View Full Version : Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
Hi there,
I've been lurking the site since n900 was announced but this is my first post, yay!
And here's the question: is it known whether the harmattan release will be officially supported on the n900?
Haven't found anything on it after searching for a while, and it would be a nice thing to know.
See ya!
attila77
2009-09-06, 15:16
No official word on that yet. Note that we don't know what Harmattan will bring hardware-wise, which might very well influence that decision.
Pending some major hardare changes which bring some incompatibilities (like the switch to OMAP3 in Fremantle from Diable based hardware), the mlve to QT softwarewise should not be an issue in Harmattan running on N900.
But this is just an unofficial community take on Harmattan move.
Thanks for your answers.
I think someone from Nokia should state their position on this before the device is released. I know they are going to talk about Harmattan at Maemo Summit, but that's too late.
it will all depend on how long it will take before the switchover happens, and how much nokia feels the pressure to get new hardware sales going.
the more nokia feels the need to do some major hardware bump before we hear anything about harmattan (remember, N900/fremantle is not yet out there for people to use, so its at least a year away) the likelier it will be that there will be no harmattan for N900.
sachin007
2009-09-06, 16:20
This question was asked in the interview with Dr. Ari Jaaksi and he said they really dont know!
jalladin
2009-09-06, 16:30
what is harmattan bring to the table that maemo 5 doesnt already do...
i really just thought the aim for that was more towards the older tablets since the hardware was dated in comparison to the n900
Jack6428
2009-09-06, 16:42
well, the N900 starts selling here where i live around the 15th October..Summit is 11th? So i will know in time... but in the worst case that Maemo 6 wont be for the N900...does it matter that much? I mean, what could possibly Maemo 6 add/have that 5 doesn't?
I think the updates for the N900 will enhance the experience alot..
The main difference with Maemo 6 will be that it uses QT (instead of GTK+) by default. I would guess that wouldn't require new hardware (although I'm sure new hardware will appear at the same time), but who knows.
sachin007
2009-09-06, 16:47
I think maemo 6 will be a more main stream version with carrier subsidies and other lock ins. Of course all the features will be updated without any major bugs wheras now we will have a significant number of bugs.
I would say the n900 will have more value than maemo 6 just for geeks.
Isn't the release date supposed to be around October 1st?
Anyway, yes, I know Fremantle is already a very powerful platform, but it is still not perfect (missing proper portrait mode support, some important parts are still closed source, ...). And even Nokia has stated that it is just an intermediate step towards something bigger, so I'm guessing there are a lot more nice things on the way. If this is coming out in, say, six months, I wouldn't like support on the phone being dropped so soon.
The main difference with Maemo 6 will be that it uses QT (instead of GTK+) by default. I would guess that wouldn't require new hardware (although I'm sure new hardware will appear at the same time), but who knows.
it should not, but in the mean time cortex-9 may be shipping in some form or other, and nokia may want to launch products based on it. And i am not sure how compatible cortex-9 will be with cortex-8.
basically, harmattan may not need any hardware bump, but nokia always wants to ship new hardware to keep the money flowing, they are in the business of selling things, after all...
attila77
2009-09-06, 17:05
Don't forget there might very well be Intel based linux devices from Nokia in the future. If this bloodline includes Maemo 6 devices (which is a missing part of the puzzle), current Fremantle class HW might be sentenced to Mer, too.
Big obstacle in Maemo 6 on N900 may be supposed openess of the former.
According to various sources Maemo 6 may have completely open GSM stack and probably camera stuff. We don't know how open source code may work on closed hardware parts of N900.
Jack6428
2009-09-06, 17:36
this situation for me is a bit...stressful...i need a new phone...and i want the N900 coz it has everything i want, but on the other hand i hear about Maemo 6 coming in a year and probably not working on the N900...so i have no idea wheter to buy a crap phone (like some S40 device) and live with it a year+ to wait for Maemo 6 or grab now the N900 with Maemo 5...i just don't want the N900 to end up being something like a N96 (no big success)...and when i buy a new phone, i always buy it so that it will last 3 years...gee..so far to me it looks Maemo 6 will have a new UI, better apps and community support... but hey, if i buy the N900 (which is one of the best phones, if not the best, out there), i won't make a mistake, right? i know that we will know everything at the summit in one month..but im just upset about it a bit lol
sachin007
2009-09-06, 17:47
First of all the n900 is not a 'crap' phone. One year is a lot in regards to technology and even that is not sure. It took almost 3 years for a hardware upgrade from n800 to n900. I hear that omap 3 is pretty advanced and the next generation is only an incremental update.
If i were you i would definitely buy the n900 especially since members in this forum have been waiting for ever for a hardware upgrade!
Sorry my bad i did not read the comment well enough.
@Jack6428
From various posts on Qt related forums looks like Maemo 6 interface should be very similar to current. Just engine behind it will be different. On the beginning apps also will be coming slowly and community support will be also better for Maemo 5. 3 years maybe no, you should get solid 2 years from N900.
And maybe Maemo 6 will be working on it.
Don't forget there might very well be Intel based linux devices from Nokia in the future. If this bloodline includes Maemo 6 devices (which is a missing part of the puzzle), current Fremantle class HW might be sentenced to Mer, too.
Although I'm not really seeing intel CPUs on the direct roadmap, which could be used in phones (even Atom uses much too much energy).
So that might be even a step further (or I oversaw some mobile processor announcements from Intel).
I know they are going to talk about Harmattan at Maemo Summit, but that's too late.
Too late for what?
i hear about Maemo 6 coming in a year and probably not working on the N900...
Hang on, I don't think the situation is that Maemo 6 probably won't work on the N900. At this point we're just guessing, and there's a good chance that it might work.
attila77
2009-09-06, 20:23
Although I'm not really seeing intel CPUs on the direct roadmap, which could be used in phones (even Atom uses much too much energy).
So that might be even a step further (or I oversaw some mobile processor announcements from Intel).
They certainly were not talking about today's Atoms, not even Pineview, but likely Medfield (which is supposed to have a phone/mid edition, and has a scheduled appearance for late 2010). But, all of this is far-far future and ARM/TI is sure to bring some goodies to the table in the meantime as well :)
Too late for what?
The phone is apparently going to start shipping on October 1st, so if Harmattan support is important to you, whatever is said on the Maemo Summit is too late.
I already have the device pre-ordered, and I'd like to know these things beforehand.
The phone is apparently going to start shipping on October 1st, so if Harmattan support is important to you, whatever is said on the Maemo Summit is too late.
I already have the device pre-ordered, and I'd like to know these things beforehand.
It would certainly be nice to have a more detailed roadmap. Just not likely.
Moral: don't predicate your purchases on unknowns. Buy what meets your needs and don't sweat the rest.
It would certainly be nice to have a more detailed roadmap. Just not likely.
Moral: don't predicate your purchases on unknowns. Buy what meets your needs amd don't sweat the rest.
Well, I did pre-order the device, you know :D
It's really just curiosity. Seeing how maemo 6 will probably include more cool stuff which would be nice to have.
Anyway, the community is probably going add A LOT more value to it with cool apps and I hope to contribute as much as possible, too. Being nearly a full blown computer I hope we'll have enough flexibility to add any features Nokia decides not to backport.
Whether or not nokia supports maemo 6 on N900 it should be easier to backport compared to maemo 5 and n770/n800 .
I'd guess the successor of the N900 will have 512 MB RAM and 1Ghz CPU.
sjgadsby
2009-09-07, 00:06
...i hear about Maemo 6 coming in a year...
And Maemo 7 should be coming about a year after that.
I love not helping.
Well they really need to make a plan for something like this i mean android have updates OTA so you don't' really have to change your device in a sense only reason would be is hardware limitation hence G1 and donut debate. Maemo should use the same methods people can't keep coughing up 700+ dollars every year.
Sounds like something Apple would do hence there 1 year iphone deal (upgrading it every may) only difference is its subsidized so unless they subsidize the n900 i think that will be kind of foul.
And Maemo 7 should be coming about a year after that.
My God-- EVERYTHING I'VE BOUGHT WILL BE OBSOLETE!!! :eek:
Gadsby's not the only turd around here.
Crashdamage
2009-09-07, 04:20
...android have updates OTA so you don't' really have to change your device...Maemo should use the same methods people can't keep coughing up 700+ dollars every year.
Nokia has already stated that the N900 will be capable of OTA updates. The only real question about updates is will the N900 get not only normal updates but fully upgraded from Maemo 5 to v6 when it comes out in a year or so. From what I've heard so far that has maybe a 50-50 chance of happening.
If so no doubt that would be nice, but it's probably not critical to a N900 being useful for at least a couple of years. Didn't stop me from pre-ordering a N900. There's always something better just round the corner anyway.
GeneralAntilles
2009-09-07, 04:28
The only real question about updates is will the N900 get not only normal updates but fully upgraded from Maemo 5 to v6 when it comes out in a year or so. From what I've heard so far that has maybe a 50-50 chance of happening.
Both the timeframe for Harmattan and its likelihood of being released on N900 hardware are complete conjecture and speculation at this point.
First of all the n900 is not a 'crap' phone.
He said he's considering to buy a crap phone, like an S40 based one to tide him over til next year.
One year is a lot in regards to technology and even that is not sure. It took almost 3 years for a hardware upgrade from n800 to n900. I hear that omap 3 is pretty advanced and the next generation is only an incremental update.
Ok, your first sentence seem to conflict the latter ones..
If i were you i would definitely buy the n900 especially since members in this forum have been waiting for ever for a hardware upgrade!
That sounds like a good reason for people to upgrade their device :) Apple and RIM should start up their semi-open developer incubation program, leave them stranded in a small forum somewhere for 3 years, then the device they release afterward will be a guaranteed commercial success :D
Just a quick question. Is it possible to upgrade the Maemo5 OS on n900 to Maemo6 when it becomes available? I know nokia will somehow modified the N900 and call it N910 by using the Maemo6 (and few modifications of course) to make your N900 look silly (obsolete).
Jack6428
2009-10-09, 16:00
Search, Search, Search, Searchbutton, Ho!
See the article from SlashGear on the Nokia presentation today:
http://www.slashgear.com/maemo-6-ui-concept-revealed-capacitive-multitouch-support-confirmed-0959800/
It may come down to the same problem we have with Maemo 5 on the N810 - the hardware won't support it.
Nokia needs to rework their ideas about phone support.
They're still stuck with the idea that they make a custom build of their OS for a particular phone model and then move it into "support only" where they make minor tweaks or bug fixes.
Apple changed all that completely. People now expect continual updates for their phone with new features and new applications. If Maemo 6 comes with features the N900 cannot support then obviously it can't have those features but there's no reason why it shouldn't get everything else.
franklinn
2009-10-09, 18:09
Nokia needs to rework their ideas about phone support.
They're still stuck with the idea that they make a custom build of their OS for a particular phone model and then move it into "support only" where they make minor tweaks or bug fixes.
Apple changed all that completely. People now expect continual updates for their phone with new features and new applications. If Maemo 6 comes with features the N900 cannot support then obviously it can't have those features but there's no reason why it shouldn't get everything else.
I don't get it. I own a 5800 and have received firmware updates over the air. Even the n95 was updatable in the same way as is N97 today - kinetic scrolling added this way.
Let me know when Apple starts OTA updates.
javispedro
2009-10-09, 18:11
Nokia needs to rework their ideas about phone support.
This is no phone. It's a computer. If Nokia decides that their new operating system requires a Gizmagish Physics 3D chip, you go find another OS.
I think people are losing sight of the context within which all this OS evolution is taking place.
The mobile [internet] device market is in its infancy. We're taking toddler steps right now. Hardware is evolving at one heckuva pace. Radical changes are afoot. This isn't like the progression of x86 hardware, where we could expect successive versions of linux (frex) to work on older hardware.
If Maemo6 doesn't support the N900, for whatever reason, there is nothing to prevent the OSS community from taking any modular compatible improvements and back-porting them to Maemo5.
It's far too early to be getting a bee in our bonnet
megaphone
2009-10-09, 18:23
I don't get it. I own a 5800 and have received firmware updates over the air. Even the n95 was updatable in the same way as is N97 today - kinetic scrolling added this way.
Let me know when Apple starts OTA updates.
i agree 100%. it's a real shame that Nokia has not been able to upgrade all S60 devices. certainly this has been discussed before, especially with regard to hardware features tied into S60 firmware releases. however, on the other hand, you streamline your code management and release(s) across say 1 S60 release, 1 S40 release and 1 maemo release. if you have an older device, the kernel should recognize this and block out any features not available on the specific platform. on a related note, seeing the announcements related to Qt on N900 today is gonna be great. in the future, you'll have the potential for 1 code base for your project that can include support for multiple operating systems. that's definitely the way to go!
somedude
2009-10-09, 18:26
Nokia needs to rework their ideas about phone support.
They're still stuck with the idea that they make a custom build of their OS for a particular phone model and then move it into "support only" where they make minor tweaks or bug fixes.
Apple changed all that completely. People now expect continual updates for their phone with new features and new applications. If Maemo 6 comes with features the N900 cannot support then obviously it can't have those features but there's no reason why it shouldn't get everything else.
Couple of questions for you.
Why can't a first generation iPhone surf on 3G speed?
Why cannot iPhone 3G take advantage of applications that uses compass?
Couple of questions for you.
Why can't a first generation iPhone surf on 3G speed?
Why cannot iPhone 3G take advantage of applications that uses compass?
Why can they all run OS 3.1.2?
You missed the point. It's not about what's been added to the firmware/hardware. It's the fact the OS - as in Maemo 5 & Maemo 6 - may not be upgradeable on the N900.
Couple of questions for you.
Why can't a first generation iPhone surf on 3G speed?
Why cannot iPhone 3G take advantage of applications that uses compass?
They don't have the hardware for those features.
However they get all features that can be supported by their hardware and there is a consistent platform for developers to target.
My N82 always shows the homescreen in portrait mode even when everything else is in landscape. The N85 and other phones support landscape homescreen but not mine. There's no reason why it shouldn't have gotten that feature.
It's far too early to be getting a bee in our bonnet
I don't think anyone has a bee in their bonnet. I'm sure we're all Nokia fans here and want to buy Nokia products but get disappointed by some aspects of how they do business.
I'm sure people will put together custom builds etc for the N900 but I'm really thinking of the normal user and of Nokia products in general.
Jack6428
2009-10-09, 18:36
Maemo 6 = multi-touch + capacitive screen => not fully possible on N900
However they get all features that can be supported by their hardware and there is a consistent platform for developers to target.
No they don't.
The first iPhone version has hardware that is fully capable of supporingt MMS, but Apple decided not to allow it in iPhone 3 OS upgrade for original iPhone.
No they don't. The first iPhone version has hardware that is fully capable of supporingt MMS, but Apple decided not to allow it.
I'm not saying their support is perfect which is why Nokia should do even better.
Maemo 6 = multi-touch + capacitive screen => not fully possible on N900
Correct but there likely will be other features people will like on their N900 and which are supportable. It would also be nicer for developers to just have to worry about Maemo 6.
somedude
2009-10-09, 18:42
They don't have the hardware for those features.
However they get all features that can be supported by their hardware and there is a consistent platform for developers to target.
My N82 always shows the homescreen in portrait mode even when everything else is in landscape. The N85 and other phones support landscape homescreen but not mine. There's no reason why it shouldn't have gotten that feature.
