View Full Version : Meego to save Nokia ?
This is a very interesting article...
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=asY1PBNFLHpE&pos=13
Tiptronic
2010-05-06, 14:18
Where do you see meego in that article?
I didn't see anything aout MeeGo in that article. Reading the article it seems as if lowering proces is keeping NOKIA from going under.
Whoa.
Nokia is in a much worse condition that I thought they were (judging by what's exchanged in this forum). I didn't know that Nokia slashed their prices so heavily to retain their marketshare, hitting them so hard on their bottomline (profit).
In the end, numbers do matter.
Where do you see meego in that article?
"will have new smartphones this year that will “help close the gap” with Apple Inc., Research In Motion Ltd.’s BlackBerry and devices based on Google Inc.’s Android software."
“The best way to leverage Nokia’s strengths is to be a mass producer of cheaper, good quality products, which would rapidly lower their R&D costs,” said Pedersen."
To me these quotes and the references to getting the out of control R&D spending under control scream Meego.
bjknight
2010-05-06, 14:26
I think they are buggered. They seem to have lost their way.
That's the impression I form from the last 12 months or so of announcements, leaks and so on.
Although MeeGo has some big names behind it, I think it's still too early for Nokia to give MeeGo out as a solution to the market analysts. It's unproven (0% marketshare) and the brand is practically an unknown in the market.
Reading those passages, I thought they were referencing Symbian 3 and 4 which has great track record and have always been associated to Nokia mobiles.
benny1967
2010-05-06, 14:42
Whoa.
Nokia is in a much worse condition that I thought they were (judging by what's exchanged in this forum). I didn't know that Nokia slashed their prices so heavily to retain their marketshare, hitting them so hard on their bottomline (profit).
In the end, numbers do matter.
The bloomberg article doesn't make sense to me after the recent figures published by nokia. profit's up, not down, and market share is rising, too. (both YoY)
bloomberg makes it look as if both were declining.
Symbian 3 and 4 and the lack of an OS like Apple has is what is keeping Nokia from competing. Meego is their solution to that problem.
Nokia and others now see the wisdom in owning the OS that your phone runs. Symbian 3 and 4 can't keep up and a rewrite won't get it done either. Meego is their only hope. Google got it done with Android and showed the way. Now Nokia et al are going to rely on Meego.
Expect Meego to develop very quickly. Nodia's future relies on it.
Yes its new. That is a good thing. The market wants something new AND BETTER.
felbutss
2010-05-06, 15:08
"Now 34 billion euros, or $44 billion...........shadow of its 1999 peak of 203 billion euros, the highest of any European company. "
"Nokia came in 43rd in a brand-ranking study released last week by Millward Brown Optimor, tumbling 30 places in a year."
nokia what are you doing. its so obvious what you guys do wrong. apple has trained the world with how to do firmware updates, installing apps but we could do it with symbian many years ago but the general public didnt know. nokia marketing/appeal is very very bad. i love nokia but im a techie
You have to remember that Nokia doesn't need to sell for high end consumers like HTC or Apple does. They are very widespread in the mid range market (I'm not sure, but I think the N8 is a midrange handset, since the price is 380). I'm expecting MeeGo to help it in the high end market, but I don't honestly think the company is in any more or less danger than other companies in the recession.
Edit: the article might be concentrating on Nokia in the US, they are doing pretty badly there, I'll admit that.
I think the money is in the high end market and I think Nokia is going to go after it VERY aggressively.
I am really surprised that they are lagging with their products because they were the leaders in both the cell phone and Internet tablet markets. By all rights they should be kicking Apple's butt.
Maybe they need to read this:
http://apple.slashdot.org/story/10/04/20/1246231/History-Repeats-Itself-mdash-Mac-amp-the-iPad
Personally, I think a totally open source development process is
even better than this. Just look at how far Fedora has come recently.
twoboxen
2010-05-06, 15:29
Hey, how is not listening and/or communicating with your customers working out for you, Nokia?
EDIT: Survey was a good idea, but it may have been too late in the game. Reward current customers and they will become REPEAT customers (see: Apple's business model). Screw your current customers and you will create a jaded base that will not buy any of your future products (no matter how compelling) as they have been burned before.
Hey, how is not listening and/or communicating with your customers working out for you, Nokia?
I wonder if stuff like this even registers with Nokia?
Anyway... if anything, only Nokia can save Nokia. The price of doing business in a global market is being more communicative. Something even IBM and others have learned how to do...
Crashdamage
2010-05-06, 15:43
MeeGo will not save Nokia. But MeeGo + Symbian + Qt will save Nokia. MeeGo will save Nokia's reputation.
I think it was brilliant for Nokia to buy Qt.
I predict that one of the cell phone manufacturers will buy ARM.
fatalsaint
2010-05-06, 15:46
MeeGo will not save Nokia. But MeeGo + Symbian + Qt will save Nokia. MeeGo will save Nokia's reputation.
Well; people that really just want to hate on Nokia will just say Intel did all the work ;).
MeeGo is Nokia and Intel, remember.
MeeGo will save Nokia's reputation.
Yep, and thus the whole company. With all the hate from the shiny-loving media, Nokia's lower end devices are on the verge of becoming too uncool.
kojacker
2010-05-06, 15:54
Intel are the only ones who have shown anything of progress with Meego so far, it's easier to forget that Nokia is involved. Hopefully that will all change next month..
Kallasvuo asserted that in 2010, the company will "introduce a new generation of devices that is expected to help close the gap with the competition in high-end smartphones," and he continued by claiming that Nokia's approach "has been to concentrate on fewer, competitive products that bring the features of Symbian-based smartphones to more and more people around the world."
I doubt very much high management consider Maemo/Meego as much more than a side project, if they even heard of it. Until someone with fresh ideas and approach reaches senior management, imo the status quo will remain with the majority of Nokia's eggs in the Symbian basket.
Symbian is a dead end, unless Nokia can get a developer community that is going to release apps for it like Apple gets with its app store. Nobody is going to do that.
Nokia's development team can hardly keep up with OS and phone applications let alone compete with what Apple has going with its App store.
Its the WHOLE PRODUCT that matters. Hardware, OS, 3rd party apps, support, user community support, etc.
People are releasing apps for Android though and I'm guessing its not going to take much to port Android apps to MeeGo.
I think its great that MeeGo developers will have QT-Quick and Qt-Creator to use for tools.
Nokia (et al) really need to get the GUI part of Meego released.
Only thing I'm wondering now is that why on earth did they invest so little money on the software development side during 2008 and 2009...
kojacker
2010-05-06, 16:11
Only thing I'm wondering now is that why on earth did they invest so little money on the software development side during 2008 and 2009...
