N900 and USA market (T-Mobile)

[Architengi]

Nokia said they want to gain share in USA market, the biggest world market. Even they said they want to be #1 in USA, like they are in the world.
There is tough competition in USA, the latest T-Mobile phone having "Google" logo on the back - a sort of Google phone (running Android), Apple iPhone, RIM Blackberry, Palm Pre, HTC Android and Windows Mobile devices...

Nokia marketing had big problems having the smartphones on USA carriers, and masses are not willing to pay $700 for a smartphone, so if it is not subsidized at $299 it is hard to sell in USA. Carriers are important.

Initially there were rumors N900 will be subsidized on T-Mobile network. N900 has T-Mobile frequencies. Is this gonna be true?

Does Nokia need AT&T and Verizon operators for a future version of N900 (or a Maemo smarthphone)?
Will Nokia support CDMA and not only GSM for Maemo smartphones?

[christexaport]

It WILL be on TMO, most likely at around $249-279, but possibly $199 to compete with Apple. Nokia is already letting people in other countries finance their phones, so they're flexible about getting it in people's hands.

BTW, does Apple need Verizon, Sprint, or TMo to sell iPhones?

Nokia just needs to get the Maemo video on Maemo.Nokia.com on TV, get some "only on TMobile" action going, and send me a gift model for such great advice, which I gave out a year ago. LOL

[quipper8]

Maybe nokia doesn't necessarily want or need to sell this phone to every american it can. From what it looks like, they are launching first in germany and italy and the n900 is not even on the nokia US site.

[christexaport]

Of course not. Nokia World needs the thunder. After Nokia world, it'll be there.

[Nathan]

BTW, does Apple need Verizon, Sprint, or TMo to sell iPhones?


You have to understand AT&T is the second largest provider in the US @ 78 million subscribers. For apple starting out; going with AT&T or Verizon was the best options. Go with one of the two largest vendors.

TMO is only @ 33 million.
Verizon is @ 88 Million
Even Sprint has more US customers than TMO.

If you add several of the CDMA subscribers together you have a 170 million between a handful of providers. Making a single CDMA version of the phone could unlock a huge market in the USA for Nokia. Adding AT&T bands could unlock another 80 million subscribers. So if your Nokia, would you settle for only targeting a maximum potenial of 11% of the market or going for like 100% of the market by just adding two additional versions of the phone. Even if they decided to blow off AT&T (because of the iphone penetration on AT&T) and just add CDMA they would at be targeting 73% of the USA market...

Nathan

[penguinbait]

They just need to play commercials like this all over and the kiddies will me going mad in the streets, heheh :eek::eek::D:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au_uRmoy8Fs

[sachin007]

Sad news?

Just found this on a blog

http://www.nokiamobiletalk.com/2009/09/nokia-n900-evolution-nw09/

And let me correct one last pet peeve of mine. Many tech review sites are calling the N900 by it’s part number (RX-51). Was the iPhone 3G ever mentioned in any review site as “MB504 B”? The Codename of the N900 is Rover, and will likely NOT be carried by T-Mobile USA, although it is likely to be carried by T-Mobile Europe. T-Mobile in the US does not like Nokia N series of devices because of Nokia’s unwillingness to cripple their product, Apple on the other hand…?

[klinglerware]

Sad news?

Just found this on a blog

http://www.nokiamobiletalk.com/2009/09/nokia-n900-evolution-nw09/

And let me correct one last pet peeve of mine. Many tech review sites are calling the N900 by it’s part number (RX-51). Was the iPhone 3G ever mentioned in any review site as “MB504 B”? The Codename of the N900 is Rover, and will likely NOT be carried by T-Mobile USA, although it is likely to be carried by T-Mobile Europe. T-Mobile in the US does not like Nokia N series of devices because of Nokia’s unwillingness to cripple their product, Apple on the other hand…?

Great news (if true), I was hoping for an unlocked device that still supported the T-mobile 3G bands--I'd really like to avoid the T-mo cripple.

When you think about it, this is the model for the N-Series Nokia smartphones that work on AT&T 3G: almost all of them are sold unlocked as well.

[sachin007]

Actually speaking it is good news. But they have to release an unlocked phone with at&t bands also....

[Texrat]

Poll is missing my selection.

Come on, man, just start adding an "Other" at the bottom of the list...

[SD69]

Since the N900 supports the 3G AWS band of T-Mo US (and other reasons), it does not make sense that it would not be sold by T-Mo US.

I am aware that some carriers have required features such as BT and WiFi to be crippled from smartphones, but not T-Mo US. Does anyone know of such an instance, what phone and what feature?

[mrojas]

Remember also that there are many insidious ways of crippling. Maybe features won't get cut, but software updates can be blocked and crapware get installed.... At least this is what carriers do here anyway.

If the N900 doesn't reach the US market with a subsidy, because the carrier wants to cripple it and Nokia don't, then kudos to Nokia and the fault lies in the carrier and the customers that let those abuses happen.

[mullf]

I believe I read recently that the US is racist against phones from other countries. :-X

[quipper8]

they need to put this video on a commercial in US

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsbuZFv0C0Q

People here are so used to just doing whatever the carrier says they can do, they will probably think this is illegal

[mrojas]

I believe I read recently that the US is racist against phones from other countries. :-X

A lot of US bloggers and analysts definitely seem to be like that...

[theflew]

Sad news?

Just found this on a blog

http://www.nokiamobiletalk.com/2009/09/nokia-n900-evolution-nw09/

And let me correct one last pet peeve of mine. Many tech review sites are calling the N900 by it’s part number (RX-51). Was the iPhone 3G ever mentioned in any review site as “MB504 B”? The Codename of the N900 is Rover, and will likely NOT be carried by T-Mobile USA, although it is likely to be carried by T-Mobile Europe. T-Mobile in the US does not like Nokia N series of devices because of Nokia’s unwillingness to cripple their product, Apple on the other hand…?


