View Full Version : MeeGo a whole new Linux ballgame
Here we go...
http://www.allmeegodevices.com/2010/02/17/meego-a-whole-new-linux-ballgame/
:)
benny1967
2010-02-17, 21:14
congratulations. ;)
Freemantle
2010-02-17, 21:14
By now you have probably heard of MeeGo the new OS being created by the synergy between Nokia and Intel. MeeGo is going to be a completely new Free Software Linux based OS. The most striking difference between MeeGo and Maemo, Nokia’s current Linux based OS, is that Maemo was for the most part a Debian derivative, while MeeGo will not be directly based on any existing distribution
step 4 out of 5 doesn't really count anymore. Like the article says this is a new ballgame.
benny1967
2010-02-17, 21:20
step 4 out of 5 doesn't really count anymore. Like the article says this is a new ballgame.
oh come on.... they didn't exactly re-invent the wheel, did they?
oh come on.... they didn't exactly re-invent the wheel, did they?
I guess it depends on what step 5 was. I think it had more to do with the Qt layer than with the OS innards.
step 4 out of 5 doesn't really count anymore. Like the article says this is a new ballgame.
More like it's the bottom of the ninth and Android is ahead so we brought in a pinch hitter.
More like it's the bottom of the ninth and Android is ahead so we brought in a pinch hitter.
Ha, ha. Yeah, that works too. :D
More like it's the bottom of the ninth and Android is ahead so we brought in a pinch hitter.
The pocketable computer OS war is just getting started, it's more like the second or third inning.
The pocketable computer OS war is just getting started, it's more like the second or third inning.
Good Point. In any case, it is going to be a whole new ball game for the Maemo community.
R.Habrat
2010-02-17, 23:14
It's hard to believe they would plan to make MeeGo from scratch.
A dozen years ago there was a pretty, useful, responsive, multitasking OS named EPOC, dedicated for touchscreen and keyboard.
Symbian should have been based upon it (was declared as next version of EPOC), but it seems they decided to create it from scratch. Today, ten years later, Symbian is still a crap (from a power user point of view) in comparison to old EPOC. Would they want to repeat such a failure?
It all sounds good and well, the only reason I got into this whole thing was Nokia made the first internet tablet and I was born wanting to surf the net on Sunday morning from my internet t tablet (as my palm or laptop didn't cut it)
What got me existed with maemo as a Linux newbie, who has no programming experience, was the fact that Linux enthusiasts had ported programs to do everything I could think of. My maemo device is now used to remote desktop into my office or home over a secure SSH connection. Imbedded Linux has offend a solution that allows me to run may computers turn them on and off remotely reducing my energy footprint and meeting greater eco mandates The practical implantation of VOIP solutions have made it almost indispensable. (I can now envision retirement with technology at my call without the comprehensive monthly cell phone plan and all the other web 2.0 services amortised over 15 year. )
All the custom solutions I have implemented are built on experience Debian related enthusiasts have brought to the table - this transfer of knowledge is progress.
All in all the existing Linux community with the help of Nokia's maemo have delivered on what I believe is "progress" enabling a paradigm sift in evolution of technology.
I don't know what MeeGo will brings to the table but I fear it looks something more like iPhone OS, Android or Palms's WebOS that enables a business model that are not progress or consumer centric .
None of the resulting Linux based OS's above have been able to deliver what maemo has done and I believe it has only happened because of the community support and existing experience.
Dumping the community's experience, paralyses my need and cripples progress. If I could give my $0.02 Nokia should have played out the experiment before cashing in on a tangible business opportunity.
oh come on.... they didn't exactly re-invent the wheel, did they?
More like threw the wheel away.
It all sounds good and well, the only reason I got into this whole thing was Nokia made the first internet tablet and I was born wanting to surf the net on Sunday morning from my internet t tablet (as my palm or laptop didn't cut it)
What got me existed with maemo as a Linux newbie, who has no programming experience, was the fact that Linux enthusiasts had ported programs to do everything I could think of. My maemo device is now used to remote desktop into my office or home over a secure SSH connection. Imbedded Linux has offend a solution that allows me to run may computers turn them on and off remotely reducing my energy footprint and meeting greater eco mandates The practical implantation of VOIP solutions have made it almost indispensable. (I can now envision retirement with technology at my call without the comprehensive monthly cell phone plan and all the other web 2.0 services amortised over 15 year. )
All the custom solutions I have implemented are built on experience Debian related enthusiasts have brought to the table - this transfer of knowledge is progress.
All in all the existing Linux community with the help of Nokia's maemo have delivered on what I believe is "progress" enabling a paradigm sift in evolution of technology.
I don't know what MeeGo will brings to the table but I fear it looks something more like iPhone OS, Android or Palms's WebOS that enables a business model that are not progress or consumer centric .
None of the resulting Linux based OS's above have been able to deliver what maemo has done and I believe it has only happened because of the community support and existing experience.
Dumping the community's experience, paralyses my need and cripples progress. If I could give my $0.02 Nokia should have played out the experiment before cashing in on a tangible business opportunity.
I think your concerns are certainly valid. MeeGo is certainly unproven. There is a a high degree of difficulty in making a distro that appeals to the techy community. But, from what I have seen, both Nokia and Intel whant to do 'the right thing'. Also, the existing mailing lists show that MeeGo is willing to listen and discuss these issues. I have a good feeling about it so far.
...they walked out on the current game...
...teamed up with another club to create a new one with a crappy name...
...and left the audience standing, holding flags with the old team's name, with no one to cheer on...
... well ok, not really, we're waiting to be moved to the new stadium and see how the new game will play out.
Excuse me guys: what are you talking about?
Intel and Nokia have proven good knowledge of Linux and free desktop develolpment. Look the code repositories and ask the maintainers if you don't trust this.
Moblin and Maemo have very similar software stacks. MeeGo is about picking what is already common and agreeing on the resolution of the diffs.
So from a technical point of view this is not a new game at all. It's a pure natural evolution. We would have taken the MeeGo OS with handset UX, we would have called it "Maemo 6 platform" and the majority of talk.maemo.org would have continued with whatever they were discussing without noticing the change.
The new ballgame comes from the business side: a neutral Linux mobile distro hosted by the Linux Foundation and open to all vendors.
Why an N900 user thinks that s/he is loosing something with MeeGo is beyond rational thinking. Sure, the unclarity about MeeGo being officially supported in the N900 invites such reactions beyond rationality. But that uncertainty (that no, we can't solve here and now) was already with Maemo 6 in the horizon. MeeGo brings more application developement attention sooner to the N900 and brings also a more solid platform able to deal with several types of devices.
So really, whatever N900 users had last week has improved significantly with the launch of MeeGo. If you think this is not true please explain why.
Jim Zemlin from the Linux Foundation is surely a good reading to understand the kind of ballgame MeeGo is: http://www.linux.com/news/featured-blogs/158-jim-zemlin/286723-bringing-the-magic-to-linux-with-meego-
Excuse me guys: what are you talking about?
(...)
Why an N900 user thinks that s/he is loosing something with MeeGo is beyond rational thinking.
Quim, there is nothing irrational about this at all. Technical issues, indeed, are irrelevant.
What we are seeing here is a bunch of people who feel they have invested their time and/or trust and/or work, over the past few months or years, in a community project that had a clear brand, roadmap and stewardship, and was starting to take shape after a lot of effort (including yours).
Now, all of a sudden, it looks like all three (brand, roadmap and stewardship) have been discarded overnight in favour of the Intel/Nokia partnership, which clearly has huge potential on several fronts, but also has precious little in the way of community scaffolding and guidelines. It definitely feels like starting all over again : the "culture" shock between maemo and moblin already happening over at meego.com reeks of déjà vu, like when ITT was folded into maemo.org not so long ago.
This thread and its siblings are just the aimless milling around of people with questions and no answers: people who felt they "fit in" maemo.org, and need to know if/how/when they might "fit in" meego.com and not let their previous involvement be wasted. Simple as that.
You do realise that as a community we will have more control over MeeGo?
Eventually it will mean anyone can get involved in the development of the platform and not rely in a single entity to continue it's development in the future.
Maemo is begining to "grow up" and experience growing pains now. Hopefully soon things will get easier.
Let's give this a chance and see what happens. The more we can participate in a positive way the more we can shape the platform to serve us as well as commercial entities.
It will mean a more openly developed platform which means older devices will be able to take advantage of this.
RenegadeFanboy
2010-02-18, 11:36
This thread and its siblings are just the aimless milling around of people with questions and no answers: people who felt they "fit in" maemo.org, and need to know if/how/when they might "fit in" meego.com and not let their previous involvement be wasted. Simple as that.
So, may I offer you an aim? Come and help form MeeGo, propose to have the same (or better) Talk, give your opinion on the look and structure of the MeeGo homepage, sign up for the Community workgroup (http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Community_working_group) :)
You can make sure that meego is a new, improved home for all of us, but contributing yourself :)
RevdKathy
2010-02-18, 11:39
So, may I offer you an aim? Come and help form MeeGo, propose to have the same (or better) Talk, give your opinion on the look and structure of the MeeGo homepage, sign up for the Community workgroup (http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Community_working_group) :)
You can make sure that meego is a new, improved home for all of us, but contributing yourself :)
True, but the sooner we get a good forum for talking at MeegGo.com the better. Not all of us are terribly comfortable with either mailing lists or IRC. There has already been some complaints about #meego chats. If there were some sort of forum/board/talk-place, I think people would be there instead of here.
So, may I offer you an aim? Come and help form MeeGo, propose to have the same (or better) Talk, give your opinion on the look and structure of the MeeGo homepage, sign up for the Community workgroup (http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Community_working_group) :)
You can make sure that meego is a new, improved home for all of us, but contributing yourself :)
Sure, I'm signed up over there since day one, and fully intend to do that.
But where's the forum ? :-)
RevdKathy
2010-02-18, 12:39
Sure, I'm signed up over there since day one, and fully intend to do that.
