N900 and UMTS Band IX (Japan E-Mobile)?

[Otaku]

Hi,

Let me start by saying I know very little about cellular technology, so forgive me if I'm using terms incorrectly.

I'm planning on using the N900 in Japan. There are a number of different networks here. I'm pretty sure the N900 will work with Softbank, which runs on W-CDMA on 2100 MHz.

What I was wondering is if the N900 will support so-called UMTS Band IX, which runs on 1700 MHz and is used by the E-Mobile carrier here in Japan. Unfortunately it seems that this 1700 MHz is different from the N900 "1700 MHz" support, which seems to refer to UMTS Band IV.

So... is there a possibility the N900 could run on the UMTS Band IX? Or is this impossible because of hardware limitations?

I was thinking about importing a UK version into Japan, but if it won't work with all the carriers here, then maybe I should wait for a localized version (if it is even possible in hardware).

EDIT: Also, if I import a UK version, and later an updated firmware becomes available supporting UMTS Band IX, it should be possible to update my existing UK device with the new firmware right? Another thread here seemed to suggest that changing the frequencies of the cellular radio is something end users shouldn't be able to do, so it's not clear if this kind of frequency-changing firmware upgrade would be possible or not.

Thanks!

[wmarone]

Hi,
What I was wondering is if the N900 will support so-called UMTS Band IX, which runs on 1700 MHz and is used by the E-Mobile carrier here in Japan. Unfortunately it seems that this 1700 MHz is different from the N900 "1700 MHz" support, which seems to refer to UMTS Band IV.

I wasn't aware there were GSM-based providers in Japan other than SoftBank. Aside from that, it seems that all N900 units are the same save the keyboard (as far as I know) so getting a UK one over a US one may be a moot point.

Got any links to this provider, or information on them?

[spinnukur]

Same as wmarone, I believe it's only Softbank with GSM in Japan unless something has changed within the past year.

[Otaku]

Got any links to this provider, or information on them?

Sure. In general, E-Mobile offers flat-rate data plans and recently have added voice plans. The flat rate data is 5000 yen per month with zero monthly fee for the voice (billed as needed).

Some links:

Here, see the first comment in the bottom that says "But EMobile has since constructed its own network towers and its devices run on 1700mhz (UMTS Band IX)."
http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news-18664-EMOBILE+and+Huawei+Launch+Japan'+s+First+Commercia l+HSPA%2B+Network.html/umts

Here, see some Japanese guys talking about differences between Band IV and Band IX and lamenting that Band IX isn't supported:
http://excite.co.jp/world/english/web/?wb_url=http%3A%2F%2Fkiyonari.japazine.com%2Fsl%2F nokia%2Fpost-1127.html&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_dis=2

Here, see some poor guy trying to get an iPhone working on E-Mobile, but it doesn't work because the iPhone doesn't support 1700 MHz. Search for the comment, "EMobile in Japan is a pure 1700 Mhz network":
http://www.mobileinjapan.com/group/iphoneinjapan/forum/topics/set-up-an-iphone-in-emobiles

Here, another confirmation that E-Mobile uses Band IX:
http://androidcommunity.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-19681.html

More comments about Band IX in E-Mobile; search for "Carrier e-Mobile in Japan also runs UMTS 1700, and has already released a handful of "UMTS 1700" WinMo handsets. However their band is specifically the UMTS band IX which is not compatible with T-mobile's UMTS band IV.":
http://www.wmexperts.com/articles/xperia_x1_to_come_to_tmobile_w.html

E-mobile's home page (in Japanese though) is, predictably, http://emobile.jp.

So... feasible to use an E-Mobile sim card (they call it "EM Chip" but it seems to be a regular sim, since someone managed to put it in an iPhone) in the N900?

[wmarone]

Hmm, didn't know the 1700 range was divided up like that. It's likely, in that case, the N900 (and most EU/US 1700) phones won't work. I wouldn't be suprised.

The mobile landscape in Japan is so bizzare. I guess that probably comes with the territory when they're also incredibly progressive. I had a cheapo Sanyo with Qualcomm 3G back in 2003, and still don't have a 3G phone here in the 'states (though if I jump to T-Mobile when I get my N900 I will...)

それで、ほかの携帯オタクがN900を買うまで待ちましょうか。

Edit:
Now I notice this:
ところで、EMのHTC機はUSのTMで動くと聞きましたが、N900とは
違う帯域構成を取っているのかなあ？？
Roughly: "By the way, I heard EM's HTC devices are compatible with T-Mobile's US service, would the N900 work in other regions?"

Makes me wonder what chips the HTC devices are using, and if those same chips are used in the EU released models.

[Otaku]

Hmm, didn't know the 1700 range was divided up like that. It's likely, in that case, the N900 (and most EU/US 1700) phones won't work. I wouldn't be suprised.


Well, my backup plan is to put my Softbank prepaid sim card into the N900 for voice calling (which I am 99% sure will work, as other people put their prepaid Softbank sims into imported phones with success), and use a portable WiFi router connected to an E-Mobile 3G modem for the N900's Internet access (the router makes the E-Mobile 3G modem appear just like a WiFi hotspot to the N900 - again, a combination that has been reported to work). A bit more gear to lug around, but it will work.


