View Full Version : Why is there still no true 770 competitor?
More gadgets are starting to have wifi, like the Archos player. The Mylo has come out too. But still, no one comes even close to the screen resolution of the 770, which is a key aspect of it's usability for web browsing. I wonder if the screen of this resolution is just too expensive or requires too much battery life?
i'm guessing they don't think there's a large market for mobile web browsing. The corporate suits think that IM-ing, mp3 capabilities, and video have an established mass appeal, so they're going where the money is instead of innovating.
tirabosco
2006-09-26, 18:42
I think the screen of the 770 is very expensive compared to a lower resolution one. Then there is the certain uncertainty surrounding devices like the 770, which IMO was launched by Nokia to test the waters regarding hardware and software (can I say that in english?). From above UMPCs and tablets are exerting pressure, they are still way too expensive for most peoples' needs and uses, but have a complete desktop environment with complete applications already known to most users to offer in exchange. Then there are a lot sophisticated phones/Pocket PCs with phone capability around, and nothing hinders their manufactures to increase the resolution a little to that of the 770 (of course they are also more expensive), and the connection to desktop apps is also better. Success is defined on a narrow line for these kind of devices. I myself would like to see the 770 getting cheaper and with improved X-forwarding capabilities (fullscreen) or even an NX client for it, and a better speaker, battery and audio and usb interfaces, as in my opinion it then would give a real good general purpose machine possible to adapt to many tasks that may arise.
Ah, and I already like it as it is now, since it does well what it is sold for, to act as an internet tablet with little weight and good autonomy. I would have liked if it was better suited for ebook reading in pdf format physical screen size is too small for it), but soon relatively cheap ebook readers from China based on e-ink screens will hit the market, at least I hope that they are cheap enough for me. :D
Bye, tira.
I don't think high-resolution screen are that expensive. You can get DVD players with a LCD screen having a resolution close to the one of the 770 for relatively little money nowadays...
Mike Cane
2006-09-26, 21:12
Why *should* there be a competitor? It's not like the 770 has had the blockbuster sales the initial (Palm) Pilot had.
Although UMPCs offer more, I've become very spoiled by PDAs and now the 770. I've fondled the Samsung Qs several times but compared to the 770, I find it too big and heavy.
To me, the closest competitor is the VEGA microPC followed by the massively-expensive Sony UX 1/280.
OS 2006 has made a big change in my attitude towards the 770.
Bromo33333
2006-12-07, 13:59
Depends on the definition of "true competitor" -
For me, price wise, something under US$700, that is WiFi capable, with maybe a touch screen or decent keypad and "mouse" substitute. I am not going to get wrapped up in the resolution, though, since that is a key reason a lot of people go for the Nokia, it isn't probably as critical for every Internet Tablet user.
The main competitors for this are:
1. Sony Mylo - Lockware, but probably really stable, screen worse, Skype is a plus
2. Archos 604 Wifi - Lockware, but has great Movie and Music Capability, Screen is worse, but Wifi and Opera Browser, some IM and such.
3. Pepper Pad 3 - Larger Screen, more expensive, HDD, Wifi and Open Source
4. Palm LifeDrive - more business oriented, but similar in spec to Nokia, screen worse, Lockware, too.
5.Others ... ?
Competitors but not direct (they are really specialized):
1. Sidekick 3 - more of a terminal and cell phone
2. iRex iLiad - Spinoff of Philips, eBook with screen using eInk (16 greay levels, but great contrast, low battery useage), rumor has it is touch screen and one can write on it wit stylus with good character recognition - purportedly also has WiFi and is open source or less locked down that other offerings.
3. Sony Reader - eBook, primitive, as locked as locked gets - typical Sony - but for the eBook set only. Won't do anything else, I don't think.
4. Any number of Smart Phones - allow surfing, some with WiFi, mostly lockware and limited by screen size and inputs. Someone could convince themselves this is "good enough" - especially the Blackberry set.