Thank you for answering your own earlier question. Its nothing more than the hardware limitation. How are you going to get a capitative screen on a resistive screen.
why did apple excluded 1st Gen iPhone for MMS where its hardware supports it completely?
Thank you for answering your own earlier question. Its nothing more than the hardware limitation. How are you going to get a capitative screen on a resistive screen.
why did apple excluded 1st Gen iPhone for MMS where its hardware supports it completely?
There's no reason why the N82 can't have a landscape home screen, there are mods for it.
As I said earlier the N900 won't be able to support all features of Maemo 6 but it should get the features it can support.
You could ask Apple about the MMS thing.
I'm not saying their support is perfect which is why Nokia should do even better.
Sorry, but you are clearly moving goal posts. In your earlir post you said: However they get all features that can be supported by their hardware and there is a consistent platform for developers to target.
Sorry, but you are clearly moving goal posts.
Oh gosh you're so right then Rauha. No Maemo 6 for the N900 please.
With some of the ideas qgil showed us on his recent UI thread, it may require more shoehorning than is worth it, to port to the N900.
With some of the ideas qgil showed us on his recent UI thread, it may require more shoehorning than is worth it, to port to the N900.
Quite possible - if it won't go it won't go. The first Android devices will probably stop getting new updates soon due to flash limitations but they did get some.
So with Maemo 6 we'll lose the apps that require pin point accuracy?
ie: sketching & handwriting apps, those with small buttons, etc
I mean, how will they be handled on the capacitive screens?
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for finger-friendly interface.. I'm guessing 90% of my personal usecase will be better served with capacitive screen anyway (provided the app is designed for it).
This is no phone. It's a computer. If Nokia decides that their new operating system requires a Gizmagish Physics 3D chip, you go find another OS.
Nonsense. I have a computer that doesn't have the graphics chip required to run Windows Vista Aero and it's fancy transparent windows crap. But I can still install and run the rest of Vista.
With computers the issue is generally backward compatibility, not forward compatibility. Assuming you have the basic capacity (sufficient disk space to hold the OS, sufficient RAM to load the OS, and sufficient CPU to run the OS) the hardware, regardless of how old it is, puts constraints on the OS but it doesn't prevent the OS from running. OTOH, trying to run an old OS on new equipment often means that the equipment isn't recognized because the drivers for components do not exist in the new OS.
Unlike computers, with phones you program to your hardware. Maemo 5 and 6 reflect the smartphone nature of the N900 and its successor.
It's unfortunate that I would have a better chance of running the latest Ubuntu on a 20 year old 386 than running Maemo 6 on a two year old N810.
thecursedfly
2009-10-09, 19:15
anyway, about the "no capacitive screen + multitouch in N900 = no maemo 6": just make a version with also/instead resistive screen drivers (or whatever software is needed), and disable multitouch gestures? o.o (I imagine it's just question of replacing or disabling one or more software packages..)
for the rest, I don't really see other possible hardware changes... (maybe a digital compass? but I don't see how that would limit OS components..)
There is plenty of new information that came today and I recommend you investing your time processing and digesting it instead of putting yourselves in especulation mode again.
One line to think about: how good is GTK+ at supporting multitouch and how smart would be to develop and productize that on Hildon/GTK+ when Nokia is actually investing in Qt?
Another 2 lines to think about: today it was announced that Maemo 6 applications will run on top of Web Runtime and Qt. Qt 4.6 support for Maemo 5 was announced today and the Web Runtime is basically a matter of Devkit and Javascript.
Do your math if you want to especulate further. :)
So with Maemo 6 we'll lose the apps that require pin point accuracy?
ie: sketching & handwriting apps, those with small buttons, etc
I mean, how will they be handled on the capacitive screens?
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for finger-friendly interface.. I'm guessing 90% of my personal usecase will be better served with capacitive screen anyway (provided the app is designed for it).
I would really hate to lose the ability for precise input on my portable computer. What a step backwards in progress from the Palm Pilot...
With that said, some companies (http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/14/htc-files-patent-for-capacitive-stylus-with-resistive-accuracy/) are finding ways around that. Let's hope that Nokia is among them.
I suggest you guys check this out:
http://www.umpcportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Capture_00073.jpg
From this:
http://www.umpcportal.com/2009/10/maemo-6-early-info-slides-and-info-direct-from-the-maemo-summit/
Laughing Man
2009-10-10, 00:54
So with Maemo 6 we'll lose the apps that require pin point accuracy?
ie: sketching & handwriting apps, those with small buttons, etc
I mean, how will they be handled on the capacitive screens?
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for finger-friendly interface.. I'm guessing 90% of my personal usecase will be better served with capacitive screen anyway (provided the app is designed for it).
In the long run it seems Nokia is shooting itself in the foot application and compatibility wise. Like it's been pointed out before, resistive and capcitative touch screens have their differences and their are pros and cons to each use (for example, pin point accuracy).
Not to mention it seems Maemo 6 + Device will be released in late 2010? 2011? Assuming all the developers here get the n900, what's their motivation for buying the next device and then creating apps for that (unless Nokia is giving it to them or selling at a developer discount rate). Especially given the price of the current n900 (at least $500!). Even game consoles live longer then that. Then your problem is, you design an application but it may be hard to run on two different operating systems with possibly two different control methods. For example, see the iPhone + iPhone 3G vs. iPhone 3GS. And for that it's just a memory and cpu difference! Most developers on that platform just build their applications for the older generation in mind and avoid implementing features unique to the 3GS)
@qgil, true it might be worth developing in QT. But some people prefer GTK and sometimes applications are simply just ported over with little optimization.
What is the problem developing your Maemo 5 apps in whatever toolkit you prefer? They will most probably work as is in a Maemo 6 environment, not being affected in a context assuming finger multitouch.
There might be corner cases, but making the case out of the cornercase is a distortion. I'm a Maemo heavy user testing and using regularly plenty of apps. The N900 stylus stays in it's place basically always since I'm using fingers all the time. I believe this will be true for most Maemo 5 users.
Oh no..
I have this vision... after having to eat their words for dissing iphone users not having MMS... Maemo is heading toward the promised capacitive finger friendly land too :D
Laughing Man
2009-10-10, 15:48
There might be corner cases, but making the case out of the cornercase is a distortion. I'm a Maemo heavy user testing and using regularly plenty of apps. The N900 stylus stays in it's place basically always since I'm using fingers all the time. I believe this will be true for most Maemo 5 users.
True, the amount of people who are interested in things like having an alternative operating system on there is a small group compared to the current Maemo group. And as Maemo becomes more popular I imagine most of the popularity will be with its regular use as a "smartphone".
Oh no..
I have this vision... after having to eat their words for dissing iphone users not having MMS... Maemo is heading toward the promised capacitive finger friendly land too :D
It'll be dismissed as "we like it that way anyway" or something.
Now is a good time to start a thread called...
"I like capacitive screen before it's cool (in TMO)" :D
javispedro
2009-10-10, 19:30
Nonsense. I have a computer that doesn't have the graphics chip required to run Windows Vista Aero and it's fancy transparent windows crap. But I can still install and run the rest of Vista.
And you can build most of Fremantle with sw rendering and install it on your N8x0, but it will be dead slow. The reason you cannot install the actual N900 binaries is explained below.
With computers the issue is generally backward compatibility, not forward compatibility. Assuming you have the basic capacity (sufficient disk space to hold the OS, sufficient RAM to load the OS, and sufficient CPU to run the OS) the hardware, regardless of how old it is, puts constraints on the OS but it doesn't prevent the OS from running. OTOH, trying to run an old OS on new equipment often means that the equipment isn't recognized because the drivers for components do not exist in the new OS.
Unlike computers, with phones you program to your hardware. Maemo 5 and 6 reflect the smartphone nature of the N900 and its successor.
I see only one difference: hardware configuration is mostly specified at build time instead of run time, because embedded platforms do not have a common configuration you can at least use to boot. But that does not prevent you from swapping out N900 and N810 kernels.
It's unfortunate that I would have a better chance of running the latest Ubuntu on a 20 year old 386 than running Maemo 6 on a two year old N810.
Good luck trying to run 586 binaries on a 386. Same as trying to run cortex-a8 binaries in a arm11.
Friend of mine gave me the iPod Touch 1g to play with... after playing with it for about the same time as I did with the N900/N00 I don't really notice much of a difference between the two technologies. And must say in the past have used resistive screens quite a bit(palm m105 and a few other devices). Once you understand how it works there isn't really much to it in the end.
Of course it might help that I tend to have a tad longer fingernails than the avarega geek.
allnameswereout
2009-10-10, 19:44
Of course it might help that I tend to have a tad longer fingernails than the avarega geek.Not too long, ehh...?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dE9ZVVetIV4/SZV5eDBVj3I/AAAAAAAAA7s/ri25NPJQCDw/s400/Lee-Redmond-Fingernails.jpg :D
That is freakin' hideous....I'll be having nightmares now
You can make plenty of organic styli with all those materials..
allnameswereout
2009-10-10, 20:07
You can make plenty of organic styli with all those materials..+1 brainstorm eco hippie forum (CO2 neutral). Now a wooden N900 case instead of plastic one.. ;)
And you can build most of Fremantle with sw rendering and install it on your N8x0
To go back to the topic of this thread (assuming anyone's eyeballs still work after those fingernails) that is the problem. "You can build", not "Nokia will build." Just as the community came up with hacked editions of later Maemo versions to install on the N770, I have no doubt that eventually some Maemo 6 version will be available for the N900 (and, hopefully, some sort of Maemo 5 will be available for my N810).
My point was that a a phone manufacturer, Nokia has not historically been concerned with making their latest OS compatible with existing hardware. If you are buying the N900, you should buy it based on the current capabilities of Maemo 5, not on the potential benefits of Maemo 6.
Why does the dang iPhone and its hardware get injected into a conversation about the N900 and its software. :confused:
EDIT: A rhetorical question^. No need to respond projecting the use of 2 or 3 year old technology on all future devices. It won't much matter then imho. :)
***
Thanks for your input regarding announcement timing and practical use qgil.
My next desktop monitor will more than likely be a touch screen... After using Maemo for awhile I sometimes catch my self trying to manipulate objects with my fingers on my current plain ol' 24" wide screen monitor when I do sit down at the desktop computer.
I'm thinkin' QT and developing GUI's like Maemo6 may have more influence on how we interact with all our computing devices in the future.
+1 brainstorm eco hippie forum (CO2 neutral). Now a wooden N900 case instead of plastic one.. ;)
Wood? You can't kill the trees man!
To be truly eco-friendly, everything must be fashioned from poo
javispedro
2009-10-10, 20:42
To go back to the topic of this thread (assuming anyone's eyeballs still work after those fingernails) that is the problem. "You can build", not "Nokia will build."
But that last sentence is exactly what I mean: "You can build", not "Nokia will build". Why are you waiting for Nokia to build it? Compaq (for example) won't provide you with updated versions of Ubuntu working with your 386 PC. As I said, you can install whatever OS you want on your N900.
Of course, I agree with the last part. Better not to expect Maemo6 to run on N900, as much as I don't expect Fremantle to run in N810. Not because it's not possible, but because nobody might want to do it.
In one year your shiny N900 is like what today the N810 is for the general population: nothing. Even though the hardware differences will be, like, 2%. It happens :( We are starting to see it already...
ossipena
2009-10-10, 21:11
Why can they all run OS 3.1.2?
You missed the point. It's not about what's been added to the firmware/hardware. It's the fact the OS - as in Maemo 5 & Maemo 6 - may not be upgradeable on the N900.
Why not 3.1.2? The question is which models can run the 4.0 in future... Do they disable 3gs's properties and drag 1g along further. 2 years is good support time imo.
I'd like to have maemo6 in my n900 but probably i'm gonna buy the next tablet next year if there are no major dealbreakers for me. And maemo is still doing big steps, i bet that when step 5 is ready, a lot has been standardized and there will be no more n810 style shortcomings.
And somebody speculated about hybrid touchscreen (capacitive and resistive at the same tine). That would be perfect for me!
I for one will miss the stylus if it goes away. I enjoy apps that allow doodling to accompany notes, and the precision it allows. It's a more elegant input tool for a more civilized PDA... ;)
Finger painting is fine now and then, but sometimes it just doesn't cut it.
Crashdamage
2009-10-10, 21:23
In one year your shiny N900 is like what today the N810 is for the general population: nothing. Even though the hardware differences will be, like, 2%. It happens :( We are starting to see it already...
2nd that notion. These days state-of-the-art hardware is state-of-the-art for about 15 minutes. Trying to always have the latest and greatest thing is pointless tail-chasing. There's always something better just around the corner. I'm not getting a N900 to have the latest hardware, I'm getting it to have good hardware running the most open, capable, i.e. the best, mobile OS.
Worrying now about if Maemo 6 will run on the N900 seems to me like worrying now if Windows 8 or RedHat 7 will run on your present PC. (From a regular user point of view, I understand it's can be a different thing for developers). Sometimes, ya just gotta enjoy using what you have and not be concerned about what might be in 1-2 years. I intend to get at least a couple of years use from a N900. If that's with Maemo 5, fine. If I can upgrade to Maemo 6, even better, and I hope I can. But if not I'll still be happy with it as is.
Keep in mind this is from a old-school guy that installs a new distro every few years, not months...but point is I'm not gonna worry about Maemo 6 or Snapdragon CPUs. I'm gonna buy and enjoy using a N900 and Maemo now.
allnameswereout
2009-10-10, 21:45
But that last sentence is exactly what I mean: "You can build", not "Nokia will build". Why are you waiting for Nokia to build it? Compaq (for example) won't provide you with updated versions of Ubuntu working with your 386 PC. As I said, you can install whatever OS you want on your N900.
Of course, I agree with the last part. Better not to expect Maemo6 to run on N900, as much as I don't expect Fremantle to run in N810. Not because it's not possible, but because nobody might want to do it.
In one year your shiny N900 is like what today the N810 is for the general population: nothing. Even though the hardware differences will be, like, 2%. It happens :( We are starting to see it already...We knew long ago Nokia N900 (or: the succesor of N8x0 series) would be based on OMAP3. We knew it'd have OpenGL. We knew there wouldn't be an official port for N8x0. We also knew many of the software would be open source and backports would be possible.
We know next Maemo 6 device is going to be based on Qt instead of GTK, but that does not break backwards compatibility, because current supports both. We know it may be based on OMAP3 or OMAP4. The former doesn't imply breaking backwards compatibility. We know it supports OpenGL ES (said so in slides).
But say a new device uses LTE, and all the cool stuff requires LTE speed. Does that break backwards compatibility? Officially, no. Yet, practically, yes. Say augmented reality becomes deeply integrated in our mobile computing. Devices without digital compass are then far less useful. Again, practically, requires you to either hack device or require new one.
One can argue: "yeah, iPhone OS 3 runs on my iPod touch or iPhone" but if you can't get a friggin' GPS working on it while neat applications and faster workflows use it (or actually, you simply cannot install software depending on GPS on the hardware) well then you're fried. And in this case, it is intentional crippling by Apple.
What you may reasonably expect by law is device works as advertised with its official, default features, as well as reliability and security upgrades, for a specific time (IMO about 2 years). Anything else is extra, free candy; gifts. So don't expect extras, don't look gifted horse in mouth. Don't demand. Be grateful instead.
