Glad there is no universal portrait support [Archive] - maemo.org

kanzlr

2009-09-25, 14:06

this is a thread in response to this:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=32050

Screen rotation introduces a lot of problems, and I would like to state why I am very happy that there is no screen rotation on the N900. I say this from the standpoint of a developer AND user:

screen rotation introduces a lot of extra work in the UI department. I've written Android apps before, and you basically have to design two UIs. You have to test two UIs and you have to think about how you integrate them in your app to play well.

testing = 30% of the whole development cycle. if I have to increase my testing twofold (or maybe not by a factor of two, but still) I have to put more work into the whole project.
Designing the UI takes quite some work. If I have to do it twice, it is twice as much work.

and from a usability perspective, it does one of the worst things you can do: it creates an inconsistent user experience.

we all are geeks, and we like features and things to show off, but auto screen rotation is not the WTG.

the Android G1 does it at least right in the usability department, as it only rotates when you slide open the keyboard. that makes sense for the user. But the Palm Pre is even better here in not disrupting the user experience and usability.

so, please, no autorotation, no rotation at all, thanks.

zerojay

2009-09-25, 14:09

this is a thread in response to this:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=32050

If this thread is in response to that thread, why didn't you just post it there?

kanishou

2009-09-25, 14:14

If this thread is in response to that thread, why didn't you just post it there?

To quote from that thread:

Read the thread title. PLEASE DON'T post here if you DON'T have an interest in having ASR on the N900 in the future. You're free to make a thread in support of NOT allowing it, but I'm trying to gather supporters, not dissidents.

zerojay

2009-09-25, 14:34

anidel

2009-09-25, 14:41

Well, you don't have to support auto rotation in your program if you don't want to.

I will as I think my app can make a good use of it.

I believe Nokia made a good choice of not rotating the desktop automatically in the N900.

Aniello

romanianusa

2009-09-25, 14:54

I wouldn't want my phone to rotate only when i pull out my keyboard..that is annoying. I want it to rotate EVEN when i am NOT pulling out the keyboard since there are times you don't use the keyboard at all.

GeraldKo

2009-09-25, 15:10

I think AUTO-rotate is a gimmick. And, since it occasionally rotates when you don't want it to, it's more of a nuisance than having to click a button to rotate the screen.

It shoudn't be mandatory, and I think the fixed desktop is good as it helps establish that rotation in apps is not mandatory, or even expected.

There are apps for which non-automatic rotation is important, and they can be coded that way, as they were for earlier Maemo devices. For example, FBReader and picture viewers.

On my N800 I used to have screen rotation. I uninstalled it. I don't miss it.

qgil

2009-09-25, 15:14

mrojas

2009-09-25, 15:14

mrojas

2009-09-25, 15:25

While I'm not against having rotation as a feature (even though I would rarely use it), what I am against is having Nokia resources and community programmers work towards "making stuff turn" instead of working on more new applications, bug fixes and new ideas. That's my main issue.

Fair enough.

For a lot of people, wider portrait mode support counts as a new idea, even a bug fix.

You have the right the oppose a feature you won't use, but consider this: it is a feature that would improve the usability of Maemo for a lot of people, and help to make it more popular.

I don't have numbers, but I have also seen people here and there commenting that no full portrait mode support is a deal breaker (me included).

zerojay

2009-09-25, 15:34

You have the right the oppose a feature you won't use...

As I said, I'm not opposing the feature at all and have even been trying to help you guys get what you want if you haven't been paying attention... even though it's a feature I won't use.

mykenyc

2009-09-25, 15:35

For a lot of people, wider portrait mode support counts as a new idea, even a bug fix.

You have the right the oppose a feature you won't use, but consider this: it is a feature that would improve the usability of Maemo for a lot of people, and help to make it more popular.

I don't have numbers, but I have also seen people here and there commenting that no full portrait mode support is a deal breaker (me included).

Well for me since the N900 would be used in a since as a laptop replacement since i was going to get a net-book using it as is would suit me right as a "laptop feel".

marko232987

2009-09-25, 16:07

people we are talking here about phone.how to write a mesage if your other hand is busy not a chance to do that portret mode is need of users because you cant hold device vith 2 hand all the time,that can be inposible in some situations

christexaport

2009-09-25, 21:54

Wow. I'm somewhat saddened by this thread, since it sounds as if there is a desire to garner support for ignoring a large faction of users. I don't think you fully understand what is being asked for, or the effects it will have on app development. However, it highlights the miscommunication that must have taken place.

I DO NOT support all apps having portriat support, either. I think a developer should decide how best his app should be used. I just think the base UI of the device should feature it. I hope that makes sense. The N97 has ASR, but plenty of apps are fixed to one orientation, including Mobitubia, a Forum Nokia Champion creation. So fixed orientation in certain apps is a good thing. Those that don't like landscape could choose emTube or other apps. And development of the 5th Edition isn't as time consuming UI wise because of multiple orientation support since the developer can still choose.

I believe we can all have a device we want. I only support choice, and your opinion matters too. We'll see what happens. I hope Maemo 6 doesn't lose a user, because Nokia seems intent to include ASR there, but I think you'll be pleased with the implementation.

Texrat

2009-09-25, 22:21

Chris I think you're misreading the overall gist.

christexaport

2009-09-26, 00:53

Chris I think you're misreading the overall gist.

I'd agree if I hadn't been so discouraged and beaten down by senior members of this forum about this issue. The fact this thread was made "in response to mine" just shows how I've faced opposition to seeking a solution on adding ASR to Fremantle. I've shared ugly words with most of the posters in this thread and a few others. Let's just say I'm not very welcome in Maemo.org, and I'm not the only one feeling the hate. This ain't Symbian territory, and I've been made aware.

I want a feature added that won't affect anyone not interested in using it. But a large faction of the voices expressing opposition to my endeavours and disdain at my methods for drawing support are developers and experience Maemo users that seem to think I'm trying to ruin the perfectly good OS, saying it will make app development harder for them, and I should stick to Symbian, blah blah blah...

For all of Maemo's agility and ability, there is an impediment to progress that doesn't suit the old guard around here. People are rude, mean, discouraging, and generally not very willing to help or support new features that don't fit their usage case. There's a big Us vs. Them mentality I've never seen in any Nokia OS community.

Oh, Symbian, save me... I miss you. We hardly had this attitude in our communities ever. Maybe I will be forced to wait for Symbian^4...

JayOnThaBeat

2009-09-26, 01:15

The fact this thread was made "in response to mine" just shows how I've faced opposition to seeking a solution on adding ASR to Fremantle.

Sorry, but you missed the fact that the creation of this thread is showing you much respect.

You politely asked that no "dissidents" post in the thread you started. You were kindly obliged.

:)

christexaport

2009-09-26, 01:38

But why are there dissidents at all? And why would developers speak against user requests? We depend on them to put our ideas into tangible solutions, but it isn't easy to engage them. I don't know how things are done here, but no one is quick to help show me. Just rudeness and conflict, discouragement, and obstacles. I don't see this in the iPhone, RIM, xda, or Symbian forums, just here. This should be fun, but it ain't! It makes me want to go back to doing music full time and leaving this headache to the young cats.

ASR wouldn't affect those that don't want to use it, so why say anything at all? If he really respected me, I wouldn't have verbally jousted with him and most of the developers on this forum that think of themselves. This isn't open source spirit, this is a train wreck! We MUST improve this forum's mission and attitude towards new users or we will not see much success.

I'm speaking from experience. I learned this lesson in our own Symbian forums first hand, and I had to repair many relations to correct it. I don't see this forum as helpful for anyone but the hardcore guys. A big shame, but the truth. I've been ready to choke a few guys here a few times, and my reputation with loving mobiles and helping in designing new concepts for apps and features has always been well received until now. I'm not very well liked here, and maybe that has some to do with me, but not all. I must go to war to get help on anything here. Why is this?

christexaport

2009-09-26, 01:43

Chris I think you're misreading the overall gist.

how so, bro? You're one of the best speakers/writers I know. Explain in that great way you always do. I'd love to see another side to this.

christexaport

2009-09-26, 01:46

I dunno man.

You can't silence them all. Just be glad they're not in your thread.

(I personally think SR in Diablo < sh*t, but as long as ASR is disable-able, it wouldn't bother me in the least)
I expect a few, but this attitude is rampant. Its a cancer to these forums, and I'd hate this to ruin Maemo. Were my N900 not free, I'd stick to Symbian, but I'm not here for me, but my community, so I'll take one for the team.

But I won't be attending any Maemo conferences. Might have to punch some of these rude guys. Just not very nice atmosphere. I take my community for granted.

And I'm glad you see that ASR won't bother you if you don't want it. They know it , too, but think it will make app development harder. What a lazy attitude..

christexaport

2009-09-26, 01:47

but I'll go back to my thread. sorry for the hijack.

zerojay

2009-09-26, 02:42

I expect a few, but this attitude is rampant. Its a cancer to these forums, and I'd hate this to ruin Maemo. Were my N900 not free, I'd stick to Symbian, but I'm not here for me, but my community, so I'll take one for the team.

But I won't be attending any Maemo conferences. Might have to punch some of these rude guys. Just not very nice atmosphere. I take my community for granted.

And I'm glad you see that ASR won't bother you if you don't want it. They know it , too, but think it will make app development harder. What a lazy attitude..

Chris, relax.

You're passionate about Maemo and that's awesome. You know what you want and are pushing to get it. All of that is good. I think you're just being a bit thin-skinned and impatient about things. Don't take what a few people are saying so personally.

At this point, I think we'll see full rotation support for most of the built-in apps in a later version of the firmware, maybe a few months after release. And even if that doesn't happen, I'm pretty sure plenty of community developers are already working on making rotation for their apps happen.