But where's the forum ? :-)
There isn't one... yet. Give them time.
Not all systems base around a forum: moblin has functioned perfectly well without one.
I happen to think that MeeGo needs one, and I'm pleased to see that Reggie is one of the people signed up for the community working party, as I think that bodes well for talk.meego.com or whatever.
Maybe we need to find a way t make that desire known fairly briskly.
daemonfin
2010-02-18, 13:28
What happens to Nokia's hands boot video?
There isn't one... yet. Give them time.
Not all systems base around a forum: moblin has functioned perfectly well without one.
Always the kind one. IMHO "perfectly well" is debatable: after all, I've been using Maemo devices for more than four years, while I have yet to see an actual Moblin device in the wild, outside of blog pictures taken in trade shows.
But let's say you're right: in any case, it has functioned as a softare engineering project, with a mailing list, a bugzilla, an IRC and a technical wiki, not as a community in the Nokia/Maemo sense.
What I'm seeing of the Moblin heritage on meego.com is strongly reminiscent of the maemo.org side of things two years ago, before Internet Tablet Talk was integrated as TMO. The ongoing culture shock there is much the same, if you abstract the technical feuds.
So yes, if meego.com is neither maemo.org or moblin.org, but more than the sum of its parts, it needs an unruly forum like ours :-)
The uncertainty is brought about by the severe lack of answers.
Give people a bone. Want the rampant speculation to end, then end it with pure, simple, easy answers.
Not more whitepaper talk about what MeeGo brings to the table. We mostly know it means that it'll bring the potential future Nokia OS back into where it will not be as "isolated" as an OS as before in terms of updates, et al.
But seriously. No communication(s) about the future of the existing sales (pending, actualized or otherwise) and how it'll effect people in the future is what's leading to the speculation.
You'd have to be rather daft to think otherwise. Communicate clearly for once what's going to happen - not to this forum, not about some other random stuff that's been inserted into the conversations around here - but cold, hard facts tend to silence rumors and worry.
I know what I'm saying will prove to be unpopular - I really am passed that now. But what will the N900's future be? What about the fact the first MeeGo OS phone is by LG and not Nokia? What about the upgrade - just say YES or NO.
The continued silence breeds more speculation.
...they walked out on the current game...
...teamed up with another club to create a new one with a crappy name...
...and left the audience standing, holding flags with the old team's name, with no one to cheer on...
... well ok, not really, we're waiting to be moved to the new stadium and see how the new game will play out.
I'm from Washington DC where our basketball team just finished trading away our entire starting lineup except for the player who is suspended for the rest of the year.
New ball games can be traumatic. But it's not like we're paying for season tickets. Let's all chill out.
RevdKathy
2010-02-18, 15:22
What I'm seeing of the Moblin heritage on meego.com is strongly reminiscent of the maemo.org side of things two years ago, before Internet Tablet Talk was integrated as TMO. The ongoing culture shock there is much the same, if you abstract the technical feuds.
So yes, if meego.com is neither maemo.org or moblin.org, but more than the sum of its parts, it needs an unruly forum like ours :-)
Don't worry: it will get one, in some shape or another. Hopefully in a shape that's a bit less challenging to navigate, and a bit clearer about where it's ok to natter and where one should be Serious. But it will get something analogous to t.m.o. Because people want it.
Not sure I like the ball game analogies, though. I guess I know too much about ancient Mayan balls games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_ballgame) to be comfortable. ;)
Though round here the game appears to be more like cricket: 5 days of play and still no result...
The uncertainty is brought about by the severe lack of answers.
While I agree that there are stil some unknowns, I wouldn't characterize the level of uncertainty as severe.
Give people a bone. Want the rampant speculation to end, then end it with pure, simple, easy answers.
Not more whitepaper talk about what MeeGo brings to the table. We mostly know it means that it'll bring the potential future Nokia OS back into where it will not be as "isolated" as an OS as before in terms of updates, et al.
Unfortunately, i think a lot of the answers you are looking for are still at the "whitepaper" stage. From what I see, MeeGo is not yet completely in the oven. It still hasn't left the cook's table. So, it is hard to tell what exactly its taste is going to be. All we know is that going to have some cabbage, some onions, and some potatoes. Other ingredients, like mushrooms, herring, and bacon are being debated and are likely to come as side dishes. But, we are encouraged to keep a good appetite because it is going to be tasty. :)
But seriously. No communication(s) about the future of the existing sales (pending, actualized or otherwise) and how it'll effect people in the future is what's leading to the speculation.
You'd have to be rather daft to think otherwise. Communicate clearly for once what's going to happen - not to this forum, not about some other random stuff that's been inserted into the conversations around here - but cold, hard facts tend to silence rumors and worry.
I know what I'm saying will prove to be unpopular - I really am passed that now. But what will the N900's future be? What about the fact the first MeeGo OS phone is by LG and not Nokia? What about the upgrade - just say YES or NO.
The continued silence breeds more speculation.
Yes, speculation is inevitable, but they can't give you answers they don't have. As for the N900 all I want to know is how long are they planing to support it with updates and packages. If it turns out that it can run MeeGo, cool. But, if not, it won't bother me at all. I bought the N900 because I wanted to run Maemo. I like Maemo. But, I do wish some of its kinks could be smoothed out a bit. That is why I do agree that a statement regarding N900 support is needed and shouldn't be too hard to make at this time. Hopefully, that will happen soon.
Speculation is inevitable only if you don't answer.
They'd just have to commit to something other than silence. One answer would stop the negativity and the speculation.
Speculation is inevitable only if you don't answer.
Speculation is inevitable when you don't have an answer.
They'd just have to commit to something other than silence.
OK, so say they commit to saying that MeeGo won't run on the N900 (just to be safe). But, then it turns out that it does. Will some people be upset? I think we know the answer to that. ;)
One answer would stop the negativity and the speculation.
Ha, ha. That is a good one.
Speculation is inevitable when you don't have an answer.
True. But in this case, what does it really do as a positive for Nokia to remain reticent?
OK, so say they commit to saying that MeeGo won't run on the N900 (just to be safe). But, then it turns out that it does. Will some people be upset? I think we know the answer to that.
Deal with the wrath now or deal with it later. Just doesn't help people to make an informed decision for consumers.
Ha, ha. That is a good one.
I laughed while typing it too ;)
It all sounds good and well, the only reason I got into this whole thing was Nokia made the first internet tablet and I was born wanting to surf the net on Sunday morning from my internet t tablet (as my palm or laptop didn't cut it)
What got me existed with maemo as a Linux newbie, who has no programming experience, was the fact that Linux enthusiasts had ported programs to do everything I could think of. My maemo device is now used to remote desktop into my office or home over a secure SSH connection. Imbedded Linux has offend a solution that allows me to run may computers turn them on and off remotely reducing my energy footprint and meeting greater eco mandates The practical implantation of VOIP solutions have made it almost indispensable. (I can now envision retirement with technology at my call without the comprehensive monthly cell phone plan and all the other web 2.0 services amortised over 15 year. )
All the custom solutions I have implemented are built on experience Debian related enthusiasts have brought to the table - this transfer of knowledge is progress.
All in all the existing Linux community with the help of Nokia's maemo have delivered on what I believe is "progress" enabling a paradigm sift in evolution of technology.
I don't know what MeeGo will brings to the table but I fear it looks something more like iPhone OS, Android or Palms's WebOS that enables a business model that are not progress or consumer centric .
None of the resulting Linux based OS's above have been able to deliver what maemo has done and I believe it has only happened because of the community support and existing experience.
Dumping the community's experience, paralyses my need and cripples progress. If I could give my $0.02 Nokia should have played out the experiment before cashing in on a tangible business opportunity.
It is simple: It doesnt make money and they are shoving it
It is simple: It doesnt make money and they are shoving it
This is only your sixth post in this forum and you seem to just be interested in fanning the flames. I looked at your previous posts and they all are either negative or mention Micrsoft technologies. You are the kind of people that make me paranoid.
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44856
Edit: OK, after seeing a few more of your posts I feel relieved. You are certainly not an astroturfer. Just an average troll. ;)
It is simple: It doesnt make money and they are shoving it
That's what I suspect, but by my reasoning, selling devises was the previous money maker not software, (the software can evolve exponentially while the device is rooted in the physical market) this allows the software to evolve exponentially progressing beyond just the device.
To me it now looks like Nokia are committing to selling Intel's product line, limiting the exponential progress expected from software and limiting all the development to the the physical market of manufacturing. My concern is that MeeGo will not give the freedom meomo has deliver until now. (and may be just like Android a platform to launch a monopolistic business model limiting progress.)
All in all I am optimistic some one will make a phone OS that syncs my outlook task descriptions like Palm but gives me the freedom to run native Linux aps. like maemo. if MeeGo can do it I'll hang in, but if it winds up like WebOS or Android, I may as well resign and make the switch now - because as valuable as my n900 is its not worth hanging onto if they bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6892 isn't solved.
All in all I am optimistic some one will make a phone OS that syncs my outlook task descriptions like Palm but gives me the freedom to run native Linux aps.
So get a Palm and root it.
http://www.weboshelp.net/all-webos-news-articles/451-root-your-palm-pre-more-webos-hacks-emerge
If you need software that does a particular thing and it doesn't currently exist for Maemo or Moblin then it is unlikely to exist for Meego.
So get a Palm and root it.
my technical skill ends with making a desktop icon and running existing ssh scripts and installing a .deb file. I like the 800x480 resolution GSM radio combination on the n900 - not even sure I can run SSH tunnel and rDesctop on a palm.
(You know what... this post isn't helping anything... deleting it.)
fatalsaint
2010-02-18, 23:25
Always the kind one. IMHO "perfectly well" is debatable: after all, I've been using Maemo devices for more than four years, while I have yet to see an actual Moblin device in the wild, outside of blog pictures taken in trade shows.
