View Full Version : Windows phone 7 has gone gold: The meego parallel
Odd_gunnic
2010-09-01, 23:48
Although this is not a direct parallel, seeing as how Microsoft was working on WP7 prior to announcement, it will be interesting to see which OS will be more stable upon release.
Depends on your definition of stable. Because of python desktop widgets bug (a WONTFIX), I get daily (manual) reboots or horrible performance. And it's not a one-item list.
Nonetheless, I am really curious as to what the phone feels like. Unfortunately no upgrade for me until they get their multitasking skewed views back straight.
Well, a phone with an IE7 as a default browser on it may be the stablest in the universe, but it is still IE7 :)
techngro
2010-09-02, 05:58
Isn't the browser on WP7 IE8? I heard it's pretty good too.
No, its IE7 plus IE8's javascript engine minus everything of use except QuerySelectorAll... They even removed the native JSON object from it...
IE7 was never good, it doesn't even go anywhere near that word. :)
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ff462082%28v=VS.92%29.aspx
IE8 is not particualry good either.. i do not know if it's the browser or the OS win7 that is to blame.. but it have had a lot of problems + is very sluggy.
acvetkov
2010-09-02, 07:03
Why do we even compare M$ with Maemo/Meego (Linux)???
M$ - Games
Linux - everything else
Don`t get me wrong am aware that linux can handle heavy games way better, but its a fact that there are almost no games for linux.
One question. Is registry still there? :)
Hmm.. I find IE8 more faster than firefox. In fact the page rendering on firefox is still far behind than IE8.
Regarding the MS/Linux war.. seriously by now I think one should realize that if you have hung around with linux for eternity then you are never going to like Windows and vice versa for Windows fanboys.
I haven't had problems using Windows at all.
To each it's own.
The sheer amount of testing that went into the release is pretty staggering.
10,000 devices, over a half million hours of active self-hosting use, over three and a half million hours of stress test passes, and eight and a half million hours of fully automated test passes. We've had thousands of independent software vendors and early adopters testing our software and giving us great feedback.
I'll wait to hear the Silverlight, Flash and Opera/Fennec announcements before I make a movement towards the platform.
The whole snobbery about the browser is... well, have at it.
The only thing stable about MS stuff is the huge amount of bugs and crashes you can expect.
Yet another shovelful of plain, hairbrained trolling.
You all are free to run Firefox, Opera of whatever you want. Could you at least troll around facts?
It amazes me how people think registry is evil without reading up on it.
How people think Linux can "handle" heavy gaming but nobody develops for it, in spite of the fact that every console, OS, platform and combo has good gaming except Linux. But it's not us, it's them.
The first step towards healing is ending denial.
It amazes me how people think registry is evil without reading up on it.
Empirical evidence since 1995 strongly points to that conclusion.
Still, I must admit, I haven't seen a registry problem in about 10 years. It strangely coincides with the time I stopped using MS products for anything important. Maybe the two things are somehow related, but I couldn't tell, since correlation doesn't imply causation.
Seriously though, the idea behind it is all good intentions, it's just the implementation and subsequent usage by 3rd party applications that's gone bad.
Microsoft has upped their game in the recent years with W7, xbox 360, zune etc. I expect nothing but greatness from their phones.
On top of that I saw them test it on engadget and it looks really really well polished... that's more than what can be said about maemo.
As a long time user, power user and admin, I disagree by pointing the following:
* In 1995, did you use the "home" OS, like W95, 98, ME? Or the pro versions (Windows NT)? Because 9x is and was a joke, minimal pricing and meant for a home learning experience. Couldn't stay upright left alone. It matters, since that would be like using Tiny Linux to point out problems with Suse Enterprise.
* Registry is basically a large, upgraded config file and by nature has the same issues all settting systems do. Write trash in it, it will die. Has traded plain text (manual recovery) to indexed, structured storage (automatic recovery). However, it's been doubled by Last Known Good, tripled by Restore Points sine at least NT and 2002, respectively.
* Registry is always cached in RAM. Thus, vulnerable to memory errors and, coupled with the user's incessant need to reboot manually, saved onto disk bypassing LKG.
Finally, we have 90 percent os users. That means rougly 90 percent of uninstructed people, also, same for idiots.
Imagine how Linux stability would look if 80 percent of users would run as root and copy-pasting stuff they see in banners from Google searches.
I know the chances to ever get this straightened out are slim to none, but surely you can relate to this:
When comparing OSs, compare well managed versions on both sides. I don't compare Linux to Windows based on what Linux does FOR ME because I suck at it. And as non pros, most of you do at Windows.
I ask how thing should work, why can't you?
Juise-, this isn't aimed at you, it's a generic rant.
maxximuscool
2010-09-03, 11:51
I don't give a damn if it is WinMo7 or MeeGo or Bada, IOS4 whatever!! As long they made a good device with lots of good applications to use then they are all the same.
So, you had trouble with Windows in 1995. I had trouble with Linux in 1997 and MacOS in 2001. I guess that means we have to put our trust in OS/2, cause clearly the evidence is overwhelming against the alternatives.