Don't let yourself get discouraged so quickly, try to let some of those rude responses roll off your back and keep pushing for the features you want regardless.

(Edit: When I wrote this, I hadn't seen any other posts yet. Yeah, some of that stuff was definitely out of line.)

kryptoniankid17

2009-09-26, 02:46

im not glad. even its more work for developers it will push maemo and the n900 further. u need to be challenged to evolve.

ysss

2009-09-26, 03:04

And watch where you push. Sometimes it sounds like borderline whining..

Let's focus on channeling the energies to something productive..

sjgadsby

2009-09-26, 03:19

I'd love to see another side to this.

Here's (roughly) how I see what's transpired:

Information on the N900 and Maemo 5's UI leaks out. System-wide ASR is conspicuously absent.
The existing Maemo community isn't overly shocked or horrified, after all:
Nokia hasn't shown great interest in adding rotation support to Maemo in the past (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3519). (Please read the comments there. You might call it foreshadowing.)
A good portion of the Maemo community has, obviously, been reasonably happy with landscape-only for some time already. Those that aren't, are quite used crafting hacks to work around what Nokia provides.

Eager new users, experienced on other platforms, show up excited to express their enthusiasm for Maemo but also their confusion as to how a such a key feature as ASR could be missing.
The Maemo community responds with a collective shrug (due to the reasons above), shocking the newcomers (who share none of that history).
New users continued to arrive and, having received no real response regarding ASR, become increasingly vocal in their insistence it must be added.
Nokia sees the demand for ASR and provides subtle (and not so subtle) hints about why it's not in Fremantle, where it is planned, and what they'd be willing to do in the meantime.
From experience, the Maemo community knows better than the newcomers who the Nokia people are and how to read what they're saying, so they see answers where others don't. This widens a nasty gap.
The parts of the Maemo community who are particularly keen on screen rotation figure they'll just need to come up with the appropriate hacks for Maemo 5, just as they have for previous releases. They move on to other things (and other threads), putting thoughts about any ASR hacks on the back burner until the final SDK--containing more of the parts they need--arrives.
More and more new users arrive and express their need for ASR.
Communications continue to degrade. Generalizing, but:

One side can't see how anyone could fail to recognize the importance of making ASR happen now.
The other side can't understand how anyone could fail to see that ASR can't happen now and that improvements will come over the next weeks and months.

Some people from each side fall into shouting at people on the other side for being rude and unhelpful. Each side knows it's obvious, based on experience, what needs to happen.

It's just a shame their experiences are so different...

Thor

2009-09-26, 03:31

One way to implement portrait mode via automatic screen rotation (ASR).
Have the phone rotate it and if it is too big to fit, then you have to scroll around (kinetic scrolling comes in useful here?). This will at least have the mode until there are "proper" portrait mode UIs. Those who don't want to make a UI can leave it if they want, their choice.

ASR should also be switchable on or off, and perhaps with an option for permanent portrait or permanent landscape (the default).

An example of this could perhaps be (simplistically):

on event change accelerometer_value
if accelerometer_flag= "OFF"
end if
elseif <program>_allows_ASR = "OFF"
end if
else if accelerometer_value = "Portrait"
then call <program>_UI_portrait
else call <program>_UI_landscape
end if

Ok this is very basic and I should get back to SQL statements... it's been years since I programmed in C++, this looks more like VB...!

timsamoff

2009-09-26, 03:34

12. Sometime people (like me) need time (like more than a few minutes -- and sometimes even a few days) between posts in order to formulate informed opinions and responses, and then return only to find innumerable responses and new threads (sometimes all by the same person) about the same subject.

Seriously, I (for one) will only concentrate on threads that progress at a personally acceptable rate -- that doesn't happen a whole lot here, and I really enjoy skimming for "Thanks" to important excerpts. When people rain fury down on certain subjects, I'm prone to turn off to them and go elsewhere.

This is why I appreciated when the ASR Brainstorm idea was finally posted -- it is one place where we, as the general public, can go to vote and suss these things out. What good are all of these discussions? Go to the Brainstorm, add solutions, or vote negatively for ideas you don't like, etc. No need to complain or yell at each other here.

Tim

PetriS

2009-09-26, 03:51

Here's (roughly) how I see what's transpired:
...
It's just a shame their experiences are so different...

Well said.

One of the best introductions to open source development for me was "Working on open source" from a decade ago http://ometer.com/hacking.html

It has lots of wisdom on requesting features, lurking, respect, etc.

In addition, I find it surprising that some kind of "Code of Conduct" was not presented on the header of Maemo Talk, but only a FAQ without proper information for newcomers (like me). I try to keep in mind something like Ubuntu's:
http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
http://www.ubuntu.com/community/leadership-conduct

There may be a lot of enthusiastic newcomers, and life will find its way.

jurop88

2009-09-26, 08:08

Just to post my feedback about ASR. I am a (very proud and satisfied) owner of a Tablet PC from Motion Computing. It is provided vith a Vista version rather customized that (IMHO) works rather well on the machine. The machine itself is very productive and I am very happy to have bought it.
Vista provides a mechanism of ASR, and the machine has its acceleremoters. First two months the option was enabled, WOW, how geek it is :) !!!
I have it from little less than a year now, and needless to say the option of automatic ASR had been turned off long ago. There is a hardware key configured for rotating the screen, and I simply click on it when i need it. The screen rotates when i decide so, otherwise on the long term the experience is totally frustrating, I can grant you so!

Passing on N900, we have to consider two main things:

- different form factor
- different use cases

I almost always use my tablet PC in its portrait mode, only barely in landscape when I need more horizontal room without scrolling.

Probably it means that for 'productive' tasks the N900 will be used in landscape mode almost all of the time, while for other tasks (i.e phone or music hearing) the prevalent use will be portrait. For sure Nokia already studied lots of use cases and best implementations.

My idea is that every application should have a default behaviour, and ASR should not be implemented automagically by the system. The system should provide a coherent way to change rotation (but I think X system already does this). When you pick up your phone from the pocket, well, it's a phone. And a phone is best used portrait. When you take it out to chat, you need the keyboard, and therefore you go landscape. What when you need to chat with only one hand free (bus, train, everywhere)? Well: go portrait with T9 active with soft keyobard. One use case, one orientation. The 'automagically' rotation is therefore choosen on an application basis by itself. And there should be the chance to configure the default rotation and to change it via a hardware key. But HW keys are room constrained and N900 has no dedicated hardware keys for that... Gestures?

And yes, I choose this thread because I am totally against ASR, the screen should not rotate because the system decides so ;)

On the other side, if the system provides coherency, the application could just call the rotation depending on its use case, and the experience of rotation will be a good experience.

Just my 2c

christexaport

2009-09-26, 14:30

jurop88, we semi agree. I'd take a rotation key, I just want the option. Don't like the forced landscape. And I'm not talking about apps, but the system desktops and Fremantle stuff. Apps are always up to the dev, per the SDK. But I want access to my widgets no matter which orientation. Widgets are a convenience deal, and I think portrait is a convenience orientation. Just to make myself clear.

But off to my thread...

range

2009-09-26, 16:34

Even if you can't discuss in the same thread it would be good to have everybody voting in the same proposal.

http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/add_universal_support_for_asr-automatic_screen_rotation-throughout_the_ui-002/

Is there any way to get all rotatin brainstorms into one session? Because I know I commented on another brainstorm idea which also was about general rotation of the device (and no, I cannot find it again).

EDIT: Ah yes, this one: http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/portrait_mode_for_desktop_and_general_interface_in _fremantle/

kryptoniankid17

2009-09-26, 17:24

And watch where you push. Sometimes it sounds like borderline whining..

Let's focus on channeling the energies to something productive..

not whining i just belive that evolving comes from being challenged. i also belive there's no such thing as impossible. Our only limitations are those we place upon our selves. Words of wisdom from my dad.

Soulfarmer

2009-09-26, 17:36

But I won't be attending any Maemo conferences. Might have to punch some of these rude guys. Just not very nice atmosphere. I take my community for granted.

You talk about punching and rude guys in the same sentence? :confused:
I think that is not very nice atmosphere. I think it shows impatience on your part more than anything else.

It didn't even feel like you were joking to be honest. :(

ysss

2009-09-26, 18:18

not whining i just belive that evolving comes from being challenged. i also belive there's no such thing as impossible. Our only limitations are those we place upon our selves. Words of wisdom from my dad.

I don't quite get how being challenged to evolve leads to whining, but I just think that if you're not happy with something you should:

1). Fix it yourself if you can.
2). If you can't, then find someone who can and work together with them to address the problem.

#2 seems simple, but as you can see from the past few days it's not as straightforward as it seems. There are positive ways to do this and there definitely are negative ways to do it. The negative ones vary a lot.. let me give you a few examples:

- Annoy or harass others, so they will do your bidding to make you stop. This is essentially the same concept that a child exerts when they whine, hence the term. In a forum, it can be seen when someone keeps talking about the same issue again and again in multiple threads.

- Intimidate others by saying things like "I'm gonna slap\punch someone if I'm in the same room as them"

kryptoniankid17

2009-09-26, 19:05

I don't quite get how being challenged to evolve leads to whining, but I just think that if you're not happy with something you should:

1). Fix it yourself if you can.
2). If you can't, then find someone who can and work together with them to address the problem.

#2 seems simple, but as you can see from the past few days it's not as straightforward as it seems. There are positive ways to do this and there definitely are negative ways to do it. The negative ones vary a lot.. let me give you a few examples:

- Annoy or harass others, so they will do your bidding to make you stop. This is essentially the same concept that a child exerts when they whine, hence the term. In a forum, it can be seen when someone keeps talking about the same issue again and again in multiple threads.

