oFono announced

[qole]

This seems like a Big Deal; is this the telephony stack for Maemo 5? Or Maemo 6?

oFono (http://ofono.org/) has just been announced (http://ofono.org/blogs/holtmann/2009/announcing-ofonoorg)!
oFono is licensed under GPLv2, and it includes a high-level D-Bus API for use by telephony applications of any license. oFono also includes a low-level plug-in API for integrating with Open Source as well as third party telephony stacks, cellular modems and storage back-ends. The plug-in API functionality is modeled on public standards, in particular 3GPP TS 27.007 “AT command set for User Equipment (UE).”
Nokia and Intel will jointly maintain the oFono project. We'd like to invite all developers to join the ofono.org effort and community.
There will eventually be is an architecture diagram (http://ofono.org/documentation) and there's a git repo (http://git.kernel.org/?p=network/ofono/ofono.git;a=summary)...

(thanks to Aki Niemi's post to the mailing list (http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-developers/2009-May/054860.html))

http://www.protocolpolice.com/~aki/ofono-640.png

[tso]

did they just obsolete openmoko???

[sachin007]

Any idea this will be included in fremantle?

i need this info so that i dont buy an additional phone

thanks

[qole]

Considering the timeline, I think this must be for Harmattan, not Fremantle... But maybe I'm wrong?

I'm guessing the Nokia modem plugin is going to be a closed source binary. But that still leaves a lot of amazing openness.

[tso]

the diagram shows the nokia plugin in side the gpl border...

[Peter@Maemo Marketing]

Any idea this will be included in fremantle?



Maemo 5 will include HSPA data which obviously needs some kind of cellular modem to work. So, some of the work in the oFono project will be commercialised in Maemo 5. Otherwise, the oFono project is our way of contributing our competence from the world of mobility to open source.

[sachin007]

Maemo 5 will include HSPA data which obviously needs some kind of cellular modem to work. So, some of the work in the oFono project will be commercialised in Maemo 5. Otherwise, the oFono project is our way of contributing our competence from the world of mobility to open source.

i was talking about the gsm/ cellular phone part.

okay here is my question,

Can i sell both my n810 and n95-4 and just buy the n900 for everything including cellular calls?

thanks

[Peter@Maemo Marketing]

i was talking about the gsm/ cellular phone part.

Maemo Software is an R&D unit in Nokia meaning that we work on all kinds of things in research and on engineering level. Whether we go the last mile and bring our work into a product that you could buy depends on for what portfolio segment we use Maemo software. The oFono project is about working together in open source style and contributing our skills about mobile telephony. Since our colleagues from Intel help out this project as well, one would think that the leaders in mobile communication and computing technology can come up with some useful for the whole open source community.

[ColdFusion]

Maemo Software is an R&D unit in Nokia meaning that we work on all kinds of things in research and on engineering level. Whether we go the last mile and bring our work into a product that you could buy depends on for what portfolio segment we use Maemo software. The oFono project is about working together in open source style and contributing our skills about mobile telephony. Since our colleagues from Intel help out this project as well, one would think that the leaders in mobile communication and computing technology can come up with some useful for the whole open source community.

Yes, we appreciate that! :)

But I also want to know if I should buy a new phone (because my old one is in a bad shape) or wait for the n900 to make my gsm calls.

[Peet]

Just looking at that diagram tells me this is a major announcement, but Ofono.org's about page still leaves me (as an end user) with some questions, such as:

What new end user features and functions will this stack enable?

What features and functions currently provided by the Linux kernel and existing telephony apps is Ofono intended to replace, augment or improve?

I suspect this annoucement will generate a lot of debate within the developer circles, but since this was posted under General category it would be nice to see also human readable explanations and speculation. :cool:

[Peter@Maemo Marketing]

Yes, we appreciate that! :)

But I also want to know if I should buy a new phone (because my old one is in a bad shape) or wait for the n900 to make my gsm calls.