If you haven't used Windows as a main OS since 1995, you should be ashamed you even have an opinion on Windows a la 2010. That's carrying a lot of hatered.
Windows 7 is a damned good OS[1]. Windows is better in some ways, Linux is better in other ways[2]. Disagree with the first statement as much as you like, but anyone who disagrees on the last statement, is officially unable to make an objective evaluation on the subject what so ever.
It is impossible to say if Windows 7 Phone is good or not even based on the newest version of desktop Windows. It's hardly even related. I doubt it will be any good, because Microsoft has been trying too hard to the Iphone, so they will be competing on the wrong terms. But that sure as Murphy doesn't mean having a registry makes it bad.
Odd_gunnic
2010-09-03, 13:23
So android has google maps and WP7 will have bing maps. Is there a general mapping system for meego devices that are not Nokia?
Juise-, this isn't aimed at you, it's a generic rant.
Respectfully noted.
* In 1995, did you use the "home" OS, like W95, 98, ME?
Sadly, yes. Even if I hadn't, I was still the kid who was called in to fix things when PCs equipped with these "operating systems" had problems. Re-installing was sort of fun at first, but the joke gets old when repeated enough. And anyway, it's the kind of joke where someone chops my leg off with an axe and has a good laugh about it. Dismissing it as "oh theyre just being boys" is hardly an excuse.
If you haven't used Windows as a main OS since 1995, you should be ashamed you even have an opinion on Windows a la 2010. That's carrying a lot of hatered.
Hatred is indeed what I felt first, however that's gone long since. What's left is distrust and disappointment.
And, I have tried going back to Windows every once in a while. (I admit though I haven't tried 7 yet). Every time I try, I feel sad and disappointed (not the least because I'm usually forced to pay for the license to get the hardware I want). XP was/is ok, but it's starting to get old already. Vista was/is ok, it's just too slow, no matter what I do with it. I got better things to do than to wait my HD led turn off.
I ask how thing should work, why can't you?
Well I like telling how things should be in my opinion. :cool:
ndi, you actually nailed a lot of reasons why I think the registry, as it exists today, has gone bad. I'll add some more.
* Using registry to store preferences makes moving settings of some application from one PC to other a pain.
* Using registry to store preferences makes saving a version of settings of some application, and restoring them later, annoying.
* Using registry to store preferences gives an application enough rope to hang itself so properly, that advanced registry surgeon skills are necessary to get it running again.
As I said, it's not bad at idea level. For Win Phone 7, it might actually work as they have no legacy apps to support.
However, I think that currently on MS desktop OSs, it is just too complicated and too easily broken, for the amount of goodness it brings. Sadly, due to all the application legacy, many of the issues will be unfixable in the foreseeable future.
For some reason, I see nothing wrong with good old plain text config files, for application specific settings. They're robust, simple, and easily fixed when things go wrong. For OS settings, maybe some centralized DB is necessary, to allow the applications to access it in controlled manner.
But, IMHO the biggest fail with registry, is the fact that it's the system and user configurations mixed together. It's just too hard to tell things apart after they've taken the blender round together.
I shall end my thread de-railing efforts now, as I'm actually interested to see quality discussion on the topic at hand.
* Using registry to store preferences makes moving settings of some application from one PC to other a pain.
Such a lovely point you make. This is exactly what I was talking about - being unaware of options by not being a native. We have since learned to live off the land:
* There is an app in your start menu ever since XP or so that exports all settings to the network, an USB stick or disk. You can use that to import back everything after reinstall.
* Once you understand structure of registry, it's easy to do by hand. For example, I use Delphi which has a billion settings. Here's what I do:
a) Open regedit and navigate to HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Borland.
HKEY_CURRENT_USER is a hive that is loaded from your profile at logon, while LOCAL_MACHINE is common to all and is loaded on boot. So, basically, common and user. Or, /urs and /home if you like.
All installed programs must use /Software by regulations. Then Company name, the program name, then ideally version or so. Thus,
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Borland
That means my settings from Borland. The hive includes Delphi, C Builder, etc. E.g. I have HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Borland\Delphi for Borland Delphi.
Right click or choose File > Export. Type a name and path and a text-only version will be dumped at your location. To import, simply choose import or double-click the text file.
This isn't all. Text files have a defined syntax, so not only you can merge data, you can delete by adding a minus in front of the key. Keys and imported top to bottom, so it's possible to have a registry key be deleted then imported as is, as well as merged.
All data is text encoded and DBCS.
Basically, you can decompile any branch into a config file and back. Added bonus is registry have per-entity (value, key, etc) permissions.
But hey, what about admins you say? Well, regedit supports CLI, even if GUI app (they all do) so to export it in a script, do:
regedit.exe /e Delphi.reg HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Borland
And presto. Setting dump. Import is easy. Add /s (silent) for a quick merger. Also, do mash them together, either use a text editor or concatenate via COPY (cp) command.