5. UMPC's - tend to be above $1k and more of a full fledged computer, so I am discounting them somewhat.
The Kojinsha minilaptop would fit your definition of a competitor, although I think of it more as a complement to the 770.
Bromo33333
2006-12-07, 15:25
The Kojinsha minilaptop would fit your definition of a competitor, although I think of it more as a complement to the 770.
I just looked it up - I think so. :)
i'm guessing they don't think there's a large market for mobile web browsing. The corporate suits think that IM-ing, mp3 capabilities, and video have an established mass appeal, so they're going where the money is instead of innovating.
Still true...the way the wind is blowing commercially, even your toaster oven will soon be able to play mp3s, display video and let you message your mom while you're waiting for that pizza pie.
But not a single truly mobile device that lets you surf the web with a decent screen....god, I hate the corporate marketing guys. I hate them so much.
christianhauck
2006-12-08, 16:54
The OLPC - and Nokia is even supporting them:
http://www.linuxworld.com/news/2006/102706-childrens-laptops.html?page=4
OLPC is getting indirect benefits from Nokia's 770 Internet Tablet, including the long-awaited ability to add input devices without restarting the GUI subsystem, which Nokia developer Daniel Stone added for the 770. "The input stuff on x has needed an overhaul for a decade and Daniel is finally doing that," Gettys says.
Nokia is also funding X Window System developer Matthew Allum to work on a display simulator, Xephyr. Xephyr is the basis for a Manu Cornet's Google Summer of Code work on simulating the CM1 display on a conventional monitor.
Blizzard anticipates that developer interest will grow even more with the next round of prototype machines, which will be complete laptops instead of just bare circuit boards. "There are really great spinoffs. We're going to build a lot of laptops and put them in the hands of a lot of people, " he says.
Just saw this report today. Looks like an interesting competitor to the N770/870.
7" screen with 800x480 resolution. AMD geode CPU @500 Mhz, 512 Megs and 40gig hdd. Oh yeah has a key board too :-). No info on when it will appear stateside.
kohjinsha Sub notebook (http://www.aving.net/usa/news/default.asp?mode=read&c_num=28390&C_Code=02&SP_Num=0)
DaScud
Milhouse
2006-12-12, 03:41
Just saw this report today. Looks like an interesting competitor to the N770/870.
Discussed here (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3528). :)
BanditRider
2006-12-12, 11:03
No touchscreen. What's the point of the tablet mode with the screen folded ontop of the keyboard?
On the sides on the screen are a joystick, mouse buttons and scroll buttons.
Reminds me of the S**y PSP,
where you also have to navigate with some keys.
Entering an URL was painful.
That was one of the main reasons to throw the PSP away,
and get a 770.
On a normal PC with a real keyboard,
there's no need for a touch screen IMHO,
but when the keyboard has been folded away,
a touch screen will soon be very useful...
Ray
Why is there still no true 770 competitor?
I think there are a lot of people that still don't "get it". I won't go back into that unwieldy discussion about how the 770 is or isn't like a UMPC, but I think it's safe to say that the Internet Tablet is very much a mobile Linux computer. Sure, it doesn't have a keyboard like many other similar mobile devices, but it does have a couple of realistic options for text input.
How are you gonna use that keyboard while standing or walking for example?
The full screen "thumb" virtual keyboard is perfect for situations like this.
And wouldn't you rather have a full sized keyboard for typing anything longer than a quick text message anyway?
That's where the USB and Bluetooth features shine. Connect to a "normal" sized keyboards for tasks that require them.
I think this is also one of the reasons Nokia was able to keep the cost of the device so low.
Secondly, mobile Linux devices are still fairly uncharted territory, and previous attempts have been either "half-baked" or just didn't gain the momentum needed to sustain growth of the given platform. In either case, manufacturers dropped support at the first sign of stagnancy.
I also think the time is just right for mobile Linux as competitors like Palm, Toshiba, Sony, HP, and others have moved out of the mobile computing landscape or just haven't moved at all.
Reminds me of the S**y PSP,
where you also have to navigate with some keys.