What we did announce together we Intel as another sponsor is the oFono open source project. What we did not announce today is another product on Maemo software.

If we did announce another product on Maemo software, do you think I would sit now on my laptop and chat in talk.maemo.org or would I be giving interviews to press and media on some global launch event? ;-)

[qgil]

I have just published http://maemo.org/news/announcements/intel_and_nokia_announce_the_ofono_project/ . It might help you understanding a bit better this interesting initiative.

Just looking at that diagram tells me this is a major announcement, but Ofono.org's about page still leaves me (as an end user) with some questions, such as:

You are welcome to ask all those questions in http://ofono.org directly. This is why they have created an open and public project. :)

In any case, end users and even the average developers can probably just relax. An open telephony stack might be a trascendental step in the long term in the industry, but I don't think is something that will make your neighbour buy a device or another because of the features it brings.

[VDVsx]

did they just obsolete openmoko???

At least will probably obsolete freesmartphones.org (http://www.freesmartphone.org), which is a shame, because is a old and stable project :(

[qgil]

Again that is something that you should ask in oFono to get the right answers.

I did ask the same question to Aki (sitting not far away, in our offices in Helsinki) and he said that both Intel and Nokia developers really think the initial design of oFono is better. Don't make me repeat his technical arguments about commands, strings, wraps and protocols because they frankly fall beyond my technical knowledge. But it's a conscious decision based on software architecture and API design, not in ownership or Not Invented Here.

Also note the obvious scope of the freesmartphone.org, while oFono is by design not tied to any form factor.

That world is not that big. The core developers from both projects know each other and follow their commits. I would be surprised if the FSP core promoters were not aware of this move. Hopefully all these energies can be focused in a common direction.

[VDVsx]

Again that is something that you should ask in oFono to get the right answers.

I did ask the same question to Aki (sitting not far away, in our offices in Helsinki) and he said that both Intel and Nokia developers really think the initial design of oFono is better. Don't make me repeat his technical arguments about commands, strings, wraps and protocols because they frankly fall beyond my technical knowledge. But it's a conscious decision based on software architecture and API design, not in ownership or Not Invented Here.

Fair enough, and I also disagree with a lot of the technical aspect of FSO, but I believe that a common standard/API should be achieved in that area and the FSO team already done a lot in that field.


That world is not that big. The core developers from both projects know each other and follow their commits. I would be surprised if the FSP core promoters were not aware of this move. Hopefully all these energies can be focused in a common direction.

Of course they are aware (http://laforge.gnumonks.org/weblog/2009/05/12/#20090512-ophono_fso)

[jeremiah]

This announcement is really exciting. It will allow developers to more easily build applications on top of a GSM stack.

Does that mean you can throw away your mobile phone? Probably not right away, but eventually anything that has an x86 processor will be able to use this and/or other libraries to build telephony applications that use the GSM/UMTS network. This means your application can carry voice over both the Internet and 2g and 3g networks.

This technology might not replace your phone tomorrow, but in the right hands it will surely give Skype and other VoIP apps a run for their money. :)

[qgil]

Of course they are aware (http://laforge.gnumonks.org/weblog/2009/05/12/#20090512-ophono_fso)

Who writes that, btw? He talks abut the FSP developers as 'they' and not 'us'.

I can't insist more about going to oFono for answers instead of guessing here. It takes the same effort. They have an IRC channel, go there and ask.

Looking at logs you can see the issue already came up:

http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/ofono.txt

[qgil]

Who writes that, btw? He talks abaut the FSP developers as 'they' and not 'us'.

I saw the header of theblog. I even know this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_Welte)! Anyway, I hope technical reasons will prevail over time.

I have no doubt about the knowledge of Harald and other developers in similar positions. But it's also fair to say that it's not unexpected that an initiative coming from two big corporations starting something from scratch will generate this type of first reaction response.

Yet we have seen many young and brave open source projects starting from scratch because they thought their plan and implementation were more suitable than an old and stable project.