I've seen this a few times and let me say this:
How many have tried it? I mean.. this community is being severely impacted by another OS.. even going it's route for a packaging system.. and probably likely to use more of it's structure or base than Maemo's... just keeping Maemo's QT..
So how many of you have taken a look?
I did. It's quite nice actually.... (nice in the way that it makes me want to take a hammer to my netbook.. Don't misunderstand me - this is a good thing.. see below.)
The entire UI and system is extremely bubbly.. very "User-friendly"-like and is quite a difference from your average system. I personally hate user-friendliness and bubbly... I've never liked the Vista interface, the Mac OS X interface, the iPhone interface - and I'm not *entirely* sold on the Maemo interface (although it's a bit better). I do like the Cupcake and Donut interfaces... and am looking at the 2.1+ vids of Android on the Nexus and what not and - as is normal - the more everyone else thinks it's going great: I think it's turning ugly.
They're all.. bubbly. Give me a standard run-of-the mill gnome desktop with 3D/compiz disabled and I'm happy. But.. the general population have by and large showed that they love bubbly.. jumping icons and pretty pictures make the consumers feel fuzzy.
So... the fact that I am currently using my netbook with an OS that makes me want to throw it out the window... means that about 95% of the people of this forum will probably love it! Especially since we have a growing number of Windows and Mac users!
So really.... whether or not this OS has any hardware that comes with it by default does not mean it's lacking in quality or is somehow a bad OS. In fact it's quite nicely built from what I can tell, and short of a few annoyances I have with it (ignoring the bubbly) - certainly gets the job done.
I'm very interested to see what comes of the Moblin team joining with the Maemo team. I suspect MeeGo just might give the iPhone a run for it's money.
My concern is that MeeGo will not give the freedom meomo has deliver until now.
Do you mind elaborating?
What happens to Nokia's hands boot video?
Nokia hands get chopped off by those MeeGo-characters. It's pretty messy. :p
Frappacino
2010-02-19, 11:21
gerbick is correct
what mapkes it worse is nokia's fancy dodging. just say yes or no. n900 customers are not stupid and will understand - e.g. if it is a "no" because of hardware limitations, well, so be it.
many have seen companies do their fancy verbal dodging before, what it usually means is that the company knows the answer, but refuse to give it because they think it will hurt sales. but customers are not stupid, so customers see this behaviour and automatically assume the worse (which is usually correct), and it feeds off itself.
regardless, i think if nokia DID have plans to have meego on n900, they would have announced it with meego. the fact that this wasnt done and the constant emphasis on app backward compatibility from meego on n900 pretty much seals the deal for me stating that there will be no official meego for n900
other's opinoin may vary, but i just shake my head and teh corporate stupidity being shown here.
I've seen this a few times and let me say this:
How many have tried it? I mean.. this community is being severely impacted by another OS.. even going it's route for a packaging system.. and probably likely to use more of it's structure or base than Maemo's... just keeping Maemo's QT..
So how many of you have taken a look?
Just for the record, in the post you're answering there, I didn't mean to say that Moblin itself was something bad or good. Just that I had never seen it natively shipped on brand-name, globally available hardware like Maemo has been since 2005. This was just for the sake of disputing Kathy's "functioning perfectly well without a forum" jibe about the Moblin "community".
And yes, I've tried it on my netbook too, but had hardware support problems, and didn't like the UI, so I finally went with Mint. But maybe we just share that thing about "bubbly" :-)
fatalsaint
2010-02-19, 20:22
Just for the record, in the post you're answering there, I didn't mean to say that Moblin itself was something bad or good. Just that I had never seen it natively shipped on brand-name, globally available hardware like Maemo has been since 2005. This was just for the sake of disputing Kathy's "functioning perfectly well without a forum" jibe about the Moblin "community".
And yes, I've tried it on my netbook too, but had hardware support problems, and didn't like the UI, so I finally went with Mint. But maybe we just share that thing about "bubbly" :-)
Ah. I didn't experience any hardware issues that I've noticed yet.. but also haven't done much with it either. Just some browsing and video playback to try out the new toy.
I still maintain that Moblin not being available on anything doesn't really mean anything.. about the community or about the OS. It simply means no hardware platform has picked it up.
I'm sure the Moblin community thought they ran perfectly fine before all this mess :D. They are probably over there wondering how we manage to have a community with how these forums have looked lately ;).
Do you mind elaborating?
My concerns would be:
- invalidating warranty by gaining root access to the device.
- inability to install .deb files (worse controlling the app market)
- limiting community support by deviating from a standard Linux distro. Making it more difficult to port existing Linux apps.
- restricting little hacks like adding brightness controller to the phone menu or making an app that pauses media player when you pull the headphones out.
In essence if a conflict such as: Nokia and Intel decide it is not in there commercial interest to support "say" the .ogg format (for example). With meamo it is open enough that the community could support .ogg, and Nokia would let it be. A concern I have and it may be out of ignorance: with MeeGo is Nokia and Intel may not leave those types of conflicts open to the community to solve, but they would take an active role in securing there commercial interest at the expense of the progress the community would bring.
Ah. I didn't experience any hardware issues that I've noticed yet.. but also haven't done much with it either. Just some browsing and video playback to try out the new toy.
This was on a Samsung NC10, with which most distros had problems when it came out over a year ago. Not showstoppers, but things like Fn-keys for sound volume & screen brightness, other keyboard shortcuts for Wifi/BT/hibernate. Some didn't even "see" the Wifi chip. All major distros eventually caught up, but I never connected with the (supposedly netbook-optimized) PlaySkool UIs, such asMoblin or UNR.
I still maintain that Moblin not being available on anything doesn't really mean anything.. about the community or about the OS. It simply means no hardware platform has picked it up.
And I still maintain that never being picked up by any hardware platform means something about the community or about the OS, so there :-)
I'm sure the Moblin community thought they ran perfectly fine before all this mess :D. They are probably over there wondering how we manage to have a community with how these forums have looked lately ;).
Obviously the culture shock goes both ways. They ran a tidy, well-organized, corporate-style outfit, and now there are great unwashed hordes of Barbarians at their gates :-)
fatalsaint
2010-02-19, 21:16
PlaySkool UIs, such asMoblin or UNR.
PlaySkool UI.. I love it! (I have an Acer Aspire One.. wireless and all worked fine. I don't typically use FN keys).
We're in pretty much agreement except for the implications of the Hardware. That could be just as much advertising and/or marketing as it is about the OS.
You can't convince me the iPhone OS/framework is good :p. I hate it lol.
Not even thinking to try anyway :-)
gerbick is correct
what mapkes it worse is nokia's fancy dodging. just say yes or no. n900 customers are not stupid and will understand - e.g. if it is a "no" because of hardware limitations, well, so be it.
I strongly suspect that they haven't said because they don't know... It's still early days yet, and obviously the primary goal of meego is for future handsets, but there's definitely value to Nokia in bringing meego to the n900 - so the evaluation they will be making is what the cost of that effort is relative to the value.
If I was product managing this, I certainly wouldn't commit to officially supporting meego on the n900 until I was quite certain that the cost of the port would be less than the value to Nokia... I suspect it'll take some time to sort that out.
I'm still not exactly sure what the ruckus is about - haven't the 'mer' folks already said they'll port meego to the n900 if there isn't an 'official' version??
- inability to install .deb files (worse controlling the app market)
For one thing, people shouldn't be tossing around .deb or .rpm files and installing them directly.
Now then. They can't take the ability to directly install packages away without eliminating the concept of using a standard package management system and your access to root.
Note that -carriers- might, but that's just more reason to buy direct.
- restricting little hacks like adding brightness controller to the phone menu or making an app that pauses media player when you pull the headphones out.
To prevent small additions like this they would have to get as restrictive as Apple, which I doubt will happen.
with MeeGo is Nokia and Intel may not leave those types of conflicts open to the community to solve, but they would take an active role in securing there commercial interest at the expense of the progress the community would bring.
If they pulled that, the community would probably vacate the premises. After all, the issue you described is -why- you draw in a community: so they can supply all the bits and pieces that may be wanted, but not necessarily a large audience. On top of letting other people pick up some of the developmental load for you.
swineflue
2010-02-20, 10:52
I strongly suspect that they haven't said because they don't know... It's still early days yet, and obviously the primary goal of meego is for future handsets, but there's definitely value to Nokia in bringing meego to the n900 - so the evaluation they will be making is what the cost of that effort is relative to the value.
If I was product managing this, I certainly wouldn't commit to officially supporting meego on the n900 until I was quite certain that the cost of the port would be less than the value to Nokia... I suspect it'll take some time to sort that out.
I'm eady said they'll port meego to the n900 if there isn't an 'officistill not exactly sure what the ruckus is about - haven't the 'mer' folks alral' version??
Total agree with everything here. They don't know yet. The whole Meego thing smells fantastically half-baked at this point.
I would guess that the technical compatibility or likeness of Maemo and Moblin are a secondary benefit of the merger into Meego. I think this is more about Intel and Nokia finding a good marketing and branding partner, rather then a good "technical partner". Both are into open source mobile OS for very different reasons, and thec ombined strategy and implementation require a lot of work and market experimentation they haven't done yet.
I wouldn't be surprised if there is no meego yet at all. Just Maemo 6 with some last-minute meego aspects.
My concerns would be:
- invalidating warranty by gaining root access to the device.
Gaining root access will be as documented and officially supported in MeeGo as it is on Maemo 5. I'mm not a lawyer but I guess your warranty validity depends on what you do to your device with such root access. In case of doubt you can reflash and go back to the initial state, both in Maemo 5 and MeeGo.
- inability to install .deb files (worse controlling the app market)
??? Let's see what is the situation with rpm/deb in MeeGo but in any case the choice of packaging system doesn't affect the openness of the platform. debs can be converted in rpms and viceversa. (also what do you mean about "controlling the app market", MeeGo gives the freedom to anybody to run their own MeeGo compatible app catalogs).
