Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android? [Archive] - maemo.org

danramos

2010-07-08, 19:15

Personally, I rather like Android. I don't have as many qualms about it as most of you seem to have--especially since I eventually realized how similarly Maemo and Android were in terms of the same closed drivers/software built AROUND all the open source that prevented the community from bugfixing and customization.

BUT--that said, I would rather see MORE competition than less. Just as a diversity of Linux based distributions eventually led to better and better Linux operating systems and GNU tools, just as Linux operating systems competed with other open-source operating systems, just as operating systems in general had to compete to produce better and better operating systems than in the past, we now need something like a diversity in the embedded operating system market for things like handset phones, tablets and other mobile and appliance devices to promote the evolution of these devices to fit our needs best.

I just hope Nokia's hardware division wakes up and competes. Also, their customer service and support divisions as well.

pantera1989

2010-07-08, 19:16

I must say this is the worst topic I have ever seen. Nokia practically started Meego..

It's like asking if Apple should use Android instead of iOS..

Shady 91'

2010-07-08, 19:22

IMHO, Nokia in the next 2 years will produced at lesat one Android phone. Probably to see the interest of the public ragard this OS.

All it is possible in my opinion. And AFAIK, there is a plan for MeeGo to became a platform in order to run Android apps and WP7.

But i don't remember the font.

Laughing Man

2010-07-08, 19:22

Nope. There's a reason why (some) people choose this platform despite Android existing. Granted Android has improved alot since then, but there are still some issues that need to be worked out.

acvetkov

2010-07-08, 19:25

No, no one cares for the "property" libc of google. Android is not Linux. Maemo is Linux. That said I think there is nothing else to discuss.

danramos

2010-07-08, 19:30

No, no one cares for the "property" libc of google. Android is not Linux. Maemo is Linux. That said I think there is nothing else to discuss.

Maemo is not Linux. LINUX is Linux. Maemo is a distribution. Android is a distribution. They BOTH took the Linux kernel, added stuff on top and around it.. BOTH of them threw in closed-source drivers.. BOTH of them threw in closed-source applications that you can't even fully remove without ending up with a broken operating system.

vode

2010-07-08, 19:30

If they did I'd never use a Nokia device again

tswindell

2010-07-08, 19:30

Shady 91' you don't know your *** from your elbow.

Regardless, Nokia will go down in flames before they introduce an Android handset. Nokia pride themselves on innovation and progress, being tired to a single operating system forces them to keep inline with whatever google supports, both software (in API's and such) and hardware in capabilities. It would be an extremely dumb move to but yourself into that corner. Other manufacturers, HTC et al, can do this, because they're extremely small, bring out generic phones. If you want to be a game changer, you need to hold the reigns, or at least have a foundation for a lot of flexibility, something that Android does not, and probably never will offer.

That, and in my opinion, Android is flawed by design. (I don't like the idea of an entire OS running in a Java VM) ...

ironm8

2010-07-08, 19:31

thats a valid arguement and i think that Nokia *should* have used android!

You all know maemo is not the most end-user-friendly OS out there and also, Symbian has become a reason for mockery.
So if i was in Nokia's shoes i would release a few android phones to fill the void between the failed N97(that pratically proved symbian concept as a failure) and the first MeeGo phone, whenever it may be(possibly oct-nov).
Thats a LONG time in terms of technology, a full year? between mass market flagship products? even if you take the N8 thats too long!

With that in mind, nokia keep releasing low-end product for the less-advanced communities around the globe thats what possibly keeping their income at the moment but they should have taken a look at HTC strategy of never being behind. new GPU? lets make another phone, faster CPU? lets make another! HTC has practically a phone for everyone, nokia doesnt!

As a company with great assets they should have taken advantage of Android in that way of NOT being left behind.they could, with little effort, release an android phone with custom UI by using the many available hardware configuration around or their own, trust me they have plenty.

Most people dont have the same awareness and concept about nokia anymore, they dont think about it as a high-end company.
Android could have been a tool in achiving just that. Now they have all their eggs on MeeGo basket and we just will have to wait and see :cool:

acvetkov

2010-07-08, 19:36

Maemo is not Linux. LINUX is Linux. Maemo is a distribution. Android is a distribution. They BOTH took the Linux kernel, added stuff on top and around it.. BOTH of them threw in closed-source drivers.. BOTH of them threw in closed-source applications that you can't even fully remove without ending up with a broken operating system.

Ok, I need to clarify.
Linux - open source, access, freedom.

Maemo - everyting open except Battery module and Video driver (if am missing something please point it) Thats really vendor issue not Maemo
MeeGo - everything is going to be open (at least this is what they say)

Maemo/Meego you can take random source and complie

Android - re-written libc (the source is still not at kernel.org as far as I know) Provider locking, no full access JAVA DALVIK UI. You have to root Android to access it and you still can`t use random linux application due to the re-written libc. Android is the most closed "open source" OS out here. You are restricted like in iOS.

Please don`t compare Maemo/Meego to Android they are completly different.

danramos

2010-07-08, 19:49

Ok, I need to clarify.
Linux - open source, access, freedom.

Maemo - everyting open except Battery module and Video driver (if am missing something please point it) Thats really vendor issue not Maemo
MeeGo - everything is going to be open (at least this is what they say)

Maemo/Meego you can take random source and complie

Android - re-written libc (the source is still not at kernel.org as far as I know) Provider locking, no full access JAVA DALVIK UI. You have to root Android to access it and you still can`t use random linux application due to the re-written libc. Android is the most closed "open source" OS out here. You are restricted like in iOS.

Please don`t compare Maemo/Meego to Android they are completly different.

In Maemo, you forget all the Nokia applications that were included.. like in the older OS, MANY applications are STILL closed-source. For example, the media player is still closed (and TIGHTLY tied to all the other apps). The file manager too. And so on and so on. This has continued on into the Fremantle version with all these complaints about the same apps as well as some newer ones like the closed-source calendar and mapping app and on and on. These are ALWAYS going to be flashed onto your device with the image and MANY of these applications cannot be removed. The ones that CAN be often damage the operating system when you do.

If MeeGo is going to be so damned open, why are there so many complaints about dependencies on closed drivers and applications in firmware images all over again?

Android can easily be compared to Maemo for the same walled garden--especially with Ovi thrown in and these dependencies I just pointed out. Sure--they rewrote libc for their java-based environment, but Maemo re-broke xorgso that you can't even use a damned mouse without hacking it up and "rooting" and re-broke Bluez so that you can't use a keyboard without the same tactic. Worse, if you find some deep problems with their apps or drivers, you can't fix it or depend on someone to fix it for you outside of Nokia and you end up facing the possibility of a "fixed in [next Maemo]" debacle... which is even worse now that there won't be a next Maemo.

Sorry--but yeah, Maemo and Android aren't THAT much different. They're both BASED on Linux.. but they BOTH mangled up the source-code with binary blobs.

romanianusa

2010-07-08, 19:51

What the heck is Meego anyway....

Meego..noGO...weGO iGO...youGO.

wmarone

2010-07-08, 19:57

If MeeGo is going to be so damned open, why are there so many complaints about dependencies on closed drivers and applications in firmware images all over again?
There are no closed applications in MeeGo.

Anything that is closed is device and vendor specific, which the vendor may be unwiling or legally unable to release. I suspect that is the case for Nokia's BME (legal eagles saving the company,) and is definitely the case for the PowerVR drivers.

acvetkov

2010-07-08, 20:01

Android can easily be compared to Maemo for the same walled garden--especially with Ovi thrown in and these dependencies I just pointed out. Sure--they rewrote libc for their java-based environment, but Maemo re-broke xorgso that you can't even use a damned mouse without hacking it up and "rooting" and re-broke Bluez so that you can't use a keyboard without the same tactic. Worse, if you find some deep problems with their apps or drivers, you can't fix it or depend on someone to fix it for you outside of Nokia and you end up facing the possibility of a "fixed in [next Maemo]" debacle... which is even worse now that there won't be a next Maemo.
.

Now read carefull what you write. BlueZ and xorgso modifications from a telephone vendor? Aww thats bad. They use their software for the basic functions? Hm thats strange too... can`t believe they didn`t let us see their property application source code.

Compare that to re-written libc and java UI... locks to provider, need to root to gain full access (kinda of) and no native linux applications...

Sorry I don`t see any valid comparison here. But I see you point which is not accurate - you think when someone is selling device with linux it should be fully open. Nokia cares about money. Maemo/MeeGo cares about openess. N900 is between them openess with property software from Nokia. So this is no way near Android closed and unfriendly for hacking envoriement.

rainmaster

2010-07-08, 20:03

well,.......... I guess they could use android....in the lower end?:rolleyes:

Laughing Man

2010-07-08, 20:04

Remember, when talking about Linux and openness you have to keep three things in mind.

Connotation, Denotation, and degree.

Rauha

2010-07-08, 20:24

e: and did you notice the perspective?
O = ameeriikaa
. = rest of the world
Things aren't going really peachy for Nokia in rest of the world either. Even in Europe, during the last 12 months smartphonephone marketshare 50%->40%, mobilephones 40%->32%. Or my personal experience of seeing the explosion of Samsung and Apple phones on random people in Espoo...

But as far as the topic goes, I don't think that Nokia should, nor do I think that they will start making Android phones. Quite frankly my dears, I don't give a damn about what logo is on my phone, as long as it's a good phone. So, no Nokia Android phones please. If it loses this platform war, I would much rather see Nokia continuing it's incredible and unique history of re-inventing itself than becoming a logo printed on top of ARM+Android products.

Nokia started it's existence during the mid-19th century industrial explosion, since then it has allways shed off old-tech that has become commodized, and gone after the next new thing. Last such big transition was done in early 90's when Nokia stopped making TVs and computers and moved into telecom and IT. This was possible thanks to it's astronomical R&D expenditure, which short terms investors like to ***** about, but it allows the kind of 'deep research' built into Nokia's corporate ethos. Just to give few examples from last weeks: nanotech (http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=20100163844.PGNR.&OS=DN/20100163844RS=DN/20100163844), earthquake detection (http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=20100169021.PGNR.&OS=DN/20100169021RS=DN/20100169021) and atmospheric modelling (http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7,751,949.PN.&OS=PN/7,751,949&RS=PN/7,751,949). It took almost twenty years before investments started in late 60s on mobile-tech produced quaterly profit and over 20 years before those investments payed off, but it was those investments made possible that last big transtion. That's the Nokia DNA I care about, instead of a logo on a phone, toilet paper, computer, rubber boots or industrial cable.

Sorry about going on a rantish long history perspective.

danramos

2010-07-08, 20:31

Now read carefull what you write. BlueZ and xorgso modifications from a telephone vendor? Aww thats bad. They use their software for the basic functions? Hm thats strange too... can`t believe they didn`t let us see their property application source code.

Compare that to re-written libc and java UI... locks to provider, need to root to gain full access (kinda of) and no native linux applications...

Sorry I don`t see any valid comparison here. But I see you point which is not accurate - you think when someone is selling device with linux it should be fully open. Nokia cares about money. Maemo/MeeGo cares about openess. N900 is between them openess with property software from Nokia. So this is no way near Android closed and unfriendly for hacking envoriement.

Sorry, I simply don't agree that putting up closed walls around open-source makes it "more open." You still suffer from depending on the flash image given to you by the vendor and you can't install the OS you wanted. If you decide you want to install a fully opened OS and didn't want the vendor's garbage (spyware like Nokia's SMS message debacle, for example) you can't choose NOT to get it if THAT firmware image (one with those closed drivers and apps) are the only ones that will flash and then run properly. Had we ONLY been talking about loading closed applications inside of an open OS, it'd be a different thing than the lock-in to drivers and apps you have no say in.

Maemo and Android are both Linux based operating systems that corrupted the whole intent and benefit of open-source and the GPL. Seems very similar to me.

I still hope that MeeGo changes this--but with Nokia's history so far, I'm feeling pessimistic.

Venemo

2010-07-08, 20:32

The question circulating around is: should Nokia drop the MeeGo and throw in Android (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/cell-phones/should-nokia-drop-meego-and-put-google-android-on-their-hardware/4194)?

If they switched to Android, I wouldn't ever buy from them again. This is a personal preference, but it is my least favourite operating system.
I hate Google's crap. They should have stayed in the search engine business.

If Nokia switched to Android, Windows Phone would remain the only sensible opportunity. :(

ossipena

2010-07-08, 20:34

Things aren't going really peachy for Nokia in rest of the world either. Even in Europe, during the last 12 months smartphonephone marketshare 50%->40%, mobilephones 40%->32%. Or my personal experience of seeing the explosion of Samsung and Apple phones on random people in Espoo...

yes I know that. the only thing that pisses me off with that usa-centricity is that it is the development country of gsm/3g networks.

a bit like starving ethiopian would give you advice how to drift with hummer....

danramos

2010-07-08, 20:37

If they switched to Android, I wouldn't ever buy from them again. This is a personal preference, but it is my least favourite operating system.
I hate Google's crap. They should have stayed in the search engine business.

If Nokia switched to Android, Windows Phone would remain the only sensible opportunity. :(

If Nokia switched to Android, I too would never buy from them either. Mostly because Android is already being implemented better by other companies who have proven themselves to provide far better care for their customers than Nokia has and provide ample physical presence in many of their markets.

I'm just saying that I don't think Nokia's problem is so much their operating system(s).

geneven

2010-07-08, 20:37

It's really fabulous that you will be able to happily run Android on your N900 with Nitdroid and Nokia should do what it can to keep that flexibility in its super-phones.

Venemo

2010-07-08, 20:42

android to non-touch devices. do I have to say more about that blog?

e: and did you notice the perspective?
O = ameeriikaa
. = rest of the world

Completely agreed.

I'm just saying that I don't think Nokia's problem is so much their operating system(s).

Yes it is.
They make very nice hardware.

danramos

2010-07-08, 20:46

Yes it is.
They make very nice hardware.

Their software could be far better, but it's not the core problem. Their hardware is just okay. Their problem is also not the hardware. The problem is their business.

leetut

2010-07-08, 21:15

theres no way the 'mighty' nokia corporation ane gonna use any other OS when they can develop their own, meego will spank everyone else, even tho im not very impressed with the 'phone' pics of meego ive seen so far, the netbook OS looked awesome, theyll deliver what people want, they just need to make sure it aint half baked like s60v5 and maemo5 were when released, or there screwed, surely they must have learned that over the past year with all the excitement of the n97 and then the total disaster of it crashing all the time, and still the n900 is missing a lot of standard features and is still buggy as hell, but its still the best device i can see on the market, because they gave me what i wanted, a phone i can personalise/mod

wmarone

2010-07-08, 22:00

The problem is their business.

Very much this. I suspect that people in the Internet Tablet group, and the people who pushed MeeGo, are very well as frustrated with the Greater Nokia as we are. But there's not much they can do without driving the point to the bottom line, where the higher ups will see it.

To some degree, I think they have, but the battle is all uphill and this is only one step. After that it's up to people outside the administrative structure that can shake things up to do so.

That said, with MeeGo less attached to Nokia others might pick it up and run with it. Hopefully the "not owned by a company with a vested interest in where it goes" will lead to some inertia.

danramos

2010-07-08, 22:14

That said, with MeeGo less attached to Nokia others might pick it up and run with it. Hopefully the "not owned by a company with a vested interest in where it goes" will lead to some inertia.

I hope with all my heart and soul that you're right and it gets enough openness and adoption to free itself from the same rotting carcasses running the show at Nokia that the maemo community has been anchored to for lack of openness and adoption.

Patola

2010-07-08, 23:01

danramos

2010-07-08, 23:05

Why there are so many doomsayers about Nokia? Ok, Android might be fine and such, but there are people like me that prefer Maemo/Meego and we believe it might have even nore to offer in the future. We like GNU/Linux and we do lots more with it that we'd do with Android. If you prefer Android, fine, buy an Android mobile. But suggesting that Nokia should lose all its remaining credibility by adopting a competitor's OS is beyond all insanity.

What you want to believe is hardly my concern nor is it necessarily a reflection of reality. Most importantly, why do you feel that other people shouldn't have opinions or express what they believe/feel/observe/think/etc?

Laughing Man

2010-07-08, 23:09

If Nokia switched to Android, I too would never buy from them either. Mostly because Android is already being implemented better by other companies who have proven themselves to provide far better care for their customers than Nokia has and provide ample physical presence in many of their markets.

I'm just saying that I don't think Nokia's problem is so much their operating system(s).

Exactly. About the only thing special about Nokia hardware is they actually consider hard keyboards. And even HTC is now getting a clue that no all users want touchscreens only.

bayernhan

2010-07-08, 23:22

i beleive meego phones using intel atom processors will allow us to compile x86 envitonment apllications to meego so no

Actually this is their last chance for me,if meego is a success nokia is back if not byer bye

pantera1989

2010-07-08, 23:25

Exactly. About the only thing special about Nokia hardware is they actually consider hard keyboards. And even HTC is now getting a clue that no all users want touchscreens only.

You give the N900 too little credit..it has 32GB of storage + support for a 32GB microsd. That's 64GB. Name one alternative that does that.

It has a resistive touchscreen with pressure sensitivity, and quite sensitive too. I have no problem using it with the finger, and I can draw well using myPaint, something I can't do with a capacitive touchscreen,,(and something I will miss since no one hardly uses resistive anymore).

It has an IR port..which opens the possibility of a remote control. Most other phones don't have this. It is capable of a 10MBps connection with HSDP and it has an FM Transmitter.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying that HTC phones are bad..they're very good and an excellent alternative.

But saying that the N900's hardware is inferior is very unfair in my opinion.

CPU is not bad. It's not a Snapdragon, but a Cortex A8 is still one of the best, and almost as capable as the Snapdragon, and in media it is superior. And 256MB RAM + 768MB Swap is enopugh in my opinion. I have never run out of memory..and believe me I don't just use my N900 to check my emails.