The problems with statements like this is unless this person works for Nokia or T-Mobile at a high level they don't know. Like the iPhone a deal like this includes exclusive rights to the phone. I don't think Nokia would go thru all this work to support the T-Mobile bands just to exclude the NA market. T-Mobile might see this a way to build market share, especially since they don't have the Pre or iPhone. But I imagine we'll see tomorrow :)

[theflew]

Remember also that there are many insidious ways of crippling. Maybe features won't get cut, but software updates can be blocked and crapware get installed.... At least this is what carriers do here anyway.

If the N900 doesn't reach the US market with a subsidy, because the carrier wants to cripple it and Nokia don't, then kudos to Nokia and the fault lies in the carrier and the customers that let those abuses happen.

We keep talking about crippling, but this phone would be very hard if not impossible to cripple. The best they could do is block traffic for things such as VOIP. Given you have root access you could remove any "crapware" that gets installed.

[SD69]

Remember also that there are many insidious ways of crippling. Maybe features won't get cut, but software updates can be blocked and crapware get installed.... At least this is what carriers do here anyway.

You seem to be painting all US carriers with the same brush. Verizon for example is known to have crippled BT and WiFi. I am not aware that T-MO has done that.

[gerbick]

You seem to be painting all US carriers with the same brush. Verizon for example is known to have crippled BT and WiFi. I am not aware that T-MO has done that.

T-Mobile did limit 3rd party Java apps on some phones... the Nokia 5300 or 6086 if I remember correctly a couple years back.

I can't name of too many incidents though.

[Texrat]

Sometimes "crippling" is passive aggressive. Service providers with the their own networks have been known to throttle bandwidth of competing services for example.

Ah, (the bastardized version of) net neutrality...

[giodelgado]

I don't want Nokia to be popular in the US, it's fine as it is, Unlocked phones are the way to go.

But obviously I want to have my Nokia with ATT 3G, T-Mobile has bad reception in my area.

[Texrat]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/09/01/iphone.wireless.carriers/index.html

;)

[sachin007]

Actually as far as i remember when there was first news about the n900 from mobile crunch i remember quim or someone official who actually laughed at the t.m.o being t-mobile.... so i am still doubtful about t-mobile USA getting this one.

[sarahn]

I could see the n900 being the #2 phone in the market.

The n900 will have exchange integration, right? And it has a bigger keyboard, which might lure people using blackberries to a phone which has the basic things they need from the blackberries but can do nice multimedia stuff too. So I am wondering if it will take market share away from blackberries.

But it really needs to be on ATT.

[ysss]

@sarahn: you need BlackBerry Connect to lure the crackberries off what they're on (me included). The lock-in by Blackberry Messenger is quite strong.

[mobiledivide]

The thing that made me think why T-Mobile 3G bands were used was that perhaps the N900 would be a UMA handset (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlicensed_Mobile_Access). As far as I know ATT does not offer this service. This would be a pretty neat feature for users who have not/cannot set up google voice type call forwarding to use VOIP.

[MountainX]

Any news yet from NW09 about the N900 release date (and carrier) in the USA?

EDIT: and price? Subsidized? Not?

[aironeous]

Why is Nokia making all tablet owners make a sudden change to a new carrier? That seems destructive. Atleast continue to let us bluetooth connect to our Nokia AT&T phones.
I mean you make three tablets which seemlessly connect to Nokias at&t phones leaving the maemo community to pretty much create the devices for you then suddenly you switch carriers? You force the people who made your maemo devices what they are today to enter new contracts? Seems destructive unless we can still bluetooth tether to our Nokia phones.

[gerbick]

I hate to be a jackass... but I find some serious irony in an opensource phone isn't fully supported on all US Carriers.

Well, it just shows the state of affairs in the US carriers really... bleh.

[quipper8]

I hate to be a jackass... but I find some serious irony in an opensource phone isn't fully supported on all US Carriers.

Well, it just shows the state of affairs in the US carriers really... bleh.

well, the software is open source, but the hardware decisions by nokia are what make a phone compatible with certain operators.

[Nathan]

Any news yet from NW09 about the N900 release date (and carrier) in the USA?

EDIT: and price? Subsidized? Not?


I posted this in another thread; but I think most the US people are interested...

http://www.nokiausa.com/find-product...#/main/landing

Is the link to the N900 page.

Notify me button is broken. Chatted with a Rep online, said it was being launched for preorder at end of week. ;-D

Nathan.

[Architengi]

This is the link:
http://www.nokiausa.com/find-products/phones/nokia-n900#/main/landing

OK, but is it gonna be on T-Mobile in USA? No official word yet...

[kin900]

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=320600#post320600
http://www.mobilecityonline.com/wireless/store/productdetail.asp?productid=25125&view=3

ATT freq?!?!

anyone going to pre-order? im so tempted. lol

[texaslabrat]

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=320600#post320600
http://www.mobilecityonline.com/wireless/store/productdetail.asp?productid=25125&view=3

ATT freq?!?!

anyone going to pre-order? im so tempted. lol

Since, AFAIK, there have been no FCC test docs sighted for a N900/RX-51 with AT&T 3g bands...I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. Most likely it's an error caused by cut-n-paste and will be corrected down the road to reflect the tmo 3g bands that the device (as reported via the FCC docs) actually has.

[Architengi]

Nothing announced at Nokia World about any N900 in USA - with T-Mobile?

Again Nokia is out of tracks in USA. If it does not get a carrier, the devices are way to expensive and unaffordable, so they are not popular...

[ysss]

After making some calls to my Nokia distributor contacts, I don't think N900 is set to release in most countries in Australasia either. WTF??

So this is for Europe mainly and limited US release or what?

[texaslabrat]

Nothing announced at Nokia World about any N900 in USA - with T-Mobile?

Again Nokia is out of tracks in USA. If it does not get a carrier, the devices are way to expensive and unaffordable, so they are not popular...

I didn't see any announcements specific to t-mobile in the U.S. carrying the device via subsidy, though being here in the U.S. I might have missed something. However, I don't see how Nokia would include the 1700 band on the device and not have T-mobile in mind. If their plan was to sell them in the U.S. as an unlocked-only option, the AT&T bands would have been a much better choice given the size of the market in terms of overall customers in both the U.S. and Canada using 850/1900.

