won't get it!

dickcheney

2009-04-19, 00:12

nokia's solution on their recent touch phone seems ok, a pecter on a string ;)

Why should I need that? I carry my pecker everywhere I go. Though I haven't yet tried using it as a stylus. I'll make that tonight's project. What's the advantage of having it on a string?

lemmyslender

2009-04-19, 00:21

The fact that fremantle itself doesn't need it doesn't mean half of the stuff in extras, Mer, ARM Ubuntu, Android and a whole slew of linked software that *could* be installed on the device doesn't need it.

Yes and I can use most/all of those programs without a stylus (not including Mer, Ubuntu, Android) using the menu hard key and dpad. They currently let me go through and make choices in all the menus. Not as easily as a stylus, but doable.

Besides, a new user may never see any of those programs. What Nokia is primarily concerned with is whatever default/stock programs are on the device when I buy it (or reflash). I highly doubt that one of the stock installed programs available on a newly purchased tablet will allow one to download and install Mer, Ubuntu, or Android. Nokia will count on the program developers to update their programs to work within the confines of the new UI.

I sincerely hope the next tablets have a stylus/stylus storage (and hopefully not on a string). I am just concerned that this is an indication of what I consider a serious issue with the UI.

Perhaps some Nokian can forward this thread to Kate or someone else who would have the authority to alleviate some of our fears. Hopefully, the existence/non-existence of a stylus is a silly enough question that it wouldn't give Nokia's competitors any advantage knowing this information prior to launch.

If it has a built-in stylus many of us could rest easier knowing that even if the new UI doesn't suit our tastes we can hack it or replace it without having to worry about losing a stylus or the effect pens, pencils, or other makeshift styli on our screens/screen protectors.

qgil

2009-04-19, 07:54

Perhaps some Nokian can forward this thread to Kate or someone else who would have the authority to alleviate some of our fears.

Or developers could just get to work with the Fremantle SDK, and users could be better helping them with feedback and ideas to improve their apps.

Really, you are investing too much time worrying in this thread.

lcuk

2009-04-19, 09:03

Why should I need that? I carry my pecker everywhere I go. Though I haven't yet tried using it as a stylus. I'll make that tonight's project. What's the advantage of having it on a string?

you can't lose it.
makes total sense actually, and might allow budding musicians to learn how to play digital instruments.

mullf

2009-04-19, 11:39

eiffel

2009-04-19, 11:43

Or developers could just get to work with the Fremantle SDK, and users could be better helping them with feedback and ideas to improve their apps.

Really, you are investing too much time worrying in this thread.
You keep saying things like that, but it's really hard to develop for a device which may or may not have a physical keyboard, may or may not have a GPS, may or may not have a phone, has a screen or unknown dimensions, has an unknown amount of memory, has an unknown arrangement of hardware buttons, has some as-yet-undeciphered second type of keyboard input on one variant, may or may not have its apps distributable through Nokia's app store, may or may not be able to drive an external screen, might but probably won't have a capacitive screen, might but probably won't support multi-touch, may or may not support haptics beyond the simple "vibrate" that we know about, may or may not have a transflective screen, has unknown battery life, may or may not have a hardware stylus, may or may not fit in a jeans pocket, etc.

Success is not just a matter of developing against an SDK and hoping that the device will be well-suited to the app.

If Nokia actually wants to reap the benefit of the open source model, they need to be open themselves.

Someone once said that "there's not much community around S60, except for the community that Nokia pays to be there". That's also true of Maemo to some extent. Nokia is enlightened when it comes to subsidising conference attendances, funding a community debmaster, etc etc. But that's an expensive way to tap into open source when Nokia could reap huge benefits simply by being ... open!

Regards,
Roger

GeneralAntilles

2009-04-19, 12:24

Rather than becoming fixated on your perception of Nokia's level of openness, it'd probably behoove you to pay attention to the information that already out there and the answers to these points that have already been provided. For the sake of completeness, though, I'll address each of them with what we know.

a physical keyboard

We can be certain that at least one of the devices in the next generation will have a keyboard. There's a reason they put on in the N810, and I don't see them taking it out.

may or may not have a GPS

Considering that it looks like Nokia Maps will be bundled with Fremantle, I'd say this is a certainty.

may or may not have a phone

Of all the potential features of the next device, this one is the least clear, but it's also one of the less relevant things to application developers. The bit of information about cellular connectivity that's relevant to developers (the data connectivity) was announced last year.

has a screen or unknown dimensions

We have a part number for a Sony panel, you get the specs on it and you'll know for certain what the dimensions are. Really, though, the important information is known: the screen will be 800x480, and since that hasn't changed in 4 years, I'd say it's safe to assume that the dimensions wont, either.

has an unknown amount of memory

Also hardly relevant to application developers. "A lot less than your average desktop" is plenty of information here. Whether it's 128MB or 256MB isn't going to make or break anybody's development plans.

has an unknown arrangement of hardware buttons

This valid only to a certain extent.

has some as-yet-undeciphered second type of keyboard input on one variant

This might be important if developers had to target only that varient, but as the software is expected to run on other devices, I think it's pretty safe to assume that this isn't a make-or-break proposition here.

may or may not have its apps distributable through Nokia's app store

Is the question here whether it's going to require an Apple AppStore-style gateway for software distribution or whether commercial developers will have the option of a more heavily supported (and commercialized) distribution method?