Laughing Man

2010-07-08, 23:35

Your right pantera1989. There are things about the N900 I forgot to mention. But who would want to buy (nice) Nokia hardware given their typical support?

danramos

2010-07-08, 23:46

You give the N900 too little credit..it has 32GB of storage + support for a 32GB microsd. That's 64GB. Name one alternative that does that.

The old N800 could do that.. PLUS both were removable cards. It seems like the Pandora can do that too. (two 32GB SDHC, I mean) Additionally, ANYTHING that accepts SDHC could conceivably support a single 16GB or 32GB SDHC (my Droid has a single 16GB SDHC) and it's plenty of space. I doubt anyone will care that the N900 has 32GB built in PLUS takes an SDHC if the battery keeps getting drained so quickly or there's so many bugs that nobody can fix or any number of these other more important details.

It has a resistive touchscreen with pressure sensitivity, and quite sensitive too. I have no problem using it with the finger, and I can draw well using myPaint, something I can't do with a capacitive touchscreen,,(and something I will miss since no one hardly uses resistive anymore).

I'll give you that, I guess.. but this is a matter of personal preference. I rather prefer the resistive touchscreens--but there are a lot of fans of capacitive touchscreens. I could live with either, really.

It has an IR port..which opens the possibility of a remote control. Most other phones don't have this. It is capable of a 10MBps connection with HSDP and it has an FM Transmitter.

It's 2010. Hell, I use my Motorola Droid to operate my VLC player via touchscreen like a remote control over my home wifi. I've seen apps on it to do the same for Tivo, Roku, MythTV and so on. IR is so 20th century.

HSDP is a promise, not a feature and the FM transmitter sounds wonky from the accounts I'm reading lately. The FM transmitter seems like a waste of circuitry, considering they should have concentrated on excellent Bluetooth HSP/A2DP. Speaking of 20th century. Heh... FM transmitter. :P

Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying that HTC phones are bad..they're very good and an excellent alternative.

But saying that the N900's hardware is inferior is very unfair in my opinion.

The N900's hardware isn't necessarily inferior, no. It's certainly not the amazingly advanced phone/computer/whatever that Nokia billed it to be, though. It's just.. nothing special. Even the only-partially-open OS is leaving it only "on par" with its competition, certainly not ahead of it. Let's truly hope MeeGo changes that someday.

CPU is not bad. It's not a Snapdragon, but a Cortex A8 is still one of the best, and almost as capable as the Snapdragon, and in media it is superior. And 256MB RAM + 768MB Swap is enopugh in my opinion. I have never run out of memory..and believe me I don't just use my N900 to check my emails.

You had me up until you said that it's superior in media. I'm not sure how you arrive at that. What did you mean? Maybe I missed something. Near as I can tell, these Android phones are EASILY handling much larger and more media than the N900's Cortex A8. Hell, some of these new phones are doing HDMI output and even my Motorola Droid can plug into an external USB 2GB hard drive (hell, my old N800 could do that too!) if I REALLY want a ton of space as an example of handling media. What did yo u mean?

Your right pantera1989. There are things about the N900 I forgot to mention. But who would want to buy (nice) Nokia hardware given their typical support?

Aaaaand then there's the deal-killer.

gerbick

2010-07-08, 23:47

danramos

2010-07-08, 23:52

And besides... Google is in it for the software. Nokia is in it for the hardware. Apparently opposite sides of the fence. And only one seems to be offering updates regularly. The other, dead end once the hardware is replaced by newer hardware/CPU, or whatever excuse is in style that day.

As usual, you're spot-on.

wmarone

2010-07-08, 23:54

Google is in it for the software.
Google is in it to secure their position in the mobile world, something other vendors would like to lock them out of. Android lets them steer the ship, while MeeGo doesn't quite.

Nokia is in it for the hardware.
On the contrary, I think Nokia is in it for the services. But there in lies the problem: I'm not sure what they're after. And I don't think they are either, which is bad when everyone else is nipping at your heels in terms of hardware.

If HTC released a device with root access available as easily as it is on the N900, only running MeeGo, I'd jump ship in a second. And -that's- what Nokia needs to get in high gear to prevent.

gerbick

2010-07-09, 00:13

Google is in it to secure their position in the mobile world, something other vendors would like to lock them out of. Android lets them steer the ship, while MeeGo doesn't quite.

And they're doing it via software. They sold the Google Nexus, considered it a "kickstart (http://www.slashgear.com/eric-schmidt-no-nexus-two-or-google-brand-chrome-os-netbook-0592764/)" to the Android platform, and are not returning with the Nexus Two.

That's indicative of a software based agenda than anything I've seen from Nokia.

On the contrary, I think Nokia is in it for the services. But there in lies the problem: I'm not sure what they're after. And I don't think they are either, which is bad when everyone else is nipping at your heels in terms of hardware.

What services? Ovi should have been ready last year. It's still not fully ready. They cannot even take alternative methods of payment. That's a sign of a not-so-well thought out platform. It's either credit card... or credit card. Even the LG app store offers more than that... and it's newer... but not available in the US, but 23+ other countries get a run at it.

You mean navigation? They were going to charge you until Google made it free on their platform... everybody followed suit. You mean e-mail? If you mean Modest, it's horrible... and if you mean Ovi, it's often down for folks. If you mean communication? RTComm has quirks like no other.

And if you say "it's step 4 out of 5"... then you're (somewhat) admitting that the software isn't quite finished/ready for mainstream and it's all a ARM A8 CPU that's bringing the bang to the table. And thus... hardware. Look at the N8. HDMI, better screen, faster ARM cpu... weighed down by Symbian^3 - which has been opened up and given away. Software isn't important to Nokia, not as important as slow updates, start/stops and lack of range offerings that are extremely limited.

There are no real offerings from Nokia that are enterprice-class in terms of software offerings for the end-user outside of the OS itself. The other software offerings compared to Google are sub-par, if that in most cases.

To me, Nokia has always been about the newest hardware - slide that go two ways, faster processors, microphones that offer better clarity... their OS's... not so refined.

And that's not a bad thing. Just a difference in how they approach the handset business.

pantera1989

2010-07-09, 00:18

You had me up until you said that it's superior in media. I'm not sure how you arrive at that. What did you mean? Maybe I missed something. Near as I can tell, these Android phones are EASILY handling much larger and more media than the N900's Cortex A8. Hell, some of these new phones are doing HDMI output and even my Motorola Droid can plug into an external USB 2GB hard drive (hell, my old N800 could do that too!) if I REALLY want a ton of space as an example of handling media. What did yo u mean?

I meant as a SoC not CPU alone. The one implemented in the iPhone 3GS and N900 was better (slightly) than the Nexus One in something. It was either graphic or media rendering. I'm not quite sure..but that's not the point. It's still clear that the N900;s hardware is not bad.

About the IR thing..it's 2010. Does your TV work with Wi-Fi? IR is still used. Although I never use it..it's there and worth mentioning.

This is not a patriotic post gerbick. Not at all. But saying that the N900's hardware is bad is unfair. When it was released it was just as good as any HTC. That was my point.

It's more the software that is to blame IMO. Maemo is great. I love every second of it. But what's with the slow Application manager..File Manager..Media Player..Email..Calender.. practically anything Nokia added is slow.

That and only that would be my complaint. I don't really care for Flash 10.1. And I think Nokia should have been clear about their intentions with the N900. I would still have bought it..but at least I wouldn't feel cheated (the whole Meego thing).

I don't know how we ended up discussing hardware..when the topic is completely different. It's a stupid topic though. When have Nokia ever used any OS apart from their own?

What services? Ovi should have been ready last year. It's still not fully ready.

If Nokia is good at one thing..it's pushing back deadlines :)

Employee -Oh no..we haven't finished yet!
Boss -Don't worry. We'll delay the release date.
E- Umm..we still have not finished developing.
B- Umm..ok. I guess we can push the release date one more time.

E- We haven't finished polishing up and removing all the bugs.
B- Don't worry. Just release it. We'll fix them later with an update.

gerbick

2010-07-09, 00:27

@pantera1989 - don't worry about the patriotic portion of my post.

I hate it when folks bring deep-rooted and wholly unnecessarily existing feelings about one country versus another. I guess being born in one country, raised in another and lived in 4 others... I'm just happy at the moment to have enough room for a garden, the ability to openly talk about the stuff I love - gadgets - and have surrounded myself by folks that know typically more than I do.

Patriotism is a wasted emotion in my books.

Laughing Man

2010-07-09, 00:32

It's 2010. Hell, I use my Motorola Droid to operate my VLC player via touchscreen like a remote control over my home wifi. I've seen apps on it to do the same for Tivo, Roku, MythTV and so on. IR is so 20th century.

HSDP is a promise, not a feature and the FM transmitter sounds wonky from the accounts I'm reading lately. The FM transmitter seems like a waste of circuitry, considering they should have concentrated on excellent Bluetooth HSP/A2DP. Speaking of 20th century. Heh... FM transmitter. :P

I think it depends on your use cases. For example, I use my IR and FM Transmitter quite often. And there are or places cars that don't have bluetooth or an AUX input. And I can't use any WiFi capable device to control my XBOX 360 when I don't want to turn on the controller. Likewise my TV for the one and blue moon I ever turn it on (I have a 360 hooked up to an LCD monitor).

The TV Out is definantly dependent on that too. While having some sort of HDMI output would be nice, it would only work on one TV in my house, and when I travel I may or may not be able to use it depending on the hotel I stay in. While most HDTVs do have composite as backwards compatibility for devices like the Wii that don't have it.

gerbick

2010-07-09, 00:34

They ever fix how you cannot use the FM transmitter while charging the phone?

Laughing Man

2010-07-09, 00:43

Nokia never did, but you can.. FM Transmitter widget, or QWERTY12's FM transmitter.so file that puts it permantely in the menu. It even auto FM boosts it for you if you have it installed.

ljmt01

2010-07-09, 00:47

ljmt01

2010-07-09, 00:50

Kangal

2010-07-09, 00:53

Can someone make an alternative blog to that one released, as if it was written by one of those tech-bloggers. I know MeeGo has many strengths and many weaknesses against Android, but that article didn't even mention them (the major one's). This should stop trolling some, even by those so-called gurus.

superg05

2010-07-09, 00:58

no but they should make both

Laughing Man

2010-07-09, 01:13

no but they should make both

I would love a dual booting device (I'm hoping the N900 will become one.. or a triple booting one).

Maemo/Meego for the computer like tasks (running OpenOffice, easy Debian, etc..).

Android for when I need a smartphone with GPS aware apps, etc..

theflew

2010-07-09, 02:08

To me, that's the way to go...

Because Nokia does not have enough good apps to keep Maemo/Meego, and Nokia does not know how to get developers interested. Plus, the touch screen is not so responsive --- reason: OS/software.

Android is the way to go.

The problem with Android is Nokia would became just another hardware vendor. Nokia like Apple wants to tie software, hardware and serives together - they cannot do that with Android. Google wants to do software and services only but there model is getting muddy with Android on Netbooks and large tablets where it wasn't meant to be.

MeeGo is a smart move. They fix Google's problem by having references for NetBook, tablets and phones. QT ties them all together and you get to expand on a base that's been maturing for years.

Benson

2010-07-09, 02:37

No, no one cares for the "property" libc of google. Android is not Linux. Maemo is Linux. That said I think there is nothing else to discuss.
I'm solidly against RMS's push to go about saying GNU-slash-Linux all the time -- especially when the actual portion of GNU in the system varies significantly, as in busybox-dominated Maemo.

But it's posts like yours that make me reconsider. At some level, words used too broadly suffer a dilution of meaning -- apparently to the point where people use it to replace a pre-existing word which fits their meaning precisely. Maybe I've been part of the problem (if so, I apologise) -- or maybe you'd just say "Android != GNU/Linux; Maemo = GNU/Linux" anyway, and spend more syllables being, if not quite equally wrong, equally missing the point.

BTW, the word you're looking for is UNIX (or if one wishes to kowtow before the trademark lords, "*n*x", "a unix-like system", or similar) -- and, once that substitution is made, I agree completely.

kryptoniankid17

2010-07-09, 02:39

android is not in the same league as meego. It still cant hold a candle to symbian.

gerbick

2010-07-09, 02:46

android is not in the same league as meego. It still cant hold a candle to symbian.

Care to qualify this statement?

superg05

2010-07-09, 02:58

The problem with Android is Nokia would became just another hardware vendor. Nokia like Apple wants to tie software, hardware and serives together - they cannot do that with Android. Google wants to do software and services only but there model is getting muddy with Android on Netbooks and large tablets where it wasn't meant to be.

MeeGo is a smart move. They fix Google's problem by having references for NetBook, tablets and phones. QT ties them all together and you get to expand on a base that's been maturing for years.

google releasing tablet versions that nvida say is the way to go so...... trust me google can match anything meego can do on a whim if they felt like it and yeah it is getting murky there make tv versions,car versions,tablets ect... just like meego?

YoDude

2010-07-09, 03:40

The way this topic is going... there's some rather xenophobic/extremely patriotic posts where it shouldn't even exist. There's no need. In fact, it's laughable. Some of y'all need to relax.

Regardless... should Nokia go Android? No.

Should Nokia drop MeeGo? No.

But they seriously did pick one of the worse names out there.

N900's hardware is only inferior to the newer offerings... which in turn will be relegated to an inferior status after even newer offerings. That's how gadgets go.

Too bad that Maemo is a dead-end and the only support people will get will be via a community that can't even agree on if something like a SMS being sent out via one of the closed bits and cannot be avoided (charges, et al) is a bad thing.

And besides... Google is in it for the software. Nokia is in it for the hardware. Apparently opposite sides of the fence. And only one seems to be offering updates regularly. The other, dead end once the hardware is replaced by newer hardware/CPU, or whatever excuse is in style that day.

It's the money that matters...Nokia used to sell fishing boots and Google only sold a dream to some in it's first 5 years...

Why does it have to be either or. I would be surprised if Nokia didn't have an Android phone in the wings. They sell mobile communication devices. If Android is offered it would fit very well in a mid tier category with MeeGo on the higher tiers and Symbian on the lower ones.

This is what Motorola has recently done. They didn't stop selling low tier s-19 OS phones, iDen PTT phones, or Linux based phones when they offered Android models... and their financials are looking pretty good all of a sudden.

It's all about customer demand and Android pleases many and it definitely has legs. The iPhone, not so much.

What Nokia has over Motorola and Samsung for that matter is the R & D invested in that higher tier OS. Maemo has been part of that investment. Nokia has learned a lot more than the other players as a result.

One thing is for sure though, all customers now expect more from their cell phones than POT calls. The higher tier will keep expanding and POT's at the bottom end will continue to drop off even in developing countries as network infrastructure builds out.

BTW, I also just need a small garden and good conversation. I liked that other post of yours. Very well put. :cool:

theflew

2010-07-09, 03:41

google releasing tablet versions that nvida say is the way to go so...... trust me google can match anything meego can do on a whim if they felt like it and yeah it is getting murky there make tv versions,car versions,tablets ect... just like meego?

Nvidia going to Android is little more than an anti-Intel move. How long have we heard about how Tegra2 was going to change the world? The question is will HTC and Motorola make MeeGo phones? Motorola might not because Intel is invovled, but HTC?

bzhbok

2010-07-09, 04:11

ossipena

2010-07-09, 04:14

They ever fix how you cannot use the FM transmitter while charging the phone?

as soon as new hardware revision appears.... (read:never)

ossipena

2010-07-09, 04:21

still wondering why about no-one noticed my comment about the authors idea to put android to non-touch device.

symbian was much better in non-touchscreen devices. but it couldn't compete with whole new input logic. I am 110% sure that E73's symbian beats android 10000 - 0 without hands if android is ported to the same device...

railroadmaster

2010-07-09, 05:10

In my opinion I really like Android. I would consider myself a fan of both Maemo/MeeGo and Android. I wouldn't necessarily consider operating closed while yes each has its own set limits neither platform by definition is a closed platform. What I like about Meego it that it is a full Linux distribution that can run Linux apps on a Mobile device. Just because Android isn't Linux doesn't mean it isn't open it just means that it isn't Linux you can run apps that aren't approved by Google under Android. The only thing (in my opinion) that makes Android closed is you have to hack a device to gain root user access something that is much easier to obtain under Maemo (I wouldn't know about MeeGo it hasn't been released yet). My real problem with Android is the issue of fragmentation some Android phones have some have Android 1.6, Android 2.0, and some have Android 2.1 and then there is the issue of custom skins whether it be Motoblur, HTC Sense, HTC Espresso ui, or Touchwiz. I would like for both oses to compete in a healthy way.

superg05

2010-07-09, 05:23

superg05

2010-07-09, 05:30

Nvidia going to Android is little more than an anti-Intel move. how??? just cause they like android 3.0 its an anti intel move intel likes android as well made a x86 port remember and nothing is stopping a manufacturer from using tegra 2 in a meego phone
How long have we heard about how Tegra2 was going to change the world?Blah blah blah someone has to buy and use the first so far was the zune hd a hit
The question is will HTC and Motorola make MeeGo phones?
duh if its profitable
Motorola might not because Intel is invovled, but HTC?
Hun? I'm curious about this one whats the back story

superg05

2010-07-09, 05:52

This idea is crazy : since ~ 2007-8 Nokia built an ambitious strategy to modernise their software portofolio :

- buy Symbian and open-source it
- buy Qt and completelly open source it
- buy and adapt a linux platform (Maemo then MeeGo)
- push Qt to both Symbian and Maemo/MeeGo
- code a new multitouch UI on top of Qt for MeeGo (and Symbian^4 ? )
- find a powerful ally (intel) (+ linux foundation)

Okay it is a long process... but now they are ~80% (90% ?) done you want them to put all that to trash for Android ? I have no idea how much it cost them, but I guess it is a lot...

Android is more established, but technology-wise I believe it is intrinsically inferior : the java API is good to attract devellopers but there will always be a price in term of performance compared to native apps like Qt (yes, I've heard of android NDK). Also Qt has no rival that can compete with it if if you evaluate the following domains : performance, quality, feature, cross-platform, price, openness.