- limiting community support by deviating from a standard Linux distro. Making it more difficult to port existing Linux apps.
??? MeeGo is a project hosted by the Linux Foundation and I expect the Linux Standard base and freedesktop.org standards to be high priorities. Can you please give examples of Linux apps being more difficult to be ported to MeeGo?
- restricting little hacks like adding brightness controller to the phone menu or making an app that pauses media player when you pull the headphones out.
??? MeeGo's UX reference layer will be open source, so in fact people willing to tweak the system UI will have an easier life. "an app that pauses media player when you pull the headphones out" exists in Maemo 5 and I don't see why couldn't exist in MeeGo. Besides, MeeGo comes together with an OBS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSUSE_Build_Service) based infrastructure allowing anybody to create customized images.
In essence if a conflict such as: Nokia and Intel decide it is not in there commercial interest to support "say" the .ogg format (for example). With meamo it is open enough that the community could support .ogg, and Nokia would let it be.
MeeGo is no different than Maemo 5 in this sense. It's an open platform.
Also fwiw Speex is already supported in Maemo 5 and Vorbis + FLAC are officially supported in Harmattan. Moblin has been supporting Ogg codecs since day 1 afaik.
A concern I have and it may be out of ignorance: with MeeGo is Nokia and Intel may not leave those types of conflicts open to the community to solve, but they would take an active role in securing there commercial interest at the expense of the progress the community would bring.
What are "those types of conflicts"? No matter what they are, I expect MeeGo being a more open project where the community agendas have more chances to get in the platform roadmap compared to Maemo 2005-2010.
I hope these answers help discerning founded concerns from involuntary FUD.
felbutss
2010-02-22, 06:41
all in all. MeeGo for N900?. thats the hidden message in every question i see.
Linux apps being more difficult to be ported to MeeGo?
here I am just thinking of palm and Android, you can call them Linux but for a consumer like me it may be Linux at the core but the app layer is proprietary and restricts assess or openness preventing me form exploiting the fact that it is built on an open core.
What are "those types of conflicts"?
Despite Ogg being supported by the community, Nokia apposed the Use of Ogg formats in HTML5 as it left a few unresolved issues with DRM. Despite Nokia commercial interest they left meamo open (I see OGG may possibly be sported in the maemo OS now, just not promoted as an open standard by Nokia). I see meamo as an exemplary example where Nokia sport an open principal.
for me it looks like MeeGO is a good fit as it give Nokia some lead into a diversified market and it gives Intel an opportunity to build the hardware backbone for that market. the logical deduction is Nokia expect to sell more stuff and Intel expect to sell more chips for that stuff. My question is more like: if you make the commitment to openness as long as you use Intel hardware how open is it? at what point to you step in a control MeeGo if it's Openness starts to affect your bottom line?
i guess you could summarize my concern as: I see maemo is an interesting experiment, and the the outcome i envision is true progress with Nokia at the crest of that wave. Now i think it has an albatross around it's neck and it is limited by Intel and if it is a success its limited by the dependence on a hardware monopoly.
Laughing Man
2010-02-24, 02:00
MeeGo brings more application developement attention sooner to the N900 and brings also a more solid platform able to deal with several types of devices.
So really, whatever N900 users had last week has improved significantly with the launch of MeeGo. If you think this is not true please explain why.
What I'm wondering is what's the lifeline of QT support for the N900 (assuming if it isn't updated onto the Meego path). Sure right now Meego and Maemo 5 will both be using QT 4.6. But what happens when 4.7 comes out, and so on. Will newer QT versions be backported to the N900 ensuring application compatibility?
I know you probably can't answer that (whether it's because you don't know or can't answer it). But it's just a thought.
Bruce Forsberg
2010-02-24, 02:23
This is typical of the Linux community. Linux people are great at starting things and terrible at finishing them. I would guess that greater than 99% of all Linux apps have not reached a 1.0 version. Linux people like to sit around and talk and start new projects with all kinds of talk but when it comes to walking the talk they all drift away and find some new idea to pursue.
This is typical of the Linux community. Linux people are great at starting things and terrible at finishing them. I would guess that greater than 99% of all Linux apps have not reached a 1.0 version. Linux people like to sit around and talk and start new projects with all kinds of talk but when it comes to walking the talk they all drift away and find some new idea to pursue.Ouch! Now there's a harsh statement. Despite all the times I pondered about the same thing, I greatly disagree with you. Sure there are many people trying different things and many of them their projects don't get to the maturity they expected when started but, without these people and their effords linux would not be where it is today with major distributions and all the applications that we come to love and use everyday. If anything, we can only be thankful that these people exist. Otherwise we would just let big corporations do whatever they want and there be no innovations.
This is typical of the Linux community. Linux people are great at starting things and terrible at finishing them. I would guess that greater than 99% of all Linux apps have not reached a 1.0 version. Linux people like to sit around and talk and start new projects with all kinds of talk but when it comes to walking the talk they all drift away and find some new idea to pursue.
What's considered 'finished' in the commercial world is different to what 'finished' mean when you're coding something to scratch a particular itch.
You don't need to think about packaging and polish as much as when you're trying to sell products to other people and make it as accessible as possible to users of all levels.
danramos
2010-05-27, 22:46
MeeGo is no different than Maemo 5 in this sense. It's an open platform.
Also fwiw Speex is already supported in Maemo 5 and Vorbis + FLAC are officially supported in Harmattan. Moblin has been supporting Ogg codecs since day 1 afaik.
I'm glad you said that. Timwatt may be going to the deep end of the cynicism pool, but I'm not sure I can blame him for asking some assurances. Myself, I want to know why Nokia had decided to act hypocritical to what they repeatedly preached about open-source.
What was that bruhaha that made everyone roll their eyes when Nokia regaled the world on how evil ogg was?
In case you forgot:
https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176#c33
Here's a pretty good summary:
Nokia has filed a submission with the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) objecting to the use of Ogg Theora as the baseline video standard for the Web. Ogg is an open encoding scheme (On2, the company that developed it, gave it and a free, perpetual unlimited license to its patents to the nonprofit Xiph foundation), but Nokia called it "proprietary" and argued for the inclusion of standards that can be used in conjunction with DRM, because "from our viewpoint, any DRM-incompatible video related mechanism is a non-starter with the content industry (Hollywood). There is in our opinion no need to make DRM support mandatory, though."
Quoted from:
http://boingboing.net/2007/12/09/nokia-to-w3c-ogg-is.html
Here's Nokia's whitepaper on the evils of ogg:
http://www.w3.org/2007/08/video/positions/Nokia.pdf
I'm just hammering this in because we WERE told that these tablets were all about being OPEN.. OPEN.. OPEN.. the whole time. Once again, we're being told Meego is going to be OPEN. Is this going to be some creative expression of 'OPEN' again or are the customers finally going to be delivered the openness we were marketed way back when these were still Internet Tablets? I've been left unimpressed so far, so.. impress us, please, and assure us that Nokia doesn't repeat the same dumb ogg affair.
Edit: PS - And I don't mean ogg in particular, here. I'm speaking more toward open standards all-around and truly and fully open-sourcedness in Meego. None of this half-assed implementation of stuff that is clearly supported in everyone else's distributions and then the driver/hardware fiasco of implementing it properly and fully (like, say, when ogg couldn't be implemented with DSP support before... thanks for making us wait so long for that, too, btw). Bitter? yeah.
Aren't you confusing "being open" with "putting the open source software I wish out of the box"?
The discussion about Ogg always was about Nokia "having to" ship it in the sales packages, not about the devices being open enough or not to play Ogg files.
Anyway, the fact related to the topic of this thread is that the MeeGo project will have a process where anybody has the possibility to influence the roadmap and content of the official releases.
Then vendors might end up offering more open or more closed implementations in their end products. As a user you can decide with your wallet which vendors do the right thing with MeeGo according to your parameters.
I still think that Nokia will keep releasing some o the most open devices based on MeeGo. Then again, Nokia does not attempt to beat the world mark of openness. For the MeeGo Devices team at Nokia open platforms and devices are means contributing to the real goal: better products released more efficiently getting community feedback and involvement + platforms for experimentation so you can then have more options to see interesting experimentation and productize it.
PS: I'm not trying to impress you with this post. :)
danramos
2010-06-01, 19:56
Clearly.
The lack of dedication toward providing open drivers and only using open-source friendly components in what is advertised as an open-source friendly device does not instill confidence in choosing a Nokia product over anyone else's product--particularly to an audience for which you claim the goal is to obtain involvement and to allow experimentation and, ultimately, productization.
I'm not sure that you made it clear that drivers (hell, even whether the Nokia-made software itself) is going to be entirely open. The OGG example was an excellent one only because it was obvious to anyone and everyone that Nokia was claiming something factually incorrect and, incidentally, overtly insane as a reason for a move toward what seemed more like an agenda to promote more closed-source to the open-source crowd. A Nokia exec was even quoted as having said that Linux people need to learn business and accept DRM in Linux--as a reason to exclude OGG. That seems both irrelevant and hypocritical.
I think most people to whom an open-sourced product would appeal to--especially the crowd that would provide feedback, involve themselves and experiment, would not appreciate this sly psychological slight of hand to try to get people to accept a little less freedom in their product.
But, as you said, we can vote with our dollars. I wholly agree with that sentiment and I continue to wait for a better, more open product and remain unimpressed with my Nokia experience so far. I hope that MeeGo and the next Nokia device will ultimately impress me more than your post. :)
pantera1989
2010-06-01, 20:00
I don't know about the openness of the device. If you go to settings and About Product there is a paragraph about writing to Nokia to offer the source code on a CD. Has anyone tried asking for the code for the closed source drivers and packages.
And I think Nokia wouldn't just release the source to anyone because competitors like Android may use it. If you are a trusted source they might in my opinion.
danramos
2010-06-01, 20:13
I don't know about the openness of the device. If you go to settings and About Product there is a paragraph about writing to Nokia to offer the source code on a CD. Has anyone tried asking for the code for the closed source drivers and packages.
