View Full Version : Maemo Advocacy
Just so you all know: I have promised in the past to elevate your concerns (and have when/where I could). I have been presented the opportunity to get those concerns into a very visible place... and took advantage of it. ;)
Now, I did so at a very high level, ie, pointing out general shortcomings (such as with customer service) rather than harping on specifics that belong in, say, bugzilla. And while I can't guarantee any results, especially soon, I thought some of you would like to know the effort was being made and that your valid concerns are not merely dissipating into vapor.
I remain cautiously hopeful.
Ok, this is a little thing, but bring back the hard cover.
My N800 is not as useful as my 770 simply becasue I am not as comforable just sticking it my back pocket or throwing it in my bag. The auto-ejecting soft cover was a huge mistake!
Thanks a lot for that, Tex. I for one admire and appreciate your dedication -- and unfortunately I believe it is sorely needed at this time.
I'm sure I'm not the only "old-timer" who's been slowly realizing this over the past few weeks/couple o' months : nothing much is happening over here these days. The volume of daily posts may look healthy, but it's really a bubble : lots of newbie questions by new users, ancient threads resurrected by same, a third stupid flame war in one month (!), but not much really new, unusual or interesting (umpteenth promise of a SIP client RSN, anyone ? :-).
And wait - it's even worse over on the maemo lists, from where the insider information used to trickle down. Not a word in ages about 770 support, or the hacker 2007 edition, or indeed the fabled new N800 ROM. Looks like everybody is just waiting for Skype or something...
Methinks this boat is riding its own wave right now, just coasting along... and if it doesn't build up momentum again sometime soon it may start to sink. With Intel gearing up its Linux UMPC killers for next year, the windows of opportunity for Nokia to "get things right" has shrunk. And I'd hate to be left holding yet another Psion.
I agree fpp, and I share those concerns. They are what led me to recently conclude the tablet platform is at a cusp right now-- Nokia's next big move may very well determine its ultimate fate.
To andrbr: well, that's a detail thing and I was really addressing issues at a higher level. But rest assured the tablet program has heard that one... many times. ;)
Hey I just got the N800 and I hope it doesn't go away. Well it being kinda open like it is now I don't see it going anywhere but level or up.
I was at the Web 2.0 Expo this past month and they were really pushing the N800 along with the rest of the N series showing how these devices are the future of mobile internet and they are leading the way to the open standard when it comes to that area. I just believe it's that time of year were people have better things to do then post on a site; I have a few forums and this happens every year.
I don't know much about the N800 development since I just got into it and I am actually working on some online sites based around the N800 but I am sure the development follows the same lead as the surfing does when the sun is out late people are more often to work less cause they have other things on their mind.
I will apologize head if I have said anything out of the topic or anything that doesn't make sense I just wanted to dd my opinion on the matter.
Loving this N800 and the community :)
No problem KNK! You're well within topic, and welcome!
Milhouse
2007-05-15, 03:13
Many thanks Texrat!
There's already a lot of dialog between Nokia and community developers, but far less direct communication between Nokia and "ordinary" users. While a lot of noise is likely on any forum, it's great that someone such as yourself can filter the noise and forward concerns/issues to the powers that be, and keep us informed of responses/progress in the Internet Tablet space.
Now - where is the bl**dy Nokia N800 Case????! It's long overdue! :)
Thanks Mil, and I wish that case was out too! And Skype!
But I may take a breather from this site for a bit. I seem to be a lightning rod for flamers. Maybe a break from me will let them cool a bit. ;)
Right now I can't say that there's been any meaningful reception to my N800-related commentary made today. The venue was very unique though and its mere (brief) appearance means that SOMEone is listening...
Hi Texrat
I agree fpp, and I share those concerns. They are what led me to recently conclude the tablet platform is at a cusp right now-- Nokia's next big move may very well determine its ultimate fate.
Are there really real concerns? There can't be new news all the time. Brilliant Texrat that you can pass on good feedback. But I'd like to think Nokia will stick with the tablets, particularly as they are ahead at the moment. Is it case of doom and gloom feel from overzealous messages here?
But I may take a breather from this site for a bit. I seem to be a lightning rod for flamers. Maybe a break from me will let them cool a bit.
Thanks for all your posts, I've valued the stuff you've posted. You are one of the most reasonable considered posters around!
Rich
Heck, richie, fpp and I may just be feeling a bit of sophomore angst... lol. I do believe it's at a make-or-break point and the next major OS release will be a good indicator of whether it still has legs or not.
I do believe Nokia is solidly behind it, at least one program anyway. ;) Devices like the N800 represent the next communications paradigm, so the company needs to be! But the sad experience of the N-Gage aptly demonstrates that executives will not hesitate to pull the plug even after investing a lot of money IF the product does not meet expectations. We'll see.
And thanks for the personal feedback. I'll try to do even better.
I think the internet tablet is a great idea with much potential, but Nokia still has alot of work do if they wish to keep it going. What really frustrated me when I bought my n800 was the lack of business applications, such as a calendar/to-do list built into the UI. I guess they thought the developers would finish all that for them ...
sondjata
2007-05-15, 23:26
I've been using mine more and more. Maemo mapper has been very good to me and I'm taking it on a road trip (probably wouldn't take it without the N800). I've been using the calendar and to do list (third party) pretty frequently. It's grown on me and I'd probably use Gizmo more if I could be moved to pay yet another party for phone service. I'm kinda annoyed by the codec limitations and the lack of Java and up to date flash, but I'm pretty satisfied with it. I think they ought to come down on the price of the Bluetooth GPS device though. Also the camera..the camera. I know they didn't want it to be a picture taking thing but I've had many opportunities to use the camera (e-mailing friends, etc) where a decent camera would have been priceless. i'd probably drop cash for an N900 if these issues were resolved. If not I'll probably hold onto the N800 until it no longer works.
This from someone who still has and uses a Fossil Wrist PDA.
One thing I can pass along of the feedback I've gotten so far:
Nokia HAS heard you (us). There is going to be a "third quarter push" to get the momentum restarted (think American football, not yearly quarter). I don't know what that means specifically. I don't have a hard picture of what's coming. But I have renewed hope that the device is being supported in the right places-- and yes, that includes the most important piece: customer service.
Peter The Plumber
2007-05-16, 00:56
Heck, richie, fpp and I may just be feeling a bit of sophomore angst... lol. I do believe it's at a make-or-break point and the next major OS release will be a good indicator of whether it still has legs or not.
I do believe Nokia is solidly behind it, at least one program anyway. ;) Devices like the N800 represent the next communications paradigm, so the company needs to be! But the sad experience of the N-Gage aptly demonstrates that executives will not hesitate to pull the plug even after investing a lot of money IF the product does not meet expectations. We'll see.
And thanks for the personal feedback. I'll try to do even better.
Hi Texrat,
Don't get too full of angst. You can also take it that the devices are doing what they're supposed to do. Both of mine are :-) There's allways little things to tweak, just not as earthshaking as a new os release. If you take a break, don't be gone too long. I also value your perspective and advice highly.
Best Regards,
Peter
One thing I can pass along of the feedback I've gotten so far:
Nokia HAS heard you (us). There is going to be a "third quarter push" to get the momentum restarted (think American football, not yearly quarter). I don't know what that means specifically. I don't have a hard picture of what's coming. But I have renewed hope that the device is being supported in the right places-- and yes, that includes the most important piece: customer service. Thanks for the update. I sure hope they bring in a new "quarterback" who will rally the N800 team. I have $400.00 on them. :D
Third quarter push? Are you indicating that the game is more than half over with the N800?
They just shipped the first of the Navicore software to the US... You remember Navicore... it was on the device in all the photos they pushed on us pre-release. And how about the dang case? Their football team has been playing the first half without helmets then.
No no YoDude-- please don't read any sort of life expectancy into that analogy. The point was a reinvigorated effort is underway, just as a team down at the half will implement. I'm eager to see how it manifests.
Ok Tex,
Gave this some more thought. I think Nokia is on the right track with the N800; apparently so does Intel. So to keep the analogy going, don't fall flat after the 2nd half. Nokia has a lead; use it or lose it.
The 'killer app' for the n800 is the screen, or more accurately the screens' view of the web. Give it what it deserves - the full web 2.0 experience. I hate that terrn but you know what I mean. Ditch opera and put effort into minimo if you have to. Update Flash. JVM would be nice too and it would open the device to more developers.
Ok, it's not a PDA. We get it. But to move in the states I think it *has* to have decent PIM and email. needs to be able to view .doc and .xls Corp america is what will get these moving & that's what they need. In large parts of US, wireless is not available everywhere ( los of dead space ) and data plans are still expen$ive - so the google/yahoo won't always cut it, we need local storage of contacts, calendar, etc.
Thumb keyboard is nice, but make it a transparent overlay so you can still see what you are typing into. And just to reiterate, make the darn thing rugged ( hard cover - cough cough ) so I am not afraid to take it anywhere I go. Make the usb port at least somewhat useful - host mode would be sweet but if nothing else let it charge from mini usb like half my other devices.
Better media payback - ok, it shows off screen. Skype/SIP - ehh. Nav - OK if it can orient itself like other $250 devices. Give us one-click root so mortals can tweak it - use UAC-like warning or turn screen red while root.
Oh yeah, one last thing - have it dispense CASH and beer!
I'm pulling for Nokia, but then again I'm a life-long Cubs fan.
Heck, richie, fpp and I may just be feeling a bit of sophomore angst... lol.
