View Full Version : Price of N900 Crazy or just me?
andrewfblack
2009-08-28, 13:40
Ok I tried to start talking about this in other n900 thread but it kept getting lost I think. I don't know about you guys but it wasn't that easy to justify $450 for my N810 about a year and a half ago. There is no way I could justify over $700 for n900 if I had the money. Lets do a little poll and see what other people think about the price. I'm sure this wont do any good but lets at least see what happens.
TrueJournals
2009-08-28, 13:41
It's a phone. The idea is that part of the price will be subsidized by carriers.
mobiledivide
2009-08-28, 13:44
Just you ;)
For a high end flagship type unlocked mobile phone $599 to $699 is standard.
Compare prices of unlocked iphones, palm pre's, HTC flagships, N97's for evidence.
If Nokia introduce a cellularless tablet then that would be expected to be more in the line of $399.
ColdFusion
2009-08-28, 13:45
I think it's just you.
It's a high-end mobile phone, what do you expect? I actually think it's cheap compared to other much more expensive phones that aren't as capable as the n900.
And 700$ isn't that much money anyway imho.
andrewfblack
2009-08-28, 13:49
It's a phone. The idea is that part of the price will be subsidized by carriers.
Thats another problem, unless they sell them from my carrier that wouldn't help me also I would also have to be able to upgrade my phone which would be almost 2 years for me since I just got a new phone.
derhorst
2009-08-28, 13:52
Is $700 official?
andrewfblack
2009-08-28, 13:54
every where I saw a price its suspected to be 500 euro converter I used says thats about $715 I rounded it down I'm sure that they will adjust it some so the number looks nice like $699.99. $715 just looks strange.
Den in USA
2009-08-28, 14:01
It's a phone. The idea is that part of the price will be subsidized by carriers.
I found this link that shows that T-Moble intends to carry the N900 in the U.S. which means we may only pay a couple hundred dollars if we sign up with them.
http://hotcellularphone.com/nokia/tmobile-launch-nokia-n900-rover-tablet/
Just you.
Let's wait and see what the price is when it hits the streets and the carriers.
Either way I'm getting two.
derhorst
2009-08-28, 14:03
It's usually 1:1 so $500-$600 sounds more reasonable IMO
Den in USA
2009-08-28, 14:03
I found this link that shows that T-Moble intends to carry the N900 in the U.S. which means we may only pay a couple hundred dollars if we sign up with them.
http://hotcellularphone.com/nokia/tm...-rover-tablet/
andrewfblack
2009-08-28, 14:06
It's usually 1:1 so $500-$600 sounds more reasonable IMO
if its 1:1 then Europeans are getting even more screwed because they would basically be paying $200 more for the same phone.
derhorst
2009-08-28, 14:09
if its 1:1 then Europeans are getting even more screwed because they would basically be paying $200 more for the same phone.
We are dumb enough to pay that much. That's the way it goes.
Where is the "I'll skip having kids to buy two" option?
andrewfblack
2009-08-28, 14:15
I never really thought someone would select skip feeding kids its there more as a joke. lol
allnameswereout
2009-08-28, 14:30
600 EUR is a reasonable price IMO. Remember its flagship product, and performance wise the cream of the crop.
Thesandlord
2009-08-28, 14:51
I found this link that shows that T-Moble intends to carry the N900 in the U.S. which means we may only pay a couple hundred dollars if we sign up with them.
http://hotcellularphone.com/nokia/tm...-rover-tablet/
Link not working...
bunanson
2009-08-28, 15:02
...
And 700$ isn't that much money anyway imho.
WOW!
bun
if its 1:1 then Europeans are getting even more screwed because they would basically be paying $200 more for the same phone.
They're doing that to us with every gadget.
MacBook: US-$ 999,- vs EUR 949,-
US-$ 999 are EUR 707,- if directly converted (okay, add VAT or sales tax to the US price, it is included in the european (or at least german) pricing).
if its 1:1 then Europeans are getting even more screwed because they would basically be paying $200 more for the same phone.
Yep, and although we can always buy goods in dollar when we come to visit USA (which I would do for a N900 :D:D) we're getting screwed by your different 3G system when it comes to phone !
I was lucky when I bought my E71 to found an american guy who had an european version of the phone, otherwise you just can't use 3G :mad:
Nelson L. Squeeko
2009-08-28, 15:39
Price is high, being subsidized is a good option (other than being on contract). Does anyone know who would carry this in Canada (and what networks it would work on)?
lemmyslender
2009-08-28, 15:42
I can't vote in the poll:
1) The price is probably reasonable in comparison to other high end phones out there. Whether the overall price structure is reasonable is a different argument.
2) I personally wouldn't pay more than $300-$400 for it (unlocked), as I wouldn't intend to use the phone features. If I'd even consider getting it.
3) It'd have to be <$99 subsidized, for me to even consider it, and have a minimum contract of <$25/month for 2 yrs.
imperiallight
2009-08-28, 15:43
Its quite cheap if you consider phone prices in Europe. We are regularly used to buying unlocked mobile phones for $1000+ when they come out.
Instead of a symbian/win mo OS we are getting a desktop computer with fantastic hardware to boot.
Like people said the phone is also heavily subsidized by carriers as its a mobile.
I could be wrong but I heard form an American that a reason why the latest phones don't reach the USA is that consumers are unwilling to pay unsubsidized prices.
Price is high, being subsidized is a good option (other than being on contract). Does anyone know who would carry this in Canada (and what networks it would work on)?
Most likely Rogers in Canada.
bobbarker
2009-08-28, 15:44
$700 makes sense unsubsidized but if it is more than $400 (okay maybe $500) from T-Mobile it won't sell but to those few people who adore the N8x0.
If it's not too bulky, sign me up.
Yeah, the pricing is in line with the market. Unfortunately.
I'd shell out $7-800 for an unlocked N900 set.
$700, it's not possible for me. let me dream that " 2000RMB " is acceptable for me. DAMN!!! exchange rate.
andyinsdca
2009-08-28, 17:00
I paid like $400 for my unlocked E71, so $600-700 or so for an unlocked N900 doesn't seem out of line to me. T-Mobile sucks in my area, so I wouldn't buy it through them if I can at all help it.
It has a lower official start price than the N97 had. I think that says everything for me.
TrueJournals
2009-08-28, 20:29
Thats another problem, unless they sell them from my carrier that wouldn't help me also I would also have to be able to upgrade my phone which would be almost 2 years for me since I just got a new phone.
