Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates? [Archive] - maemo.org

silvermountain

2009-07-30, 21:13

timoph

2009-07-30, 21:27

to my understanding the underlaying libraries won't be changed, so I wouldn't call it DOA.

silvermountain

2009-07-30, 21:33

to my understanding the underlaying libraries won't be changed, so I wouldn't call it DOA.

I think you're right but my understanding is that...uh..correct me if I'm wrong..is that Freemantle is not really an OS in the traditional sense but rather a presentation-layer running ontop of GTK developed apps.

What I gathered from listening to the show is that N900 is the only device that will use this presentation-layer (in much lack of a better word) and that Nokia is moving to QT and a different presentation layer.

I do believe though, to make things even more complicated [for me] that items developed in GTK or QT will still run on the later devices and 'all' that is different is that Freemantle will not be there.

Am I kinda-sorta understanding it correctly?

Note: This is from someone who two months ago thought that Linux was the name of a Penguin.

danramos

2009-07-30, 21:41

Good thing so many things will be fixed in Fremantle.

silvermountain

2009-07-30, 21:46

Good thing so many things will be fixed in Fremantle.

Drink!

[message to short]

qgil

2009-07-30, 22:10

Thanks for the pointer!

To answer your question: no. Fremantle brings a lot of new stuff that needs to run in real devices and needs to improve with the feedback of real users and developers. The success of Fremantle is needed for the success of Harmattan.

We have started sharing our Harmattan roadmap soon to clarify a couple of questions that were coming frequently: what is the toolkit strategy and what is the relation with Symbian.

It's also a good practice in open source platforms. Now the Qt path can work with clearer goals in mind, knowing that Maemo is going to be a platform with good support and a significant investment in innovation. And the GTK+ path can start considering what future they want for the Hildon contribution and what is the support level they want to achieve in Fremantle. Since Fremantle hasn't even seen the light as final version there is time to discuss and get organized.

You might be interested reading and listening the original source:

Maemo Harmattan: Qt and more (http://flors.wordpress.com/2009/07/05/maemo-harmattan-keynote-at-gcds/)

There is also another thread where this topic has been discussed:

Quim keynote on Maemo's switch to Qt as the main toolkit (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=30085)

If you have further questions please ask. Perhaps better in the thread above.

Jaffa

2009-07-30, 22:10

Fremantle (Maemo 5) is built on later versions of the same libraries which have been used in Maemo since the 770 was released in November 2005. This includes gstreamer, DBUS, gconf and the Gtk+ widget toolkit. Several UI features in Fremantle will use Clutter (for the first time) to give whizzy dynamic effects. In addition, we'll start seeing more third party apps written using a different GUI toolkit: Qt. They'll still be running on the same OS, though.

Harmattan (presumably Maemo 6) is built on many of the same libraries as Fremantle. However, the roles of Gtk+ and Qt are reversed: the core of the user interface will be written using Qt; though third party apps will still be able to use Gtk+. Similarly, Qt has a technology similar to Clutter for doing fancy transitions - necessary to have a compelling user experience in this day and age.

More information, including links back into the appropriate thread here (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=30085) can be found in this LWN feature article on the subject:

http://lwn.net/Articles/341391/

Stskeeps

2009-07-30, 22:18

I think you're right but my understanding is that...uh..correct me if I'm wrong..is that Freemantle is not really an OS in the traditional sense but rather a presentation-layer running ontop of GTK developed apps.

Fremantle is version 5.0 of Maemo. Maemo, is a wide range of different services, APIs and it is a OS in traditional sense. On a standard Ubuntu, you have a lot of different services, APIs, etc as well, and you put them on top of those, X and GTK+, and you run GNOME environment on top of this.

In Harmattan one of the aims is to replace GTK+ plus Hildon with Qt. Many of the same services and APIs will be there, but the default widget toolkit will change. - which probably means that Nokia will rewrite most things facing the user (UI, etc) on top of Qt instead of Gtk/Hildon.

What does this mean for a typical extras developer? Not much, - he can still develop his Gtk+/Hildon application, put it in extras - because Gtk+/Hildon, in Harmattan, would be on maemo.org extras. Same way some people extend the platform with custom libraries - by putting them in extras.

The difference is that Nokia is saying in Harmattan, - Qt is the toolkit we support/develop/etc. And I personally think that's a great choice to make. Targetting Qt specifically instead of a weird combo of Gtk+, with Hildon widgets on top, can only be a benefit - and allow us to put the Maemo platform (system daemons, APIs, etc) and our applications on a lot of different things - Maemo GTK+ is a bad mess for portability.

But, since Maemo is flexible, you can still develop your Gtk+/Hildon applications by simply depending on gtk+/Hildon libraries as usual and putting your application in Extras. The difference would be that gtk+/Hildon is now not part of typically installed SDK, but '3rd-party' and hosted in extras. This is how developers use Qt right now.

Does this mean that Fremantle is DOA? For many Nokia provided applications (user facing ones) - their time has maybe come. For all the new APIs introduced and existing ones, fixed bugs in system daemon A, B, C? No! They'll probably still be there in Harmattan (excepting maybe Clutter, but some may argue that this isn't a loss.).

So, what does it mean that GTK+/Hildon will be "community supported"? What does community want this to mean?