And I think Nokia wouldn't just release the source to anyone because competitors like Android may use it. If you are a trusted source they might in my opinion.
First, it points out that they make available the open PORTIONS of the software on the device. That is--the Linux kernel itself and all the open portions. The closed-source portions are unavailable.
Second, the whole POINT of open-source is that you WANT your competitors to use it as well. Any fixes and enhancements they participate into the kernel becomes YOUR fixes and enhancements as well.
I don't know about the openness of the device. If you go to settings and About Product there is a paragraph about writing to Nokia to offer the source code on a CD. Has anyone tried asking for the code for the closed source drivers and packages.
And I think Nokia wouldn't just release the source to anyone because competitors like Android may use it. If you are a trusted source they might in my opinion.
Just because Nokia "gives you" the source code doesn't make it a "effort" towards free software. If Nokia, however, license it under a free software license so everyone can use, copy, modify and distribute then we can get on starting. Company's now seem to hide behind the shell that is "open source". Everyone can open source something and stuff it with a license that doesn't allow you to do a damn thing, if you have guts you license it as real free software.
I think Maemo 5 is way more stable then the first versions of this fresh "MeeGo" stuff. So what is so bad with Maemo 5? Why do you talk about a OS which is optimised for Netbooks at the moment?
pantera1989
2010-06-01, 20:34
First, it points out that they make available the open PORTIONS of the software on the device. That is--the Linux kernel itself and all the open portions. The closed-source portions are unavailable.
Second, the whole POINT of open-source is that you WANT your competitors to use it as well. Any fixes and enhancements they participate into the kernel becomes YOUR fixes and enhancements as well.
Yeah I guess so. I am not defending Nokia. I was merely asking if someone did try sending them a letter.
danramos
2010-06-01, 21:10
Just because Nokia "gives you" the source code doesn't make it a "effort" towards free software. If Nokia, however, license it under a free software license so everyone can use, copy, modify and distribute then we can get on starting. Company's now seem to hide behind the shell that is "open source". Everyone can open source something and stuff it with a license that doesn't allow you to do a damn thing, if you have guts you license it as real free software.
Well, there is that too--but I don't think that's relevant here. The problem isn't that it's a ridiculous form of open-source, it's that, for almost the entire life of these products, there's a large portion of GPLv2 open-source code being held captive by some few, but critical, completely closed-source drivers and other programs you're forced to have as part of a system image. More and more of it became open-sourced, but I've got a feeling it has less to do with Nokia and more to do with the component manufacturers themselves providing the openness more and more. A lot of simple Nokia-made software on the tablets (like that god-awful media player) remained closed all while drivers were opening.
I think Maemo 5 is way more stable then the first versions of this fresh "MeeGo" stuff. So what is so bad with Maemo 5? Why do you talk about a OS which is optimised for Netbooks at the moment?
Of course Maemo 5 is more stable on your tablet--it was made for it and it's the FIFTH iteration to work on this similar OMAP architecture. Meego is only JUST having its first go (hah... get it, meego) at running on OMAP like this. The intention, if I understand it right, is to migrate to a distribution that will last longer-term. Maybe even possibly carrying Nokia's good-will and influence on to other hardware as well, by taking credit for getting a community around this new OS. If the latter is right, I might feel better about Nokia's position on this--since it'll be less about NOKIA locking you in to their product with closed drivers and software and more about the liberated operating system. THAT might change a lot of my cynicism in their brand right now. We'll see.
Yeah I guess so. I am not defending Nokia. I was merely asking if someone did try sending them a letter.
Naw, it was already spelled out for you in the license. Especially the parts that point out that the Linux kernel itself is GPLv2 and portions of the OS image fall under other licenses and may not be openly available.
I still think that Nokia will keep releasing some o the most open devices based on MeeGo.
As compared to what?
Reading you it looks as if Nokia would be an enemy of openness of sorts. Yet...
What commercial handsets can you find in a shop more open than the Maemo devices?
How many companies can you list contributing more open source code and features? (Maemo/MeeGo + Symbian + Qt)
What commercial mobile platforms can you list with a more open setting and approach than the platforms where Nokia is involved? (MeeGo, Symbian)
Nokia is not perfect in terms of free software development but at least is trying hard investing a huge load of resources and publishing a huge load of new code available for anybody. Show us concrete alternatives that are succeeding commercially with a more open approach and we will seriously consider them (if we are not doing it already).
slaapliedje
2010-06-02, 04:03
Reading you it looks as if Nokia would be an enemy of openness of sorts. Yet...
What commercial handsets can you find in a shop more open than the Maemo devices?
How many companies can you list contributing more open source code and features? (Maemo/MeeGo + Symbian + Qt)
What commercial mobile platforms can you list with a more open setting and approach than the platforms where Nokia is involved? (MeeGo, Symbian)
Nokia is not perfect in terms of free software development but at least is trying hard investing a huge load of resources and publishing a huge load of new code available for anybody. Show us concrete alternatives that are succeeding commercially with a more open approach and we will seriously consider them (if we are not doing it already).
So while this whole Maemo / MeeGo thing is going on, and the whole thread is titled "Whole new Linux ballgame" the real question is, how much of the stack is from Maemo and how much of it is from Moblin.
Packaging is one thing, but did Maemo get completely scrapped in favor of the RPM based moblin and MeeGo is building of of what is essentially a Fedora Netbook remix? (I know it really isn't Fedora based per se, but Fedora is the closest to it from what I know). Which begs the other question, why ISN'T it based on Fedora or some other distribution. This is re-inventing the wheel... yet again?
So now we have yet another distribution that uses RPMs that aren't going to be readily installable in other RPM distributions. This is kind of dumb, I mean at least take something as a base and make it semi-compatible. I've found in my experience that 9 times out of 10 you can take an Ubuntu package and install it in Debian without problem, and vice versa. I can't say the same for Mandriva to Fedora to openSuSE. Just a thought. I'm sure that has been brought up before.
The other thing about RPM vs Deb that sucks is that with the N900 now, I can go to packages.debian.org, download SOME programs from the armel distribution and they'll work fine, if a bit strangely under the hildon interface.
I don't know of any other distributions that even have an armel version.
I kind of wonder about the Qt thing. Did Nokia purchase Trolltech simply because... well they couldn't buy out the 'owners' of GTK+? Since there really isn't one controlling company over it, I figured that's why the big move to Qt over GTK+. I mean hildon (which is the mobile gnome project) was the interface for Maemo until PR1.2 (still curious how much is still gtk and how much is now qt?)
Anyhow, just some thoughts. I am looking forward to MeeGo, though I'll most likely just install the Community edition or whatever on my phone and dual-boot. Now that is what I call OPEN!
Granted, there have been some work on getting Android to boot on the iPhone. But the main difference is that Nokia doesn't really care (at least I've never seen anything to suggest they have said "Oh you bastards, don't do that to <i>our</i> device!" Apple certainly have. I mean they have tried to get the DMCA changed to be even more restrictive so that jailbreaking your phone is illegal. Good thing we don't even have to do that :D
In conclusion... Yay, I can finally buy Angry Birds! Though the Ovi store is still weird.... I can see the 1.99 under Recommended, but if I go under Games, it just has the normal Angry Birds. It'd also be nice if the Ovi store had an icon no matter what page you were on, that showed that you have already have the particular package installed...not sure if that's possible without it scanning your phone though. I know under the 'my stuff' menu it shows the programs you've downloaded before... but after a flash, it still shows them there.....
now I'm just rambling :D G'night everyone!
slaapliedje
Reading you it looks as if Nokia would be an enemy of openness of sorts. Yet...
What commercial handsets can you find in a shop more open than the Maemo devices?
How many companies can you list contributing more open source code and features? (Maemo/MeeGo + Symbian + Qt)
What commercial mobile platforms can you list with a more open setting and approach than the platforms where Nokia is involved? (MeeGo, Symbian)
Nokia is not perfect in terms of free software development but at least is trying hard investing a huge load of resources and publishing a huge load of new code available for anybody. Show us concrete alternatives that are succeeding commercially with a more open approach and we will seriously consider them (if we are not doing it already).
I'm not sure if there were any more or less open handsets, but i bet there are some, just not that popular, or maybe projects died, and i want to thank Nokia to looking forward for open source.
But ...
There are a lot of companies contributing to open source, and i mean adding patches and source to kernel and so on, and even some of them don't get profit of it. While Nokia just bought QT, and as i see the contribution in QT and opening source of Symbian kinda helping Nokia as well, to make people and communities as ours to contribute in projects.
And going open source is not only when you distribution with open code and you can get root. Open source is also life style, especially when you have community, and on one hand Nokia workers are communicating with us (e.g. is you), but still we don't even have the maemo roadmap of development, we don't know what's going on, and i don't think that there are any decisions (which we also don't know) are based on our opinions at all. (i'm not demanding to do what we want, but to consider the end-user opinions is important). Also as Maemo open source, it's still comming to us as a big peace instead of parts and there are more and more.
My point is that to be open is not only to show us code.
And i'm not saying it as negative thing, I just say that it's not excuse "we are most open", and still there are a lot of thing Nokia has to learn.
Nokia is not perfect in terms of free software development but at least is trying hard investing a huge load of resources and publishing a huge load of new code available for anybody. Show us concrete alternatives that are succeeding commercially with a more open approach and we will seriously consider them (if we are not doing it already).
But you're not fully open - BME for instance.
So again... who are you comparing yourselves to?
What commercial handsets can you find in a shop more open than the Maemo devices?.
BTW There is OpenMoko with Neo FreeRunner :)
TheLongshot
2010-06-02, 04:51
And i'm not saying it as negative thing, I just say that it's not excuse "we are most open", and still there are a lot of thing Nokia has to learn.
I think there are a lot of things companies need to learn about how to best integrate open source into their business plans. It isn't just Nokia. It is probably a tough job, because open source and traditional business practices haven't generally been compatible with each other. Businesses generally want as much control as possible of their products, where open source often requires that you let go of some of that control.