If it's the former, well, that's obviously not the case. Developers will be able to distribute their software for Fremantle through Extras and the Application Manager just like they always have.

If it's the later, well, how in the world is that relevant to anybody but commercial developers (who already have access to this sort of information through their relationships with Nokia)?

may or may not be able to drive an external screen

There are several mentions of video-out in the code (composite), and since USB isn't going away, an external display adaptor is still an option (probably a more feasible one with a faster USB bus, too).

might but probably won't have a capacitive screen

Based on all of the information available, I think we can safely but this one to rest for the time being. The best argument against it are liqbase and Numpty Physics in the Fremantle Stars, well, that, and the (two) resistive panels listed in the kernel.

might but probably won't support multi-touch

Same answer as above.

may or may not support haptics beyond the simple "vibrate" that we know about

This hardly seems like a critical bit of information for application developers. Especially as something like this is likely handled at about the level of system sound notifications (i.e., very low level).

may or may not have a transflective screen

Based on the part numbers in the kernel, I'd say this is almost certain. I can't see Nokia backsliding on this feature anyway.

has unknown battery life

This is an easy one. Idle battery life will be superior to OMAP2 hardware, while full-blast battery life will likely be slightly worse (since there are a lot more components involved). The battery size isn't likely to change by much. Yet again, though, this isn't really critical for application developers.

may or may not have a hardware stylus

Based on the applications in the Fremantle Stars, and the resistive screens in the kernel, I'd say this rumor is vastly overblown.

may or may not fit in a jeans pocket

I'd say it's pretty safe to assume that the formfactor hasn't varied excessively from previous models. But, again, I don't see how this is a critical bit of information for application developers.

Really, though, the beta SDK isn't even out yet. We're still on an alpha release that isn't really intended for application developers. Who's to say that a hardware announcement might not be coming with the beta release? Then the application developers will have all of the information they could possibly need to develop for the next tablet.

GeneralAntilles

2009-04-19, 12:31

But that's an expensive way to tap into open source when Nokia could reap huge benefits simply by being ... open!

You may not realize it, but the Nokians who frequent this website get this. They get open source, and they understand what open means. Unfortunately big ships like Nokia don't turn on a dime, and it takes time to change direction like this (especially when most traditional business values go totally against it). They've made an amazing amount of progress since 2005.

qgil

2009-04-19, 14:36

@eiffel, I understand knowing the answers to all your questions will make your short term life as developer easier. But if we haven't disclosed them by now is because Nokia thinks that by following certain marketing strategy the devices with Maemo 5 will have a better impact and will sell better. Which ultimately is a goal shared by most developers interested in the Maemo platform: most of you want more users for your software.

Then again, can you name the projects you have in mind for Maemo 5 and why all these questions are critical? If you can't really start seriously before having those questions answered fair enough: do not waste your time. All these pre-releases are made for those willing to get started before a product launch.

Before that product launch you can try the SDK pre-releases or you can ignore them. The worst combination is not to ignore them and not to have fun with them, spending your energies in especulative threads like this and writing the especulative post number 225.

qgil

2009-04-19, 14:45

You may not realize it, but the Nokians who frequent this website get this. They get open source, and they understand what open means. Unfortunately big ships like Nokia don't turn on a dime, and it takes time to change direction like this (especially when most traditional business values go totally against it). They've made an amazing amount of progress since 2005.

It's not even that. But this thread is getting too long and too off the original topic, therefore:

Open source vs confidential products
http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=280756

eiffel

2009-04-19, 20:49

@eiffel, I understand knowing the answers to all your questions will make your short term life as developer easier.
Software development is hard, and every developer wants their life to be easier :-)

can you name the projects you have in mind for Maemo 5 and why all these questions are critical?
I would like to develop something really cool, based on the intersection of my interests and the unique capabilities of the device. But I'm not prepared to put in hundreds of hours work developing for a device that may be surprisingly different from what I'm expecting.

Before that product launch you can try the SDK pre-releases or you can ignore them. The worst combination is not to ignore them and not to have fun with them...
You are right of course. I'll try not to vent my frustration so often. When the device is announced, I'll decide whether it's worth my time developing for.

@Ryan: thanks for your point-by-point comments.

Regards,
Roger