[VDVsx]

Who writes that, btw? He talks abut the FSP developers as 'they' and not 'us'.

I can't insist more about going to oFono for answers instead of guessing here. It takes the same effort. They have an IRC channel, go there and ask.

Looking at logs you can see the issue already came up:

http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/ofono.txt

Harald is a former OpenMoko employee, and used to work in low level stuff related to FSO (mainly GSM modem stuff).

Thanks for the IRC discussion link.

[VDVsx]

A good summary of oFono technical aspects (with some speculation :P): LinuxDevices Article (http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6762676329.html)

Interesting discussion around oFono vs FSO: OpenMoko ML (http://n2.nabble.com/Fwd%3A--Announce--Intel-and-Nokia-announce-open-source-telephony--project-%28oFono%29-td2864944ef1958.html)

[lma]

I have just published http://maemo.org/news/announcements/intel_and_nokia_announce_the_ofono_project/ .

There's an interesting apparent contradiction between that ("don't expect this young and brave code to be shipped with Fremantle") and

So, some of the work in the oFono project will be commercialised in Maemo 5.

WARNING: pure speculation follows:

So far there has been no official confirmation or denial of a cellular telephony stack in Fremantle. We have seen some intriguing hints (mysterious keypad layouts (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=25478&page=27#post268246), BT/CSD telephony stack (http://bleb.org/software/maemo/telephony-maemo.c:source), interesting call states defined in MCE (http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/beta/mce-dev/mode-names_8h.html), MIDI (http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo5.0beta/free/w/wildmidi/) playback, Vibra API (http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/beta/mce-dev/dbus-names_8h.html) to name a few) in the alpha/beta SDKs but none of these is quite a smoking gun on its own. Put them all together though and it's easy to jump to conclusions.

It may be that the cellular call support is not quite ready yet and will come in Harmattan, or there will be a different (closed-source) stack in Fremantle but IMHO it looks like we'll see it in maemo sooner or later. Now I don't necessarily think that's a good thing (I don't need a phone personally and FWIW I fully agree with Ari Jaaksi's 2005 views (http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2005/11/it-is-not-cell-phone-and-it-is-good.html) on this), but since the sacrifices necessary for making hildon usable as a phone UI have already been made (but let's keep that discussion out of this thread) I don't care that much. Just get the Fremantle devices, whatever they may be, stable and let us buy them please :-)

[lma]

Also note the obvious scope of the freesmartphone.org, while oFono is by design not tied to any form factor.

Indeed, I can see useful applications of this on IADs (OpenWrt? ISTR Nokia is already using that in some projects), asterisk servers and the like.

Thanks to all involved in releasing this. Hopefully the discussion on the relative merits of oFone vs FSO will take place somewhere and benefit both projects.

[krisse]

It may be that the cellular call support is not quite ready yet and will come in Harmattan, or there will be a different (closed-source) stack in Fremantle but IMHO it looks like we'll see it in maemo sooner or later. Now I don't necessarily think that's a good thing (I don't need a phone personally

I still don't understand why people object to devices simply having cellular telephony as an option. No one minded Wimax as an option, why is 3.5G as an option any different?

Some people seem to think telephony means control by network operators but that just isn't the case. I have spent the past few years buying and reviewing cellular devices, and I have never bought ANYTHING from a network operator. I have never signed up to a contract, and no network operator has any control over me or my devices. My relationship to my phone network is identical to my relationship to my ISP: they supply a connection, they don't supply anything else.

If you buy an unbranded phone, no network operator can touch you. And all Nokia devices (branded or unbranded) will work without a SIM card, so they can be used as pure non-cellular devices if you prefer.

Practically all Nokia devices are available as unbranded unlocked devices straight from electronics retailers with no network operator involvement at all, in fact the unbranded versions come out a lot sooner. Even if you're in America, where unbranded phones have traditionally been a rarity, Amazon US sell them, Dell US sell them, Nokia US's website sells them, and here in Europe practically every retailer sells unbranded phones.