[sachin007]

Nothing announced at Nokia World about any N900 in USA - with T-Mobile?

Again Nokia is out of tracks in USA. If it does not get a carrier, the devices are way to expensive and unaffordable, so they are not popular...

Nokia is seriously trying to change the landscape of locked phones in the US. That is one of the biggest reasons it is losing market share in the US big time. Nokia should understand that it is a lost cause because the americans really dont care about unlocked phones. I come from India and understand the advantage of locked phones and cheap pre-paid plans. Unfortunately most americans will not understand that because they have been always using locked phones from the beginning. For them it is ridiculous to spend more than 300$ on a phone. Although they do spend more than any unlocked plan + data plan combo compared to a locked phone which is subsidized by the carrier.

I really hope the FCC does something about that..... lets see. I had hope that n900 would come to the t-mobile but doesn't look so.

I guess i have to buy it unlocked.

[christexaport]

even Ray Charles can see this is for TMobile. Only they have a network in the US that uses that frequency. No one else at this time.

[mhammo]

For those that keep debating whether the N900 will or will not be available from T-MO USA, the specs for 3G, from the Nokia web site are this:

Quad-band EGSM 850/900/1800/1900, WCDMA 900/1700/2100

WCDMA is the 3G part and the only carrier at the moment that uses 1700/2100 for 3G is T-MO USA. So there really can't be any other answer than yes, it will be on T-MO USA. The question is WHEN will it be available, not IF it will be available.

Most 3G technologies require 2 bands, 1 for upload and 1 for download. In most EU countries, the band pairing is typically 1900/2100, so again, from the tech specs, the initial release does not appear to be optimized for dual band non-US 3G. In the case of T-MO US, 1700 is the upload band, 2100 is the download band. It is quite possible to have single band 3G, in that case it is most often 2100. So, I assume that at least for the phones that were seen at Nokia World, they were probably using T-Mobile Germany, and the 2100 band for 3G.

Side comment. The 1700/2100 will actually be expanding, soon to be in the "Americas" in general, i.e. Canada, Mexico, Chile, Colombia. I believe that Japan also has this frequency and will begin using it at some point.

One final point on the T-Mobile discussion overall, if you count all of T-Mobile's subscriber base worldwide, they have over 150 Million subscribers, so, not a bad pool of users to focus on for the initial release of the N900. Go T-Mobile!

[ming387]

Agree with mhammo;

Question is not will, but when.

Nokia could have easily gone for the 900/1900/2100 to better suit the Euro/Asia market but made an effort to put int 1700 know to be used by T-Mobile USA.

T-Mobile is not just in the US; it's in many countries in Europe and is much more popular there. In fact it is owned by Deutsche Telekom in Germany for those that are unaware.

Deutsche Telekom (T-Mobile) CEO spoke in the Nokia World right after the 2 big wigs in Nokia. This is proven fact that T-Mobile will be working closely with Nokia to bring out the N900.

T-Mobile have over 100 million world subscribers which is much larger than AT&T can offer.

They're not stupid, the world is not just the US.

[phi]

If Nokia is going the same path as the E71, they will release the N900 unlocked first, and maybe 6 months down the road announce a subsidized one with T-mobile. (The E71 was widely available in the fall of 2008 and didn't come to AT&T until spring of 2009) In the process of that 6 months, I'm sure they're going to use that time to beta-test on those here, who are rushing out to buy the unlocked version, to shake out the bugs before they hand over a less buggy version on the T-mobile branded version of the N900.

I bought one of the unlocked E71 that was truly buggy since it basically melted itself 4 months after owning it.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3401/3657643993_6fffa4b0e4_m.jpg

[lemmyslender]

I was doing some research on payg plans (if I were to get an N900 it would be unlocked and I would like to go with payg).

I ran across a link to this thread on the T-Mobile forums:
http://forums.t-mobile.com/tmbl/board/message?board.id=Prepaid&thread.id=467&view=by_date_ascending&page=1

Wonder if it may be related to the N900 eventually coming to T-Mobile?

[allnameswereout]

If Nokia is going the same path as the E71They won't

they will release the N900 unlocked first, and maybe 6 months down the road announce a subsidized one with T-mobile. (The E71 was widely available in the fall of 2008 and didn't come to AT&T until spring of 2009) In the process of that 6 months, I'm sure they're going to use that time to beta-test on those here, who are rushing out to buy the unlocked version, to shake out the bugs before they hand over a less buggy version on the T-mobile branded version of the N900.

I bought one of the unlocked E71 that was truly buggy since it basically melted itself 4 months after owning it.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3401/3657643993_6fffa4b0e4_m.jpgYou confuse Nokia E71 with Nokia E71x. You don't have a E71. You have a E71x. The E71x is the E71 for North America. It was released far later than the E71. IIRC spring 2009, right before Nokia N97.

My unlocked E71 is almost a year old, is not buggy, and hasn't melted itself either.

Judging from the picture you post seems the camera gone poof.

[danramos]

Sometimes "crippling" is passive aggressive. Service providers with the their own networks have been known to throttle bandwidth of competing services for example.

Ah, (the bastardized version of) net neutrality...

And why wouldn't they do something that is in their own best interest. This IS in their best interest when they're all pretty much doing the same things and leaving you with very little choice, right? :)

[matthewcc]

I think it is brilliant how many people are stating that Nokia should not cripple their devices, and Ill agree to an extent. If you buy your device from Nokia it should not be crippled. BUT if I buy it from T-Mobile, at a subsidized cost, then they have every right to cripple it.

Now, consumers get to be consumers and make their own choices, is a 300$ subsidy enough so that I will not access skype or perform mobile tethering ?

Let the customer choose!!!!!

Now Skype on the network, t-mobile or ATT or verizon etc can very easily block access to the service in general. if it is their prerogative let them do it, those that want access to those services will leave. (and not have to pay cancellation fees in the US because it is a material change in their terms of service.)

The whole point of what I am saying is that Nokia can have their cake and eat it too. Currently Nokia has a minimal stake in one of the largest, wealthiest consumer markets in the world, the US. If they are to be successfully they need to have at minimum a 20% market share in the us and a >33% globally.