I don't think anyone here thinks that Nokia has been a model citizen in the whole OSS community. At the same time, they have done more than most companies out there to work on going OSS. It probably hasn't been easy on either side of the equation.
A Nokia exec was even quoted as having said that Linux people need to learn business and accept DRM in Linux--as a reason to exclude OGG. That seems both irrelevant and hypocritical.
If you're going to refer to Ari Jaaksi's infamous quote, it had a larger scope than that. He was referring to a closed (ironically) mindset that keeps Linux from being a greater success, and that was the reluctance to at least meet business halfway and understand profit drivers instead of vilifying them as something inherently evil.
Ultimately neither Nokia nor any other company can operate for free. Nokia has decided, wisely IMO, that there's no longer enough value to be found in being an operating system provider. So they will focus on their technological (and hopefully, service) advantages as those profit drivers. If every aspect of hardware is opened, and that hardware becomes commoditized, where does Nokia derive revenue in this space?
Let's see how Pandora fares and then cast stones at Nokia if they are successful. ;)
disclaimer: I would personally love to see mobile computers ultimately commoditized to the point that PCs are. I build all of my PCs. ;)
gerbick, I'm comparing Nokia with the companies you compare Nokia all the time and with the products available in the shops where you can find Nokia products. If you don't like this comparison please propose another one.
About BME closed, did you go and ask at meego-dev as I proposed to you few days ago when you came with the same point in this forum?
About the MeeGo architecture, http://meego.com/developers/meego-architecture shares a lot with Maemo, with Moblin and with other distros. Yet is a stack that it's not Maemo' it's not Moblin, it's not Fedora/openSuSE/Ubuntu/Debian. If you understand a bit about Linux platforms you will see that it's a quite unique and innovative stack having to solve certain problems other distros don't attempt to solve.
And sure, there are plenty of companies and even more individuals and also non-profits contributing LOTS of code and more. I'm not dismissing any of them! I'm just defending that Nokia is one of these organizations, actually contributing a lot. And again, if you go and ask Linux and free desktop developers and maintainers you will see that all in all Nokia gets better than worse feedback about what we do and how we do it.
About the lessons learned, I think in every Maemo iteration there were improvements but there was a structural ceiling barring more significant progress. This is one of the reasons why MeeGo was created, and Nokia is applying the remaining reasons there.
PS: the more you discuss about the MeeGo project the more it makes sense to do it at http://forum.meego.com
gerbick, I'm comparing Nokia with the companies you compare Nokia all the time and with the products available in the shops where you can find Nokia products. If you don't like this comparison please propose another one.
While here, I don't compare Nokia to anybody else really. What I am asking is that you answer me directly. No more riddles man.
Just say who you are comparing yourself to. I'm not quite sure how that question is escaping you.
About BME closed, did you go and ask at meego-dev as I proposed to you few days ago when you came with the same point in this forum?
With the BME closed, it makes power management for other OS's that I would love to place onto my "open device" just that much more useless because the battery would just plain die.
And sure, there are plenty of companies and even more individuals and also non-profits contributing LOTS of code and more. I'm not dismissing any of them! I'm just defending that Nokia is one of these organizations, actually contributing a lot. And again, if you go and ask Linux and free desktop developers and maintainers you will see that all in all Nokia gets better than worse feedback about what we do and how we do it.
I don't know where you thought I might have gathered you've dismissed anybody else. In fact... I don't even know where this whole paragraph came from.
Allow me to reiterate my question. When you said that MeeGo/Nokia is "more open than anybody else"... who are you referring to?
PS: the more you discuss about the MeeGo project the more it makes sense to do it at http://forum.meego.com
I have an account there too. Please answer my question directly.
Thank you in advance.
While here, I don't compare Nokia to anybody else really. What I am asking is that you answer me directly. No more riddles man.
Just say who you are comparing yourself to. I'm not quite sure how that question is escaping you.
With the BME closed, it makes power management for other OS's that I would love to place onto my "open device" just that much more useless because the battery would just plain die.
I don't know where you thought I might have gathered you've dismissed anybody else. In fact... I don't even know where this whole paragraph came from.
Allow me to reiterate my question. When you said that MeeGo/Nokia is "more open than anybody else"... who are you referring to?
I have an account there too. Please answer my question directly.
Thank you in advance.
Probably he was answering partly to me to. I think it's useless to send us to meego forum, as now we are talikng about nokia meego and maemo, and it touches some aspects of maemo community as well. And as gerbick, i don't see any straight answer or fact, i just see the reflecting answers. As well i would like to here how can people really can be involved in maemo development, and when i talking not about applications, i'm talking about bug fixes(as some code is closed or i had personally met the problem when bug was refused to open as it was mark as fixed, but it's still there), what are the point of bug reports if they are not comming straight and we don't really know if they are fixed, as well i would like to know how community can get the roadmap of development, there are a lot of question people asking at forum everyday and as i saw Nokia if gives answers - it's only to certain questions they want and even than no 100% info.
Ok, it's obvious you will not answer my question about who you were referring to, and quite honestly I'm not one to fall for marketing speak ad nauseum.
How about this... I'll simplify my question.
MeeGo is wonderful in how it is planned, Nokia is giving to the open source community as much as it is possibly taking away from the community, and above all they are a "well behaved" citizen of the open source community.
Bravo!
But as it stands, MeeGo - a conglomeration of Nokia's Maemo and Intel's Moblin - stands to come out and do quite a few things different than both had before.
Can you detail what is different in regards to prior Maemo and Moblin attempts? That's where people such as myself are lacking a bit of vision in regards to "what's different". Not that I don't know what MeeGo is, nor that I didn't know what Moblin was - hacked it to somewhat run on my OQO 01+ actually but lacked a lot of drivers that would have made it useful for me - but I guess the question you seem to be really overlooking is that marketing speak is a loss here.
We're already here man.
So now, it's specifics that I require. What's so different? Not the whole technical *.deb vs. *.rpm stuff, but how is it different than before to a consumer? What are you comparing it to? Your (Nokia/Intel) prior attempts or something else?
That's where I'm in the dark man. Is that so hard to understand? That's a hurdle that some consumers will have to crest to see what your product will mean to them.
Probably he was answering partly to me to
I guess so... but he still used my name without fully answering my single question.
Android *whistle*
Seriously. Is it that hard to just say that?
I know to the Nokia faithful, my questions will be somehow foolhardily relegated to "attacking" but while Qgil is answering questions, I would love to see (from Nokia's standpoint) what they have planned to make MeeGo a viable product to those of us with so much invested into Maemo in terms of non-developers.
Sure, I mean from the technical side, Qt is wonderful. The move to *.rpm from *.deb, while argued plenty in the past just means a few changes in mindset in regards to installing things. I get that.
But on a much lower level, the consumer... what's so different? On some days, I don't want to hear lofty or overly technical terms on how something I've foolishly come to depend upon (my cellphone) can extrapolate portions of the human genome if I program it in Python and use a certain library... I just want to know what compels that company to solve some of my lesser needs.
Or why I should support them.
I'm already here. I've bought two Maemo devices. I've contemplated a third. I'm on the cusp of the Maemo to MeeGo transition and the technical side of me is still researching. The consumer side needs more reassuring.
Thus... my questions.
Seriously. Is it that hard to just say that?
Well you knew it, I knew it, who the heck didn't know it? So why you insist him to say it? But Android isn't the only one. Bada - is it more open than Meego/Meamo? Android for sure isn't.
Well you knew it, I knew it, who the heck didn't know it? So why you insist him to say it? But Android isn't the only one. Bada - is it more open than Meego/Meamo? Android for sure isn't.
Bada isn;t open
Well you knew it, I knew it, who the heck didn't know it? So why you insist him to say it? But Android isn't the only one. Bada - is it more open than Meego/Meamo? Android for sure isn't.
That's the thing about assumptions.
I was thinking he was talking about OpenMoko.
We can't discuss concrete details about what is different in a MeeGo product from a consumer perspective before there is a Handset UX published and at least one MeeGo handset product announced by a vendor.
zehjotkah
2010-06-02, 09:19
Novell is cooperating with Intel to make their own derivate on top of MeeGo called Suse MeeGo (previously known as Suse Moblin).
There should be Netbooks with preinstalled Suse MeeGo available this year.
Source (german): http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Suse-MeeGo-Novell-arbeitet-an-neuem-Linux-fuer-Netbooks-1013602.html
Seriously. Is it that hard to just say that?
I know to the Nokia faithful, my questions will be somehow foolhardily relegated to "attacking" but while Qgil is answering questions, I would love to see (from Nokia's standpoint) what they have planned to make MeeGo a viable product to those of us with so much invested into Maemo in terms of non-developers.
Sure, I mean from the technical side, Qt is wonderful. The move to *.rpm from *.deb, while argued plenty in the past just means a few changes in mindset in regards to installing things. I get that.
But on a much lower level, the consumer... what's so different? On some days, I don't want to hear lofty or overly technical terms on how something I've foolishly come to depend upon (my cellphone) can extrapolate portions of the human genome if I program it in Python and use a certain library... I just want to know what compels that company to solve some of my lesser needs.
Or why I should support them.
I'm already here. I've bought two Maemo devices. I've contemplated a third. I'm on the cusp of the Maemo to MeeGo transition and the technical side of me is still researching. The consumer side needs more reassuring.
Thus... my questions.Read this, it might help:
http://www.nokia.com/NOKIA_COM_1/Technology/pdf/Nokia_software_strategy_white_paper.pdf
MeeGo OS will be more or less open, but the MeeGo devices that Nokia sells will have differentiating UI, apps and services.
danramos
2010-06-02, 21:16
Reading you it looks as if Nokia would be an enemy of openness of sorts. Yet...
What commercial handsets can you find in a shop more open than the Maemo devices?