Even if the new Maemo devices had telephony, you could just ignore it, it wouldn't make any practical difference. Even the price wouldn't be that different, the 5800 for example has multifrequency 3.5G telephony but launched for substantially less than the N810 or N800 did.

At most the inclusion of telephony would probably only add maybe 5-10% to the total price, but even that might disappear if the increased sales reduce production costs. Large batches of telephony devices may be cheaper to make than small batches of non-telephony devices (and of course increased userbase would virtually guarantee a much greater supply of software and services for Maemo devices).

I can see lots of upsides to offering telephony as an option, I can't see any downsides at all.

[qole]

PURE SPECULATION, INFORMED BY NO INSIDE KNOWLEDGE, FOLLOWS:

The oFono project really introduces a "wild card" into the mobile phone world. The only way Nokia or the carriers are going to be able to control how the users use their phones is to do one of three things to the supposedly open source telephony stack:


Closed: Keep the modem plugins as binaries with closed APIs
Hobbled: Let the modem drivers be open source, but strip out any parts that you don't want developers to use (this might be in conjunction with 1, making some parts of the driver open and some parts closed)
Broken: The Nokia hardware, as released, is physically incapable of voice, or the source code is purposely misleading, or the portion of oFono being used in Maemo 5 is incompatible with the open source project in critical ways

If Nokia resists the urge to do those things (and we'll have to wait and see), and they don't officially support voice in Maemo 5, then I guarantee a swarm of community developers will descend on the Maemo devices and, if it is technically possible, they will have community support for voice working shortly after their release.

Maemo 5 will include HSPA data which obviously needs some kind of cellular modem to work. So, some of the work in the oFono project will be commercialised in Maemo 5.

the diagram shows the nokia plugin in side the gpl border...

EDIT: I notice the diagram is gone. Perhaps because of the "plugin inside the gpl border" issue? Or maybe too much bandwidth?

[InfinityDevil]

Some people seem to think telephony means control by network operators but that just isn't the case.
...
Practically all Nokia devices are available as unbranded unlocked devices straight from electronics retailers with no network operator involvement at all, in fact the unbranded versions come out a lot sooner. Even if you're in America, where unbranded phones have traditionally been a rarity, Amazon US sell them, Dell US sell them, Nokia US's website sells them, and here in Europe practically every retailer sells unbranded phones.

Even if the new Maemo devices had telephony, you could just ignore it, it wouldn't make any practical difference. Even the price wouldn't be that different, the 5800 for example has multifrequency 3.5G telephony but launched for substantially less than the N810 or N800 did.
...
I can see lots of upsides to offering telephony as an option, I can't see any downsides at all.

The cell carriers are absolutely strangling all innovation in the cell space in the US. I would have to guess that whatever cell support makes it into a n9xx tablet will be data only. And I would also guess that tablet won't do well in the US.

Why?

Data plans that aren't tied to phones directly are capped rather heavily, and nearly all phones are highly controlled and regulated by the carrier. Exceptions: Google Android and Apple iPhone. Is Nokia big enough to have Google's brand pull? How about Apple's? Didn't think so. And even then the carrier has final say on what apps are offered for those devices on their stores.

Plus I would like the tablet to be a great tablet and computer, and not a half-baked phone because of having to jam the phone components into it. Phones should be dirt cheap feature phones that do voice and that's it. Give me rich data on a handheld like the N8xx and N9xx's can deliver.

Can it do VOIP? Sure, but I'm not going to pay for VOIP service when I already pay for it on my cell, and if I don't buy VOIP than everyone else I know who DOESN'T use VOIP can't call me and I can't call them.

I think Nokia knows enough to stick with data only for Maemo.

[talmage]

What are the chances that it's based in part on OpenIMSCore (http://www.openimscore.org/)? I'm thinking of the "oFono Core Stack" box in the High Level Architecture diagram.