My N82 always shows the homescreen in portrait mode even when everything else is in landscape. The N85 and other phones support landscape homescreen but not mine. There's no reason why it shouldn't have gotten that feature.
Damn right! There's a few other minor quirks with the N82 that could easily be fixed with a firmware update. No reason why that can't be done.
Compaq (for example) won't provide you with updated versions of Ubuntu working with your 386 PC.
And they shouldn't. They have nothing to do with Ubuntu. Nokia produces the software, so they should be updating it. The fact that they also make the hardware is irrelevant (for this example).
I suggest you guys check this out:
http://www.umpcportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Capture_00073.jpg
From this:
http://www.umpcportal.com/2009/10/maemo-6-early-info-slides-and-info-direct-from-the-maemo-summit/
Thanks for this info! So basically OMAP3, OpenGL ES (2.0) and WVGA will be the same. This is good news for developers. And on the same post, multitouch as an extra input method on capacitive displays; it does not say that capacitive displays are a must...? Hopefully there will be many different kind of devices so that we can choose whether to buy a capacitive or resistive (similarly to laptops having a transflective or transmissive LCD). And perhaps the N900 will sell massively so that the upgrade path to Maemo 6 will be taken for granted -- the next year will be about intense and excited software development in any case, continuing from the present. It is funny what kind of speculation this arouses -- judging on the info on that link, I would take a positive stance.
javispedro
2009-10-11, 12:05
Nokia produces the software, so they should be updating it.
Nokia produces part of it. Saying "Nokia produces the software" won't make all GNU, Linux and Gnome contributors happy.
Couple of questions for you.
Why can't a first generation iPhone surf on 3G speed?
Why cannot iPhone 3G take advantage of applications that uses compass?
Agree, or why cant the iPhone 2G or 3G run OpenGL games? The fact is that when there are hardware changes, it makes it hard to get support for devices without that hardware .. Mobile OSes are not modular enough yet to be able to abstract away all of the hardware and have a more hw-independent OS.
allnameswereout
2009-10-11, 12:30
Agree, or why cant the iPhone 2G or 3G run OpenGL games? The fact is that when there are hardware changes, it makes it hard to get support for devices without that hardware .. Mobile OSes are not modular enough yet to be able to abstract away all of the hardware and have a more hw-independent OS.Well, actually, binaries are optimized to take advantage of certain hardware features, and something like GPS is very easy to add via Bluetooth, and then the device can say 'I have my default capabilities, including X' (GPS over SPP) hence allowing GPS applications. Reason it doesn't on Appel, is purely commercial/contol_freak based. With Maemo thats different, although one cannot run ARMv7 binaries on ARMv6. Since firmware is for individual model, might as well be that iPhone 3GS runs optimized binaries where iPhone 3G does not. Also, the devices aren't that much different, so its easy to keep supporting legacy hardware. And, the original iPhone is now 2 years old. (I find 2 years an appropriate time for official support.) At least with Maemo most of source is open, and Maemo is modular enough to add support for new hardware. Not that I find it quite useful to be able to connect a CD writer to N8x0, but ppl have done it, using Linux drivers. And many more examples exist, just now without USB host mode is a bit different.
Agree, or why cant the iPhone 2G or 3G run OpenGL games? The fact is that when there are hardware changes, it makes it hard to get support for devices without that hardware .. Mobile OSes are not modular enough yet to be able to abstract away all of the hardware and have a more hw-independent OS.
The builds/updates for each iPhone is built for that hardware iteration. At the start of the build per OS level dictates which one it will be applied to:
iPhone 3.1 download (iPhone1,1_3.1_7C144_Restore.ipsw, 241 MB)
iPhone 3G 3.1 download (iPhone1,2_3.1_7C144_Restore.ipsw, 242 MB)
iPhone 3GS 3.1 download (iPhone2,1_3.1_7C144_Restore.ipsw, 306 MB)
What that means is that Apple builds out an OS that includes/excludes what's not there in the hardware/firmware.
Now, what does that truly mean? Apple's maintaining 3 builds at the moment, more in the future perhaps. But from the original iPhone to the latest, they all can run OS 3.1.2. The whole speed factor - that's due to going from EDGE to 3G, to 3G with CPU and more RAM enhancements. To be 100% honest, I've played with both the 3G and the 3GS... I didn't see that much of a difference in most surfing. And for the most part - I'm an atypical user - I tend to use more wifi surfing than 3G.
GodLikeCreature
2009-10-14, 12:43
Hi everybody,
From what I can understand, given how quickly phone hardware is growing, I can understand the difficulty in providing support to an old phone model. Having said so, as a Linux user for several years, having the latest version of a certain distro doesnīt necessarily change things dramatically.
In other words, I know many Ubuntu users who are still on Hardy, yet they still get updates on their kernels, they still get many application upgrades, and most importantly, even if those new versions for applications are not added to their repositories, they can still go after them an install them. Following the same logic, a Jaunty user wouldnīt suffer from not moving to Karmic, because s/he can still download and install most of the new features in Karmic (Firefox 3.5.x, Empathy, etc). Obviously, some of the OS specific stuff that is part of Karmic (software store, different notifications, default to ext4, Grub2, etc) would not be available in Jaunty, but the impact on the end user is not big, IMHO.
Is that analogy valid for an N900 user? If the case, a Maemo 5 user should still be able to enjoy 90% of what a Maemo 6 user will have available, right?
attila77
2009-10-14, 15:03
Can I get a quote where Apple promises that the next version of iPhoneOS will be backwards compatible with the previous devices ? Or is it anecdotal as in 'it was so up until now so we guess that's the norm' ?
@attila77: it's anecdotal, but they've done that for 3 'generations' now..
allnameswereout
2009-10-14, 16:38
The whole App Store is based on what devices contain which hardware features.
Quite typical for Apple.
However, like I said, that can be a disadvantage if you use e.g. Bluetooth or USB to get more features than orig device such as GPS.
No iPhone supports hardware OpenGL, the 3G S supports hardware OpenG ES, version 2.0.
The only feature in Maemo 6 that I've heard about so far that I really care about being missing in Maemo 5 on the N900 is compatibility with portrait orientation across the entire platform. Even Nokia's Maemo devices vice president Ari Jaaksi admitted at the Maemo Summit, according to Ars Technica, that the lack of portrait support is a real weakness. Indeed, to me it seems like the one area where the N900 is a real regression from other existing devices. It doesn't seem like there's any technical reason why these sort of features couldn't work on the N900, it has an accelerometer after all. I think it would be a big mistake for Nokia not to provide some sort of upgrade to cover these features in the N900.
I think the sort of more advanced users who are attracted to this sort of device, will have higher expectations and if they feel simply abandoned by Nokia that will not be a good fist step with Maemo. Nokia needs to please the early adopters, to help generate interest and buzz about Maemo. I also think, as others have indicated in this thread, that as phones become more and more like desktop computers, people do bring expectations with them from that experience, like software upgrades (precisely because the experience becomes more and more about the software, rather than the hardware).
attila77
2009-10-15, 10:52
@attila77: it's anecdotal, but they've done that for 3 'generations' now..
Technically, I'd say they have done it once... The iPhone 3G was not that more different (IIRC a different radio and AGPS, that's as much difference as there is between the N800 and N810), so the only real hardware change was when they switched to CortexA8 with the 3GS. I wonder if the Fremantle compatibility would have been any different if the TI drivers were available when that decision was made.
GodLikeCreature
2009-10-15, 11:50
I think the sort of more advanced users who are attracted to this sort of device, will have higher expectations and if they feel simply abandoned by Nokia that will not be a good fist step with Maemo. Nokia needs to please the early adopters, to help generate interest and buzz about Maemo.
Agreed
I think Maemo may suffer from taking this step when Android is already strong. Nokia should realise that and make an extra effort to please the community and attract developers. Lots of people from the Linux community are waiting anxiously for the N900 to be released, but if it turns out to be just a "prototype" for whatīs to come when Maemo6 is released, I think early adopters will turn their backs on Nokia forever.
I hope they are smart enough to provide enough continuity to N900 users... After all, we are talking about a very expensive gadget, one you donīt want to through away after 1 year!
Agreed
I think Maemo may suffer from taking this step when Android is already strong. Nokia should realise that and make an extra effort to please the community and attract developers. Lots of people from the Linux community are waiting anxiously for the N900 to be released, but if it turns out to be just a "prototype" for whatīs to come when Maemo6 is released, I think early adopters will turn their backs on Nokia forever.
I hope they are smart enough to provide enough continuity to N900 users... After all, we are talking about a very expensive gadget, one you donīt want to through away after 1 year!
What exactly would you like Nokia to do? They have given out N900s to hundreds of developers, they are constantly working on improving the developer tools. They have given plenty of information on what's to come in the next version so that the developers can prepare.
I don't know if N900 will run Maemo 6, but if I had to take a guess I would say it won't be supported officially. But still, would you have preferred them to skip Maemo 5 and N900 completely and move straight to Maemo 6? The "Who will ship first? Pandora or Nokia Tablet"-thread would be going forward at full steam for a year more.
There will be big changes in Maemo 6 compared to Maemo 5. If they are doing it, it's probably for the better. They still have a chance to do big breaks like moving from GTK+ to Qt but it will be a lot more difficult after Harmattan. I personally would hate if compromises would have to be made in Harmattan just for it to run on older hardware.
I think early adopters are generally aware of these realities but still choose to get an N900 because it is what works for them and they know it's not going to suddenly stop working after a Maemo 6 is released!
javispedro
2009-10-15, 13:19
but if it turns out to be just a "prototype" for whatīs to come when Maemo6 is released
"Prototype for what's to come"? Ha!
It might actually have a subset of the N900 features. You just don't know.
GodLikeCreature
2009-10-15, 15:16
What exactly would you like Nokia to do? They have given out N900s to hundreds of developers, they are constantly working on improving the developer tools. They have given plenty of information on what's to come in the next version so that the developers can prepare.
I don't know if N900 will run Maemo 6, but if I had to take a guess I would say it won't be supported officially. But still, would you have preferred them to skip Maemo 5 and N900 completely and move straight to Maemo 6? The "Who will ship first? Pandora or Nokia Tablet"-thread would be going forward at full steam for a year more.
There will be big changes in Maemo 6 compared to Maemo 5. If they are doing it, it's probably for the better. They still have a chance to do big breaks like moving from GTK+ to Qt but it will be a lot more difficult after Harmattan. I personally would hate if compromises would have to be made in Harmattan just for it to run on older hardware.
I think early adopters are generally aware of these realities but still choose to get an N900 because it is what works for them and they know it's not going to suddenly stop working after a Maemo 6 is released!
In my opinion, if they are making all this noise about the N900 being more a little computer than a mobile phone, and about the strenghts of Maemo being almost a full blown Linux implementation, itīs hard to understand that such device would be condemned to such short life and suffer from the same shortcommings as other "just mobile phones" out there.
I mean, in practical terms, a cheap new (yet powerful) Acer laptop today costs around 500 euros, and you may even find cheaper offers. Obviously, not only is it a much more powerful device, but you could easily use such laptop for 3 of 4 years without an issue, always using the latest from the Linux community...
How can Nokia justify no extended development support for an N900 considering how much they are charging for it and how they are advertising it? Come on, they want this to look like a real breakthrough, so it better be treated as such...
And you are definitely assuming a LOT about early adopters. I donīt deny some people can afford an N900 now and assume such important shortcommings, but I am sure many people are hesitating to buy an N900 due to its uncertain future, and I am among them.
At the end of the day, we are talking business here. Nokia has an opportunity now to start on the right foot, build a very strong user base which is full of satisfied customers, then build on that. If they try to attract users at all costs, they may end up with a lot of people feeling left out, and we all know how powerful that can be.
I really hope they take care of their users and prioritise their interests over having the latest technology.
GodLikeCreature
2009-10-15, 15:17
"Prototype for what's to come"? Ha!
It might actually have a subset of the N900 features. You just don't know.
Relax, I am not assuming anything. "If" states thatīs a condition. Just giving my opinion about a potential outcome.
I hope they are smart enough to provide enough continuity to N900 users... After all, we are talking about a very expensive gadget, one you donīt want to through away after 1 year!
Don't forget the different delivery channel for the Maemo OS - it's a binary that gets 'flashed' onto the device. It ain't like a linux distro that can accumulate a DVD-worth of legacy cruft to support Pentium3 machines onwards. Size constraints are a very significant factor.
If Maemo6 is well architected, then it may be reasonable to expect an N900 build to be hacked, stripping away any N920-specific hardware dependencies (multitouch frex), yet retaining the desktop sophistications that are envisioned.
Maybe.
bugelrex
2009-10-15, 15:25
The answer is simple:
When has Nokia EVER backported a newer (major version, not just bug fixes) firmware onto older hardware? .. NEVER
I doubt the reason's have been technical but solely about $$$. Encourage older users to buy newer devices, less testing and support for Nokia, designing the same software for both resistive and capacitive.. etc etc.
Unless it allows them to make more $$, I really don't see them doing it.
Unless it allows them to make more $$, I really don't see them doing it.
Sounds perfectly reasonable to me....they ain't a charity. We buy a device in a box...not a lifetime commitment.
Their enlightened stance on open source software is what gives the user community the greatest hope for longevity. I applaud them heartily for that.
GeneralAntilles
2009-10-15, 15:49
When has Nokia EVER backported a newer (major version, not just bug fixes) firmware onto older hardware? .. NEVER
Um, two Hacker Editions and, well, Mer (if indirectly) seem to refute your point. :)
thecursedfly
2009-10-15, 16:20
Um, two Hacker Editions and, well, Mer (if indirectly) seem to refute your point. :)
isn't that a community effort instead of Nokia? (dunno, just asking)
attila77
2009-10-15, 16:21
You could argue for Diablo on N800 as well. For the clock speed if nothing else :)
GeneralAntilles
2009-10-15, 16:33
isn't that a community effort instead of Nokia? (dunno, just asking)
It is, but my point is that it's a community effort that Nokia's providing support to with the intention of helping to get newer software on older hardware.
allnameswereout
2009-10-15, 17:04
Maemo 6 will have features which depend on DRM. It is questionable whether those are going to work on Nokia N900. They require a public as well as a private key which is based on hardware and secret. In theory, it can be made to work, but in practice it'd take a lot of effort and I wouldn't count on it. So I think a community-based distribution with backports from Maemo 6 is much more likely.
Personally, I don't find one year of software support long enough for a (mobile) device. Especially not a high-end device. I expect products to work longer than 1 (one) year, and if the product is unsupported after a year, that is not a good thing. Think of e.g. lack of backported fixes from Gecko upstream.
Soulfarmer
2009-10-15, 17:27
Why aren't anyone complaining or trying to complain that Symbian phones are made "obsolete" when a next device is published? If you who complain about compatibility with maemo6&n900 think N900 is not enough, why even waste your breath on it? Or this community? Is it like Mad Max apocalypse for you when each time you find a gas station you start to wonder should you or shouldn't you fill up just because you have no idea where is the next gas station and refill.