And yes, you can dump-import the whole software key forward and back. Also, there are tools to recover packed versions of the registry. Regedt32 (advanced version of regedit) as well as 3rd party tools like some I wrote myself has a Load Hive option, that mounts a file on disk onto a branch, much like you mount a CD drive in a folder (we have that too).
So you can get the old file from your old PC you recovered via tools and Load Hive to a key of your choosing. This becomes
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\ImportedStuff\SOFTWARE\Borland
From there, export, replace, import, lather, rinse repeat.
Not difficult if you know the waters.
* Using registry to store preferences makes saving a version of settings of some application, and restoring them later, annoying.
See above point. Want to test out WinZip settings?
regedit /e winzip1.0.reg HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\WinZip
If you want to delete they key instead of merging, add another enpty key with a minus in front of it before:
REGEDIT 5.0
[-HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\WinZip]
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\WinZip]
name="Jim"
Simple.
* Using registry to store preferences gives an application enough rope to hang itself so properly, that advanced registry surgeon skills are necessary to get it running again.
There is nothing complex about registry once you know how to use it. In fact, API used to work with INI files are mapped so you can switch from INI to registry and back with only a path change (in case you saw an app that allows you to do both). So, it can be used as an INI, which is, basically, a config file. Your key in the registry IS a config file, except it allows structured storage of sorts.
That is, you can use SOFTWARE\Juise-\MyStuff\Address\IP and Address\Port instead of IPAddress= and IPPort=.
Save for that, it's the same. If you strangle yourself in the registry you probably would have in a config, ini or any other saving system.
However, I think that currently on MS desktop OSs, it is just too complicated and too easily broken, for the amount of goodness it brings. Sadly, due to all the application legacy, many of the issues will be unfixable in the foreseeable future.
What issues, to be exact? User or developer poor understanding of the system doesn't make it a bad system. It's simply the price we pay for bringing development to all.
For some reason, I see nothing wrong with good old plain text config files, for application specific settings. They're robust, simple, and easily fixed when things go wrong. For OS settings, maybe some centralized DB is necessary, to allow the applications to access it in controlled manner.
Like I said, they're equivalent, one command line away. Plus, you are still free to use config files or ini files. Registry isn't mandatory. it's just fast, convenient, and PATH INDEPENDENT which is a good advantage to have when you don't have a common-root file system and can have several packages with the same name.
We don't have repos, I can have a million apps called "notepad" from several companies.
But, IMHO the biggest fail with registry, is the fact that it's the system and user configurations mixed together. It's just too hard to tell things apart after they've taken the blender round together.
They're not. Again I say, familiarity is key. All system settings are stored in their respective paths, and not knowing which is confusing.
Much like me not knowing the difference between /var/log and /bin, which is way, way obvious to you. One makes you cringe at the thought of rm, the other you rm on a daily bases.
Same with the registry. Each component has its path, and, because apps and OS are integrated in so many points, you can't separate them. But, e.g., things that run as programs reside in software, like everyone else because they ARE apps.
Explorer in \Software\Microsoft\Explorer (as per specs), internet explorer the same, etc. No biggie.
As for "system" stuff, like services, TCP stack, etc, they are all in LOCAL_MACHINE in their respective keys.
I shall end my thread de-railing efforts now, as I'm actually interested to see quality discussion on the topic at hand.
It would be interesting. Not much content thus far, but, hey, you never know :)
Enough OT for me, as well.
chowdahhead
2010-09-12, 03:40
You have to really wonder (http://technolog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/09/10/5087329-zombies-hearses-and-monster-trucks-mark-windows-phone-7-celebration?ocid=twitter) if Microsoft is taking this seriously (http://techcrunch.com/2010/09/10/windows-phone-7-funeral/). WP7 is looking to be less feature complete than Fremantle at launch, with no clear niche in the market. Microsoft hasn't given any indication that they have a viable long-term strategy for mobile--except to throw piles of cash at the problem. In contrast, I think Meego faces a different issue. Despite its technical merits, Nokia's reluctance to deploy Meego on lower end devices will limit its marketshare. If Nokia believes that Meego is their future, then they should ship every device possible preloaded with it, making it ubiquitous and synonymous with the Nokia brand. Nobody knew what Android was when the G1 launched, but Android has now become one of the primary features that people look for when shopping for a phone.
We have since learned to live off the land:
... lots of complicated steps ...
Simple.
Contrast with the *nix way - practically all programs store your personal settings in a single text file (human readable), or a series of text files in a subdirectory, in your home directory. To transfer your settings to a new system you simply copy your entire home directory (or if you want to be more selective, the individual config files/directories). Ditto for the system settings in /etc.
I love holy wars.
Popcorn anyone? :D
I'll have to disappoint you about that war thing. Holy wars are based on people believing theirs is the only or best way. I am not one of them. I will not try to convert anyone to my ways (we're too many already) nor am I blind enough to not know that the shortest path is the known path.
I've always hated the little typical prick that goes on in a thread with a legitimate problem and say "I have a solution for you! Install <another type of OS>". I'm not about to become one.
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