Entering an URL was painful.
I spend most browsing sessions without entering any URLs.
Surfing in tablet mode by clicking on links with the "joystick" mouse, and scrolling pages with the up/down buttons, certainly sounds like a reasonable proposition, not much different from the stylus+buttons of the 770...
But then you can twist the screen again and use the keyboard if you need to do text entry -- sort of like a big Sharp Zaurus.
The PSP drove me nuts when it came to entering URLs. The 770's better, but it has its flaws.
1) Keyboard. The Mylo has one, and it definitely make a difference.
2) Performance. I've used similarly powered PCs (Toshiba Libretto 110CT, for one,) and when pared down to the 770's functionality, they were snappier.
3) Email. I'm not even going to get into how much the 770's email client upsets me.
However, it's $350, has WiFi AND Bluetooth, and runs a ton of Linux apps, which is great. I have to ask, though, how often do you need to pair the 770 to your phone to do something that your phone can't already do on its own? Many BT-capable phones are acceptable IM clients in a pinch, WAP sites aren't great, but again, they can do the job. There just aren't a whole lot of uses for the 770 when there's no WiFi, which may justify the Mylo's lack of Bluetooth. Of course that allows some of the cost to go to the keyboard, even if that doesn't excuse the screen.
Simply enough, the 770's a little too much for what it can do comfortably. Trim out the BT, add a slide-out keyboard, ditch the bells and whistles and third-party app capability, and it's closer to a marketable device, but then few of us would own it. I adore the hackability, as it's rapidly become my digital Swiss Army Knife, but while I'm okay with a Swiss Army Knife, other people just want a decent pair of scissors.
As for audio, it can't hold enough MP3s for my tastes, nor is it trivially simple to dump video onto it. (Yes, I can drag and drop, but my iPod syncs automatically, whether iTunes is loaded or not.) It's not an ideal PMP unless it can hold a 1.8" HDD, or support something closer to 8GB of flash. It's not a perfect mobile web browser for my forum-hopping needs unless it has a solid integrated keyboard. The control layout isn't great for games, for that matter. It can do all of these things, but it doesn't necessarily do them well.
It does, however, start up VERY quickly, sip very little power, and pack a hell of a lot of display in a very portable package. I can't carry a Libretto with me at all times, or a Vega UMPC, or the Kohjinsha submini laptop. I can, however, bust out the 770 on a whim, check on gmail, zip through a few forums, and even stream some audio in no time flat.
If I were less of a geek, I wouldn't bother with any of this. Luckily for Nokia, I'm exactly that much of a geek, and have no problem looking past the obvious warts of the 770 to take advantage of what I *can* do with it. Unfortunately for Nokia, I don't think there are enough geeks to support the device without some major updates in the next iteration of the hardware.
c_legaspi
2007-01-03, 23:07
sony - a true competitor
Milhouse
2007-01-04, 02:24
There just aren't a whole lot of uses for the 770 when there's no WiFi, which may justify the Mylo's lack of Bluetooth.
Totally not true for me - I use Bluetooth dial up networking to surf the web on the move all the time (eg. on the way into the office, settling arguments in the pub etc.)
A device without Bluetooth is a non starter for me. WiFi hotspots are plentiful, but they're all run by different ISPs requiring upfront accounts and you can bet when you need to connect to the net, you're going to be near a hotspot for which you don't have an account.
Until the advent of city-wide free WiFi (I'm in the UK), when I'm not at home it's actually WiFi that is irrelevant and not Bluetooth. :)
Not really sure why the Mylo lacks Bluetooth - perhaps because it's aimed at teenagers who will have access to WiFi at home and at school/college?
I can't wait for you all to see the facts on the new device. :)
Rocketman
2007-01-04, 08:21
You sir are a big tease! Put up or shut up! ;)
Justnpeace
2007-01-04, 10:06
What about OQO.
Visit their site at http://www.oqo.com
It is 3 to 4 times the price tought. ouch...
JP
What about OQO.