In the short term MeeGo looks like an outsider, but in one year time they will be multiple handset, netbooks and tablets (Z600 !) running it.

yes and see where its gotten them
http://mynokiablog.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/chartday.jpg?w=500&h=287

If I was any of Nokia’s shareholders right now I would seriously be disgusted to see this.

I mean Nokia as valuable as RIM. Come on Nokia what are you doing ?!?!?!?!?

This chart shows Apple’s market cap at roughly $247 billion exactly the same market cap Nokia had in 2000 a full 10 years ago, oh how time flies. Shows how much Nokia has become complacent and possibilities of Nokia being overtaken as the world’s largest mobile phone maker is a certainty and I can’t help but thinking that no one at Nokia is serious enough to become great as it once was. It is important for big European companies to stay relevant in the world stage especially Nokia, we don’t want( well i don’t) a world where tech companies are only from America and far eastern Asia. It would be nice to see European tech companies doing well.
souce: http://mynokiablog.com/2010/06/22/gulp/

kureyon

2010-07-09, 06:14

Nokia like Apple wants to tie software, hardware and serives together
Except that even when Apple has set the example Nokia is still having trouble following/copying. Ovi store is one huge joke.

Google wants to do software and services only but there model is getting muddy with Android on Netbooks and large tablets where it wasn't meant to be.
Google just wants to sell ads, they don't care whether it's a phone or a netbook or a desktop.

MeeGo is a smart move.Nokia is drowning and they're thrashing about for something to cling onto. How long can they keep failing with venture after venture? Their initial ngage flopped, so they relaunch it and barely has the relaunch started they cancelled it. Ovi has been in pre-Alpha for how many years now? And it is still barely usable (or browseable even).

daperl

2010-07-09, 06:28

...like we need another hole in the head.

If there's a must-have Android app, just port it, but I'd rather not give up a computer OS for a smartphone OS. And if enough Android apps get ported, you can just call it:

MeeDroid

or maybe something more accurate like

Mandroid: The OS where men are men, and the electric sheep are nervous.

I'm counting on things such as Nokia's pride and arrogance to see a GNU/Linux mobile platform go as far as they and their friends are capable of taking it.

pycage

2010-07-09, 06:29

Android provides a platform for hardware manufacturers who are not in the software business.
The point why Google bought Android (the company) was because it showed potential to become a widespread phone OS and thus a way for Google (which is a advertising and data mining company, their products are mere tools to reach their goals) for getting a strong hold of the evolving market of mobile advertising.
Putting Android on a phone only helps Google in the end, and is only an option if you are in need of a ready-made competitive OS for selling phone hardware.
Nokia's intention is to become a more services-oriented company. Android wouldn't fit into that picture. Not at all.

hellhammer

2010-07-09, 07:22

what bzhbok said. cant all of us just wait until evrything is set up by nokia. we r comparing things that havent materialize yet. and btw, the reason a lot of ppl prefers android is the same as apple. its a much dumbed down OS for simple ppl. just admit it, the smartphone users of today are getting dumbed down. apple and android just happens to use the opportunity. maemo is certainly not for the fainthearted but then its capabilities generally surpasses that of android and iphone. and dont go on comparing the ip4 or htc's of now. compare with what we had back then when the n900 was launched.

attila77

2010-07-09, 07:40

Just because Android isn't Linux doesn't mean it isn't open it just means that it isn't Linux you can run apps that aren't approved by Google under Android. The only thing (in my opinion) that makes Android closed is you have to hack a device to gain root user access something that is much easier to obtain under Maemo (I wouldn't know about MeeGo it hasn't been released yet).

Wait a minute, you got the names wrong... s/Google/Apple/g, s/Android/iOS/g

Just because iOS isn't Linux doesn't mean it isn't open it just means that it isn't Linux you can run apps that aren't approved by Apple under iOS. The only thing (in my opinion) that makes iOS closed is you have to hack a device to gain root user access something that is much easier to obtain under Maemo (I wouldn't know about MeeGo it hasn't been released yet).

And yes, Nokia using Android makes as much sense as Apple using it. With S^4 and MeeGo they at least have a strategy that should bear fruits in 2011, with a choice of going Android NOW, they would put themself in stasis for AT LEAST another two years, and all that for what ? To be Yet Another Android Manufacturer ? Remember, this is not about the UI - they could port Qt to Android and transform MeeGo Touch into something like Blur or Sense. But where's the gain in that ? Seriously people, it's not like some manager walks into a room and says 'dudes, from tomorrow install Android on the phones', it's simply not that easy. Whatever they are doing NOW, the results of it are going to be seen, as said, in a year or two (and that's why all our speculations are pointless - what if it turns out Intel get's it's stuff right and Medfield is a killer ? That would be a home run for Nokia which would be squandered if they went Android)

mchu6am4

2010-07-09, 08:10

Definitely...otherwise the Nokia name will likely to disappear in the next 5-10 years or sooner!

kryptoniankid17

2010-07-09, 08:32

Care to qualify this statement?

it was more of an emotional statement. Meego is not simply a phone os and correct me if im wrong android seems to me to be just that. My brorthers drod doesnt seem to have more or less then symbian. Lets be honest android is not even in the double digits as far as users world wide.

ysss

2010-07-09, 08:45

cashclientel

2010-07-09, 09:00

Would be interesting to read some good analysis on what is the ideal number of operating systems for phones. Balancing choice and then also not having too many so that it makes life difficult for consumers and developers (see: desktop PCs in the 1990's)

PCs seemed to have settled on the major 'Windows', with second and third with OS X and Linux.

On phones we've got (in no particular order):
Symbian
iOS
Windows
Meego
Android

This is surely too many. Can all of these survive and is this best for consumers?

I think the smart phone OS world would do well to follow the desktop market. 'Follow' meaning more specifically "the market will decide". Have one primary OS that is all dominant, iOS, and serves its function for the majority of people (like Windows on desktops). Have a slightly niche and off the wall OS that is a good alternative in Android (like OS X on desktops). And then have Meego for the crazy Linux people who like getting their hands dirty.

WM 7 and Symbian can die. Symbian because it's miles out of date and Windows because its so late to the party it doesn't deserve entry.

ossipena

2010-07-09, 09:06

it can be done but nobody wants to at the least there making half/half you could disable touch but why

can android be used without a pointing device? (read: touchscreen)

ossipena

2010-07-09, 09:08

Definitely...otherwise the Nokia name will likely to disappear in the next 5-10 years or sooner!

what are the main points with what nokia can compete and win with other OEM manufacturers?

BatPenguin

2010-07-09, 09:15

android is not in the same league as meego. It still cant hold a candle to symbian.

This statement really only can be answered one way: LOL

jakiman

2010-07-09, 09:28

I'm definitely holding out for a new phone until next year when MeeGo devices start to really appear.

taril

2010-07-09, 09:29

They should move to, it hat a flawless, smooth and fast java user-interface! x-D

kryptoniankid17

2010-07-09, 09:32

I know the numbers of symbian based handsets sold out there is pretty obscene, but I wonder how many of those are really 'relevant'. Ie: how many are still in use? Of those, how many make use of email and web or install 3rd party apps at all?

i would say a hell of alot. as of this moment im looking at an e71, 5230, n97 mini, and n95. let me add in the usa each installed with 3rd psrty apps.

kryptoniankid17

2010-07-09, 09:33

This statement really only can be answered one way: LOL

it was an emotional fanboyishes response.

danramos

2010-07-09, 09:34

I meant as a SoC not CPU alone. The one implemented in the iPhone 3GS and N900 was better (slightly) than the Nexus One in something. It was either graphic or media rendering. I'm not quite sure..but that's not the point. It's still clear that the N900;s hardware is not bad.

Ah.. gotcha. Yeah, in that regard it's a LITTLE better than the N1 except that the 1GHz processor DOES clobber it with raw power. More importantly, though, there's a plethora of FAR better SoC solutions now. But I'll concede that, in its day, the N900 was in rare company for that feature. It's just too bad that Nokia can't seem to evolve their handsets and keep the OS on the previous generation hardware up-to-date and compatible with the next generation (a complaint that keeps getting brought up about Android 1.6 vs 2.0 vs 2.1 devices... except that Google has a range of handsets and manages to get a BUNCH upgraded whereas Nokia has... what the 770, N800 and N810 as previous generations? Pathetic.)

About the IR thing..it's 2010. Does your TV work with Wi-Fi? IR is still used. Although I never use it..it's there and worth mentioning.

Ironically, all of my "tv's" are 1080p monitors and they pay attention to DPMS, so if I DO turn off my VLC-running PC or tell it to go into DPMS off mode, or even if I just let it sit there for a few minutes without playing something---yes, it turns off automatically or via wifi. :P

But that's irrelevant--Laughing Man made the point much better than you did. Much appreciation to him for a convincing response about hotels and Wii and so on.

can android be used without a pointing device? (read: touchscreen)

Actually, yes. At the Google Experience desktop (or even on the HTC Sense desktop), you can either use the touchscreen, or the d-pad, the mouse (optical or ball), or the slide-out keyboard's shortcuts, or (as I do) a bluetooth keyboard, etc.. Have you ever actually used an Android device?

Nokia never did, but you can.. FM Transmitter widget, or QWERTY12's FM transmitter.so file that puts it permantely in the menu. It even auto FM boosts it for you if you have it installed.

Sooooo.. are those portions of the OS so closed that someone in the community couldn't actually fix the problem? And people complain that Android is closed?

kryptoniankid17

2010-07-09, 09:38

Turkishflavor

2010-07-09, 09:57

never ever. f**** android.

attila77

2010-07-09, 10:15

please explain why symbian is out of date. Give valid points. i agree it has its issues but it seems people are saying its out of date just to fit in

People say that because more often than not they can't tell the difference between UI and OS (if you think GNOME (or KDE) sucks, does that mean Linux as a whole sucks ?). S60 really is out of date and no plastic surgery can remedy that. Symbian^4 will bring significant changes (though even Symbian^3 could probably be made decent if put on more powerful hardware), with Qt doing away with the hideous Symbian API and that's why IMO a dubious choice that they kept the Symbian name, as it is damaged brand-wise.

Also, there are many OS-es left out from that list, like BlackBerry OS (it's interesting how in this whole OS war BB gets ignored), Bada, S40, BREW, LiMo, you name it.

tissot

2010-07-09, 10:27

Now? Simply put what all work Nokia have build in Qt, Symbian Foundation and MeeGo. No, it's not possible.

From the start if they would have jumped to Android they would be in better position than now, but i believe Nokia could have never been able to repeat the Symbian success using Android.
With MeeGo, Symbian Foundation and S40 they again got something unique and with Nokia brand they are one of the couple of brands in the industry that can make this turn to something big. Time is running, but imho it's possible.

BatPenguin

2010-07-09, 10:33

please explain why symbian is out of date. Give valid points. i agree it has its issues but it seems people are saying its out of date just to fit in

Its market share is falling and even Nokia has somewhat acknowledged that it's not at the level of its competitors in these high-level phones. When people talk about phones here, we're constantly talking about the 300+ euro phones, not the everyday cheap ones, so whether or not Symbian has a 40% of the overall cell phone market is not that relevant...what's relevant is that Symbian's smartphone market share is shrinking. Symbian is moving to mid-level and low-level devices, Nokia has confirmed this, and Meego will be used for the high-end devices.

So Symbian will probably maintain a huge overall market share if you just look at the overall amount of phones sold, I don't think anybody's denying it. But most of those devices will be the cheap under 100 euro phones in a year or two. And Nokia really, really wants to sell the expensive phones as well, this is not something they want to be doing, selling cheap phones.

Another factor against Symbian's chances is that Android 2.x is apparently going to be Android's low-end hardware OS version next year when Android 3.0 comes out at Christmas time. Having used an Android phone for a year (running 2.1 now) and having seen numerous new Symbian phones, there's simply no competition in the "feel of the OS". If this is what cheap 150 euro Android phones will have next year, Symbian is in big trouble. Forget open source and the anti-google ideas here for a moment and think about a normal consumer that wants something "pretty" with "apps" and "stuff". Symbian ain't pretty, Android is.

So, Symbian might not look like an attractive mid-range OS next year either. And no, the N8 / Symbian 3 won't change much, the OS is not much different at all, the feel of it is exactly the same and the Ovi app selection won't be magically improved, it's falling further behind. Nice camera, though, but well, not impressed.

Anyway, that's why I think people are dismissing Symbian. Looking at what is going on now, it's pretty clear that Symbian will be a "cheap phone" OS pretty soon.

As to the topic of the discussion: I would personally hope that Nokia created a Android line of phones, "Nokia A series" or something, but keep Meego of course, the more OS's the merrier. Saying that Nokia would be under the rule of Google by producing Android phones is kinda ignoring reality: Nokia could put their own Ovi store, maps, etc. on top of Android and refuse the Google apps. I think Nokia has a tendency of making bad software, bad services and pretty nice hardware, so I'd really like them concentrating on making hardware. The services are bad and Nokia's software (think about buggy firmwares, ovi suite etc.) really is pretty terrible. Make hardware. Use the best softtware you can, even if it's not your own. Please.

cashclientel

2010-07-09, 10:46

please explain why symbian is out of date. Give valid points. i agree it has its issues but it seems people are saying its out of date just to fit in

Hey, don't want to take it OT (!), but I think I do need to back up my statement.

Perform the following test over 24 hours:
1. Use an N97
2. Use an iPhone 3GS (it's direct competitor)
3. Use a G1 (another direct competitor, perhaps a bit older)

Tell me what you think.

Yes the hardware is different, but still the differences can be seen. Symbian just has a look and feel that is out of date.

Fair point re: "KDE looks out of date therefore Linux is out of date" - it's not the best logic path. Remember on phones though that UI is a large proportion of the function; certainly larger than desktop OSs or server systems.

OVK

2010-07-09, 10:52

Fair point re: "KDE looks out of date therefore Linux is out of date" - it's not the best logic path. Remember on phones though that UI is a large proportion of the function; certainly larger than desktop OSs or server systems.

I have understood that Symbian is going to have new UI. Does this mean that if the new UI is good Symbian can be taken seriously again?

c:drive

2010-07-09, 11:01

Yaa Yaa, why not window 7?
(i think we r ranout of ideas)

cashclientel

2010-07-09, 11:13

I have understood that Symbian is going to have new UI. Does this mean that if the new UI is good Symbian can be taken seriously again?

Obviously, yes.

I think the long game with nokia is to phase out symbian until the 'dumb' phones hit the bottom of the Meego specification then they'll move all onto a single platform. I haven't got a link to this.

ajflex

2010-07-09, 11:33

meego is not all.
symbian os is very in my opinion.
You are all band wagones.
symbian is the first open sorce platfarm and still the best, symbian is top band OS give it the repect it soppose to f**k android everytime some order android comes out 1.5 now 2.2 and soon 3.0 the OS is too soon the isnt ready.
synbian and maemo will do just find if maemo will put out more games and more bug fixes.
maemo is still more advanced than android 3.0 and iphone OS put to together
maemo 1.3 come we will see or Meego 1.1 for n900

bergie

2010-07-09, 11:36

On phones we've got (in no particular order):
Symbian
iOS
Windows
Meego
Android

This is surely too many. Can all of these survive and is this best for consumers?

It is still quite early in the smartphone game, so it is good to have many different approaches to boost competition and innovation. This is more like the desktop computer space of 80s than late-90s Microsoft dominance. I'm quite reluctant to accept the iPhone model as the "definitive smartphone", as I do a lot more with my N900 already...

Besides, with Qt you can write apps for all of them (iOS being the only exception, I think?) :cool:

pantera1989

2010-07-09, 11:39

And Nokia really, really wants to sell the expensive phones as well, this is not something they want to be doing, selling cheap phones.

This is a really silly point. Sales are sales. Selling four 100 euro phones is better than selling one 300 euro phone.

attila77

2010-07-09, 11:52

It is still quite early in the smartphone game, so it is good to have many different approaches to boost competition and innovation. This is more like the desktop computer space of 80s than late-90s Microsoft dominance. I'm quite reluctant to accept the iPhone model as the "definitive smartphone", as I do a lot more with my N900 already...

Indeed it *does* feel a lot like the '80s, with Commodore vs Sinclair vs Atari vs Amstrad vs IBM vs Apple vs who-knows-what, with the slight difference that we are blessed with a bit more commoditized hardware (though the clouds of war over the high-end smartphone/netbook area are certainly gathering).

Besides, with Qt you can write apps for all of them (iOS being the only exception, I think?) :cool:

You can port Qt to pretty much anything that has/allows execution of compiled C++ code, true, but let's not get carried away, the only realistic targets are Android and WebOS, the rest don't allow it or don't care.

BatPenguin

2010-07-09, 12:01

This is a really silly point. Sales are sales. Selling four 100 euro phones is better than selling one 300 euro phone.

No, the point isn't silly at all. Nokia's average selling price for phones has been dropping all the time and it's a major problem for them. You get a lot more profit from selling the more expensive phones. The N900 doesn't exactly cost 600 euros to manufacture. R&D costs exist for both cheap and expensive phones. Sony Ericssson's CEO has, for example, said that they won't go into the cheap phones anymore since the margins are so small that they couldn't be able to produce them at prices that compete with Nokia, and still make money. This means that Nokia is not exactly raking in money from cheap phones. The expensive phones are where the money is -- and if a phone's selling price is 300 euros, they probably make much more profit on it than they do by selling three 100 euro phones.

The average price of a Nokia phone sold today is down to 62 €. The average price of a Nokia smartphone is now down to 155 €. (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1f67240c-4dfc-11df-b437-00144feab49a.html )

These numbers are falling all the time. I won't look up links for this, google it yourself, but the amount of PROFIT Apple makes per iphone is somewhere between 300 - 600 dollars per phone, I seem to recall. This is where Nokia wants to be. So if the magic fairy makes Nokia's 150 € smartphones for free, they only need to sell 2 to get the profit Apple is making.

It's not a silly point. I may have worded it in a not too good manner, but the point is valid: the cheap phone market is Nokia's since not too many of these major companies want to be there at all.

tissot

2010-07-09, 12:17

Obviously, yes.