- Intimidate others by saying things like "I'm gonna slap\punch someone if I'm in the same room as them"

was the whinning comment directed at me? i was at work in boring meeting at the time i read it. lol but i do get your point.

christexaport

2009-09-26, 20:48

Is there any way to get all rotatin brainstorms into one session? Because I know I commented on another brainstorm idea which also was about general rotation of the device (and no, I cannot find it again).

EDIT: Ah yes, this one: http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/portrait_mode_for_desktop_and_general_interface_in _fremantle/
I started the other one, and I ask that everyone instead post into that one which you listed above. That's
http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/portrait_mode_for_desktop_and_general_interface_in _fremantle/
for those that haven't caught up.

christexaport

2009-09-26, 20:50

You talk about punching and rude guys in the same sentence? :confused:
I think that is not very nice atmosphere. I think it shows impatience on your part more than anything else.

It didn't even feel like you were joking to be honest. :(
I'm only half joking. And I guess I didn't put the required LOL to let ya know. It was a joke because I did get upset and threaten someone a few days ago. We all act stupid once in a while.

christexaport

2009-09-26, 20:52

or saying..."I'm gonna slap\punch someone if I'm in the same room as them"
HEY! That's copyright infringement! :p

beatmag

2009-09-27, 10:37

so, please, no autorotation, no rotation at all, thanks.

saw this, but i couldn't help to laugh.

LOL.

so please people , dont buy this stupid landscape only phone.
let this developer, develop stuff for this device that no one will buy.

ragnar

2009-09-27, 11:04

Universal support would be fine; very limited support (within one app) is fine; half-way support is very tricky. Say you have a platform where 20 apps support portrait mode and 20 do not. Clicking on an app in portrait mode icon in the Menu or on the Home screens, you can never be sure if the resulting UI would be 90 degrees around. And the Dashboard: say that you have three applications running that work in portrait and three that do not, what does it look like.

The Dashboard is probably about the single hardest UI piece to solve in cases where some applications do not support portrait mode. I've already heard good enough proposals on how the Home screens would work, but I haven't heard the same for Dashboard. You can be in landscape mode, enter an application, turn to portrait, zoom out back to Dashboard. First of all every app needs to activate themselves and rerender themselves in another orientation (not easy peasy if you have 10 apps open), then again, some do not. Or you can enter the Dashboard, then turn the orientation: everything rerenders? Are the thumbnails horizontal or vertical? Or a mixture of both? What happens with notifications, do they also rotate? Are some graphics in thumbnails just 90 degrees around, i.e. not updated? Does the view turn only after entering the next application etc.

If somebody has great ideas on how to visualize this, please contribute to Brainstorm and let us know. :)

ogahyellow

2009-09-27, 11:39

Universal support would be fine; very limited support (within one app) is fine; half-way support is very tricky. Say you have a platform where 20 apps support portrait mode and 20 do not. Clicking on an app in portrait mode icon in the Menu or on the Home screens, you can never be sure if the resulting UI would be 90 degrees around.

I think this is a lot easier with a user-controlled rotation, rather than auto-rotation. If an application does not support a rotated UI, with a button an application can display a "rotation not supported" message. I guess this is also possible in the ASR case, but I would hate for a message to constantly pop up because the device thinks I'm rotating it.

ASR is one of the things I hate about the iPhone and iPod Touch. Sometimes you just shake the device and it rotates and then rotates back. When I hold it parallel to the ground, sometimes it will rotate for no reason in the middle of reading a paragraph, or when using the scientific calculator. Then at other times it just does not rotate, and I would have to play with it to get the screen to rotate. I know this is more of a complaint about the iPhone than something constructive about Maemo, however I think that the community sentiment is to respect the user more than the tree-fruit experience.

The device should respect what I want it to do, not what it wants to do. ASR to me is just a pain. Give me a button for it and I am happy. I know better than the device if I want it portrait or landscape. A button is a definitive decision by the user. A 47-degree angle may or may not be indicative of a user decision for rotation. No ASR for me please.

Read the thread title. PLEASE DON'T post here if you DON'T have an interest in having ASR on the N900 in the future. You're free to make a thread in support of NOT allowing it, but I'm trying to gather supporters, not dissidents.

With all due respect, a "dissident" thread has been created, yet you are the #1 poster in the thread.

Obligatory xkcd (http://xkcd.com/386/)

nymajoak

2009-09-27, 11:46

The Dashboard is probably about the single hardest UI piece to solve in cases where some applications do not support portrait mode.
...
Are the thumbnails horizontal or vertical? Or a mixture of both?

Just to inform myself, are applications today forced to have landscape support? Just interested what would otherwise happen if an application was designed only for portrait support; we would have the above problem even without rotating dashboard?

anidel

2009-09-27, 11:50

I have been playing with portrait mode in Xournal and I can tell that I am thinking not to support it yet.

Some widgets are not really that ready to be rotated and if so, they don't look nice.

Some GTK widget are simply not been designed with so few horizontal space in mind (480 pixels wide is not a common display in the PC world).
This implies that Nokians need to adapt all of those that look ugly + probably make some of their own + think about a whole new UI for all the stock applications + re-test them + involve designers and bla bla bla.. lot's of work, trust me.

I have, for example, to think about a shorter toolbar in Xournal, and I have to think at an alternative way of showing the Tools page (and I haven't yet made the landscape one!!), need to check how the PDF generated from a rotated screen looks like and if it's ugly adapt it.

Need also to check if the keyboard is open what to do.
I will have to detect it and rotate the UI in landscape, the user closes it and I need to check if he also rotated the phone and react accordingly.

Trust me then.. not easy and it's one application.

ragnar

2009-09-27, 11:53

Just to inform myself, are applications today forced to have landscape support? Just interested what would otherwise happen if an application was designed only for portrait support; we would have the above problem even without rotating dashboard?

Slightly theoretical - since landscape is the current norm - but no, in theory. You can select an orientation and then ignore the orientation change signals. Now, since there is a HW keyboard, not supporting landscape isn't highly recommended, but nothing is preventing it... well, except currently the Dashboard expects a thumbnail for each running task, and it is shown in landscape -> might be funny if you cannot do a landscape thumbnail for your running view.

anidel

2009-09-27, 11:54

nymajoak

2009-09-27, 11:59

Slightly theoretical - since landscape is the current norm - but no, in theory. You can select an orientation and then ignore the orientation change signals. Now, since there is a HW keyboard, not supporting landscape isn't highly recommended, but nothing is preventing it... well, except currently the Dashboard expects a thumbnail for each running task, and it is shown in landscape -> might be funny if you cannot do a landscape thumbnail for your running view.

Continuing on the theoretical path -- would the dashboard handle it at all (and just look funny) or would it break?

What I am getting at is if there currently is a way to handle the vertical/horizontal conundrum (technically, not aesthetically).

allnameswereout

2009-09-27, 12:08

I think this is a lot easier with a user-controlled rotation, rather than auto-rotation. If an application does not support a rotated UI, with a button an application can display a "rotation not supported" message. I guess this is also possible in the ASR case, but I would hate for a message to constantly pop up because the device thinks I'm rotating it.Good point. One could make the case the user knows about that once he tried to rotate it, and confirmed it with 'OK'. But even having to confirm that for every application, isn't it enough feedback when the application simply does not rotate?

ASR is one of the things I hate about the iPhone and iPod Touch. Sometimes you just shake the device and it rotates and then rotates back. When I hold it parallel to the ground, sometimes it will rotate for no reason in the middle of reading a paragraph, or when using the scientific calculator. Then at other times it just does not rotate, and I would have to play with it to get the screen to rotate. I know this is more of a complaint about the iPhone than something constructive about Maemo, however I think that the community sentiment is to respect the user more than the tree-fruit experience.Yes, I can imagine several use cases. When in vehicle in mountains. When lying on couch. Even when walking down a hill. Therefore, one could argue ASR should be a configuration option one is able to put off. In iPhoneOS that is possible with jailbreak. Then one can use I think winterboard and have a quick way to toggle it.

ragnar

2009-09-27, 12:12

Continuing on the theoretical path -- would the dashboard handle it at all (and just look funny) or would it break?

What I am getting at is if there currently is a way to handle the vertical/horizontal cunundrum (technically, not aesthetically).

A bit hard to say, but perhaps. If I press the switcher key in portrait mode call, the Dashboard appears (in landscape). For a split second it draws the call UI portrait version, cropped so that the top 50% is shown (so that text does not go 90 degrees up), then it is rerendered with the landscape version.

I would guess that if the app is portrait only, it would just stick with that cropped thumbnail. Cannot test this currently, since there is no such app.

christexaport

2009-09-27, 16:23

Yes, I can imagine several use cases. When in vehicle in mountains. When lying on couch. Even when walking down a hill. Therefore, one could argue ASR should be a configuration option one is able to put off. In iPhoneOS that is possible with jailbreak. Then one can use I think winterboard and have a quick way to toggle it.
The N95/96/97 solved this by letting you turn off ASR. I like the option of a rotation button on the screen as a third option, too. That's a great idea. You should put it as a solution in the Brainstorm here:
http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/portrait_mode_for_desktop_and_general_interface_in _fremantle/
If you don't soon, I just may do it for you, because its great to have options, and ON/OFF/Rotation Button is perfect if the rotation button is in a good place. Maybe bring it up like the mouse for copy and paste in the N900 browser...

allnameswereout

2009-09-27, 16:29

[...] I like the option of a rotation button on the screen as a third option, too. [...]Hmm :confused: not sure we understand each other. My point and compare was allowing one to toggle ASR mode on or off.

christexaport

2009-09-27, 16:38

Texrat

2009-09-27, 16:46

how so, bro? You're one of the best speakers/writers I know. Explain in that great way you always do. I'd love to see another side to this.

Well, darn... sjgadsby and timsamoff beat me to the answer... and while I appreciate the compliment, I think Gadsby did a better job than I could.