I wish, I wish... if anything, it'd be much more like midlife crisis over here unfortunately :-)
Oh, and don't you let the trolls bring you down, huh ? If you hunker down, they win, and *they* are not the useful ones :-)
Milhouse
2007-05-16, 12:12
Ok, it's not a PDA. We get it. But to move in the states I think it *has* to have decent PIM and email. needs to be able to view .doc and .xls Corp america is what will get these moving & that's what they need. In large parts of US, wireless is not available everywhere ( los of dead space ) and data plans are still expen$ive - so the google/yahoo won't always cut it, we need local storage of contacts, calendar, etc.
I tend to agree.
I think the problem with Internet Tablets is the way are being perceived - they're seen as frivilous, unecessary accessories because they're "just" internet tablets. Unlike PDAs the Internet Tablets offer no obviously essential functionality out of the box, and this is why they often receive positive reviews with downbeat conclusions such as "nice gadget if you have the spare change" or "useful device looking for a market". The same review for a PDA would have a totally different conclusion along with a strong "buy it" recommendation.
Nokia need to address the "need" factor of the tablets - offering the internet in your pocket is not, apparently, a compelling enough reason for the masses to buy into the Internet Tablet concept. Eventually the great internet browsing functionality will migrate up to higher spec Windows Mobile devices eroding the lead Nokia currently has.
Nokia must offer more compelling software functionality on the tablets - an excellent email client (ideally with push email support), calendar, contacts and todo list all of which can be synchronised with common desktop software will make the future Internet Tablets a far more compelling purchase for the masses. Without this functionality they will remain niche devices until ultimately being eclipsed by competing devices that steal the best ideas from Nokia.
Excellently put, Mil. The sad part is, just how many times has the exact same conclusion been (more or less excellently :-) posted hereabouts over the past eighteen months, by various users coming from various angles ?
Certainly no one at Nokia has given the slightest hint so far of having listened (and "learned") from THAT...
The irony here is that the PIM part could actually be a piece of cake if Nokia just decided to do it. They wouldn't even have to code something complicated like a special version of the Windows PC Suite that supports the 770/800, just to sync with Outlook...
As a smartphone maker Nokia is one of the founders and proponents of the SyncML open standard, with the corresponding in-house expertise. All they would have to do is come up with a properly Hildonized GPE or Dates or whatever, and give it a SyncML engine -- either through a native maemo port or by finally supporting Java and thus the Funambol client.
Then they could just lay back and wait for the REST OF THE WORLD to come sync up to their device... Outlook, Google Calendar and other web services, phones, whatever...
Sounds like such a no-brainer that sometimes it makes me wonder if I'm the one not thinking straight :-)
The main (day-to-day) uses for my N800 is carrying it around while connected to some network one way or another, so that I can a) receive email b) get gmail notifications c) look things up on the 'net with the browser.
The only serious problem here is the email application, because it doesn't work well with IMAP: It ignores the 'message has been read' part of the imap protocol, which makes it almost useless. The only way to manage is to constantly _delete messages_ when I read them on the desktop. Now, if Nokia could fix this.. instead, they _will not fix it_ according to Bugzilla (I forget the bug ref.# but it wasn't difficult to find).
I'm totally bewildered by this. To me, these applications are what makes the IT different from yet-another PDA, and where the potential is. And if it's not good at this, then what?
(I have claws-mail installed too of course, but that one isn't integrated into the Contacts part of the N800 unlike the built-in app).
Guys, 3rd quarter is not a football analogy. He's talking about Q3.. the third quarter of the year.
sondjata
2007-05-16, 13:39
I'm pretty surprised that Nokia would not release an iSync compatible device. it's about the only reason I still use my wrist PDA. I cannot take the chance of the device up and dying, getting stolen, lost, whatever and not having the data elsewhere.
Guys, 3rd quarter is not a football analogy. He's talking about Q3.. the third quarter of the year.
This is what he said, "One thing I can pass along of the feedback I've gotten so far:
Nokia HAS heard you (us). There is going to be a "third quarter push" to get the momentum restarted (think American football, not yearly quarter). I don't know what that means specifically. I don't have a hard picture of what's coming. But I have renewed hope that the device is being supported in the right places-- and yes, that includes the most important piece: customer service."
madman999
2007-05-16, 16:05
the N800 is searching for that "killer app" that will make it indispensible and more than a "curious tech toy". I don;t know if there is one yet.
I regard it as a mini portable laptop and this should be useful on my next trip especially since I am able to get myself connected to the internet via cellphone. even more useful now that I can use larger SD memory cards.
I use my N800 for browsing the Internet on the go and in my home. work pretty well. just the other day, I used my N800 to browse movie times. Not a big IM user though. I think VOIP and Video messaging could be big. Maybe if there was more development in games/emulators this device would expand it;s audience. The touchscreen is a good feature.
formfactor wise, it;s about akin to a Sony PSP. of course the PSP is a better game device, especially if you have hacked yours with custom firmware. unfortunately, the PSP has it;s own shortcomings that the N800 touchscreen blows away.
Guys, 3rd quarter is not a football analogy. He's talking about Q3.. the third quarter of the year.
As heavyt just said: nope. Football analogy was correct. Sorry if it became unclear... but given that I stated it, I'm not sure how it did...
Well, i do wish that the N800 can make better use of screen estate though.
There are just so much unnecessary fringes, whitespace and supersized icons which are simply wasting the precious screen space!
You never know... developers may be listening... ;)
Hi,
I'm not a big contributor of this forum. I'm not a developer (anymore), so I tend to not post in all directions asking for this or that for others to do :)
In my view what can help the device is to make it more "usage friendly". Let me give you some examples:
- why do I need to have different contact list (default one, Gizmo one, tomorrow Skype one, my GMail account one, ...)
- the GPE calendar is great but how do I synch that with my calendar on Google? Yes it is possible, I know how to do it as a computer adict. But really, it is a pain in the ....
- A very stupid one that upset me a lot: why do I have in the catalog list "Daemon" and "Daemons", "Communication" and "connectivity", "Locales" (????), "misc" and "Others", "Multimedia" and "sound", "Utilities" and "util", ...
- The comments on email client are soooo true. On one hand we have this nice pre-integration with Google talk and on the other accessing a GMail account is a mess.
Don't take me wrong. I'm not complaining. I'm just pointing some pretty basic flaws that once fixed could advertise the N800 (sorry I don't know the N770) as THE user friendly device. In my view what Nokia should provide is needed APIs / libraries and recommendations for application developers.
For me the best example is Canola:
- Based on core N800 components (even if not very efficient video in first version :)
- a UI designed for the N800.
KDE on N800? I'm impressed, really. Very nice. But to be honest, I doubt KDE would be a selling argument for those devices.
Otherwise, I forgot about a idea for Nokia: make a N800 dedicated phone.
No camera, no big screen, no fancy application. Everything runs on the N800 when paired (SMS, contact management, even calls). When not paired, it is only a phone. A modem with a keyboard :) And the high end one is also a GPS.
rheve, I think you will be pleasantly surprised... soon. ;)
mobiledivide
2007-05-23, 19:41
Texrat I too would love to be pleasantly surprised :)
As a user who has found the n800 invaluable over the last few months, I agree with users who experience some trepidation. As a noob to the open source world I must say I don't understand the way in which Nokia wishes to use the community. I see loads of great apps out there, Claws-mail, Abiword, gnumeric, GPE suite, simple launcher, Gizmo, minimo, mplayer, apps that if they were integrated into the system would really make the N800 a juggernaut.
If I had turned on the N800 and the email client had been a well integrated port of claws, and if Abiword were installed with .doc support I would have been immediately able to see value in the device. As is however, I knew what I wanted to use it for and I was able to use it right away. I had a friend who returned his after about 2 weeks because he found he used his smartphone (E61) for all the functions that he wanted an N800 for.
This is where I don't understand, Nokia has the chance to invest a few hundred thousand Euro's in salaries to put some engineers on the job to polish some of these applications. The payoff will come off in users finding that Maemo is a great platform like Symbian and WinMo and the N800 device is the perfect device to use Maemo on.
My wish is for Nokia to make the N800's minimum standard the same level as the integrated googletalk and to not even bother including applications that are broken such as the existing email which I tried to use once and then gave up and the RSS reader which doesn't hold posts at all. Only this way will they find true mass market acceptance.
They have the lead on Intel's MID by having hardware already in the marketplace they should leverage this by keeping current customers happy and using much needed innovation to bring in new users.
Karel Jansens
2007-05-23, 20:29
Nokia isn't interested in making a good device. They're only interested in making a not-too-sucky device so that they can entice users to buy a new, slightly-less-sucky device several times over.
They've managed that trick once sofar.
Nokia isn't interested in making a good device. They're only interested in making a not-too-sucky device so that they can entice users to buy a new, slightly-less-sucky device several times over.
They've managed that trick once sofar.
Some Nokia marketeers and bean counters? Maybe.
Any Nokia engineers, programmers, designers and quality assurance personnel? No.
sherifnix
2007-05-23, 21:17
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume google talk, email and skype are going to enjoy some level of contact integration in the next update since skype seems to be coming with a firmware upgrade.
I hope I wont be disapointed!!!
And steal apples lovely iphone scrolling. I like the flick and scroll idea ;)
penguinbait
2007-05-23, 21:23
Some Nokia marketeers and bean counters? Maybe.
Any Nokia engineers, programmers, designers and quality assurance personnel? No.
They have quality assurance personnel? While I love the platform, I think they have missed the mark on polish. As a linux geek, this thing is awesome, I have control which is what I want. If I knew nothing about linux and I bought this device I would be very upset. I will live through and work around problems/features that annoy me, because it is Linux in my hand, and that is why I bought this thing. If this platform will last, they will need to appeal to more than just linux geeks. I agree with mobiledivide, nokia is missing the massive opportunity in thier hands.
Perhaps they will get it, or something better will come along!!
They have quality assurance personnel?
I'm really going to have to bite my tongue right now.