They can do this by appealing to consumers and trusting that they will make the choices that best suit them. This will work as long as network carriers continue to allow "unlocked" phones onto their networks. When that changes... well no comment.

Let the customer choose.

[MountainX]

I was doing some research on payg plans (if I were to get an N900 it would be unlocked and I would like to go with payg).

I ran across a link to this thread on the T-Mobile forums:
http://forums.t-mobile.com/tmbl/board/message?board.id=Prepaid&thread.id=467&view=by_date_ascending&page=1

Wonder if it may be related to the N900 eventually coming to T-Mobile?

Thanks for posting that. If I could use an N900 that I purchase directly from Nokia on a T-Mobile prepaid (pay as you go) plan, that would be ideal for me! That would be absolutely the best.

I am going to post a comment at the forum you linked.

[danramos]

Let the customer choose.

...in a market where they can't, right? :)

[romanianusa]

I think it is brilliant how many people are stating that Nokia should not cripple their devices, and Ill agree to an extent. If you buy your device from Nokia it should not be crippled. BUT if I buy it from T-Mobile, at a subsidized cost, then they have every right to cripple it.

Now, consumers get to be consumers and make their own choices, is a 300$ subsidy enough so that I will not access skype or perform mobile tethering ?

Let the customer choose!!!!!

Now Skype on the network, t-mobile or ATT or verizon etc can very easily block access to the service in general. if it is their prerogative let them do it, those that want access to those services will leave. (and not have to pay cancellation fees in the US because it is a material change in their terms of service.)

The whole point of what I am saying is that Nokia can have their cake and eat it too. Currently Nokia has a minimal stake in one of the largest, wealthiest consumer markets in the world, the US. If they are to be successfully they need to have at minimum a 20% market share in the us and a >33% globally.

They can do this by appealing to consumers and trusting that they will make the choices that best suit them. This will work as long as network carriers continue to allow "unlocked" phones onto their networks. When that changes... well no comment.

Let the customer choose.

I heard Comcast is going wireless. If that's the case, doesn't this mean an end to all mobile carriers?? I mean Comcast going wireless mean nobody need voice data service anymore?? They can just use internet call like Skype??FOR FREE?? Comcast is trying to expand the wireless service but it will take years.

[matthewcc]

...in a market where they can't, right? :)

Maybe I misunderstand your statement.

The assumption to the scenario is the a carrier re-sell a branded version phone X. They "cripple" said phone and add a 350$ subsidy. At the same time the phone manufacture sells phone X direct to consumers unsubsidized and "un-crippled"

The consumer now has a choice:
- Buy the phone from the carrier
- Buy the phone from the manufacturer.

There is a trade off $$ vs. functionality.

In the market scenario the consumer gets to choose what to buy. That is what a market is.

Now the iPhone, thats a bit different, that is a monopoly approach - thats a monopoly. if you want the hardware you deal with the consequence. Apple even one up'd that model by making the iphone a content delivery platform where you can only buy content from one location.

Let me say this a different way BMW is offering to sell you a car, so is Exxon-Mobile. In fact both BMW and Ex-M are offering to sell you the same car with a few differences.

The Ex-M car can only run on Ex-m fuel, and has a limiter on it that will not let you go over 85mph, its also 1/3rd the price of the BMW.

Now you can pick the Car that is 1/3rd the cost, but you cannot take advantage of the vehicle to its fullest extent, and you need to run on Ex-M, or you can pick the car that is relativity 3 times the cost, you can run on any fuel, and can go 100mph

You get to pick. Now as we are all on this site, we are the purists who want to drive balls to the wall pushing are cars to see how fast we can go and how quick we can corner. We will pick the unlocked one.

BUT the rest of the world... they don't care as much..

85 is fast enough, they are ok with Ex-M gas and if they never get to corner at 100mph... they can live with that.

Nokia needs to accommodate both user types and can...

Now if they could just figure out a universal radio on these puppies...

[sachin007]

Maybe I misunderstand your statement.

The assumption to the scenario is the a carrier re-sell a branded version phone X. They "cripple" said phone and add a 350$ subsidy. At the same time the phone manufacture sells phone X direct to consumers unsubsidized and "un-crippled"

The consumer now has a choice:
- Buy the phone from the carrier
- Buy the phone from the manufacturer.

There is a trade off $$ vs. functionality.

In the market scenario the consumer gets to choose what to buy. That is what a market is.

Now the iPhone, thats a bit different, that is a monopoly approach - thats a monopoly. if you want the hardware you deal with the consequence. Apple even one up'd that model by making the iphone a content delivery platform where you can only buy content from one location.

Let me say this a different way BMW is offering to sell you a car, so is Exxon-Mobile. In fact both BMW and Ex-M are offering to sell you the same car with a few differences.

The Ex-M car can only run on Ex-m fuel, and has a limiter on it that will not let you go over 85mph, its also 1/3rd the price of the BMW.

Now you can pick the Car that is 1/3rd the cost, but you cannot take advantage of the vehicle to its fullest extent, and you need to run on Ex-M, or you can pick the car that is relativity 3 times the cost, you can run on any fuel, and can go 100mph

You get to pick. Now as we are all on this site, we are the purists who want to drive balls to the wall pushing are cars to see how fast we can go and how quick we can corner. We will pick the unlocked one.

BUT the rest of the world... they don't care as much..

85 is fast enough, they are ok with Ex-M gas and if they never get to corner at 100mph... they can live with that.

Nokia needs to accommodate both user types and can...

Now if they could just figure out a universal radio on these puppies...

Nokia is one of biggest mobile producer in the world.... so i assume they know the differences. The only reason they may not have agreed to the carriers in the US is that they don't want their higher end devices crippled. If the 5800 was subsidised in the US i bet it would sell more than the iphone because it is way cheaper. Same goes with n95-8gb, hell even the n97 would have sold a lot.... but i think nokia is really pushing for a free market even at the expense of losing market share.

[matthewcc]

i think nokia is really pushing for a free market even at the expense of losing market share.