To me, it means that 'community' - our developers are still using these APIs in our applications. We can help out fitting Gtk+/Hildon to eventual Harmattan UI changes. This is already being done with Qt - fitting Qt towards looking/feeling like Hildon. And community is involved in this effort already. So, as long as there's an interest from community to run Hildon API applications on Harmattan, it would be possible to help out and make it happen. And it's probably easier than the Mer effort.

qgil

2009-07-30, 22:25

1:52:58! Any pointer (even if approximate) for the Maemo part?

gerbick

2009-07-30, 22:48

Jaffa

2009-07-30, 22:59

In this case, it's both. The feelgood speeches cannot deny that wholly. Fremantle will fix current issues in Diablo, require new hardware, allow the community to inherit some of it's architecture, while basically becoming a deadend itself shortly thereafter.

Which is why the effort - and results - of Nokia and the Mer (http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer) team are to be lauded in providing a continued mechanism for supporting out-of-date hardware in a commercially realistic way.

Besides, we don't yet know if Harmattan is going to be targetted at RX-51 style hardware; which I guess will depend on the timescales.

silvermountain

2009-07-30, 23:10

1:52:58! Any pointer (even if approximate) for the Maemo part?

The N810 and Fremantle/Maemo discussion starts at 24:15 on the video version (see link above).

The Ars Technica article they are referring to (and said is not 100% accurate) is at: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/07/nokia-adopts-qt-toolkit-for-next-generation-maemo-platform.ars

(wish I had seen that before posting here as it does, along with the great answers here, address my question really well).

Edit: This episode of the show also discusses Google's Chrome OS and if by introducing that Google is 'admitting' that Android was a failure - or if it is as simple as Mobile=Android and Netbook=Chrome.

Thanks!

Stskeeps

2009-07-30, 23:13

In this case, it's both. The feelgood speeches cannot deny that wholly. Fremantle will fix current issues in Diablo, require new hardware, allow the community to inherit some of it's architecture, while basically becoming a deadend itself shortly thereafter.

I agree with you on the risk of parts of it becoming a deadend shortly thereafter. Which is one of the reasons Mer is actually 'MaEmo Reconstructed", and not "Fremantle backport to N8x0". While a backport may have been easier, such a backport would be unsustainable and would become a deadend shortly after as more developers move on to newer devices. So, we decided to take the difficult road - which does take longer time but will be more interesting over time.

YoDude

2009-07-30, 23:16

A single use (once per device) OS...

... The feelgood speeches cannot deny that wholly. Fremantle will fix current issues in Diablo, require new hardware, allow the community to inherit some of it's architecture, while basically becoming a deadend itself shortly thereafter.

Cool! Just like Microsoft only 5 years later. :rolleyes:

Windows Mobile 2003 Second Edition (http://reviews.cnet.com/1990-3127_7-5148191-1.html)

So is it worth the upgrade? If you desire any of these functionalities, Windows Mobile 2003 SE is definitely worth a look, but just because you want it doesn't mean you'll be able to get it...

***

So... for a non-developer, plain ol' consumer, real world user of an existing Nokia iT... purchasing the presumably much more expensive Freemantle device is not a very good upgrade strategy.

BTW, what is a good upgrade strategy for an existing NIT user?

silvermountain

2009-07-30, 23:20

silvermountain

2009-07-30, 23:31

A single use (once per device) OS with the majority of it's UI/presentational layer being replaced and those prior parts being deprecated almost as fast as it comes out spells out (to me) that Fremantle will be as stillborn as Diablo.

The kind ways of stating "no, it'll be continued to be supported by the community" yields no comfort from a future purchase because thrice over people have been limited to a Nokia device that has no clear method to upgrade to the next version using their re-appropriated machine due to either hardware or software limitations.

That way of viewing things is rather interesting to me as I am one of those people that are considering getting an N900 when it comes out and if it is well received. One of the things I do love about Linux and Maemo in particular as that is the only distro I've been exposed to - is the community support and involvement.

If the N900 would come with a presentational layer that is in lack of better words dead-ended in that it will not continue onto other h/w devices I must admit that I, as a novice, would feel that I would be buying into a device that will soon lack support and s/w updates as focus moves on.

Even a community as active as this can't possibly juggle updates and ports between, what, five?, OS versions (Diablo/Chinook/Mer/Fremantle/Harmattan).

I guess some would phase out - but aren't people still using Chinook and maybe there will still be users clinging on to Diablo after Mer comes out. It still feels like efforts would/could be spread very thin.

I know that my views are simplistic but I also think that I may represent a part of the potential customer base for the N900 and I'm curious as to how Nokia is/will be addressing such concerns).

gerbick

2009-07-30, 23:43

I agree with you on the risk of parts of it becoming a deadend shortly thereafter. Which is one of the reasons Mer is actually 'MaEmo Reconstructed", and not "Fremantle backport to N8x0". While a backport may have been easier, such a backport would be unsustainable and would become a deadend shortly after as more developers move on to newer devices. So, we decided to take the difficult road - which does take longer time but will be more interesting over time.

And I'll state this until I'm blue in the face. Your (the Mer team) efforts are nothing short of amazing, made possible by Nokia getting the right stuff to you all... and I thank you for that.

Trust me. Without the community and the Mer Team; I don't know what I'd do other than fully lose faith. I'm waiting... and that's fine. And where I can help - which again isn't much - I will.

Thank you.

qgil

2009-07-30, 23:54

So... for a non-developer, plain ol' consumer, real world user of an existing Nokia iT... purchasing the presumably much more expensive Freemantle device is not a very good upgrade strategy.