That's the problem I have with the n900, and what's going to stop me from purchasing it unless there's either a developer discount program that I can actually get in to, or a "cell-less" version, which would be cheaper.
overfloat
2009-08-29, 02:32
the n900 price definitely seems in-line with what i would expect for a high-end phone at the time of its release. However, i will not be purchasing one because i move countries often for months at a time and a subsidized contract doesn't make sense for me. I'm hoping for a non-cellular version, let me keep my crappy motorola phone and give me a better non-phone internet tablet
Why are so many users here so "cheap"? What do you expect? That everyone gives away everything for free? How do you value the input of Nokia to create such a device? How do you value the fun and use that you will get out of it?
Come on, bei realistic. The N900 is a Superphone. It's pricing is inline with all other devices of this category. My N82 was at the same price level just 12 months ago, with a much smaller screen and inferor hardware and software.
I think we've just found the line where idealism and practicality (reality) meets...
It's just you. We Americans have lots of money even without jobs and with declining real estate values. We are just as enthusiastic about spending as always. There is no economic downturn! (Pay no attention to the repo-man behind the curtain.)
300-400? Are you serious, 24 dudes? iPhone 3Gs 32gb costs around $800 in europe and you want such an uber-phone as n900 for 300? Why not 100 or 50?
Not to get all political, and this isn't the real me, but this is a phone for the running-dog lackey capitalist imperialist expiring leisure class exploiters, and your days are numbered, pigs!
Paris Hilton can still afford one, sure. But cheap netbooks are what is in now, and expensive phones are on the way out.
sjgadsby
2009-08-29, 13:20
300-400? Are you serious, 24 dudes? ...you want such an uber-phone as n900 for 300?
Yep.
There are many items in this world sold at fair prices I won't pay. The rumored prices for the N900, if true, place it in those ranks. This doesn't mean the prices are unreasonable, it means I don't value the items enough to pay the price.
I don't value mobile phones. I have one now, as ~$42 US per year seemed worthwhile, but in a year, I probably make less than ten minutes of calls and pull up three or four Amazon pages via tethering to check prices while running errands.
T-Mobile does not have any plans competitive with what I have now. With them I would gain EDGE data speeds, but for a few price lookups per year, paying many times more money doesn't seem worth it. I'm not jumping at the opportunity to be their customer.
For me, the N900's only value is as a faster Internet Tablet, hopefully with Bluetooth DUN client capabilities eventually. I do want it for that. Very much. I'll wait until the price drops to the same "a little below $400" I paid for my N800 and N810 though.
andrewfblack
2009-08-29, 14:12
well good to see its not just me around 50% of the people who voted think it cost to much. BTW the phones you guys keep comparing this phone to has thousands of pieces of software the current maemo devices have only hundreds. So basicly your will be paying for $700 for a devices that doesn't run any more software right now then your n810. If the price drops and I see software development kick it into really high gear then I will look into upgrading. Until then I'll make a few car payments with the money.
Milhouse
2009-08-29, 14:23
Samsung reckon sub-$100 Android phones will be hitting the market in 2010. So the N900, is it overpriced? Absolutely - I can get a full laptop for less than the price of an N900! The N900 is, technically (and very loosely) a shrunken N810 with phone module and updated OMAP processor... can the smaller size and phone module justify double the price? I don't believe it can. The economics of the smartphone market will soon be redefined when the cheap and highly functional Android touchscreen phones start to appear, and I look forward to that happening as this is price gouging, pure and simple.
And while the N900 may be priced on the assumption it will be subsidised by the network operators, as I and many others buy our phones SIM-free we are getting well and truly shafted.
I'm disappointed the N900 wasn't priced as something of a loss leader to be honest, but I guess Nokia has to avoid undercutting their old pieces of sh1t, like the N97.
The economics of the smartphone market will soon be redefined when the cheap and highly functional Android touchscreen phones start to appear, and I look forward to that happening as this is price gouging, pure and simple.
Oh, sure, HTC Hero - 800 USD in here, old hardware, worse screen, no built in memory, so on. Call me when there will be "cheap and highly functional " Android phone.
This is what Nokia is aiming for:
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2009/07/market-share-tiny-profit-share-huge-for-iphone-blackberry.ars
"According to Modoff, RIM and Apple are taking 35 percent of the industry's operating profits despite only accounting for three percent of all handsets sold worldwide in 2008. When split out, he puts Apple at 20 percent of the profits and RIM at 15 percent. He estimates that 2009 will be even better for the two companies (and worse for everyone else)—they are expected to grow, together, to five percent of the market in terms of units and make 58 percent of the total operating profits."
ColonelKilkenny
2009-08-29, 14:37
Samsung reckon sub-$100 Android phones will be hitting the market in 2010. So the N900, is it overpriced? Absolutely - I can get a full laptop for less than the price of an N900! The N900 is, technically (and very loosely) a shrunken N810 with phone module and updated OMAP processor... can the smaller size and phone module justify double the price? I don't believe it can. The economics of the smartphone market will soon be redefined when the cheap and highly functional Android touchscreen phones start to appear, and I look forward to that happening as this is price gouging, pure and simple.
And while the N900 may be priced on the assumption it will be subsidised by the network operators, as I and many others buy our phones SIM-free we are getting well and truly shafted.
I'm disappointed the N900 wasn't priced as something of a loss leader to be honest, but I guess Nokia has to avoid undercutting their old pieces of sh1t, like the N97.
The market is not going to change too much when it comes to prices. High-end devices are high-end devices. If you want better CPU, you pay more. If you want better camera module with better lense, you pay more. If you want better build quality, you pay more. Etc.
If you want $100 smartphone, you're welcome to choose cheap Symbian or cheap Android phone, but there's a reason why the prices are low.
It's totally stupid to compare laptop prices and phone prices. Apples and oranges.
And btw. your N810 doesn't have e.g. a 5MP Carl Zeiss camera.
attila77
2009-08-29, 14:49
Samsung reckon sub-$100 Android phones will be hitting the market in 2010.