As much as I appreciate that sentiment, but Nokia is a publicly traded company and in they are compelled to maximize profit. I don't know if loosing market share is an option. over the past two years nokia has lost more than half its value and relative to the market is under performing. The NEED a big win, or series of wins. If this means letting the mass market buy a castrated version of their phone, let them have it.

Phones are becoming more more application platforms. The ovi store (like the iTunes/app store) is a content delivery system that 'guarantees' that the content has been certified and will work successfully on the device. It also creates an easy to use marketplace for content providers to sell their content. for this service, ovi takes a cut. (Just like e-bay).

With this in mind, nokia would be well off to get thier phones into the hands of the dull masses just to build enough of a market for developers to be willing to create content for.

Nobility is dead. The dollar (or in this case, the euro) rules.

[kenny]

Nokia said they want to gain share in USA market, the biggest world market.


At the present, the most cellphone use:
1-Asia ,2- India, 3- Europe, 4- North America

[sachin007]

At the present, the most cellphone use:
1-Asia ,2- India, 3- Europe, 4- North America

Do you mean china? because india is in asia.

[ysss]

Nokia is one of biggest mobile producer in the world.... so i assume they know the differences. The only reason they may not have agreed to the carriers in the US is that they don't want their higher end devices crippled. If the 5800 was subsidised in the US i bet it would sell more than the iphone because it is way cheaper. Same goes with n95-8gb, hell even the n97 would have sold a lot.... but i think nokia is really pushing for a free market even at the expense of losing market share.

This is one dimensional thinking. It takes more than just lower price to make a product as appealing as Apple (or RIM's offering). A plain 'ol smartphone doesn't take what it takes to conquer the market, imho.

RIM has all the real-time enterprise messaging angle covered. They do their lock-ins one enterprise at a time.

And on the iPhone?
- iPod (yes, the media player on the iphone is called the ipod and gives 100% functionality of an ipod).
- AppStore
- iTunes (+Store) integration
- There's the brand thing
- Good design and functionality that appeals to the masses.

[mykenyc]

Do you mean china? because india is in asia.

you're on point my friend.

[sachin007]

This is one dimensional thinking. It takes more than just lower price to make a product as appealing as Apple (or RIM's offering). A plain 'ol smartphone doesn't take what it takes to conquer the market, imho.

RIM has all the real-time enterprise messaging angle covered. They do their lock-ins one enterprise at a time.

And on the iPhone?
- iPod (yes, the media player on the iphone is called the ipod and gives 100% functionality of an ipod).
- AppStore
- iTunes (+Store) integration
- There's the brand thing
- Good design and functionality that appeals to the masses.

I agree that only the price doesnt sell a phone but infact it is a combination of many factors. I came to the US in 2006. I had a nokia 7710. At that time the US cell phones were very basic phones. I imagined that US being a very well developed country would have the state of the art mobiles. But boy was i wrong. The mobile phones offered in India were way advanced compared to the US at that time... thanks to nokia. Everyone in the US had the razr at that time and there was really no concept of smart phones in the general public. 90% of the users did not know that they could use the internet on thier mobile!

According to me the following are the success factors for the iphone in descending order:

1. Responsive touch screen.
2. Mobile internet - If the iphone did not force a data plan many of the americans would still not know that they could use the internet on the phone.
3. Apple - cool factor.
4. User interface.

At that time there was no app store so the app store did not really help in the iphone being popular initially.

Now if nokia would have released a nokia 5800 without the data plan at the same time for free with a 2 year contract... i think it would have been a bigger hit because it had all the features the iphone had and more but less intiutive and a cheaper look. Many would have brought it considering that it was free and did not need a data plan...

Since nokia never did that we really cannot know what would have happened. But if you see the success of the 5800 without being subsidised ..... you can only imagine how many units it would have sold.

[ysss]

@sachin: oh, you're talking about the original iphone. Yes, I agree more with your points then. The original iphone was crap compared to what they've become now, with the AppStore and the coming 3rd party extensions\accessories.

[sachin007]

Actually i personally think if nokia released the 5800 free with a 2 year contract without data plan along with the iphone 3g... i am sure that the 5800 would have sold more phones. Now since nokia never did that we can never know....

The biggest advantage apple had with the appstore was that they had to support only one model and they started from scratch. Since it came late to the scene it had the advantage to choose the best way to the market. I also do agree that they innovated by implementing multi touch and thier biggest advantage was marketing.
Wheras nokia had to take a significant time to get the app store working because of the great diversity of the products. Even symbian has thousands of applications. Just that they did not have an appstore.

[ysss]

@sachin: i don't think that was nokia's decision to make. I believe carriers can choose their level of subsidies based on their valuation of the product's market appeal and sales expectation.

Yeah, AppStore was something else. Apple could make that move largely because of (their experience and invested infrastructure on) the iTunes Store.

[sachin007]

@sachin: i don't think that was nokia's decision to make. I believe carriers can choose their level of subsidies based on their valuation of the product's market appeal and sales expectation.

Yeah, AppStore was something else. Apple could make that move largely because of (their experience and invested infrastructure on) the iTunes Store.

I agree that it depends on the carrier's decision.... but do you seriously think nokia does not have the clout to influence a carrier? Even if nokia did not have the clout do you think they could not modify the phone to the carrier's requests if they really cared about america?

The bottom line is nokia has the guts..... they are really trying to change the ridiculous lock ins by the North American market. They dont reallly care about the Americas any more because the developing countries like India is totally covered by nokia. And the system there is very nice with carrier lockins. Even in India there has never been a system of carrier lockin. The apple iphone is the first phone to start that trend in India. But Nokia has India and the rest of Asia firmly in its hand.

[ysss]

Handset producers and carriers are partners. They lobby and negotiate for each business dealings, and that's how Apple got their piece of the pie which most people don't think they deserve (a consumer product without any experience or known expertise in the cellular business). It was Steve Jobs' doing. He's a nutty snake oil salesman and a brilliant negotiator. He could bluff you to fold your pair of aces with his 7-2s (or whatever the worst hand in a holdem game is).