I know users would like more support than a year, but IF Nokia's stance is "get this or don't", would you rather have no N900 at all? I am no heavy user so this might not be as important to me as long time NIT users, but when I get my N900, I use it as long as it is usable or I want new one. Do you think release of Maemo6 makes N900 less usable? At all?
And yeah, I wouldn't mind if Maemo6 could be installed on N900, but that would be a bonus, if it doesn't fit, it is not making N900 lesser device now.
Hi, there is another thread fundamentally duplicated in the Maemo 6 forum. What about moving this thread there, closing one thread and concentrate the discussion in the other one? I have commented to some concerns here and there but it's impossible to know who has read what. Thanks!
GodLikeCreature
2009-10-15, 17:56
Well, I really don't understand that "take it or leave it" position, to be honest. I think discussion forums have that name for a reason... We are just exchanging opinions here...
Honestly, with its price tag and capabilities, I consider the Nokia N900 a professional device, not just another phone you through away when the new one comes up with 0.5 more megapixels in its camera!...
I don't know, I don't compare the N900 to any other phone out there, much less to any previous Symbian model, because I think it is in a league of its own. From my perspective, buying an N900 is like buying an expensive BMW... You are set to have different expectations than someone with a standard car, don't you?
I guess the N900 is a top of the line model and I expect everything around it to be top notch as well. Of course I know the device will work beyond one year, even if no Maemo6 migration is available, but as a customer I would be disappointed.
GodLikeCreature
2009-10-15, 17:57
Hi, there is another thread fundamentally duplicated in the Maemo 6 forum. What about moving this thread there, closing one thread and concentrate the discussion in the other one? I have commented to some concerns here and there but it's impossible to know who has read what. Thanks!
Hey, good idea... I will post in the Maemo 6 thread from now on.
allnameswereout
2009-10-15, 19:19
Why aren't anyone complaining or trying to complain that Symbian phones are made "obsolete" when a next device is published? If you who complain about compatibility with maemo6&n900 think N900 is not enough, why even waste your breath on it? Or this community? Is it like Mad Max apocalypse for you when each time you find a gas station you start to wonder should you or shouldn't you fill up just because you have no idea where is the next gas station and refill.
I know users would like more support than a year, but IF Nokia's stance is "get this or don't", would you rather have no N900 at all? I am no heavy user so this might not be as important to me as long time NIT users, but when I get my N900, I use it as long as it is usable or I want new one. Do you think release of Maemo6 makes N900 less usable? At all?
And yeah, I wouldn't mind if Maemo6 could be installed on N900, but that would be a bonus, if it doesn't fit, it is not making N900 lesser device now.Because my Symbian phone is well maintained, or at least much better, and because we're already seeing changes in better Symbian support.
I am not complaining about support in the sense you refer to. I'm not saying Maemo 6 should be ported to Nokia N900. I complain about lack of support for security and reliability issues; these should be maintained at least for 2 years.
Optionally, via a support contract. If you install a Linux distribution you'll also get these updates.
In my case this is no new concern. This was a concern I had back with Nokia N8x0 as well, as I observed Gecko holes not being backported in MicroB. Now that the Nokia N900 has 3G this concern is even more important.
Well, I really don't understand that "take it or leave it" position, to be honest. I think discussion forums have that name for a reason... We are just exchanging opinions here...
Honestly, with its price tag and capabilities, I consider the Nokia N900 a professional device, not just another phone you through away when the new one comes up with 0.5 more megapixels in its camera!...
I don't know, I don't compare the N900 to any other phone out there, much less to any previous Symbian model, because I think it is in a league of its own. From my perspective, buying an N900 is like buying an expensive BMW... You are set to have different expectations than someone with a standard car, don't you?
I guess the N900 is a top of the line model and I expect everything around it to be top notch as well. Of course I know the device will work beyond one year, even if no Maemo6 migration is available, but as a customer I would be disappointed.
android/iphone/winmo all offer upgrades(not bug fixes, but actually upgrades) to their software, i wish nokia would do the same
nevertheless i am buying the n900 for what it does NOW
It ain't like a linux distro that can accumulate a DVD-worth of legacy cruft to support Pentium3 machines onwards. Size constraints are a very significant factor.
Just to clarify, this will not be true for some of us. Yes, the kernel may have flash size contraints, but I can make init do what ever I want, with or without an initfs. Thus, my cruft can be over 45 GB.
Only memory and processor speed are limited; not OS storage space. I have more cruft on my n800 than I do on my desktops.
solarion
2009-10-15, 22:02
Backwards-compatibility (hardware as well as software) is a two-edged sword. I think that a prominent OS has driven that point home rather well....
I'm personally torn on it; I like the rapid advance but would like to get the new hotness on current hardware.
allnameswereout
2009-10-15, 22:21
Backwards-compatibility (hardware as well as software) is a two-edged sword. I think that a prominent OS has driven that point home rather well....Solaris?
Eagle eyes.
android/iphone/winmo all offer upgrades(not bug fixes, but actually upgrades) to their software, i wish nokia would do the same
nevertheless i am buying the n900 for what it does NOW
Exactly, I don't believe that there is some hardware limitation that just makes it impossible for Nokia to create a version of Maemo 6 that works on the N900.
It also may well be in Nokia's financial interest to do so. Obviously Maemo, and perhaps especially Maemo 6, is Nokia's answer to the iPhone. One of the things that has made the iPhone so profitable is the app store and iTunes, a source a revenue that extends well beyond the sale of the device itself. So you want to keep people engaged and happy with the device they have, so they keep coming back to purchase the other software based goodies. If people feel like they're being left behind after only a year, on the N900, their next device may well be an iPhone, WinMo phone, Android phone. They won't have as much of a reason to stick with Nokia and Maemo and so Nokia will lose the revenue stream from that customer that would go to the Ovi store, etc. Look at the crazy dedication people have to Apple products. Apple doesn't get there by leaving people behind. But if leaving people behind is what Nokia does with the N900, then it will risk remaining a niche product like the N95 and other high end smart phones of Nokia's past, rather than break out the way the iPhone and Android have.
GodLikeCreature
2009-10-16, 06:20
Exactly, I don't believe that there is some hardware limitation that just makes it impossible for Nokia to create a version of Maemo 6 that works on the N900.
It also may well be in Nokia's financial interest to do so. Obviously Maemo, and perhaps especially Maemo 6, is Nokia's answer to the iPhone. One of the things that has made the iPhone so profitable is the app store and iTunes, a source a revenue that extends well beyond the sale of the device itself. So you want to keep people engaged and happy with the device they have, so they keep coming back to purchase the other software based goodies. If people feel like they're being left behind after only a year, on the N900, their next device may well be an iPhone, WinMo phone, Android phone. They won't have as much of a reason to stick with Nokia and Maemo and so Nokia will lose the revenue stream from that customer that would go to the Ovi store, etc. Look at the crazy dedication people have to Apple products. Apple doesn't get there by leaving people behind. But if leaving people behind is what Nokia does with the N900, then it will risk remaining a niche product like the N95 and other high end smart phones of Nokia's past, rather than break out the way the iPhone and Android have.
+1
Spot on!
If I were to guess at the one resource that N900 may not have sufficiently for the next software generation.... it would be RAM.
256MB is a tight squeeze for modern software.
That's less than my 11 years old laptop!
(It had swap space too like the N900, so I think that probably cancels out.)
I've got Firefox 3.5 running on my current laptop (4 years old), and it's using 329MB virtual / 95MB resident memory with just 9 tabs in 4 windows open, none of them heavy (just forums and text articles with usual decoration), and only opened 2 hours ago (Firefox leaks memory over time).
So although I'm expecting the browser to run well on the N900, I'm not expecting to be able to open many windows, unless it uses a lot less memory than Firefox 3.5 per window.
Given the rate at which new software uses more and more memory, I wouldn't be at surprised if Maemo 6 apps need 512MB or 1GB of RAM to run usefully, and struggle with heavy swapping on the N900.
Just, y'know, guessing...
GeneralAntilles
2009-11-02, 02:16
I've got Firefox 3.5 running on my current laptop (4 years old), and it's using 329MB virtual / 95MB resident memory with just 9 tabs in 4 windows open, none of them heavy (just forums and text articles with usual decoration), and only opened 2 hours ago (Firefox leaks memory over time).
Out of interest, what operating system? Most modern operating systems are designed to use as much RAM as available, so using those numbers as a benchmark to determine how capable a machine with less RAM would be.
For example, the WebKit-based browser on my 8GB desktop machine is using 584.5MB of real memory and 1.04GB of virtual memory. So, clearly, WebKit wont run on the 256MB N900, right? ;)
I don't think that memory will be the primary issue here. Even if Maemo 6 is somewhat more memory intensive, it seems the n900 currently has enough memory that the device would still be usable. That said, I have seen cases where new versions of operating systems decrease memory usage. Happened on my netbook where after replacing hardy with karmic, memory usage at boot went from 200 MB to 150 MB.
Exactly, I don't believe that there is some hardware limitation that just makes it impossible for Nokia to create a version of Maemo 6 that works on the N900.
It also may well be in Nokia's financial interest to do so. Obviously Maemo, and perhaps especially Maemo 6, is Nokia's answer to the iPhone. One of the things that has made the iPhone so profitable is the app store and iTunes, a source a revenue that extends well beyond the sale of the device itself. So you want to keep people engaged and happy with the device they have, so they keep coming back to purchase the other software based goodies. If people feel like they're being left behind after only a year, on the N900, their next device may well be an iPhone, WinMo phone, Android phone. They won't have as much of a reason to stick with Nokia and Maemo and so Nokia will lose the revenue stream from that customer that would go to the Ovi store, etc. Look at the crazy dedication people have to Apple products. Apple doesn't get there by leaving people behind. But if leaving people behind is what Nokia does with the N900, then it will risk remaining a niche product like the N95 and other high end smart phones of Nokia's past, rather than break out the way the iPhone and Android have.
I think Apple is a bad example because even though their OS runs on all the iPhones the iPhone hasn't changed that much. Faster processor, more storage, camera, but what is really different between the models? The screen resolution is one of the lowest in the smartphone arena, still doesn't run Flash, just got copy and paste, MMS, GPS. Apple innovated with the first iPhone, not much after.
It's easy to support older hardware when you don't change much with the new hardware. Lets see Apple add a 800x480 screen and see how much backwards compatibility is maintained.
Out of interest, what operating system?
Ubuntu 9.10 - Karmic Koala.
Most modern operating systems are designed to use as much RAM as available, so using those numbers as a benchmark to determine how capable a machine with less RAM would be.
It's not really like that. OSes try to use all the available RAM for caching files and other things, but applications running on the OS don't try to use all the available RAM :-) And I was measuring the RAM used by Firefox.
However, Firefox (and other web browsers) may be a rare example of applications which do use more RAM depending on the amount you have, because browsing is so cache dependent, and it might also use more RAM when you have a larger screen.
For example, the WebKit-based browser on my 8GB desktop machine is using 584.5MB of real memory and 1.04GB of virtual memory. So, clearly, WebKit wont run on the 256MB N900, right? ;)
:-) Well, seriously, how many tabs/windows can you open on your N900 (if you have one) to random typical web pages?
I agree, Gecko != Firefox too. Sorry, mention of Firefox may have been a distraction.
More to the point, a laptop with 256MB cannot run very much these days, with any current major desktop OS. (Yes, ones which are optimised for small memory will work). That means the mobile OS is somewhat different in architecture as well as different usage and capabilities, to fit everything into that much.
Which means it's quite possible Maemo 6 may need more, just from wanting to do different things with it.
Of course it might use less if Qt is as good as I've heard ;-)
Exactly, I don't believe that there is some hardware limitation that just makes it impossible for Nokia to create a version of Maemo 6 that works on the N900.
It also may well be in Nokia's financial interest to do so. Obviously Maemo, and perhaps especially Maemo 6, is Nokia's answer to the iPhone. One of the things that has made the iPhone so profitable is the app store and iTunes, a source a revenue that extends well beyond the sale of the device itself. So you want to keep people engaged and happy with the device they have, so they keep coming back to purchase the other software based goodies. If people feel like they're being left behind after only a year, on the N900, their next device may well be an iPhone, WinMo phone, Android phone. They won't have as much of a reason to stick with Nokia and Maemo and so Nokia will lose the revenue stream from that customer that would go to the Ovi store, etc. Look at the crazy dedication people have to Apple products. Apple doesn't get there by leaving people behind. But if leaving people behind is what Nokia does with the N900, then it will risk remaining a niche product like the N95 and other high end smart phones of Nokia's past, rather than break out the way the iPhone and Android have.
Exactly
1++
For example, the WebKit-based browser on my 8GB desktop machine is using 584.5MB of real memory and 1.04GB of virtual memory. So, clearly, WebKit wont run on the 256MB N900, right? ;)
No, it just means you should stop using Macs :)
Hmmm... iPhone OS 3 runs on 1st gen iPhones. Hmm...
Nah, the real reason for Maemo6 to be brought out in some form on the N900 is to ease the transition from Gtk to Qt and to demonstrate Nokia's "commitment to openness".
Just think... it has taken many years of hard work (and 4 devices) to get Fremantle "nearly ready".
The next step is from comparitive niche to mass market; "bridging the gap" and all that jazz.
So, picture the conversation:
"I know. Just before we launch the mass market version lets completely replace the entire UI and gui SDK, all the apps, the security model, the desktop and even the main programming language. What could possibly go wrong?"
<long and incredulous pause>
"Err"
"Hmm, do you think we should test it on the N900 first?"
Uuuhm... did you see the most recent commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxiOKKF721U&feature=player_embedded)for the N900? If Nokia internally works like that, geeeez, the answer to that last question will be "No!"...
Ok, seriously, no they won't of course change as drastically as they did from OS2008 to Maemo 5. *BUT* I do think the N900 will be abandoned upon the presentation of the next gen Nxxx. Transition from the niche and experimental test bed onto consumer land most likely also means a change in marketing technique, eg. marketing behaviour which has to be considered normal in mass markets. Abandoning previous device generations *is* perfectly normal in electronical gadget mass markets. And it's not like they didn't try before with the 770 and the N800.
dantonic
2009-11-12, 23:31
Exactly, I don't believe that there is some hardware limitation that just makes it impossible for Nokia to create a version of Maemo 6 that works on the N900.
It also may well be in Nokia's financial interest to do so. Obviously Maemo, and perhaps especially Maemo 6, is Nokia's answer to the iPhone. One of the things that has made the iPhone so profitable is the app store and iTunes, a source a revenue that extends well beyond the sale of the device itself. So you want to keep people engaged and happy with the device they have, so they keep coming back to purchase the other software based goodies. If people feel like they're being left behind after only a year, on the N900, their next device may well be an iPhone, WinMo phone, Android phone. They won't have as much of a reason to stick with Nokia and Maemo and so Nokia will lose the revenue stream from that customer that would go to the Ovi store, etc. Look at the crazy dedication people have to Apple products. Apple doesn't get there by leaving people behind. But if leaving people behind is what Nokia does with the N900, then it will risk remaining a niche product like the N95 and other high end smart phones of Nokia's past, rather than break out the way the iPhone and Android have.
Absolutely! They can't afford to leave the N900 behind at least with the high interst/customer base that it seems to be gaining even before its release.
