View Full Version : Maemo 5 to 6 upgrade path
Hi chaps,
Does anyone reckon that the upcoming N900 device will support OTA updates and being upgraded from 5 to 6 ? Some people imply it will, others say it wont, some say it will be up to the telco you get it from.
What are your thoughts ?
Olly
apt-get dist-upgrade -> only wants a connection so I think it should be possible if it is supported.
Wow, upgrades will be as easy as apt-get ? Nice.
apt-get dist-upgrade -> only wants a connection so I think it should be possible if it is supported.
That is probably how it would work technically. But I think Nokia hasn't yet said whether they will support N900 with Maemo 6. (IIRC, in some of the interview videos I've seen here the comment was "We don't know yet")
It depends whether these updates will be available in official repos, and whether the hardware will be able to run the next Maemo incarnation. I personally don't know if either is true.
Yeah. It's how I understood the update process to work though. simply apt-get upgrade etc.
As for 5 -> 6 don't know don't care will cross the bridge once I get there.
But I think Nokia hasn't yet said whether they will support N900 with Maemo 6. (IIRC, in some of the interview videos I've seen here the comment was "We don't know yet")
Which is the same thing they were saying about Fremantle on N8x0 last year, not exactly encouraging.
Which is the same thing they were saying about Fremantle on N8x0 last year, not exactly encouraging.
Yep. Hopefully this question will be answered soon. This is an area where Apple is doing a lot better, making new OS releases available for also the older iPhones. This means developers can always develop for the latest OS version but still have the whole existing base of devices available.
HangLoose
2009-09-14, 12:02
Yep. Hopefully this question will be answered soon. This is an area where Apple is doing a lot better, making new OS releases available for also the older iPhones. This means developers can always develop for the latest OS version but still have the whole existing base of devices available.
I don't like the way Apple does business but. I agree 100% with you...
And specially if Nokia wants to sell the device as a "mobile computer". Then let me update to the latest OS... Cos otherwise it is just a cell phone.
Look at what has changed with Maemo5 that can't be run on N810. While some software could still be used on N810, HW features of N900 are in use in many applications. You would not have a proper camera application with appropriate image quality, as much of work is split between both HW and software implementations. In order to support 640x480 camera in N810, a full software image processing stack would be needed but end result would not be good anyway as front-end camera is simply not the one for photographic purposes.
There are many examples like that, including many optimizations for performance of multimedia which are not applicable to N810 hardware (Neon-specific).
As very early conclusion I would say in case some new functionality is dependant on HW features, it is almost impossible to reliably allow it supported on previous products. If such a "past generation device" project would be created, it essentially means split in both functionality and UI experience, i.e. doubled effort.
Now, real question is how to scope proper content that can be supported on "past generation device"? This exercise as an input into effort estimation is probably worth to perform.
Thesandlord
2009-09-14, 14:19
Once again, Apple is better than Nokia here. All their devices run the latest firmware, even if it means less features. For example, the 3G and 2G can't shoot video.
This is basically what mer is.
apple dont change the OS they just do firmware upgrades what has new features and then market it as a new OS when in fact the OS dont change they jusy add new features.
nokia 100% support the exact same thing across all there symbian and Maemo range, but as far as going from one OS to another nobody knows if this will happen from 5 to 6
attila77
2009-09-14, 14:30
Yep. Hopefully this question will be answered soon. This is an area where Apple is doing a lot better, making new OS releases available for also the older iPhones. This means developers can always develop for the latest OS version but still have the whole existing base of devices available.
We'll see how long they will be able to carry that baggage before it becomes a burden ('cause that it certainly will become, sooner or later). The biggest problem of the N8x0 is probably the lack of powervr drivers. Without them, the backporting of the whole dashboard-taskswitcher-launcher paradigm of Maemo 5 would IMHO be an excercise in futility.
Once again, Apple is better than Nokia here. All their devices run the latest firmware, even if it means less features. For example, the 3G and 2G can't shoot video.
This is basically what mer is.
Since we dont know if the n900 can run M6 I think its a little early to be calling Apple better yet.
Also You wouldnt run windows Vista on 5 year old machine. there is a law of diminishing returns for running new OS's on older hardware. The only thing that allows Apple to do so is the fact that none of the iphone HW is more than 2+ years old.
We'll see how long they will be able to carry that baggage before it becomes a burden ('cause that it certainly will become, sooner or later). The biggest problem of the N8x0 is probably the lack of powervr drivers. Without them, the backporting of the whole dashboard-taskswitcher-launcher paradigm of Maemo 5 would IMHO be an excercise in futility.