I think the long game with nokia is to phase out symbian until the 'dumb' phones hit the bottom of the Meego specification then they'll move all onto a single platform. I haven't got a link to this.
I doubt it. Symbian Foundation got longterm plan where the os gets update every 6 months. Some features for symbian^6 are already talked about. It doesn't mean Nokia will use symbian in 4 years time, but looking at the numbers Nokia is expecting next year where symbian is actually challenging s40 i'd say for now that Nokia has no plans to phase symbian out. They might lower symbian for what it is now if MeeGo takes off.
Imo it's kind of useless talk about how symbian looks now compared to others as s^4 is the milestone where the avkon(avkon=s60) is changed to qt and the old app base is erased(other than the qt apps made now).

ironm8

2010-07-09, 12:49

if you all wanna know why its better to invest in high-tech phones
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/jun2010/tc20100627_763714.htm
it takes 188$ parts to make an prox. 800$ phone(unlocked) thats an amazing profit! think how many of those apple sold till now!!

with that in mind, making "expensive" and good phones allows you to charge for those attributes. today, if it doesnt have a touch screen i wouldnt touch it for more than 50$. just making the plastic costs more.

thats why everybody jumps on the smartphone wagon, they know exacly that.

p.s
There is also Bada O.S ;)

Jedibeeftrix

2010-07-09, 12:50

"Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?"

No, because I like what is a fundamentally more open platform, and sincerely hope that MeeGo does not regress in this regard.

http://jedibeeftrix.wordpress.com/2010/06/06/ultimate-convergance-device-nokia-and-the-meego-tablet-phone/

jsa

2010-07-09, 13:09

No, the point isn't silly at all. Nokia's average selling price for phones has been dropping all the time and it's a major problem for them. You get a lot more profit from selling the more expensive phones. The N900 doesn't exactly cost 600 euros to manufacture. R&D costs exist for both cheap and expensive phones. Sony Ericssson's CEO has, for example, said that they won't go into the cheap phones anymore since the margins are so small that they couldn't be able to produce them at prices that compete with Nokia, and still make money. This means that Nokia is not exactly raking in money from cheap phones. The expensive phones are where the money is -- and if a phone's selling price is 300 euros, they probably make much more profit on it than they do by selling three 100 euro phones.

The average price of a Nokia phone sold today is down to 62 €. The average price of a Nokia smartphone is now down to 155 €. (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1f67240c-4dfc-11df-b437-00144feab49a.html )

These numbers are falling all the time. I won't look up links for this, google it yourself, but the amount of PROFIT Apple makes per iphone is somewhere between 300 - 600 dollars per phone, I seem to recall. This is where Nokia wants to be. So if the magic fairy makes Nokia's 150 € smartphones for free, they only need to sell 2 to get the profit Apple is making.

It's not a silly point. I may have worded it in a not too good manner, but the point is valid: the cheap phone market is Nokia's since not too many of these major companies want to be there at all.

The point isn't silly, but it certainly isn't as simplistic as you make it out to be.

Isn't the SE CEO implying that they want to be there, but just can't compete with Nokia in the low end?

Q1/2010 almost exactly half of Nokia's devices net sales(3,3 of 6,7 B euros) came from phones with an ASP of 39 euros. Margins are smaller than in smartphones, but wouldn't it be disastrous to just drop all that? There's certainly someone to take that market, so why just give it to them? Could they increase sales of smartphones enough to recoup all that? What's holding them back now? If they can't do it now, why could they do it after dropping basic phones?

Why give up the strong presence in the huge developing markets for short term gains instead of offering models in all price ranges for people to move up the ladder in the long term?

They're behind in the high end smartphones right now, but working hard to fix that while making migrating featurephone/dumbphone users to smartphones by pushing Symbian in the lower price ranges. Competition in the high end is getting bloodier by the day, so it may be smarter than people think to not keep all the eggs in the same basket.

The only purpose for Android in Nokia portfolio I can see would be a few NA only smartphones to gain some initial foothold/recognition in the US which is living the smartphone fever right now to eventually transition them to other Nokia platforms. But as mentioned, it'll be a cold day in hell when we'll see an Android device from Nokia. And I personally like that.

BatPenguin

2010-07-09, 13:24

Could they increase sales of smartphones enough to recoup all that? What's holding them back now? If they can't do it now, why could they do it after dropping basic phones?

Why give up the strong presence in the huge developing markets for short term gains instead of offering models in all price ranges for people to move up the ladder in the long term?

I'm not really seeing who's advocating them giving up cheap phones...I certainly don't think I said anything of the sort, I was just pointing out that companies make more money by selling expensive phones, the point was simply that Nokia would like to sell more expensive phones, not less.

Like you said, there's no reason for them to give up the these current Series40 (that will be Symbian later) devices since they are selling well in certain markets. But it is a problem if that's the only market they're good at. Nokia has a good customer base in developing nations with the cheap phones, that's totally true. That doesn't mean that those customers wouldn't want to buy non-Nokia phones later, if they can afford it. A car analogy will serve fine here: you knew the guy in college who drove an old, rusted Ford. When he got the good job after school, did he buy a Ford? That's the point. Nokia needs good expensive phones too, currently they're having to cut their prices to keep selling them.

What this has to do with the topic, I have no idea.

nad6234

2010-07-09, 13:26

jsa

2010-07-09, 13:35

I'm not really seeing who's advocating them giving up cheap phones...

Yeah, I may have read a bit too much into it, sorry. :) But I have read countless posts here and elsewhere advocating Nokia to give up cheap phones, even as far as suggesting they should only make one/a couple of models like Apple. But it seems we're in agreement, including the off-topic part.

bzhbok

2010-07-09, 16:16

yes and see where its gotten them
http://mynokiablog.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/chartday.jpg?w=500&h=287

If I was any of Nokia’s shareholders right now I would seriously be disgusted to see this.

I mean Nokia as valuable as RIM. Come on Nokia what are you doing ?!?!?!?!?

This chart shows Apple’s market cap at roughly $247 billion exactly the same market cap Nokia had in 2000 a full 10 years ago, oh how time flies. Shows how much Nokia has become complacent and possibilities of Nokia being overtaken as the world’s largest mobile phone maker is a certainty and I can’t help but thinking that no one at Nokia is serious enough to become great as it once was. It is important for big European companies to stay relevant in the world stage especially Nokia, we don’t want( well i don’t) a world where tech companies are only from America and far eastern Asia. It would be nice to see European tech companies doing well.
souce: http://mynokiablog.com/2010/06/22/gulp/
This chart means most investissor are like teenage girls, they follow the trend. They look at the current profit of each firm but hardly anticipate any change in the market. I guess that for most of them MeeGo is flying under their radar or in the case they heard about it they hardly looked at the technology... Anyway MeeGo is something like 6 month away, and it is far away for traders. So the situation is that most of them doesn't see the potential, and if they do, they are waiting an upward trend before to invest. I don't expect any upward trends before autumn since Nokia's quaterly results are going to be bad for te next two quarter (profit warning announced).

gerbick

2010-07-09, 19:17

This chart means most investissor are like teenage girls, they follow the trend.

Couldn't disagree more. It shows that the shareholder has endured a drop, based on sales yet falling marketshare - their best selling products are from their mid to low-range products and that will only do so much for a company.

Investors that don't immediately see the positives of buying and then opening Symbian - only to have Symbian considered a "dead OS" by a lot of folks around here, or coming out with a Maemo OS phone, only to announce 6 months later MeeGo is the new direction and then watch the madness unfold because months later people had to wait for PR1.2 and then get a notice that they were not going to get official Nokia support for going from Maemo to MeeGo... and no communication from Nokia to their loyal fans, the investors see that.

Has very little do to with fads; investors want to make money. And if the company seems like they're being directed wrong or have no direction, your company will lose share price(s).

Be realistic.

kryptoniankid17

2010-07-09, 22:21

Hey, don't want to take it OT (!), but I think I do need to back up my statement.

Perform the following test over 24 hours:
1. Use an N97
2. Use an iPhone 3GS (it's direct competitor)
3. Use a G1 (another direct competitor, perhaps a bit older)

Tell me what you think.

Yes the hardware is different, but still the differences can be seen. Symbian just has a look and feel that is out of date.

Fair point re: "KDE looks out of date therefore Linux is out of date" - it's not the best logic path. Remember on phones though that UI is a large proportion of the function; certainly larger than desktop OSs or server systems.
I've used the 3gs and have owned a g1. The G1 was the reason i went back to using my n95. The 3gs my brother owned was the reason he went android.

ogre

2010-07-10, 08:28

I must say this is the worst topic I have ever seen. Nokia practically started Meego..

It's like asking if Apple should use Android instead of iOS..

Yes, I think that is a much better idea.

Apple should drop their efforts and switch to Android. Of course that would allow people to put much more on the iPhone without apple getting a slice so they won't. But it would be good for consumers.

Nokia dropping going to a slightly less open system however would NOT be good for consumers.

mikec

2010-07-10, 09:03

Some additional information to throw into the mix from Motorola's 10K statement Q1 2010 as an example of a company moving to Android.
===============================
• In Mobile Devices: Net sales were $1.6 billion in the first quarter of 2010, a decrease of 9% compared to
net sales of $1.8 billion in the first quarter of 2009. The decrease in net sales was primarily driven by a
42% decrease in unit shipments, partially offset by a 57% increase in average selling price (‘‘ASP’’). We
shipped 8.5 million handsets in the first quarter of 2010, a 29% decrease sequentially compared to
shipments of 12.0 million handsets in the fourth quarter of 2009. We shipped 2.3 million Android-based
smartphones in the first quarter of 2010, a 15% increase sequentially compared to shipments of
2.0 million in the fourth quarter of 2009. On a geographic basis, net sales decreased in Latin America,
Asia, and the Europe, Middle East and Africa region (‘‘EMEA’’), partially offset by increased net sales in
North America.

And from Motorolas Annual report
========================

"Our strategy for the Mobile Devices business may be too concentrated on certain products.
The product portfolio in the Mobile Devices business is extensively targeted at the smartphone market, with
particular concentration on smartphones using an Android-based operating system. These products are an
important part of the business plan. If such Android-based smartphones do not remain competitive in the
marketplace, our financial performance would suffer and a shift in strategy would be costly and difficult."

"If our operating system strategy is not successful, our Mobile Devices business could be negatively impacted.
We have made a strategic decision to use third-party and/or open source operating systems, such as Google’s
Android operating system in our wireless products. As a result of this, we are at risk due to our dependency on
third parties’ continued development of operating systems and third parties’ software application ecosystem
infrastructures. With respect to Google’s Android operating system, which is a newer operating system for
wireless handsets, in the event that Google’s Android team no longer develops the Android code base and this
development is not taken up by the open source community, this would increase the burden of development on
Motorola. From an overall risk perspective, the industry is currently engaged in an extremely competitive phase
with respect to operating system platforms and software generally. Android is viewed as a competitive platform in
the Linux and smartphone categories. If (i) Android fails to continue to gain operator and/or developer adoption,
or (ii) any updated versions or new releases of Google’s Android operating system are not made available to
Motorola in a timely fashion, Motorola could be competitively disadvantaged and the Company’s financial results
could be negatively impacted."

Just some thoughts from people who have to run a business...

danramos

2010-07-10, 09:06

I'm sure I could take the time to read all of this stuff, but to be honest, I've been installing Debian since 2.0 and I kinda like a Debian core to my portable device. I'm sure that someone will say that meego will change all that, but I brought my n900 knowing exactly what it was (and what it wasn't).

Nokia: do what you want, but I for one would like to publicly thank you for creating such a great little device. :: Thank you ::

As a Debian fan, do you enjoy only being able to use only the Nokia firmware imagines they give you to run and nothing else because they decided to use so many open-source hostile components and closed up so many portions of the Debian-based Maemo OS they butchered-up to put on the N900?

barzam

2010-07-10, 09:21

They ever fix how you cannot use the FM transmitter while charging the phone?

By not working you mean the static interference you hear while it's charging? I "solved" it by attaching a pair of not working head phones to my radio's antenna (attached with just a little knot).

bzhbok

2010-07-10, 09:47

Couldn't disagree more. It shows that the shareholder has endured a drop, based on sales yet falling marketshare - their best selling products are from their mid to low-range products and that will only do so much for a company.

Investors that don't immediately see the positives of buying and then opening Symbian - only to have Symbian considered a "dead OS" by a lot of folks around here, or coming out with a Maemo OS phone, only to announce 6 months later MeeGo is the new direction and then watch the madness unfold because months later people had to wait for PR1.2 and then get a notice that they were not going to get official Nokia support for going from Maemo to MeeGo... and no communication from Nokia to their loyal fans, the investors see that.

Has very little do to with fads; investors want to make money. And if the company seems like they're being directed wrong or have no direction, your company will lose share price(s).

Be realistic.

It is exactly what I said : you are looking at the past and you don't understand the logic. Personnally I think Nokia decisions make sense. Of course their current range of device is not really exciting, but it is to be expected when you make a major platform rewrite. But MeeGo and symbian^4 are very promising platforms and the current stock valuation doesn't reflect that...

Nathraiben

2010-07-10, 10:58

It is exactly what I said : you are looking at the past and you don't understand the logic. Personnally I think Nokia decisions make sense. Of course their current range of device is not really exciting, but it is to be expected when you make a major platform rewrite. But MeeGo and symbian^4 are very promising platforms and the current stock valuation doesn't reflect that...
Just playing a bit of devil's advocate, but both of you seem to forget that 2010's barely part of that chart. It shows the development of the last 10 years, and the numbers actually don't address neither the recent influx of poor marketing decisions in the last couple of months (I wouldn't interpret too much into the drop at the beginning of 2010 - for some strange reason, Nokia's value seems to drop like that at the beginning of every year), nor the potentially good marketing decisions regarding MeeGo and Ovi Store (opening it up for private developers).

They also don't say much about the impact of the iPhone - the huge drop in 07/08 affected Apple just as much, it's just that thanks to their viral marketing strategies they seem to have recovered fairly quickly.

barzam

2010-07-10, 11:15

ysss

2010-07-10, 11:43

Actually I don't see much people in here complaining about Android being closed. What ticks me off about Android is that Google themselves are in charge of the direction it's taking whereas Meego hopefully will turn about to be a true community effort. Not saying Google necessarily is taking it in a bad direction, on the contrary I think they've done a superb job finally bringing a Linux distro to the masses without people even noticing that it's Linux.

That's exactly what's needed to get these things off the ground. Look at how slow the ones with 'design by committee' mindsets (um, debian for example). They're idealist, complete, can do no wrong.. But they don't do no 'right' within reasonable timeframe either (to be 'competitive').

Nathraiben

2010-07-10, 11:53

That's exactly what's needed to get these things off the ground. Look at how slow the ones with 'design by committee' mindsets (um, debian for example). They're idealist, complete, can do no wrong.. But they don't do no 'right' within reasonable timeframe either (to be 'competitive').
But that's where Ubuntu kicks in (and, while of course not perfect, I'd call that one pretty competitive). And I dare say MeeGo is more comparable to Ubuntu (open source, but not "die hard" so, and also backed up by a company) than Debian itself.

barzam

2010-07-10, 11:55

The Debian project has a up-to date testing version, only the stable releases get delayed due to them wanting a stable release. I don't see how this is a bad thing.

In any way, now that Android is finally taken off the ground with the 2.2 release Google ought to make it an open project, which we all will not happen.

acou

2010-07-10, 12:03

What ticks me off about Android is that scifi-geeks and people interested in robotics now have a hard time finding valuable information about their subjects.
But that's Googol. Stealing and monetizing commons.

Crashdamage

2010-07-10, 12:07

Actually I don't see much people in here complaining about Android being closed. What ticks me off about Android is that Google themselves are in charge of the direction it's taking whereas Meego hopefully will turn about to be a true community effort.
Agreed.

Not saying Google necessarily is taking it in a bad direction, on the contrary I think they've done a superb job finally bringing a Linux distro to the masses without people even noticing that it's Linux.
Disagree. Android is really not Linux, and certainly not a Linux distro. It's only a much-modified linux kernel supporting a Davlik VM.

It has helped some to increase public awareness that there's a thing called Linux. But not much, since most Android users still don't know Linux is in there at all. Betcha if you asked 10 Android users what Linux is at least 9 would have no clue.

If MeeGo succeeds, it will change that because it really is Linux, as in a real Linux distro.

ysss

2010-07-10, 12:08

But that's where Ubuntu kicks in (and, while of course not perfect, I'd call that one pretty competitive). And I dare say MeeGo is more comparable to Ubuntu (open source, but not "die hard" so, and also backed up by a company) than Debian itself.

Ubuntu is a great example for that. But i'm still skeptical that Nokia can change themselves enough to do us 'right' this time around. Onky time will tell....

@barzam: there's testing and experimental (sid), but you'll risk to get tangled up in all sort of dependency hell and limbo mix and matching dists... Which is why i think the semi sandboxed design is still more suitable for handhelds....

barzam

2010-07-10, 12:13

I define Linux as something which is running the Linux kernel. What's your definition as you seem to use another one? I personally use a heavily modified Linux kernel in my netbook (stripped of loads of modules), and I still think it's a Linux kernel.

But I see what you mean: Maemo, and I guess Meego, really feel like a normal distro (repositories, terminal, googling for help to fix weird problems, GPL applications) whereas Android must be very different.

Nathraiben

2010-07-10, 12:16

Ubuntu is a great example for that. But i'm still skeptical that Nokia can change themselves enough to do us 'right' this time around. Onky time will tell....
Hehe, I would say there's still Intel - but after the GMA500 fiasco I'd rather go with Nokia... :D

Maybe I'm a bit dewy-eyed, but I'm still pretty optimistic when it comes to MeeGo. Other than the cherry bomb, Nokia shows signs of finally steering into the right direction (they are finally putting more focus on 3rd party implementations instead of keeping everything to themselves just to drop it half a year later), and I have high hopes for the Symbian-Qt-MeeGo combination.

msa

2010-07-10, 12:22

barzam

2010-07-10, 12:28

For me the openness of Maemo was the only reason I ever bought a N900. If I wanted shitloads of great and not great apps and a slick interface I can't see why you'd ever pick something other than ios or android.