[GeneralAntilles]

Is Nokia big enough to have Google's brand pull? How about Apple's? Didn't think so.

Surely you're jesting. Nokia is the world's largest mobile phone manufacturer (http://www.nokia.com/about-nokia/financials/quarterly-and-annual-information/q1-2009) (with nearly a 40% global market share), #81 on Forbes' Global 2000 list (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2009/18/global-09_The-Global-2000_Rank.html) (on which Google and Apple don't even rank), and generally kicks Google and Apple's asses.

Now, if you're talking specifically about the US, yes, Nokia does not have the strength here that they do overseas. But, globally, Apple and Google don't compare.

[Mara]

Surely you're jesting. Nokia is the world's largest mobile phone manufacturer (http://www.nokia.com/about-nokia/financials/quarterly-and-annual-information/q1-2009) (with nearly a 40% global market share), #81 on Forbes' Global 2000 list (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2009/18/global-09_The-Global-2000_Rank.html) (on which Google and Apple don't even rank), and generally kicks Google and Apple's asses.

Now, if you're talking specifically about the US, yes, Nokia does not have the strength here that they do overseas. But, globally, Apple and Google don't compare.

Yeah... even Intel (which everyone knows...) is just a small company: They have only about 82 thousand employees while Nokia has over 120 thousand... Microsoft is also a lightweight company with less than 100 thousand employees... :rolleyes:

[tso]

iirc, at one point nokia was a noshow on the US market because it refused the operator to modify firmwares...

basically, nokia is a foreign producer, apple and google is domestic...

[allnameswereout]

And I would also guess that tablet won't do well in the US.Why does that depend on HS*PA working yes/no. Based on the specifications of Maemo 5 and RX-51 there are many other reasons a United States resident would consider to buy such device.

Can it do VOIP? Sure, but I'm not going to pay for VOIP service when I already pay for it on my cell, and if I don't buy VOIP than everyone else I know who DOESN'T use VOIP can't call me and I can't call them.I don't know about VoIP given people seem to relate it to Skype and other unnecessary proprietary technologies but regarding SIP: you can use a SIP server with or without PSTN support. You can use this by default on devices which support TCP/IP and internet connectivity. For example a laptop, a mobile phone with data capability, a RX-51 with data capability, or your using WLAN in your friends house.

You could opt to either use your cellphone with GSM + data (probably a so-called smartphone) or you use the RX-51. Or you toss in the SIM card in your RX-51. You can even log in several times on one SIP server allowing you to phone with either logged in client, but only the last logged in client will be able to receive an incoming call.

I think Nokia knows enough to stick with data only for Maemo.For now, sure. That has been announced and has been clear for a long, long time. This is Harmattan; long term; think post RX-51, post 2009.

So, for now, you could combine that with a simple Nokia phone for GSM (prepaid or subscription). That wouldn't cost much, so it'd allow more budget for the tablet and the data-only subscription.

Also, this model is not for Maemo only (Intel does not use Maemo, but uses Hildon). It is probably also useful for Moblin. And maybe even S60 (Qt has DBus support).

[R-R]

I really really hope that I'll see released or at least announced for a release soon (this year!) a Maemo device with phone capabilities...

I'm really holding my purchase right now for a new cell upgrade as i still use an old Nokia 6020 and love my N810 though i came to the conclusion that my pocket has only space for 1 device and that the phone is going to be it, unfortunately...

[johnkzin]

I really really hope that I'll see released or at least announced for a release soon (this year!) a Maemo device with phone capabilities...

...

i came to the conclusion that my pocket has only space for 1 device and that the phone is going to be it, unfortunately...

I came to the same conclusion, about only carrying/having one pocketable device.

I would LOVE for Nokia to step up and provide me with that device. An N97 that was the size of an N810 (4.1" screen with 800x480), running Maemo, fully functional as a phone (voice, SMS, MMS) in addition to 3G data, and Dalvik runtime, would be ideal (esp. with some form of video out, charge via usb client, plus a separate usb port for host+otg). If ofono gets us closer to that reality, I'm all for it.