I get the feeling the message in many of my posts is missed...
penguinbait
2007-05-23, 21:34
settle down,
settle down
:D
Yeah, bait is a good inclusion for your name. :p
penguinbait
2007-05-23, 22:18
insert rat joke here :cool:
Karel Jansens
2007-05-23, 22:54
Some Nokia marketeers and bean counters? Maybe.
Any Nokia engineers, programmers, designers and quality assurance personnel? No.
And guess who makes the decisions and allocates the funds?
mobiledivide
2007-05-23, 23:08
Nokia isn't interested in making a good device. They're only interested in making a not-too-sucky device so that they can entice users to buy a new, slightly-less-sucky device several times over.
They've managed that trick once sofar.
It seems you have a dislike for Nokia and I guess I must be one of their fanboys because in my opinion the divisions that have been making the mobile phones seems to be interested in creating devices that work really well.
I have been using Nokia mobiles for 12 years and have actually NEVER, EVER had one breakdown on me (no lie!). I similarly expect(ed) something similar with the N800. I am a bit of an evangelist when it comes to mobile tech with my friend circle, I try and keep up with all the latest phones devices etc. The N800 I am not freely advocating to everyone yet, only the tech savvy and patient, but I cannot think of a single device for the price/weight/size/power that can do as much.
Texrat I too would love to be pleasantly surprised :)
...This is where I don't understand, Nokia has the chance to invest a few hundred thousand Euro's in salaries to put some engineers on the job to polish some of these applications. The payoff will come off in users finding that Maemo is a great platform like Symbian and WinMo and the N800 device is the perfect device to use Maemo on.
...
What attracted me somewhat is their original investment.
500 units to developers for $99 euros...
A lot must have taken the thing an ran... If list was $399 then each one saved $300 dollars and I thought for sure they would return the favor by providing back to the community $300 worth of code.
That's 500 x $300...
I haven't seen anywhere near $15,000 worth of free community code.
I paid list and I am a bit disappointed with it all.
Hell, even searches on Maemo org for snippets or just about anything brings up mostly 770 stuff with the caveat "this has not been tested on the N800".
Since January it seems that Tableteer, the source to "Keep up-to-date with your N800" has only been updated itself 3 or 4 times.
sherifnix
2007-05-24, 03:13
I think emotions are running a little high in this thread!
Considering that they are developing a fresh platform, things could be worse. We're getting a reasonable amount of feedback, new features, and sexy hardware.
Assuming we get support and refinements to opera, rss, skype and e-mail for another year or two I will be comfortable with my purchase. At that time we'll either have a product we love, and purchase the new fangled n900 on the 'amazing' maemo platform... or we'll dump it for the new intel MID's.
And guess who makes the decisions and allocates the funds?
Oh, I know very well who does what. ;)
I just took aim at your broad brush.
In general: trust me guys, I share your frustration. I just wish I could share a few things that I can't. But that fact alone should help a little... right?
Karel Jansens
2007-05-24, 09:07
Oh, I know very well who does what. ;)
I just took aim at your broad brush.
In general: trust me guys, I share your frustration. I just wish I could share a few things that I can't. But that fact alone should help a little... right?
No, we've had another poster in this forum who claimed to be "in the know", remember?
benny1967
2007-05-24, 13:07
I consider myself an average user with both Linux and Windows experience. It's hard for me to understand the frustration and criticism I read over and over again, not only in this thread. I begin to wonder why I'm not dissatisfied with my Nokia 770. Why do I think the mail client is simple, but still useful? Why do I love surfing and dont complain about some missing plugins? Why do I enjoy watching my DVD collection on the 770 and dont complain about it not beeing able to deliver full resolution at 30Hz? Why wouldnt I ever expect the device to open *.doc attachments? Why am I content with a concept that offers little out of the box but a whole lot of 3rd party software?
I really dont know what makes me so different from other consumers. Maybe our inhouse advertising was better when I bought the 770 last year; it said quite clearly that I'd get a 800x480 touch screen for surfing and reading mails. Period. It was only afterwards that I discovered the endless possibilities of the device and was really, really pleasantly surprised. So it might be a matter of advertising after all.
No, we've had another poster in this forum who claimed to be "in the know", remember?
Yeah, but he gave out supposed details that turned out to be nothing but fluff. I'm torturing you with intentionally vague references to alleged activity. Big difference. :p
sherifnix
2007-05-24, 14:14
Texrat, just say this and we'll all be happy:
"Nokia is releasing a firmware update with 2D and 3D Acceleration enabled, flick scrolling has been implemented, a brand new email client developed from the ground up to be integrated with Skype and Google contact lists, directly accessible from the quick contacts applet, as well as Starcraft Maemo Edition and a new faceplate with Nintendo Gameboy style buttons for control. With the next firmware revision promising a licensed iTunes interface directly from the iPhone! "
Woot Go Nokia!
For what it's worth, the built-in email client is, if not integrated (as in 'synch both ways') with the google contacts list, at least it's able to import contacts. You'll have to set the contact to 'Always' in 'Show in Quick Contacts?' though (in the gmail web interface) to be sure to get it imported.
Karel Jansens
2007-05-24, 14:26
Yeah, but he gave out supposed details that turned out to be nothing but fluff. I'm torturing you with intentionally vague references to alleged activity. Big difference. :p
Oooohhhhh.... :cool:
Heads up: I've alluded to it already but here's the full info. I'm flying to Finland for the first time this Friday to discuss my new promotion and I'll be there a week. I hope to finally meet face-to-face with a few people I've only corresponded with via email, and get an update on the N800.
I cannot guarantee I'll be able to post anything, but I will push to get any info at all that I can release. Of course, Skype and the new OS will be out that week, so I'm already scooped on that one... :p
Anyway, if I don't get to post much (been going nuts getting ready for this trip) I'll catch up when I can!
Milhouse
2007-06-04, 07:25
Texrat - I would certainly be keen to discover what has happened to the promised official Nokia N800 Case!
Lol... yeah, that is the big one, isn't it?
I'll try.
Lol... yeah, that is the big one, isn't it?
I'll try.
Try??? :confused:
No disrespect but; What was the point of this thread then?
BTW, the case is a BIG issue for me.
So is the $15,000.00 apparently waisted on giving away the device to the first 500 people who claimed to be developers. How about a list of names and their pledged involvement.
While you are at it how about the folks in the US who waited month(s) for an out of stock Navicore kit only to find out 2 days after it was released on Nokia's web site that Nokia's own distributor was selling it $40 cheaper.
Come on. $40 to drop ship the same device from the same warehouse, using the same methods... please.
I feel that I am looked at by Nokia as a cow teat that can be milked every time they decide to release something that their marketers had already promised.
Will we wait patiently for this case to be offered on Nokia's web site at a $30 price point only to discover it elsewhere for $15?
500 units to developers for $99 euros...
A lot must have taken the thing an ran... If list was $399 then each one saved $300 dollars and I thought for sure they would return the favor by providing back to the community $300 worth of code.
Huh? Are you kidding? Get real. $300 is just few hours of programmer's time in some countries or very few days in others. You really can't do anything substantial in that time. Anything nontrivial and usable by mere mortals takes weeks of work at least. Fortunately most developers who got the discount are not in it for money so you get more than $300 worth of code (i.e. nothing) :-)
So is the $15,000.00 apparently waisted on giving away the device to the first 500 people who claimed to be developers.
Sorry but that's quite stupid and untrue statement. Opinions can differ but I guess that without that investment the situation with available applications for Nokia tablets and size of developer community would be quite different. There are tons of cool gadgets on the market, much less developers would be interested in N770 or N800 without that discount. I think it was the best investment Nokia made for future of its Maemo platform.
$300 is exactly 2 hours 35 min. of my time.. (I'm not one of those who received the discount though). I could probably write one or two short good Perl scripts in that time.. ;)
(If it wasn't clear from the above: I agree completely with fanoush on this.)
Try??? :confused:
No disrespect but; What was the point of this thread then?
BTW, the case is a BIG issue for me.
So is the $15,000.00 apparently waisted on giving away the device to the first 500 people who claimed to be developers. How about a list of names and their pledged involvement.
While you are at it how about the folks in the US who waited month(s) for an out of stock Navicore kit only to find out 2 days after it was released on Nokia's web site that Nokia's own distributor was selling it $40 cheaper.
Come on. $40 to drop ship the same device from the same warehouse, using the same methods... please.
I feel that I am looked at by Nokia as a cow teat that can be milked every time they decide to release something that their marketers had already promised.
Will we wait patiently for this case to be offered on Nokia's web site at a $30 price point only to discover it elsewhere for $15?
The thread was about more than undelivered cases, Yo.
I'm really not sure why you're lashing out at ME here, anyway. All I can do is try... I simply cannot nor will I guarantee anything. I would hope that you could appreciate my position. I will only pass along what I am approved to pass along. I will NOT divulge proprietary or otherwise guarded info, period. Would you prefer I instead brag and throw dates around that were provided by some unnamed third party?
Sheesh. Talk about shooting the messenger...
Huh? Are you kidding? Get real. $300 is just few hours of programmer's time in some countries or very few days in others. You really can't do anything substantial in that time. Anything nontrivial and usable by mere mortals takes weeks of work at least. Fortunately most developers who got the discount are not in it for money so you get more than $300 worth of code (i.e. nothing) :-)
Sorry but that's quite stupid and untrue statement. Opinions can differ but I guess that without that investment the situation with available applications for Nokia tablets and size of developer community would be quite different. There are tons of cool gadgets on the market, much less developers would be interested in N770 or N800 without that discount. I think it was the best investment Nokia made for future of its Maemo platform.
Where than?