My experience with the applications on Maemo is that there is a lot and that they work great. I can't really think of a single thing (apart from the game Ancient domains of mystery) I'm really missing. I receive updates several times a week btw, maybe you need to enable the testing and devel repos if you want to update more.

Seriously they way you put it, it really looks like disrespect.

mikec

2010-07-10, 13:08

I once had a fiend that said to me why would you ever buy an Audi (with respect to German cars). If you want luxury go for a Merc.
If you want a sporty number go for a BMW or Porsche. Seems to be the same for Android to me. If you want Apps why not get a fruit phone? If you want openess....

If app's were important in the Open source world Linux, would have died a long time ago, I mean not even 1% of the desktop market WTF. Sure it would be nice to have shed loads of apps, but for me standards and choice are more important, and Open source keeps all the proprietary companies honest. Nokia will always get my £500 every 18 months as long as they continue to invest upstream.

barzam

2010-07-10, 13:35

ysss

2010-07-10, 13:39

Hehe, I would say there's still Intel - but after the GMA500 fiasco I'd rather go with Nokia... :D

Maybe I'm a bit dewy-eyed, but I'm still pretty optimistic when it comes to MeeGo. Other than the cherry bomb, Nokia shows signs of finally steering into the right direction (they are finally putting more focus on 3rd party implementations instead of keeping everything to themselves just to drop it half a year later), and I have high hopes for the Symbian-Qt-MeeGo combination.

Eh, I don't know.. I'm kind of fed up by Nokia's "support on a shoe string". With the combination of driver lock outs, strategically placed close bits, short term supports, half-@ssed 3rd party strategy.. they're pretty effective in shutting down devices.

If I'm a reasonable person, I'd say they were doing all this with a single purpose of planned obsolescence...

daperl

2010-07-10, 14:10

barzam

2010-07-10, 14:27

As a former Audi 80 owner (1989 model) I can only agree.

wmarone

2010-07-10, 16:11

openness isnt always a plus. it sure isnt a minus, but what are the advantages that we as the maemo-community in general (and the n900-community specifically) have?
a freakin lot of half-baked hobby-apps that dont work. now i dont want to disrespect the free time and effort all the developers put in their apps, but to me as the consumer, unfinished apps arent helpful to me.
The openness of an OS has nothing to do with the availability (or lack) of applications. That has everything to do with someone providing an avenue by which they can be sold, and Nokia's sloppy execution of Ovi is the main culprit.

and now take a look at the android-apps. a lot of them are much more polished and professional. a friend of mine (owning a htc magic) once complained to me that he is getting updates to his apps every day.
i would LOVE when i would get an update once a week or month.
opensource sure is a nice thing, but it doesnt make maemo much better than not-so-open OS'es like android.
i guess there are much more private free developers on android as there are with maemo. there has to be a reason for that.
Numbers. Total end users. It's all about that. If the iPhone was unpopular it would never have had a real SDK nor the mass number of Apps written for it.

gerbick

2010-07-10, 16:23

Apple XCode existed before the Apple iPhone. The SDK was necessary to support development on the iPhone and iPod Touch once it came out.

The API was so well-documented that it's extended to stuff like Unity3D, Visual Studio .NET, and other IDE's - which accelerated adoption.

That last part is what's wrong with Qt imho. It's been around for ages; however I can't just open up TextMate or XCode or Visual Studio or Komodo ActiveState or Coda and start coding off the bat.

wmarone

2010-07-10, 16:30

That last part is what's wrong with Qt imho. It's been around for ages; however I can't just open up TextMate or XCode or Visual Studio or Komodo ActiveState or Coda and start coding off the bat.

But you can open up Qt Creator, which is the Qt equivalent. What is missing from Qt that the other platforms have? And in the end you can't just start throwing code at things, otherwise you end up in a pinch and rewriting stuff (I know this from experience.)

gerbick

2010-07-10, 16:35

Yeah, right after I hit send, I remembered Qt Creator.

I just never quite liked it - seems slow to me on my Mac whereas it's not so slow on my Linux box - which is much lesser spec'd.

barzam

2010-07-10, 17:10

A few years ago when I found out about Linux I was so thrilled and wanted the entire world to use it, because.. somehow I thought it would make things better. Isn't the same thing happening here? Maemo isn't getting any worse just because it's a small platform, nor would it improve much just because it got popular.

acou

2010-07-10, 17:17

Keep repeating yourselves.

Trolling this intelligently dumb place is so damn easy...

attila77

2010-07-10, 17:45

The API was so well-documented that it's extended to stuff like Unity3D, Visual Studio .NET, and other IDE's - which accelerated adoption.

That last part is what's wrong with Qt imho. It's been around for ages; however I can't just open up TextMate or XCode or Visual Studio or Komodo ActiveState or Coda and start coding off the bat.

? Visual Studio, Eclipse and KDevelop had special Qt integration for ages. In fact, for a while, VS was *the* environment to work in if you did commercial desktop Qt apps. When Qt went LGPL, these got free too, but nowadays, QtCreator is really improving rapidly, my only complaint is that it doesn’t do Python :)

http://doc.qt.nokia.com/vs-add-in-1.0/index.html
http://doc.qt.nokia.com/vs-integration-1.4/index.html
http://doc.qt.nokia.com/qt-eclipse-1.6/index.html

mikec

2010-07-10, 20:33

Worst car analogy ever. It's not too late for an edit or delete.

Vorsprung durch technik :D

daperl

2010-07-10, 20:59

Vorsprung durch technik :D

Google translate kinda failed me. Is it:

Lead by technology?

EDIT: Whoa, another daperl dense moment.

"advancement through technology" (http://www.audiusa.com/us/brand/en/tools/advice/glossary/vorsprung_durch_technik.browser.html)

mikec

2010-07-11, 10:18

Google translate kinda failed me. Is it:

Lead by technology?

EDIT: Whoa, another daperl dense moment.

"advancement through technology" (http://www.audiusa.com/us/brand/en/tools/advice/glossary/vorsprung_durch_technik.browser.html)

It was Audi's advertising slogan for many years (at least in the UK), which kinda got embedded in every day language . Your translation is about right. Kinda embraces the OP :p

barzam

2010-07-11, 10:21

I always understood it like:
"being ahead because of technology"

That's the meaning of försprång in Swedish anyway (which as you see corresponds with Vorsprung in German).

kryptoniankid17

2010-07-12, 01:03

Some interesting thoughts on whats wrong with symbians UI

http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/features/item/A_New_UI_is_not_needed_for_Symbian_3_just_make_the _existing_one_work.php

ZShakespeare

2010-07-12, 05:04

The long and short of it that is they should either improve what they have to be competetive in the mass market, or they should adopt an alternative that is whether android or not.

ossipena

2010-07-12, 05:15

extendedping

2010-07-12, 05:34

can android run easy debian? if so I really don't care of they go with android.

longcat

2010-07-12, 05:52

android is a market hype since google did A LOT in terms of marketing, however maemo is not, since nokia did nothing.

kureyon

2010-07-12, 05:58

Not saying Google necessarily is taking it in a bad direction, on the contrary I think they've done a superb job finally bringing a Linux distro to the masses without people even noticing that it's Linux.
That's because android is just a shell to run java apps. It's based on the linux kernel but it's certainly not what one would traditionally call a linux distro.

kureyon

2010-07-12, 06:01

i guess there are much more private free developers on android as there are with maemo. there has to be a reason for that.
One of the reasons is that people had started developing apps (or at least playing around with android) years before an android phone was even released.

Thesandlord

2010-07-12, 06:18

can android run easy debian? if so I really don't care of they go with android.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/08/ubuntu-joins-android-on-nexus-one-apocalyptic-repercussions-now/

For all intents and purposes, yes. Slightly different than how its done on the Maemo devices, but basically the same.

Both versions run Debian (or Ubuntu) in a chroot, however the Android version seems to access it via VNC because Android does not have an X server while the Maemo version uses native x11 forwarding.

ysss

2010-07-12, 08:23

android is a market hype since google did A LOT in terms of marketing, however maemo is not, since nokia did nothing.

I'd agree that Android is a market hype if it dies down soon. Unfortunately, there's a ridiculously little chance of that happening.

telnet

2010-07-12, 08:26

NO !!

Stupid question, short answer

ossipena

2010-07-12, 08:55

Has very little do to with fads; investors want to make money. And if the company seems like they're being directed wrong or have no direction, your company will lose share price(s).

Be realistic.

well... don't know how much you really know about stock markets in reality but mass movements create a lot of arbitrage to those who have guts to swim crosscurrent. now there is a great panic about nokia. reasonable people and somewhat reasonable bots stir the soup and there is no sense to be seen atm.

your reply applies to idealistic investors but in certain situations, masses flow stupidly. and with apple masses are speculating. no dividend means people are waiting for bigger share price. with companies that pay constant dividends, price solely means nothing. and if dividends stay at certain level, real time pricing of stock has no effect to anything.

lpotter

2010-07-12, 09:03

You meant to say, "Should google drop android and go with meego and symbian". In which case, yes.

cashclientel

2010-07-12, 09:46

@lpotter of Nokia Corporation
Is that an honest opinion!

ysss

2010-07-12, 09:53

@lpotter of Nokia Corporation
Is that an honest opinion!

Of course it is.. why wouldn't it be...?

Any platform creator/proprietor/developer would want as many users as possible on their creations..

gerbick

2010-07-12, 14:09

well... don't know how much you really know about stock markets in reality but mass movements create a lot of arbitrage to those who have guts to swim crosscurrent. now there is a great panic about nokia. reasonable people and somewhat reasonable bots stir the soup and there is no sense to be seen atm.

your reply applies to idealistic investors but in certain situations, masses flow stupidly. and with apple masses are speculating. no dividend means people are waiting for bigger share price. with companies that pay constant dividends, price solely means nothing. and if dividends stay at certain level, real time pricing of stock has no effect to anything.

No. I meant exactly what I said. It has absolutely nothing to do with Apple. I've been an investor since the mid-80's and if you're trying to pull in how investors follow trends, let's put that to a rest right now.

The trend is to make money. The other situations, such as historical reasons to invest into a company ideal for altruistic reasons... that's being idealistic. And as of late, foolish.

Speculation is just that... speculation. You speculate like you do a hot area that might or might not have gold. And in this case, to see Nokia go from ~40 per share to ~8 per share, the disappointment is well-deserved. And I'm quite sure the dividends have not remained at the same level. To believe otherwise shows an entire lack of understanding in investing.

Here's your proof (http://investors.nokia.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=107224&p=irol-dividendhistory). It's currently on par with what was paid out in 2006 - around 48 cents per stock (http://www.dailyfinance.com/quotes/nokia-corporation/nok/nys/dividends-splits), down from 84 cents per stock in 2008.

This is yet another deflated stock that would probably be worthwhile purchasing - I just bought some - if your goals are indeed long-term and the management shakes out to forge a direction that's accepted by all shareholders as the right step forward.

Right now, that's not the case.

mangal_sk8erboy

2010-07-12, 14:11

nokia should drop meego and install vsync in maemo.
then game over.
FOR EVERY OTHER PHONE OUT THERE!

danramos

2010-07-14, 18:57

Actually I don't see much people in here complaining about Android being closed. What ticks me off about Android is that Google themselves are in charge of the direction it's taking whereas Meego hopefully will turn about to be a true community effort. Not saying Google necessarily is taking it in a bad direction, on the contrary I think they've done a superb job finally bringing a Linux distro to the masses without people even noticing that it's Linux.

What you might see, in terms of openness, is a severe lack of any real difference between Google's Android and Nokia's Maemo (possibly MeeGo, if it maintains the same damned status quo where community can't fix their own bugs for all the closed components Nokia forces into their damned OS images, with no usable alternative OS to turn to on these devices). Basically, it's a lack of advantage compared to Android.

wmarone

2010-07-14, 19:06

if it maintains the same damned status quo where community can't fix their own bugs for all the closed components Nokia forces into their damned OS images, with no usable alternative OS to turn to on these devices.

The advantage to MeeGo is that it is not bound to Nokia devices. There are some inescapable bits (thus far) with all ARM devices, namely the 3D drivers and the like tend to be closed. The only handset without this issue seems to be the Aava devkit but, well, yeah.

The -core- of MeeGo is open, which is important. And thus far, it's possible to assemble a MeeGo image with the closed bits pulled in. With luck, anyone should be able to pull those closed bits themselves and merge them with whatever (Linux-based) OS you want to install.

Getting a fully open device would be REALLY FREAKING NICE, but lacking that is not a reason to push towards Google's platform in lieu of MeeGo, IMO.

Driver and binary blob situation being equal between MeeGo and Android, MeeGo is not controlled by Google exclusively. That exclusive control (and single source dependency) makes vendors like Motorola nervous. MeeGo's independence is attractive from the same standpoint that makes the Linux kernel attractive, and hopefully will draw in vendors.

danramos

2010-07-14, 19:28

The advantage to MeeGo is that it is not bound to Nokia devices.

Having lived through the whole N800 era up to now, I'll believe it when I see it. I feel like I can no longer believe that Nokia wouldn't cripple it up like they have so far, even up to today.

There are some inescapable bits (thus far) with all ARM devices, namely the 3D drivers and the like tend to be closed. The only handset without this issue seems to be the Aava devkit but, well, yeah.

So, once again, you're pointing out how Nokia isn't any different from any other not-really-open handset maker, and putting it on even keel with Android. Why bother with Meamo or MeeGo, if I can get better support from another hardware manufacturer and Android keeps getting fixed up and supported better and more often than the Maemo track record this far?

The -core- of MeeGo is open, which is important. And thus far, it's possible to assemble a MeeGo image with the closed bits pulled in. With luck, anyone should be able to pull those closed bits themselves and merge them with whatever (Linux-based) OS you want to install.

I thought Nokia had provided binary driver bits for Maemo before too. How did that work out? How was getting bugfixes and updates for them? Still seems hostile to open-source. Also, I highly recommend you read http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100704191126134

Getting a fully open device would be REALLY FREAKING NICE, but lacking that is not a reason to push towards Google's platform in lieu of MeeGo, IMO.

Why not? So far, I have pushed associates, friends and family that way and they've been MUCH happier after the N800 fiascos. You have NO idea how much better it has been to support them even though I insist on working in open-source environments. Ultimately, I need to go where the experience is better and Nokia with Maemo has left all of us with painful experiences to remember when the time comes around to purchase new devices and the operating system to work with.

Driver and binary blob situation being equal between MeeGo and Android, MeeGo is not controlled by Google exclusively. That exclusive control (and single source dependency) makes vendors like Motorola nervous. MeeGo's independence is attractive from the same standpoint that makes the Linux kernel attractive, and hopefully will draw in vendors.

Let's hope that turn into a genuine advantage--MeeGo is a new name, but having Nokia involved makes me wonder how much Maemo status quo will influence the end product and direction.

fatalsaint

2010-07-14, 19:32

Having lived through the whole N800 era up to now, I'll believe it when I see it. I feel like I can no longer believe that Nokia wouldn't cripple it up like they have so far, even up to today.

Haven't really been following the thread..

Just dropped by to say:

Nokia's phones based on MeeGo could very likely be just another N8x0 or N900. It could very well contain other proprietary bits and pieces that make it not run on anything else.

This is not the fault MeeGo though, MeeGo itself (the way it appears to be planned anyway), should not be bound by any hardware requirements short of the hardware that linux itself is bound by.

Remember, MeeGo is just the framework and OS - the UI, Interface, UX, etc.. will all be different from manufacturer to manufacturer and you likely will find manufacturers using MeeGo to sell iphone-like closed phones.

attila77

2010-07-14, 19:46

Remember, MeeGo is just the framework and OS - the UI, Interface, UX, etc.. will all be different from manufacturer to manufacturer and you likely will find manufacturers using MeeGo to sell iphone-like closed phones.

Umm... No :) That's like saying Debian is just a framework and Ubuntu is the OS because it includes all those fancy closed bits and eyecandy tweaks. MeeGo is NOT a framework, it IS a full blown OS. It *can* be customized, preloaded (and diluted) by manufacturers who push it under a different name and/or package, but that does make MeeGo less of an OS.

danramos

2010-07-14, 19:52

fatalsaint

2010-07-14, 19:52

Umm... No :) That's like saying Debian is just a framework and Ubuntu is the OS because it includes all those fancy closed bits and eyecandy tweaks. MeeGo is NOT a framework, it IS a full blown OS. It *can* be customized, preloaded (and diluted) by manufacturers who push it under a different name and/or package, but that does make MeeGo less of an OS.

That is very close to how I see it, actually.

Ubuntu is Debian. It's just debian modified, more-so than most phones will be from MeeGo. It would be like, if Ubuntu used debian's own repo's and just setup sudo-packages to pre-install certain configurations.

That is how I see MeeGo operating.

The MeeGo we get from phone to phone is likely to have a very different user experience. Somewhat like the HTC Sense UI vs MotoBlur vs ... the Nook.

And some (or most) of those experiences can and likely will be very proprietary and unable to screw with.

Just because MeeGo goes the way of, say, pulseaudio or alsa or whatever, doesn't mean the end phone based on MeeGo needs to. They can have their own proprietary system in there if they want. Our current issue in Maemo with the audio system is it's not documented, and the core media apps are closed right? Nothing is stopping Nokia from doing this all over again with their phone based on MeeGo.

MeeGo is just the basic OS.. everything on top of that will be up to the discretion of the manufacturer. Unless you're telling me that the Linux Foundation is going to start requiring people using MeeGo to abide by certain rules to using their OS....

fatalsaint

2010-07-14, 19:56

You're not really helping to argue against anything I just said in this debate. :P

I'm not arguing any side.

What I am saying is that MeeGo is a separate and independent entity. I am saying that yes, Nokia can do the same things they've always done using MeeGo as the base, and proprietizing everything on top.. and so can everyone else.