Plain ol' consumers, real world users will start thinking their purchasing strategy when they see a new device announced with a price tag attached. Discussing Harmattan with Diablo in your hands is just too abstract for end users.

This was an announcement done to platform developers primarily, also to application developers. The basic conclusions a user could get is that Nokia has a mid term strategy for Maemo that is based on certain technologies that would make it easier to have applications available also in Symbian and other mobile platforms. If such users are concerned about open source, the announcement gives them an idea that Maemo will keep being an open platform with open devices welcoming all kinds of toolkits, bindings, languages and alternative platforms.

gerbick

2009-07-30, 23:55

I know that my views are simplistic but I also think that I may represent a part of the potential customer base for the N900 and I'm curious as to how Nokia is/will be addressing such concerns).

And my views are seen as largely unpopular. No worries about how you view things... I'm just quite sure that Nokia will not address anything further than they have in the past.

Fixed in <enter name of upcoming build>

At least Mer gives me a bit of hope.

deadmalc

2009-07-31, 06:52

Surely Fremantle will be as DOA as diablo is now.
Isn't the whole purpose of each release to essentially EOL the previous one, and build on it's successes?

Personally I'd like to see a tablet orientated kde4, which I am hoping this is essentially what Harmatten will be. (from a user point of view not a developer)

andy80

2009-07-31, 07:27

So I was listening to the latest episode of The Linux Actionshow podcast today (Season 10, episode 9 (http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/?p=928)) and even though I am far from a Linux expert I found the following interesting e I want to see if I was even close to understand what was said :)

Based on their discussion, about the NITs, they said that Freemantle is the operating layer of the next NIT - but after that it will not be continued as after that Nokia is continuing with QT.

Does that mean that Freemantle in essence is being developed to run on N900 - and that's it?

Nokia will switch from Gtk to Qt, but this doesn't mean that Gtk will be unusable. It's at a very good stage at the moment, surely better than what is Qt for now, since they're still working on the Maemo/Qt.

Gtk will be only community-supported like, for example, is Python support now. This doesn't mean you cannot use it to develop something interesting, look for example the grat job is doing that guy with gPodder or the Canola team.

I personally do prefear Qt toolkit, but it's just my own opinion, and I'm very happy about this switch.

I think that the next N*** will be a good product ;)

Well I cannot be sure about this, but.... I trust them :)

flareup

2009-07-31, 09:14

Plain ol' consumers, real world users will start thinking their purchasing strategy when they see a new device announced with a price tag attached.

yes, but reviews count for a great deal in an over-populated market sector (phones) and reviewers will point out that the UI/OS is basically redundant. "Consumers" aren't stupid, and in hard times they tend to get even smarter.

vvaz

2009-07-31, 10:41

BTW, what is a good upgrade strategy for an existing NIT user?

Don't know if there is universal "good upgrade strategy". I can only say what I will do: everything depends on price *and* if N900 hardware will be supported by Harmattan.

If starting price > $400 or hardware future not clear I will skip and wait for Harmattan. My aging N800 is still good enough for most of my uses.

Peet

2009-07-31, 10:47

<...> Nokia is saying in Harmattan, - Qt is the toolkit we support/develop/etc. And I personally think that's a great choice to make. Targetting Qt specifically instead of a weird combo of Gtk+, with Hildon widgets on top, can only be a benefit - and allow us to put the Maemo platform (system daemons, APIs, etc) and our applications on a lot of different things - Maemo GTK+ is a bad mess for portability.

Why don't you say what you really think. :p

What interests me is how much of this full-on switch of loyalty (for the lack of better word) is down to Nokia's desperation to replace the much-maligned Symbian mobile phone platform as fast as they possibly can and their takeover of Qt software, and how much is down to Nokia's lack of control or lack of faith in the direction and abilities of GTK and Hildon?

I am not arguing the decision to switch per se; it must've been made at least a year or two before Maemo users and ordinary developers were told about it... Ergo, I hope Nokia succeeds while managing to keep the new system open enough.

Peet

2009-07-31, 11:24

Which is why the effort - and results - of Nokia and the Mer (http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer) team are to be lauded in providing a continued mechanism for supporting out-of-date hardware in a commercially realistic way.

Commercially realistic?

a) Most if not all of the commercial developers are porting their apps (Skype, Gizmo, Flash etc.) to Fremantle and those apps will be compatible with Mer as well?

b) Some of the commercial apps will be ported to Fremantle and they will be compatible with Mer as well, the rest will still work despite linking to old Chinook/Diablo-era libraries?

c) All or some of the currently available (but generally aging) commercial apps will continue working under Mer thanks to compatibility layers with the old Chinook/Diablo platform, but the commercial developers will have nothing to do with Mer compatibility?

d) ??

Even a community as active as this can't possibly juggle updates and ports between, what, five?, OS versions (Diablo/Chinook/Mer/Fremantle/Harmattan).

I guess some would phase out - but aren't people still using Chinook and maybe there will still be users clinging on to Diablo after Mer comes out. It still feels like efforts would/could be spread very thin.

I have a feeling that the majority of N8x0 users will stick with whatever was installed in their tablet or what they can flash on it using the Official Update Applet; i.e Chinook or Diablo. Most MS-Windows users certainly, and probably many Linux users too.

javispedro

2009-07-31, 11:28

Personally I'd like to see a tablet orientated kde4, which I am hoping this is essentially what Harmatten will be. (from a user point of view not a developer)
Doubt that; Gnome and KDE not only differ in toolkit, and while switching toolkits is something you can force yourself to, switching philosophies is not.