I guess you could make Maemo run on a sub-$100 device, too. That would be no N900, though. The question is who would want to own such a device ? Crappy hardware is crapy hardware, no matter how many shiny shoe-OS-polish you apply.
the price is more than reasonasble i paid more for a n96 and n97 what as less capable hardware running s60,
i think maemo community should think of thereselves as being lucky instead of moaning about price
btw on expansy if i want a iphone 3gs without contract i have to pay over £900 so price of n900 is nothing compared
http://www.expansys.com/d.aspx?i=183742
This poll is misleading because there is no single price of the N900, it's going to be a wide range of prices depending on where you buy it and under what terms you buy it.
It's launching for $700 unlocked in Europe, but all high end phones launch for about $700 unlocked in Europe. The iPhone is $700 in Europe if you buy it unlocked.
The unlocked price in North America will probably be less than $700, as electronics in general is usually about 25% cheaper there compared to European prices.
And as others have mentioned many (or even most?) people will be paying for this in installments through network operator contracts so the true price will be hidden from them in the monthly fees.
And most Americans don't seem to even know you can buy phones unlocked, so they'll never ever see any unlocked prices anyway.
the price is more than reasonasble i paid more for a n96 and n97 what as less capable hardware running s60,
i think maemo community should think of thereselves as being lucky instead of moaning about price
btw on expansy if i want a iphone 3gs without contract i have to pay over £900 so price of n900 is nothing compared
http://www.expansys.com/d.aspx?i=183742
It doesn't matter whether the n900 price is in line for the 'luxury smartphone' market or even slightly below it if the general maemo community cannot afford it.
ps: omg that's an insane 3gs price. i bought mine for around usd850.
Milhouse
2009-08-29, 15:22
It's totally stupid to compare laptop prices and phone prices. Apples and oranges.
And btw. your N810 doesn't have e.g. a 5MP Carl Zeiss camera.
5MP lenses, OMAP3 processors instead of OMAP2... components that costs a few dollars, do they really justify a $300+ price hike?
It's totally stupid to compare laptop prices and phone prices. Apples and oranges.
Not when Nokia are marketing the N900 the way they are... :)
I guess you could make Maemo run on a sub-$100 device, too. That would be no N900, though. The question is who would want to own such a device ? Crappy hardware is crapy hardware, no matter how many shiny shoe-OS-polish you apply.
Android on a sub-$100 phone - if it does pretty much everything the N900 does, how is it that different to the N900? Android is advancing in leaps and bounds, it has widespread device manufacturer support, and ARM-based CPUs are not expensive and becoming more powerful... once a low-price Android device hits the market it will become more difficult for Nokia to get away with charging N-series-type prices.
But why do you equate low-price with "crapy hardware" - because you've become so accustomed to being ripped of at the high end? The iPhone 3GS has a bill of materials totalling $175. Work it out. :)
My best guess is that it will compete with the iPhone, so is likely to have a similar pricing structure. However there won't be a parallel iPodTouch (the n900 sans GSM) at a lower price. It sounds like the numbers are very close between the two in europe.
It's launching for $700 unlocked in Europe, but all high end phones launch for about $700 unlocked in Europe. The iPhone is $700 in Europe if you buy it unlocked.
Are you implying that the retail price is not correlated to the real (development, manufacturing, distribution and profit) cost of the device (any device)?
If so I think you're absolutely right.
ColonelKilkenny
2009-08-29, 15:53
5MP lenses, OMAP3 processors instead of OMAP2... components that costs a few dollars, do they really justify a $300+ price hike?
We do not know what the parts cost. We do not know what does it cost to create a handset. However, we do know that the cost for manufacturer != BoM.
Not when Nokia are marketing the N900 the way they are... :)
Ok, try stuffing that laptop of yours to pocket.
Android on a sub-$100 phone - if it does pretty much everything the N900 does, how is it that different to the N900?
Depends on hardware, depends on software, depends on all sorts of things (like how open the platform is etc.).
You can get pen and paper with few dollars and do pretty much everything with them as well. It's just much easier to surf on web which you don't have to draw before using it :)
Android is advancing in leaps and bounds, it has widespread device manufacturer support, and ARM-based CPUs are not expensive and becoming more powerful... once a low-price Android device hits the market it will become more difficult for Nokia to get away with charging N-series-type prices.
You do realize that Nokia has also very cheap Symbian models? Use them or use those low-price Androids from future if you want a low-end device. You won't get low-priced high-end devices because usually companies don't like to make negative profits.
But why do you equate low-price with "crapy hardware" - because you've become so accustomed to being ripped of at the high end? The iPhone 3GS has a bill of materials totalling $175. Work it out. :)
That's iPhone 3G BoM, not 3GS. And those are estimates. What about manufacturing costs? Logistics? What about support costs? Etc. Etc.
crabolsky
2009-08-29, 15:59
Since technically it is a phone an unsubsidized price of $699 sounds right in line with the iPhone or HTC. However I do think that it is unfortunate that we won't have an option without 3g plan (ala n810 senario). As much as I would love to get back on board with a new Nokia tablet, Ian not going to get onboard with a 2year tmoble contract as I already have a year left with AT&T.
Don't forget that the cost per unit becomes lower the more unit they sell.
attila77
2009-08-29, 16:31
The iPhone 3GS has a bill of materials totalling $175. Work it out. :)
Android on a sub-$100 phone - if it does pretty much everything the N900 does, how is it that different to the N900?
OK, call me stupid, but... how is that $175 BOM going to result in a sub-$100 phone that has "pretty much" identical functionality ? Not to mention that the N900's HW costs a bit more than 3GS.
But why do you equate low-price with "crapy hardware" - because you've become so accustomed to being ripped of at the high end?
It's because I've never seen a Yugo I wanted to buy (yes, we make those here), even if someone put AC, leather seats and a nice air freshener in it.
Milhouse
2009-08-29, 17:01
That's iPhone 3G BoM, not 3GS. And those are estimates. What about manufacturing costs? Logistics? What about support costs? Etc. Etc.
You're right, I stand corrected - the iPhone 3G BoM is $175, the iPhone 3GS BoM is $179. Amazing how the retail price difference is so vast yet the cost of components is so similar!
I'm not suggesting companies should not recover their development costs or make a tidy profit, what I do object to is price gouging and while Nokia, Apple, Palm all do it I'm looking forward to the day when real price competition comes to the smartphone market which it will, hopefully, in 2010.
The component cost of the N900 is perhaps closer to $200 and Nokia will make and sell millions as they did with the N97. There's a lot of margin in these products, probably too much is all I'm saying, and while you all accept it as being "ok" and "fair" it will continue, and most likely worsen.