But here's my personal observations nonetheless...

1) Tim's point about the prolific posting is key. As someone with way too many posts I can attest first-hand-- I know my passion and level of engagement has rubbed many people raw so you're not the only one who's caught flack for it. If you only knew how many times I refrained from hitting the Reply button... ;)

2) The "Indifference" thread was started in irreverent humor mode... but even at that I do think JayOnThaBeat was trying to oblige you.

3) There IS a tendency here to erect instant walls to ideas that have either been hashed over ad nauseum or are seen as requiring a lot of work. I feel your pain on that too because as a relentless idea generator (o, the gifts of ADD) I run into those walls a lot myself. That said-- some of the resistance is misguided IMO. It tends to shut down creativity at the worst possible times. Perhaps a maturing Brainstorm section will help facilitate improvement.

You've got at least as much passion as I do so I welcome you for it. However, it can work against you if not doled out in well-paced measure (to Tim's point). On the other hand... you could take heat off of me. :D

JayOnThaBeat

2009-09-27, 16:49

2) The thread was started in irreverent humor mode... but even at that I do think JayOnThaBeat was trying to oblige you.

You just proved one of my points any way.

I didn't start this thread.... this is the anti-thread lol.

I started the who-cares-thread.

Too many threads on one subject simultaneously, and this is what happens.

Texrat

2009-09-27, 16:54

Oops, sorry Jay, didn't mean to give you more credit than you deserve. :p

EDIT: I fixed my statement

JayOnThaBeat

2009-09-27, 16:57

Oops, sorry Jay, didn't mean to give you more credit than you deserve. :p

EDIT: I fixed my statement

I'm looking forward to the release, so we can go back to having better threads.

I like reading about new stuff / discoveries / hacks / etc.

Everything lately has just been b*tching :-/

Texrat

2009-09-27, 17:06

I'm looking forward to the release, so we can go back to having better threads.

I like reading about new stuff / discoveries / hacks / etc.

Everything lately has just been b*tching :-/

It was inevitable.

It may be hard to find, but I commented on a thread from wayyy back about how I didn't understand why adding a cell capability to the tablets needed to be so polarizing.

Ah, foolish me. How could I be so naive.

The N900 has significantly changed the game. It is forcing a (r)evolution upon a community that was finally starting to establish a status quo.

Ah well. We old farts need a shake up now and then, and it feeds the noobs. :D

allnameswereout

2009-09-27, 17:21

I got that, but by design, if you rotate the device, then hit the button, you'll get an instant rotate anyway. Why not just have a button to MAKE it rotate, regardless of the sensor? Saves battery and would work on devices without sensors, plus prevent accidental rotations. You don't like that idea?Indeed I don't like that idea because we consider that in most cases the user wishes to have autorotate on or wants to the device to decide optimal mode. Having to enable ASR first then, or needing to go to some button, sucks. There are use-cases where the user wants it off, I admit that (and gave examples), but then I say: allow the user to put ASR mode off because usually the user wants it on.

Now, if it is put off (with side effect accelerometer not using juice), you could say indeed "instead of putting ASR mode on you may wish to prefer to manually rotate the screen once". The interaction required for either toggle is roughly similar, and a manual rotation might lead to better desired effect than ASR because ASR mode gives wrong effect.

However my bottomline is that users by default do not give a flying **** about all this, and just want the device to take care of it. They want to use the device instead of having to configure all kind of bells and whistles.

When users complain due to experience about an application being sub-optimal, a solution could be sought on a case-by-case scenario, based on community feedback and popular demand (Brainstorm). That seems to me the most efficient way for development resources spend.

ogahyellow

2009-09-27, 18:26

A bit hard to say, but perhaps. If I press the switcher key in portrait mode call, the Dashboard appears (in landscape). For a split second it draws the call UI portrait version, cropped so that the top 50% is shown (so that text does not go 90 degrees up), then it is rerendered with the landscape version.

I would guess that if the app is portrait only, it would just stick with that cropped thumbnail. Cannot test this currently, since there is no such app.

Creating the dashboard and widgets with both landscape and portrait mode support seems like a real pain. The widgets are not grid aligned like on many competitors, so rotating could cause some confusing moments. A developer could have input on to if there is a memory footprint increase of having to maintain 2 positions for everything.

The big thing to me is that there are only 4 use cases that are personally relevant for portrait mode.

Phone
Calculator
Note tablet w/ stylus
Music player

christexaport

2009-09-28, 01:54

Laughing Man

2009-09-28, 02:24

Having used the iPhone in portrait mode, I can honestly say that typing and composing anything in portrait mode is not for me (way to many mistakes). But every individual is different.

christexaport

2009-09-28, 02:57

of course not. iPhone has no haptics or T9 support. T9 with one hand is faster and more accurate than QWERTY in portrait. If not for the large amount of people that live life using QWERTY at work, making it hard to switch between for some, QWERTY wouldn't be so popular. The fact is, many people that didn't grow up SMS crazy haven't even given T9 a real chance, so they don't know that its actually faster and more accurate.

Texrat

2009-09-28, 03:26

I gave T9 a chance and it slowed me down. Way down. My brain just doesn't work well with it although I would like it to. So for text, I'll take landscape mode any day.

christexaport

2009-09-28, 04:48

TrackSol

2009-09-28, 05:34

Creating the dashboard and widgets with both landscape and portrait mode support seems like a real pain. The widgets are not grid aligned like on many competitors, so rotating could cause some confusing moments.

I agree. Regardless of the method used to rotate the screen (automatic or user directed), how will the items on the desktop rearrange themselves? IMHO this will make the UI look ugly and inconsitant.

The big thing to me is that there are only 4 use cases that are personally relevant for portrait mode.

Phone
Calculator
Note tablet w/ stylus
Music player

I can imagine visually pleasing and effective landscape layouts for all of these.

One thing to consider is when using the device, how often will the user be required to switch between landscape and portrait because this will make the user fumble with the device quite a lot. For example, currently the phone application is fixed to portrait. Contacts is in landscape. So every time you place a call you're switching from landscape to portrait and back. If you're in an application and a call comes in, again, same thing. IMHO this is very inconvenient.

I do see the one handed convenience of potrait mode however there doesn't seem to be a good solution accepted by all. Each suggested implementation creates its own set of problems. Thus I believe a single layout throughout the UI is ideal as it results in the least amount of difficulties and problems.

ogahyellow, assuming those are the only relevant portrait mode use cases totally ignores one of the greatest devices of the decade, the N95, which ushered in the totally portrait mobile computing we see today. You can do ANYthing in portrait with relative ease and convenience, as the N95 showed.
I don't have any experience with the N95, however it seems like there is no other option than to use that device in portrait mode. If you don't have to switch layouts then you will learn to be efficient with the device by force and not by choice. I'm not saying that potrait doesn't have it's uses. I'm only saying that having a device that can support both creates a headache for programmers and an inconvenience for users (no matter how cool it looks the first few times you auto rotate).

You might need to research the N95 and N97's rabid user base and find out exactly what can be done in one hand in portrait nowadays.
The N97's home screen's widgets are laid out in a grid pattern that is fixed in either layout. Additionaly, the UI in symbian isn't as flexible as Maemo5. This is the distinct and important difference since in Fremantle you can move any object on the homescreen around.

If developers want to make their application in a specific layout to maximize the application's effectiveness, that is their right. I however do not belive automatic rotation should be implemented at the dashboard/desktop/UI level.

kryptoniankid17

2009-09-28, 05:58

Creating the dashboard and widgets with both landscape and portrait mode support seems like a real pain. The widgets are not grid aligned like on many competitors, so rotating could cause some confusing moments. A developer could have input on to if there is a memory footprint increase of having to maintain 2 positions for everything.

The big thing to me is that there are only 4 use cases that are personally relevant for portrait mode.

Phone
Calculator
Note tablet w/ stylus
Music player

that is a good one does the media player work in portrait. it would be really inconvenient during a workout. especially running.

TrackSol

2009-09-28, 06:11

that is a good one does the media player work in portrait. it would be really inconvenient during a workout. especially running.

Doesn't the N900 support stereo bluetooth audio? You could leave it on the treadmill and listen with bluetooth headphones.

christexaport

2009-09-28, 06:19

for everyone making comments for ASR, theres a thread for that, and we're taking this off topic. Let's continue those comments here:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=32050&highlight=support

christexaport

2009-09-28, 06:31

I don't have any experience with the N95, however it seems like there is no other option than to use that device in portrait mode.
No, you can rotate two separate ways. Either by ASR or by using the slide to switch from portrait (with the keypad showing) or landscape (with the media buttons showing). And not allowing the switch will just repel some users, and I'm not sure that is ever a good idea.

I'm only saying that having a device that can support both creates a headache for programmers and an inconvenience for users (no matter how cool it looks the first few times you auto rotate).
look at it this way, since this is probably how many feel. If you add it, you take NIT's from being attractive to the 300k+ that already have them plus the 17 million+ N95 owners that have waited over 2 years for a suitable upgrade, not including the iPhone, WinMo, an Blackberry users wanting something more powerful and just as versatile. More users equal more development and marketing, and possibly more support from big third party developers.

So a slight inconvenience could mean better things for Maemo.