I personally expect we're going to see what Mark Shuttleworth's once dreamt: QT/Gnome (Mobile).

qgil

2009-07-31, 12:04

yes, but reviews count for a great deal in an over-populated market sector (phones) and reviewers will point out that the UI/OS is basically redundant. "Consumers" aren't stupid, and in hard times they tend to get even smarter.

Reviewers are actually not that different from users: they pay attention specially when there is some product with known specs and price tag - something to look at and play with.

Let's see what they say when the announcements are made.

Of course consumers aren't stupid! Even less the potential Maemo users, quite demanding and well informed customers - with plenty of choices at hand. We are working to have something good for them (for you).

The UI/OS is not redundant: is evolving. One day Maemo 5 final will be launched with a device, and this will be the best OS/UI and the best device Maemo will have done. Of course we keep working on further releases and products that should bring better OS/UI and better devices, better developer offering, better compability with other platforms etc.

Also note that you are mixing 2 things: change of toolkit with hardware incompatibilities. Fremantle is not officially supported in OMAP2 devices (N810m N800) because we concluded that Maemo 5 was too much for that hardware if commercially supported. In comparison, the GTK+ and Qt toolkits are very similar in terms of hardware demands. They sit too high in the platform and, as we are insisting, the middleware underneath stays more or less the same, of course with significant version upgrades and enhancements.

So the discussion of Harmattan running or not on the next device has actually little to do with the toolkit officially supported and more on other aspects like what features will Harmattan bring, demanding what hardware capabilities and at what point of time.

Discussing this paragraph above when there is not even a Maemo 5 device announced is an exercise of pure Summer entertainment. (which is fine for the Summer, don't get me wrong) :)

VDVsx

2009-07-31, 12:32

In comparison, the GTK+ and Qt toolkits are very similar in terms of hardware demands. )

Historically Qt has proven to be faster than GTK+ on slow and limited hardware, as example see the former Qtopia distro in OpenMoko. But of course a lot of people disagree with that point :D

Jaffa

2009-07-31, 12:37

Commercially realistic?

i.e. it's commercially unrealistic to expect Nokia to constrain future devices' software by spending lots on supporting previous generation hardware.

However, they can garner goodwill (which translates into potential future sales) by assisting with the community taking on the work of maintaining - and enhancing - previous devices' OSes.

flareup

2009-07-31, 13:31

thanks for taking the time to reply qgil :)

One day Maemo 5 final will be launched with a device

that's the day we're all waiting for!

timsamoff

2009-07-31, 13:36

After reading this thread, I can only summarize what has already been said (sort of). This is really a developer discussion and could never be a user discussion. Sure, there will be a few users who are interested in all of this, but mostly, users are typically happy with their current device for quite some time -- and never come to maemo.org.

Being brought up on major mobile company contracts, most regular users expect to be with a specific device for at least two years -- and most users keep their devices longer. This changes when a new trend arises (RAZR, Blackberry Pearl, iPhone, etc.), but usually changes only occur when contracts are up.

But, that's hardware... When concerning software, it's a little different, but not much. I still know many PC users who are still running Win98 and many Mac users who still use OSX Tiger. They don't care either. (And, I dare you to show me a person who's really -- successfully and at an acceptable speed -- running the latest version of OSX on their old beige G3!)

So, thinking that all of this is a big deal for end-users (the larger market of end-users, not just us) is wrong.

As for developers... Well, from what I've seen, the Maemo Community are all a pretty smart bunch of people. And, being that you will still be able to use your beloved programming languages, I don't forsee any major issues in upgrading releases for new toolkits.

Tim

jperez2009

2009-07-31, 14:42

Right you are timsamoff.

Although I've only been a small part of this community and can't contribute much more than advice on getting certain programs to work properly via setting changes and workarounds, I still love to see all the various things happening with Mer and Fremantle/Harmattan. Although Diablo is no longer supported, I know the Maemo Team and Nokia is helping us as much as they can by lending a hand to the folks working on Mer, which will be a great OS.

Many of us end-users/inbetweeners, including myself, don't usually ever know what's going on behind the scenes, but the community is there to relay what is going on if the information is available.

We're waiting Nokia and Maemo Team and I know you will deliver. :D

Jesse~

cayle

2009-07-31, 21:11

I agree with timsamoff about it being primarily a developer problem.

As a developer, I had the similar questions about Fremantle/Harmattan. I'm just now at the point of starting development, and was trying to decide just which platform to target. It seems that at this point I have 3 options: non-Clutter, GTK for Mer; Clutter/GTK for Fremantle, or QT in anticipation of Harmattan. (Right now I am leaning towards sticking with non-Clutter GTK to target primarily (and maybe exclusively) Mer, because nothing that I've seen discussed so far seems compelling enough to purchase the upcoming Fremantle hardware). I'm waiting to make a final decision until more about the Fremantle devices is known.

While I am appreciative of Nokia's new attempts to keep the developer community informed, I somewhat think that they should have waited to even mention Harmattan until the actual Freemantle devices were out. Because after all, aren't we realistically looking at a 2-3 year time frame before a Harmattan device is even produced?

Cayle

Paxicide

2009-08-01, 03:35

Let's see what they say when the announcements are made.