Other MIDs will come to market soon enough that will match the N900 in terms of functionality if not size, using many of the same if not identical components, made by much smaller manufacturers without the same economies of scale than Nokia, and yet they won't cost anything like $700... and each time I see one I will be forced to ask myself - if they can do that for (say, $400) why is the N900 so fecking expensive?
Milhouse
2009-08-29, 17:06
OK, call me stupid, but... how is that $175 BOM going to result in a sub-$100 phone that has "pretty much" identical functionality ? Not to mention that the N900's HW costs a bit more than 3GS.
Well first, as has already been pointed out, that's just an estimate - buy in the right quantities, threaten to go elsewhere, do deals for your other products (ie. iPods) and it might even work out less than the estimates. Secondly, technology costs go down with increased integration as performance increases etc. etc. so by next year, the same level of integration used in the iPhone may be available offering similar performance from a different manufacturer (Freescale?) for less money. Mobile phones are made by the million, the economies of scale are huge. Costs will go down. Margins and profits will only go up.
But honestly - I dunno, ask the guy at Samsung, it was his postulation and he should probably know. Guy at Samsung predicts (http://www.intomobile.com/2009/08/07/samsung-sub-100-android-phones-available-by-next-year.html).
I know we don't want to admit we're being ripped off by smartphone prices, but we all secretly know we are. ;-)
But honestly - I dunno, ask the guy at Samsung, it was his postulation and he should probably know. Guy at Samsung predicts (http://www.intomobile.com/2009/08/07/samsung-sub-100-android-phones-available-by-next-year.html).
I know we don't want to admit we're being ripped off by smartphone prices, but we all secretly know we are. ;-)
It's the same way that Apple is offering iPhone 3G for less. They're gonna sell cheap android phones with last year's (wait no, a bit longer than that) technology. Don't expect Cortex A8 level device here.
Mobile phones are made by the million, the economies of scale are huge. Costs will go down. Margins and profits will only go up.
If I understand you correctly, I think your conclusions are wrong. Apple raced out of the gate to create their high profit margins. If people start catching up, costs should level out and prices should drop, and thus profit margins should go down if competition is tight.
attila77
2009-08-29, 17:52
No, what I don't understand how *ANDROID* will change the game ? What's the magic ingredient that's stopping Samsung selling these N900 class HW smartphones for 100$ today ?
Let me translate you the Samsung pitch. Our low end smartphones are not selling. We'll just shoehorn Android on a bare minimum it can run on. Then, using Android's "high-tech appeal" we'll be able to sell more of them as people will believe these devices are higher class than they really are.
N900 announced at 649€ (more than $925) in France, so yes I'll be extremely lucky if we can get it at $700 here.
I'm ready to shell out those $900+ though, the device looks worth it. I wasn't so sure about paying 500€ (would be $715 now, don't know bach then) for the N810 when I bought it, though. (and I didn't, I got it cheaper on eBay, at the expense of the regional keyboard)
Milhouse
2009-08-29, 18:18
No, what I don't understand how *ANDROID* will change the game ? What's the magic ingredient that's stopping Samsung selling these N900 class HW smartphones for 100$ today ?
Let me translate you the Samsung pitch. Our low end smartphones are not selling. We'll just shoehorn Android on a bare minimum it can run on. Then, using Android's "high-tech appeal" we'll be able to sell more of them as people will believe these devices are higher class than they really are.
I don't read that quote as Samsung stating they will be making sub-$100 Android phones rather I believe the Samsung guy is predicting that other manufacturers will come to market with Android phones that cost less than $100 to put together.
As an example of component cost, the OMAP3530 can be had for $22 in quantities of 1,000 - just think what kind of price Nokia are paying for the lower spec 3430. The CPU and screen are going to be by far the most expensive components any phone, everything else (WiFi/BT/GPS/Accelerometer/DRAM/Flash/Battery) will be single digit dollars.
Smartphones are now so highly integrated, particularly with processors such as OMAP and Snapdragon that the bar for entry has been reduced and with an open source OS like Android the bar is only going to go lower. Samsung know this.
Punters in the market for a "smartphone" may well look at the future cheap Android phones and the over priced devices from Nokia/Apple/Palm and ask themselves why they should pay so much more for these "high-end" devices that do much the same job as the "low end" device.
As I say, I don't begrudge Nokia or Apple or anyone else a profit for their labours but when you cost up the components that goes into these devices, which are then sold by the million, it gets a little hard to consider the price they are sold at as anything but "fair".
"Fair" is whatever the market is willing to pay for something.
Does android have support for 160x120 screen, btw? :P
aironeous
2009-08-29, 18:36
Lets keep makiing more threads about the N900!
As an example of component cost, the OMAP3530 can be had for $22 in quantities of 1,000 - just think what kind of price Nokia are paying for the lower spec 3430. The CPU and screen are going to be by far the most expensive components any phone, everything else (WiFi/BT/GPS/Accelerometer/DRAM/Flash/Battery) will be single digit dollars.
As I say, I don't begrudge Nokia or Apple or anyone else a profit for their labours but when you cost up the components that goes into these devices, which are then sold by the million, it gets a little hard to consider the price they are sold at as anything but "fair".
I feel the same about how they (any manufacturer) can justify those asking prices. So I just lay back and let others pay those prices then I come in and buy the product when prices lose some hot air.
Milhouse
2009-08-29, 18:39
"Fair" is whatever the market is willing to pay for something.
If this poll is anything to go by there are a number of people who won't be paying the asking price! :) Obviously when we get the device in our hands that opinion could change...
VulcanRidr
2009-08-29, 18:52
It's a phone. The idea is that part of the price will be subsidized by carriers.
That would be all well and good, except for the fact that the mobile phone makers "hitch" their premium phones to a specific carrier (at least in the US). And conversely, the carriers have but one premium phone:
Verizon - Blackberry Storm
AT&T - iP0wn3d
T-Mobile - N900
What does this mean to us as mobile phone users? We have but a few choices:
Carry two mobile phone plans. In order to get the best price on the devices, a two year plan.
Buy an unlocked phone at full price, thereby negating the benefits of the carrier subsidizing the phone
Cancel one carrier and take up with the carrier that has the phone you desire. This ranges between $175 and $200 early termination fee per line with the old carrier.