The N97's home screen's widgets are laid out in a grid pattern that is fixed in either layout. Additionaly, the UI in symbian isn't as flexible as Maemo5. This is the distinct and important difference since in Fremantle you can move any object on the homescreen around.
I fully understand that. I don't think its impossible, though, so why be scared to try? Flying in space was hard too, but NASA got it done. We're much smarter than them... or maybe not, but I'm just saying:p

doksng

2009-09-28, 07:05

texrat, you have to avoid the qwerty keyboard and use predictive for a month or two, and I bet you exceed anything you can do with mini qwerty. I learned years ago, and haven't looked back. But if you work with qwerty everyday, it makes it hard to switch all of the time. But its proven tech as far as I'm concerned.
Used T9 and was really fast using it before moving to qwerty and tried T9 and Qwerty at the same time on the N97.
But my personal preference draws me back to qwerty. I know quite a lot of people who use the N95 and would rather use the multi-press instead of T9 even after trying to convince them of the advantages of T9. Lets not generalize that everyone loves T9

PetriS

2009-09-28, 07:16

For example, currently the phone application is fixed to portrait. Contacts is in landscape. So every time you place a call you're switching from landscape to portrait and back. If you're in an application and a call comes in, again, same thing. IMHO this is very inconvenient.

I visited Nokia flagship store in Helsinki today to check this on the prototype N900. Both phone application (http://mobile-review.com/review/image/nokia/maemo5/scr/phone-calling-app/calls10.jpg) (dialer (http://mobile-review.com/review/image/nokia/rx51-n900/scr/scr27.jpg)) and contact list (http://www.mobile-review.com/review/image/nokia/rx51-n900/scr/scr76.jpg) can be used in both portrait and landscape, with auto rotation unless the keyboard is drawn out. Perhaps you meant a hypothetical case when the dialer is fixed in portrait by users choice -- it is possible too.

I was a bit suprised, however, that the simple looking
sms (http://mobile-review.com/review/image/nokia/rx51-n900/scr/scr23.jpg), and on-screen keyboard (http://mobile-review.com/review/image/nokia/rx51-n900/scr/scr24.jpg) were only landscape. Did not try calculator (http://mobile-review.com/review/image/nokia/rx51-n900/scr/scr36.jpg) or notifications (http://mobile-review.com/review/image/nokia/maemo5/scr/conversations-messaging/sms18.jpg).

The firmware was old 34-8 if I remember correctly.

I am happy -- my use cases for single handed portrait would be checking the just arrived sms and answering/placing a call. Only rarely also writing a sms on an on-screen keyboard -- the fixed keyboard is way better. As for media player, for controlling music single-handedly I would mostly use remote control buttons in some headset, not sure if it is possible here. Browser portrait mode may be coming too (see Michele here (http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/browser-add_portrait_mode_support_to_the_browser-automatic_screen_rotation/)).

ragnar

2009-09-28, 07:33

For the title "Glad there is no universal portrait support", the word universal here is the key.

As people discuss here, there are certain features that would be very useful for portrait. My personal #1 vote would go for the Media player, the Now playing view. I've been using now the N900 as my mp3 player (32 gigabytes of space and all that), and changing songs would definitely benefit from the portrait mode.

Then again, there are a lot of applications that ... Well, I couldn't care less if they wouldn't support portrait.

However, when we talk about universal portrait mode support, and somebody would actually do it, it would mean spending weeks and weeks (months, really) trying to make all views work in portrait. Even those that are hard to fit in portrait and that are really not that needed...

... I guess the question is that what are you trying to do portrait mode for. Is it either portrait mode for one hand use tasks or portrait mode for everything. For Maemo 5 I would personally say that trying to fix the "smaller issue" of portrait mode for certain critical one hand use tasks. If one would try to get the best "bang for buck", one would do a list of most critical missing one hand use cases in applications and try to fix those, one at a time.

christexaport

2009-09-28, 09:02

What if the use case is simple data entry? Right now, its 2 hands. What then?

ragnar

2009-09-28, 09:10

What if the use case is simple data entry? Right now, its 2 hands. What then?

Data entry with one hand in portrait is definitely tricky. Just making an UI portrait doesn't automatically enable one hand entry. It's a rather limiting area on screen that is easy to press with the same hand that is holding the device. In theory you can try to reach all the corners with the same thumb, but in practice it becomes very cumbersome very quickly.

Data entry, if talking about text input, is also problematic. (And even more problematic with one hand.) You could do a T9 design, but then again, T9 is just far slower than the HW qwerty. The effort of switching to landscape and starting to use the qwerty becomes very small in comparison to the effort of trying to type something with T9. Then again, Apple has a qwerty in portrait. In order for that to work nicely, you really need a predictive engine (as Apple has) on top of it, trying to smooth out and predict your finger presses. (Yes, you can try to live without it, but I'm pretty pessimistic about how long users would be willing to use a portrait qwerty without it.)

christexaport

2009-09-28, 09:55

Data entry with one hand in portrait is definitely tricky.
:confused: HUH? Its the oldest trick in the book, and biillions of portrait devices shipped with qwerty and T9. You lost me there.

Data entry, if talking about text input, is also problematic. (And even more problematic with one hand.) You could do a T9 design, but then again, T9 is just far slower than the HW qwerty.
Not true again. Check the real tests. The fastest texter in the world uses T9, and couldn't get 40% of the speed in qwerty. Where do you get the idea qwerty is faster?
check these links:

http://www.symbian-freak.com/news/008/08/which_is_better_t9_or_qwerty.htm
http://jace.livejournal.com/446536.html

I'd love to do another speed test shootout to prove a point...

doksng

2009-09-28, 10:03

Your speed with T9 slows down when you type a lot of non English words especially when using slangs

frals

2009-09-28, 10:06

I'd say it comes down to what you are used to. After using T9 ever since it started to appear in cellphones I'm quite sure I'm way faster with it than the 3 row qwerty on the N900, but after some time I think I'm unlikely to reflect over the difference in daily usage.

doksng: After you used the slang word once it *should* be in the T9 dictionary and shouldn't slow you down the next time ;)

doksng

2009-09-28, 10:13

yes it should but, it seems to have a buffer and replaces older ones with new ones as you add more and more

christexaport

2009-09-28, 10:15

Your speed with T9 slows down when you type a lot of non English words especially when using slangs

This is a big limitation, and I've begged Nokia, who helped develop the T9 system with Samsung, to update the spec to include multiple dictionary support for using two or more languages at once, plus increase the base size of the T9 dictionary, which doesn't store enough words. These are big issues that turn people off to T9. Were they fixed, it would proliferate even more.

JayOnThaBeat

2009-09-28, 10:18

<passing.opinion>
If you're too busy to free up both of your hands, you are too busy to
type on your device.
</passing.opinion>

Mandibela

2009-09-28, 10:18

Creating two interfaces for any app is mandatory if system-wide-ASR is implemented.

Also, the user would have to learn twice as much (or more if no similar logic is used in every app in rotating - this would have to be clearly defined in guidelines) to use the device. This adds to learning curve and slows usability in those situations where the system tries to choose between orientations. Perhaps a way of lessening the confusion in users when the screen is rotated could be a way to show the user how the interface has changed - maybe by animating the change completely, showing each button or image moving to the other location. Otherwise the interface would have to stay pretty similar and that creates issues due the aspect ratio and resolution. This naturally depends on the app.

Delay will be introduced and this creates frustration, especially when the user will have to experience and recognize the screen rotation situations to know how to avoid them if speed of use is needed. This adds to the burden of what-not-to-do if robust functionality is expected. This surely is not wanted.

If screen rotation has to be implemented, it must not confuse the user in any way. Some devices that have ASR have a very steep learning curve, ymmv. This lessens the overall appeal of the device.
ASR would have to be clearly defined and explained.

IF ASR will be implemented in the OS, I propose a control panel app where the user can allow/disallow/let-the-system-choose screen rotation per application basis. A complete system wide ASR disable is stupid, the phone functionality is based on the screen rotation at the desktop (the 'complete' button should perhaps be relabeled as 'the way this device was designed to be used').

As the current situtation is that any 3rd party developer can choose whether to have a portrait interface... I'd reallly leave it at that. Atleast, if ASR would be implemented Nokia shold have it as a installable feature afterwards, and not as a forced update later. I imagine Qt and maemo 6 will have more flexibility to have ASR functionality.

Mandibela

2009-09-28, 10:29

:confused: HUH? Its the oldest trick in the book, and biillions of portrait devices shipped with qwerty and T9. You lost me there.

Not true again. Check the real tests. The fastest texter in the world uses T9, and couldn't get 40% of the speed in qwerty. Where do you get the idea qwerty is faster?
check these links:

http://www.symbian-freak.com/news/008/08/which_is_better_t9_or_qwerty.htm
http://jace.livejournal.com/446536.html

I'd love to do another speed test shootout to prove a point...

Maybe in english. Other laguages behave differently. There is no way T9 is always faster.

Mandibela

2009-09-28, 10:31

What if the use case is simple data entry? Right now, its 2 hands. What then?

You use 2 hands. If you can't use your own two, ask a friend :D

ragnar

2009-09-28, 10:45

Not true again. Check the real tests. The fastest texter in the world uses T9, and couldn't get 40% of the speed in qwerty. Where do you get the idea qwerty is faster?
check these links:
http://www.symbian-freak.com/news/008/08/which_is_better_t9_or_qwerty.htm
http://jace.livejournal.com/446536.html

I think real tests = controlled usability studies with more than one user. i.e. those are somewhat off from being real tests, even though it is certainly passionate text from a passionate user. Believe me, I've seen real tests and test results, and in average qwerty is much faster than T9. Yes, you can develop to be a hardcore T9 typer, but just the same way I could do my test (being a rather quick E71 typist) and find my E71 typing speed crush my N95 typing speed.

And yes, that would be a flawed test, but it is just as flawed as his test.

ragnar

2009-09-28, 10:54

:confused: HUH? Its the oldest trick in the book, and biillions of portrait devices shipped with qwerty and T9. You lost me there.