Claws, Maemo Mapper, Minimo, and Canola were developed for the 770 without this incentive. Even Ari's recent post about hacks is 770 based. I'm all for the incentive, in fact that is what attracted me to the device. In hindsight though Nokia's money would have been better spent giving a 100 away free to those who produced in the past.
What new, non-commercial apps have been developed for the N800? We all seem to be waiting on apps that would require a subscription fee anyway?
What about Bluetooth profiles, a telephony app, Hildonized apps that can parse office documents?
BTW, you are entitled to your opinion as I am. However, adding that opposing opinions are "stupid" and at the same time deflecting an answer to the original question of my post "What is the point of this thread?" doesn't help much.
I understand that this question could be taken as hostile but that was not my intention. I truly don't understand.
It seems to me that you can be either an advocate or not. Trying to advocate simple means you are not in fact an advocate.
The same goes for the term "Developer". You either "is" or you "ain't". Just judging by the membership roles to all Maemo forums and the actual output, a lot "ain't". It's either that or the device requires more from an average developer than they are willing to invest.
The $15 K number was just my attempt to quantify this deficiency. I don't know what information was required for the discount. If a description or synopsis of what was planned was included, perhaps Nokia could be more transparent and publish what was expected.
I understand that this question could be taken as hostile but that was not my intention. I truly don't understand.
It seems to me that you can be either an advocate or not. Trying to advocate simple means you are not in fact an advocate.
Okay, you completely misconstrued what I meant by the thread title. Perhaps that originates with me though; I could have certainly chosen a better title and for that I will apologize. However, I still feel like you are overreacting today. If you're going to bash anyone, I'd appreciate it if you'd aim that closer to those NOT trying to bridge the gap between Nokia and this community. Thanks.
FYI, the title was meant in a much broader sense than you interpreted. It wasn't just about development. It is about being a general advocate for the tablet platform and its potential. Perhaps "evangelist" would have been better, but that would have probably stirred up more of the "Nokia suckup" allegations I try to dispel. ;)
Even though my role has changed, I will still do everything in my power to promote the tablet to this community, and this community to Nokia. Odd, then, how I'm only catching fire from one side. Perhaps that is my fault. If so, it's easily rectified: I don't HAVE to do or say anything at all... and when I run out of 770 covers and N800 faceplates, we can call it done.
In hindsight though Nokia's money would have been better spent giving a 100 away free to those who produced in the past.
In fact with N800 it was "Don't call us, we'll call you" and they decided based on previous work.
What new, non-commercial apps have been developed for the N800?
Not sure, search maemo garage. Many were ported though.
BTW, you are entitled to your opinion as I am. However, adding that opposing opinions are "stupid" and at the same time deflecting an answer to the original question of my post "What is the point of this thread?" doesn't help much.
I was just commenting specific issue you brought up two times. Didn't read whole thread. You seem to expect quality apps for $300 worth of developer time. Also you perhaps think that $15000 is a lot of money for Nokia to spent. In my opinion the reality is vastly different so I couldn't think about any other word, sorry. Do you know how much Nokia may spent on 'useless' marketing campaigns? I guess much bigger sums go down the toilet with every such product release without us ever noticing.
I understand that this question could be taken as hostile but that was not my intention. I truly don't understand.
I didn't take it as hostile either. Just as I already told. But indeed it is my opinion only. IMO the developer program was clever and quite inexpensive way how to get Maemo platform accepted in the market (i.e. create buzz at right places and get as much developers as possible) and it worked. Personally I think that without such program done in 2005 the platform would be dead or starving without anyone noticing and there would be no N800 at all. Now they have even Intel on board and future look promising.
Actually Texrat, I may have misconstrued your meaning in your previous "try" post. It indicated to me that you no longer were going to "advocate" but rather pick and chose items from a list and "try" to get answers to items that may have already been resolved.
If this was not the case, my mistake and not yours.
The distributors sale of a Nokia web site item for $40 less is a real concern. I would like to know if I should expect more of this from Nokia? I won't even bother with them in the future if this is so.
As far as the developer incentive goes it is my humble opinion that the $15 k may have been better spent by providing a written developers guide that anybody could use rather than expect output from 500 nameless individuals.
I received more useful information from the Tandy Corp when I bought my first copy of QDOS.
I also think there should be a better, company sponsored outlet for information on this device rather than having to rely on community based forums where members may threaten to take their ball home with them if they don't receive the props they think they deserve.
Actually Texrat, I may have misconstrued your meaning in your previous "try" post. It indicated to me that you no longer were going to "advocate" but rather pick and chose items from a list and "try" to get answers to items that may have already been resolved.
If this was not the case, my mistake and not yours.
The distributors sale of a Nokia web site item for $40 less is a real concern. I would like to know if I should expect more of this from Nokia? I won't even bother with them in the future if this is so.
As far as the developer incentive goes it is my humble opinion that the $15 k may have been better spent by providing a written developers guide that anybody could use rather than expect output from 500 nameless individuals.
I received more useful information from the Tandy Corp when I bought my first copy of QDOS.
I also think there should be a better, company sponsored outlet for information on this device rather than having to rely on community based forums where members may threaten to take their ball home with them if they don't receive the props they think they deserve.
Ok, I can't for the life of me see where you acquired the interpretation of "try". It seems you read something between the lines and I am NOT a "hide crap between the lines" kind of person. True, sometimes my posts can be vague but that occurs as a direct result of policy which I absolutely will NOT violate. I already skirt the lines on occasion as it is.
Taking off the Nokia advocate hat and replacing it with my N800 enthusiast cap, I agree that the lack of a cover at this point is extremely frustrating. However, at the same time perpective prevents me from grading it as critically as you do. That's simply a result, however, of different strokes for different folks. I have different needs and a Nokia-provided cover falls VERY low on that list. I tend to look for third party solutions in that area anyway, so no biggie to me.
I won't argue either way on the developer program. I think the pros and cons are pretty even.
As for your last little slam, here's where you REALLY get me wrong. There wasn't near as much petulance in my post as there was frustration with the "shoot the messenger" approach you are taking. In addition, I can't work up 2 shits over "props", my friend. You have me completely confused with a certain wannabee forum "god" who places much more importance on forum accolades than service. If I was that sort of person, you wouldn't be benefitting from the shipment of covers and faceplates that I do out of my own goodwill and on my own precious time.
If you can't understand that, and insist on misconstruing my motives, then perhaps you'd be better off placing ME on ignore. I admit I'm a little snitty right now, but I really don't care for your own tone. I don't believe your allegations are warranted.
Milhouse
2007-06-04, 16:32
Paging Mr. Moderator! :D
Deep breaths everyone, deep breaths... come on chaps, lets just all get along! :)
Thanks Mil.
I keep forgetting the number one law: "No good deed goes unpunished".
:p
As far as the developer incentive goes it is my humble opinion that the $15 k may have been better spent by providing a written developers guide that anybody could use rather than expect output from 500 nameless individuals.
Did you check maemo.org site? There are heaps of documentation there. It is not a problem of documentation. Anyone who wants to develop for Maemo can do so. The biggest problem IMO is that the platform is young and immature. It took many years for Windows CE/Pocket PC/Windows Mobile to reach mature state and match PalmOS. I still remeber times when people laughed at that platform and there were no useful applications for it and it took many years and platform iterations to get to current state where nobody laughs at it anymore.
Maemo started at end of 2005 and runs only on 2 devices both sold only in selected countries and each device has different version of OS. Over that 1.5 year we had 3 different (more or less incompatible) iterations of the system and quite few such changes are ahead. Also the user base is small. This is not yet good environment for producing commercial apps. It just does not make much sense now. So the only alternative how to overcome this period is free applications until/if the platform matures. I guess that was one rationale behind (first) developer program. To make this happen as fast as possible.
As for the second (N800) program this was about supporting those app developers that created something but also (which you may not know) many/most devices went to 'upstream projects' i.e. GTK, gstreamer, linux kernel, GNOME, ... guys. So basically these people will not write many end user apps for you but they will perhaps make sure that those projects will take Maemo needs into account and things will go more smoothly.
So while you don't see the result directly and in short term, from Nokia's point I think it makes sense.
Thanks for your insight fanoush. All information I glean on this forum affects my developing opinion. I am a member of the garage and do read Maemo.org.
However, these sites have undergone some changes and do not provide the continuity that a 40 or 50 page booklet provides. Try as I might to incorporate new technologies into my lifestyle, when learning something new nothing for me yet can beat the portability and convenience of a book, pencil with an eraser, and a traditional note pad.
Edit: That was fast! Things do change. :)
Posted on Maemo org recently:
Roadmap
This is how the future of maemo is being planned. Follow the details of the new features to be implemented and suggest your own (guidelines below).
Development
Tools
Compilable sources - Next generation SDK - Scrathbox Devkit Update - Scratchbox in Ubuntu - Better maemo developer tools - Gazpacho official support - VMware support - Scratchbox in RPM - Games development support - Backing C++ support - GUI Flasher for Linux - Python plug-in for Eclipse - GDB - strace - Valgrind - Theming tools - Python development support - Plankton in SDK - QEMU 0.9.
Documentation
Complete official docs - maemo training portfolio - maemo architecture - Better code examples - Community documentation tool - Screencasts & video infrastructure - Debugging guide - Kernel development guide - Maemo policy - Global Search API - BT profiles - Build your own devrootfs HowTo - GStreamer plugins doc.
Community
Social News section - CRM + user profiles - Application Catalog revision - VIP hosting & Easy filesharing - Calendar - Location Showcase - maemo summit
Process
Detailed public changelog - Quality Awareness - Application Catalog quality process - Certification
Marketing
maemo flyer - Presentations infrastructure
Platform
GTK+ 2.10 -Consolidated Hildon Framework - glibc-2.5 - HAL - Samba - System meta package - BT headset support -USB host support - Automatic codec installer -G.729 VOIP codec - DTMF - WiMAX
Applications
Skype - Modest email client
>> http://maemo.org/intro/roadmap.html
Textrat, are these some of the improvements you spoke of?