Discussing this paragraph above when there is not even a Maemo 5 device announced is an exercise of pure Summer entertainment. (which is fine for the Summer, don't get me wrong) :)

I think the last day of "Summer" in my part of the world is September 7th...so is this a hint or is my imagination merely starved for an announcement and thus delusional?

More about Summer (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=307575&postcount=39)...

tissot

2009-08-01, 08:35

I think the last day of "Summer" in my part of the world is September 7th...so is this a hint or is my imagination merely starved for an announcement and thus delusional?

More about Summer (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=307575&postcount=39)...

It still fits nicely to the Nokia World in September 2-3 that has been already rumoured for some time to be rather big event this year for Nokia and announcements for many new devices including Rover.

theflew

2009-08-01, 15:01

@cayle

I think Harmattan is planned for next year, not 2 - 3 years from now. I would imagine it will be an update for Freemantle devices a year after they're out. I couldn't imagine Harmattan not running on the Freemantle devices given they will be able to run Qt 4.5 when they come out via community support.

Personally the application I'm planning on writing will be Qt based given that it has the longest know path.

lma

2009-08-01, 16:40

I couldn't imagine Harmattan not running on the Freemantle devices given they will be able to run Qt 4.5 when they come out via community support.

You can't draw any conclusions from that. Diablo devices are able to run Qt 4.5 right now and we know they won't even run Fremantle, let alone Harmattan.

GeneralAntilles

2009-08-01, 17:08

You can't draw any conclusions from that. Diablo devices are able to run Qt 4.5 right now and we know they won't even run Fremantle, let alone Harmattan.

Sure we can, there's a reason Nokia decided against backporting Diablo, and it has nothing to do with Qt: hardware. Based on that we can extrapolate most of the necessary information about that to determine Harmattan's likelihood of running on Fremantle hardware.

So, based on its likely timeframe (1-1.5 years away), and the likely hardware landscape at that time (OMAP4 not likely to be available), and what we know about current and future hardware (OMAP4 does not offer additional hardware features over OMAP3 that would greatly increase the difficulty of any backport), we come to the conclusion that running Harmattan on Fremantle devices should offer little to no difficulty.

theflew

2009-08-01, 17:35

You can't draw any conclusions from that. Diablo devices are able to run Qt 4.5 right now and we know they won't even run Fremantle, let alone Harmattan.

I agree you can't draw conclusions, but I think the N8XX is a different issue. I imagine if Nokia really wanted to, Fremantle could have been supported on the N8XX (assuming accelerated graphics drivers were released). But from a business sense it didn't make sense from a cost perspective (development, testing, support, maintenance). Yes it would have made people here happy, but would do little harm otherwise. Instead they could invest most of their time and effort on the "next" device that has more breathing room hardware wise.

From an end user standpoint Nokia could upgrade from Freemantle to Harmattan and the "casual" user might not even know.

The fact Nokia has been able to keep the N9XX hardware secret this long probably means they wont release a device that has a 1 year software lifespan. Also that's not saying their won't be a N9XX+ that doesn't come with Harmattan installed with new features.

lma

2009-08-01, 17:57

Sure we can, there's a reason Nokia decided against backporting Diablo, and it has nothing to do with Qt: hardware. Based on that
we can extrapolate most of the necessary information about that to determine Harmattan's likelihood of running on Fremantle hardware.

I don't believe we can extrapolate anything at the moment. Very little (http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Maemo_roadmap/Harmattan) information about Harmattan is public, and none at all about the hardware it will run on.

So, based on its likely timeframe (1-1.5 years away), and the likely hardware landscape at that time (OMAP4 not likely to be available)

These are pure speculation and/or wishful thinking currently. It could just as easily be 2+ years away like Fremantle, with one or more hardware iterations in between like the N810 and N810WE, and it could be based on a non-TI or even non-ARM CPU.

we come to the conclusion that running Harmattan on Fremantle devices should offer little to no difficulty.

Even if there are no hardware or software surprises and that turns out to be true, it could just as easily be another case of "we can't devote resources to maintaining RX-[57]1, use Mer".

I'm not saying that Harmattan won't run on Fremantle-generation devices, just that right now we can't know - and I suspect even Nokia themselves don't.

YoDude

2009-08-01, 19:10

timsamoff

2009-08-01, 19:13

because of the dismal support collateral provided by Nokia for the tablets in the past, just about every NIT user visited ITT... if only out of necessity.
Hmmm... I don't know. Do you have numbers? ;)

I know two NIT owners (my cousin and a former coworker) who love their out-of-the-box tablets and have never been here (or itT). Sure, that's not a lot, but if we all knew two...

Tim

Jaffa

2009-08-01, 19:20

I know two NIT owners (my cousin and a former coworker) who love their out-of-the-box tablets and have never been here (or itT). Sure, that's not a lot, but if we all knew two...

Ditto, I know at least three.

There's a collective arrogance that ITT/tmo is the place where every NIT owner goes and knows that's prevalent here. If nothing else, there are lots of non-English Maemo websites with users who never come here.

theflew

2009-08-01, 19:29

I know my brother and sister--in-law have N810's and they don't come to this site. I installed a couple of programs when the first got them after seeing mine (Canola, mplayer, etc..). Setup modest to pull their email and they have never looked back. I imagine only 30% of tablet owners have ever come to this site. Not saying this isn't a good site, but most casual users buy things for the out of the box experience. If it suites their needs they keep it, if not it is returned.

Most issues discussed on this site are for enthusiasts not typical end users.

daperl

2009-08-01, 19:37

gerbick

2009-08-01, 19:39

After reading this thread, I can only summarize what has already been said (sort of). This is really a developer discussion and could never be a user discussion.