They spent $410 million, in 2008, to buy the remaining 52 percent of Symbian. And then open sourced it.
well i waited for 6months for the n97 to be released, pre ordered it costing £500, it was absolutely terrible until 6months later when fw2.0 made it barely acceptable, but by then i hated it, and hated them!
swore blind that id never ever give them my money again.
then did a lot of research looking for my next phone and ended up with the n900, so nokia must be doing something right for me to give them another £500 for the n900,
(thats £1000 in 6months i gave them by the way)
but ill never but a phone again until its been on the market for at least 4months, i think a lot of people are very wary about choosing nokia now, and i think there making absotutely sure pr1.2 is ready before releasing it, so they dont look like plums again, cos it would be the end of them if they bricked everyones phone
but i agree with these points:
scrapping maemo?
lack of apps?
no news on firmware fixes ? (that are desperately needed by most)
and throwing more money at symbian?
someone at nokia needs a slap!
need to get back to the n95 days when nokia ruled the world
and forget the usa market, make awesome products that actually work, and the usa buyers will come to them
simples!
twoboxen
2010-05-06, 16:17
People are releasing apps for Android though and I'm guessing its not going to take much to port Android apps to MeeGo.
You guess incorrectly. Though you can kinda leverage JNI to use native code in an Android app (my Android apps use it, since I wrote the core engine in c... to make it work well with the iPhone, Qt, etc), most people don't, because it's a pain. Nearly all of the Android apps are 100% Java. So basically, you have to re-implement almost everything, and that isn't even considering the OS API differences--merely your logic.
They spent $410 million, in 2008, to buy the remaining 52 percent of Symbian. And then open sourced it.
And its useless. Total waste of money.
Symbian is and has been a dead platform for a while. Once Nokia bought Symbian everyone one else dropped it or tried to.
Only Apple can get buy in from the development community with a proprietary OS. That is the beauty of Meego. Its collaborative and the installed platform is going to be huge.
They spent $410 million, in 2008, to buy the remaining 52 percent of Symbian. And then open sourced it.
Oh, I almost forgot that :p
Then they should really deliver with symbian^4 or Nokia is truly losing the whole tournament.
You guess incorrectly. Though you can kinda leverage JNI to use native code in an Android app (my Android apps use it, since I wrote the core engine in c... to make it work well with the iPhone, Qt, etc), most people don't, because it's a pain. Nearly all of the Android apps are 100% Java. So basically, you have to re-implement almost everything, and that isn't even considering the OS API differences--merely your logic.
There is no reason why Meego can't support Java apps. As a matter of fact I think Qt has a layer for this.
Nothing would give Meego a boost out of the gate like if it allowed users to run the whole portfolio of Android apps.
Some of the iPhone based apps run on Android. The same needs to happen with Meego.
And its useless. Total waste of money.
Symbian is and has been a dead platform for a while. Once Nokia bought Symbian everyone one else dropped it or tried to.
Symbian is not useless. The N8 has a 680 MHz ARM11 CPU. Maemo would be awful on it, whereas the current N8 is supposed to feature 60 fps transitions, destroy the N900 in battery life, and feature the best camera in the market while being thinner.
Bloggers are of course concentrating on the CPU and calling it a failure before they've seen it, but if Nokia can manage to finish the software before launch this time, that thing is going to eat everyone else's lunch at <400 euros.
There is no reason why Meego can't support Java apps. As a matter of fact I think Qt has a layer for this.
Nothing would give Meego a boost out of the gate like if it allowed users to run the whole portfolio of Android apps.
Mobile devices are still RAM-limited. It's not a good option imho, especially when lazy developers would just start coding everything for Android first and then releasing bad ports for Maemo months late.
Unlike Apple, Nokia will not prevent us from coming up with a solution of our own, but as an official policy it would suck.
twoboxen
2010-05-06, 16:36
There is no reason why Meego can't support Java apps. As a matter of fact I think Qt has a layer for this.
Nothing would give Meego a boost out of the gate like if it allowed users to run the whole portfolio of Android apps.
Some of the iPhone based apps run on Android. The same needs to happen with Meego.
Sigh... they're not leveraging "java" other than the language itself. The JVM you're thinking of is NOT the Dalvik VM that Android uses. So lets assume the Dalvik VM is ported. Now you have to actually port the APi to support the VM which supports the language java.
"iPhone-based apps run on Android". Out of curiousity, are you a developer? If not, you can be forgiven, as most people might not know how apps are actually written for specific APIs for specific platforms with specific languages. If you are a developer, please re-read my post a few up.
"iPhone-based apps run on Android".
I didn't mean it that way. I meant some iPhone apps are running on Android, meaning that they have been ported by the developers.
ie http://www.android.com/market/#app=golfcard, for instance.
If Nokia wants their devices to be competitive in the market, they need to have a competitive stable of apps. Just like the early Macs had to be able to what the established competitor, ie Windows, could do.
Developers are going to balk at porting to 3 platforms, ie iPhone, Android and Meego, unless there is a lot of commonality and its easy to port.
The best would be if developers used Qt on all these platforms. Symbian also supports Qt apps...
Porting an API is probably much easier than everyone porting all their apps ?
One way or another, the "apps" issue has to be addressed. I don't think that Nokia wants to get into the business of developing golf applications in order to sell their phones. That means the development community must be willing to do it and Nokia must do whatever it takes to ensure that happens.
and forget the usa market, make awesome products that actually work, and the usa buyers will come to them
simples!
Probably no. Care to look how cell phone market work in USA. IIRC Texrat had quite good blog post about this.
And its useless. Total waste of money.
Symbian is and has been a dead platform for a while. Once Nokia bought Symbian everyone one else dropped it or tried to.
Dead platform. Have you checked out market shares lately? Also QT and games+apps coming on N8 so to my eyes it looks bit different. Care to back your facts with some data.
Fact is that there is at least TWO different markets that have submarkets. Things aren't so simple as some people might think they are. Of course we as citizen of developed country fail to think/see what happens elswhere in world.
twoboxen
2010-05-06, 16:53
Developers are going to balk at porting to 3 platforms, ie iPhone, Android and Meego, unless there is a lot of commonality and its easy to port.
The best would be if developers used Qt on all these platforms. Symbian also supports Qt apps...
Porting an API is probably much easier than everyone porting all their apps ?
So you're left with a few options...
1. Have Apple/OHA(Android) support Qt (and have iPhone/Android apps re-written based on Qt)
2. Have Nokia try to implement (or reverse engineer in the iPhone's case) the frameworks required. Being that Android is mostly open source, that may be possible, but probably not worth the time.
3. Ideally, have Android complete their NDK to allow 100% native development. That would be AWESOME. However, unlikely at this point.
if #3 were to happen, a "bridge" API could be written for each framework (essential what Qt does to work with the same code for its supported OS's) so a single code base would work. Actually, if Qt devs would add Android as a supported OS, that would be sweet. Without a full NDK, though, it's a huge task. iPhone support would be unlikely, yet technically easier as many of the frameworks are identical to the OSX frameworks (not ALL, but many). It would be unlikely due to Apple's defensive stance of their code (see: flash SDKs that work on the iPhone, but agreements that prevent its use).
Regardless, many apps will have to be rewritten in Qt. Aside from that, if Nokia invested in Qt ports to Android and Apple we'd be good from here forward if devs leverage it.
Enyibinakata
2010-05-06, 17:02
And its useless. Total waste of money.
Symbian is and has been a dead platform for a while. Once Nokia bought Symbian everyone one else dropped it or tried to.