What interests me is why Nokia won't implement these drivers in Maemo 4 and offer it as an OS upgrade? Since those are the same PowerVR processors in both Omap2 and Omap3, it shouldn't be an issue. The only reason could be some sort of licensing deal.
Yep. Hopefully this question will be answered soon. This is an area where Apple is doing a lot better, making new OS releases available for also the older iPhones. This means developers can always develop for the latest OS version but still have the whole existing base of devices available.
Next year is going to be interesting for iPhone OS upgrades:
1. iPhone 2G and 3G will be past their supported period (2 years contract).
2. They will have 2 1st gen phones (arm11?) and 2 2nd gen phones (cortex a8 or above, which is powerful enough to multitask).
I think that's when they'll release their own multitasking flavor in the new OS and either: stop or split support for the older phones.
Stskeeps
2009-09-14, 14:57
What interests me is why Nokia won't implement these drivers in Maemo 4 and offer it as an OS upgrade? Since those are the same PowerVR processors in both Omap2 and Omap3, it shouldn't be an issue. The only reason could be some sort of licensing deal.
No, not same PoverVR. MBX vs SGX. That said, there is work being done from Nokia's side to get the community MBX drivers.
No, not same PoverVR. MBX vs SGX. That said, there is work being done from Nokia's side to get the community MBX drivers.
Yeah, I should have googled better before saying something like that. Just realized myself that these two are not the same...
attila77
2009-09-14, 15:01
What interests me is why Nokia won't implement these drivers in Maemo 4 and offer it as an OS upgrade? Since those are the same PowerVR processors in both Omap2 and Omap3, it shouldn't be an issue. The only reason could be some sort of licensing deal.
You hit the nail on the head - it's a licensing issue (as the drivers are closed, much like nvidia et al). There used to be a page in the wiki about the effort of getting these drivers 'to the people' but I can't find it...
The biggest problem of the N8x0 is probably the lack of powervr drivers. Without them, the backporting of the whole dashboard-taskswitcher-launcher paradigm of Maemo 5 would IMHO be an excercise in futility.
True, but that's just a red herring. The visual effects are eye candy for the 30" demo, and thankfully Nokia have acknowledged that even N900 users will want to turn them off after the novelty wears off and provided the means to do so.
Other than that I don't see anything important in Fremantle that couldn't run on N8x0. Obviously there would be no bouncing ball games and the lack of certain peripheral devices like accelerometers, cellular modem and camera mean certain features wouldn't work, but no real showstoppers. One may argue about available RAM and CPU power, but if Diablo could be made usable on the 770 then a Fremantle based system could surely run adequately on the N8x0s. IMHO it's just a matter of available resources and all the other arguments are just handwaving.
On the other hand, it seems that every time I turn around I find out that a feature I'd been using has been dropped from Fremantle (today's example: Jabber MUC) so I'm starting to become less and less excited about running Fremantle on any device and pinning my hopes on Diablo community updates taking off at some point instead.
In order to support 640x480 camera in N810, a full software image processing stack would be needed but end result would not be good anyway as front-end camera is simply not the one for photographic purposes.
Even though the camera is crappy, it may still provide a fun opportunity to do stuff like these (http://www.qaiku.com/home/ihmis-suski/show/1de8d79437939828d7911de9d96bbd3106d244a244a/) travel (http://www.qaiku.com/home/ihmis-suski/show/1de8bfee6f462528bfe11de929eb3b7edf9a6aca6ac/) snapshots (http://www.qaiku.com/home/ihmis-suski/show/1de8ba986daff348ba911deb01e79f0a10df74ef74e/) on Qaiku:
http://static.qaiku.com/blobs/1de/8bf/ee6/1de8bfee6fef3528bfe11de929eb3b7edf9a6aca6ac.jpeg
Speaking of which, will it be possible to add other photo sharing services to Maemo 5? Would be cool to be able to post "Picture Qaikus" directly from the device (without the clunky email workaround (http://www.qaiku.com/channels/show/Qaiku/view/1de45f92b29c1ac45f911deac426d8d6fa58a398a39/)).
Speaking of which, will it be possible to add other photo sharing services to Maemo 5? Would be cool to be able to post "Picture Qaikus" directly from the device (without the clunky email workaround (http://www.qaiku.com/channels/show/Qaiku/view/1de45f92b29c1ac45f911deac426d8d6fa58a398a39/)).