These "new" maemo customers will NOT come back to maemo if they get ignored by Nokia. This could be a very painful mistake for the future of maemo devices.
dantonic
2009-11-12, 23:36
Uuuhm... did you see the most recent commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxiOKKF721U&feature=player_embedded)for the N900? If Nokia internally works like that, geeeez, the answer to that last question will be "No!"...
Ok, seriously, no they won't of course change as drastically as they did from OS2008 to Maemo 5. *BUT* I do think the N900 will be abandoned upon the presentation of the next gen Nxxx. Transition from the niche and experimental test bed onto consumer land most likely also means a change in marketing technique, eg. marketing behaviour which has to be considered normal in mass markets. Abandoning previous device generations *is* perfectly normal in electronical gadget mass markets. And it's not like they didn't try before with the 770 and the N800.
That could be, but at the very least they should not Abandon the device and the OS like they did with the previous tablets.
Diablo still has plenty of bugs that are very annoying that could have been fixed through updates and improved the user experience, but they just left it.
Even if Maemo 6 won't be portable to the N900, they should still make sure they keep maintaining Maemo 5 once the New OS is out.
I'm pretty sure Maemo 6 will be available for the N900, otherwise it's pretty unfair. A device like the N900 is the the start of something great, you can't just bring a second device out & expect the N900 to just rot away.
That's what they did for the N810. We can't upgrade to Maemo 5. The N800 could upgrade to the N810's Diablo but the N770 couldn't officially (but there is a hack for that).
Nokia has never been overly concerned with yesterday's customer. If you buy the N900, expect to upgrade to a new phone if you want a new OS.
Well the previous tables can't upgrade to Fremantle because of hardware issues. Think of the UI, it's fully hardware accelerated. Hardware the N8xx's don't feature. But the N900's successors are most likely quite similar, hardware wise. Still I think the N900 will be maintained for a couple months into the new devices lifetime and then abandoned. We'll see, we'll see...
danramos
2009-11-12, 23:50
This is no phone. It's a computer. If Nokia decides that their new operating system requires a Gizmagish Physics 3D chip, you go find another OS.
If it's a computer that fits in my pocket, makes calls like a phone, costs like a phone, has the radio of a phone... it's a smartphone. You're only half-right.
danramos
2009-11-12, 23:59
Nokia has never been overly concerned with yesterday's customer. If you buy the N900, expect to upgrade to a new phone if you want a new OS.
That's a big part of the problem, I think. I keep feeling like Nokia is concerned with selling you the new thing and not really interested in keeping you as a customer and supplying you with accessories to beef up your initial investment with more stuff you can buy along the way. Gaww--I feel like I should be thankful I can buy a replacement BATTERY for my N800. I almost regret convincing so many people to buy N800's except that the device itself is rather fantastic. :P It's everything OUTSIDE of the tangible device that that's killing me aside from the increasingly open nature of the OS. (Thankful for at least that, I suppose... never truly felt fully open, to me...and that's a real problem now that it's being tossed aside for the new product to support.)
Well the previous tables can't upgrade to Fremantle because of hardware issues. Think of the UI, it's fully hardware accelerated. Hardware the N8xx's don't feature. But the N900's successors are most likely quite similar, hardware wise. Still I think the N900 will be maintained for a couple months into the new devices lifetime and then abandoned. We'll see, we'll see...
This is true.. but I can't help feeling that there's no really good reason to outright drop all support on devices that were released so recently. I'm hoping a lot of this gloom will evaporate from me once Mer comes out with a 1.0 and fully supports all the N8x0 hardware... someday. Of course, by then I've probably moved on and avoided Nokia's tablet devices because of all this. **grumble**
HTC and their lackluster business politics regarding the hardware accelerated graphics chips slumbering inside the whole lineup of last generation devices drove me away from their name quite quickly. I do own a HTC again, but it's Android powered and there was no real competition to chose from when I bought it. But as I let HTC go I can and most likely will if forced to (sounds soooo endlessly stupid) leave any other brand, Nokia included. In fact I never ever touched a Nokia again after the desaster they pulled off with the Nokia 6000. And it's only for the N900 I'll have a look at them again, now come on guys, don't screw this up again ;)
So... Qt 4.6 is now in Maemo 5 extras-devel. It's alpha-ish but already pretty decent according to the first developers trying it out (http://taschenorakel.de/michael/2009/11/11/qt-46-maemo-it-works/).
The Harmattan application framework is based in Qt 4.6. Plain Qt applications running in this Maemo 5 Qt 4.6 port should also run on Maemo 6 (perhaps with recompile, perhaps with little polishing tweaks... who knows at this point).
This also defines the minimum expectation: plain Qt apps for Maemo 6 can run on Maemo 5 with little or no tweaking.
Now think of the Web Runtime apps that will be running on top of Webkit on top of Qt 4.6.
Qt 4.6 is being designed with the focus on compatibility across Maemo, Symbian, Windows Mobile and other platforms shipping it (Moblin? Ubuntu? etc). Now compare that to the jump from Maemo 5 to Maemo 6. It's still the same platform.
attila77
2009-11-13, 13:55
Qt compatibility is nice, but I don't think the basic concern here is lack of backporting. I could just as well tweak Qt 4.6 to run on Diablo, but that will not fix metalayer-crawler or some other system level component's problems. The question is if with Harmattan we'll see the fixed-in-fremantle-which-you-cannot-upgrade-to story again and how Mer (and it's readiness for the general public) fits the picture when Harmattan device(s) hit the streets.
The Harmattan application framework is based in Qt 4.6. Plain Qt applications running in this Maemo 5 Qt 4.6 port should also run on Maemo 6 (perhaps with recompile, perhaps with little polishing tweaks... who knows at this point).
This also defines the minimum expectation: plain Qt apps for Maemo 6 can run on Maemo 5 with little or no tweaking.
Just a comment about running a plain Qt app on Maemo 6. Maemo 6 is fully QGraphicsView based application framework, so plain Qt apps based on QWidget will not (probably) look nice. Though they can be compiled and run on Maemo 6.
I hope they will provide like "MaemoStyle" for plain Qt apps and Hildon like port where e.g. all the Qt menus (file, edit, etc..) are handled by the application framework as the Qt 4.6 for Maemo 5 does.
So basically if you want to look at to the future, implement your application based on QGraphicsView and then it should run on Maemo 5 and Maemo 6 platforms with less effort needed later. On the otherhand, the Maemo 6 UI framework will provide bunch of QGraphicsWidget based widgets so it might be quite difficult to find a silver bullet that makes your application fit perfectly on Maemo 5 & 6. You can alway take a look at the Maemo 6 UI framework source code from gitourious and see how things work or will work unless they decide to change some essential parts.
Another thing that came to my mind is that, depending on which Qt 4.6 version is ported to Maemo there might be some differences. For example how well Qt's gesture API will be supported in official Maemo 5 version? I tested to build a Qt application that was based on "too new" Qt 4.6 version and when I compiled the app to Maemo 5 I noticed that QGesture and QTouchEvent were not included that version. Of course the version can always be updated later.
I might be wrong here also so please correct me if I have understood somethig wrong.
We make the earliest releases of Qt 4.6 for Maemo 5, the Maemo 6 UI Framework and Maemo 6 Qt (to come with a first Harmattan pre-release, just like we had Fremantle pre-releases) precisely to have time for everybody to test, give feedback, fine tune & so on.
Title says it all:
I'd like to know if there are any estimates for the release date of Maemo6, and if it will run on the N900. And if so would it maybe b pushed as an update ?
I'm thinking in terms of the long run, if it's worth it to buy the N900..
thank you
Ad 1st no release date (mmh the maemo5 device is just shipping and you ask for the next gen?!)
Ad 2nd not so far (but keep asking maybe it becomes yes)
Ad 3rd yes (keep in mind that Qt programs most likely will run on all three symbian maemo5 and maemo6)
hypnotik
2009-11-16, 17:34
Hah, N900 isn't even released, so, who can say. Hopefully Nokia will announce a realistic delivery date for Maemo6, but that's years in the future. 2016:D:D:D
RevdKathy
2009-11-16, 17:42
Will n900 run Maemo 6? My understanding is that no, there will be serious hardware changes so it won't.
As for when it will be released: best estimates say 12-18 months after maemo 5. Then add a month or two for delays in delivery and shipping... Somewhere around spring/summer 2011?
Personally, I'm reckoning that the n900 will be good for two or three years (about the life of a phone). If maemo 6 is coming on a device that's physically very different (or a range of devices) it may or may not be what I want. ;)
there are already several threads on that topic (search is your friend):
here's one (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=32627)
here's another (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31346)
all the answers are there :)
to sum it up in one sentence: it's not officially decided yet, but it's unlikely to happen.
GodLikeCreature
2009-11-20, 11:49
I keep thinking Nokia is moving too slow. A potential release of Maemo6 on spring 2011 is way too late! Considering the improvement weīve seen from Androd 1.x to Android 2.0, and that Google is rumoured to be shooting for a late next year Android 3.0 release, I keep thinking Nokia may fall off the wagon if they donīt expedite dramatically their development.
Andre Klapper
2009-11-20, 12:00
Please see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31346
attila77
2009-11-20, 12:49
I keep thinking Nokia is moving too slow. A potential release of Maemo6 on spring 2011 is way too late! Considering the improvement weīve seen from Androd 1.x to Android 2.0, and that Google is rumoured to be shooting for a late next year Android 3.0 release, I keep thinking Nokia may fall off the wagon if they donīt expedite dramatically their development.
The changes Maemo6 brings are the biggest changes in Maemo EVER. If they can pull that off in under a year AND make that a mass-market product on the first try, hats off.
The changes Maemo6 brings are the biggest changes in Maemo EVER. If they can pull that off in under a year AND make that a mass-market product on the first try, hats off.
That's the problem. Massive changes between versions rarely work out. Think of something like Windows XP to Vista and you get an idea of the pitfalls.
Instead Nokia should be looking at the Android model. Sure Android has its problems but there's no shame in copying what works. Make small incremental releases which work on the previous device. Make a Maemo release every three months with 25% of what you want instead of one release in a year with 100% of what you want. With the latter approach I guarantee the following:
-It won't be 100%, it'll be 80%. Scaled back to meet deadlines.
-It'll still be late anyway.
-That 80% won't be what people want so you end with with maybe 50% of stuff people want in addition to missing the things people do want.
It'll also keep N900 sales strong since customers will be confident that the device is beign supported and it's getting new features all the time.
Will Nokia do this? Probably not, it's too alien to their thought processes.
Viipottaja
2009-11-20, 14:23
Btw, some folks on other fora have jumped to saying "since Maemo6 will support multitouch, it cannot be ported to N900". Sounds like a load of rubbish to me - I would imagine it would not be that difficult to have any multitouch thingies turned off and be controlled with the good old mono-finger methods. :)
sjgadsby
2009-11-20, 14:44
Threads merged, title adjusted slightly to (hopefully) increase visibility in search, and tags added to (again, hopefully) assist with search.
sjgadsby
2009-11-20, 15:30
Make a Maemo release every three months with 25% of what you want instead of one release in a year with 100% of what you want.
Will Nokia do this? Probably not, it's too alien to their thought processes.
From the start of Maemo, Nokia apparently intended annual major-version upgrades to the OS. I find that to be a reasonably rapid OS release schedule. Heck, I still see Windows users bashing Apple for churning out Mac OS X releases that frequently.
The path is a bit rocky at the moment, with Elephanta skipped and Fremantle pushed forward, but there's no sign that Nokia intends to dally about in getting Harmattan ready. Meanwhile, the time and energy Nokia invested in getting SSUs working indicates to me that they have no intention of relying solely upon annual releases to get new code on devices.
As much as I'm looking forward to more minor-version updates to Maemo, I don't see the transition from Fremantle to Harmattan as the time or place for attempting the incremental change approach you propose. Swapping out GTK for Qt on a device while bringing a massively redesigned UI to the system and all apps may not be as hard to accomplish smoothly as the old libc5 to glibc change, if you remember that, but I'd guess that were it attempted, Nokia would wind up expending multiple times more effort on managing the transition than they did on actual design and code.
attila77
2009-11-20, 15:55
It's an age long engineering dilemma, finding the right balance between the evolutionary and the revolutionary parts of development, and there are no guaranteed recipes - every project needs to make it's own calls.
From the start of Maemo, Nokia apparently intended annual major-version upgrades to the OS. I find that to be a reasonably rapid OS release schedule. Heck, I still see Windows users bashing Apple for churning out Mac OS X releases that frequently.
Well firstly you're comparing desktop operating systems with consumer device operating systems. Certainly there's some converging going on but they're different things for different purposes.
Secondly the criticism of Apple is that they make you pay for each update not that they update too quickly.
Swapping out GTK for Qt on a device while bringing a massively redesigned UI to the system and all apps may not be as hard to accomplish smoothly as the old libc5 to glibc change, if you remember that, but I'd guess that were it attempted, Nokia would wind up expending multiple times more effort on managing the transition than they did on actual design and code.
The enormous scope of these changes is exactly why the odds of them trying to do it all in block in a year is likely to fail.
Each of those tasks (swap out GTK for Qt, redesign UI) needs to be broken down and managed. If they assign "Stable release milestones" on 3-4 month intervals and release that they'll be a lot better off even it's just the hardcore geeks taking those updates. They'll get a bunch of feedback on how things are going (particularly with regard to the UI) as well as a lot of real world testing so by the time the year is up the odds of them having something usable will be a lot higher.
pinguin74
2009-11-29, 10:01
Hi there,
will Maemo6 become available as an update for the N900? As far as I know the N900 is Maemo5 based? BTW, what kernel version use Maemo 5 and 6? Kernel 2.6.x?
Regards
Malte
maxximuscool
2009-11-29, 10:06
yes it will be in 2010. Not at the moment, I think will be atleast Q3 2010 or something when the N920 is announced then Maemo 6 will be also. Damn multitouch N920
pinguin74
2009-11-29, 10:14
yes it will be in 2010. Not at the moment, I think will be atleast Q3 2010 or something when the N920 is announced then Maemo 6 will be also. Damn multitouch N920
Ok. Just one stupid question, what is "multitouch"? What is the difference to a standard touch screen?
you know how some girls slap you when you touch them once?
The N900 doesn't.
"multitouch" refers to the ability of a touchscreen to track more than one finger at a time. Basically this lets you do things like two, three or four fingered gestures. "lbt" is a term that refers to someone who is being a dork. :)
-John
pinguin74
2009-11-29, 10:29
"lbt" is a term that refers to someone who is being a dork. :)
-John
Im sure some jealous Apple developers will surely thud at this fourm :D
yes it will be in 2010. Not at the moment, I think will be atleast Q3 2010 or something when the N920 is announced then Maemo 6 will be also. Damn multitouch N920
Just to avoid misunderstandings and spreading false rumours. No-one has ever promised N900 would get an official update to Maemo 6. Also no-one has ever said the next Maemo device would have multitouch. These may happen or may not happen but stating rumours as facts is not the way to go.
Laughing Man
2009-11-29, 23:06
I believe multi-touch is not confirmed in the next Maemo device. But having a capacitative screen is.
Cherrypie
2009-11-30, 07:30
I believe multi-touch is not confirmed in the next Maemo device. But having a capacitative screen is.
Don't all capacitive screens feature multitouch?
ossipena
2009-11-30, 08:04
I believe multi-touch is not confirmed in the next Maemo device. But having a capacitative screen is.
wasn't it another way round?
capacitive hasn't been mentioned but multitouch has been...