But that in no way limits, de-legitimizes, or affects MeeGo itself. Just Nokia's version of it.

The comment I quoted from you implies Nokia would cripple MeeGo.. that's like saying by Maemo being based on debian packages it cripples debian. That's not the case.

Debian is still alive and well and fine... Nokia's edition of it is ... somewhat lacking.

wmarone

2010-07-14, 21:57

Having lived through the whole N800 era up to now, I'll believe it when I see it. I feel like I can no longer believe that Nokia wouldn't cripple it up like they have so far, even up to today.
And if they do, they're hanging themselves. That will (hopefully) have nothing to do with MeeGo proper.

So, once again, you're pointing out how Nokia isn't any different from any other not-really-open handset maker, and putting it on even keel with Android. Why bother with Meamo or MeeGo, if I can get better support from another hardware manufacturer and Android keeps getting fixed up and supported better and more often than the Maemo track record this far?
With hope, MeeGo will be able to move faster than Android as it pulls from numerous other sources, each of which providing far more focus on their part, rather than banking on a single provider for everything except the kernel.

And if you're a hardware vendor? You can say "MeeGo Powered" in an about box and place -your- branding all over instead of Google's. And maybe (just maybe) they could start pressing the US carriers to not demand exclusivity and crippling branding.

I thought Nokia had provided binary driver bits for Maemo before too. How did that work out? How was getting bugfixes and updates for them? Still seems hostile to open-source. Also, I highly recommend you read http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100704191126134
Did I say that having the closed bits was OK? No, I said that it's unavoidable in the ARM space, and short of buying an Aava Mobile handset we aren't getting a fully open handset any time soon.

The best we can do is push it out of the core such that the OS is in no way crippled by its exclusion. Unlike, say, the closed bits of Maemo that make it useless without them or the example you cite. If anyone tries to push for that, you blame the handset manufacturer and don't buy their device. I'd rather not toss in the trash all of the work done by the open source community in exchange for a stack that was never meant to be open to begin with, just because it's got a tiny lead.

Believe me, I want an open device, top to bottom. But the way things are, it's a wash so I'll support a push for a handset OS that isn't controlled totally by a single entity and keep hounding hardware companies for open drivers.

Let's hope that turn into a genuine advantage--MeeGo is a new name, but having Nokia involved makes me wonder how much Maemo status quo will influence the end product and direction.
Hopefully MeeGo will see adoption by another handset vendor and Nokia's influence won't be felt.

cBeam

2010-07-14, 22:09

danramos

2010-07-14, 22:26

And if they do, they're hanging themselves. That will (hopefully) have nothing to do with MeeGo proper.

Don't you think that Nokia has the potential to make MeeGo a failure? Will MeeGo proper run anywhere else where that won't be a problem, then?

With hope, MeeGo will be able to move faster than Android as it pulls from numerous other sources, each of which providing far more focus on their part, rather than banking on a single provider for everything except the kernel.

And if you're a hardware vendor? You can say "MeeGo Powered" in an about box and place -your- branding all over instead of Google's. And maybe (just maybe) they could start pressing the US carriers to not demand exclusivity and crippling branding.

Considering you're also fighting Nokia's unbelievably source code closed-mindedness and the very likely push-back from carriers, how (please tell!) do you think this will go? Simply saying, "You can put 'MeeGo Powered' on your menu!" isn't a selling point--it needs to mean something that CUSTOMERS want, and the whole "your branding" is silly--anyone can already do that with Android. I've got Verizon apps on my Droid that came with it and it's clearly a Verizon phone. Let's not underestimate things with the carriers and competition, here.

Did I say that having the closed bits was OK? No, I said that it's unavoidable in the ARM space, and short of buying an Aava Mobile handset we aren't getting a fully open handset any time soon.

I didn't say you said it was okay. I said, and I quote, "I thought Nokia had provided binary driver bits for Maemo before too. How did that work out? How was getting bugfixes and updates for them? Still seems hostile to open-source. Also, I highly recommend you read http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?s...00704191126134 (http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100704191126134)"

You clearly didn't bother to actually read what I said before you reacted and you didn't read the article... I'll address this in my next response below...

The best we can do is push it out of the core such that the OS is in no way crippled by its exclusion.

And crippling is the whole problem. Your OS will either NOT run, or will not run reliably or well on every device that decides that "open core" is a great idea! Effectively, open-core is crippling. RTFA. :P

Unlike, say, the closed bits of Maemo that make it useless without them or the example you cite. If anyone tries to push for that, you blame the handset manufacturer and don't buy their device. I'd rather not toss in the trash all of the work done by the open source community in exchange for a stack that was never meant to be open to begin with, just because it's got a tiny lead.

Well, given Nokia's trend so far, it doesn't sound like they'll be selling like hotcakes. I'm not sure why Nokia is involved. They OWNED that whole process in Maemo. I'm not sure why you think MeeGo will be a success if it's being based around Nokia's crappy choices of open-source hostile components.

Believe me, I want an open device, top to bottom. But the way things are, it's a wash so I'll support a push for a handset OS that isn't controlled totally by a single entity and keep hounding hardware companies for open drivers.

Hopefully MeeGo will see adoption by another handset vendor and Nokia's influence won't be felt.

And there's "the thing." I don't have a lot of faith in MeeGo until I see someone else involved. Nokia has been an utter disappointment. If Nokia was a guy, I would have kicked his legs out and repeatedly kicked him in the ribs, for the way they've made me feel as a repeat customer of their crap over the last couple of years. I'm only glad I'm not THAT dependent on their products, despite their attempts through crippling. I wish they'd concentrate on making the products we WANT and supporting their customers.

Good luck to MeeGo. If I had to wager, though, my guess is that it'll fade away to obscurity like a lot of similar attempts (uLinux, we hardly knew ya! Yopi was cute. Maemo.. well, you made a good first impression and then you got really ugly and mean.). heh

danramos

2010-07-14, 22:28

Not sure if this was already discussed (I do not like these monster threads):

There was a report on radio yesterday (marketplace). They talked about the iPhone 4 problems and that the next big competitor is coming. They said something like "... it is Google's new phone, the Droid X". Nowhere did they mention that Motorola (or is it HTC ???) is making the phone.

If Nokia goes Android, they would be just another commodity manufacturer (for better or worse).

Versus.. what? The continuing downward trend toward failure, like now? If Nokia produced Android phones in addition to MeeGo, they would at least be competing and making sure their brand was relevant. SELL THE CUSTOMERS WHAT THEY WANT. Is that really so hard to understand?

wmarone

2010-07-14, 23:06

Don't you think that Nokia has the potential to make MeeGo a failure?
Considering that Intel is pushing it along with Nokia, I don't see how. At this point anyone can grab it and move forward, doing effectively all the same work they have to do with Android now, minus having to depend on Google to continue development.

Considering you're also fighting Nokia's unbelievably source code closed-mindedness
Which has no bearing on MeeGo, since they can't retroactively close anything that's part of the OS. If you're talking about hardware, then we can be noisy or pick a manufacturer who will listen.

and the very likely push-back from carriers
Which is why exclusivity is bad for consumers.

Simply saying, "You can put 'MeeGo Powered' on your menu!" isn't a selling point--it needs to mean something that CUSTOMERS want
Hold on. Stop. It's a selling point for the VENDOR to use the OS. The -only- thing the end user cares about is that the device does what it is supposed to, and has a means of installing software.
"MeeGo Powered" just states a level of compatibility.

and the whole "your branding" is silly--anyone can already do that with Android.
And they also have to slather it with Google branding. IIRC, Intel's AppUp is serviced by a common back-end, with the front-end brandable by the vendor.

Good luck to MeeGo. If I had to wager, though, my guess is that it'll fade away to obscurity like a lot of similar attempts
Possibly. I certainly hope not.

uLinux, we hardly knew ya!
uLinux? Do you mean ucLinux, which is still quite popular for embedded applications, aimed more at microcontrollers than PDAs and phones?

Yopi was cute.
It also happened ten years ago. Everything has picked up steam since then.

All I've heard is "Android was there first, it wins, stop bothering. Oh and Nokia sucks." I'm tired of arguing against naysayers and people who conflate Nokia with MeeGo. I'd rather not end up with Google and Apple in control of mobile computing, but if you're OK with that, then by all means.

If Nokia produced Android phones in addition to MeeGo, they would be defeating the entire point of creating and using MeeGo
That's more accurate.

SELL THE CUSTOMERS WHAT THEY WANT.?
But I don't WANT Android. I'm sure many people who bought the N900 didn't want Android either, or they would have jumped on the DROID or Nexus One.

fatalsaint

2010-07-14, 23:14

And there's "the thing." I don't have a lot of faith in MeeGo until I see someone else involved. Nokia has been an utter disappointment.

And again I'm just popping in for a random thought:

I've seen, from an end user perspective, more Intel than Nokia in everything MeeGo to-date.

Intel's handset platform is the official platform, it actually works(!!!!!!), and has flashable images. On the N900.. we have to build and compile our own.

Intels UI is used on Netbooks.

A rather similar look and feel is used for the official Handset UX.

The Nokia N900 doesn't even have proper backlight controlling with MeeGo without hacking it.

So: While I am positive work has been done by Nokia for MeeGo... as an advanced power-user trying to test out the new stuff: The only stuff I can see... looks like Intel has had the most push into MeeGo.

Looking at what works in the AAVA Intel Handset videos of the current MeeGo vs what works on my N900 is about like looking at the iPhone or Android's phone app compared to the bolted-on-phone app in Maemo. The Nokia N900 in all cases that I can tell is but an afterthought in this process so far.

gerbick

2010-07-14, 23:20

Why would seeing more Intel than Nokia be a positive thing? It's not like they pushed Moblin.

attila77

2010-07-14, 23:20

Ubuntu is Debian. It's just debian modified, more-so than most phones will be from MeeGo. It would be like, if Ubuntu used debian's own repo's and just setup sudo-packages to pre-install certain configurations.

That is how I see MeeGo operating.

The MeeGo we get from phone to phone is likely to have a very different user experience. Somewhat like the HTC Sense UI vs MotoBlur vs ... the Nook.

And some (or most) of those experiences can and likely will be very proprietary and unable to screw with.

That is not how MeeGo is operating. Certain vendors, sure (but didn't we have bastardized Linux distros with TiVo, Archos, etc ?), but that's a different story. 'Cause no matter what Ubuntu does, it can only go so far from Debian without cutting it's umbilical cord, unlike Maemo, which has drifted halfway across the universe from Debian in the same timeframe. MeeGo will try to establish itself as the rock everybody builds on, and that's the best it can do (seriously, it's Free - the make-them-all-use-what-you-say-to-the-letter is Windows Phone 7 land).

Just because MeeGo goes the way of, say, pulseaudio or alsa or whatever, doesn't mean the end phone based on MeeGo needs to.

'Based on MeeGo' != MeeGo. If it doesn't have the required stuff, you can call it whatever you want, but it's not MeeGo.

They can have their own proprietary system in there if they want. Our current issue in Maemo with the audio system is it's not documented, and the core media apps are closed right? Nothing is stopping Nokia from doing this all over again with their phone based on MeeGo.

MeeGo is just the basic OS.. everything on top of that will be up to the discretion of the manufacturer. Unless you're telling me that the Linux Foundation is going to start requiring people using MeeGo to abide by certain rules to using their OS....

I'm telling you that. It is the reason some people are still kicking themselves because they don't know how to call Harmattan without shooting MeeGo in the foot on one side or shooting Harmattan in on the other.

Versus.. what? The continuing downward trend toward failure, like now? If Nokia produced Android phones in addition to MeeGo, they would at least be competing and making sure their brand was relevant. SELL THE CUSTOMERS WHAT THEY WANT. Is that really so hard to understand?

Even if we forego the usual short-sightedness of customers being totally clueless as to what lead times are, production of Android phones IN ADDITION to MeeGo is the silliest idea of them all. MeeGo is the direct competitor of Android, even official Nokia material/people say that. How do you push your platform by shipping devices with the platform you want to capture market share FROM ? It's like saying RedHat should sell Windows Server licenses/services too because customers want that.

w00t

2010-07-14, 23:23

MeeGo is just the basic OS.. everything on top of that will be up to the discretion of the manufacturer. Unless you're telling me that the Linux Foundation is going to start requiring people using MeeGo to abide by certain rules to using their OS....

No, that's precisely the way it will be I think, and personally I'd rather not have it any other way.

We have a chance to make our offering compelling enough for people to want to use it *more than* the proprietary offerings - work on that, and let market forces do their work.. :)

fatalsaint

2010-07-14, 23:23

Why would seeing more Intel than Nokia be a positive thing? It's not like they pushed Moblin.

I'm not saying positive or negative. Just different. Dan obviously has HUGE daddy Nokia (;)) issues... I was saying that I feel/see more influence from Intel than from anything maemo-like in MeeGo.

fatalsaint

2010-07-14, 23:28

I'm telling you that. It is the reason some people are still kicking themselves because they don't know how to call Harmattan without shooting MeeGo in the foot on one side or shooting Harmattan in on the other.

No, that's precisely the way it will be I think, and personally I'd rather not have it any other way.

We have a chance to make our offering compelling enough for people to want to use it *more than* the proprietary offerings - work on that, and let market forces do their work.. :)

Well.. if you both say so I'll bow to the experts: But that is most certainly not the way I've ever seen a free linux-based system distributed. Well.. short of maybe Android.

MeeGo is free, completely open, and any manufacturer can grab it and make whatever they want from it as far as I understand. I would think it goes completely against the Linux Foundation, and most open source, to say "In order to use this - you must do XYZ with your PDQ".

I'd be .. very surprised to say the least..

I'm not saying I disagree, or that I think it's a bad idea - but I do see trying to tell manufacturers they can't do certain things in a proprietary way if they want to borrow code from MeeGo will actually limit it's adoption, not promote it.

w00t

2010-07-14, 23:30

Few points.

Intel's handset platform is the official platform, it actually works(!!!!!!), and has flashable images. On the N900.. we have to build and compile our own.

Right now, you do, yes. This isn't the end of the line, though. Two things have lead to this being "the state of affairs" for the time being. One, a number of problems on the n900 demanding more attention than image building (wifi totally crapping out, various other issues), two, it is July. Summer in Finland. This means most of Finland is on holiday. ;)

I think that once people are back at their desks, things will start ticking along faster. There's already progress being made on #meego-arm/meego-dev, today, a lot of wifi issues got sorted for instance, and some progress on power management.

Intels UI is used on Netbooks.

A rather similar look and feel is used for the official Handset UX.

Look and feel doesn't really mean a lot, but when you already have one (open) look and feel, it doesn't make a lot of sense to get them to reinvent themselves (delaying the netbook release) - instead, it makes sense to fit in with it and go along with the plan.

The Nokia N900 doesn't even have proper backlight controlling with MeeGo without hacking it.

See points above. (Might also be worth asking on list or IRC what you can do to help get this fixed in an automated way? Many hands..)

w00t

2010-07-14, 23:33

I think you misinterpreted me totally there :P

MeeGo is free, completely open, and any manufacturer can grab it and make whatever they want from it as far as I understand.

This, was exactly what I was saying, is the great thing. Someone can come take MeeGo, butcher it with their own proprietary crap, and it'll sink like a stone because - I sincerely hope - it won't be able to keep pace with working in the open.

Never has there been a better time to show that OSS can shine.

attila77

2010-07-14, 23:35

I've seen, from an end user perspective, more Intel than Nokia in everything MeeGo to-date.

Intel's handset platform is the official platform, it actually works(!!!!!!), and has flashable images. On the N900.. we have to build and compile our own.

Intels UI is used on Netbooks.

A rather similar look and feel is used for the official Handset UX.

In car terms, Intel put a body kit on Moblin and called it a day (really, the netbook MeeGo is just that - Moblin), as opposed to Nokia, which got a Moblin chassis and now needs to fit the engine, make a custom bodywork for it, etc. It's no wonder the Intel part is 'more ready'.

christexaport

2010-07-14, 23:36

Versus.. what? The continuing downward trend toward failure, like now? If Nokia produced Android phones in addition to MeeGo, they would at least be competing and making sure their brand was relevant. SELL THE CUSTOMERS WHAT THEY WANT. Is that really so hard to understand?

This would be a stop gap money grab for Nokia. But luckily for people like me, they don't base their strategy on short term commercial success, but long term stability as well as a philosophy they seem unwilling to extinguish.

Nokia wants to connect people as well as connect people to TECHNOLOGY. Not just some people, or rich people, or people living in democracies with developed infrastructure, but ALL people.

Android alone won't address the massive low economic customers, which are where 98%+ of the next billion customers in wireless will come from. Symbian does that, at price points Android can only dream to mimick. If Nokia adopted Android, it would diminish their commitment to Symbian, since Symbian and Android are direct competitors in the mid to high end segment.

MeeGo will take the lion's share of that high end from Symbian, which will be pushed down market to absorb their large high end featurephone converts at similar price points. MeeGo runtime support and capabilites for developers will blow anything on the market out of the water, assuming WebOS doesn't adopt a similar architecture.

Android, iOS, WP7, and Blackberry OS aren't even close from a developer standpoint in terms of what is possible. It has manufacturer support from heavyweights like Dell, Fujitsu, and many others. It has a chance to dominate the high end and tablet market. Its shared Qt ecosystem with market dominating Symbian makes things that much more attractive to commercial developers eager to compete with Google on a more even playing field.

Both these OSes share core UI and application toolkits, which makes it a formidable ecosystem and a worthy situation to Nokia for massive investment. The short term profits gained and man hours wasted on Android instead of Qt and MeeGo/Symbian are greatly exceeded by the long term profits they stand to make spending that investment just as they have.

No other competitor has even close to the same opportunity. Google can't reach the low end with its thirst for Snapdragons and CPU cycles. Neither can Apple, and I doubt they want to. Microsoft abandoned it wiht its high system requirements. RIM hasn't attracted the high end well...