Only Apple can get buy in from the development community with a proprietary OS. That is the beauty of Meego. Its collaborative and the installed platform is going to be huge.
I shudder at the degree of ignorance on display in this thread. So Symbian is a dead platform ? A platform that runs on more phones than that of the nearest 3 competing platforms combined?.
Meego is unproven, Symbian has been there and done that and is by far the most pervasive and functional of the lot. All it needs is a bit of makeover and Symbian 3 will deliver that. Nokia is not going anywhere. It has been KING for 12 years and despite the noise of ignorant US bloggers , its reign will continue. Pls dont be so ignorant.
Enyibinakata
2010-05-06, 17:05
Dead platform. Have you checked out market shares lately? Also QT and games+apps coming on N8 so to my eyes it looks bit different. Care to back your facts with some data.
Fact is that there is at least TWO different markets that have submarkets. Things aren't so simple as some people might think they are. Of course we as citizen of developed country fail to think/see anything else than what happens elswhere.
Dont mind him. Probable a gizmodo reader.
Enyibinakata
2010-05-06, 17:10
I didn't mean it that way. I meant some iPhone apps are running on Android, meaning that they have been ported by the developers.
ie http://www.android.com/market/#app=golfcard, for instance.
If Nokia wants their devices to be competitive in the market, they need to have a competitive stable of apps. Just like the early Macs had to be able to what the established competitor, ie Windows, could do.
Developers are going to balk at porting to 3 platforms, ie iPhone, Android and Meego, unless there is a lot of commonality and its easy to port.
The best would be if developers used Qt on all these platforms. Symbian also supports Qt apps...
Porting an API is probably much easier than everyone porting all their apps ?
One way or another, the "apps" issue has to be addressed. I don't think that Nokia wants to get into the business of developing golf applications in order to sell their phones. That means the development community must be willing to do it and Nokia must do whatever it takes to ensure that happens.
You all are missing the point with regards to apps. Adobe will play a key role here in the shape of AIR. Apps written for AIR will run on all supported platforms. Nokia is a member of the OpenScreenProject so AIR for Symbian is probably in the works.
kojacker
2010-05-06, 17:17
You all are missing the point with regards to apps. Adobe will play a key role here in the shape of AIR. Apps written for AIR will run on all supported platforms. Nokia is a member of the OpenScreenProject so AIR for Symbian is probably in the works.
Yeah, it'll be right up there with Flash Lite. Pass.
i had the company wrong but I knew Nokia would need to join forces with some big company. It's over for nokia they will drop to about 18-22% marketshare, the time for the rebound has pasted. People expected big things from the n97 perfectly design but the hardware sucked as it is too underpowered, so any software improvements are minimal at best the device has no longevity.
They then go and make the N900 again underpowered but this hardware is the best they've stuck into a device, runs linux so people are excited. But then they cause a bunch of hooplah about the software upgrades making most (who bought) uneasy some even angry.
HP buying Palm, if they get it together palm people developing webos while HP's people make the hardware. I can't imagine them releasing one device at a time, but they will definately attack the low end. About the time hp has this together we should see the results of nokia's efforts as well.
win mob 7 has time to get win mob 7 improved as nokia makes their improvements. The kin shows what they are aiming at.
android- severly attacking the high end with htc's help and if recent moves are any indication google doesn't even acknowledge nokia as a competitor, they are going head to head with apple, once you get a slice of the high end squashing the low end is easy. So when it comes at nokia it'll be swift because nokia is so slow to respond and really far behind the curve
apple I hate apple but they are suceeding imo because of marketing but they are scared and the lawsuits are a tell they want to patent the unpatentable concepts but can't move forward without others patents thus the lawsuits in hopes of resulting in a patent exchange
with all this competition Nokia won't bounce back without flawless execution. I have no confidence as of now they can do whats necessary, shame too they make decent phones they just need to support them better.
danramos
2010-05-06, 17:40
Yeah, it'll be right up there with Flash Lite. Pass.
Oh God, agreed. Personally, I'm not sure that I like Flash (or ANY of Adobe's garbage) on my phone device (hence why I liked NOT having a cellular phone in my N800 and didn't mind Flash on it). With all this talk of Flash coming to Android, I'm going to hope they make it a separate and installable app and not force it on me as part of an OS upgrade.
As for Adobe's AIR... even on the desktop... I tried it. I was not impressed. Not at all. DO NOT WANT.
Enyibinakata
2010-05-06, 17:46
Yeah, it'll be right up there with Flash Lite. Pass.
Have you used AIR before or seen it in action? Ignorant.
danramos
2010-05-06, 18:07
Have you used AIR before or seen it in action? Ignorant.
Prejudiced much? You claim he's ignorant before he even gets to answer. I, for one, have tried it. It was garbage and rife with issues. If anyone appears ignorant now, it might be you.
You guess incorrectly. Though you can kinda leverage JNI to use native code in an Android app (my Android apps use it, since I wrote the core engine in c... to make it work well with the iPhone, Qt, etc), most people don't, because it's a pain. Nearly all of the Android apps are 100% Java. So basically, you have to re-implement almost everything, and that isn't even considering the OS API differences--merely your logic.
If you continue with this attitude, and you're a decent software developer, you'll leave easy money on the table. Some of the good software houses are supporting 5 mobile OS's; the minimum is 2. Go the extra mile and continue to abstract your solutions. Take what's yours. If you can't handle the reality that there's more than one OS out there, you might want to move aside before you get flattened. Java, iPhone OS, Symbian, and anything GNU/Linux based, all have solid underpinnings (and some shared [OpenGL ES]), and it seems they all will be here for a while.
Porting is fun. If you don't feel that way, you might be in the wrong arena. Regardless of what you think about the U.S. Military, one of the Marine Corps' mantras applies here:
"Improvise, Adapt and Overcome"
twoboxen
2010-05-06, 18:46
If you continue with this attitude, and you're a decent software developer, you'll leave easy money on the table. Some of the good software houses are supporting 5 mobile OS's; the minimum is 2. Go the extra mile and continue to abstract your solutions. Take what's yours. If you can't handle the reality that there's more than one OS out there, you might want to move aside before you get flattened. Java, iPhone OS, Symbian, and anything GNU/Linux based, all have solid underpinnings (and some shared [OpenGL ES]), and it seems they all will be here for a while.
Porting is fun. If you don't feel that way, you might be in the wrong arena. Regardless of what you think about the U.S. Military, one of the Marine Corps' mantras applies here:
"Improvise, Adapt and Overcome"
FYI I wrote my own engine that supports (not the complete API, but enough) for a single code base to build on iPhone, Android, Maemo, WinMo, Mac, Linux, Windows, JavaSE, etc. I use OpenGL(ES), OpenAL (when supported, other sound tools otherwise) all wrapping my own widgets.
I hardly make any money from all this, since it was a night hobby before I had my first kid last year. Now I just program in my day job and collect VERY SMALL amounts of passive income from that hobby.
Attitude. pssshh. I imagine I'm a lot closer to these issues than most--including you.