Option 1, figure a phone plan with data would be anywhere between $100 and $200/month. So for the sake of argument, let's say the low end of the range. Thats still $1200/year, plus the cost of the N900.
Option 2 would be a flat $700. If you buy one from TMobile, you have to worry that it will be crippled on AT&T's network.
Option 3 is the same as option 1 plus $175/line (in my case 2). The other thing is that you would wind up doing this every 1 or 2 years as the phones change among the carriers.
--vr
So regardless of which way I go, the N900 will cost me something close to $1000 at a minimum. And regardless of how many years you have been with a carrier, you will get charged with this. When I switched over to AT&T from Verizon, I had been a VZN customer for 6 years, but they still tried to charge me for early termination.
This is why the carriers and manufacturers annoy me.
Since technically it is a phone an unsubsidized price of $699 sounds right in line with the iPhone or HTC. However I do think that it is unfortunate that we won't have an option without 3g plan (ala n810 senario). As much as I would love to get back on board with a new Nokia tablet, Ian not going to get onboard with a 2year tmoble contract as I already have a year left with AT&T.
Exactly the same boat I am in. Whats more, for me, is that my blackberry is flaky, so I need to replace it. Of course, if I do, that stretches my contract out to another 2 years. 1 year warranty for phone hardware, 2 year contract.
If this poll is anything to go by there are a number of people who won't be paying the asking price! :) Obviously when we get the device in our hands that opinion could change...
Yes.. that's why a singular 'fair' price doesn't exist. It depends on who, when and why...
I think the price is reasonable. The only thing crazy is buying a phone that costs 600 EUR. ;)
People complaining about +700 USD prices should consider that the dollar is declining (1 EUR = 1.42 USD) and they have to pay more and more.
If something beats the iPhone and is still cheaper, it's a good deal.
GeneralAntilles
2009-08-29, 19:29
As an example of component cost, the OMAP3530 can be had for $22 in quantities of 1,000 - just think what kind of price Nokia are paying for the lower spec 3430.
Er, what? The OMAP3430 is virtually identical to the OMAP3530. Arguably it's actually a higher spec chip since it comes in a smaller package (smaller ball-pitch) and has more features. Basically the only difference between the OMAP35x and the OMAP34x is that OMAP35x is a catalog part.
At least get the facts straight before you damn them outright.
GeneralAntilles
2009-08-29, 19:30
Remember that the other big thing you're paying for is all of those full-time open source developers Nokia finances. . . .
Milhouse
2009-08-29, 19:38
Er, what? The OMAP3430 is virtually identical to the OMAP3530. Arguably it's actually a higher spec chip since it comes in a smaller package (smaller ball-pitch) and has more features. Basically the only difference between the OMAP35x and the OMAP34x is that OMAP35x is a catalog part.
At least get the facts straight before you damn them outright.
Fair enough GA, I thought the 35xx had a higher spec and your comment explains why I could find no pricing details for the 3430! :)
Not to get all political, and this isn't the real me, but this is a phone for the running-dog lackey capitalist imperialist expiring leisure class exploiters, and your days are numbered, pigs!...
Yes but...
Have you seen the bigger piggies
In their starched white shirts
You will find the bigger piggies
Stirring up the dirt
:eek:
It's a phone. The idea is that part of the price will be subsidized by carriers.
That statement is not really true (IMHO), as the subsidies will in the end be paid by the user through both monthly and call charges. So it is better described as a credit given by the carrier, usually with quite bad conditions.
Arnd
jandmdickerson
2009-08-29, 22:25
Remember that the other big thing you're paying for is all of those full-time open source developers Nokia finances. . . .
I think think the top 50 karma members will get a free unit. So you and some others will get an n900, not just a developer discount. :) Let's give it a few weeks so they can get organized.
Poll shows clear picture that many people equals "I can't afford it" to "It costs too much for what it gives!". And yes, all of them are genius market analytics who knows the cost of every detail, every ad company and every thing so they can say how much exactly it should cost and how much Nokia is overlaping the limit.
P.S.: I can't afford it, but you know, I'm looking at the world with my own eyes, 300 bucks for such a candy, pfft.
REMFwhoopitydo
2009-08-30, 11:13
i want one, but i'm not sure if i want one enough to pay that much.
allnameswereout
2009-08-30, 11:51
I think the price is reasonable. The only thing crazy is buying a phone that costs 600 EUR. ;)True but clearly it is much more than a phone. Whether the additional features are worth it is very personal.
For me, it will mean I don't need a DAP anymore (iPod touch). Well that is, if I can sport with Nokia N900.
If something beats the iPhone and is still cheaper, it's a good deal.There is no 1 iPhone. Lets just say they compete very well with each other based on specifications, and wait till device is released.
I'd also kill for some kind of iPhoneOS compatibility layer ;)
andrewfblack
2009-08-31, 12:41
Guess I was off on my price quote from what i understand the price is now 600 Euros which would come out to $860 for the phone here in the US. That now puts it at $160 over the price of an unlocked N97 Nokia's Flagship Phone. BTW I don't think the Maemo Devices will ever become the real Flagship phone it is to much of a niche device to me.
ColdFusion
2009-08-31, 12:48
Guess I was off on my price quote from what i understand the price is now 600 Euros which would come out to $860 for the phone here in the US. That now puts it at $160 over the price of an unlocked N97 Nokia's Flagship Phone. BTW I don't think the Maemo Devices will ever become the real Flagship phone it is to much of a niche device to me.
For an accurate comparison, please compare the price of the n97 in Europe at launch. You'll see that the n900 is even cheaper despite having much much more superior hw and sw.
GeneralAntilles
2009-08-31, 13:08
Guess I was off on my price quote from what i understand the price is now 600 Euros which would come out to $860 for the phone here in the US. That now puts it at $160 over the price of an unlocked N97 Nokia's Flagship Phone. BTW I don't think the Maemo Devices will ever become the real Flagship phone it is to much of a niche device to me.
Straight Euros-to-Dollars conversions are not helpful here. When have you ever seen 1:1 conversion-rate pricing here for anything?
Espoo888
2009-08-31, 13:27
The N900 is cheaper than an iPhone - I think that an unlocked 16GB 3GS is around $799.
The N900 is better than an iPhone - screen res., camera sensor, camera optics, video recording, video playback format support, memory, storage, browser, flash, file management system (it has one!), multi-tasking, etc.