I would have agreed; if the developers actually delivered something regularly for the platform.

They didn't. They waited for the fixes, they're coming in Fremantle. Those fixes will be temporary, on it's way to Harmattan.

It has more to do with user perception simply because the developers didn't do **** this iteration and are going to be limited in the next iteration.

As a developer, I had to wait for Adobe Flex to go from headache 1.0/1.01 to semi-usable 1.5 to worthwhile 2.0, quickly replaced with 3.0 and presently beta-testing 4.0 and not finding myself looking backwards.

Yet, I had to deliver each and every step. Is my view skewed? Of course. But to push any type of discussions under the rug with blanket, self-fulfilling statements like "it's a developer problem", "it'll make sense in the future", "you'll change your mind with the press releases"... seriously. That's a call of faith.

No prior product or support to have faith in, that creates bad perception... by developer and user alike.

Only fanboys and hopefuls will fall into line. And to treat skeptics with such disregard... alarming. Each view is worth discussion.

Sorta what a forum is all about. Seems like a few of you people want no discussion, just a group of sheep instead.

Again, perception.

YoDude

2009-08-01, 21:27

Hmmm... I don't know. Do you have numbers? ;)

I know two NIT owners (my cousin and a former coworker) who love their out-of-the-box tablets and have never been here (or itT). Sure, that's not a lot, but if we all knew two...

Tim

Wow... and the heads go into the sand once again.:rolleyes:

If we all knew 2 then Nokia would have something now wouldn't they?

BTW, did these 2 own a tablet before the seamless software update? Did they ever re-flash? How many of your conversations with them involve the question "How do I (insert NIT subject here)..."?

I am not trying to start a pissing contest here and whatever numbers I might use are meaningless with out context but there are only 474 apps here >> http://maemo.org/downloads/OS2008/

Even if each project had 5 individual and distinct team members, that is only 2370 developers total. :eek:

I believe there are quite a few more members here than 2400 and unless we are all involved in projects that haven't been developed before, one could argue that what remains are users. In fact I would argue we are all everyday, run of the mill device users first and developers, bon vivants, and/or hangers on second. :)

Over the past 2 and a half years my NIT has developed into a useful tool that I use everyday. I have no complaints. :cool:

gerbick

2009-08-01, 21:38

So since I don't know not one other person that owns a NIT, how does that factor in?

sjgadsby

2009-08-01, 23:11

I can only speak to my father, but...

...own a tablet before the seamless software update?

Yes. He's had an N800 since Chinook Bora, and he's not spoken of any trouble.

Did they ever re-flash?

Yes, to Chinook and then Diablo. He didn't mention any problems; he only said he liked the updated look and enhanced performance.

How many of your conversations with them involve the question "How do I (insert NIT subject here)..."?

None. He bought his tablet for web browsing and email at coffee shops, and he seems happy enough using it for that. He didn't want to carry a notebook, and he didn't want the small screen and large monthly cost of a smartphone.

GeneralAntilles

2009-08-01, 23:13

Unless Nokia plans on providing additional channels of support for Fremantle/Harmattan, that won't change. Except now they/we will be coming to maemo.org instead. :)

No, as has been said before (talking about head in the sand . . . we've got a bad case of fingers in ears here :rolleyes:), maemo.nokia.com will be the place for regular users to go for support.

Texrat

2009-08-01, 23:42

Hmmm... I don't know. Do you have numbers? ;)

I know two NIT owners (my cousin and a former coworker) who love their out-of-the-box tablets and have never been here (or itT). Sure, that's not a lot, but if we all knew two...

Tim

I provided about 18 tablets to friends, colleagues and family.

I am the only one of that group to visit ITT.

YoDude

2009-08-02, 01:19

Well then... I stand corrected...

Nokia has provided plenty of support for the tablets and has not relied on this community to answer questions like "where is the swap key?" after releasing an update days before a company wide, two week holiday...

My bad... I must not have drank the same kool-aid as some. :p

EDIT: Added...

No, as has been said before (talking about head in the sand . . . we've got a bad case of fingers in ears here :rolleyes:), maemo.nokia.com will be the place for regular users to go for support.

Where? A Google search of maemo.nokia.com comes back to here. If you are talking about the future then when?

Talk about developers vs. users seems to suck the enthusiasm out this for me at least.

What's so hard about saying we are all users of the device and we don't separate this community into factions?

Is it safer for some to feel they belong to some elite sub-group or suttin'?

My comment about heads in the sand referred to a belief that a new user of a Maemo device wouldn't come here... They will. Just as they have after each time buy.com or whoever lowers their price. When a new device hits the market they will come here again... unless maemo.nokia.com does something magical to Google page rank. :eek:

Be prepared to answer this threads question as well as many other questions, over and over, all over again. :)

Peet

2009-08-02, 08:28

I'd expect Nokia to keep tabs on how many individual tablets have been updated to new (incl. which) versions of firmware.

I personally found ITT even before I began hunting for my tablet (I reckoned it being open source any software updates would be more-or-less future-proof so the half-bakedness didn't bother me all that much...), so I haven't kept an eye on the upgrade and community information Nokia dispenses via their official channels.

What kind of information does a new and relatively inexperienced user get from Nokia without googling the right keywords and getting lucky?

Most improvements to Chinook/Diablo user experience require at least some elbow grease and the user experience of the plain standard install is also decaying due to cruft and with web standards and app compatibilities moving forward.