Enyibinakata
2010-05-06, 18:49
Prejudiced much? You claim he's ignorant before he even gets to answer. I, for one, have tried it. It was garbage and rife with issues. If anyone appears ignorant now, it might be you.
I use Tweet Deck and NYTimes on windows and it looks and feels good plus works a charm. So I know what I am talking about. I wont dismiss Adobe just because Jobs does, I have a mind of my own.
Which AIR apps have you used exactly ?.
ignorance [ˈɪgnərəns]
n
lack of knowledge, information, or education; the state of being ignorant
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ignorance
This is an interesting document to read:
Nokia's Software Strategy (http://www.nokia.com/NOKIA_COM_1/Technology/pdf/Nokia_software_strategy_white_paper.pdf)
Look at the diagram on the first page. Meego doesn't look like anyone's saviour, up there in the top right corner.
Here's a slightly different version of the same graph, from a presentation I attended earlier this week. Same message; Meego is a niche OS, Symbian and Series 40 are going to be running on most of Nokia's hardware.
(EDIT: What the heck does the "Rational <--> Aspirational" axis mean?! :confused:)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4059/4584861240_f2640e5a80_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/qole2/4584861240/)
twoboxen
2010-05-06, 18:55
(EDIT: What the heck does the "Rational <--> Aspirational" axis mean?! :confused:)
"What we think will happen" <--> "What we want to happen"
@qole: uhhh... MeeGo is definitely NOT rational according to that graph.
(This was another edit to the first post, but that isn't the right way to do it, so here it is in its own post)
RE: The pink stuff to the right of Meego's red blob... Do they think they're saying that there will be high-end Symbian devices that are even more "Aspirational" than MeeGo? And what do you think that little triangle in the top right is? "No devices made here"?
twoboxen
2010-05-06, 19:02
And what do you think that little triangle in the top right is?
"My screen can only fit so much of the ellipse tool"?
HangLoose
2010-05-06, 19:03
Here's a slightly different version of the same graph, from a presentation I attended earlier this week. Same message; Meego is a niche OS, Symbian and Series 40 are going to be running on most of Nokia's hardware.
They might be referring to the pricing scheme and on which position sits the devices. Also a comparission of the amount of high end devices that would be shipped compared to the low end.
More or less like Ferrari and Fiat... Fiat sells the most cars but Ferraris makes the biggest profit.
Do they think they're saying that there will be high-end Symbian devices that are even more "Aspirational" than MeeGo?
"Aspirational brand (or product) means a large segment of its exposure audience wishes to own it, but for economical reasons cannot. An aspirational product implies certain positive characteristics to the user, but the supply appears limited due to limited production quantities." Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirational_brand)
The even more aspirational Symbian devices suggest that Nokia might start making Symbian phones under it's luxury brand Vertu. Buying a Meego device is the rational choice. The 10 000 euro gold plated Vertu Symbian device with encrusted diamond being the Aspirational choice for russian oligarchs, arab oil-sheiks and british footballer wifes.
What the heck does the "Rational <--> Aspirational" axis mean?!
Products for people who mostly buy on basis price and/or quality <---> Products for people who mostly buy on the basis of marketing and what is perceived trendy or fancy.
Crashdamage
2010-05-06, 19:30
It's over for nokia they will drop to about 18-22% marketshare, the time for the rebound has pasted.
Their share has actually increased slightly. It's far from over. It's still very early in the mobile device game.
They then go and make the N900 again underpowered but this hardware is the best they've stuck into a device,
Underpowered? At release it was the most kick-butt hardware available. Still is pretty much. Underpowered...I wanna warp drive in mine while they're at it.
HP buying Palm, if they get it together palm people developing webos while HP's people make the hardware. I can't imagine them releasing one device at a time, but they will definately attack the low end.
Like Dell, Garmin and others, HP will find breaking into a (new for them) well-stocked market tough. Especially the low end. I don't like their chances.
win mob 7 has time to get win mob 7 improved as nokia makes their improvements.
Hey, above you said Nokia's time for rebound had passed, despite their massive and increasing market share. But Windblows has time, despite having a minor and shrinking share? Which is it?
The kin shows what they are aiming at.
Low. Too low.
once you get a slice of the high end squashing the low end is easy.
Why? It's two different markets.
I hate apple but they are suceeding imo because of marketing but they are scared and the lawsuits are a tell they want to patent the unpatentable concepts but can't move forward without others patents thus the lawsuits in hopes of resulting in a patent exchange
Apple should've learned 20 years ago that a totally closed system will eventually lose. Then again, maybe they do remember and that's why they set loose a legal army against those who would oppose the Emperor
Jobs.
Crashdamage
2010-05-06, 19:39
[I]...what do you think that little triangle in the top right is? "No devices made here"?
James Bond or Superhero stuff.
danramos
2010-05-06, 19:41
I use Tweet Deck and NYTimes on windows and it looks and feels good plus works a charm. So I know what I am talking about. I wont dismiss Adobe just because Jobs does, I have a mind of my own.
Which AIR apps have you used exactly ?.
ignorance [ˈɪgnərəns]
n
lack of knowledge, information, or education; the state of being ignorant
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ignorance
Keep in mind that your experiences are not mine. That being said, I will again state that I DO NOT WANT.
I don't recall precisely what I played with over the several days I tried out running AIR (duh--I didn't like it, why would I pay attention to what I ran?) but I think they were supposed to be Adobe gadgets that ran on AIR. It was clunky and incredibly resource intensive, not to even mention all the security issues that they have yet to address in ALL their products much less something as "new" as AIR (relatively new).
Yes, I believe I used ignorant in the correct way. When you labeled him "ignorant", you clearly didn't base it on any response back to your question, and so made yourself appear ignorant and prejudiced. Did you have some kind of knowledge about his experience that neither of you shared? Prejudice and ignorance often go together, you see. Try looking up prejudice, too. I sprinkled it around in this message for you so you wouldn't be ignorant about the hint.
FYI I wrote my own engine that supports (not the complete API, but enough) for a single code base to build on iPhone, Android, Maemo, WinMo, Mac, Linux, Windows, JavaSE, etc. I use OpenGL(ES), OpenAL (when supported, other sound tools otherwise) all wrapping my own widgets.
I hardly make any money from all this, since it was a night hobby before I had my first kid last year. Now I just program in my day job and collect VERY SMALL amounts of passive income from that hobby.
Attitude. pssshh. I imagine I'm a lot closer to these issues than most--including you.
Sorry, I responded because you were being kind of a downer. But since we're whipping it out, I was doing JNI before it was called JNI. JNI wasn't introduced till 1.1. I did six straight years of nothing but server-side Java (well, also some Perl and kernel hacking during that time). Using JNI to call reentrant C functions using heavily shared memory was where the core technology resided. This code was hit by up to one million simultaneous users and didn't blink (links on AOL's front page). I know better than most what the right tool is for the job, maybe even you.
I just think you should to turn your frown upside down.
twoboxen
2010-05-06, 20:25
I just think you should to turn your frown upside down.
Fair enough. I hate pissing contests. fin.
Here's what Nokia needs to save itself:
1- QT, if implemented and marketed well.