I don't know about Nokia's strategy in the US market, but so far it hasn't impressed anyone, even themselves. Please don't forget that these companies are businesses.. like living things needing to eat to sustain themselves, they focus on making money before any other things to sustain themselves...

[sachin007]

I agree nokia or for that matter any company is in the game for making money for the share holders. I also believe there is a right way of doing things. I personally think i can relate with nokia. Nokia is always modest with its products. They try to bring innovation by the user. They do not believe in clamping their products even though they may lose market share. I think these qualities are inherent in the Finn's. I am not saying that is the right way or the other way is wrong.... but i can relate to nokia, because even i am similar. Some of the good things i believe nokia is doing are:

1. Thier foray into open source and contributions upstream
2. They brought symbian and made it open source
3. They always include any damn feature they can include and never clamp down thier devices.
4. They do not charge for firmware updates.
5. They try to wrangle control from the carriers and give it to the users.


All these things they never had to do and they still do. Combining a phone with a service provider will definitely have increased thier share in the US by a great deal. There is no doubt about it. But they chose not to...Now i dont know why they did not choose to combine with the carriers but since it is a no brainer i think they want to prove something to the North American market. I may be wrong but i do not see any other reason for what they are doing in the NA market so i assume what i believe. If you have a better reason i will be glad to listen.

[matthewcc]

I understand what you are saying. I get frustrated when superior technology is laid to the side by what amounts to generally poor marketing resulting lack of informed consumers in the us market. This creates a cascade of issues because it effects the entire ecosystem products and services customized to users in the US.

I believe that Nokia knows a thing or two about building an ecosystem around a platform as well as how to build and influence markets. I just wish they would apply this to the US market so that when I buy this phone, its use to me, wont be crippled due to an underdeveloped demand of US centric products and services.

[tissot]

I just say the same as others. It's all about the carriers.

I remember reading from quarter report that Nokia sold over 400k N95(all variants) in NA. So i guess N900 could have it's space to move in NA market, but no doubt N900 isn't yet enough. Symbian is special that it controlled European and Asian market, but was left out in NA when it still was in many ways better than it's competition, but now can't see Symbian coming back to NA other than form of Symbian^4.

So Maemo it is. As/if maemo comes the Nokias high end OS and it gets as much as attention as Symbian from Nokia and start churning different phones out in a same rate while these phones are advertised, hyped and subsidies, why not?

[ysss]

@sachin: Hmm, I don't know about the factual background of those claims.. but if they can give such idealistic impression to customers like you, then I really applaud their marketing and PR department.

I just want to comment on #4, I don't know of any company that dares to charge for Firmware Updates (bugfixes). But OS\Firmware upgrades are usually charged or not offered at all (they're tied to certain models, or have technical restriction to avoid backward compatibility issues).

[kenny]

Do you mean china? because india is in asia.
Sure, it's China......I imagine they throw in the rest of Asia too (excluding India since it can garner the number two slot all on it's own.)
I've seen these stats a few times somewhere.

[christexaport]

I don't doubt the N95 sales figures, especially considering all of the American N95 users on my site claiming to prefer TMo. And TMo can tell what devices or on its network, and released that N95 figure back then to show it was a haven for unlocked device users because of price and fair practices. Plus, in the infancy of the Nseries, TMo subsidized the unlocked Euro N90 at select retailers, and today, TMo has a "Premium Collection" of devices they subsidize if bought at Best Buy, mostly Nseries and Eseries models.

They have history with the unlocked device market here.

[regulate23]

I tried a search, but don't know if this has been posted yet. PhoneArena is quoting an anonymous tipster stating the N900 will be coming to T-Mobile by next year...

http://www.phonearena.com/htmls/Big-announcement-coming-soon-from-T-Mobile--Project-Black-to-shake-things-up-article-a_7349.html

[Laughing Man]

Interesting, now the question is..

Will TMobile do anything to do the n900 (lock in, branding [ugh])

And will I be buying it this year or next (depending on cost and how soon I need something to fill the gap I need [see other thread about office tool])

[christexaport]

That's actually a leak from BGR, not PhoneArena, I believe, and I have a feeling its true...

[MountainX]

I tried a search, but don't know if this has been posted yet. PhoneArena is quoting an anonymous tipster stating the N900 will be coming to T-Mobile by next year...



http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=32554

[Angus188]

It WILL be on TMO, most likely at around $249-279, but possibly $199 to compete with Apple. Nokia is already letting people in other countries finance their phones, so they're flexible about getting it in people's hands.

BTW, does Apple need Verizon, Sprint, or TMo to sell iPhones?

Nokia just needs to get the Maemo video on Maemo.Nokia.com on TV, get some "only on TMobile" action going, and send me a gift model for such great advice, which I gave out a year ago. LOL
Have you seen anything more about T-M N900 introduction?

[egoshin]

Q: Can Nokia be #1 in USA market with Maemo smartphones?

A: Yes, if they enable video in phone application... at least via 3G and WiFi.

[Crashdamage]

Have you seen anything more about T-M N900 introduction?
This is probably not going to happen. The chances are very slim, if any at all. You'll save money over the long term if you buy a N900 outright anyway.

[Crashdamage]

Q: Can Nokia be #1 in USA market with Maemo smartphones?

A: Yes, if they enable video in phone application... at least via 3G and WiFi.
Video calling will come, that's what the front camera and tight VOIP integration is there for. It's only a matter of how soon.

But I doubt there's enough demand for it to push Nokia to #1 in the US. That was a joke, right?

[Foodie N900]

Nokia said they want to gain share in USA market, the biggest world market. Even they said they want to be #1 in USA, like they are in the world.
There is tough competition in USA, the latest T-Mobile phone having "Google" logo on the back - a sort of Google phone (running Android), Apple iPhone, RIM Blackberry, Palm Pre, HTC Android and Windows Mobile devices...

Nokia marketing had big problems having the smartphones on USA carriers, and masses are not willing to pay $700 for a smartphone, so if it is not subsidized at $299 it is hard to sell in USA. Carriers are important.

Initially there were rumors N900 will be subsidized on T-Mobile network. N900 has T-Mobile frequencies. Is this gonna be true?