Visit their site at http://www.oqo.com
It is 3 to 4 times the price tought. ouch...
JP
True, but 1GHz process, 30GB hard drive, 512MB DDR RAM. Not sure that justifies the $800 more in price, but it is a nice concept. Big drawback is the OS that comes with it ;)!
Totally not true for me - I use Bluetooth dial up networking to surf the web on the move all the time (eg. on the way into the office, settling arguments in the pub etc.)
--snip--
Not really sure why the Mylo lacks Bluetooth - perhaps because it's aimed at teenagers who will have access to WiFi at home and at school/college?
You're definitely right, but that's not really relevant to the Mylo, or to an increasing number of phones with gradually improving web browsers. Opera Mobile definitely helps close that gap, of course. For you, it helps, but over time, BT for websurfing is probably going to become less relevant as phones gain higher resolution displays and better web browsers. If you have access to a HotSpot, you use the Mylo. If not, just fall back to your phone.
(Personally, I much prefer the 770 over Bluetooth to using my phone, but that's also connected to the lack of integrated offline bookmarks.)
However, if you want a depressing tidbit, think about the Mylo. It's got a 320x240 display, a slide-out keyboard, and a slot for a memory card, along with WiFi. So does the T-Mobile MDA/Cingular 8125 and the PPC-6700, and they have Bluetooth, cellular, *and* media playback capability, along with Exchange integration! Drop the WiFi, and the Treo 680 has a 320x320 display!
The Mylo is effectively a crippled smartphone. In its efforts to enter the same space as the 770, it ended up taking on the form of a smartphone with none of the bells and whistles. I somewhat understand where they were going with this, but by separating the Mylo from any overlapping devices, they missed the boat on a unique opportunity for convergence.
Totally not true for me - I use Bluetooth dial up networking to surf the web on the move all the time (eg. on the way into the office, settling arguments in the pub etc.)
A device without Bluetooth is a non starter for me. WiFi hotspots are plentiful, but they're all run by different ISPs requiring upfront accounts and you can bet when you need to connect to the net, you're going to be near a hotspot for which you don't have an account.
Until the advent of city-wide free WiFi (I'm in the UK), when I'm not at home it's actually WiFi that is irrelevant and not Bluetooth. :)
My situation exactly ! I use Wifi only at home, or when visiting friends and family ; very seldom do I find a usable free hotspot. The rest of the time it's EDGE + BT...
I didn't even have a mobile phone, a data plan, or a working knowledge of BT before I got the 770... and my phone still does more work as a modem than as a voice device :-)
You sir are a big tease! Put up or shut up! ;)
You're right, but I can't, sorry. I may have said too much already!
orbitalcomp
2007-01-04, 23:48
You're right, but I can't, sorry. I may have said too much already!
Will Nokia have more to say at CES next week? You can at least tell us that... :)
If so, I'll be trying to hunt down their booth...
Milhouse
2007-01-05, 12:58
If so, I'll be trying to hunt down their booth...
Please hunt down their booth anyway as I'd like to know if the GPS built-in to the upcoming N95 phone can be used with the 770 (and it's successor) over bluetooth! :)
Will Nokia have more to say at CES next week? You can at least tell us that... :)
If so, I'll be trying to hunt down their booth...
I think enough info has come out for you to reach your own (correct) conclusion. ;)
Well, another CES season is at it's close, and IMO there's still no true competitor . None of the devices have a resolution that even comes within striking distance of the Nokia. And then there are the speed issues that have been reported on items like the Archos 604 wifi and also on the new iPhone.
Personally I would like to see some competition, but there must be some hurdle that just keeps it from happening. Perhaps cost/power issues associated with such a high rez screen.
Personally I would like to see some competition, but there must be some hurdle that just keeps it from happening. Perhaps cost/power issues associated with such a high rez screen.
Ya, its because people who have tried to surf the internet on other similar devices were sorely disappointed and most probably don't believe the Nokia's screen resolution actually makes surfing the internet usable on such a small device, thus the lack of customer demand, thus the lack of competition.
funtasticguy
2007-01-11, 05:22
Well, another CES season is at it's close, and IMO there's still no true competitor . None of the devices have a resolution that even comes within striking distance of the Nokia.