2- A solid strong Ovi store, extending beyond Nokia devices to other platforms (e.g. Meego devices)
3- Shiny, finger friendly Symbian
4- Proper implementation of Meego
5- More dumbphones to maintain market share (especially in developing countries)
6- Aggressive competition in the USA, this is where hypes are created
7- More value added services (free nav, music...)
8- Fewer phones, more concentration.
Symbian might have a lot of market share, like GM sells a lot of cars. That doesn't mean they are in a good TREND. As far as trends go, Symbian is dead. Nokia wouldn't be working on Maemo and MeeGo if they thought Symbian was their future.
http://surgeworksmobile.com/iphone/nokias-symbian-goes-open-source-market-share-dropping-still-dominates-the-market
It would take a lot of "revamping" to make Symbian competitive with other OSes.
I think Nokia is dreaming with what they expect Symbian to do in their chart.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10398202-16.html
@me2000
You still failed to realize that the game arena where Nokia is playing is much bigger than what you are seeing. Do you understand that Symbian will stay for quite long in market. Probably it won´t get so big anymore as Meego start to take it´s own share and also competition tightens on high end phones. FACT is that there is right now no competition on low end market on Nokia. With symbian and s40 they can use really low powered and cheap electornics. That OS is optimized for that kind of hardware.
Symbian was meant to be used on low powered cheap non touchscreen phones. Those phones will not vanish in couple of years.
And about your trends. If Nokia manages to pump cheap phones with Symbian^3 on them to people who can't afford on iphone and other high end and expensive phones then you will have huge user base and "trend".
.edit
Do you even read links what you put in your message. I just read the first one and realized that in the end is exactly stuff what I´m trying to say to you:
"...People will go on buying Symbian powered phones because they are cheap, widespread (they likely already know how to interact with the device), and they provide the closer experience to a modern smartphone that they can afford..."
Right tool for right job.
HellFlyer
2010-05-06, 21:51
Symbian was meant to be used on low powered cheap non touchscreen phones. Those phones will not vanish in couple of years.
And about your trends. If Nokia manages to pump cheap phones with Symbian^3 on them to people who can't afford on iphone and other high end and expensive phones then you will have huge user base and "trend".
That's true and Nokia's Symbian is not the only OS which failed to adopt to touchscreen technologies. If you take a look at RIM you'll see similar pattern with an exception that Blackberries were mostly intended for business use where touch interface was unnecessary until iPhone . RIM is struggling to create touchscreen phones ( Storm was a complete failure) and get more market share as well
Customer's taste changes all the time and companies sometimes fail to adopt.
As much as I loved my N95 8Gb I wanted to have a touchphone :D N900 was my choice :p
christexaport
2010-05-06, 22:12
Here's what Nokia needs to save itself:
1- QT, if implemented and marketed well.
2- A solid strong Ovi store, extending beyond Nokia devices to other platforms (e.g. Meego devices)
3- Shiny, finger friendly Symbian
4- Proper implementation of Meego
5- More dumbphones to maintain market share (especially in developing countries)
6- Aggressive competition in the USA, this is where hypes are created
7- More value added services (free nav, music...)
8- Fewer phones, more concentration.
Maybe I'm stupid, but I'd rather be Nokia than any other mobile company at the moment. They have implemented a great strategy, are gaining momentum, and have the foundation to lead for another half decade. Not sure its not the competitors that need saving.
As for your plan:
I totally agree with you on Qt. I say contribute a port to Android and RIM as well. I want Qt to be ubiquitous. Proprietary app ecosystems need to die a painful death in favor of cross platform technologies.
Ovi Store may eventually become a media portal more than an app store. I'll be impressed when it includes Nokia's music and video catalog for streams or download, and is on other manufacturers devices and OSes. Also, they have to get more of the available apps listed in Ovi. JBak Taskman, Open Video Hub, and Coreplayer come to mind...
I have little doubt Symbian will be amazing. They took their time to avoid another appless code break like with 3rd Edition. 3 years is enough to get things together, and the feature set will become a factor in the maturing US market.
MeeGo will sell itself based on its lack of competition. It has enough support from the industry. Which will help the app base. I just hope it gets some great camera and form factor love.
Nokia needs to convert dumbphones to lower end smartphones, not make more dummies. It gets lower cost consumers into your service umbrella, and makes it more probable they'll buy a more expensive model next time.
US visibility is all up to the carriers. I hope they can negotiate an iPhone-like marketing deal. They have the services, only rivaled by Google and Microsoft, and neither are close to dominating the market.
The portfolio has already been shortened to fewer devices. I'm waiting on a VOIP and music streaming service, maybe a buy of MySpace, but so far I like what they're doing.
christexaport
2010-05-06, 22:17
That's true and Nokia's Symbian is not the only OS which failed to adapt to touchscreen technologies.
Newsflash!! Nokia sells more touchscreen converged devices than anyone on earth. "Failed to adapt"? Symbian was touch long ago with UIQ.
Their share has actually increased slightly. It's far from over. It's still very early in the mobile device game. Pretty short sight and offbase to say what their marketshare is when I'm addressing what the marketshare will be. I'd love to entertain your reasoning on why they will be able to maintain or increase their market share, that would be a great post inside of well you know, what I quoted above. Thanks.
Underpowered? At release it was the most kick-butt hardware available. Still is pretty much. Underpowered...I wanna warp drive in mine while they're at it.It's very underpowered when your consider 2 things: It was late to market palm pre and the 3gs share similiar if slightly more powerful hardware. When the hardware refresh comes your either behind the curve or upsetting your userbase if you refresh and drop support, sound familiar ? point 2- software powers the hardware and nokia's is a mess right now and when you include hardware in a device but refuse to support it not only is that stupid but it's worse then not having the feature at all. Now a competitor can take advantage of your bullet point(s) because essentially that's all it is if the feature(s) doesn't work.
Like Dell, Garmin and others, HP will find breaking into a (new for them) well-stocked market tough. Especially the low end. I don't like their chances.Webos has a pretty dedicated following most have nothing but praise for the OS. All HP has to dois provide the proper hardware to run it on for it's true potential to be realize, well that and proper marketing. So if hp\palm's new low end device becomes a 600-800mhz webos device you don't like it's chances ?? Consider the deeply discounted 30 dollar Verison pre what of a slight tweak to hardware to make it cheaper to produce and give it a bit more headroom is webOS's lowend ? that be simply and nice
Hey, above you said Nokia's time for rebound had passed, despite their massive and increasing market share. But Windblows has time, despite having a minor and shrinking share? Which is it?Wow, such a short statement has so many fallacies. First it's not a either or situation, you do well to restrain from creating false dilemma or misrepresent my views. To clarify I doubt because of my opinion Nokia is gonna read my post and say "pack it up guys, it's over slick just posted it and it's not looking good" No. They will continue with the plans they have and I remember hearing something about 2011. So ms who is launching products THIS YEAR HAS TIME to get competitive win7 mob looks solid but unfinished but to it's credit when it comes to development tools nokia can't compare to ms and it's support it provides to devs.