それで、ほかの携帯オタクがN900を買うまで待ちましょうか。

今の所、N900よりいい端末は無いんじゃないでしょう。特にLinuxについて。Linuxの携帯がどう してもほしいので、N900しかないのかなあ。

オタク

[wmarone]

Well, my backup plan is to put my Softbank prepaid sim card into the N900 for voice calling (which I am 99% sure will work, as other people put their prepaid Softbank sims into imported phones with success), and use a portable WiFi router connected to an E-Mobile 3G modem for the N900's Internet access (the router makes the E-Mobile 3G modem appear just like a WiFi hotspot to the N900 - again, a combination that has been reported to work). A bit more gear to lug around, but it will work.
Sounds like you've got a plan then, I'll be looking to hear your reports.


今の所、N900よりいい端末は無いんじゃないでしょう。特にLinuxについて。Linuxの携帯がどう してもほしいので、N900しかないのかなあ。

オタク
本当だね。たくさんの日本携帯はLinuxを使うんだけど、一個もないはN900のように開けている(?) 。

Which brings up another question, how do you phrase "open" in the sense that the N900 is "open?" (as this thread slides slightly off-topic...)

[Otaku]

Which brings up another question, how do you phrase "open" in the sense that the N900 is "open?" (as this thread slides slightly off-topic...)

Not that I'm an expert in such matters, but I hear the natives around me saying オープン a lot. Though I suppose there is probably a non-kana way of saying this, probably involving phrases like 自由に and the like.

[Xisdibik]

I do not know about the 1700 Mhz issue in Japan. I do know that when I've taken my mobile phones to Japan they connected on the 2100 Mhz frequency with both NTT DoCoMo and Softbank (predominantly I was on Softbank), really though 3G is almost everwhere, I had 3G/HSDPA signal through the places I went minus tunnels on the Shinkansen (bullet trains). And I went from Tokyo > Osaka > Kyoto > Osaka > Hakata > Miyazaki > Kagoshima > Kumamoto > Hakata > Osaka > Tokyo > Nikko > Tokyo

I will say that as a foreigner im surprised you were able to get a Softbank Contract, I heard that Japan is being more restrictive with foreigners and Japanese mobile contracts.

[Otaku]

I do not know about the 1700 Mhz issue in Japan. I do know that when I've taken my mobile phones to Japan they connected on the 2100 Mhz frequency with both NTT DoCoMo and Softbank (predominantly I was on Softbank)

Right, the N900 will probably work with Japanese carriers that use 2100 MHz. The question is the Band IX, that apparently is only used by the E-Mobile carrier here in Japan and nowhere else in the world. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMTS_frequency_bands) Still I guess there's hope that Nokia may support this band if they bring out a version targeted at Japan.

The good thing about E-Mobile, and the reason I was hoping I could use an E-Mobile sim card in the N900 directly, is that it is specifically designed for data transfer and PC tethering with flat-rate unlimited usage; they even sell a phone specifically designed to tether to a PC, including explicit instructions in the manual how to hook the phone to a PC for PC-based data transfers. In contrast to this, Softbank's 3G flat-rate data plan is supposed to be used on the iPhone only and Softbank apparently may hit you with a huge bill if you tether to your PC because it's not supported, and Softbank goes out of its way to try to prevent tethering at a technical level. So I imagine Softbank would frown on using their sim card and their flat-rate data plan with an unapproved and open device like the N900.

I will say that as a foreigner im surprised you were able to get a Softbank Contract, I heard that Japan is being more restrictive with foreigners and Japanese mobile contracts.

The prepaid ones are easier to get, but they have no data plan, as I mentioned, which is why I'm looking at a separate E-Mobile data plan.

[liveslow]

じゃぁ、このトッピクを読んでから、もう一遍日本語を話したいよ。。。

[Xisdibik]

I read in another article posted here (sorry it was months ago no link :( ) that talked about how if a device can transmit in the "1700mhz" range that the bands IX etc are all software based (and could therefore maybe be editted. No idea if they were right or not, but it could help you.

You might also check NTT DoCoMo and see what their plans and data costs are, maybe they are nicer than SoftBank. Most of my friends in japan all use NTT DoCoMo so that might say something ;)

Im planning to head out there again in January (with my n900 :D)

[tenoclock]

I would probably just send an email to Nokia and ask directly since this phone is not released yet. I know those usually gets no where, so the trick is to just ask directly like "is the 1700mhz band using IV or IX" and don't even include the reason why you are asking. Usually that's where the low level email support people go "wtf?" and ask their technical lead. If you include too much they would just try to find a reason to deflect the email.

Good luck man.

[Otaku]

In case anyone is interested, I posted some alternatives to E-Mobile here: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=342438#post342438

Given that E-mobile support seems iffy because of the weird UMTS Band IX, I'm not ready to fork out for a 2-year contract if the sim card won't work in the N900, so I think I'll go with one of the alternatives posted in the other thread I linked to.