BTW, I realize that being posted about by another can cause one to question the motives behind others posts. My advice is to let it go and the attention seeking nature of the other party will cause him to look somewhere else. Keep doing your thing man. :)
Taking off the Nokia advocate hat and replacing it with my N800 enthusiast cap, I agree that the lack of a cover at this point is extremely frustrating. However, at the same time perpective prevents me from grading it as critically as you do. That's simply a result, however, of different strokes for different folks. I have different needs and a Nokia-provided cover falls VERY low on that list. I tend to look for third party solutions in that area anyway, so no biggie to me.
As a 770 owner (and vocal N800 refuznik) myself, I wholeheartedly agree with the cover issue being a non-priority compared to, say, "legacy platform" support... :-)
BTW, 2/3 weeks ago (ie quite a while after the last Nokia noises about 770 support) I posted a polite message to the maemo dev list, asking if there was an ETA for the next "hacker edition" 2007 OS for the 770. I asked because I wanted to try it out (it being the only upgrade path left to us by the Nokia roadmap), but was prepared to wait awhile if a new version was on the way.
After a week or so without an echo, I reposted the question, inquiring if perhaps it was stupid or impolite or something. Still waiting on that one too...
Meanwhile, the (very) few other posts on that list about OS2007HE made me wonder whether it is really more than a red herring (pun with Sardine intended), as some have surmised here, a way for Nokia to save face and assuage 770 owners without actually committing to anything much. While some report speed, stability and/or user interface improvements with this "unofficial" image, others warn that these come with drawbacks, making the 770 less operational than with the 2006 OS. Two at least are showstoppers for my personal usage : Opera crashing when presented with an "unvalid" SSL certificate (the exact same problem that prevents me from using Minimo), and the lack of support for the cover and its embedded magnet, degrading power conservation and autonomy (I suspect this last is a conspiracy by jealous N800 activists :-).
The way things are going, I'm not very hopeful these (and other problems) will be fixed, and OS2007 actually made usable on the 770. It's true, as someone else remarked, that after eighteen months the little bugger is still every bit as functional and useful day-to-day, maybe even more thanks to maemo mapper and Gizmo and Python and such. I'm not asking for a newer Flash (I could care less) or a newer Opera (gimme a newer Minimo :-) or, God forbid, a PIM... But I find it kinda sad that this little Linux box in my pocket still reboots itself at will at least once per 24 hrs (worse than Windows) after four OS updates, and its killer app (the browser) still knows more ways to fail than I can keep track of. Oh well.
Anyway, Tex, best of luck in your new endeavour(s), and thanks for your dedication. One last word, if I may : I'm certainly no shrink or Zen master, but it does show from your latest postings, my friend, that there is some strain at your end of the line. Perhaps it might help to shut out the trolls from your mind for a while and concentrate on positive and useful things, such as preparing a comprehensive report on Finnish ladies after your trip there :-)
Yeah, a little bit of stress lately, but in all honesty even if I were not the tone of the posts in question would have been met with some irritation on my part simply because I feel it was undeserved. Really hit me wrong given what I have been trying to do. But, if I didn't have so many things pulling me in so many directions lately, and scrambling to make this Finland trip work, odds are I would have been more sarcastic than snippy. ;)
As to your remarks about no response re 2007 Hacker edition for 770, I share your pain. After at first being encouraged by some feedback regarding the N800 in general, I was next a little dismayed at some subsequent silence. I try to keep in mind that there are BIG organizational changes going on at Nokia which have many employees otherwise occupied. The dust is supposed to settle July 1-- just as all of Finland goes into a 1-month Summer hibernation from work. I have no doubt that the next few weeks will see a huge push to get stuff out before that shutdown-- Skype may even be one of them, despite my doubts.
As for Finnish ladies: hopefully there will be enough visible to report on. ;)
EDIT: lol... fixed spelling :o
As to your remarks about no response re 2007 Hacker edition for 770, I share your pain. After at first being encouraged by some feedback regarding the N800 in general, I was next a little dismayed at some subsequent silence. I try to keep in mind that there are BIG organizational changes going on at Nokia which have many employees otherwise occupied. The dust is supposed to settle July 1-- just as all of Finland goes into a 1-month Summer hibernation from work. I have no doubt that the next few weeks will see a huge push to get stuff out before that shutdown-- Skype may even be one of them, despite my doubts.
Duh, I didn't know about that reorg (obviously). Having the privilege of working in a big outfit undergoing massive and permanent change for the past years, I can understand how that may affect things as seen from the outside...
As for Finnish ladies: hopefully there will be enough visible to report on. ;)
I only know one, living abroad here, and she's a stunner. Obviously not a statistical sample, hence my request for more data :-)
EDIT: lol... fixed spelling :o
Yup, but the original typo is still where you quoted yourself, you know, in that "other" thread... :-)
D'oh! :D
*rushes off to fix stupidity*
Milhouse
2007-06-04, 22:17
As a 770 owner (and vocal N800 refuznik) myself, I wholeheartedly agree with the cover issue being a non-priority compared to, say, "legacy platform" support... :-)
Aren't they one and the same thing though? They're both promises from Nokia, which are yet to be delivered. If Nokia can't be trusted to deliver on a simple case to protect the N800, what faith can anyone have in them delivering on legacy support?
So far it looks as though Nokia have their heads buried firmly in the sand where the case is concerned - several months late, no sign of it appearing and no explanation as to why.
There's been little progress on OS 2007 Hacker Edition in 3.5 months - even Carlos (http://www.notacloud.com/blog/?p=28) has not blogged about OS 2007 since 21 Feb, the date of the mkII release - so to me the two promises are intrinsically linked.
A positive update on one issue (the case) would give me a better feeling that Nokia may actually deliver on the other more difficult promise.
:)
And that ^ was the purpose of my original post. Not so much to get it done but to communicate to Nokia through an advocate that the perception of the quality of their company is slowly being eroded by things they can easily correct.
I don't mean produce a case. I mean communicate the reason for the delay or indicate that it won' t be produced and remove it from display.
Sure some will ***** and moan but loyalists will move on to other options.
It is sort of like an airline that keeps you in the plane on the tarmac to wait for their delay so you can't take a flight with another carrier. They may cop the revenue but they end up with many customers who say "never again".
I also would still want to hear their explanation as to why a link from their website to the distributors cost me $40. My Navicore transaction was handled by the distributors server and Nokia did absolutely nothing. And for my $40 dollars I got to post an enthusiastic review on this site about my experience with the product.
Behaviors like this as well as the continued 770 support debacle have a negative affect on everyones perception of the expected life of this thing.
I am an enthusiast, that's why I post on this enthusiasts forum. Once perceptions are cast though, it is hard to maintain that enthusiasm.
Your post is very general, YoDude, but I will answer for my own case: I do what I can, when I can. It's more than I should do given current circumstances but less than I'd like. I wish to God I didn't have to be so vague but that is what it is. I am not in design, I am not in marketing, I am not in sales, and I am not that close to executive management (nor do I have a wife with alleged ties to the higher ups). I cannot always answer for their action or inaction, either. All I can do is make recommendations, provide feedback and elevate issues. I do those religiously... but I am not OPK so please don't expect action just because I... try.
Aren't they one and the same thing though? They're both promises from Nokia, which are yet to be delivered. If Nokia can't be trusted to deliver on a simple case to protect the N800, what faith can anyone have in them delivering on legacy support?:)
Hang on Mil-- again, it's a case (pun unintended but I'll take it) of perspective (and priority).
I personally can't make a 1-to-1 comparison between simple cases and urgent issues. If you do, I won't argue your right to that opinion-- but surely you understand that Nokia executive management might also have a different agenda?
Milhouse
2007-06-05, 02:51
I'm not suggesting the Case is as important as legacy support, I'm simply making the point that both are examples of promises that Nokia appears unable to keep.
Nokia announced the Case on the day of the N800 launch, the Case was actually present during the launch and shipping would (apparently) start during Q1 yet we're almost at the end of Q2 and it's not here, and still no word from Nokia. This is p1ss poor communication.
Whether it be the Case, legacy support, Skype or any other promised feature/accessory I expect Nokia to deliver on their promises and if Nokia is unable to deliver I would like them to explain why so that we can all move on (or b1tch like crazy!)
I don't like being kept in the dark - the Case (which I admittedly would like to purchase) is simply an example of how Nokia are failing to communicate - when things go wrong, they clam up.
Put simply Nokia don't like to communicate bad news to the community. The only way to address this is to challenge them, and that can start with the Case, or legacy support - it makes no difference, it's the same problem. Unless we ask what's going on, we're not going to be told and Nokia will continue to over promise and under deliver.
If Nokia exec management have cancelled the Case, tell us.
If Nokia exec management have cancelled legacy support, tell us.
Etc.
:)
Okay I can agree with that.
Point taken. Not interested in the Case personally, but I can see how that and support can be viewed as different symptoms of the same problem. Boils down to communicating and delivering, I guess : little of the former, and sometimes confusing at that, and hardly any of the latter, lately.
Your post is very general, YoDude, but I will answer for my own case: I do what I can, when I can. It's more than I should do given current circumstances but less than I'd like. I wish to God I didn't have to be so vague but that is what it is. I am not in design, I am not in marketing, I am not in sales, and I am not that close to executive management (nor do I have a wife with alleged ties to the higher ups). I cannot always answer for their action or inaction, either. All I can do is make recommendations, provide feedback and elevate issues. I do those religiously... but I am not OPK so please don't expect action just because I... try.