Don't all capacitive screens feature multitouch?
The hardware probably does. But even then also the drivers have to support it. And even if both the hardware and the drivers support multitouch, the software has to support it too.
You can try running for example WinXP on a capacitive screen and you'll notice that no matter how hard you pinch or pan or rotate nothing happens.
It will be implemented in Maemo 6, but not necessarily before.
maxximuscool
2009-11-30, 09:06
Just to avoid misunderstandings and spreading false rumours. No-one has ever promised N900 would get an official update to Maemo 6. Also no-one has ever said the next Maemo device would have multitouch. These may happen or may not happen but stating rumours as facts is not the way to go.
You have no idea buddy. Take a read:
http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/09/maemo-6-ui-concept-reveled-to-include-portrait-mode-capacitive/
This is not rumour. Maemo 6 is multitouch. And Maemo6 will be compatible with N900 but don't hold your breath with multitouch on it. It wont happen on N900. May be the next Maemo device.
maxximuscool
2009-11-30, 09:08
There will be maemo 6 for N900 you wait and See :D
You have no idea buddy. Take a read:
http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/09/maemo-6-ui-concept-reveled-to-include-portrait-mode-capacitive/
This is not rumour. Maemo 6 is multitouch. And Maemo6 will be compatible with N900 but don't hold your breath with multitouch on it. It wont happen on N900. May be the next Maemo device.
Maemo 6 devices will have multitouch, yes. There _may_ however be other Maemo 5 devices before that. And to say the _next_ device will have multitouch or capacitive screen is pure speculation. And I would like you to provide a link where someone from Nokia actually confirms that there will be an official Maemo 6 update to N900 because that's what I was talking about.
Disclaimer: Just in case my location gives you any ideas, I'm not in any way affiliated with Nokia and have no insider information on this.
there is no official answer if n900 will get maemo6 support from nokia, they have stated many times in interviews that its too early to say either way
Great rumor topic, as nothing has been confirmed yet.
I'm hoping that the 'next' upgrade in hardware which also brings maemo6 will have multitouch capabilties, but on one of the newer resistive technologies!
There is allready much more out there then resistive or capacative, like hybrid screens you can use a normal stylus on, but also your finger or finger nail. Saw a video about this a while back. :) (http://www.viddler.com/explore/engadget/videos/292/48.848/)
As for multitouch, resistive, capacative, n900 with maemo6, etc. I believe not much if anything has been confirmed.
One thing I remember is that I believe at the summit they mentioned multitouch in maemo6.
maxximuscool
2009-11-30, 09:31
No official confirmation but the hardware of the next N-series will be very similar to N900. Therefore N900 would get to use maemo 6 hacker edition or something. Just like the previous generation hacker edition.
maxximuscool
2009-11-30, 09:34
wow that resistive multitouch is awesome..
The multitouch will almost certainly be a no-go for N900 should they make Maemo 6 available for it as the resistive panel is not made by Stantum (at least the controller in N900 is a pretty standard TI 4-wire resistive touch controller and the very fine, almost invisible line pattern present in Stantum panels is absent. The line pattern on the N97 is not that subtle, it serves some other purpose in case anyone's wondering).
However, if the interface takes its user commands as events as the Xserver usually does these days, it may very well be possible to tie single-finger gestures from the touch framework to provide the same input to the UI components as a true multitouch input from the captouch controller. I'm not sure how the circular motion zoom is implemented in detail, though, but it implements exactly the same effect as a captouch pinch - zoom in on the center of the gesture. A test of this concept, by any chance? :P
Other than the touch implementation, assuming the hardware differences will be slight instead of the OOHH-so-satisfying-to-even-think-of ARM Cortex-A9 MPCore @ 1+ GHz dreams Maemo 6 should be quite easily made available on the N900 as well. It's just a matter of checking what input devices are available on boot and generating the input events based on that. Should the first Maemo 6 devices not have a physical keyboard, it must naturally be provided by the captouch-managing parts of the drivers instead of the physical keyboard controlling parts of the SW. Maemo is a quite true Linux, implementing this shouldn't be a problem.
And yes: me wants Maemo 6 on N900! Yes! Even if it means giving some of the slickest functionality up.
Edit: Typomaster 2000 rescanned the text :P
maxximuscool
2009-11-30, 09:47
The multitouch will almost certainly be a no-go for N900 should they make Maemo 6 available for it as the resistive panel is not made by Stantum (at least the controller in N900 is a pretty standard TI 4-wire resistive touch controller and the very fine, almost invisible line pattern present in Stantum panels is absent. The line pattern on the N97 is not that subtle, it serves some other purpose in case anyone's wondering).
However, if the interface takes its user commands as events as the Xserver usually does these days, it may very well be possible to tie single-finger gestures from the touch framework to provide the same input to the UI components as a true multitouch input from the captouch controller. I'm not sure how the circular motion zoom is implemented in detail, though, but it implements exactly the same effect as a captouch pinch - zoom in on the center of the gesture. A test of this concept, by any chance? :P
Other than the touch implementation, assuming the hardware differences will be slight instead of the OOHH-so-satisfying-to-even-think-of ARM Cortex-A9 MPCore @ 1+ GHz dreams Maemo 6 should be quite easily made available on the N900 as well. It's just a matter of checking what input devices are available on boot and generating the input events based on that. Should the first Maemo 6 devices not have a physical keyboard, it must naturally be provided by the captouch-managing parts of the drivers instead of the physical keyboard controlling parts of the SW. Maemo is a quite true Linux, implementing this shouldn't be a problem.
And yes: me wants Maemo 6 on N900! Yes! Even if it means giving some of the slickest functionality up.
Edit: Typomaster 2000 rescanned the text :P
Totally agreed man.:D
No official confirmation...
Please stop promising this then. When someone asks if they will get an OS update on their device they most probably mean an official one. And if they are simply answered "yes" by someone who seems to know what he's talking about they will expect it. This way at some point we'll have a lot of angry people complaining that "Nokia promised we would get an OS update!! They lied to us!!"
Edit: By OS update here I mean specifically Fremantle -> Harmattan
attila77
2009-11-30, 13:52
Other than the touch implementation, assuming the hardware differences will be slight instead of the OOHH-so-satisfying-to-even-think-of ARM Cortex-A9 MPCore @ 1+ GHz dreams Maemo 6 should be quite easily made available on the N900 as well
It has been stated that it's OMAP3, so Cortex-A9 is not an option (A9's would be OMAP4). The 3440 is IMHO unlikely as the 3430 already is on the edge with regard to power consumption. IMO they either keep the 3430 (I hope not), or move on to 36xx that would mean a 720MHz with a comparable power envelope or (less likely) a 1GHz.
sjgadsby
2009-11-30, 13:54
Threads merged.
maxximuscool
2009-12-02, 19:10
This is from NOkia.
http://www.nokia.com/press/press-releases/showpressrelease?newsid=1358666
Nokia Devices & Services operational priorities
In addition to providing its key financial targets, Nokia also outlined key Devices & Services operational priorities for 2010. These are:
- Improve our user experience;
- Re-engineer our Symbian user interface; deliver a major product milestone before mid-year 2010, and another major product milestone before the end of 2010;
- Deliver our first Maemo 6-powered mobile computer, with an iconic user experience, in the second half of 2010;
- Significantly increase the proportion of touch and/or QWERTY devices in our smartphone portfolio;
- Scale up our Services business by expanding geographically and in partnership with more operators;
- Provide third party developers with better tools to create applications and content for our Ovi ecosystem;
- Further optimize the industry's lowest cost end-to-end business model in Mobile Phones; and
- Continue to build on our affordable and localized services offerings for emerging market consumers.
ivgalvez
2009-12-09, 11:30
I think that the main concern is not only if N900 will be upgraded to Maemo 6 or not, but if the official Nokia software provided with Maemo 5 will be improved with new features and enhancements.
If you take a look at Bugzilla, most of the enhancements (spetially related to GUI non conformant with Hildon style) or improvements are "won't fix" until Harmattan.
So, does it mean that we won't see any enhancement to the N900 software stack? If there is no such upgrade to Maemo 6, it is.
So, does it mean that we won't see any enhancement to the N900 software stack? If there is no such upgrade to Maemo 6, it is.
Doubtful. Save for a minor update or two, Nokia will forget about the N900 users and focus only on Maemo 6, which most likely won't work on the N900. Its the same stupid story with the prior tablets. Make, ship, then forget & move on.
Its like buying a Dell that will only run XP, nothing else, and if you want Windows Vista you have to buy a new Dell, and if you want Windows 7 you have to get yet another Dell. Its a crappy model.
Maemo 3 -> N800
Maemo 4 -> N810
Maemo 5 -> N900
Maemo 6 -> N920
Maemo 7 -> N950 (or whatever, N1000 just looks silly)
javispedro
2009-12-09, 21:11
That is so wrong on many levels than I won't even reply but just unsubscribe from the thread. D'oh!
...most of the enhancements or improvements are "won't fix" until Harmattan.
So, does it mean that we won't see any enhancement to the N900 software stack? If there is no such upgrade to Maemo 6, it is.
Makes me worry as well, especially since the just posted aims for 2010 quite clearly make Maemo 6 and a device it runs on a main target. Should I or shouldn't I buy a N900 now or wait another 18 months (hey, it said second half 2010 which means summer 2011 :p)... Damn, it always hurts so much to shell out another 500 bucks every half a year... :D
I think that the main concern is not only if N900 will be upgraded to Maemo 6 or not, but if the official Nokia software provided with Maemo 5 will be improved with new features and enhancements.
Without knowinhg the bugs you're referring to it's impossible for me to give any answer beyond "Maemo 5 will have updates". Please ask in those bugs adding me to the CC or link them here. Thanks!
To rjzak, this has been discussed and all goes down to the mistake of comparing a stable x86 architecture for the more stable category of laptop/PC with the fast evolving OMAP architecture and mobile devices. This time the hurdle is the jump from resistive to capacitive sceen, from single touch to multitouch. In principle this is technically easier to bridge than an OMAP incompatible jump.
As said before several time, this debate is too especulative for my taste before a first Harmattan release showing what are the UI changes. In principle most middleware don't have big issues jumping to/from Maemo 5/6.
At the end the equation today is simple: if you like the N900 and you have the money, buy it. If not, look for something else, now or in the future, from Maemo or from someone else. I'm confident that if you are reading these lines now you are going to be happy with Maemo. :)
Doubtful. Save for a minor update or two, Nokia will forget about the N900 users and focus only on Maemo 6, which most likely won't work on the N900. Its the same stupid story with the prior tablets. Make, ship, then forget & move on.
Its like buying a Dell that will only run XP, nothing else, and if you want Windows Vista you have to buy a new Dell, and if you want Windows 7 you have to get yet another Dell. Its a crappy model.
Maemo 3 -> N800
Maemo 4 -> N810
Maemo 5 -> N900
Maemo 6 -> N920
Maemo 7 -> N950 (or whatever, N1000 just looks silly)
Wrong.
(You would have a point if you were talking about Symbian devices, though.)
The first tablet, the N770 shipped with OS2005 ("Maemo 1"), which was later upgraded to next version, OS2006. Afterwards, Nokia launched the second tablet, the N800, with OS2007; and due to feedback from users, incorporated elements from 2007 with the 2006 edition, thus creating the OS2007 Hacker Edition for the N770.
Eventually, the N810 was launched, with OS2008 ("Maemo 4" AKA Chinook), and the N800 was also upgraded to this OS. Another Hacker Edition was made for the N770, with parts of the new OS. Time passed and an updated version of OS2008 (Maemo 4.1? AKA Diablo) was launched for the N8x0 devices.
It was decided to skip the next release, Elefantia, and integrate its features on its sucessor, Fremantle (this caused a somewhat long period where nothing new was seen on the NIT horizon after Diablo). Which brings us to today, with Fremantle running on N900 hardware.
So there.
abubakar
2009-12-10, 08:24
...
At the end the equation today is simple: if you like the N900 and you have the money, buy it. If not, look for something else, now or in the future, from Maemo or from someone else. I'm confident that if you are reading these lines now you are going to be happy with Maemo. :)
n900 is fresh :) and ultra cool. M6 device will be announced somewhere in the mid of next year and will ship God knows how many months afterwards .. n900 makes sense from all aspects.
ivgalvez
2009-12-10, 11:37
Without knowinhg the bugs you're referring to it's impossible for me to give any answer beyond "Maemo 5 will have updates". Please ask in those bugs adding me to the CC or link them here. Thanks!
Just an example:
- Bug 5625 (RSS Feed Reader): Feed list (Folder tree) uses non-finger friendly classic scrollbars
[...]
Comment #1 from Andre Klapper (maemo.org) 2009-10-20 20:41:46 GMT+3 [reply]
According to the Spec the folder tree uses a GTK Tree View.
It is not planned to change this for Fremantle - keeping this open for Harmattan.
[...]
They are usually related to non-finger friendly UI's or lack of features.
Regards
osfight.de
2009-12-10, 11:48
Just an example:
- Bug 5625 (RSS Feed Reader): Feed list (Folder tree) uses non-finger friendly classic scrollbars
[...]
Comment #1 from Andre Klapper (maemo.org) 2009-10-20 20:41:46 GMT+3 [reply]
According to the Spec the folder tree uses a GTK Tree View.
It is not planned to change this for Fremantle - keeping this open for Harmattan.
[...]
They are usually related to non-finger friendly UI's or lack of features.
Regards
Got something similar as a reply to a bug, related to the GUI, but not multitouch. The same guy though. I am not sure, why they are so anal about this topic. Either way, a road map for Maemo 5 would be nice, to see what we can rely on and on what not.
Just an example:
- Bug 5625 (RSS Feed Reader): Feed list (Folder tree) uses non-finger friendly classic scrollbars
Thanks, answered: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5625#c6
It's a problem in an application (that happens to be open source, by the way). In the times of Harmattan, N900 users will have several choices for a RSS Feed Reader anyway.
osfight.de, I can provide concrete explanations if you provide concrete bug numbers.
ivgalvez
2009-12-10, 15:05
It's a problem in an application (that happens to be open source, by the way). In the times of Harmattan, N900 users will have several choices for a RSS Feed Reader anyway.
Of course, I think lots of alternatives will appear any time soon. But for average-joe user, upgrades and improvements are expected, even if it implies changing a default application for a better one.
In the case of the example, the RSS feed reader is absolutely under featured and the UI is a mess, so I would expect to be substituted for a better application if it can't be fixed.
It's the same concept of a Linux distribution. With every release, some of the applications are improved, others are replaced with better alternatives.
If the N900 wouldn't receive an upgrade to Maemo 6, at least this kind of improvements/replacements should be done.
Thank you, anyway, for your responses and clarifications. I appreciate very much your work.
Ellipsys
2009-12-15, 08:48
I've just placed my order for my N900 and I can only say that I feel most emphatically that I hope Maemo6 will be available in its full glory on the N900. I would hate to purchase a device that will be outmoded for no good reason, like a common WindowsMobile device! I purchased Maemo for new paradigms in mobile OSes, and I'd hate to see it not to be able to upgrade to the latest and greatest without buying new hardware.