So what, Nokia should support THREE OSes?!? Of course not. They'll continue to improve Symbian's UI, with a new version coming this winter. Their lead over Android is safe, based on the time it took Apple to obtain its current state. Remember, Symbian has GROWN marketshare.

That is sound business strategy, and if executed well, can be considered a true revolutionary and daring success. My bets are on MeeGo/Qt.

fatalsaint

2010-07-14, 23:38

I think you misinterpreted me totally there :P

This, was exactly what I was saying, is the great thing. Someone can come take MeeGo, butcher it with their own proprietary crap, and it'll sink like a stone because - I sincerely hope - it won't be able to keep pace with working in the open.

Never has there been a better time to show that OSS can shine.

Ok, I somehow am getting the idea you and I are on completely the same page but somehow are crossing wires....

My only comment, originally, was directed at Dan talking about Nokia butchering MeeGo like, in his mind, they've done throughout the past.

I was saying that Yes, that is perfectly possible that Nokia will do so with their edition of their MeeGo phone (keep in mind: Not talking about the Q4 2010 Harmattan phone .. I'm talking future entirely-meego based phone should one ever come from Nokia - we would assume yes at some point..) - but that regardless what proprietary or any parts Nokia adds and wants to hold onto like a child and their blankey.. does not reflect negatively or in anyway hinder upstream, main MeeGo.

fatalsaint

2010-07-14, 23:41

Right now, you do, yes. This isn't the end of the line, though. Two things have lead to this being "the state of affairs" for the time being. One, a number of problems on the n900 demanding more attention than image building (wifi totally crapping out, various other issues), two, it is July. Summer in Finland. This means most of Finland is on holiday. ;)

Well I know it's not the end of the line ;).. I don't expect it to be perfect here.. we're in pre-alpha alpha peek-a-boo stages right now.

But I did expect the N900 to be the most complete, or at least be on par with whatever other platforms they were using, when it was released. I was under the impression (and they still maintain) the N900 is the main ARM development device for MeeGo.. so I was quite surprised to see that it was lacking quite a bit from the AAVA handset from Intel.

In ANY case.. since none of this is related to the thread at hand :D.. the point I was making on this is that Danramos is saying he doesn't expect much from MeeGo because he doesn't expect much from Nokia.

I'm saying what does he expect from Intel? Cuz that's the presence we mostly see (right now, not future) - Now, if he has a specific objection to hating both Intel AND Nokia.. then he can hate on MeeGo too ;).

attila77

2010-07-14, 23:43

My only comment, originally, was directed at Dan talking about Nokia butchering MeeGo like, in his mind, they've done throughout the past.

Well, considering the goals of MeeGo, they're sure as hell making it more and more difficult for themselves to do that. Who knows, maybe it's a good thing, eh ? :)

Benson

2010-07-14, 23:46

Disagree. Android is really not Linux, and certainly not a Linux distro. It's only a much-modified linux kernel supporting a Davlik VM.

It has helped some to increase public awareness that there's a thing called Linux. But not much, since most Android users still don't know Linux is in there at all. Betcha if you asked 10 Android users what Linux is at least 9 would have no clue.

If MeeGo succeeds, it will change that because it really is Linux, as in a real Linux distro.

s/Linux/UNIX/g

fatalsaint

2010-07-14, 23:56

In car terms, Intel put a body kit on Moblin and called it a day (really, the netbook MeeGo is just that - Moblin), as opposed to Nokia, which got a Moblin chassis and now needs to fit the engine, make a custom bodywork for it, etc. It's no wonder the Intel part is 'more ready'.

I.. am absolutely horrid with cars... but you actually made sense here. Maybe I won't be so critical of the N900's apparent lack of support to-date.

Why did we go with their chassis though... (I know, I know.. whole other debate...)

daperl

2010-07-15, 01:04

This, was exactly what I was saying, is the great thing. Someone can come take MeeGo, butcher it with their own proprietary crap, and it'll sink like a stone because - I sincerely hope - it won't be able to keep pace with working in the open.

Never has there been a better time to show that OSS can shine.

I'm with you, my man.

How about a religion analogy? Android is John the Baptist and MeeGo and/or Ubuntu is Jesus. Android will hopefully keep fighting fragmentation and continue to blaze a trail on Cortex A-[89] platforms that will then allow a real GNU/Linux distribution to smoothly slip-in to say a Motorola Droid or Droid X. That's when we'll know that an OSS handset/tablet OS has arrived.

TI OMAP[34] is the Intel/AMD x86

and

Imagination Technologies is the NVIDIA.

And the in-line kernel changes that MeeGo and maybe Ubuntu will bring will support more and more hardware.

The End of the Beginning.

quipper8

2010-07-15, 01:20

I'm with you, my man.

How about a religion analogy? Android is John the Baptist and MeeGo and/or Ubuntu is Jesus. Android will hopefully keep fighting fragmentation and continue to blaze a trail on Cortex A-[89] platforms that will then allow a real GNU/Linux distribution to smoothly slip-in to say a Motorola Droid or Droid X. That's when we'll know that an OSS handset/tablet OS has arrived.

TI OMAP[34] is the Intel/AMD x86

and

Imagination Technologies is the NVIDIA.

And the in-line kernel changes that MeeGo and maybe Ubuntu will bring will support more and more hardware.

The End of the Beginning.

hallelujah, and then you will be able to buy a mobile computer just like you do a desktop or laptop one now, same hardware, different os possibilities. mix and match your processor, screen size, hard keyboard or no, and have your choice of windows, ios, linux, java(android),bada, symbian, whatever. just like now i can buy some dell models off the shelf and install windows, various linux, opensolaris, macosx, whatever.

daperl

2010-07-15, 02:50

I just read that the Droid X bootloader was locked. Does that mean a boot will fail if something such as the kernel-to-be-loaded isn't properly signed?

wmarone

2010-07-15, 03:09

I just read that the Droid X bootloader was locked. Does that mean a boot will fail if something such as the kernel-to-be-loaded isn't properly signed?

Correct. No custom kernels, no custom ROMs.

kureyon

2010-07-15, 03:23

How do you push your platform by shipping devices with the platform you want to capture market share FROM ?

Palm did that when they started selling devices with wince. Didn't stop them from dying though :)

vivainio

2010-07-15, 06:09

Android is John the Baptist and MeeGo and/or Ubuntu is Jesus.

Hope you don't mind me linking to this in my signature (slightly paraphrased for maximum impact ;-).

w00t

2010-07-15, 09:37

Palm did that when they started selling devices with wince. Didn't stop them from dying though :)

To be fair, I'd not exactly call being purchased by HP 'alive'.

A zombie, even if it still produces phones, is still a zombie. ;)

fatalsaint

2010-07-15, 14:21

To be fair, I'd not exactly call being purchased by HP 'alive'.

A zombie, even if it still produces phones, is still a zombie. ;)

Just remember... shoot it in the...faceplate? :p

From what I have seen of WebOS though.. I do like it. Hopefully HP can keep WebOS alive... even if Palm is now zombified.

danramos

2010-07-15, 22:41

I'm not saying positive or negative. Just different. Dan obviously has HUGE daddy Nokia (;)) issues... I was saying that I feel/see more influence from Intel than from anything maemo-like in MeeGo.

Heh.. not so much daddy issues as much as maybe trust and abandonment issues with Nokia. :)

I'm saying what does he expect from Intel? Cuz that's the presence we mostly see (right now, not future) - Now, if he has a specific objection to hating both Intel AND Nokia.. then he can hate on MeeGo too .

I haven't had a lot of exposure to Intel in the way I did with Nokia--but I've seen Intel go both ways. I've seen them work AGAINST open-source sometimes, then work FOR it other times. So, I'm not sure what to think about Intel's involvement.

Laughing Man

2010-07-16, 13:50

Intel does whatever it takes to make a profit (witnessing the AMD-Intel lawsuit battles). So as long as Meego helps them make a profit (by pushing Intel related hardware) then Intel will help.

danramos

2010-07-16, 21:20

Intel does whatever it takes to make a profit (witnessing the AMD-Intel lawsuit battles). So as long as Meego helps them make a profit (by pushing Intel related hardware) then Intel will help.

And THAT is fine by me. THEN, at least, it places the onus on them to compete with a better product--likely that will have been shown to be the more open-source friendlier hardware over the years.

gerbick

2010-07-19, 15:10

I've been thinking about this - I know, most won't care, the others will label it as whatever is the newest word for not thinking like them, or whatever... I'm just thinking aloud - and Nokia really should come out with an Android phone.

Why? Because the build of the Nokia Android phone would invariably be better than most of the ones out there. I just held a Samsung Captivate in my hands today and I kept thinking... what if Nokia released a 4" AMOLED Android phone? It'd have a better camera, better build, they'd not have to worry about OS support, that would fall to Google.

Nokia makes great products; OS support, not so much. A front camera, a similar but better built form... Nokia could have one or two Android devices that set new standards.

Why not? I can see it happening.

cenwesi

2010-07-19, 15:28

i think by this time next year, Nokia will have an Android phone. I am still waiting for a Front Facing Camera, before i switch over to Android. I placed with the Vibrant yesterday and man i am liking Android every day that goes by.

wmarone

2010-07-19, 15:57

what if Nokia released a 4" AMOLED Android phone? It'd have a better camera, better build
It may, but the fundamental issues we've had with Maemo wouldn't go away. Everyone would still be complaining about a lack of post-purchase support, which is where Nokia falls down.

they'd not have to worry about OS support, that would fall to Google.
Many hardware vendors are nervous about just that.

Why not? I can see it happening.
- Google is put in a position of power.
- They want to have some sort of uniqueness in their ecosystem.
- They also want to leverage Qt.

I don't see it happening, especially as long as Google has exclusive control over the OS.

gerbick

2010-07-19, 16:32

It may, but the fundamental issues we've had with Maemo wouldn't go away. Everyone would still be complaining about a lack of post-purchase support, which is where Nokia falls down.

I was talking about Android being alongside their Symbian and MeeGo offerings; not replacing it. I doubt they'd replace MeeGo already - Nokia is fickle, but not that fickle.

- Google is put in a position of power.

Google's going nowhere, Nokia isn't in the same bracket as Google in terms of what they will offer. Nokia loves hardware, Google loves software. Even without Nokia's assistance, Google is already in a position of power; it'll take Microsoft, Yahoo or some yet to be named company to compete with them on those kinds of offerings.

- They want to have some sort of uniqueness in their ecosystem.

So far, I'm not convinced that their uniqueness is something I want to buy into. Sadly, the stock price reflects that more than the whims of the people that like Nokia's uniqueness.

And besides, if they want unique, create their own UI for Android. Worked wonders for HTC.

- They also want to leverage Qt.

Just show how cross-OS viable Qt is... Android port that bad boy.

I don't see it happening, especially as long as Google has exclusive control over the OS.

I don't see it happening either; but they could have a three tiered attack on markets that have forgotten Nokia (North America, Japan) or have been bitten by the Android hype.

I want to make my money back from their gosh darn stock. Steady losing since I purchased it...

quipper8

2010-07-19, 16:45

nokia definitely wants to compete in the mobile services sector(navigation, messaging, sync, etc), not just hardware, so i don't see them being totally OS agnostic enough to use android, which can be heavily dependent on google services without serious customization.

The amount of customization necessary for android to use Qt and integrate nokia services is too steep to forego symbian 4 and meego

wmarone

2010-07-19, 17:05

I was talking about Android being alongside their Symbian and MeeGo offerings; not replacing it. I doubt they'd replace MeeGo already - Nokia is fickle, but not that fickle.
Putting it alongside MeeGo would defeat the purpose of creating MeeGo. Attrition would push users towards the familiar platform, and away from the new one.

Google's going nowhere, Nokia isn't in the same bracket as Google in terms of what they will offer. Nokia loves hardware, Google loves software. Even without Nokia's assistance, Google is already in a position of power; it'll take Microsoft, Yahoo or some yet to be named company to compete with them on those kinds of offerings.
The problem is that right now only Google is in a position to decide the course for Android as a platform. Even if they are not going anywhere any time soon, this lets Google dictate where the platform goes. At least with MeeGo it's tied up with so many involved parties that no one player can determine the course of the whole thing, which I think is Nokia's goal with this. They gain the benefits of pushing even more of the core development outside like with Android, without being under the Google umbrella.

Edit:

It just occurred to me. Nokia doesn't want to use Android for the same reason no one else wanted to use Maemo. It was tied to closely to someone perceived as a competitor. And in the mobile information arena, Nokia definitely sees Google's services as competing.

kryptoniankid17

2010-07-19, 17:27

Heh.. not so much daddy issues as much as maybe trust and abandonment issues with Nokia. :)

I haven't had a lot of exposure to Intel in the way I did with Nokia--but I've seen Intel go both ways. I've seen them work AGAINST open-source sometimes, then work FOR it other times. So, I'm not sure what to think about Intel's involvement.
htc has one of tge biggest reasons I have stsyed away from android. I just dont like their ui layer. Samsung is starting to look more and more like an iphone rip off every day.Then theres samsungs support.

sorry about that. That was towards gerbick.

attila77

2010-07-19, 17:30

Why? Because the build of the Nokia Android phone would invariably be better than most of the ones out there. I just held a Samsung Captivate in my hands today and I kept thinking... what if Nokia released a 4" AMOLED Android phone? It'd have a better camera, better build,

And where do they go from there ? Sure, they might get a good quarter or two, but the whole business strategy falls flat on it’s face the very first moment someone puts out something with a decent build or at a significantly cheaper price. Strategies that depend on others doing it wrong are inherently risky.

they'd not have to worry about OS support, that would fall to Google.

I strongly disagree. Google supports their services, not your hardware. That’s why (not) getting FroYo or another Android build is such a fuss. The only handset Google supports is the Nexus One. Other than that, you are at the mercy of your vendor/carrier, or, if you’re lucky enough to have a popular handset with a bootloader that is not locked down, to crafty hackers.

ysss

2010-07-19, 17:32

If Nokia buys into the Android platform, its stock price will go up. Why? Because it's perceived as a safe option and no one can argue with that. Nokia has the Symbian-Qt-MeeGo strategy going on now, all looking great on (technical) paper but it's actually still a big question mark for most people outside; especially after the last few boners Nokia has pulled out of its pants.

At the very least Nokia can play to its strengths (hardware) and ride Android's hype; it may even learn a thing or two by keeping their enemies close while Symbian and MeeGo are being simmered to perfection.

wmarone

2010-07-19, 17:47

If Nokia buys into the Android platform, its stock price will go up. Why? Because it's perceived as a safe option and no one can argue with that.
It may go up in the short term as they take the safe route, but in the long term they'll devalue their high end.

Nokia has the Symbian-Qt-MeeGo strategy going on now, all looking great on (technical) paper but it's actually still a big question mark for most people outside;
Sure, anything new has question marks. But in the end it's all about adoption and how well Nokia can push it. At the very least, they don't have the forward looking statement that Android vendors have to deal with.

especially after the last few boners Nokia has pulled out of its pants.
Colorful. Very.

At the very least Nokia can play to its strengths (hardware) and ride Android's hype; it may even learn a thing or two by keeping their enemies close while Symbian and MeeGo are being simmered to perfection.
Again, if Nokia releases an Android device it will cannibalize any future non-Android path. They can't go that way and still maintain any sort of independence from Google without a lot more effort.

ysss

2010-07-19, 17:56

It may go up in the short term as they take the safe route, but in the long term they'll devalue their high end.

You're assuming that everything will go 'brilliantly right' at this point for Symbian and MeeGo. Even if they go 'just alright', they have a very tough uphill battle against 3-4 other platforms with a headstart. (Considering S^4 is a reboot).

Sure, anything new has question marks. But in the end it's all about adoption and how well Nokia can push it. At the very least, they don't have the forward looking statement that Android vendors have to deal with.

Let's put a bit more details in that sentence to narrow down the prediction:

"Sure, anything new from Nokia in the smartphone segment..."

That does spin it in a different way, doesn't it? They haven't been shining in that particular area...

Again, if Nokia releases an Android device it will cannibalize any future non-Android path. They can't go that way and still maintain any sort of independence from Google without a lot more effort.

Or, it can be Nokia's lifejacket if their current plan goes down in flame.

vivainio

2010-07-19, 18:05

Imagine a future where Android was the only mobile Linux around (on phones, tablets, netbook, ...). Imagine that it marginalized Apple completely and emerged as the only standard "high end" mobile operating system.

If you are a Linux guy, there is a chance that you wouldn't like this at all. It would be a pyrrhic victory; Linux won, but there is nothing Linux-at-large (desktop, server...) would gain from this, apart from perhaps a few drivers. Unless we start seeing Android seeping to desktop space, so that we could rm -rf everything the Linux userspace community (GNU, X, others) has achieved through these ~20 years and replace it with a Java sandbox written by a company Google bought.

Laughing Man

2010-07-19, 18:07

It's not much of a lifejacket if it has holes in it (customer support).

kryptoniankid17

2010-07-19, 18:27

OVI CONTAcTS ON THE N8

http://mynokiablog.com/2010/07/16/video-showing-off-social-networking-on-nokia-n8/

I think nokia is really taking things seriosily. I think the next yearwill be really interesting.

gerbick

2010-07-19, 18:32

Putting it alongside MeeGo would defeat the purpose of creating MeeGo. Attrition would push users towards the familiar platform, and away from the new one.

I agree/disagree. If I were to go by what level of corporate support currently exists on Maemo 5, then I'd say it would mean more corporate support for a Nokia phone than already exists on Maemo. And after the fiascos surrounding Ovi purchases, whatnot... you could always point to a Nokia phone with a tried, true/proven app store that actually works as people would think. Simply put, if people were going to buy an Android phone, why not let it be a Nokia phone.

MeeGo does not have that level of visibility as Android right now. I have my doubts that Ovi will get things right in the next 4 months or so.

Where I agree; it could create confusion. But Symbian on the N8, and the leaked version of the N9 looking pretty damn similar is confusing enough. And the move to push Symbian from the N-series into other series, and the fact that we've seen the N97, then N900 then N9... erm. Confusion for the casual person is already possible.