Well then... by my own definition, if you are "make(ing) recommendations, provid(ing) feedback and elevat(ing) issues" YOU ARE an ADVOCATE for those of us who can't and you aren't trying anything.
For that I thank you. http://www.clicksmilies.com/auswahl/ernaehrung004.gif
As to the general nature of my issue you are correct... but that is where perception starts. Once the ball gets rolling it is hard to stop... and that is all I'm saying. If you can communicate this to them then you get a virtual cookie for that is all I can give. No one is holding you responsible if they choose to do nothing about it.
Let them decide what is trivial...
However, we are standing on the precipice to a time when a plethora of internet appliances will be offered to consumers. Many may have one on their next holiday gift wish list.
Traditionally, decisions on what high end electronic gadget to buy are made based on prospective customers surveying the opinion of others. The perception of the neighborhood, early adopter, forum geek at a backyard barbecue in July will likely have an affect on sales in December... IMHO :)
My motivation is simple. As an enthusiastic owner of an N800, I want Nokia to sell millions of the suckers.
I want more software developed so I can use my device more often. Robust sales and increased support by Nokia is in my best interest. :)
No problem YoDude, and I truly appreciate the difference in tone. ;)
We both want the same thing. I'm just in a slightly different position. I will use that to advantage every chance I get. In fact I recently posted 2 intranet blog entries on the N800 and am working on an executive presentation demonstrating some untapped potential. There are some kinks to work out but hopefully I can get the right people to recognize that potential and start clamoring for some improvements...
I'll help all I can, both ways. That's why I'm here.
What, you mean you're still *here* ?! You should be in Finland already, widda gals ! :-)
I leave Friday morning.
Still scrambling to prepare, too. There was a snafu with my new corporate credit card that gave me panic today... lol. The solution requires me to work from home tomorrow so I can sign for the overnight delivery, so that worked out. :D
Pretty good snafu indeed :-)
Well, Godspeed then !
As I noted in another post here, I somehow became the lightning rod for a few (or one) malcontents here. That was never my intention. I will not be a deliberate participant in disrupting this otherwise decent forum. believe it or not, I actually hate drama.
So, I'm taking a vacation at the least. I'm not happy with recent events or the nature of the discussion afterward (which I believe has been largely based on misrepresentation of the facts). I'm sure there will be some snide comments about "taking my ball and going home" but nothing could be further from the truth. If my active participation runs the risk of inciting drama, whether I've actually done anything inappropriate or someone just thinks I have, then I'm not serving my original purpose. On that note, I will quote a PM I sent to one member here:
in an ideal world no one should worry about reputation on an internet forum but the main reason I participate is to help bridge Nokia and the community-- because I care about the product I helped deliver with a passion.
As nebulous as internet forum credibility may be, it's all I have to use on the forum. I am forbidden to mention my exact role and other data pertinent to the devices. Therefore what I don't need is someone like euchreprof casting aspersions on my character and undermining my mission. And I'm not being merely petulant if I say those personal attacks will lead me to leave-- there is no point in my participation if whatever shred of credibility I have built up is undermined by character assassination.
Personally, I don't give a crap. Professionally I must, if I'm to stick around. I'd like to think you guys would Get That. To an extent I *have* to defend myself if I am to be the bridge I am trying to be. Usually, I will use deflection rather than outright confrontation. But sometimes I slip.
Granted, I've shot myself in the foot on occasion. The price of being a passionate human. But if the forum can get back to a lower level of drama it won't be hard for me to regain whatever standing I've lost.
Anyway, I'm amazed that some of the smarter members here are seriously miscontruing and misrepresenting what went on in that stupid thread. The original debacle and a false rehash serve to corrupt the spirit of the forum. I'd appreciate a truly honest, unbiased approach to the subject if we're going to discuss it.
Thanks.
I may or may not be back. However, rest assured I will at least complete fulfilling the N800 face plate requests I have outstanding. I have truly enjoyed the real and virtual friendships I've established in the short time I've been here.
Please don't feed the trolls. ;)
Peace.
Milhouse
2007-06-06, 15:54
I hope you don't leave, but think a short break might be a good idea so that you can recharge the batteries and allow the hoohah of the last few days to die down. Enjoy Finland, forget about this forum for a week or two then come back when your enthusiasm for all things 770 and N800 gets the better of you! :)
And don't ferget ta bring back picteres of 'em babes :)
Karel Jansens
2007-06-06, 19:47
And don't ferget ta bring back picteres of 'em babes :)
Here you go:
http://www.exodus.co.uk/picfiles/cfa02h.html
Go nuts...
euchreprof
2007-06-06, 20:44
As I noted in another post here, I somehow became the lightning rod for a few (or one) malcontents here. That was never my intention. I will not be a deliberate participant in disrupting this otherwise decent forum. believe it or not, I actually hate drama.
So, I'm taking a vacation at the least. I'm not happy with recent events or the nature of the discussion afterward (which I believe has been largely based on misrepresentation of the facts). I'm sure there will be some snide comments about "taking my ball and going home" but nothing could be further from the truth. If my active participation runs the risk of inciting drama, whether I've actually done anything inappropriate or someone just thinks I have, then I'm not serving my original purpose. On that note, I will quote a PM I sent to one member here:
I may or may not be back. However, rest assured I will at least complete fulfilling the N800 face plate requests I have outstanding. I have truly enjoyed the real and virtual friendships I've established in the short time I've been here.
Please don't feed the trolls. ;)
Peace.
If you are emotinally incapable of STOPPING WITH THE NAME CALLING (malcontents + 50 OTHER NAMES IN THE PAST) then you should leave. I want to relax with you and just ignore each other but u wanna fight still. You shouldn't leave though... u should just STOP CALLING ME NAMES MAN AND PRETEND I NEVER EXISTED LIKE KARL DOES and everything will go back to normal for u.
Frankowitz
2007-06-06, 22:25
I may or may not be back.
I am not an obsessive poster nor do I usually engage in a flamewar kind of thing. But you almost got me into one where there was absolutely no need.
The kind of person it takes to accomplish that are of a kind I don't like to be around because they have a bad influence on almost everything.
I think this forum doesn't need posters like you, wether you have good insight or not. And you have good insight, you must have; You keep telling us in every single post you make. (...)
WILL IT NEVER END!!!!
Texrat Please return!!
IF ANYONE ELSE HAS HARSH WORDS...JUST---SHUT---UP!!!!
I will gladly welcome a moderator if it will stop the conflict. How can anyone learn anything with all the fussing taking up bandwidth!!
GROW UP PEOPLE!!
Checking in from a workshop near Helsinki (break time), using my N800. I would have posted yesterday but there was this huge wall of PWN around the place. ;)
Speaking of preeteen fun, when did 'meltdown' become a euphemism for 'soberly expressing doubt'? Is that like when 35 years ago we said 'bad' when we meant 'good'?
Speaking of good... Finnish women. Consider me pleasantly surprised. :)
sherifnix
2007-06-12, 13:36
Great to hear from you Tex ;)
This forum has had some pure pwnage! Hehe. Hope you're having fun out there.
You probably,don't have a choice, but good places to go from Helsinki are St. Petersburg or Tallinn.
You probably,don't have a choice, but good places to go from Helsinki are St. Petersburg or Tallinn.
I saw the tours mentioned. No chance on those though. Did go to Suomonlinna Island. Very nice.
Speaking of good... Finnish women. Consider me pleasantly surprised. :)
See ? Told ya so... :-)
Speaking of good... Finnish women. Consider me pleasantly surprised. :)
Hmm - I guess Mrs Texrat does not read ITT? :)
Hmm - I guess Mrs Texrat does not read ITT? :)
She would rather die.
Besides, there is her fetish for Harrison Ford to bring up @ opportune times...
Ok, time to report on the Finland adventure.
First, specific to tablets: I did not have my laptop on the trip and was forced to live on the N800. Fortunately I got the VPN client I'm testing to work and managed to handle almost everything I needed to do, including accessing SQL Server asp.net reports across the pond and corporate email. Asp.net interaction will be important to some of my development projects.
The next tablet-specific item may be of interest to several posters here. I was taken to task some time back because I expressed the opinion that not all browser errors were due to the tablet/browser. This assertion was based mainly on my own experience, ie, where I used the same device/OS that others used and didn't experience those problems. Suffice to say that while in Finland I encountered NUMEROUS browser crashes, many fatal (shutting down all Opera windows). Once I returned home to the comfort of my own wifi, they dramatically reduced in number.
As far as I'm concerned, this bolsters what I said before: there MUST be other factors involved, such as routing, ISP config, signal strength, etc. Maybe even the "right" combination of factors. I experienced the most problems while using the Helsinki Radisson's wifi, which had an open signal but authenticated via a web page.
I also tried, as was suggested, using Privoxy to access an intranet page that was giving me grief (due to browser reporting) as well as the infamous Wells Fargo banking page (same problem). Privoxy did not help in this regard, and I'm confused as to why anyone thought it might. What's needed is a proxy server that acts as a middleman browser, passing along the data entered via Opera to the target server using a virtual Internet Explorer browser. Any way to do that? I haven't found anything.
I also played around with the previous version of Minimo, but as before had many problems, mostly browser crashes and the inability to access web pages. I also didn't like the fact that it wouldn't let me paste in URLs. ???
Anyway, the good news is that this experience showed me that if the browser compatibility problem can be resolved, the N800 can 100% replace a laptop in the work environment I am developing for. That was very encouraging!
Oh, and overall, Finland was great. I developed leg problems that required brief hospitalization (probably gout they say) and the doctors were great. $150 euros for everything! A fraction of the US costs.