So it should be fairly competitive. By that I mean there are plenty of people out there with enough money to buy an iPhone who will at least consider this. In the US the media bias and operator tie-ins will work against Nokia but in the rest of the world the N900 will sell with multiple operators (subsidised and unsubsidised) in each major country so that they will have a wider distribution base which should help to counter-balance the US situation. Of course, I am sure that T-Mobile will shift a few units but Europe / Mid East / India and China will really dig this device.
iPhone 3GS 16GB $599
iPhone 3GS 32GB $699
I think $700 is the magic number.
umberto_soprano
2009-08-31, 14:07
When have you ever seen 1:1 conversion-rate pricing here for anything?
Unfortunatly we (Europeans) have seen it from many companies, the 1:1 conversion when on the market €1 = $1.4
But from Nokia, as an European company, I would expect a more fair quotation toward their, let's say, EU compatriots
It's just you. We Americans have lots of money even without jobs and with declining real estate values. We are just as enthusiastic about spending as always. There is no economic downturn! (Pay no attention to the repo-man behind the curtain.)lol, funny.
iPhone 3GS 16GB $599
iPhone 3GS 32GB $699
I think $700 is the magic number.
See, I cannot get an unlocked iPhone in Germany for less than EUR 900,- (32GB 3GS).
So all this price speculation is moot when you do not know the price it will be going for in the US.
And I'm sure that it will be once again the europeans who have to bend over.
See, I cannot get an unlocked iPhone in Germany for less than EUR 900,- (32GB 3GS).
So all this price speculation is moot when you do not know the price it will be going for in the US.
And I'm sure that it will be once again the europeans who have to bend over.
900 euros must be from scalping shops, right??
They officially sell for 699 euro in italy, fully unlocked.
(http://store.apple.com/it/browse/home/shop_iphone/family/iphone)
I think such factor as what happens when there's a shortage of supply that cannot meet the demand, which increase the price, thus opening up the 'grey market' like in iphone's case should be separated from price comparisons.
allnameswereout
2009-08-31, 16:06
Hardware keyboard are sometimes replacable.
900 euros must be from scalping shops, right??Seems accurate. http://geizhals.at/deutschland/?fs=apple+iphone&in=
Its because Apple is forced by lawsuit to also sell iPhone unlocked in Germany.
They officially sell for 699 euro in italy, fully unlocked.Yes, it is cheaper in some EU countries than in other.
Seems accurate. http://geizhals.at/deutschland/?fs=apple+iphone&in=
Its because Apple is forced by lawsuit to also sell iPhone unlocked in Germany.
No, it is because Apple *is not* forced to sell it unlocked in Germany. So the german stores import them from Switzerland, France or Italy (where apple was forced to sell them unlocked) and they also want to make their cut.
So I'm more than happy to only pay EUR 599,- (which still is around EUR 100,- cheaper than the iphone from Italy) for a maemo phone.
Sure, I'd be happier if it were cheaper, but my phone *and* my N800 show signs of being worn out.
allnameswereout
2009-08-31, 16:48
No, it is because Apple *is not* forced to sell it unlocked in Germany.http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&langpair=de%7Cen&u=http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,518322,00.html
Btw, its less of a problem with iPhone because it lacks hardware keyboard.
I wish they made the "IPod" version of N900... w/o keyboard and w/o phone... I would totally pay about... max $300 for that! :-)
jandmdickerson
2009-08-31, 17:23
I wish they made the "IPod" version of N900... w/o keyboard and w/o phone... I would totally pay about... max $300 for that! :-)
Isn't this called the n800 version? ;)
Unfortunatly we (Europeans) have seen it from many companies, the 1:1 conversion when on the market €1 = $1.4
But from Nokia, as an European company, I would expect a more fair quotation toward their, let's say, EU compatriots
Sure, that's why they sold the tablets at $399 in the usa and 399€ over here :mad:
Sure, that's why they sold the tablets at $399 in the usa and 399€ over here :mad:
Unfortunately Nokia isn't the only one. Sony Playstation 3, now 300$ in US, 300€ (430$) in Europe. Chepest Macbook Pro, 1200$ in US, 1150€ (1648$) in Europe. Nokia E71, 309$ in US, 369 € (592$) in Europe. (Nokia online shop though, which is really expensive compared to another shops)
The 1 US$ = 1 € is much closer to reality than the actual conversion rate but still when prices are announced in euros someone goes and converts it with the real currency rate and the whole blogosphere goes haywire.
I'll save up BUT...
If my carrier will offer it for under 450eur I'll get it subsidised else I'll buy it direct.
My initial plan was it should be atleast 100eur subsidised especially since I've been with the carrier for over 10 years(7 of those pre-pay). But they are selling the n97 for 450 while I payed 200eur for the n95 so I would really like to see it in a less than 400 eur range subsidised. If not I don't want to be locked in. Good thing I manage to save quite a bi tof money so will probably be able to get it.
The listed price on the Dutch Nokia site is EUR 599,-. This seems like a good price to me...
http://shop.nokia.nl/nokia-nl/product.aspx?sku=6958651&culture=nl-NL&DCMP=BAC-homepageteaser_nokia-nl_reserveer-n900-in-de-shop
Jack6428
2009-09-04, 13:20
In Czech we don't have Euros..but its supposed to cost 16 000 CZK incl. TAX...so, that would be... about $880...from the US point of view it's high... but from my point of view, since i live in Czech... the price is ok, becuase every new high-end Nokia phone that came out always had this price in the beginning... for me its cheaper then it would be for you Americans if you went and bought it here...
EUR 599 would be more or less the same: $854.
I think in the US around $600 would be a fair price because the average hourly salary in the US is about $18.65 and in The Netherlands it is about EUR 18.44 an hour (but we probably pay more income tax). Don't know about other european countries though...
sachin007
2009-09-04, 21:54
The N900 is cheaper than an iPhone - I think that an unlocked 16GB 3GS is around $799.
The N900 is better than an iPhone - screen res., camera sensor, camera optics, video recording, video playback format support, memory, storage, browser, flash, file management system (it has one!), multi-tasking, etc.
So it should be fairly competitive. By that I mean there are plenty of people out there with enough money to buy an iPhone who will at least consider this. In the US the media bias and operator tie-ins will work against Nokia but in the rest of the world the N900 will sell with multiple operators (subsidised and unsubsidised) in each major country so that they will have a wider distribution base which should help to counter-balance the US situation. Of course, I am sure that T-Mobile will shift a few units but Europe / Mid East / India and China will really dig this device.