Does Nokia need AT&T and Verizon operators for a future version of N900 (or a Maemo smarthphone)?
Will Nokia support CDMA and not only GSM for Maemo smartphones?

Regardless of what Nokia wants in the US Market, It cannot be #1 unless it fixes some of the outstanding issues with its Mobile PC.
1. Corporate Push email
2. Phone, phone log etc
These two apps need major upgrades. I personally think that N900 is a great gadget. I use corporate email and it has major room for improvement. Phone app is ok. I know its a Internet Tablet but, only with improvement of the above mentioned apps, Nokia will be #1 and I bet it will.

[egoshin]

But I doubt there's enough demand for it to push Nokia to #1 in the US. That was a joke, right?

No, I am serious. A lot of teenagers target now Nexus One but it can change if N900 has video. Moms likes it too... just to see how looks their daughter.

But you just can look how people use a Skype - Fry's Electronics full of different web-cameras and top model costs around $100. BTW, it is a fundamentally new feature.

O-oh, yet another one - video MMS/email! Today mail/fmms can send it, but size - 0.5MB/sec! Some compression functions should be embedded in both applications for video from back of N900 (I believe video from face hasn't that problem).

[vietn900]

buy unlock don't buy subsidized :D ... im with TMO USA right now ... go w/ their evenmore plus plan .. no contract required and cheaper ... reason why it's cheap is because they don't give you a phone ...

[christexaport]

I think Nokia would need to provide all support for a TMo subsidy. Negotiatiations are ongoing, but why not give TMo a lower rate to sell unlocked in store? Without carrier help, nothing sells in the US.

[abhisheiktripathi2007]

Hey everyone
I live in India and one of my friend is currently in New York. I wanted to purchase a N900 and that too real fast as my friend will return to India in a day or two.
I just wanted to know whether my friend can purchase the phone instantly from the NY flagship store or they would take some time. In other words will my friend be able to just walk in the flagship store and come out with a N900 in his hand? If not then what is the probable waiting period at flagship stores.

Kindly help me out folks

[klinglerware]

There are no hassles to buying an unlocked phone in the US, other than availability.

If it is in stock then yes, your friend can just buy the phone. If not, there are several electronics stores in the city, like J&R for example, where you might be able to find the N900 in stock.

Your friend should call ahead to the stores in question, to see if they are in stock before going to the store.

[geneven]

T-Mobile Ripoff

I decided to add this message into an existing thread, but you get the pleasure of reading my headline anyway!

There is a factor that I didn't notice when considering the price of T-Mobile service -- the $35 "initialization fee". So, just because you own your own phone you thought you were free to switch from one plan or service to another, possibly no plan? Well, some of those steps will incur an extra $35 fee. For example, I just intended to sign up for the Internet Only plan, unlimited. The sales person I was talking to on the phone never mentioned the $35 initialization fee during the previous conversation, nor did the other Tmobile employee I talked to earlier in the morning. I repeatedly mentioned to them, "so, if I don't like the service after one month, there is no reason I shouldn't just say goodby and stop the service! And they agreed. So when I got to the end-part of this conversation, AFTER I GAVE THE CREDIT CARD INFO, the guy said, "ok, before we finish this there's some legal stuff that we have to go through, ok?" "Sure!" I said. I thought it was a done deal. Then he listed a bunch of dull stuff and tossed in something like, "and you understand there's a $35 initialization fee" in the midst of other stuff. Then he stopped and said, "Do you understand and agree to these conditions?" I paused for a second and said "NO!" Then I asked him why he or the other Nokia employee had not mentioned this fee before. I pointed out to him that if I decided to just use the Internet Only service for one month, the next time I went to use it the $35 initialization fee would be tacked on again, and he agreed.

Extra $35 charges have to be significant considerations for some people and the usage patterns they were imagining. I am going to have to rethink my entire plans. Maybe I should just revert to only using my tablet on my home wireless, at no extra cost.

[waleed786]

initial activation charges are nothing new, all service providers have them. im just surprised its 35..expected it to be somewhere around 10

[yukoncornelius]

Thanks for the info geneven, I'm contemplating jumping to tmobile from att. $60 vs $90 a month

[geneven]

I'll probably end up going with Tmobile too, but not now. Maybe in July when my forced Sprint to the finish line is over.

[colnago]

initial activation charges are nothing new, all service providers have them. im just surprised its 35..expected it to be somewhere around 10

I paid ~$30 just to get a "new number" on my existing Verizon account. I believe initialization costs are closer to $50 for new accounts.

I paid ~$30 to "port my AT&T cellular number" to T-Mobile.

It costs ~$30 to "port my existing Vonage number" to another VoIP provider's service.

$35 is about the going rate for provisioning a phone number...in the US anyway.

[geneven]

I didn't care what phone number I had, so what colnago is saying seems to have nothing to do with my experience.

[colnago]

I didn't care what phone number I had, so what colnago is saying seems to have nothing to do with my experience.

"Initialization fees" are basically "provisioning costs"...$35 is roughly the going rate to reserve a circuit. It has "much" to do with your experience, as far as establishing an account/service. Sometimes the fees are waived if accounts are opened "online" or during some promotion.

The fact that you're salty because they kept that fact from you in the beginning is a different story. However I was mainly responding to waleed786's post.

[Fargus]

And people call the UK a rip off? Wow - those are some serious additional charges you guys have to pay! Porting your number from one provider to another in the UK is free and cannot be refused by law - finally our bunch of politicians did something right - well first time for everything!

[geneven]

Interesting, thanks for the clarification. I could swear that people buy prepaid Tracphones without paying $35 initialization fees. Does Tracphone have some kind of magic that allows them to do this tricky reservation of circuits for nothing? In fact, come to think of it, I currently have a Tmobile sim for a prepaid phone! I don't think it cost me a $35 initialization fee. How did my circuit get reserved?

Edit: Confirmed. You can buy a tracphone for $19.99, including 20 minutes of talk time to start with. How much does tracphone pay to initialize and reserve the circuit?