Bad news is, I did not get to visit with my friends in tablet program... :(
Privoxy allows you to change the user agent on the outgoing HTTP request. Depending on what the server is doing to block non-IE browsers, this *can* be sufficient.
But I'm glad you've finally seen just *how* flaky some people find web browsing on an N800. Admittedly, it seems a lot better these days - but perhaps I'm not using it as much.
Privoxy allows you to change the user agent on the outgoing HTTP request. Depending on what the server is doing to block non-IE browsers, this *can* be sufficient.
But I'm glad you've finally seen just *how* flaky some people find web browsing on an N800. Admittedly, it seems a lot better these days - but perhaps I'm not using it as much.
Okay, thanks for that info about privoxy. I just can't get it to work for me in any way, unfortunately. It even blocks certain corporate intranet pages, which I didn't expect!
As for the flakiness, I think what I've related is critical to understanding what's going on. Not to belabor the issue, but the circumstances regarding my home experience versus other experiences is very telling. I need to share it with the Opera developers. But the root question remains: why should different environments affect the browsing experience to that degree? Is Opera just too sensitive?
TTgowings
2007-06-20, 17:44
I would have to say that the Opera browser is my top/chief complaint on the N800, and so far I am just lost trying to use Minimo (and have used the last 3-4 updates 0.2 now). When using Opera many times on various different pages I've had it just lock-up/freeze trying to add bookmarks/favorites, also the almost complete inability to play videos from webpages, this is especially troubling since most websites and the internet in general is such a multi-media playground now. One should be able to go to a site like Comingsoon.net or IMDB or even IGN or Gamespot to be able to watch movie or game trailers.
How about something in the control panel or in the Opera settings for scroll speed ?
(N900-please include more/better buttons/layouts and some sort of a scroll wheel on the right side)
Well, I don't want to get too deep into particulars on Opera features here... there are better threads for that. I was just trying to unfuzz the dialog over where the problems may be occurring. I strongly suspect that Opera is just too sensitive to certain routing issues, such as timing, and there could be router configuration/signal issues as well.
Peter The Plumber
2007-06-20, 20:08
Ok, time to report on the Finland adventure.
First, specific to tablets: I did not have my laptop on the trip and was forced to live on the N800.
<snip>
The next tablet-specific item may be of interest to several posters here. I was taken to task some time back because I expressed the opinion that not all browser errors were due to the tablet/browser. This assertion was based mainly on my own experience, ie, where I used the same device/OS that others used and didn't experience those problems. Suffice to say that while in Finland I encountered NUMEROUS browser crashes, many fatal (shutting down all Opera windows). Once I returned home to the comfort of my own wifi, they dramatically reduced in number.
As far as I'm concerned, this bolsters what I said before: there MUST be other factors involved, such as routing, ISP config, signal strength, etc. Maybe even the "right" combination of factors. I experienced the most problems while using the Helsinki Radisson's wifi, which had an open signal but authenticated via a web page.
<snip>
Anyway, the good news is that this experience showed me that if the browser compatibility problem can be resolved, the N800 can 100% replace a laptop in the work environment I am developing for. That was very encouraging!
Oh, and overall, Finland was great. I developed leg problems that required brief hospitalization (probably gout they say) and the doctors were great. $150 euros for everything! A fraction of the US costs.
Bad news is, I did not get to visit with my friends in tablet program... :(
Good to hear from you and your adventures! Like yourself I am finding more and more I am living from the tablet, not by design. It's just happening. I would be interested to know what sort of equipement you have at home. I have a old IBM gateway and it works well for now but out and about can be a pain. Although I've found those AP's that authenticate through a web page generally won't let me on using my laptop, SUSE 10.2. The most trouble I get is from hotels and the least is from coffee shops and ATT wifi hotspots. Go figure. Sorry to hear about your health problems, glad to hear you got it taken care of! Most of all I'm happy to see you got through the last year when Nokia shut down/moved several US locations. Thanks for the updates, I'm following your adventures closely. I was a very good boy and have received an 800 for my birthday but since it's my busy time now I haven't taken time to transfer anything yet.
Best Wishes for the Future,
Peter
Thanks for the post Peter!
At present I am using a router provided by Verizon with the FIOS service. I also had excellent results with my Netgear mimo router previously. My little Linksys does ok but needs occasional reboots.
distguitar
2007-06-21, 00:07
I would have to say that the Opera browser is my top/chief complaint on the N800,
How much memory have you allocated for swap?
I gave mine entire 128megs of internal card. I had no problems so far... Perhaps it's just a set of sites that I go to that by default are not to crazy with multimedia... but even youtube works pretty well...
TTgowings
2007-06-21, 07:52
I also am using the full 128mb alloted as well, I have 2 4GB SD cards, 1 internal, 1 external.
Speaking of videos, I was delighted to discover that I can watch CNN videos in ubuntu using totem-mozilla. But I don't think anyone can watch CNN videos on the N800, or is that just me?
Eventually the great internet browsing functionality will migrate up to higher spec Windows Mobile devices eroding the lead Nokia currently has.
Nokia must offer more compelling software functionality on the tablets - an excellent email client (ideally with push email support), calendar, contacts and todo list all of which can be synchronised with common desktop software will make the future Internet Tablets a far more compelling purchase for the masses. Without this functionality they will remain niche devices until ultimately being eclipsed by competing devices that steal the best ideas from Nokia.
Amen to that!!
Nokia will beat them on price.
Nokia will beat them on price.
I hope that's a joke.
Some people will pay a little more for a device that really works for them.
I hope that's a joke.
Not at all. N800 now selling for under $330 at Amazon. Where's the competition that's doing that? So far the N800, warts and all, is the best bang for the buck.
The joke is when people act as if the N800 is the only device out there with flaws, and that alternatives are absolutely perfect. ;)
Some people will pay a little more for a device that really works for them.
N800 works great for me (and others). It's unfortunate you are not pleased, but (and not to be trite) it's rare that a solution will please 100% of the purchasers.
Not at all. N800 now selling for under $330 at Amazon. Where's the competition that's doing that?
I think for the first time you have said something that I completely disagree with ...
I don't think it matters if the device is $1. If Nokia intend to compete in a marketplace that includes the iphone, among others, it needs to deal with the persistent complaints and criticisms from reviewers and the vocal owners that are having a hard time.
I think the n800 is superb, but then I have 15 years linux experience, including 5 years owning a Zaurus or two, which suffered the same kind of issues that the n800 does. As a result, I don't experience the same frustrations that others do, and am a bit more accepting of any limitations.
I agree that other, more expensive, devices are also flawed, and it remains to be seen how many problems there are with iphones, but the fact remains that perception is everything. Nokia needs to get its user community behind it.
I think that the lack of communication regarding upcoming features and timelines is probably the core issue they need to address ...
I think my point was completely missed.
It was all about bang for the buck. Disagree? Ok. No biggie. I've never said anything to contradict what you just posted... in fact I have always agreed with it. Sooo... I'm not getting the disconnect here.
No I don't disagree at all. You are right, it has by far the best bang for the buck available. I'm simply saying that that is not enough, I think.
No I don't disagree at all. You are right, it has by far the best bang for the buck available. I'm simply saying that that is not enough, I think.
I can understand why some would feel that way.
The frustration for me is the hardware is superb but the software sux (imho).
It is the reverse with Windows Mobile. I can do everything I want with existing software, but the hardware isn't "just right" for me (though some upcoming WM6 devices might be there).
I am trying to be patient because it took MS (and developers) about 10 years since Windows CE 1.0, but there is so much promise for the N800 that it becomes extra frustrating.
thoughtfix
2007-07-01, 06:51
Hey Texrat:
http://thoughtfix.com/web.resume.pdf
Bring that to high places too? ;) hehe
You interested in relocating? ;)
thoughtfix
2007-07-01, 18:38
Hehe. Sure, for the right offer. I wish I could code. It seems that's what's needed most.
distguitar
2007-07-02, 04:04
Just a few more praises for n800. I was able to use it today completely without stylus while floating in my pool. Of course i had device in ziploc just in case... But all the features respond great to finger typing. The only bad thing was this forum's color scheme. Difficult to read in the sun.
Karel Jansens
2007-07-02, 13:04
Ahh... See that little box bottom left in the forum window?
No? Well, go inside and look again... Right, that one. Tap it and you can choose a more pool-friendly theme.
BTW, many gracias on the ziplock-tip. Gotta try that one out... Or maybe not, I don't always enjoy living dangerously.
distguitar
2007-07-02, 14:37
Ahh... See that little box bottom left in the forum window?
DOH! Thanks!
BTW, many gracias on the ziplock-tip. Gotta try that one out... Or maybe not, I don't always enjoy living dangerously.
I think it's pretty safe even if dropped into the water. Those ziplocs are airtight.
I want to apologize for my part in the recent firmware hype. It started as small hints regarding improvements for developers, then snowballed once the community got stoked over Skype. I had asked if backing off would be preferrable and didn't receive much in the way of affirmation; indeed, some posters said the speculation was entertaining (especially given lack of formal communications) and to let it ride. I see in hindsight that was probably not a good idea.
Regarding formal communications, I recently appealed for a review of the way that's handled and was soundly slapped down. That incident has caused me to spend the past several days rethinking certain activities. I have concluded, based on that disappointing result and now the community's letdown over this new firmware release, to follow-up on a past urge and throttle back my activities. From this point forward I am just another tablet user (who happens to have some 770 covers and N800 faceplates). I am no longer a tablet cheerleader, nor will I attempt to stoke any flames. It just isn't worth it.
Too bad, we loved to have "somebody" to complain to :)
But i fully understand your point.
I don't think Texrat that you have to feel responsible. We all are participating to the circus and should assume the situation as such a circus, with its positive and negative sides.