[krisse]

I came to the same conclusion, about only carrying/having one pocketable device.

I would LOVE for Nokia to step up and provide me with that device. An N97 that was the size of an N810 (4.1" screen with 800x480), running Maemo, fully functional as a phone (voice, SMS, MMS) in addition to 3G data, and Dalvik runtime, would be ideal (esp. with some form of video out, charge via usb client, plus a separate usb port for host+otg). If ofono gets us closer to that reality, I'm all for it.

I'm 99.9% sure we will see a Maemo phone very soon, maybe even the end of this year.

I haven't got any direct evidence for that, but I've tried to list the indirect evidence for a Maemo phone in a post on another thread:

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=288206&postcount=14

[johnkzin]

I'm 99.9% sure we will see a Maemo phone very soon, maybe even the end of this year.

I'm not convinced we will, but I'll be absolutely happy if we do.

If it doesn't have Dalvik, it'll make a long hard decision process for me.

If it does halve Dalvik, it'll be a no brainer: I'll buy it the day it comes to the US (with or without T-Mobile-USA 3G).

[qgil]

Please keep this thread on topic around oFono. There are already many threads open about idle speculation and you can even start new ones if you wish. Thanks!

[Thesandlord]

If it does halve Dalvik, it'll be a no brainer: I'll buy it the day it comes to the US (with or without T-Mobile-USA 3G).

I assume you want to run android apps? Would be amazing to see Nokia include that, seeing the direction they are taking Maemo now.

[lma]

Grabbed the souce and had a quick look around. There are two drivers at the moment: phonet and atmodem.

Phonet is just a skeleton with no useful code at the moment, but its presence confirms that it is/will be relevant to maemo. Atmodem is more fleshed out and contains some explicit checks for TI Calypso chips which suggests that (somewhat ironically) a Neo1973 or Freerunner might make a good ofono hacking platform.

BTW, tt's not documented in README/HACKING, but in order to run ofonod you'll need to modify the system dbus security policy to allow it to connect (see src/ofono.conf).

[krisse]

I would LOVE for Nokia to step up and provide me with that device. An N97 that was the size of an N810 (4.1" screen with 800x480)

That's not a million miles from what Nokia's Communicator series were intended as. They were meant to be computers in your pocket, and they even had their own custom version of Symbian (Series 80) which was designed entirely for use on Communicator phones.

The latest Communicator, the E90, was the first to use the standard S60 interface instead of Series 80, which meant it both gained and lost fans (depending on whether you preferred S60 or Series 80).

I wonder if we might one day see a Maemo-based device using the Communicator brand? It would certainly make sense as Maemo seems to be closer to the spirit of the Communicators than S60 is.

And Communicators aren't a Symbian-only range, they originally ran a totally different OS called GEOS, which was first released on desktop computers.

(Incidentally the PC/Communicator GEOS is nothing to do with the 8-bit GEOS though they were made by the same company apparently.)

[Benson]

Phonet is just a skeleton with no useful code at the moment, but its presence confirms that it is/will be relevant to maemo. Atmodem is more fleshed out and contains some explicit checks for TI Calypso chips which suggests that (somewhat ironically) a Neo1973 or Freerunner might make a good ofono hacking platform.
From Linux 2.6.29:
The Phone Network protocol (PhoNet) is a packet-oriented communication protocol developped by Nokia for use with its modems.

This is required for Maemo to use cellular data connectivity (if supported). It can also be used to control Nokia phones from a Linux computer, although AT commands may be easier to use.

So to me, the availability of a phonet backend doesn't necessarily mean this is targeted for Maemo, although it's obviously a logical fit. And even assuming phonet's intended for use with Maemo, it's also possible that that's just to allow them a convenient test platform, but not necessarily production-bound...

[tso]

sounds a bit like phonet can replace gnokii...