Low. Too low.Oh did you think kin was their high end ? Interesting
Why? It's two different markets. Not gonna explain that to you it's easy enough to figure out as is everything else I've posted if you think and consider, instead of knee jerk reactions.
Apple should've learned 20 years ago that a totally closed system will eventually lose. Then again, maybe they do remember and that's why they set loose a legal army against those who would oppose the Emperor
Jobs.I am not pro apple say what we will they are succeeding, mostly because companies are stupid and make dumb moves or do nothing.
what goes up must come down :D
Newsflash!! Nokia sells more touchscreen converged devices than anyone on earth. "Failed to adapt"? Symbian was touch long ago with UIQ.
You might need to explain this one
attila77
2010-05-07, 08:46
I predict that one of the cell phone manufacturers will buy ARM.
This is something that has been long speculated with, however, in reality, the long term gains are rather dubios. ARM is not a factory, it’s IP. If you buy it (or, to be precise, gain a controlling share in it’s future), you suddenly made a whole lot of enemies. Sure, it’s a short term win, but ARM *DOES* need the license fees collected from the millions/billions of ARM devices and the plethora of semiconductor manufacturers around to be able to grow. If you just make it your own chip-dev, you essentially killed it on the long term and sent everyone screaming into Intel’s arms - you will be king for a while, but Intel dominance will explode and in a product cycle or two ARM will be worthless in the smartphone arena.
This thread is way above me.....anyway
Quoting the Bloomberg article, [some of you declared it to be farce ]
"Nokia, based in Espoo, Finland, spent almost six times as much as Apple on R&D last year, yet has failed to develop a device with the same mass appeal as the multi-application iPhone."
"investors said. Nokia’s annual R&D budget of about $7.7 billion is 14 percent of revenue, compared with Apple’s spending of $1.3 billion, or 3 percent of sales."
"“The best way to leverage Nokia’s strengths is to be a mass producer of cheaper, good quality products, which would rapidly lower their R&D costs,” said Pedersen."
Going by the above, if Nokia slashes R&D budgets, guess the question shd be ''Who will save Meego"?
Crashdamage
2010-05-07, 10:18
@Slick...
Your reply #65 is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start - nor do I have the time or inclination. Let's just say either you misunderstand me or I think you're just plain wrong. :-)
benny1967
2010-05-07, 10:35
That's true and Nokia's Symbian is not the only OS which failed to adopt to touchscreen technologies.
I believe analysts and bloggers overestimate the "touch-screen" factor at the moment. It's a hype, such as the clamshell phones were a few lifetimes ago until one day somebody woke up and said: "Hey, that's nonsense... Wouldn't it be so much easier if i could operate this phone without having to open it before? Just like in the old days?"
It's pretty much the same with touch screens. They are modern, they're the cool thing to have, they're different than the devices our parents had two decades ago... But then you have to cover them from bright sunlight, start an application and carefully press or swipe across the right spots on a flat surface in order to make a simple phone call! - And I'm not even starting to talk about text input... One day, somebody will wake up in the morning an remember: "Hey, isn't that nonsense? I used to be able to call my better half simply by pressing and holding "6" on my phone. I didn't even have to look at the phone in order to do this. Why can't I... - Why did they waste all this space on the front of this device with glass?" Then we'll have phones again.
The current situation only means that those who created the touch screen craze benfit from in. Sure they would. But that doesn't mean companies need to focus on touch devices only to be successful in the future. And of course it doesn't mean that a company's long-term success should be judged by their ability to produce compelling touch-screen devices.
While i don't think it's wrong to say that Nokia failed in TS market they in 2009 already became largest TS phone manufacturer. The thing that they are missing is truly new UI for 2010.
Symbian is funny in a way that it's very advanced. It got demand paging for 4 years already and S^3 will be the first one from the major OSs to use GPU to help when browsing UI for example. The seed of all problems behind Symbian is AVKON and the weird Symbian C++ framework that comes with it. This means that while there is over 200 million Symbian phone out there OVI store got ~10 000 applications compared to iphones 150 000. With AVKON you can also go just that far with the UI design.
If there's a Nokia saver it's not MeeGo, it's Qt. Symbian will actually be the new S40, new volume OS and Harmattan MeeGo will be the Symbian that it was for it's first 5-6 years. Qt based Symbian(S^4 and everything after that)will be at least just as important for Nokia as Harmattan/MeeGo(that will be the first Qt based) that will be true high end OS and i'm very happy Nokia did that.
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb95/tissotti/platform.jpg
Qt and QT SDK takes application development to a different level and you can wait some actually modern feeling UI's and looking. Anybody who have tested Widget Gallery probally understands why i'm talking about modern feeling UI's. :)
Qt is no win button, but it sure gives possibility for Nokia to make Harmattan something actually better than iphone in pure UI sense rather than just something that's ok. Hopefully Nokia can deliver with Harmattan/MeeGo because i really like the idea behind Maemo.
I believe analysts and bloggers overestimate the "touch-screen" factor at the moment. It's a hype, such as the clamshell phones were a few lifetimes ago until one day somebody woke up and said: "Hey, that's nonsense... Wouldn't it be so much easier if i could operate this phone without having to open it before? Just like in the old days?"
It's pretty much the same with touch screens. They are modern, they're the cool thing to have, they're different than the devices our parents had two decades ago... But then you have to cover them from bright sunlight, start an application and carefully press or swipe across the right spots on a flat surface in order to make a simple phone call! - And I'm not even starting to talk about text input... One day, somebody will wake up in the morning an remember: "Hey, isn't that nonsense? I used to be able to call my better half simply by pressing and holding "6" on my phone. I didn't even have to look at the phone in order to do this. Why can't I... - Why did they waste all this space on the front of this device with glass?" Then we'll have phones again.
The current situation only means that those who created the touch screen craze benfit from in. Sure they would. But that doesn't mean companies need to focus on touch devices only to be successful in the future. And of course it doesn't mean that a company's long-term success should be judged by their ability to produce compelling touch-screen devices.
While I understand that you have personal preference to hardware keys (As do I, when I need to type long pieces), I think you're overlooking many of touchscreen's advantages.
For one, they're not just a different form factor like clamshells which you've made a comparison to. It changes the whole interface and
device's functionality, while having a significant effect to the device's form factor. Compared to phones with slide-out keyboard, they're considerably thinner. Compared to phones with qwerty keyboard on its face, they give the user's at least 2x bigger screen size.
It makes the phone cheaper and more universal. A change of input mode (screen controller, touchscreen, multiple keyboard configuration: qwerty, qwertz, azerty, etc) is just a few clicks away.
Etc... etc... etc...
I think touchscreen is here to stay and it will be the beneficiary of new technologies in that sector: haptic feedback, combined capacitive\resistive technology, whatnot...
benny1967
2010-05-07, 11:34
While I understand that you have personal preference to hardware keys (As do I, when I need to type long pieces), I think you're overlooking many of touchscreen's advantages.
I'm not overlooking them - it's just that I believe they either are relevant only in certain use cases or do not outweigh the disadvantages in the end.