I was actually surprised there weren't other devices announced at CES comparable to the Nokia N800. The closest I believe is Cowon's Q5. Here are the specs as stated by dapreview.net:
o screen resolution of 800 x 480
o 5-inch, 16.7m touch screen
o 30GB hard drive
o Win CE 5.0-based
o supports MPEG4 (A)SP, WMV, MP3, WMA (DRM), WAV, BMP, JPEG, PNG, Ogg, FLAC, APE, AC-3
o TV-out
o FM radio + recorder
o USB-host
o internal speakers
o supports WiFi, Bluetooth and HSDPA
o small form factor
"As a result of all of this functionality, price is expected to be rather steep - some 600 USD in Korea, although it's likely that some features can be stripped off according to continental standards, possibly lowering price levels here and there."
No release date announced.
If Cowon successfully pulls this off, Nokia N800 might have some serious competition!
Hey, I stand corrected!!! That will be quite good competition!! I'll be looking forward to it's release.
Not really a competitor (because of the price), but the OQO 02 looked really nice and probably everything the first version should have been.
AkiraXXX
2007-01-11, 12:16
Why is there still no true 770 competitor?
I think you need to define your terms a bit more precisely. In what way do you mean there is no competitor? A Linux-based handheld? A portable Internet browser? Etc...
My Pocket PC, for all its faults, still runs rings around most similar devices. Most people know these features, but I'll kick out a few just so everyone knows where I coming from:
True 640x480 web browser (in either portrait or landscape mode)
Built in wifi/bluetooth
1 SDIO slot and 1 CF slot
Touch screen
Accelerated graphics
Capable of Windows Terminal Services/Remote Desktop
Built-in voice recorder/microphone
Apps for everything under the sun
I won't bore everyone with the things it can do because it pretty much does everything. Rather, I'll say what it can't do to keep the list shorter:
- Does not do video for current version of Flash (You Tube, etc.)
- Browsers are not where I want them to be, but are still good.
- The OS hasn't matured quickly enough. A new release is pending.
- Needs an Ipod-like storage capacity
- Camera must be purchased separately (which I guess is best for those who dont' want one)
I routinely use it for the common things (calendar, email, browsing, memos, todo list, etc) But I also use if for:
- Skype calls. $15 per year for Skype Out and I call anyone, anywhere for an unlimited time.
- Handwriting recognition software allows me to use an alternative to Grafitti-style input or pop-up keyboard.
- Highly skinable desktop
- Real arcade games and emulators
- Create and import Word/Excel/Powerpoint files.
- Remote control over various PCs in my life via LogMeIn and file transfer via Avvenu.
- Good MP3 player
- Watch movies in most formats in good (640x480) resolution and speed.
- Run all my old, familiar Palm apps in the Palm emulator at better than full speed.
- Troubleshoot wireless issues at work with my wifi signal evaluation app
- Full internet browsing.
- Stream live TV from my home to anywhere I am with wifi using Slingbox (while being able to control the satellite box remotely as well).
- Streaming audio/radio
It goes on.
I'm no fanboy. I'm excited about the new Nokia (although I think it is butt ugly compared to the 770). But I don't think saying there is no competition is fair unless you qualify your terms more. There is a lot of room for improvement in the Axim, but that can be said for all devices. They all have their place. I love the 770's display, but when it comes to features and software, it has some catching up to do. I hope the 800 does that. I'm eager for it to succeed.
I assume your Axim is an x50v or x51v? These are the best Pocket PCs on the market in my mind. And if you want a PDA and can get over any MS bias then it is the way to go. Great bit of kit.
However 640x480 still doesn't cut it on web pages. Pocket IE is average at best, and some 3rd party browsers are better but still nowhere compared to browsing on the Nokia.