So, how does this relate to Fremantle's potential "stillborn" status and the community?

If the N900 would come with a presentational layer that is in lack of better words dead-ended in that it will not continue onto other h/w devices I must admit that I, as a novice, would feel that I would be buying into a device that will soon lack support and s/w updates as focus moves on.

Even a community as active as this can't possibly juggle updates and ports between, what, five?, OS versions (Diablo/Chinook/Mer/Fremantle/Harmattan).

I guess some would phase out - but aren't people still using Chinook and maybe there will still be users clinging on to Diablo after Mer comes out. It still feels like efforts would/could be spread very thin.

I know that my views are simplistic but I also think that I may represent a part of the potential customer base for the N900 and I'm curious as to how Nokia is/will be addressing such concerns).

I wonder what percentage of Nokia tablet owners are genuinely happy with the level of support (incl. software updates - also by major partners- and present/future platform support). Bonus points for breaking up that stat between 1) those who've never updated anything, 2) those who simply flashed an upgrade, 3) those who've been to ITT but didn't stick around, and 4) us die-hard users and developers.

One of the keys to a healthy community is keeping the potential members involved or interested (and also not fragmented). I don't think I've ever received any communication from Nokia about anything related to the tablets.

lma

2009-08-02, 08:39

I'd expect Nokia to keep tabs on how many individual tablets have been updated to new (incl. which) versions of firmware.

They can't ,really. You may have to enter the WLAN MAC address to access the firmware downloads, but once you download an image you can flash any number of devices with it.
SSU updates make it even harder, as the downloads are "anonymous" (and does Akamai even provide http access logs?)

lma

2009-08-02, 08:56

Historically Qt has proven to be faster than GTK+ on slow and limited hardware, as example see the former Qtopia distro in OpenMoko.

That's not a valid comparison IMHO. Historically Qtopia on Openmoko drew directly on the framebuffer, while the Neo X server had very poor performance. On Maemo both GTK+ and Qt run on top of X11, and the devices have decent display hardware (2D at least) acceleration.

Jaffa

2009-08-02, 09:03

It has more to do with user perception simply because the developers didn't do **** this iteration and are going to be limited in the next iteration.

Which developers? Whilst Diablo's been out we've had Tear, FlipClock, and many others. But you're right; Diablo's been a maintenance release so the flurry of stuff for Chinook's carried through to Diablo.

As for Fremantle, external developers are already doing cool things and are excited about the increased CPU power, 3D acceleration, accelerometers and more compelling UI.

If you're talking about Nokia developers, I don't see your point.

Only fanboys and hopefuls will fall into line. And to treat skeptics with such disregard... alarming. Each view is worth discussion. Sorta what a forum is all about. Seems like a few of you people want no discussion, just a group of sheep instead.

People are discussing it. But because some are disagreeing with you there's a sub-conscious conspiracy of fanboys to silence any dissent from the company line? Pfft.

As for the Gtk+ -> Qt transition, it's not unexpected; we'll probably lose some developers and gain some new ones. Development will become easier and more consistent (certainly easier to avoid Scratchbox with things like PyQt).

The increased disk space rumoured to be coming in the next generation of devices means that a package pulling in Gtk from Extras will be no harder, or troublesome, than pulling in Python now.

tso

2009-08-02, 10:35

That's not a valid comparison IMHO. Historically Qtopia on Openmoko drew directly on the framebuffer, while the Neo X server had very poor performance. On Maemo both GTK+ and Qt run on top of X11, and the devices have decent display hardware (2D at least) acceleration.

iirc, fremantle will be the first maemo release to use a full X11, diable and earlier use a more limited version on top of framebuffer...

gerbick

2009-08-02, 17:53

Which developers? Whilst Diablo's been out we've had Tear, FlipClock, and many others. But you're right; Diablo's been a maintenance release so the flurry of stuff for Chinook's carried through to Diablo.

What "flurry" of apps? I've listed out what has not been updated since Chinook or early 2008 mostly in another thread: Skype, Gizmo, Evince, Xournal, MPlayer, RTComm, MicroB, Flash Player, Media Player, Maps. And I've stated what has been updated: Tear, DialCentral, Mauku, the Home Apps (HomeIP, et al)...

There was no flurry of apps. A few applets here and there, or the apps that came from Fiferboy - Personal Launcher, Yellow Notes 0.2, etc. - were... for the most part all that I installed and wanted. The rest weren't anywhere near ready for primetime.

As for Fremantle, external developers are already doing cool things and are excited about the increased CPU power, 3D acceleration, accelerometers and more compelling UI.

And yet the accelerometer apps for the iPhone here are dismissed as gimmick. Same thing to be honest.

Where are the apps that people actually want/use that are commercial? Adobe FP10 - we have to wait for the Open Screen initiative because... well, it could have been updated but hasn't been - blame Adobe or Nokia. Where's the updated browser and not the dead end fork that we still use today? Where's the RTComm that uses the included camera and Skype that's been updated since December 2007?

I don't want another flip clock. I have a watch, I have a cellphone, I have a clock widget on the NIT already. That's like having 8 different ways to edit a text file. Do I need 8 different ways to edit a *.txt file? No. Waste of space.

If you're talking about Nokia developers, I don't see your point.

See above. Browser, Maps, RTComm, et al. None of it, updated yet supplied by Nokia. Which part of it has not been updated by Nokia since less than a year after the N810 release are you willing to deny?