I do agree the touch screen is here to stay, the same way we still see clamshell devices. (And I do happily use touch devices such as the 770/N800/N810/N900 and couldn't imagine these devices without one.)
I just don't believe that the touch screen is ideal for a phone - and I think that for a lot of people, the phone use case is still the most important. (Even though they want a device that can navigate and fetch their emails and run applications if they really need to.) I believe there's a market for both; but as I said in the beginning: The role of the touch-devices in this market is overestimated at the moment. They're here to stay as you say, but I believe we'll see more non-touch devices too in the future. (Not in 2010/2011 though. Too many investments made.)
christexaport
2010-05-07, 12:49
You might need to explain this one
I really think my response was curt and obvious, but...
This post is about saving Nokia, and if MeeGo can do it. From my position, they don't need saving.
They sell more smartphones, touchscreen devices, and cellphones than anyonePERIOD! No other company has EVER held a larger piece of the market BUT Nokia. The world's IT tech leader and biggest enterprise solutions company, Microsoft, tried a restructuring similar to Nokia, only their smartphone market share collapsed. They made a clean code break with WP7, and with IT departments having to decide if a fresh start is prudent, it has no guarantee to rise back to its previous dominant level from the WinMo days. To keep its software suite accessible to customers, they chose Nokia's enterprise Eseries devices. Getting such an endorsement from a competitor is flattering, especially when RIM is also entrenched in the same market, probably more.
YOU claim Symbian failed to adapt properly to touch. Symbian had touch long ago via the UIQ Symbian UI, as well as S60 more recently. It is the world's favorite touch solution, its growing, not retreating, market share. While Android boasted a 10% market share after its first full 18 months, Nokia gained 5%, or half of Android's total share, just this Q4!
This is all without its biggest transformation, expected to make it more attractive to those that consider looks important, and more intuitive to neophytes, is still 7 months away. They are gaining momentum well before their true growth stimulators even begin to take off.
I expect growth to expand, both at the high and midrange.
You guage Nokia's success on the high end, when in reality, there are 4 or 5 distinct submarkets Nokia is specializing in. Focusing on each with custom solutions for enterprise, media, messaging, and value, they can more easily target consumer groups. Each of these has its own high end, and Nokia will specialize and attempt to be a leader in each of these segments at various price points.
The high end was stymied by lower hardware R&D spending and an older manufacturing process, but Nokia's manufacturing agility and size give it the ability to make quick changes on those levels.
You can throw a life raft all you wish, but Nokia is backstroking calmly at the moment, and will be upping the ante in 7 months. Be sure to read all the naysayer comments, but withold the snickers. It won't be polite.
@Slick...
Your reply #65 is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start - nor do I have the time or inclination. Let's just say either you misunderstand me or I think you're just plain wrong. :-)
np, I can read between the lines :D
But this post reminds me of the the time I said Nokia is gonna end upmaking win mobile phones, and a nokia fan attacked me. The point of my post was Nokia wasn't gonna make it without a partnership. Low and behold the intel announcement, so yeah I picked the wrong company but I saw the writing on the wall.
This situation is no different you fail to comprehend what this discussion is really about that's why you have nothing to say.
@christexaport
You went a bit overboard with your reply
.
They sell more smartphones, touchscreen devices, and cellphones than anyonePERIOD! No other company has EVER held a larger piece of the market BUT Nokia. The world's IT tech leader and biggest enterprise solutions company, Microsoft, tried a restructuring similar to Nokia, only their smartphone market share collapsed. They made a clean code break with WP7, and with IT departments having to decide if a fresh start is prudent, it has no guarantee to rise back to its previous dominant level from the WinMo days. To keep its software suite accessible to customers, they chose Nokia's enterprise Eseries devices. Getting such an endorsement from a competitor is flattering, especially when RIM is also entrenched in the same market, probably more.
Calm down now
.
YOU claim Symbian failed to adapt properly to touch. Symbian had touch long ago via the UIQ Symbian UI, as well as S60 more recently. It is the world's favorite touch solution, its growing, not retreating, market share. While Android boasted a 10% market share after its first full 18 months, Nokia gained 5%, or half of Android's total share, just this Q4!
I didn't claim anything. I just told you to explain.
The nokia implementation of the touchscreen is not the best out. The only reason nokia has such a large marketshare is because of its active presence in the developing markets. You really think if Jobs gave a schit about those markets, the stats would be the same?
It's not the world's favorite option if it's the only one they know or if they haven't got the chance to use better.
This is all without its biggest transformation, expected to make it more attractive to those that consider looks important, and more intuitive to neophytes, is still 7 months away. They are gaining momentum well before their true growth stimulators even begin to take off.
I expect growth to expand, both at the high and midrange.
You guage Nokia's success on the high end, when in reality, there are 4 or 5 distinct submarkets Nokia is specializing in. Focusing on each with custom solutions for enterprise, media, messaging, and value, they can more easily target consumer groups. Each of these has its own high end, and Nokia will specialize and attempt to be a leader in each of these segments at various price points. .
No, I don't
The high end was stymied by lower hardware R&D spending and an older manufacturing process, but Nokia's manufacturing agility and size give it the ability to make quick changes on those levels.
You can throw a life raft all you wish, but Nokia is backstroking calmly at the moment, and will be upping the ante in 7 months. Be sure to read all the naysayer comments, but withold the snickers. It won't be polite.
I think you reading too much into what I said now
Christexaport is rather excitable at times - don't confuse his passion for anger - but I think he was rather calm in his prior post.
Christexaport is rather excitable at times - don't confuse his passion for anger - but I think he was rather calm in his prior post.
i just asked him to explain what he meant with the touchscreen issue not to explain nokia's dominance and the failure of others
While I find the article referenced not informative at all (i.e. lacking any kind of analysis), I couldn't leave it alone without adding my analysis.
Difference in R&D cost as a percentage of revenue is explained by the following factors (not all inclusive):
1. R&D cost dropped in 2009 from 2008 - 5968 to 5909 million Euros
2. In 2009 USD dropped vs. Euro. R&D cost spent in Euros automatically increased converted to USD
3. Cost vs. Revenue ratio is misleading. As revenue drops, the ratio increases. Should a company decrease its R&D cost as it's dealing with transformation? Should it look for savings in other areas (i.e. administrative, operational expenses)?
4. R&D for network division (briefly mentioned in the article)
5. R&D for custom chipset in Series 40 phones. Nokia is transitioning off to commercial chipsets from third party manufacturers which should decrease the costs starting this year. (Source: Nokia Software Strategy White Paper)
5. R&D cost for tens of current different models of phone vs. one current from Apple. Even when there are minor differences between some Nokia models (N97 and N97 mini), Dev and QA cost are still there.
6. Support of tens more models via firmware updates vs. Apple's two model.
7. R&D for MeGoo, Symbian Series 60 and 40. Going to open source model should decrease the costs.
8. Software support for subversions of Series 60. Making Nokia software work on FP2 and FP3 phones.
9. R&D cost for NAVTEQ maps (http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/item/11297_Video_Navteq_True_demo_at_MWC_.php) and routing engine (former Gate5). No similar solution made by Apple
10. R&D cost for BetaLabs' many futuristic projects good portion of them don’t end in a marketable product. My guess the quantity and scope of long-range research is larger than Apple's. When Steve Jobs took over Apple he cut R&D budget in almost half, killing many projects that were close to being done or already on the market but were not in line with his strategy to pull Apple out of the financial ruin.