Yes, but it depends on the size of the device. On a 2.5" monoblock with conveniently placed HW keys you can do T9 with one hand. On a 3.5"-4" touch screen it is far less comfortable, depending on the device (thickness etc.) and the positioning of the controls on the touch screen.

i.e. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKtyzDrLwLk What he is doing at the beginning, this is not one hand usage (just to make sure we are talking about the same thing). The first hand is holding the device.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiK96WuFBN8 This is not one hand usage.

I checked about 10 videos iPhone typing videos from Youtube, none of them were typing with one hand.

chemist

2009-09-28, 11:03

anidel:
please consider your app as 'good' in landscape! having the camera involved for your xournal background sounds much more important then portrait mode. but one idea for your portrait: have it scrolling toolbars and keep the button size. act. I think ppl who use xournal will use it most of the time in landscape mode, with a pen so you could have an additional set of smaller buttons (make it choosable)

range

2009-09-28, 11:07

Then again, Apple has a qwerty in portrait. In order for that to work nicely, you really need a predictive engine (as Apple has) on top of it, trying to smooth out and predict your finger presses.

I don't find the prediction engine of the nits (770 and 800) that bad, so this is already there. But I already do have problems hitting the keys on the virtual keyboard as it is, and I don't think it would have larger keys in portrait mode ...

ragnar

2009-09-28, 11:14

I don't find the prediction engine of the nits (770 and 800) that bad, so this is already there. But I already do have problems hitting the keys on the virtual keyboard as it is, and I don't think it would have larger keys in portrait mode ...

Yes, by a predictive engine I didn't mean a word completion engine, but an engine that predicts what you were intending to press and adjusts your input accordingly. That's what enables smaller than thumb sized keys in portrait mode: even though you type slightly off, the predictive engine guides and tries to match your clicks with reasonable keys in the nearby area. Sometimes you actually touch "q", but it interprets it initially as "w", for instance.

christexaport

2009-09-28, 11:21

christexaport

2009-09-28, 11:24

I checked about 10 videos iPhone typing videos from Youtube, none of them were typing with one hand.

I don't doubt it. The iPhone isn't designed for one hand. Try an N95 or N97 video. I'm not a big fan of Cupertino kit... I'm a big Nokia lover, have been for years. NOTHING matches them pound for pound. So using an iPhone for anything we discuss is heresy and blasphemy. :p

kanishou

2009-09-28, 11:25

I don't find the prediction engine of the nits (770 and 800) that bad, so this is already there. But I already do have problems hitting the keys on the virtual keyboard as it is, and I don't think it would have larger keys in portrait mode ...

But it's different, right? What the NITs do (if I haven't missed something), is to predict a set of words that begin with the letters you typed. What the iPhone does is to predict what word you wanted to type, even if you missed the keys by one, and then replaces with the correct word automatically after hitting space.

I actually never found the prediction in the NITs particularly useful, as tapping the right words is disruptive and doesn't really make typing faster or more comfortable for me. What the iPhone does seems fairly ingenious, although it is still a crutch that I'd prefer not to be necessary.

ragnar

2009-09-28, 11:29

But it's different, right? What the NITs do (if I haven't missed something), is to predict a set of words that begin with the letters you typed. What the iPhone does is to predict what word you wanted to type, even if you missed the keys by one, and then replaces with the correct word automatically after hitting space.

Word completion happens after the fact, i.e. based on if I've typed "drea", it can predict "dreams" or "dreary" or whatever.

The other type of prediction happens before the fact, i.e. based on if I've typed "drea", it predicts that pressing "m" or "r" is than for instance "n" ("drean?"), and therefore updates...

... you can think of it updating the size of the "m" key to be virtually much larger than the "n" key, so if you hit the edge of the "n" key it corrects it (initially) to the "m" key. Think of like an invisible button on top of every real button that you see. The sizes of these invisible buttons change after every key press.

christexaport

2009-09-28, 11:32

As much as I dislike the iPhone, they have the predictive QWERTY thing mastered, and no one can match it so far.

kanishou

2009-09-28, 11:40

Word completion happens after the fact, i.e. based on if I've typed "drea", it can predict "dreams" or "dreary" or whatever.

The other type of prediction happens before the fact, i.e. based on if I've typed "drea", it predicts that pressing "m" or "r" is than for instance "n" ("drean?"), and therefore updates...

... you can think of it updating the size of the "m" key to be virtually much larger than the "n" key, so if you hit the edge of the "n" key it corrects it (initially) to the "m" key. Think of like an invisible button on top of every real button that you see. The sizes of these invisible buttons change after every key press.

But it's retroactive too, right? E.g. if I type out "sream", it would replace it with "dream"? In that case it would not so much change the virtual size of the buttons, rather than constantly predict which words could have been typed by hitting letters close to the actually typed letters.

ysss

2009-09-28, 11:57

I've read somewhere that iphone's osk does change the key's 'landing zones' sizes depending on the predicted word. From brief testing, it does seem to perform that way.

So in the example above of typing 'drea', all the landing zones of the keys around M are minimized (made very small) so you can slip (up to half keys) when hitting the 'M' key and the system will still register 'dream'.

range

2009-09-28, 12:03

Yes, by a predictive engine I didn't mean a word completion engine, but an engine that predicts what you were intending to press and adjusts your input accordingly. That's what enables smaller than thumb sized keys in portrait mode: even though you type slightly off, the predictive engine guides and tries to match your clicks with reasonable keys in the nearby area. Sometimes you actually touch "q", but it interprets it initially as "w", for instance.

Ah! Okay. I was wondering what you were talking about, as the previous tablets already had word completion - and I read that into the T9 which was mentioned.

GeraldKo

2009-09-28, 12:11

I hope that people here (especially Ragnar), in discussing how to provide a platform for faster typing, will consider and compare qwerty-enhanced-with-AutoText, as in the Blackberry.

There are a Brainstorm entry
(http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/autotext/)
and a thread
(http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31909)
about it.

In real-life usage, I bet that implementing autotext would have the greatest impact.

Mandibela

2009-09-28, 12:18

Said Mandibela:
"Creating two interfaces for any app is mandatory if system-wide-ASR is implemented."
Not so. Devs have the option, just like on the N95/97/N900, to support it, just as Mobitubia doesn't support portrait on the N97, which has system wide ASR.

No.

Devs already have the option to add ASR if they so see fit. To have an app either portrait or in landscape is bad coding and forces the user to rotate the device. This is forcing to use an app in a certain way. You see where I'm going...? So now you don't have a problem with in what way the phone is oriented... and you're forced to use it in landscape.

But that is just one (useless on the N900) app. The dev hadn't had enough time to implement the ASR function yet on the N97, prolly because of a second interface implementation. If he had chosen the portait mode, the video would have been uselessly small... But he could have done that too, and drop support for landscape orientation.

This is getting pointless. Unless you learn how to do ASR on the N900 yourself, let the community do it in due time. What you're doing, is spreading bad vibes. EVERYONE knows that Chris would like to have ASR on the N900.

klinglerware

2009-09-28, 12:45

<passing.opinion>
If you're too busy to free up both of your hands, you are too busy to
type on your device.
</passing.opinion>

Kind of agree with this, I see way too many people multitasking with their mobiles on the streets--walking while texting or even driving while texting or on google maps or whatever. It's a wonder that even more people don't get hurt because of this.

Anyway, I am not opposed to portrait support, as long as any implementations of automatic screen rotation can be turned off.

anidel

2009-09-28, 12:54

I usually think when writing. Think about what to write. I don't usually need to type faster and faster.
When I do type faster on a normal keyboard I make mistakes and I've got to go back and fix them (slowing me and my thoughts a lot).

I don't want to type 3 SMS in a minute or 4 emails in 30 secs.
I want to write a nice e-mail or a nice SMS that doesn't contain mistakes.

christexaport

2009-09-28, 17:56

This is getting pointless. Unless you learn how to do ASR on the N900 yourself, let the community do it in due time. What you're doing, is spreading bad vibes. EVERYONE knows that Chris would like to have ASR on the N900.
I guess. I just said something that you didn't agree with, so I'm spreading bad vibes. I'll say what I like, and I'm tired of being told not to speak. If you don't like it, email your moderater buddy and tell them. I'm done playing nice. I'm grown too. So if you don't like what I have to say, just don't respond. I'm going to act like all the old heads here. I don't give a flip. I'm here for me, and not you.

Soulfarmer

2009-09-28, 18:05

I don't give a flip. I'm here for me, and not you.

Maybe slightly out of context, but I read in some of your posts that you are an ambassador, advocate and what not. I got the impression that you want to help others. What I quoted from you doesn't seem like something one would say and still appear helpful to others.

If I start a thread about how I like Coke more than Pepsi and you start a thread about how you like Pepsi more, would you like me to come around the Pepsi thread and talk about how much better Coke is?

And I know you are trying to help others, no question about it, but your fire seems to catch others on fire more than keep them warm in the cold.

Texrat

2009-09-28, 18:05

texrat, you have to avoid the qwerty keyboard and use predictive for a month or two, and I bet you exceed anything you can do with mini qwerty. I learned years ago, and haven't looked back. But if you work with qwerty everyday, it makes it hard to switch all of the time. But its proven tech as far as I'm concerned.

Tried and failed. I put a lot of time and effort into making T9 work for me. No go. It was wrong more than it was right and I lost patience with teaching it.

Everyone is different, Chris. What works for one does not necessarily work for all.

lcuk

2009-09-28, 18:06

Am I now the only one incredibly thirsty?

Texrat

2009-09-28, 18:10

Am I now the only one incredibly thirsty?