See this quote from a PCmag article
"The N900 looks promising; unfortunately, Nokia is selling it at a fatal price of $649. That's the price of three iPhone 3GSes, plus tax. If T-Mobile picks it up, they might subsidize it, but even a $250 subsidy brings it down to $400 - more in netbook range than in smartphone range."
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2352501,00.asp
How in the world they allow such people to write reviews. The american media is seriously blinded by the iphone!!
Just saw a video review of the n900
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHa3AoNdglY
Severely disappointed. Device looks very thick compared to n810, the screen is smaller, the keyboard is way smaller, it's going to be absolute hell typing anything on that keyboard. Very disappointed in Nokia.
allnameswereout
2009-09-05, 02:46
@ bousch
Yeah, here some interesting links from (Gathering of) Tweakers.
GoT: Nokia N900 RX-51 Smartphone Internet tablet (http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_messages/1363257)
GoT: Nokia N900 Levertijden en Abonnementen topic (http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_messages/1366164)
T.net Pricewatch Nokia N900 zwart (http://tweakers.net/pricewatch/244767/nokia-n900-zwart.html)
The 2nd and 3rd link have no additional information as of now.
[...] Nokia is selling it at a fatal price of $649. That's the price of three iPhone 3GSes, plus tax. [...]
:eek: ZUM KOTZEN!!! :mad::(
Jack6428
2009-09-05, 11:20
Just saw a video review of the n900
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHa3AoNdglY
Severely disappointed. Device looks very thick compared to n810, the screen is smaller, the keyboard is way smaller, it's going to be absolute hell typing anything on that keyboard. Very disappointed in Nokia.
you see..and with me its the complete opposite... :D
What kind of price drop can we expect after the phone is released? I am toying with an idea of pre-ordering one from Nokia although I have no use for BH-703 (bonus) as I have platronics. If waiting a week or 2 may save me $100 great otherwise.. most likely I need to pre-order it now..
you see..and with me its the complete opposite... :D
+1
I prefer a smaller but thicker N900 since I want to use it as a phone, instead of keeping the dimensions of the N810.
The keyboard looks like it's approximately the size of the N810's, since the D-pad is removed.
Thinner would have been better, but I don't want to lose the HW keyboard.
And after all, I'm currently carrying my N810 in an aluminum case which make it 20mm thick, and it still fits well in my front pockets, so I don't think the thickness will bother me anyway.
How in the world they allow such people to write reviews. The american media is seriously blinded by the iphone!!
For sure ! Next time they'll write :
"hey, that N900 is $649, which I don't understand, because my last phone was free ( my source, so you can see that I'm a serious journalist and I'm not bullcrapping you when I say that phone is insanely expensive : T-mobile free phones (http://www.t-mobile.com/Templates/ListAllPhones.aspx/?priceRange=0-0&WT.z_shop=SeeAll) )"
allnameswereout
2009-09-05, 14:08
What kind of price drop can we expect after the phone is released? I am toying with an idea of pre-ordering one from Nokia although I have no use for BH-703 (bonus) as I have platronics. If waiting a week or 2 may save me $100 great otherwise.. most likely I need to pre-order it now..Why would the price in 2 weeks drop $100? Heck, why would the price drop any time soon. That will happen some time in 2010.
Why would the price in 2 weeks drop $100? Heck, why would the price drop any time soon. That will happen some time in 2010.
I would assume that when Buy.com and Dell or others will pick up N900 we should see prices fluctuating.. if Nokia will keep N900 exclusive to Nokia's website for the next 6 months now this is a different story..
So I guess the question is (having not purchased unlocked device ever), what should I expect from Nokia - keeping it exclusive for 6 months on their website or are we going to see other online retailers selling N900 in Oct?
N900 price announced on the first Norwegian web store. It's actually 22.66 euro cheaper than what they charge for the N97.
After much deliberation, I've finally come to the conclusion that I'll not get a N900. The price, isn't really that bad. I won't even bring up the fact I have an iPhone... that's not even the point. In fact, my iPhone 3G is really bigger reason why I would want to get an N900 - it's about time for me to upgrade to something less... confined.
But with one more possible, lesser (think N97 Mini to the original N97) Fremantle project to be announced/released and then a possible Harmattan project to be released in 2010... I'm going to wait it out.
And that sucks. I'm just not hearing the things I wanted to hear in order for me to buy this as quickly as I did my N810. I was there on day one for that.
Now... all of the talk about prices though, for the Americans the price(s) of the unlocked iPhone 3GS really doesn't hit home like it would in Europe simply because it is not an option here in the US. It is in other places and the prices... ouch. But I do find it odd that the prices are fluctuating as much as I've seen in this thread.
And that... is not Apple's fault; not entirely. That's each country having different rules in the EU it seems. After the MSRP is set, it should be pretty standard. I do not like the dollar/pound/euro being the same though... that's a really stupid thing I've seen only Apple and Sony pull.
Anyway... I'll wait. Who knows... an AT&T version might come out subsidized in the US for a price that will hook me. That's what happened with the iPhone.
Andrewfblack: according to Coinmill.com, 500 GBP is equivalent to US$ 818:
http://coinmill.com/GBP_USD.html#GBP=500
So it's even worse than you thought... :-)
I do not like the dollar/pound/euro being the same though... that's a really stupid thing I've seen only Apple and Sony pull.
Don't companies pay lot more taxes when selling in Europe when compared to selling in the US? How can we expect them not to sell for a higher price in Europe when they are forking a much larger portion of the money to the local government?
ColdFusion
2009-09-07, 10:44
Europe is not a country.
Every government have different taxes and every country is a different market with different pricing.
attila77
2009-09-07, 10:47
Don't companies pay lot more taxes when selling in Europe when compared to selling in the US? How can we expect them not to sell for a higher price in Europe when they are forking a much larger portion of the money to the local government?
Yes, except the dollar price is lower than the European one WITHOUT taxes.
@attila: aren't prices in europe generally higher than in US? (ergo the infrastructure, payscale, and everything else that has to do with distribution costs in europe is higher)
Prices in Europe is generally higher than in the USA. It doesn't really only translate to infrastructure though, if you buy Photoshop from adobe.com, the price will adjust to the local pain limit. In Scandinavia, it's way, way more expensive to download photoshop from the same server. Yet buy something from eBay.com and despite high shipping costs and VAT, it may still be much cheaper.