Sure, I can see how some features may not work the same way on the N900 if the next maemo device has new hardware, but that's no reason to hold back an update. The N900 would simply not have a program version that has say, capacitive multitouch support in its repository.
farrukhgondal
2009-12-16, 22:05
Do anybody knows will N900 be able to run upcoming Maemo 6 ? :)
The title's kinda misleading. It sounds more like an announcement
farrukhgondal - the short answer is that nobody outside of Nokia knows and Nokia hasn't made an official announcement
Everyone Else - Be nice, remember that English may not be farrukhgondal's native language.
P.S. I had also hoped that it was an announcement. :(
sjgadsby
2009-12-16, 22:59
Threads merged.
christexaport
2009-12-16, 23:14
Going by history, I'd expect it to. Previous models were upgradeable. But hardware requirements depend on the final feature set and functions of Maemo 6. I'm sure Nokia is trying to stay within the constraints of the N900 hardware, but sometimes the software will decide what hardware is necessary. Evidently, the hardware platform hasn't been set in stone at the moment. If it were, Nokia could simply give an answer, but they haven't, so we'll wait.
Evidently, the hardware platform hasn't been set in stone at the moment. If it were, Nokia could simply give an answer, but they haven't, so we'll wait.
Not necessarily. You might be surprised how far in advance N900 hardware was set in stone prior to it even being publicly acknowledged by Nokia. ;)
christexaport
2009-12-16, 23:21
Texrat, I thought about that myself. Hardware is tested for 1-3 years, and hardened way faster than my theory lets on. Makes me think it is strategy to protect sales. Makes me think it won't, now that I think of it. But I hold out hope...
expresspotato
2009-12-17, 00:32
Ugh nokia... Learn a thing or two from Apple.
If the hardware supports it (Which it does) then release the freaking update. I don't enjoy going hungry because you didn't want to release the update.
Release the update when you're ready.
HangLoose
2009-12-17, 15:00
My question is not if N900 will be upgraded to M6. If Nokia is saying that it can't be done either you people don't buy N900 and get over it or be happy with what you have. Since the beginning it was "hinted" that probably N900 would not support M6 anyway so get over it.
I bought N900 and I am happy with it.
BUT... I would like to know if M6 will be a more a release that will see just incremental updates, instead of revolutionary ones like M5->M6. When M7 comes out would the devices that used M6 be capable of using M7?
If not, the excuse that "we dont know what the future holds and be happy with what you have" doesnt hold anymore. After all, it is marketed as a mobile computer and I can do this with my computers. Also iPhonies/Droidz can do the same...
People will just flock to other platforms if they can get a "new OS" for 9.99.
expresspotato
2009-12-17, 20:02
Good point! Even if I had the option to PAY to upgrade I would still be happy. I'm not at all for china needing to mass produce another million units and pump that much death into the air because Nokia wasn't willing to release it to current users.
Ugh nokia... Learn a thing or two from Apple.
If the hardware supports it (Which it does) then release the freaking update. I don't enjoy going hungry because you didn't want to release the update.
Release the update when you're ready.
I'd have to agree, and if the new hardware is basically the same except for multi-touch, maybe a compass, etc... It's pretty easy to retrofit it anyway in the N900 and keep binary compatibility with some little check for the very specific features.
Of course if the CPU jumps to 2Ghz and we get a SLI 3D card things might be too different to consider it ;-)
benny1967
2009-12-18, 15:55
I'd have to agree, and if the new hardware is basically the same except for multi-touch, maybe a compass, etc... It's pretty easy to retrofit it anyway in the N900 and keep binary compatibility with some little check for the very specific features.
Not too sure about that. Might be they want to push some new UI elements that rely on multi-touch... How would you make them run on an N900? Yes, you could always argue that they could check if the hardware's available and then provide either this or that interface/gesture... but that's not what Nokia usually does. They concentrate on one solution and deliver. (I'm not saying this is good. It's just the way it usually is.)
I'm glad this thread exists, though. Now the N900 is out and the first firmware upgrade will soon be released, what else would we have to talk about? ;)
OrangeBox
2009-12-19, 17:35
Great thread. The bigger problem I foresee with Maemo 6 is not whether we'll be able to run it or not on the N900(we sure will, eventually), rather whether we'll be able to run Maemo 5 software on Maemo 6 unmodified or not. Basically unless Maemo 6 will have a built in Maemo 5 emulator (much like xp support for windows 7), all the hard work of the community will be wiped out as far as Maemo 5 apps concerned: the cycle of porting will be forced to continue.
People will just flock to other platforms if they can get a "new OS" for 9.99.
If enough people ever wake up and realize they're not really getting that, then what?
Basically unless Maemo 6 will have a built in Maemo 5 emulator (much like xp support for windows 7), all the hard work of the community will be wiped out as far as Maemo 5 apps concerned: the cycle of porting will be forced to continue.
Qt development is the cure.
Great thread. The bigger problem I foresee with Maemo 6 is not whether we'll be able to run it or not on the N900(we sure will, eventually), rather whether we'll be able to run Maemo 5 software on Maemo 6 unmodified or not. Basically unless Maemo 6 will have a built in Maemo 5 emulator (much like xp support for windows 7), all the hard work of the community will be wiped out as far as Maemo 5 apps concerned: the cycle of porting will be forced to continue.
This is a totally different question. Feel free opening a new thread to discuss it. fwiw we are saying that Maemo 5 Qt 4.6 apps will run in Maemo 6 and we are discussing with GTK+ and Hildon maintainers how to get their Maemo 5 API ported to Maemo 6. For the rest is mostly about porting bindings, I guess.
HangLoose
2009-12-20, 11:47
If enough people ever wake up and realize they're not really getting that, then what?
Problem is that they wont. :(
People still think more with their pockets. Even more because they can not grasp the difference between a new OS and some company finally letting you use the BT module that was inside of your phone for a "small price".
People think it is a nice idea to pay a bit more and get an "upgraded" machine because they are thinking that they made a GREAT deal. Heck, if Nokia would charge me 10e for M6 on my N900 I would sign up tomorrow. :P
I am deviating from the main topic of the thread now and talking more about psychology than about the technology under M6 and N900 but since there are a lot Nokia folks here, Hi Quim!! :D, maybe, just maybe, something might change...
PolarWolf
2009-12-29, 16:05
Interesting thread, but I've only managed to read half of it. All the other software and library versions aside (most of it is OSS, it can ported from and to pretty much everything) the key point in being able to support older hardware in a newer OS is the availability of drivers for the hardware. If the kernel boots on the hardware, the rest is basically details. So the question I have is whether the hardware of the N900 will be supported by Maemo 6 (noone can answer this one), or better, is the hardware of the N900 supported by the kind of drivers which are portable to newer kernel versions. If the drivers for the N900 are binary only and Nokia won't update them to Maemo 6 then basically the N900 is a dead end.
OTOH, I'm sure the entire software stack of Maemo 6 will likely work just as well on the older kernel revision of Maemo 5. I care more about community support and updates than the "official" ones. Is there any deeply technical reason why the software stack of Maemo 6 wouldn't run on a Maemo 5 kernel which has the proper hardware drivers available?
attila77
2009-12-30, 22:08
So far the biggest potential hurdle is the input hardware (and thus likely usage paradigm), Maemo 6 being multitouch.
Viipottaja
2009-12-31, 03:36
Even that should be easy to overcome by just having an option to switch it off, no? I cannot really imagine a usage paradigm that would be so dependent on multitouch as to render it unusable/non-user-friendly if turned off.
Laughing Man
2009-12-31, 03:59
Neither can I. Games could use the hard keyboard. Things like pinch zoom, just zoom with rocker at the top. Or swirl to zoom. There probably is something that can be done only with multitouch but I can't imagine multitouch being enough a reason to block putting maemo6 on the N900.
If a lot of the apps that come with M6 are dependent on multitouch, you could stick with the ones currently in M5 that are not multitouch-oriented. Otherwise, a refresh of everything else may be nice, so it'd be nice if N900 users could upgrade to M6 for everything except the multitouch apps.
For re-binding to solve the multitouch problem, you could make it so you could hold down the volume button or shift key or whatnot while tapping the screen, and then release to create an "anchor point". Then, you could touch the screen again for the secondary point. Or, a key which toggles symmetrical pinching in which if you touch the right side of the screen, a mirror touch point is created symmetrically on the left side, making it pinch or zoom depending on if you moved towards or away from the center. I mean, most or all of the apps are going to be doing something like that any way, where the touch points are symmetrical in regard to the center of the screen. I can think of few instances where this won't be true. There's simply not enough screen space really to allow anything but that.
maemo is ****ing awesome. who needs gimmicky pinching touch? oh yea....
OrangeBox
2010-01-08, 02:05
So far the biggest potential hurdle is the input hardware (and thus likely usage paradigm), Maemo 6 being multitouch.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't single touch a subset of multitouch? If Maemo 6 will support multitouch it must also support single touch, right? So using a single touch hardware like the N900 means that the screen will only return single touch gestures, but that should not affect 99 percent of usability.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't single touch a subset of multitouch? If Maemo 6 will support multitouch it must also support single touch, right? So using a single touch hardware like the N900 means that the screen will only return single touch gestures, but that should not affect 99 percent of usability.
I agree with your conclusion (I can't believe that the interface must require multiouch); but your logic doesn't "prove" anything, in fact the exact opposite.
Have you seen Superman 3? There's a scene in a bank where Richard Pryor has to insert two key cards simultaneously, 6 feet apart.
Now, let's reread your logic:
[I]sn't [inserting one keycard] a subset of [inserting two keycards]? If [the bank] will [open the vault by] [inserting two keycards] it must also [open the vault by] [inserting one keycard], right?
A naysayer is me!
I don't think nokia will bother to port maemo 6 to the n900 unless it can be done in 20 minutes.
Think about it: why would they spend time and resources reducing their potential market for the next device? (i guess few n900 owners would buy the next one if they can have maemo6 without)
Then again, hackers have also done amazing things until now. Maybe there might be a M6HE
HangLoose
2010-01-08, 13:28
Have you seen Superman 3? There's a scene in a bank where Richard Pryor has to insert two key cards simultaneously, 6 feet apart.
Man, I could not disagree more with this analogy...
If you explain it to me, in a software development way, on how it cant work, let's say multi-touch API's have a totally different way of implementing "touch" than the "single"-touch ones(which would already prove to be a miserable design), would be better understood...
There is always some dodgy hack to be applied to the software level that could compensate in some hardware deficiency (sometimes the opposite also holds true).
(Just getting out of the topic a bit)
N900 is spreading like wild fire here in my company, provided that the company I work for gives us free phones and the money for the n900 comes from our pockets, and many people that I know from my company is already thinking in developing with Qt or Python because of this device. So it means that Nokia gained momentum with it...
And it comes back to what worries me, is how Nokia will try to update its Maemo line. Nokia needs to give the ability for its users to update the software of their mobile computers without the necessity of buying another device...
And I am not talking about the N900, I am talking about when the update for M6 comes out. People are already waiting to update their phone with the latest software, not in a hackish way, and nothing screams more professional than having a computer that can be updated hassle free...
i think that the nokia n900 will get MAEMO 6 OS 8th or 10th firmware update for the phone with java suport and lot more space for installation and battery fix that lost alot longer and bugs fix.
Why? Nokia wont disappoint us nokian
and the current stage that it is in it only support multi touch,
i think that nokia is try to give us multitouch on the resistive screen+keybroad but it wont be perfect as capacitive screen right know in my option.
Its pretty much unstable as it is in production
just options
HangLoose
If you explain it to me, in a software development way, on how it cant work, let's say multi-touch API's have a totally different way of implementing "touch" than the "single"-touch ones(which would already prove to be a miserable design), would be better understood...
There is always some dodgy hack to be applied to the software level that could compensate in some hardware deficiency (sometimes the opposite also holds true).
(Just getting out of the topic a bit)
N900 is spreading like wild fire here in my company, provided that the company I work for gives us free phones and the money for the n900 comes from our pockets, and many people that I know from my company is already thinking in developing with Qt or Python because of this device. So it means that Nokia gained momentum with it...
And it comes back to what worries me, is how Nokia will try to update its Maemo line. Nokia needs to give the ability for its users to update the software of their mobile computers without the necessity of buying another device...
And I am not talking about the N900, I am talking about when the update for M6 comes out. People are already waiting to update their phone with the latest software, not in a hackish way, and nothing screams more professional than having a computer that can be updated hassle free...
I total agreed with you please nokia dont disappoint us
airbillion
2010-01-19, 02:54
I hope Nokia updates the n900 with Maemo 6! I will be so disappointed if they do not. That would mean the n900 is already a dead end if it can not run the newer OS when it is available, what a waste if it is not happening. I would not buy another Nokia tablet if this is the case. The iPhone 1st generation, which is over 2 years old has been updated every time a new OS has been released. Come on Nokia don't disappoint us!!
Laughing Man
2010-01-19, 02:57
I hope Nokia updates the n900 with Maemo 6! I will be so disappointed if they do not. That would mean the n900 is already a dead end if it can not run the newer OS when it is available, what a waste if it is not happening.
Not necessary. For one thing there's Mer. And even if you didn't want to run Mer, then Nokia's plan is for apps to be cross-platform as long as they are built using QT. So ideally you could take an app programmed in QT from Symbian or say Maemo 6 and run it in Maemo5. And vice versa in the future.
But yes, Nokia will have to make an interesting decision.
i think that the nokia n900 will get MAEMO 6 OS 8th or 10th firmware update for the phone with java suport and lot more space for installation and battery fix that lost alot longer and bugs fix.
s/MAEMO/Maemo/.
We know PR1.2 is planned, hoping for 8-10 updates to Maemo 5 seems... unrealistic (see bugs.maemo.org and past number of updates).
We know that the current plan for Harmattan is to install the OS and apps to the eMMC (and so probably the NAND for swap), but this isn't definite - pending, for example, performance tests (see Marius' emails to maemo-developers about /opt)
Java, despite my own personal feelings, seems very unlikely. Nokia has two strategic development platforms: Web Runtime (HTML/JS/CSS) and Qt (primairly C++, but with a lot of support to Python as a language too).
planetf1
2010-01-20, 20:39
I hope we see Maemo 6, but I don't expect it.
I happen to think that the market has evolved. Android devices are now being regularly updated by google, and even WinMob machines are now being upgraded (in some cases) to newer OS levels. iPhone of course has been doing this too, through hw revisions.
so all the key competition is ALREADY allowing OS updates on existing devices. Maemo is pushing the boundaries for openness and trying to push market share. for Nokia to cut off a large installed base by not updating the OS is in my view suicidal. We may as well head off to Android right now.
...
I hope we see Maemo 6, but I don't expect it.
I happen to think that the market has evolved. Android devices are now being regularly updated by google, and even WinMob machines are now being upgraded (in some cases) to newer OS levels. iPhone of course has been doing this too, through hw revisions.
so all the key competition is ALREADY allowing OS updates on existing devices. Maemo is pushing the boundaries for openness and trying to push market share. for Nokia to cut off a large installed base by not updating the OS is in my view suicidal. We may as well head off to Android right now.
...
did you read this thread? specifically the post detailing how the 770, 800 and 810 were upgraded through the different maemo releases?
Is there any reason to think that they wouldn't do the same now?
crenquis
2010-01-22, 00:49
From the way that they were talking about Maemo 6, I got the feeling that the n900 would have the same fate as the 770 Tablet...