11. R&D for software geared to developing market LifeTools, Money, etc. None at Apple.
12. R&D for market research done by Nokia is legendary. Apple doesn't do market research. Strange but true. Apple tries to anticipate market's needs by providing solutions even before people even know they need them. Therefore, the market research has limited use.
13. While OVI store arguably lacks to polish and features of Apple's, it makes up for it by localization. This cost much money.
Nokia competes in all tiers of mobile phone market (pricewise). It also competes against device manufacturers and infrastructure service providers. When Nokia tries to change many things at once, R&D costs go up. In 2007 when Nokia began its transformation, R&D cost was 5647 million Euro vs. 3897 million Euro in 2006. The question one might ask, what did Nokia get for this investment? But that's for another post.
The point of this post is the article lacks any kind of analysis, and the “financial reporter” is comparing apples and oranges (no pun intended) when it comes to R&D costs
Ross
Here is another interesting story along the same ilk.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=abHHC23vEyQw&pos=11
I personally don't see Maemo becoming Nokia's go-to guy for saving the company. Linux isn't going to save Nokia; quality, mainstream products will.
Laughing Man
2010-05-13, 00:12
I personally don't see Maemo becoming Nokia's go-to guy for saving the company. Linux isn't going to save Nokia; quality, mainstream products will.
You mean Meego now. But I don't think so either. If anything it might be the death of Nokia if anyone who picks up Meego (say for a wild example, HTC) will put out a better Meego product.
Now QT compatibility on the other hand might. As most developers are on the iPhone and increasingly joining Android. Nokia needs a platform with a userbase that can draw developers for their Symbian3 platform. QT compatibility across Meego and Symbian3 devices would provide that userbase.
no news on firmware fixes ? (that are desperately needed by most)
and throwing more money at symbian?
You know that there are firmware fixes coming, that should be enough.
I don't know when people suddenly started expecting companies to hold their hand on every step of the development process. I know that the N900 is running a linux OS so it technically should be more ''open'' when it comes to company-customer relations, but people have been downright spoiled by Nokia. Think about it, which other company is as connected as Nokia is?
Apple? Hell no.
HTC does a good job at making high end phones but they don't communicate with their community at all. They only announce that firmware updates are in development as well, they don't give a date untill it is released (since carriers have to distribute it in some cases)
Google? They didn't even have a forum at release and their updates have barely fixed the issues the N1 has.
Samsung is notorious for releasing a new phone instead of updating it's old ones.
I could go on, Motorola had a good idea with the droid but followed it up with some big flops, Palm couldn't make a commercial worth a damn (although their CEO is very sociable)
Simply put, Nokia does a damn fine job and is at worst on par with other companies, at best the most friendly one there is!
As for symbian.. it dominates the mid range market, in my opinion S^3 is good enough to compete in the high end range (I don't care so much about UI, plus by making it one tap only it's pretty much a winner for me), but of course the US doesn't agree. Nokia is slowing down it's high end production and trying to make one good device instead of several flops (N96, N97,..) but untill then, they have a ton of cheap handsets that are going to keep it afloat for a very long time.
My thoughts: http://tabulacrypticum.wordpress.com/2010/05/11/will-2011-be-make-or-break-for-nokia/
You mean Meego now. But I don't think so either. If anything it might be the death of Nokia if anyone who picks up Meego (say for a wild example, HTC) will put out a better Meego product.
Well Nokia whole future hangs on Qt and that's just not the high end so i'm sure Nokia will welcome all who want to join in. Nokia will anyways use Harmattan so that's a big thing there compared to other manufacturers. Plus Nokia builds all the services behind Qt(S^3, S^4 and MeeGo) that will not happen with others.
One reason why Nokia dominated the Symbian area while Samsung already had best hw with innov8, but never sold anything like Nokias Symbian phones.
Crashdamage
2010-05-13, 22:20
Like I said earlier in this thread..."MeeGo will not save Nokia. But MeeGo + Symbian + Qt will save Nokia. MeeGo will save Nokia's reputation." (in the high end). That and fixing the mess that is Ovi.
All of the issues that everyone is talking about has to do with management of the brand. Just admit it. They have made more than a few mistakes. What other company releases multiple phones then admits to mismanagement of their latest high end phones? Nokia is, and will always be, a victim of their success and I think the discontent expressed is due to their previous successes. They made RELIABLE good phones when they weren't readily available in the various configurations that made Nokia look like an innovative company. They are losing that mindshare and I think that is why everyone is so vocal. It seems as if they are losing it.
But why shouldn't people be mad? The HTC EVO 4g is coming out and people are wondering where is the Nokia that made a phone that couldn't be matched, spec wise, for years by competitors. I wont even go into the reliability these phones had. You could drop them in hot sauce, dry it in the microwave, and listen to it in the shower. That is what I'm looking for
Laughing Man
2010-05-14, 01:45
But why shouldn't people be mad? The HTC EVO 4g is coming out and people are wondering where is the Nokia that made a phone that couldn't be matched, spec wise, for years by competitors. I wont even go into the reliability these phones had. You could drop them in hot sauce, dry it in the microwave, and listen to it in the shower. That is what I'm looking for
Err.. I imagine the HTC EVO 4G will be out-dated within months after its launch. That's just the progress at which smartphones (especially Android) are coming out at.
As far as I'm concerned, it's not as much the hardware that's the problem, it's the operating system and the software on it. The N900 is great for my needs now. But in 3-4 years, I won't need the abilities of a mobile computer I(with the ability to run things like openoffice) and I will be looking for a platform that offers things like Android is beginning to offer. Whether Meego will be a considerable alternative at that point, who knows.
I'm willing to put money on this. When the EVO 4G comes out, Android 2.2 will be out. And the EVO 4G won't get it.
Quote me
bxbomber
2010-05-16, 14:29
I'm willing to put money on this. When the EVO 4G comes out, Android 2.2 will be out. And the EVO 4G won't get it.
Quote me
I can guarantee you that one way or another the evo will get android 2.2
If it's not official from htc, then it'll be from xda.
I'll go as far to say the xda build will be better than the htc version.
So much for Nokia relying on Symbian. Meego is going to be their "go to" OS for higher end phones.
Nokia retires Symbian for N series phones.
http://www.linuxpromagazine.com/Online/News/Nokia-Quietly-Retires-Symbian-from-N-series-Smartphones
Laughing Man
2010-06-25, 16:39
Symbian was already going be demoted to mid-level or low-level smartphones since Meego was formulated. With Meego taking care of high end mobile computers (or the way it's starting to look now, high-end smartphones).
From 2009
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb95/tissotti/platform.jpg
Symbian will be the volume OS eating part of the most used mobile OS, S40 market share(or that's the idea). Good thing being that MeeGo and Symbian being linked partly to each other by qt both are under the same OVI services umbrella.
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