You people are just being unrealistic. Sure, Fremantle is being discussed. Diablo was born dead. Chinook is dead. Bora, extremely dead. I get it. But Fremantle... soon to die too. Harmattan is where people are already looking.

And I have no reason to join the next iteration because of how I saw it go from the 770 to N800/N810 to this upcoming model in about 3 years and support lasting only one year on a non-phone but pocket computer (basically)... sorry, but my gadgets aren't that disposable.

So I'll be waiting on Qt, Harmattan and watching the N900 basically become obselete by next Winter (2010)... about a year after its release.

With the talks going on, even a cursory glance supports what I just said. The N900 will not be anything but replaced soon thereafter, Harmattan is where Nokia might actually stop killing parts of this Maemo platform and deprecating main UI bits and settle in on an upgrade path that makes sense.

Right now, all I see is Mobile Windows 2003/2003 Second Edition all over again. Only with root access and more fanaticism.

KristianW

2009-08-02, 19:02

Gerbick's impressions point to what I am thinking.

I believe Nokia has used the tablets N770 - N810 as stepping stones towards a future of Linux pocketables.
Someone from Nokia spoke of steps 1 to 5, N810 beeing nr. 3.

My guess is that Nokia has focused their software development on the future pocket Linux OS,
and used the tablets to communicate with the Linux community.
Of course the tablets had to be useful for consumers, but I guess that Nokia will target more professional use
first with "step 5 (4?)". Nr. 5 = Harmattan ? Or Harmattan+ ?

E.g.:
Surfing on complex websites with many photos is a bit slow, many pro's would want more power before they consider leaving their laptop at home.
In Sweden shops have never had these tablets in stock, although we are rather gadget minded.
You could buy them from web stores, or order them at your dealer, but then he'd expect you to buy.

Consider Nokias strategy of (heavily) bying into supporting development, and at the same time preparing a continuation of Symbian more independant of Nokia.

silvermountain

2009-08-02, 19:05

tso

2009-08-02, 19:37

iirc, the n810 is still step 2. And the steps are neither software nor hardware based, again iirc. Basically, its some kind of nebulous plan that by now may well have been altered...

KristianW

2009-08-02, 21:06

Would you have a link to where Nokia talked about '1-5'?

Sorry, I'm afraid I don't remember.
Sometime around last november / december.
After the big announcement (or in it ?) of maemo 5, I think.
Check the threads in ITT where upcoming, and then announced, maemo 5 was discussed.

EDIT:
iirc, the n810 is still step 2. And the steps are neither software nor hardware based, again iirc. Basically, its some kind of nebulous plan that by now may well have been altered...

Possibly it was maemo 5 that was called step 3. ?.

tso

2009-08-02, 21:28

to be honest, i am starting to suspect it was just a saying to indicate that nokia was in for the long haul when it came to the tablets, rather then some side project they would drop at the first moment of trouble.

kinda like those 5 step programs to get something done with ones life...
(not the most confidence building comparison maybe, but still...)

Mox

2009-08-08, 18:02

iirc, the n810 is still step 2. And the steps are neither software nor hardware based, again iirc. Basically, its some kind of nebulous plan that by now may well have been altered...

References to the 5 steps...
http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2008/09/osim-news-whats-up-with-maemo.html

and the related presentation:
http://www.slideshare.net/silpol/nokia-and-maemo-next-iteration-presentation/

Jaffa

2009-08-08, 19:11

References to the 5 steps...
http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2008/09/osim-news-whats-up-with-maemo.html

and the related presentation:
http://www.slideshare.net/silpol/nokia-and-maemo-next-iteration-presentation/

That talks about the "5th iteration of Maemo" - which means Maemo 5, i.e. Fremantle which'll be running on Rover. Unless I missed it on a quick re-review, there's nothing there which refers to the 2005/2006 memes of Nokia's "5 step plan" for Maemo devices.

However, it's been made clear that market conditions have changed; and any "5 step plan" conceived in 2005 has not survived unchanged into 2009.

fpp

2009-08-08, 19:47

Historically Qt has proven to be faster than GTK+ on slow and limited hardware, as example see the former Qtopia distro in OpenMoko. But of course a lot of people disagree with that point :D

Not I. When I got my 770 in late 2005, I had a Sharp Zaurus C760 which was already a couple of years old. Although its hardware showed its age, using it felt much snappier than OS2005 on the 770...

waspinator

2009-08-11, 14:23

It's too bad that nokia will break compatibility with it's previous tablets with this new release.

Jaffa

2009-08-11, 15:21

It's too bad that nokia will break compatibility with it's previous tablets with this new release.

It's not really "broken". Pretty much anything should be pretty much recompilable. However, we (as a community) are raising the bar for Extras' applications so that apps should be updated to the new HIG, development standards and UI controls available to them.

geneven

2009-08-11, 15:23

timsamoff

2009-08-11, 15:34

I think that someone in this thread once estimated that there were a million tablet owners out there, or some similarly giant number. That seemed unlikely to me at the time, but -- does anyone know how many unique visitors have come to this site, approximately? I doubt if a million have.
How many iPod owners do you think have ever been to the apple.com site? My wife never has -- she doesn't care. She has a device that works well enough with iTunes (in Windows 2000 for that matter).

On top of that, how many tablet owners do you think have gone to the nokia.com site? Probably a lot more than have come here. But, most likely, still much less than the actual customer base.

Tim