[colnago]

Interesting, thanks for the clarification. I could swear that people buy prepaid Tracphones without paying $35 initialization fees. Does Tracphone have some kind of magic that allows them to do this tricky reservation of circuits for nothing? In fact, come to think of it, I currently have a Tmobile sim for a prepaid phone! I don't think it cost me a $35 initialization fee. How did my circuit get reserved?

Edit: Confirmed. You can buy a tracphone for $19.99, including 20 minutes of talk time to start with. How much does tracphone pay to initialize and reserve the circuit?

Well "pay as you go" is different than entering into a "monthly service". The thing is however, with some "pay as you go" services, the 30-day clock starts ticking when you purchase the card/phone (AT&T), not just when you start "using" the service. They get you one way or the other.

[colnago]

And people call the UK a rip off? Wow - those are some serious additional charges you guys have to pay! Porting your number from one provider to another in the UK is free and cannot be refused by law - finally our bunch of politicians did something right - well first time for everything!

Actually, I take back the statement about the fee for porting my AT&T number to T-Mobile...I believe it was free (just did it, but was tired from shovelling so I don't remember all the details). I believe there was a fee if I was to port my Vonage number to GVoice though. I will have to pay an early termination fee to cancel that AT&T service however. :rolleyes: Paying $149 to have (2) Droids on Verizon for "2 weeks" was a bit pricey as well...had to fight with them to remove an additional $179 "early cancellation fee". Needless to say I was peeved when I got a $300+ "first bill".

[geneven]

Well "pay as you go" is different than entering into a "monthly service". The thing is however, with some "pay as you go" services, the 30-day clock starts ticking when you purchase the card/phone (AT&T), not just when you start "using" the service. They get you one way or the other.

They don't get you one way or the other. The Tmobil service I have right now charges me $1 plus a fee per minute for every day I use the phone -- and nothing when I don't use the phone. I've had $32 in the account for the last week, for example, because I haven't made anTy calls and therefore owe nothing.

To me, this establishes that the initialization fees are not even standard at Tmobile, let alone industry-wide. And I haven't heard a real explanation of why it costs to initialize a monthly fee and costs some different amount or nothing for a pay as you go. I suspect it means that Tmobile has been able to get away with charging a lot to one group of customers, but competition has prevented them from doing the same with another group of customers.

In other words, if Tmobile starting telling customers they owed an initialization fee for their prepaid phones, there would be a rush of customers out the door.

[colnago]

Originally Posted by waleed786
initial activation charges are nothing new, all service providers have them. im just surprised its 35..expected it to be somewhere around 10

Originally Posted by colnago
I paid ~$30 just to get a "new number" on my existing Verizon account. I believe initialization costs are closer to $50 for new accounts.

I paid ~$30 to "port my AT&T cellular number" to T-Mobile.

It costs ~$30 to "port my existing Vonage number" to another VoIP provider's service.

$35 is about the going rate for provisioning a phone number...in the US anyway.

Well "again", I was not responding to you geneven, and your post above waleed's did not mention "pay as you go" accounts, which obviously differ from "long term service" accounts.

[davetech]

For you N900 Tmo USA subscribers, and particularly those on non-smartphone plans ($10 unlimited, $6 tzones, etc), do you guys ever tether for your PC (I'm on $10 unlimited), and if so, how much bandwidth per month and how long have you been doing so? I'm thinking about ditching my cable internet and just tethering with the phone since I don't use much bandwidth and rarely ever do any online gaming. The majority of bandwidth activity goes into catching old/missed episodes/hulu/youtube which can take up to about 5-8 GBs per month. I'm curious if Tmo will throttle my bandwidth or charge me extra without warning.

[texaslabrat]

For you N900 Tmo USA subscribers, and particularly those on non-smartphone plans ($10 unlimited, $6 tzones, etc), do you guys ever tether for your PC (I'm on $10 unlimited), and if so, how much bandwidth per month and how long have you been doing so? I'm thinking about ditching my cable internet and just tethering with the phone since I don't use much bandwidth and rarely ever do any online gaming. The majority of bandwidth activity goes into catching old/missed episodes/hulu/youtube which can take up to about 5-8 GBs per month. I'm curious if Tmo will throttle my bandwidth or charge me extra without warning.

I'm on unlimited family plan (non-smartphone). I occassionally tether my N800 to my N900 and watch my streaming HAVA at work (been doing it for about 3 months now I guess). I've done more than 3GB in a month with no issues. From what I understand, T-mobile doesn't throttle you until you cross 10GB for a month..but I have no documentation with which to back that up.

[davetech]

Thanks for the input. What do you base the 10GB threshold on?

[texaslabrat]

just based on anecdotal musings from various folks talking on forums for my part..though I'm sure it's buried in some service agreement mumbo jumbo somewhere or perhaps in an internal memo that they use to enforce "excessive usage" clauses.

For instance:
http://forums.t-mobile.com/t5/T-Mobile-G1/Throttled-after-10-GB/m-p/119146;jsessionid=64D11E6733CFB457911DAB27EDE22CAE

[danx]

i just updated my phone with the lates firmware. i am trying to get to the apn so i can get my 10 dollars a month plan.. is it in my settins? i tried to go to my internet connections but it does not give me the option to put the apn. can someone tell me where i go ? i seemed to forgot.

[danx]

yes i did that already so when i hit edit it tells me name of connnection and user name and password? i also tried new connection and it only gives me the wifi option? any other ideas?

[danx]

can anyone tell me where i can find the apn field so i can get the 10 dollar internet. i went to settings , internet connections , i chose tmobile internet, edit then it tells me it needs a password? or how can i find out what i am using right now ? help please

[uber]

try epc.t-mobile.com for the apn. Leave username and password fields blank.

[danx]

no luck . i go to edit then it tells me the name of the connection ,user name (skip) password (skip) i then press next then it tell me if i want advance setting which they want proxy an IP info. those evryone get this or is this from the new update? help anyone please!

[Discoveryellow]

Ok here are screenshots from my N900 working T-Mobile settings:
http://img.ly/bh8g
http://img.ly/bh8h
http://img.ly/bh8j
http://img.ly/bh8n

Let me know if this worked for you! (You can click "thanks" or post a response that it works.)