Sharing interface is pluggable. There is already plugin for Pixelpipe available for beta (see video on Youtube). Doing Qaiku plugin wouldn't be hard.
GeneralAntilles
2009-09-14, 15:39
True, but that's just a red herring. The visual effects are eye candy for the 30" demo, and thankfully Nokia have acknowledged that even N900 users will want to turn them off after the novelty wears off and provided the means to do so.
Turning off the transition effects doesn't turn off the OpenGL requirement.
Once again, Apple is better than Nokia here. All their devices run the latest firmware, even if it means less features. For example, the 3G and 2G can't shoot video.
No, they don't. The equivalent here is having a 4th generation iPod. It can't run the OS of the iPod Touch, it just doesn't have the hardware to pull it off.
Turning off the transition effects doesn't turn off the OpenGL requirement.
Maybe not (I'm not too familiar with the wm internals) but it's not a hard requirement. Mer manages just fine without it.
texaslabrat
2009-09-14, 16:20
Once again, Apple is better than Nokia here. All their devices run the latest firmware, even if it means less features. For example, the 3G and 2G can't shoot video.
This is basically what mer is.
If running the latest firmware like this:
http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/09/09/14/1321236/IPhone-31-Update-Disables-Tethering
means "better" I'll stick with substandard, thanks :p
GeneralAntilles
2009-09-14, 16:22
Maybe not (I'm not too familiar with the wm internals) but it's not a hard requirement. Mer manages just fine without it.
It is a hard requirement if you want to use Hildon Desktop from Fremantle. :)
It is a hard requirement if you want to use Hildon Desktop from Fremantle. :)
Is it also if you simply want to run (I mean, compile to the same api) applications?
GeneralAntilles
2009-09-14, 22:24
Is it also if you simply want to run (I mean, compile to the same api) applications?
Hildon Desktop is the only thing using Clutter as far as I'm aware.
marko232987
2009-09-21, 15:31
this is the most important question for n900 buyers becouse it is not known that maemo 5 will be interest for developers because maemo 6 comes for 12 monts.if someone have information about this share ??????
zkyevolved
2009-09-21, 19:43
this is the most important question for n900 buyers becouse it is not known that maemo 5 will be interest for developers because maemo 6 comes for 12 monts.if someone have information about this share ??????
I certainly hope we can upgrade. And you make a very valid point. If Maemo 6 is going to come out very soon (12 months), that means that most developers won't REALLY invest too much time into programming for an OS that's already received it's expiration date. In my opinion, I think it will be supported. the N900 is a top of the line product. It has a high resolution screen, camera, fast processor, tons of ram.
I'm sorry, but my only REAL experience is with Blackberry. Look at the 8100, 8800 and 8300 series. Those models are YEARS old, and they have gotten updates from 4.1 to 4.2, to 4.5 and now to 5.0 very soon. 5.0 is the end of their lifeline but they've survived many years upgrading with 64 megs of ram and a low res screen and a crappy 1-2 mpx camera (if that, note 8800 series which doesn't sport any camera).
I can't wait for this device :)
ossipena
2009-09-22, 10:12
I certainly hope we can upgrade. And you make a very valid point. If Maemo 6 is going to come out very soon (12 months), that means that most developers won't REALLY invest too much time into programming for an OS that's already received it's expiration date. In my opinion, I think it will be supported. the N900 is a top of the line product. It has a high resolution screen, camera, fast processor, tons of ram.
I'm sorry, but my only REAL experience is with Blackberry. Look at the 8100, 8800 and 8300 series. Those models are YEARS old, and they have gotten updates from 4.1 to 4.2, to 4.5 and now to 5.0 very soon. 5.0 is the end of their lifeline but they've survived many years upgrading with 64 megs of ram and a low res screen and a crappy 1-2 mpx camera (if that, note 8800 series which doesn't sport any camera).
I can't wait for this device :)
if developers migrate to qt, why not developing for maemo5?!? 12 months testing and then final app to maemo6 & possibly symbian too.
attila77
2009-09-22, 10:54
I'm sorry to say, but unfortunately most people are pretty clueless as to what all this GTK <-> Qt switch means and how it impacts applications/compatibility. All they hear is 'there will be a new version of Maemo' and then their buyer's remorse gland kicks in, when in fact both Maemo 5 and 6 will run BOTH GTK and Qt stuff so application portability between the two is fairly good.
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