How many companies can you list contributing more open source code and features? (Maemo/MeeGo + Symbian + Qt)
What commercial mobile platforms can you list with a more open setting and approach than the platforms where Nokia is involved? (MeeGo, Symbian)
Nokia is not perfect in terms of free software development but at least is trying hard investing a huge load of resources and publishing a huge load of new code available for anybody. Show us concrete alternatives that are succeeding commercially with a more open approach and we will seriously consider them (if we are not doing it already).
OpenMoko is a more open handset, as handsets go--MUCH better support all throughout the hardware and software environment. Google's Android has potential but Google's been miserly about drivers and architecture openness--well, HEY! How about that.. that's EXACTLY the point I was making about Nokia! Sure--Nokia contributes a bunch, but if you close the drivers and architecture all around the open bits, you might as well call it a CLOSED operating system and stop pretending you're promoting open-source. Enemy of openness, maybe not--but you're not as friendly as many others and it's disingenuous to pretend to be. There may be a genuine interest in it at Nokia, but there isn't any real tangible evidence of it compared to other distributions and platforms. CERTAINLY not, if you want to count in the netbooks--which are, on the whole, much more open-source friendly with their drivers and hardware. I don't think it's asking a lot to open up drivers and architecture. It's what helped computers and the Internet to boom in their golden eras.
What companies are contributing more to open-source? Are you kidding me? Clearly: Red Hat, Novel, IBM, Intel, Oracle, SGI, should I go on? Nokia only finally shows up at 0.6%, between Marvell and Simtec. That's not to say it's insignificant, but it is to point out that you shouldn't brag. (ref: http://www.linuxfoundation.org/node/4463)
By the by, if it helps.. there IS someone who'll help you if you're genuinely interested in resolving our hardware driver complaints:
http://www.linuxdriverproject.org/foswiki/bin/view
Just saying. I appreciate the contributions that ARE being made, but the defensive attitude is unwelcomed. We're consumers, hobbyists and developers out here. Customers are happy to be sheep--but you have to provide customers with a positive experience to earn that kind of brand faithfulness. We will (and it appears, a lot already have) cling to the next brand that bothers to listen and make our lives more pleasant. The constant nagging for openness doesn't just cease because you're contributing AROUND the closed portions. Those closed portions are creating frustrations for many people who would have otherwise been happy to do the work for Nokia to provide that positive experience the customers are expecting.
If you're going to refer to Ari Jaaksi's infamous quote, it had a larger scope than that. He was referring to a closed (ironically) mindset that keeps Linux from being a greater success, and that was the reluctance to at least meet business halfway and understand profit drivers instead of vilifying them as something inherently evil.
Ultimately neither Nokia nor any other company can operate for free. Nokia has decided, wisely IMO, that there's no longer enough value to be found in being an operating system provider. So they will focus on their technological (and hopefully, service) advantages as those profit drivers. If every aspect of hardware is opened, and that hardware becomes commoditized, where does Nokia derive revenue in this space?
Let's see how Pandora fares and then cast stones at Nokia if they are successful. ;)
disclaimer: I would personally love to see mobile computers ultimately commoditized to the point that PCs are. I build all of my PCs. ;)
And I was referring to his statements as a corporate intention to stay away from OGG despite customers demanding it. It had much less to do with whether anyone loves or hates DRM and more to do with a supposedly OPEN-SOURCE device being denied the openness of architecture and the incredible accusations around patents as a reason for not even writing an implementation for customers. I can't see how Pandora has anything to do with either of these issues when the whole point is to promote inclusiveness, rather than the exclusive nature of the closed architecture.
gerbick, I'm comparing Nokia with the companies you compare Nokia all the time and with the products available in the shops where you can find Nokia products. If you don't like this comparison please propose another one.
About BME closed, did you go and ask at meego-dev as I proposed to you few days ago when you came with the same point in this forum?
About the MeeGo architecture, http://meego.com/developers/meego-architecture shares a lot with Maemo, with Moblin and with other distros. Yet is a stack that it's not Maemo' it's not Moblin, it's not Fedora/openSuSE/Ubuntu/Debian. If you understand a bit about Linux platforms you will see that it's a quite unique and innovative stack having to solve certain problems other distros don't attempt to solve.
And sure, there are plenty of companies and even more individuals and also non-profits contributing LOTS of code and more. I'm not dismissing any of them! I'm just defending that Nokia is one of these organizations, actually contributing a lot. And again, if you go and ask Linux and free desktop developers and maintainers you will see that all in all Nokia gets better than worse feedback about what we do and how we do it.
About the lessons learned, I think in every Maemo iteration there were improvements but there was a structural ceiling barring more significant progress. This is one of the reasons why MeeGo was created, and Nokia is applying the remaining reasons there.
PS: the more you discuss about the MeeGo project the more it makes sense to do it at http://forum.meego.com (http://forum.meego.com/)
Will ANY of this address the PROBLEM of closed drivers, architecture and applications? It would be INFINITELY useful to have a hardware manufacturer sell us a device that a community can create multiple OS's and distributions onto. I THOUGHT that's what the Internet Tablets were, when they were advertised with an open-source OS and Nokia touting the openness of the Maemo operating system.
Probably he was answering partly to me to. I think it's useless to send us to meego forum, as now we are talikng about nokia meego and maemo, and it touches some aspects of maemo community as well. And as gerbick, i don't see any straight answer or fact, i just see the reflecting answers. As well i would like to here how can people really can be involved in maemo development, and when i talking not about applications, i'm talking about bug fixes(as some code is closed or i had personally met the problem when bug was refused to open as it was mark as fixed, but it's still there), what are the point of bug reports if they are not comming straight and we don't really know if they are fixed, as well i would like to know how community can get the roadmap of development, there are a lot of question people asking at forum everyday and as i saw Nokia if gives answers - it's only to certain questions they want and even than no 100% info.
Is it me, or does this redirection promote fragmentation and make it too easy, intentional or not, to dismiss arguments in said fragmentation? I think we're generally discussing Nokia and Maemo with relation to Meego (ie: game changing)... not so much about Meego itself.
Read this, it might help:
http://www.nokia.com/NOKIA_COM_1/Technology/pdf/Nokia_software_strategy_white_paper.pdf
MeeGo OS will be more or less open, but the MeeGo devices that Nokia sells will have differentiating UI, apps and services.
It's the "or less" part that greatly disturbs me. The differentiating indicates to me that this won't be running on truly open hardware and will consist of some closed portions of the OS--more of the same history with Nokia, effectively.
GAH... this was a long post. I need a drink. :)
We can't discuss concrete details about what is different in a MeeGo product from a consumer perspective before there is a Handset UX published and at least one MeeGo handset product announced by a vendor.
On the other hand we non and ex Nokians are free to put cards on the table and weigh Maemo or MeeGo against Android, OpenMoko, Limo, Ubuntu mobile, et al. Based on what we know of course.
In fact maybe someone in the community would be interested in creating a wiki page with a matrix of vendors X features...
And I was referring to his statements as a corporate intention to stay away from OGG despite customers demanding it. It had much less to do with whether anyone loves or hates DRM and more to do with a supposedly OPEN-SOURCE device being denied the openness of architecture and the incredible accusations around patents as a reason for not even writing an implementation for customers. I can't see how Pandora has anything to do with either of these issues when the whole point is to promote inclusiveness, rather than the exclusive nature of the closed architecture.
My understanding has been that the problems with OGG stem from potential IP land mines. Am I wrong?
As for Pandora, I'm mystified by your comment. I can't see how it wouldn't have much to do with the subject... :confused:
danramos
2010-06-02, 21:48
FWIW, Qgil,
I mainly blame Nokia executives here, not you personally (unless you're the fellow making the decisions).
There's not a lot of reason to put on a defensive posture. I think most of us are trying to remain constructive with criticism but even when it isn't "constructive," you should know that one expression of customer experience (positive and negative) here is likely to have many more who aren't part of the forums and that can be valuable as well.
danramos
2010-06-02, 21:55
My understanding has been that the problems with OGG stem from potential IP land mines. Am I wrong?
As for Pandora, I'm mystified by your comment. I can't see how it wouldn't have much to do with the subject... :confused:
Potential IP landmines? Landmines that lawyers for FSF haven't caught? If there's a potential IP landmine to be had, why go out and trash on OGG and deny it to the customers instead of contacting the FSF lawyers and find an amicable way to resolve the license or to get an assurance that there isn't a problem?
I, too, am mystified by your argument about Pandora. How would encrypted Pandora closed-source client software be anything like the gateway to hardware like a closed-source driver or architecture like the BRM?
Potential IP landmines? Landmines that lawyers for FSF haven't caught? If there's a potential IP landmine to be had, why go out and trash on OGG and deny it to the customers instead of contacting the FSF lawyers and find an amicable way to resolve the license or to get an assurance that there isn't a problem?
I, too, am mystified by your argument about Pandora. How would encrypted Pandora closed-source client software be anything like the gateway to hardware like a closed-source driver or architecture like the BRM?
This Pandora
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora_%28console%29
danramos
2010-06-02, 22:01
This Pandora
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora_%28console%29
DOH! :) My bad. In my mind, that thing was already dead and forgotten.
I think you two are mixing up Pandora Music versus Pandora the console.
As far as it goes, the whole OGG "submarine patents" that are waiting for it need to have the blame placed directly where it belongs... MPEG-LA. Find an alternative - I know that Google can't be the only one that can do that.
Now back to topic... I'm not seeing how "more or less" answers a question. That just reeks of marketing speak. Ask direct questions and there's no answers... just more smoke screens. I can't give Nokia my faith any longer.
They better be glad I'm patient. But it doesn't mean I won't ask questions.
Novell is cooperating with Intel to make their own derivate on top of MeeGo called Suse MeeGo (previously known as Suse Moblin).
There should be Netbooks with preinstalled Suse MeeGo available this year.
Source (german): http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Suse-MeeGo-Novell-arbeitet-an-neuem-Linux-fuer-Netbooks-1013602.html
Somehow I'm quite glad to hear this.