Popcorn will do that to you Gary. :D

lcuk

2009-09-28, 18:19

nahhh, its just I'd like a nice cold glass of dandelion & burdock :)
its what I think of everytime I hear about the coke/pepsi challenge thing

chris, we hear ya, you have an interesting background and a decent perspective on the landscape.
please realise things cant change instantly, but i think your message got through :)

lets get over this discussion and onto the best parts of the newly revamped super smart internet tablet range :)

allnameswereout

2009-09-28, 18:32

texrat, you have to avoid the qwerty keyboard and use predictive for a month or two, and I bet you exceed anything you can do with mini qwerty.I just can't get used to it, else I would have gotten Nokia E51 instead of Nokia E71. If you prefer tthis though that is a N900 disadvantage for you on hardware level.

I believe a QWERTY keyboard with Fn option will eventually be faster than T9 after you 'used it for a month or two'. With predictive on. Because you need to give both equal learning curve, and the special characters you can use use faster than with T9.

allnameswereout

2009-09-28, 18:50

<passing.opinion>
If you're too busy to free up both of your hands, you are too busy to
type on your device.
</passing.opinion>There are use-case examples pointing to contrary ie. if one has something in one hand one cannot detach (metro, dog, baby) while posture is stable enough to focus on mobile device + using input on it with one hand (as possible with e.g. Nokia E71).

I usually think when writing. Think about what to write.Most people don't think before they type. To understand their way of behaviour as experiment use amphetamine in combination with writing. Helps against writers block too. ;) kidding, its a good point, but not 'universal'. If you know exactly what to write you're gonna need care for max speed. Err. Hmm. :confused:

christexaport

2009-09-28, 19:24

Popcorn will do that to you Gary. :D Who's smoking corn?

christexaport

2009-09-28, 19:26

There are use-case examples pointing to contrary ie. if one has something in one hand one cannot detach (metro, dog, baby) while posture is stable enough to focus on mobile device + using input on it with one hand (as possible with e.g. Nokia E71).

Most people don't think before they type. To understand their way of behaviour as experiment use amphetamine in combination with writing. Helps against writers block too. ;) kidding, its a good point, but not 'universal'. If you know exactly what to write you're gonna need care for max speed. Err. Hmm. :confused:

Look, if I can't say anything about portrait, why should you? let it go. didn't you hear them? Or is this just for me, and not the rest?

fnordianslip

2009-09-28, 19:59

Now I get it. There's one main use-case for single handed operation that nobody has mentioned explicitly. Onanism.
I rest my case.

GeraldKo

2009-09-28, 22:11

Now I get it. There's one main use-case for single handed operation that nobody has mentioned explicitly. Onanism.
I rest my case.

I've heard a lot of nicknames for it, but "my case" is a new one for me.

allnameswereout

2009-09-28, 23:04

I guess it might be just me, but I would hope that when holding one's baby, the person's primary focus would be on the baby (those things can be so encumbering......)Try be babysitter and have one sleeping in your arm for hours. :p

daperl

2009-09-28, 23:20

mobile qwerty blows

ysss

2009-09-28, 23:58

Now I get it. There's one main use-case for single handed operation that nobody has mentioned explicitly. Onanism.
I rest my case.

Someone has tried that...

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=319472&highlight=private+parts#post319472

fnordianslip

2009-09-29, 00:32

Someone has tried that...

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=319472&highlight=private+parts#post319472
Ah, indeed. Great minds think alike. Presumably a hairy-Palm Pre would be better for this usage ...

ysss

2009-09-29, 00:48

Ah, indeed. Great minds think alike. Presumably a hairy-Palm Pre would be better for this usage ...

Thank you, SIR.
You're a gentleman and a scholar (with hairy palms).

ogahyellow

2009-09-29, 02:37

ogahyellow, assuming those are the only relevant portrait mode use cases totally ignores one of the greatest devices of the decade, the N95, which ushered in the totally portrait mobile computing we see today. You can do ANYthing in portrait with relative ease and convenience, as the N95 showed. I've composed and posted 99% of all my blog posts, device reviews, articles and market analysis reports, including images, from my N95 or other one handed review devices, so I know firsthand. I don't even use PCs anymore, and doing so now is a big shock. (my device is broken, my backups are on loan or sold because I'm financially struggling, and I have to wait for a gifted N900 to get mobile again) You might need to research the N95 and N97's rabid user base and find out exactly what can be done in one hand in portrait nowadays.

I don't think we can compare the N95 to the N900 so simply. We are looking at 2 different form factors. I think a more accurate comparison would be with the plethora of windows mobile devices, and those android devices that share the same form factor as the N900. Hell, you could even throw in the SideKick as a comparison for the use cases.

I see where you are coming from with the comparison, but look at how your input got into the N95. The default was portrait mode. How I longed for an N95 in landscape. I took a trip to NYC just to go to the Nokia store and check out the N97 and was totally underwhelmed. The N900 blew my socks off (I had to take a trip up the turnpike for that too!).

My opinion is just that, an opinion. I think a well-implemented ASR would be a bear. Now my limited development experience is in PHP for web, and what little I have done in my university classes.

ysss

2009-09-29, 02:48

Does the N95 even have useable landscape data input mechanism?
AFAIK it only has a keypad that works in portrait mode. The landscape mode is triggered when you slide the screen to the other side, exposing the multimedia keys and COVERING the main keypad. Even if you can force it to landscape with the keypad uncovered, then it'd be really awkward to 'write' with a sideways T9 keypad.

Mandibela

2009-09-29, 07:24

I guess. I just said something that you didn't agree with, so I'm spreading bad vibes. I'll say what I like, and I'm tired of being told not to speak. If you don't like it, email your moderater buddy and tell them. I'm done playing nice. I'm grown too. So if you don't like what I have to say, just don't respond. I'm going to act like all the old heads here. I don't give a flip. I'm here for me, and not you.

ok, maybe I should have said the issue for me was how you was sayin' it, not 'don't ever speak in here' - that was my point. There's nothing wrong with your message. Only thing to your person I have to say is that you're, if it's good to be passionate, gettin too personal isn't. And no, I ain't goin to mods and tell when I'm getting a little feedback.

This to all Chris' followers too, ASR system-wide is getting done, maybe as soon as next year. This has clearly been stated by Nokia, with harmattan. You can update fremantle to it when it's done and ready.

ny900

2009-10-19, 23:15

Someone has tried that...

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=319472&highlight=private+parts#post319472

You dudes are sick :D:p,...my type of ppl.

But I live in NY and will need one handed support for evening rush hour on the train. My pmp right now is the ONDA vx777 which has no portrait support and it ain't easy changing songs on that thing when the train is packed and moving.

christexaport

2009-10-19, 23:46

I don't have followers. Who am I, Jesus?? LOL. I have supporters and people that share my opinion. And I WAS taking things to personally. I'm medicated now, and all is cool.

joshua.maverick

2009-10-20, 04:31

lol Portrait is necessary, its better to please everyone by having both, then just the landscappers. I don't get how this was even an argument.

JayOnThaBeat

2009-10-20, 04:34

lol Portrait is necessary, its better to please everyone by having both, then just the landscappers. I don't get how this was even an argument.

It's not as simple as "snap my fingers and poof! portrait support!"... Some developers don't want it because it can be a pain in the as$ to code. Others don't want it just to mess with Chris (I'd imagine ;)).

Do I need to bump my Portrait Indifference thread???

qgil

2009-10-20, 04:47

fwiw in the last days we have been answering to proposals related to portrait support in Brainstorm.

Some of them have been moved to Under Development in Fremantle (http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/list/in_development/fremantle/) or Harmattan (http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/list/in_development/harmattan/). Other proposals are still Under Consideration (http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/list/ideas/fremantle/) and your votes and solutions are welcome.

Your Talk discussions are good but condensing such discussions in Brainstorm proposals with interesting solutions and wide community support reflected trhough plenty of votes is much more effective.

joshua.maverick

2009-10-20, 05:17

It's not as simple as "snap my fingers and poof! portrait support!"... Some developers don't want it because it can be a pain in the as$ to code. Others don't want it just to mess with Chris (I'd imagine ;)).

Do I need to bump my Portrait Indifference thread???

No, I understand its not a "poof" thing. I'm saying the debate didn't make sense, it should have been there from the beginning. If its a pain in the *** for devs, suck it up, or find someone to "port" your app to portrait. It's necessary, it's expected, and now it is on its way. :)

christexaport

2009-10-20, 13:53

...and I'm happy it is. :DI just wish they'd quit messing with me. Boys don't know I'm a beast, but its all good. I know most of these guys wouldn't dare do it in person. :p Except Jay. That cat is just crazy, period.

CrashandDie

2009-10-20, 14:31

No, I understand its not a "poof" thing. I'm saying the debate didn't make sense, it should have been there from the beginning. If its a pain in the *** for devs, suck it up, or find someone to "port" your app to portrait. It's necessary, it's expected, and now it is on its way. :)

Nice way to alienate any develop who reads this. A lot of people (read, developers, they're people too) spend a lot of time and effort writing applications, and enabling them with features they might not use or find useful, simply because people request them.

Attacking them with a "suck it up, you're just a coding animal" really isn't a very nice way of showing the respect they deserve. As always, features need to be weighed before they are considered into a project. Screen rotation is such a feature. Sometimes it can be beneficial, sometimes it doesn't make any sense at all. There's no unique rule, especially when you look at the wealth of different applications we have on this platform.

YoDude

2009-10-20, 15:30

lol Portrait is necessary, its better to please everyone by having both, then just the landscappers. I don't get how this was even an argument.

I don't think that there originaly was an argument about it eventualy being a feature. The discusion was over the choice to either release Maemo5 now with limited ASR or to wait until universal ASR was supported.

Some of the statements that were argued were made to support that early release decision and some of the arguments were from folks who either needed roadmap clarification, hadn't read the complete thread they were responding to and had taken statements out of context, or had a self serving agenda to promote.