I use my 770 as a convenient web browser, in fact for me it is the internet tablet described on the box, I don't want much else out of it, and because of that there is nothing that comes close on the market without paying a fortune for something like a Sony UX or an OQO.
Of course there is no reason why the 770 and N800 couldn't become a competitive PDA too if Nokia really wanted that to happen...
AkiraXXX
2007-01-11, 15:36
I assume your Axim is an x50v or x51v?...
However 640x480 still doesn't cut it on web pages. Pocket IE is average at best, and some 3rd party browsers are better but still nowhere compared to browsing on the Nokia.
Yes, x51v
I totally agree with your statement that the 640x480 screen isn't in the same league as the Nokia's screen, but the browsing experience is better. The 2700g Graphics chip with dedicated memory plus a CPU speed of 624MHz helps. 800x480 is fine unless you don't have enough memory or processing power to render the images. :( I really hope that the 800 will be a better web experience.
I also agree that IE is not the best browser. Opera makes the experience much, much better. It handles just about every page I care about except for Flash video/games. Netfront is pretty good, but I prefer Opera.
Mozilla was working on the Minimo browser, but I've not seen much work lately. I was really hoping for a "Pocket Firefox" browser since I use Firefox as my default browser for both my Linux and Windows machines.
I am eager to hear about people's experiences with the 800 as time goes on. It looks like a nice device.
The review below says that the 640x480 is taken advantage of at that full resolution due to some Windows Mobile 5 implementation.
http://www.mobiletechreview.com/Dell-Axim-X51v.htm
Perhaps the browser still feels more responsive than on the 770/800, but it's also wireless b, which limits range. Based on my recollection I don't get a full b-connection everywhere in my house.
So for me, the Axim is close to a competitor, but I still wouldn't call it competition. That Cowon Q5 looks like it will be the first one to really go the distance, and it will be strong competition since it's a full media player. Can't wait!!
Milhouse
2007-01-11, 22:11
I totally agree with your statement that the 640x480 screen isn't in the same league as the Nokia's screen, but the browsing experience is better. The 2700g Graphics chip with dedicated memory plus a CPU speed of 624MHz helps. 800x480 is fine unless you don't have enough memory or processing power to render the images. :(
I'm sorry, and no offence meant, that's just nonsense. Browsing on a 640x480 screen will always result in a less satisfying experience than browsing on an 800x480 screen. The presence or lack of hardware acceleration makes no difference to a web browser. Also the 624Mhz X-Scale PXA270 CPU in the Axim is probably less powerful than that in the N800 as the PXA270 is based on ARM 5 architecture and has no floating point support. Given the choice I'd take the 330Mhz OMAP2420 CPU in the N800 over the 624Mhx X-Scale PXA270, anyday.
I own an iPAQ HX4700 which is a VGA 640x480 WinCE device with h/w acceleration and it doesn't come close the browsing enjoyment I get from a 770 (and as of yesterday, a N800). Browsing on even the HX4700 is a horrible experience once you have browsed the web on a 770/N800.
So on that basis there is still no competition to the N800, or even the 770. The Cowon quoted above has a similar spec but runs WinCE and has a hard disk, so while in terms of browsing experience it may come close (or even exceed) the 770/N800 it's likely to be heavy, large and expensive - no thanks!
I really hope that the 800 will be a better web experience.
It is. Most definately. Without a shadow of a doubt.
I totally agree with your statement that the 640x480 screen isn't in the same league as the Nokia's screen, but the browsing experience is better. The 2700g Graphics chip with dedicated memory plus a CPU speed of 624MHz helps. 800x480 is fine unless you don't have enough memory or processing power to render the images. :( I really hope that the 800 will be a better web experience.
Just wanted to say, after some playing with my N800 today, that the brwosing experience is much better, particularly in regard to what you say above.
On the 770 pages with lots of bit pictures would cause problems.
But on the 800 this isn't the case. Take the N800 picture review linked on the homepage of this site. The 770 struggled with it and even once loaded didn't scroll through it well. on the N800 it loaded quickly and scrolled smoothly.
Very satisfying!
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