Maemo's worst downside was always the fact that the end user (community) had to depend to Nokia - a hardware vendor - on the continued support and maintenance of the platform. Obviously it was always in Nokia's interest to obsolete (intentionally or through neglect) platform versions running on devices that had already been sold!
Joining forces with Intel (which has reputation for rather solid OSS support) should somewhat extende the scope of that legacy support, but Intel still prefers to shovel out new hardware to replace the already sold...
Novell's SUSE on the other hand represents pure software development, maintenance and support, besides bringing in some valuable resources and skills to the soft side of user experience.
I'm kind of curious to see how these parties coordinate their development efforts, but after abandoning the Debian "universe", I'd consider Novell's presence (with their repos and timely porting tradition) as the next best thing for Mae... MeeGo.
slaapliedje
2010-06-03, 02:16
Somehow I quite glad to hear this.
Maemo's worst downside was always the fact that the end user (community) had to depend to Nokia - a hardware vendor - on the continued support and maintenance of the platform. Obviously it was always in Nokia's interest to obsolete (intentionally or through neglect) platform versions running on devices that had already been sold!
Joining forces with Intel (which has reputation for rather solid OSS support) should somewhat extende the scope of that legacy support, but Intel still prefers to shovel out new hardware to replace the already sold...
Novell's SUSE on the other hand represents pure software development, maintenance and support, besides bringing in some valuable resources and skills to the soft side of user experience.
I'm kind of curious to see how these parties coordinate their development efforts, but after abandoning the Debian "universe", I'd consider Novell's presence (with their repos and timely porting tradition) as the next best thing for Mae... MeeGo.
My biggest problem with this is the school of thought that thinks "Oh, there are too many Linux distributions, why don't we just have one so people are not confused! Oh, are we programming for a Linux environment, or Ubuntu, or Suse or.... "
Will this turn into a "Well, we have this awesome new app for SuSE MeeGo!" "Well, I'm running Fedora MeeGo, what do you have for me?" "Oh, uhm... sorry, you'll have to wait 'til your distribution re-packages the source code." "But, your source is closed!" "Oh, so it is. Well, tough titties for you, fish face!" Then of course a battle will ensue. "We should be fighting together!" "We are!"
Now if MeeGo's ONLY difference is the UI that is attached to the specific device / variation on it, that's fine. Just keep everything under the skin the same.
This is one of the reasons many people think that commercial software doesn't come to Linux. Too many distributions that say "Hey, your crap isn't compatible with our version of glibc and .deb/.rpm"
Android has kind of the opposite problem, too many hardware vendors, so not all devices are created equally. Not to mention the Market Place that doesn't have a CliQ, Nexus One, etc section. You basically have to read comments and they'll say "oh, this doesn't work on X phone because of Y"
I will say that as soon as MeeGo has a UI, I'll be slapping it on my N900 :D
slaapliedje
Edit: to make it clear, I don't really buy the school of thought represented above. I figure more the merrier!
flailingmonkey
2010-06-03, 04:00
Considering the fact that the only closed components (rather than applications) are a video driver that Nokia doesn't control the license of (it belongs to SGX) and the BME daemon, I don't know where all this confusion comes from.
Every other N900 driver MeeGo uses is not just open source in the sense of having the source available, the kernel drivers are also either committed or being committed to the linux kernel upstream. For one thing, this means that all future releases would support the same hardware devices, for no extra effort, and so would any Linux distribution that uses a kernel after those drivers were committed to the source.
As for different MeeGo images (SUSE MeeGo would be a MeeGo image), for those who don't catch slaapliedje's tone, the MeeGo approach means that any program written for MeeGo would work on any instance of MeeGo.
As MeeGo is a fully functional system by itself, there isn't a necessity to add more stack elements and APIs, but it is open to any such additions. If a program uses one of these additional API's, obviously you would need to have that API as well. Often this would involve other open source technologies, but a good example of how proprietary code can play nice with MeeGo would be something like the OVI API, that Nokia would add in its MeeGo releases, for OVI Store maybe Music store of some kind, etc.
slaapliedje
2010-06-03, 04:24
Considering the fact that the only closed components (rather than applications) are a video driver that Nokia doesn't control the license of (it belongs to SGX) and the BME daemon, I don't know where all this confusion comes from.
Every other N900 driver MeeGo uses is not just open source in the sense of having the source available, the kernel drivers are also either committed or being committed to the linux kernel upstream. For one thing, this means that all future releases would support the same hardware devices, for no extra effort, and so would any Linux distribution that uses a kernel after those drivers were committed to the source.
As for different MeeGo images (SUSE MeeGo would be a MeeGo image), for those who don't catch slaapliedje's tone, the MeeGo approach means that any program written for MeeGo would work on any instance of MeeGo.
As MeeGo is a fully functional system by itself, there isn't a necessity to add more stack elements and APIs, but it is open to any such additions. If a program uses one of these additional API's, obviously you would need to have that API as well. Often this would involve other open source technologies, but a good example of how proprietary code can play nice with MeeGo would be something like the OVI API, that Nokia would add in its MeeGo releases, for OVI Store maybe Music store of some kind, etc.
Yeah, I'm pretty much hoping it ends up being like this;
Linux Kernel (handling device drivers, etc.)
MeeGo Stack (including yum/RPM, Qt, Gtk+(as a side note, multitouch now added to 3.x)
Custom UI.
That should pretty much be what all MeeGo 'distros' should be. Much like how Ubuntu has Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu, etc. All with the same backend, but different user interfaces. I only cringe when I hear SuSE MeeGo, because they, out of all of the other RPM based distributions are the worse offenders of the "Hey, we'll take your base package manager and configure our packages so they don't work or are a pain in the arse to get to work on any distro but ours!"
It's better now... but back in the day before Novell owned them... it was positively a nightmare, and Suse didn't even give version numbers in packages then... they would have something like gcc.rpm as a package.
Anyhow, I'm looking forward to what MeeGo brings to the scene. If it truly succeeds to be a universal mobile OS (and maybe not so mobile?) and starts to get a lot of commercial support (from the likes of EA as some have said) then it would truly do a lot for the Linux community at large. The real question is how 'linuxy' will MeeGo be? I hope it's open / compatible enough with other distros so that a simple alien or rpm -Uvh or whatever will let a x86 or even ARM native commercial app be installed on a non-MeeGo distro.
slaapliedje
Edit: lousy typos.
danramos
2010-06-03, 21:16
Considering the fact that the only closed components (rather than applications) are a video driver that Nokia doesn't control the license of (it belongs to SGX) and the BME daemon, I don't know where all this confusion comes from.
Every other N900 driver MeeGo uses is not just open source in the sense of having the source available, the kernel drivers are also either committed or being committed to the linux kernel upstream. For one thing, this means that all future releases would support the same hardware devices, for no extra effort, and so would any Linux distribution that uses a kernel after those drivers were committed to the source.
As for different MeeGo images (SUSE MeeGo would be a MeeGo image), for those who don't catch slaapliedje's tone, the MeeGo approach means that any program written for MeeGo would work on any instance of MeeGo.
As MeeGo is a fully functional system by itself, there isn't a necessity to add more stack elements and APIs, but it is open to any such additions. If a program uses one of these additional API's, obviously you would need to have that API as well. Often this would involve other open source technologies, but a good example of how proprietary code can play nice with MeeGo would be something like the OVI API, that Nokia would add in its MeeGo releases, for OVI Store maybe Music store of some kind, etc.
AWESOME! Everything will be open..except the drivers for the video and the battery draining management system. That's all. ONLY just two things. The thing that lets you see.. and the one that could shut down the whole system. I think it matters very little to me who owns them, if I intended to buy an open-source device.
And uh..what about the rest of us. You know.. the other half of the forum. You know.. the Internet Tablets?
I think Nokia faces a public image problem. Lost credibility as a market leader to all sorts of Smartphone competition, then they baited and switched on the core base of faithful Nokia users by pulling this Maemo/ MeeGo switcheroo ... effectively obsoleting our N900's the day they announced, 3-4 months after N900 release. I don't know why certain users deny the fact, ignore the fact or plain and simply say ... so what? But this is a Nokia culture that is bad, and doesn't need to be reinforced by silence or pats on the back for a job well done on MeeGo.
To me MeeGo is unecessary. Maemo is Open Source, it was being developed, it was picking up momentum, and all that can be done on MeeGo can be done on Maemo. The only difference is that this is a partnership with Intel, and all the said benefits from OS is a fallacy ... this was and still is purely of business interest as Maemo was just fine own it's own. To add insult to injury, Maemo was long and hard sell to the community ... it was really picking up steam, I now see app's have trickled to a near stop, and updates come rarely now. Nokia has really hurt the goodwill around the N900, and the brand cannot be trusted. I love the N900, I just hate that Nokia made it. I think this is the simplest way of describing the situation, as other manufacturers would have made releases more frequent and would have focused on the product and confidently support the platform, but would they have made a N900 or a Maemo OS?
So MeeGo is not a whole new Linux Ballgame, it is the same game with the same players; now in the same team. Lets not paint a rainbow around it, this is Nokia's worst customer transgression ... condemning a 6-month old phone to obsolescence is such a shame.
Heck even this forum is rendered obsolete, the active user base will begin to dwindle.
I still don't get how this is a "whole new ballgame" - marketing BS because Linux has been open. It's Nokia that's finally getting something right... and still deploying closed sources in a "mostly" open cellphone.
Whole new ballgame. I'm not convinced yet.
david_galicia
2010-06-05, 00:44
Consider if Intel/Nokia somehow, someway gets companies to buy into meego as a platform for development, meego can expect more application support it than maemo can ever hope to achieve. This will happen provided that they do exceptionally bad arse marketing though.
Of course this benefits Nokia, not us -- but we can still hope the community port of Harmattann/n900 to pull through.
I don't think I'm being too idealistic. =(
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