So in that case, I agree with you, there never should have been an argument. All one had to do was wait for universal ASR to be released before purchasing if they wanted it in a Maemo device. :)

chemist

2009-10-20, 15:46

I cant believe you guys still discuss a topic thats not even worth thinking of.
It has been said (100 times) that ASR is one of a nice feature, it has been said (100 times) that ASR is hell of a work for developers if implemented to their apps BUT its the choice of the dev team! make it ASR compatible if you like, make it manualy rotatable if you like, make it portrait only if landscape is useless make it landscape only if portrait is useless. If you decided to not implement it on request, ask for help but dont bark that its the hell useless and you wont do it for the sake of mankind. If you are user and want the cam in portrait **** rotate the **** phone, the one button is hardware and reachable single handedly!

this just had to be said!

I'm struggling around in this talk-forum for some days now and its already growing angry on me

christexaport

2009-10-21, 01:08

I don't think that there originaly was an argument about it eventualy being a feature. The discusion was over the choice to either release Maemo5 now with limited ASR or to wait until universal ASR was supported.
Since I was at the center of the argument(s), and the starter of the threads in question, let ME clear up a misconception. It wasn't suggesting releasing the N900 with or without ASR. Read every post I've made, and that was never said, and I don't remember anyone else saying it but the developers and old heads here.

I asked on behalf of the Symbian Freak Community that either Nokia or the community provide an ASR solution since it was a most wanted feature. I thought the dev connection and work we've done with mobiles would create a bond, since our communities are so similar (we like hacking, open systems, transparency, etc...), but nothing is ever what you expect.

I'd never want a device delayed, and being a long time and seasoned Symbian user, I'm accustomed to getting devices with lacking, beta-ish firmware. I have faith from previous experience that within 4-6 months, the device will be nearly perfect. I just wanted either the Maemo platform devs at Nokia to commit to a future solution we all knew wasn't going to be there on release, or reject it, during which I'd work on getting a community solution task force started on a solution of our own.

I'd heard it millions of times that I/we/others wanted the device release held back, and I was clear that wasn't my wish, and in fact I wanted it EARLY, and still do. I just wanted the desktops and widgets to rotate mostly, along with the general menus. But most of the community here did not agree with me, but opposed the idea, and thought I should stick with Symbian, since the TMO community had been using an Internet Tablet, and they didn't see the smartphone usage models fitting the N900.

Now Nokia has made the decision I wanted, and all is well. For those so HAPPY there is no ASR, I hope its arrival doesn't kill your joy too much, because it will only mean more users and more support for the platform.

joshua.maverick

2009-10-21, 01:10

christexaport

2009-10-21, 01:14

I think developers should cater to the user, not just try to keep app development easy. What good is an app if its a pain to use the device? Shouldn't the main focus for a products producer be its consumers? Or themselves? As a businessman and entrepreneur, I don't see how folks don't get that. You live and die on your users, and if they're not happy, someone else will make them happy. I want MORE users, not easier times making apps for less of them.

Laughing Man

2009-10-21, 01:17

christexaport

2009-10-21, 01:23

Nice way to alienate any develop who reads this. A lot of people (read, developers, they're people too) spend a lot of time and effort writing applications, and enabling them with features they might not use or find useful, simply because people request them.

Attacking them with a "suck it up, you're just a coding animal" really isn't a very nice way of showing the respect they deserve. As always, features need to be weighed before they are considered into a project. Screen rotation is such a feature. Sometimes it can be beneficial, sometimes it doesn't make any sense at all. There's no unique rule, especially when you look at the wealth of different applications we have on this platform.
I agree, CrashandDie, but the developers have to follow the same creed. If you expect to be treated with respect, you must give it. I'm not talking about you or anyone in particular, but everyone in general.

I was mostly offended because at SF and MF, we treat developers like gods and rockstars. Ask Sittiphol Phanvilai, FCA00000, Dr. Jukka, Wook, Samir Oueldi, and various others we honor as legends, and donate money to help them buy devices, pay bills, drink beer and coffee, and enjoy something for their hard work. I want to name my first child Sitti Samir McFann for my two favorite developers. If they put dev's faces on trading cards, I could sell mounds of them, and many guys decide to become devs because of the respect we bestow on them in our community.

I can tell there are hundreds of those guys here, maybe even more talented, but they should learn that the users are the ones that will make them live on in infamy, and make their apps and projects household names. I approach this place with much respect, because this is the Nokia version of xda, and I think its better. We all need each other, so when users make suggestions, remember, its just a suggestion, and if you can't or don't want to implement it, maybe someone else will.

christexaport

2009-10-21, 01:24

Depends on what the developer's goal is. For example, sometimes the developer makes an application simply for himself/herself. If someone else finds it useful then great! If not, then oh well, it works for him/her.
Maemo's apps are like that many times, I've learned. Well that needs to change. Think community. This OS is open, and the community provided to serve YOU, so giving back with the community in mind will make for better experiences and apps for everyone.

ysss

2009-10-21, 01:54

@chris: how long have you been in this 'open sauce' business?
i suggest you delve a bit deeper and longer before pushing your foot further in your mouth with all these baseless cheerleading talk :)

christexaport

2009-10-21, 02:10

thanks for the suggestion, ysss. I'll tastefully ignore it. And by the way, why don't you delve a little deeper into my experience level and knowledge of the smartphone market after you push your foot in your own mouth? I'm neither a cheerleader, nor someone who speaks on subjects that are baseless, but a longtime promoter of mobile technology. Why not ask the various folks who know about mobiles and my relationship with its various communities about me, because I promise you don't know much about me.

I find you to be offbase, but when you have something useful to add, I'm all ears. It takes alot of energy to be a force, more to be a movement, but little to be a jerk. More energy, or just focus on someone else.

christexaport

2009-10-21, 02:15

why must God test me with fools? I'm trying to let guys like ysss make it, but some guys just have to be haters with nary an encouraging word.

If ysss is so bothered by my words, please help him ignore them. He has a TV, PC, and mobile devices to play with, right?

christexaport

2009-10-21, 02:18

now that I think about it, why do you say I put my foot in my mouth? And why do you call me a cheerleader? Do you not know any mobile tech promoters? You should appreciate anyone working to promote your favored OS, shouldn't you?

joshua.maverick

2009-10-21, 02:22

@ysss, you seem like a developer... I love you.

Laughing Man

2009-10-21, 02:22

Maemo's apps are like that many times, I've learned. Well that needs to change. Think community. This OS is open, and the community provided to serve YOU, so giving back with the community in mind will make for better experiences and apps for everyone.

Yeah... that's not going happen. The community doesn't serve the developer, the developer serves himself/herself depending on the application. Though most developers are nice enough to make it easy to use and fix bugs as they are reported as well as take criticism into account But they're not going add a feature like portrait mode unless one of these 3 happens.

a) it's easy (aka it won't take them very much time)
b) they benefit from it (do they use portrait mode enough)
c) they get paid (self-explanatory)

There seems to be a wide range of types of developers though, from people who will be more than happy to implement what the community wants (depending on time). To developers who could give less a **** what you want and just do what they want. (e.g. Pidgin for a while). And at that time, the project just tends to fork and go down different paths.

ysss

2009-10-21, 02:50

Oh please, he couldn't develop film in a darkroom :D

lol.. thank goodness for digital cameras.

Well, i used to have to code in the past..

joshua.maverick

2009-10-21, 04:57

I recant my love.

christexaport

2009-10-21, 15:22

Yeah... that's not going happen. The community doesn't serve the developer, the developer serves himself/herself depending on the application.
This could become an impediment, but from the developers I know from other OSes migrating here, it will surely change. Symbian OSes devs don't usually follow this slant, which is probably due to their celebrated status in our communities.

Though most developers are nice enough to make it easy to use and fix bugs as they are reported as well as take criticism into account But they're not going add a feature like portrait mode unless one of these 3 happens.

a) it's easy (aka it won't take them very much time)
b) they benefit from it (do they use portrait mode enough)
c) they get paid (self-explanatory)
a) seems a cop out, but working for free, I get that, totally. Its Nokia/Maemo's job to make it easier.
b) should be pretty easy. If a majority or large contingent of the community should benefit, there's a good chance a dev would too, and possibly contribute to the project.
c) is something I'm all for, and I used to have a warchest to "prod" devs to do things for community. This won't change, though I'm not working anymore, so extra funds have dwindled the past couple years. I'm an excellent fundraiser, and will start finding projects and gathering funds once I get my N900. Today's my born on date, and I don't celebrate Bdays (I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses) I'd have loved to celebrate getting the N900 today...

There seems to be a wide range of types of developers though, from people who will be more than happy to implement what the community wants (depending on time). To developers who could give less a **** what you want and just do what they want. (e.g. Pidgin for a while). And at that time, the project just tends to fork and go down different paths.
I've noticed, and most of the feedback from devs has been much better lately. In fact, the list of guys with little more to offer than selfish rudeness and attitude has dwindled to a small group of less than ten. Getting rid of those few bad apples from the productive mix won't be hard at all. I seem to have already shaken one pretty easily. Life is good.

christexaport

2009-10-21, 15:25

I recant my love.

"IIIIIIIIIIIII keeeeep on faaaaaaaaaalling... in and oooooooooout... of loove... with you..." LOL Nothing like a little roller coaster bromance.

joshua.maverick

2009-10-21, 15:27

We need to close this thread before chris goes all chapelle/mr.west on us again lol.

christexaport

2009-10-21, 15:32

Believe me, I'm good. I had a hard mental health week on a big stage, but its a rare occurance. I don't mind kicking butt at times, but I don't let fools and rudeness affect me. I'm Black. I've been stepped on most of my life. A fool here and there is highly tolerable, to be honest. I'd be more worried about the jerks that have no sense of decorum or manners. Some people didn't have good mothers. Not their fault they're idiots with no social skills. We need to keep threads open and work on them closing their mouths when nothing helpful comes out. Works for me.