MeeGo isn't familiar to anybody at this moment. Symbian^4 seems to be a new direction too.

The problem is that right now only Google is in a position to decide the course for Android as a platform.

Maemo was the same. Only MeeGo is different in this aspect. It wasn't a problem then that only Nokia was the driving force behind Maemo - well Nokia and this community - so why would it be a problem if it were another company?

And please don't say that "Google is evil" stuff. Evil would be gas chambers, slavery and forcing people to listen to zydeco on repeat.

Even if they are not going anywhere any time soon, this lets Google dictate where the platform goes.

See above.

At least with MeeGo it's tied up with so many involved parties that no one player can determine the course of the whole thing, which I think is Nokia's goal with this.

Design by committee has always been a fear of mine... takes longer for effective things to happen, small things can fracture a community - file formats or how to install versus the alternatives.

They gain the benefits of pushing even more of the core development outside like with Android, without being under the Google umbrella.

Different umbrellas, same effect to me. But I see what you're saying though...

It just occurred to me. Nokia doesn't want to use Android for the same reason no one else wanted to use Maemo.

Not trying to start a fight... but I always suspected that Nokia just didn't license it to anybody.

dana.s

2010-07-19, 18:39

Is there a possibility for google use MeeGo in future?

Laughing Man

2010-07-19, 18:46

Is there a possibility for google use MeeGo in future?

I think if Google wants to, they could.

The question is, why would they?

gerbick

2010-07-19, 19:09

Is there a possibility for google use MeeGo in future?

This indirectly leads to my real question. If Nokia won't use Android - as stated before in order to preserve their "unique" ecosystem and/or environment - then why would any manufacturer use MeeGo?

rainmaster

2010-07-19, 19:16

is it not better to have more competion(iOS, android,meego,bada,symbian..etc)?....and whats wrong with not being most popular.... coming in 3rd or 4th?

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

should apple drop osX in favour of windows xp?
the majority has a tendency to be wrong....
I would rather stick with the minority

quipper8

2010-07-19, 19:23

This indirectly leads to my real question. If Nokia won't use Android - as stated before in order to preserve their "unique" ecosystem and/or environment - then why would any manufacturer use MeeGo?

Check the "How will meego pull it off" thread. You were there, maybe you don't remember the discussion or maybe you just want to ask the same questions again since it is kind of provocative...

wmarone

2010-07-19, 19:23

Maemo was the same. Only MeeGo is different in this aspect. It wasn't a problem then that only Nokia was the driving force behind Maemo - well Nokia and this community - so why would it be a problem if it were another company?
It's a problem for other companies, not quite as much for the end user. But the way MeeGo promises to go is much more open for both companies involved and end users, as everyone gets a chance to put in their two bits (good or bad) and overall the whole ecosystem benefits.

And please don't say that "Google is evil" stuff. Evil would be gas chambers, slavery and forcing people to listen to zydeco on repeat.
It has nothing to do with Google being "evil" and everything to do with what they are as a company. Google bought Android and opened it for the very reasons we see today: it gave them a foothold in a market they could very well have been locked out of. And it ended up giving them a position of power at a level I'd prefer be neutral.

Design by committee has always been a fear of mine... takes longer for effective things to happen, small things can fracture a community - file formats or how to install versus the alternatives.
Which is why you need a core team of decision makers who can take in the external input and make a hard decision. The kernel itself is effectively "design by committee" but makes huge strides each release, and is where I would like MeeGo to head.

tissot

2010-07-19, 19:28

This indirectly leads to my real question. If Nokia won't use Android - as stated before in order to preserve their "unique" ecosystem and/or environment - then why would any manufacturer use MeeGo?

Thought this is different to Symbian in a sense that there is another big company behind this all and they got quite a different mindset for MeeGo than Nokia that IMO makes it more welcoming.

That said i'm very sceptical in the handset space of any big manufacturer going mainly for MeeGo other than Nokia. LG might make something to MeeGo but as a brand i don't think they got too much to offer. MeeGo could offer right place for some new manufacturers, but lets not even go there now.

There is some real interest on tablet and netbooks where we already got other manufacturers that are truly going to make hardware for MeeGo.

gerbick

2010-07-19, 21:49

Check the "How will meego pull it off" thread. You were there, maybe you don't remember the discussion or maybe you just want to ask the same questions again since it is kind of provocative...

I remember that thread well. I don't recall receiving much of a response that settled my curiosity. Beside, in this thread, conversation seems to be more free-flowing than there... just my opinion.

Regardless, there's nothing more to my inquiry than curiosity. Nothing more, nothing less. And definitely nothing provocative.

Some people just are more vocal in much more interesting ways than others... I enjoy this thread (and that one too).

wmarone

2010-07-20, 00:39

If Nokia won't use Android - as stated before in order to preserve their "unique" ecosystem and/or environment - then why would any manufacturer use MeeGo?

Because MeeGo is effectively a neutral party. It is not controlled solely by a single entity that has a vested interest in displacing your services in favor of theirs, and does not create a dependency on an entity that might choose (however unlikely) to cease development at some point in the future.

That's huge from a risk mitigation and forward looking standpoint. It's the very same thing drawing companies to the Linux kernel.

If you want vendors that provide MeeGo alongside Android, look at any handset vendor currently offering Android. They want market but, like Samsung and Motorola, they want to provide services as well (since hardware isn't really that special.)

That said, I don't see myself buying Motorola anything if their current attitude towards the Droid X is any indication. :mad:

Now, what does this mean for end-users? Very little, just like it does now. So long as the user experience delivered on handsets is good and there is a critical mass of both "App Store" developers and end-users, it'll grow. The only things that are up in the air right now are if uptake will happen (if you build it, they will come) and if those who do pick it up will force us to root/jailbreak our device or let us install a "rootsh" package and be done with it.

ivnvir

2010-07-20, 00:56

Android is not concise IMO, I do preffer Maemo... only thing Android is better is that it's almost Java to programming, it has better style in UI (I mean only colors and shapes, I preffer Maemo's UI better in terms of organizations and stuff) and it has more apps/users.

gerbick

2010-07-20, 02:10

Because MeeGo is effectively a neutral party. It is not controlled solely by a single entity that has a vested interest in displacing your services in favor of theirs, and does not create a dependency on an entity that might choose (however unlikely) to cease development at some point in the future.

I personally buy into the neutrality of MeeGo. Will the masses?

That's huge from a risk mitigation and forward looking standpoint. It's the very same thing drawing companies to the Linux kernel.

I don't see it as much as forward thinking as much as a natural progression given how badly Maemo was handled when it should have been handled differently and better. Nokia dragged it down.

If you want vendors that provide MeeGo alongside Android, look at any handset vendor currently offering Android. They want market but, like Samsung and Motorola, they want to provide services as well (since hardware isn't really that special.)

And that's why I dislike Nokia's lust for newer, faster hardware constantly. Hardware normally isn't that special - it shouldn't be. It's just the vessel that brings the experience; enhance it via services and make those a part of our life. Sure, a fast CPU is needed, but without the proper OS, without the proper services... you're just sitting on top of a really fast brick.

That said, I don't see myself buying Motorola anything if their current attitude towards the Droid X is any indication.

Locked down kernel? Or the whole eFuse thing? I thought all OMAP3 processors (SOC) came with that? If so... it's in the N900 too. Just not used.

I just don't see how MeeGo will attract folks. Samsung went that route because of Bada not being ready yet. Motorola went that route because... well, they were basically dead in the water. LG is going that way because they really don't have an OS. So what am I missing? I don't see who would want MeeGo outside of Nokia and LG on a handset.

But on a tablet... total different story.

ste-phan

2010-07-20, 02:11

Nokia has proven with Maemo they know how to create a great ergonomical UI.
The UI has an unseen logic to it.
Smooth to the brain.

To an extent I wouldn't care if Nokia was to apply the Maemo user interface over Android to unleash the app store for the I need a new app every day crowd.

-IF it wasn't for Googles goals of "kinda in your face mobile advertisement" (Jonathan R, Google some manager: http://seekingalpha.com/article/214786-google-inc-q2-2010-earnings-call-transcript?part=qanda )
-IF it wasn't that we do not need and want Google monitoring software on our pocket computer (that is hand holding for dumb smart phone users that don't know what is, let alone ever read an EULA)
http://gizmodo.com/5572510/google-remotely-removes-apps-from-android-phones-for-security-reasons

That said , Nokia might be working to give Meamo an Android paint because of their partner Intel telling them to bet on a proven concept that works to get quick cash today.
Our main concern should be telling Nokia not to immitate Android.

As Google says it: the most popular software is the browser. Am I alone not to need their "extra's" ?

siperkin

2010-07-20, 03:39

wmarone

2010-07-20, 05:26

Will the masses?
Well, if Nokia can deliver an experience that equals or surpasses Android, then it's likely. If even one other handset vendor picks up on it, then who knows.

I don't see it as much as forward thinking as much as a natural progression given how badly Maemo was handled when it should have been handled differently and better. Nokia dragged it down.
True. But I was speaking of that as an advantage, possibly one that draws in other handset vendors.

And that's why I dislike Nokia's lust for newer, faster hardware constantly.
That's just the way of the industry. We went from ARMv6 to ARMv7 all over in less than a year.

Locked down kernel? Or the whole eFuse thing? I thought all OMAP3 processors (SOC) came with that? If so... it's in the N900 too. Just not used.
Locked down kernel. If anything using eFuse to disable the phone is simply a sad use of what appears to be an otherwise interesting technology.

I just don't see how MeeGo will attract folks. Samsung went that route because of Bada not being ready yet.
Bada would simply have further segmented the market, and it's not ideal for a high end handset. It'll be competing with S60 almost exclusively.

Motorola went that route because... well, they were basically dead in the water. LG is going that way because they really don't have an OS. So what am I missing? I don't see who would want MeeGo outside of Nokia and LG on a handset.
Anyone who wants an OS that is backed by a neutral party. On top of that, internally developing any OS is expensive and puts you way beyond your scope.

BatPenguin

2010-07-20, 07:04

Anyone who wants an OS that is backed by a neutral party. On top of that, internally developing any OS is expensive and puts you way beyond your scope.

I just don't see how anybody can really claim that Meego is backed by a "neutral party". It's backed by Nokia and Intel, what is so neutral about that? Meego is Nokia and Intel's baby, Android is Google's. Yes, yes, Linux Foundation this and that -- is the Linux foundation employing the developers any more than the Open Handset Allience is for Android? Imagining Meego as some champion of freedom is just silly nonsense. It's all about the companies behind the associations, those who employ the developers. Maybe you prefer Nokia to Google but it's hardly "neutral".

Also, OPK is apparently finally on his way out of Nokia (WSJ reported, just saw the news on Finnish sites, google yourself), and Nokia has been interviewing at least some American CEOs for the job. If they pick an American for the job and decide to concentrate on the US market, which that would seem to imply, it's not too far-fetched to see Android phones from Nokia sometime pretty soon or other very large re-arrangements, maybe a Windows phone with Microsoft. Just stick the Ovi stuff on Android/Windows and roll with it while desperately trying to build up Symbian4/Meego, if they decide to keep both. A new CEO simply cannot avoid making big changes. Since S60 is already on its way down to featurephones it doesn't really leave a lot of options for the short-term. Meego's not ready for phones and even if they manage to push out another beta device before the end of the year, it probably won't really be ready for challenging the competition much sooner than Symbian4.

danramos

2010-07-20, 09:49

I think that Nokia should use the Android wave to boost the profile of Meego. Start a rumour of a handset with Android then launch it with Meego, assuming its a fully polished version, and isn't going to backfire.

Ah yes.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo.

Yeah, I don't think that would go over very well at all. Especially when they go to look at what it can do and whether you can find the same type of useful apps (Yelp, Facebook, Sky Maps, Google Goggles, Google Navigation, etc.)

I mean.. heh.. Ovi Maps isn't going to knock their socks off.

gerbick

2010-07-20, 12:42

I just wanted to take the time to say a very public thanks to wmarone for sharing his views in a very clear, open manner with me. I don't think we oppose each other as much as we just have different views and you've always spoken your side without having to dive into "you're a troll" or other silly rhetoric - which is rather easy to fall into.

attila77

2010-07-20, 13:04

I just don't see how anybody can really claim that Meego is backed by a "neutral party". It's backed by Nokia and Intel, what is so neutral about that? Meego is Nokia and Intel's baby, Android is Google's. Yes, yes, Linux Foundation this and that -- is the Linux foundation employing the developers any more than the Open Handset Allience is for Android? Imagining Meego as some champion of freedom is just silly nonsense. It's all about the companies behind the associations, those who employ the developers. Maybe you prefer Nokia to Google but it's hardly "neutral".

Obviously SOMEONE has to back it, and it's Nokia's and Intel's job to kickstart. The fully open phase can start only once the foundations are set up and people see something enticing, and then they can really embark on infiltrating the MeeGo pyramid. That's when it will, at least in theory, become truly neutral and set off to conquer the world. The Linux Foundation and all that stuff is there to minimize the fears of rug-pulling - Google is way more instrumental in Android/OHA. That's the idea, anyway, we'll see how things turn out :)

smoku

2010-07-20, 13:10

smoku

2010-07-20, 13:14

Laughing Man

2010-07-20, 13:27

I don't think your even required to use Google's services. I think the problem with Cyanogen was they were re-destributing ROMS with Google's services already baked in.

ColonelKilkenny

2010-07-20, 13:33

Maybe you prefer Nokia to Google but it's hardly "neutral".

It is as neutral as it can be. No code allowed unless it's upstream (and upstream isn't controlled by Nokia or Intel) etc.

... it's not too far-fetched to see Android phones from Nokia sometime pretty soon or other very large re-arrangements, maybe a Windows phone with Microsoft. Just stick the Ovi stuff on Android/Windows and roll with it while desperately trying to build up Symbian4/Meego, if they decide to keep both. A new CEO simply cannot avoid making big changes. Since S60 is already on its way down to featurephones it doesn't really leave a lot of options for the short-term. Meego's not ready for phones and even if they manage to push out another beta device before the end of the year, it probably won't really be ready for challenging the competition much sooner than Symbian4.

Choosing a new CEO, switching to Android, developing apps that run on Dalvik, hiring / training the people to do the actual coding (or transferring Qt to Android), developing new phones from the scratch (I doubt they can just decide to switch OS on a work-in-progress phone...), train all QA, support, sales, ... , marketing people for the new platform, etc. etc. etc. before Symbian 4 is ready for devices? :rolleyes:

If Nokia decides now to produce one flagship Android device it's probably released about the same time Symbian^7 is ready or something like that :D

+ Switching to Android now would be a total and utter sign of total failure. Android train has already left the station and Nokia didn't want to ride it.

And we all know that MeeGo will be much more awesome than Android :p

smoku

2010-07-20, 13:35

I don't think your even required to use Google's services. I think the problem with Cyanogen was they were re-destributing ROMS with Google's services already baked in.

I'm talking about private code branches.
I guess NITdroid folks could tel you some stories about porting Android to new hardware without access to those.

superg05

2010-07-29, 01:10

can android be used without a pointing device? (read: touchscreen)

yes first demo phone had no touch screen

railroadmaster

2010-07-29, 01:25

Well essentially whats keeping Nokia from adopting Android is the fact that Nokia wouldn't be able to make money form the software of the devices. On Symbian many people use Nokia services such as ovi store, ovi mail, Ovi Maps, Nokia music and other services. On Android services Nokia makes money from such as ovi Store and Nokia music Nokia would be unable to make from because Google makes money from Android Market, also includes Google Maps with ovi maps, and Amazon mp3's come preloaded. Also much money has been invested into developing MeeGo. So it is really a matter of Nokia wanting to make money from software services.

superg05

2010-07-29, 01:27

Agreed.

Disagree. Android is really not Linux, and certainly not a Linux distro. It's only a much-modified linux kernel supporting a Davlik VM.

It has helped some to increase public awareness that there's a thing called Linux. But not much, since most Android users still don't know Linux is in there at all. Betcha if you asked 10 Android users what Linux is at least 9 would have no clue.

If MeeGo succeeds, it will change that because it really is Linux, as in a real Linux distro.
read this and the comments then get back to me
http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/2010/02/happy-camper.html

wmarone

2010-07-29, 01:33

read this and the comments then get back to me
http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/2010/02/happy-camper.html

Eh, Torvalds likes it. So what.

I prefer not being kept in a nice, shiny Java sandbox away from the hardware I own. I mean, it's GREAT if you're Google, because then you have total control over the direction the platform takes.

Laughing Man

2010-07-29, 01:36

read this and the comments then get back to me
http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/2010/02/happy-camper.html

TiVo is+Linux in that case.

Connotation vs dennotation.

superg05

2010-07-29, 01:39

Well tbh a standard Linux distro is loaded with quality productivity applications, not so much fart apps and 3d games which the masses somehow seem to like. Debian has around 20k applications in the repositories.

thats nice but unless your gonna port them all your argument is void and android has 70,000 so......

superg05

2010-07-29, 01:41

can android run easy debian? if so I really don't care of they go with android.

its can run Debian since the g1 years

railroadmaster

2010-07-29, 01:45

Eh, Torvalds likes it. So what.

I prefer not being kept in a nice, shiny Java sandbox away from the hardware I own. I mean, it's GREAT if you're Google, because then you have total control over the direction the platform takes.
I think it is time Nokia jumps on the Android bandwagon. Java is a very common tool used for developing mobile applications that is why it is used. Besides while Android does have its limitations it is more open the Symbian, iOs, Windows Phone 7, and Bada os. Besides just because Android isn't full Linux doesn't mean it isn't open. Linux isn't the be all end all of openness. What has crippled Android isn't programing (80,000 apps in Android appstore) but rather manufacturers and carriers imposing restrictions trying to make the platform closed and trying prevent people from uninstalling manufacturer skins and carrier crapware. Also rooting become harder example Motorola Droid x has a locked bootloader and Samsung Captivate prevents sideloading of nonmarket Android apps. So What Google would need to do is try to stop carriers and manufacturers from crippling the platform but that would be almost impossible.