On the other hand, buy a camera from eBay USA and chances are you'd be better off buying it locally. So it's different for different niches.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&langpair=de%7Cen&u=http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,518322,00.html
Btw, its less of a problem with iPhone because it lacks hardware keyboard.
Preliminary injunction - yes, you can go to T-Mobile and tell them to unlock your iphone, but that's a real hassle. And no, that doesn't mean that Apple has to sell the iphone anywhere else except with T-Mobile.
@attila: aren't prices in europe generally higher than in US? (ergo the infrastructure, payscale, and everything else that has to do with distribution costs in europe is higher)
Yes, but some companies really count on people not checking out prices in other countries (or let us europeans bend over to get it):
Adobe InDesign:
US - US-$ 699,-
DE - EUR 1010,- (incl. VAT), EUR 849,- excl. VAT
EUR 849,- is US-$ 1.214,-
And no, I don't think that life is that much more expensive over here :)
Adobe and a lot of the software companies get away with charging those prices because they say it's due to the multiple languages it has to be translated to.
Apple used to say because of the multiple adapters and/or power supplies.
But honestly... I thought it was just another get more money. That is until I hit up Japan. If you know where to look, and I don't mean grey market... we're getting screwed a bit too in the US on a lot of our electronics.
Regardless... the price for the N900 isn't a concern for me in this iteration. It seems "fair" enough. And the hardware, for what you're paying for... is mighty capable.
I just doubt it will have more than one killer feature that will convince me to buy into it. Especially with the non-committal stance of Harmattan on it (it should go onto it easily since the next few devices are rumored to have OMAP3 cpus in them anyway)...
attila77
2009-09-07, 12:12
@attila: aren't prices in europe generally higher than in US? (ergo the infrastructure, payscale, and everything else that has to do with distribution costs in europe is higher)
Depends on the what industry are you talking about. Consumer electronics and software are areas where the markup is quite significant, and more importantly quite uniform across Europe (compared, to, say food or housing, which is more closely related to average income). To put it another way, for the (local) price of a dozen or so high-end iMacs I can buy a small seaside house (!) on the Adriatic.
hi everyone!
regarding the price differences between the USA and european states:
in europe, all prices _have_ to include the VAT, which spans from 15-20%. In the US there is no such obligation, so usually you will see the untaxed prices in the ads.
so, a device which retails in europe at 600€ means 500€ without taxes, which is about 700USD.
attila77
2009-09-07, 14:03
so, a device which retails in europe at 600€ means 500€ without taxes, which is about 700USD.
Well, we'll have to ask the US folks if the BH703 headset is as bad as to be worth paying extra 65$ NOT to get it :D
Well, we'll have to ask the US folks if the BH703 headset is as bad as to be worth paying extra 65$ NOT to get it :D
+1
here in France, it's 649€, which means (with our 19.6% VAT) 542.64€ + taxes.
That's about $777 right now, so that means I get to pay over $125 more than the US customers, plus the VAT. Just to get my regional keyboard layout printed on the HW keyboard. Doesn't that sound silly ?
I'm starting to consider what I already did for the N810, getting it on eBay from a US seller.
I'm starting to consider what I already did for the N810, getting it on eBay from a US seller.
be careful with that, if you're unlucky and customs open your package (as they occasionally do) you might have to pay even more than the VAT.
be careful with that, if you're unlucky and customs open your package (as they occasionally do) you might have to pay even more than the VAT.
EU has no duty rate for cellular phones (or notebook computers). So it's only the VAT you have to add when purchasing things like these from the US.
GeneralAntilles
2009-09-07, 15:12
Device looks very thick compared to n810, the screen is smaller, the keyboard is way smaller, it's going to be absolute hell typing anything on that keyboard. Very disappointed in Nokia.
. . . and, yet, everyone I know who has actually used both devices says you don't notice the screen size difference and that the keyboard is actually significantly better to type on than the N810's.
EU has no duty rate for cellular phones (or notebook computers). So it's only the VAT you have to add when purchasing things like these from the US.
Yes, but EU customs usually not only add the local VAT, but also a fine for not declaring it properly.
Yes, but EU customs usually not only add the local VAT, but also a fine for not declaring it properly.
That is the sender's problem.
That is the sender's problem.
Are you sure about that?
As far as i know, it's your responsibility (as importer) to declare it with customs. They won't even hand out the package before you pay.
it happened to me once a few years ago :)
sites like thinkgeek.com explicitly point out that they have no idea about customs when shipping overseas, and that it's in your own responsibility.
Well, the shipper is the one that fills in the custom declaration form. Most legitimate business would want to fill in the form honestly, and that way you'll have to pay the full taxed value which most of the time makes the item more expensive than if you buy it locally anyway.
Are you sure about that?
As far as i know, it's your responsibility (as importer) to declare it with customs. They won't even hand out the package before you pay.
If the sender puts "T-Shirt, US-$15" on a package containing an N900 and I have to pay a penalty for that, you can be sure that that will be the sender's problem :p
If the sender puts "T-Shirt, US-$15" on a package containing an N900 and I have to pay a penalty for that, you can be sure that that will be the sender's problem :p
that's not what i meant.
you have to tell your customs office that you will be recieving an imported good, if you didn't do that and they notice the package, you will be fined.
i can provide you with a link if you want to, but it's in german.
I already got several parcels through the customs, and unless it's a big-name carrier (UPS, TNT, DHL...), they don't take an arm and a leg in addition to the VAT. Our USPS partner is not as expensive as the big ones.
I think even if my parcel gets stuck at the customs I'll still have for less than 50€ fees + VAT, so it's still cheaper for me.
The fees are not a fine for not declaring it properly, they are just "documentation fees" (not sure of my translation, that's what they take for paying the guy who processes your parcel)
We'll see if I can handle the shipping time though, that's my biggest gripe about getting stuff from other countries.
PS : French laws here, probably different in other EU countries
allnameswereout
2009-09-07, 16:33
Yes, but EU customs usually not only add the local VAT, but also a fine for not declaring it properly.Since 2008 its allowed to import higher amount without paying duties but since then they also check better (at least in NL). This means there is a 1-2 week delay in delivery, and pay some amount to declare the item (20 EUR or sth). Then they add 20%. Really sucks if your item was second hand. Thank god for the free market!!!!11 :rolleyes:
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