Made me hesitate at first, but still got a n900...
wouldnt it make sense for nokia to let n900 owners upate to maemo6 when its avalible
if you can totally reflash the device wouldnt this be possible with something like maemo flasher??
surely it would be like upgrading xp - vista - windows7 exscuse the microsoft termanolagy
if nokia are using us as maemo beta testers wouldnt it make sense to let us upgrade to maemo6 and then they only have maemo6 to concentrate on development wise
to me it would make sense iam sure the n900 hardware wouldnt provide any problems
as the n900 is so like a computer i would think it would be possible
wether nokia would allow it though
would anyone buy it like a service pack :-) that another option and one where nokia is win win so surely they would like that
they dont loose if you keep maemo 5
they gain money if you buy the maemo6 service pack
they make money if you buy a new maemo6 device
sounds like the perfect compromuise to me
id be willing to pay 50-60 tops for maemo 6 service pack depending on what it offers over maemo 5
what about you peeps :-)
From the way that they were talking about Maemo 6, I got the feeling that the n900 would have the same fate as the 770 Tablet...
Made me hesitate at first, but still got a n900...
This is disappointing. To me it just seems like it would be cleaner for Nokia to deprecate Maemo 5 and force everyone to move to Maemo 6 when its released so that there is one Maemo application framework to have to support. While the transition might be tricky in the long run having more devices on few operating systems is better for everyone. In this day and age being forced to upgrade is something we're just used to doing.
This assumes there are no hw limitations preventing the upgrade.
planetf1
2010-01-22, 16:48
I agree, the more I think about how to
- keep the evolving community engaged
- easily provide new capability for the N900 without split development resources
it has to be "n900 supports Maemo 6".
trying to retrofit too much stuff to M5 is expensive.
yet making M6 available for N900 gives quick access to a large team of users who'll be incented & excited to continue developing apps, report bugs on the M6 platform. Many of these issues are unlikely to be HW dependent, so this benefits new devices too
This is what I expect from an open, linux environment -- supporting a variety of HW really shouldn't be hard. maemo is intended to support multiple devices. Support is being ADDED for things like multitouch, but not at the removal of single-touch.
Google (android), Apple (iPhone OS), Microsoft (WinMob) are all doing some amount of upgrading of existing HW with new OS versions. In their case it's purely a push - but it keeps buyin to the platform, and may reduce support issues.
yet maemo not only has this but as I said above an "army" of testers out there helping improve the environment. To not utilise this to me is to say the community isn't valued.
planetf1
2010-01-22, 17:18
Exactly
1++
1++ (from 2010)
javispedro
2010-01-22, 17:26
And yet again, someone requesting the new operating system for their older device.
Look, I want _official_ Harmattan ("M6") support for the N900 as much as everybody else, but: why are you not requesting Fremantle ("M5") support for the N810/N800?
Because the majority no longer cares about the N810. This community has been overrun by N900 owners.
And that's exactly what will happen when the N910 comes. Your N900 will be worthless (for Nokia/rest of the world -- you can of course keep using it, as much as I keep using my N810 for night reading since the N900 still doesn't beat it at that).
Having that in mind, consider if your arguments have really any value. The only valid argument IMHO is "as a good will gesture" which would, of course, be very good.
And yet again, someone requesting the new operating system for their older device.
Look, I want _official_ Harmattan ("M6") support for the N900 as much as everybody else, but: why are you not requesting Fremantle ("M5") support for the N810/N800?
Because the majority no longer cares about the N810. This community has been overrun by N900 owners.
And that's exactly what will happen when the N910 comes. Your N900 will be worthless (for Nokia/rest of the world -- you can of course keep using it, as much as I keep using my N810 for night reading since the N900 still doesn't beat it at that).
Having that in mind, consider if your arguments have really any value. The only valid argument IMHO is "as a good will gesture" which would, of course, be very good.
Actually that is a fair question. In fact how feasible is it to get maemo 5 ported to previous devices?
If we are demanding maemo 6 is back-ported to the n900 then it is only fair to demand maemo 5 to previous Nokia tablets.
Ok, I know I'm a N900 user, so maybe it's a bit skewed, but my opinion is that N800 was a bit of a flop (by comparison). Not a phone, limited usage, 250 GBP (I found references in launch-price GBP).
N900 is much more well rounded device, has the best hardware available, IS a phone and it was 500 GBP at launch.
I'm not trying to be a general poke in the back, but realistically speaking, N900 deserves a bit more attention than previous tablets, especially since it CAN run M6 easily considering it's being developed more or less on it, using the M5 as a base.
Don't get me wrong, if the next N900++ device will be just as the N900 but the screen covers more area, is 1280x720, the keyboard has numbers and so on, a-buying-I-will-go. Maybe Galileo? To soon?
It's not that much of an effort.
Also, frankly, how the UI looks is less of an interest to me. If Nokia asks for another 500GBP this year, the sales are not going to be great because nobody buys a Ferrari that expires next week.
This is already a problem of Nokia's in my view - they keep releasing phones like it's the model count that matters. Always releasing, always abandoning. I know people who long for the 7110. Not everyone wants HD color touch.
The IPhone gets a release per year (June, July, June) and the older versions are not forgotten in the least. They have their issues, but abandonment isn't one of them. I know people with the original version still installing stuff every day.
Just sayin'.
The N8X0 didn't get Maemo 5 because Nokia hates you, it didn't because their hardware couldn't run it, specifically the 3D UI.
Now, if Maemo 6 for some reason doesn't run in the N900, perharps a way to solve the problem would be Nokia offering a massive discount on the sale of a new M6 device to N900 owners, for example, you send them your N900 unit and they mail you back a 60% discount voucher for the new device.
TheLongshot
2010-01-22, 18:49
And yet again, someone requesting the new operating system for their older device.
Look, I want _official_ Harmattan ("M6") support for the N900 as much as everybody else, but: why are you not requesting Fremantle ("M5") support for the N810/N800?
Because the majority no longer cares about the N810. This community has been overrun by N900 owners.
And that's exactly what will happen when the N910 comes. Your N900 will be worthless (for Nokia/rest of the world -- you can of course keep using it, as much as I keep using my N810 for night reading since the N900 still doesn't beat it at that).
Except that there are probably a lot more N900s out there than there are N800/N810s. Also everyone assumes it will be like that relationship, and not like the relationship between the N800 and N810, which the N800 originally shipped with OS2007 and was later upgradable to OS2008 after the N810 came out.
sjgadsby
2010-01-22, 19:06
Ok, I know I'm a N900 user, so maybe it's a bit skewed, but my opinion is that N800 was a bit of a flop (by comparison).
Ok, I know I'm a <Maemo 6 device> user, so maybe it's a bit skewed, but my opinion is that N900 was a bit of a flop (by comparison). Barely a phone, limited usage, no capacitive multitouch.
<Maemo 6 device> is much more well rounded device, has the best hardware available, IS really a phone and has a real touchscreen.
I'm not trying to be a general poke in the back, but realistically speaking, <Maemo 6 device> deserves a bit more attention than previous devices, especially since it's the first flagship device that runs Maemo.
Just sayin'.
..........
javispedro
2010-01-22, 19:31
Add in to the mix that the official reason Fremantle doesn't work in the N810 is because of the missing GPU. There's only ONE component in Fremantle using the GPU: the window manager. (The other components can't run because Fremantle is built for ARMv7, but that should be trivial to fix).
Now, the official reason for Harmattan not being available in the N900 is multitouch. Guess how many components and applications are using it? I'd be surprised if not ALL of them have some multitouch gesture.
If any, releasing, maintaining, documenting, and handling the UI differences for an official port of Harmattan for the N900 will be even more difficult for Nokia than releasing an official port of Fremantle for the N810.
livefreeordie
2010-01-22, 20:04
Are you still getting security patches for the previous tablets? Because to me it seems like the biggest improvement IS the window manager. Do you really need Maemo 5 if you can't have that? I've never used the older ones, but based on screenshots they look fine for the purpose they serve.
planetf1
2010-01-22, 20:11
A LARGE discount (and I mean 40%+) on a M6 device may mitigate the impact, but you're still talking a big hit.
In terms of multitouch maemo as an OS is not (should not) be targetted at a single piece of hw. It should be a platform (like android) which can be extended to support new devices
* I would have thought maemo will end up supporting both capacitive and resistive displays
* Multitouch is an additional form of input - a non-multitouch capable display just won't generate those gestures
* For accessibility & usability reasons the interface must not entirely RELY on multitouch
Given this I don't see it as a reason why M6 can't support N900 (there may be other reasons)
So we're now presenting a set of options
* Continue broad support for M5 (personally I think this will be incomplete/restrictive & costly)
* support M6 on N900
* offer incentives for people to upgrade (reward early adopter community)
suspect nothing much will happen though :-(
livefreeordie
2010-01-22, 20:15
In terms of multitouch maemo as an OS is not (should not) be targetted at a single piece of hw. It should be a platform (like android) which can be extended to support new devices
Nope, Symbian is optimized for running on a wide variety of hardware. Maemo is the best platform, and optimized for the best hardware. I'm guessing three variations, max.
I was bored and waiting for a train so I decided to read the review of the n900 in the latest issue of What Mobile. The review was n't super enthusiastic score wise but actually summed up the phone's strengths well.
The thing that jumped out at me was that it clearly stated that the n900 will get Maemo 6 and that this would increase the life of the phone. For those of who want portrait pictures and ovi contacts not to mention turn by turn navigation this would be good news.
I assume this national UK magazine must have got this info from nokia but an official confirmation would ease a lot of worry
I think you should send them an e-mail. Any good journalist should give their source when there is no good reason to keep it secret.
I think you should send them an e-mail. Any good journalist should give their source when there is no good reason to keep it secret.
Just done that - We'll see what happens
that was quick - thank you Jonathan
"Nokia has a policy on the (former) Internet Tablets to offer an upgrade to the following version of the OS, which has been the case on every device since the original 770 was released (back when it was OS 2007, 2008 etc).
We were told at Nokia World (last September) that this would continue on the N900 and its successors. It seems likely that the next two models (one which is going to be a netbook design) will have Maemo 6, upgradeable to 7. At this point, the N900 would be on 6 and theoretically have no further support.
Having said that, Nokia has usually continued support for longer than you'd expect. I suppose with Apple and Google/Android now offering free upgrades on an ongoing basis, Nokia will find it harder to simply say something is end of life as quickly as they have done before.
I hope this helps!
Regards,
Jonathan Morris
Editor, What Mobile magazine & online"
Excellent - that's the closest I have ever seen to solid info regarding M6 on the N900, thanks!
cleareyes
2010-01-26, 14:13
This is great news!
And I also find the netbook-design with maemo interesting.
This is great news!
And I also find the netbook-design with maemo interesting.
Lots of interesting stuff in that text. Wouldn't mind to see this "netbook" either if it's true.
Lots of interesting stuff in that text. Wouldn't mind to see this "netbook" either if it's true.
Have a look at Apple's iTablet tomorrow - then you will get an idea. But: Apple will for sure bring (print media) content for this device also. And this is still the missing link when it comes to Nokia - they are just always one step behind Apple and - now with Android - Google...
sjgadsby
2010-01-26, 14:29
The thread "What mobile review n900 - maemo 6" with eight posts has been merged into this thread.
russo_br
2010-01-26, 16:33
that was quick - thank you Jonathan
"Nokia has a policy on the (former) Internet Tablets to offer an upgrade to the following version of the OS, which has been the case on every device since the original 770 was released (back when it was OS 2007, 2008 etc).
We were told at Nokia World (last September) that this would continue on the N900 and its successors. It seems likely that the next two models (one which is going to be a netbook design) will have Maemo 6, upgradeable to 7. At this point, the N900 would be on 6 and theoretically have no further support.
Having said that, Nokia has usually continued support for longer than you'd expect. I suppose with Apple and Google/Android now offering free upgrades on an ongoing basis, Nokia will find it harder to simply say something is end of life as quickly as they have done before.
I hope this helps!
Regards,
Jonathan Morris
Editor, What Mobile magazine & online"
Thanks, good news!!
Now assuming the Nokia employee who told this to the journalist really had a relevant role at the company and thus wouldn't say such thing just based on own assumptions, why doesn't Nokia officially confirm that? Maybe there are good reasons from both technical and business point of view, but I don't know them.
Can previous tablet owners confirm if Nokia told them in advance they would receive an OS upgrade before it was released?
ZShakespeare
2010-01-26, 17:23
It would be a very poor idea for Nokia to promise an upgrade to n900 owners now, to ease our minds, and not deliver later on rather than it would be for them to suprise us at, or close to, release with a shiny new piece of software for our phones.
That being said. Nokia does have a history of upgrading the tablets, and we know from the maemo summit that the hardware architechture, which is the commonly quoted reason for maemo 5 not being available on the older devices, will not be changing. As mentioned before, in the current climate where Apple and Google upgrade their devices, it would definately be to Nokia's benefit to follow suit lest they continue to see their market share decline in favor of more progressive software practices.
This applies to Symbian as well.
russo_br
2010-01-26, 17:41
Definitely Nokia's image on the market would be very affected if they don't give an upgrade to N900 owners while competitors like Apple and Google do.
Not compromise with the upgrade now is obviously more comfortable, but since competitors are compromising it is also a competitive disadvantage. Maybe they think the average consumer does not consider this fact when choosing their mobile/tablet, so it isn't a big deal.
vietn900
2010-01-26, 18:02
as much as i want to believe this ... i dont think that nokia will upgrade the n900 to maemo 6. why? because what they did to fp1 devices which lacks hardware support.... up to this date i still haven't seen any confirmation on maemo 6 device having the same hardware or at least we know it would bring multi touch?
i hope im wrong but i dont want to put high hope on it and be disappointed later.
"Nokia has a policy on the (former) Internet Tablets to offer an upgrade to the following version of the OS, which has been the case on every device since the original 770 was released (back when it was OS 2007, 2008 etc).
We were told at Nokia World (last September) that this would continue on the N900 and its successors. It seems likely that the next two models (one which is going to be a netbook design) will have Maemo 6, upgradeable to 7. At this point, the N900 would be on 6 and theoretically have no further support.
Having said that, Nokia has usually continued support for longer than you'd expect. I suppose with Apple and Google/Android now offering free upgrades on an ongoing basis, Nokia will find it harder to simply say something is end of life as quickly as they have done before.
Jonathan Morris
Editor, What Mobile magazine & online"
If Nokia decides to appear to provide an upgrade, they will probably call PR1.2 Maemo6, and the next Maemo device will come with Maemo7. That's what they actually did with the N810.
this device Nokia n900 is capable of running maemo 6 os it is powerful enough with the arm cortex a8 processor 600mhz dual core plus graphic accelerate
maemo 6 will be on n900
Maemo 5 Os to maemo 6 Os qt and rube base will running on Nokia n900 fully Compatible
in the future maemo 7 maybe
maemo 6 will be compatible to resistive single with physical keyboard and capacitive for multi-touch
rumor as it that n920 will have capacitive screen with multi-touch
i personal prefer the n900 because physical keyboard and it small enough to fit in the pocket this phone is best Nokia ever (away from n95)
option touch screen only no, physical keyboard and multi-touch hell yah
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