It s true, a few among us know more of what is going on in the R&D process, and leaks happens here and there. It s always nice to communicate over those agendas, but we should always pay attention to qualify them as "uncertain information" not certain information.
If s-o knows something, and talks or even hints about it on this forum , then the community will ask for more: when? how? why? It becomes impossible to manage. On the other hand such agenda make the forum very lively, no?
"when scissors cut the paper, very smart is the one who can tell which scissor actually cuts"
Cheer up!
Well, the slapdown from the other side was the far more discouraging event.
sherifnix
2007-07-06, 15:42
I'm not disappointed, it seems like they focused on the right things. Gotta have a solid base to grow on, and thats what this firmware seems like to me.
Texrat, you sound even more despondent then some of us feel. It is easy to get the impression that you see yourself as having been led on and let down and so are taking this firmware disappointment personally.
I respect your taking the time out to post this and it can't have been comfortable for you, not least as an N800 enthusiast.
You nailed it Rebski. Thanks much.
BTW, many gracias on the ziplock-tip. Gotta try that one out... Or maybe not, I don't always enjoy living dangerously.
my personal advice try it with your S-E first. if it s ruined then you re up for a brand new smartphone ;-)
I think there is a problem, but it's Nokia's not yours. A lot of promises were made and
implied by Nokia ads and publicity. Since the N800 never fully lived up to its hype,
those who trust Nokia naturally expected it to supply fixes by way of upgrade. We
waited a heck of a long time for this anemic upgrade.
The N800 is nice, but it could have been a contender. I don't see enough effort being made to compete successfully with companies like Apple. In the meantime, the N800 fits my needs more or less perfectly, so I will just keep enjoying it for what it is, for as long as it lasts.
Nokia needs people like Texrat participating here. This is the center of the N800 world, and its fate will be determined here. If Nokia doesn't understand that, it cannot succeeed.
geneven,
I agree with everything you say.
Mike.
mobiledivide
2007-07-06, 16:21
I think that Nokia by been so removed from the audience is really missing some things. I believe that the corporation should communicate with their audience. I am assuming that at least a couple of people over at Nokia read this forum and surely they could have sensed that a letdown was being created by all the meaningless hype. All they would have to do is instruct Ari Jaaksi to release a blog post or even a forum post to say that there would be no BT support, and no skype video support or something along those lines to temper the rabbid fanbase.
Texrat its unfortunate that the higher ups don't realize how much of an advantage they have in having an employee embedded in the user community, I for one think the new update is a step in the right direction.
Mobile, I appreciate it and agree... but my own comments along those lines were met with swift and strong resistance.
Nokia is taking "baby steps" in improving the N800 while it's competitors are taking leaps and bounds towards greater achievements and products in the internet/phone tablet market.
I feel at this point in time Nokia's corporate cultural will keep the company in the position of a non-leader. They need to study companies like Apple, Toyota etc.
funtasticguy
2007-07-06, 16:50
Mobile, I appreciate it and agree... but my own comments along those lines were met with swift and strong resistance.
That was absolutely dumb for Nokia to do. Indeed, if they had allowed you to do what you had proposed to them, it could have avoided so many misunderstandings and false expectations! Very dumb of you, Nokia! Very dumb!
sherifnix
2007-07-06, 17:02
Typing this from the tablet. I'm going to keep rambling to see if they resolved the stupid Opera text entry bug.
ThThThis is a new paragraph. Omg it seems to be working. This makes me quite happy.
Oh
how I love my little tablet again.
Nope. It's still ****ed up.
up.
up.
oes it work?rk?rk?is is a new paragraph. Omg it seems to be working. This makes me quite happy. Oh how I love my little tablet again.
Lame.
Karel Jansens
2007-07-06, 17:38
my personal advice try it with your S-E first. if it s ruined then you re up for a brand new smartphone ;-)
Not a bad idea. I'll wait till october though -- see my thread in "competitors" for the explanation.
Actually, at the moment I'm in two minds whether to dunk the old (working) P910 in the pool, or the N800. It'll depend on how soon and how well Nokia is going to solve the firmware mess...
Companies only have so many tries to get something right. Customers only have so much patience. I hope to God the right Nokians are paying attention...
sherifnix
2007-07-07, 05:42
Does nobody else have this text entry problem when using full screen? Try typing 2 or 3 paragraphs and editing them with fullscreen mode. It completely hoses the formatting.
You can see what happens 2 posts up.
I think there is a problem, but it's Nokia's not yours. A lot of promises were made and implied by Nokia ads and publicity.
They really didn't though. The only thing which has been committed to was Skype which has been delivered (albeit a week late).
The hype and expectation was caused my members of this forum whipping themselves into a frenzy. Really, anyone who was expected a Maemo 4/Chinook-based OS with updated Flash, updated Opera, Java, a brand new whizzy iPhone-like interface, improved email client, improved *everything* was just plain delusional.
It was obvious people were going to be disappointed. It was obvious that there'd be some under-the-cover improvements and bug fixes, it was obvious it'd be another Bora release (i.e. Maemo 3.x). The only bit I wouldn't have expected (if Texrat hadn't said anything) was Flash 9... but then that doesn't really bother me either.
The N800 is nice, but it could have been a contender. I don't see enough effort being made to compete successfully with companies like Apple. In the meantime, the N800 fits my needs more or less perfectly, so I will just keep enjoying it for what it is, for as long as it lasts.
Nokia needs people like Texrat participating here. This is the center of the N800 world, and its fate will be determined here. If Nokia doesn't understand that, it cannot succeeed.
Agreed 100%.
Cheers,
Andrew
The hype and expectation was caused my members of this forum whipping themselves into a frenzy. Really, anyone who was expected a Maemo 4/Chinook-based OS with updated Flash, updated Opera, Java, a brand new whizzy iPhone-like interface, improved email client, improved *everything* was just plain delusional.
Yes. Many of us (including myself) all expecting too much and we incline to take hints and rumours for granted. Moreover, - but I nknow nothing about OS development pace- maybe it s illusional to expect quantum leap improvement 17 weeks after the previous release?
I think that Nokia by been so removed from the audience is really missing some things. I believe that the corporation should communicate with their audience. I am assuming that at least a couple of people over at Nokia read this forum and surely they could have sensed that a letdown was being created by all the meaningless hype. All they would have to do is instruct Ari Jaaksi to release a blog post or even a forum post to say that there would be no BT support, and no skype video support or something along those lines to temper the rabbid fanbase.
Texrat its unfortunate that the higher ups don't realize how much of an advantage they have in having an employee embedded in the user community, I for one think the new update is a step in the right direction.
There are many Nokia people related to the Maemo program that are reading these forums. Take me for instance. I'm a member of the interaction design team for Maemo. (Check out http://maemointeraction.wordpress.com btw. - plugplug! One way to communicate directly to the UI design team.)
Anyway, we cannot really go into a mode where we would read all the hype and start confirming/shooting it down one by one. That's not what any company in this field really does. Think about Apple or MS or anyone. There are many reasons, fortunately or unfortunately for that. Legal, implementation, contractual, marketing etc. Publicly committing beforehand to certain features in a certain schedule really limits the flexibility. Of course we then shouldn't be a in a mode where we would fan the flames of hype, so to speak.
Also it then depends a bit on the definition of a new feature. Things like bugs are actively being discussed in our bugzilla system. (And we're working on to further improve this.)
Anyway, we cannot really go into a mode where we would read all the hype and start confirming/shooting it down one by one. That's not what any company in this field really does. Think about Apple or MS or anyone. There are many reasons, fortunately or unfortunately for that. Legal, implementation, contractual, marketing etc. Publicly committing beforehand to certain features in a certain schedule really limits the flexibility. Of course we then shouldn't be a in a mode where we would fan the flames of hype, so to speak.
Also it then depends a bit on the definition of a new feature. Things like bugs are actively being discussed in our bugzilla system. (And we're working on to further improve this.)
It s nice to see the hand of God or his little finger :-) touching us through the clouds...
Personally I understand the business constraints you list and the way Andrew has described the cycle of "hype and desillusion".
However - IMO- it remains that the prime factor for all this is and this is a positive side: the potential of the IT, even more as it s Linux based. To achieve this potential requires a lot of work, patience and communication between design, development, applications level, and end users.
I don't agree that the hype was created here. Go back and look at some of those daffy commercials. Wasn't there video in them? Users were depicted doing some far-out things. I'll try to hunt one up and look at again. Maybe the realistic thing was to assume that Nokia was just lying its head off, but I thought that Nokia was announcing what it was going to do with the N800.
There are many Nokia people related to the Maemo program that are reading these forums. Take me for instance. I'm a member of the interaction design team for Maemo. (Check out http://maemointeraction.wordpress.com btw. - plugplug! One way to communicate directly to the UI design team.)
Anyway, we cannot really go into a mode where we would read all the hype and start confirming/shooting it down one by one. That's not what any company in this field really does. Think about Apple or MS or anyone. There are many reasons, fortunately or unfortunately for that. Legal, implementation, contractual, marketing etc. Publicly committing beforehand to certain features in a certain schedule really limits the flexibility. Of course we then shouldn't be a in a mode where we would fan the flames of hype, so to speak.
Also it then depends a bit on the definition of a new feature. Things like bugs are actively being discussed in our bugzilla system. (And we're working on to further improve this.)
It felt good to read your post ragnar.
I don't believe anyone expects Nokia to officially respond to forum hype, so let's take that permanently off the table of discussion, okay?
The essential point here is that rumors emerge in the absence of facts. Granted, there are indeed details which Nokia MUST hold secret-- few are arguing that. And not everyone expects a day-to-day diary of details. That's unrealistic.
But the fact remains that there are STILL communication gaps that can be easily filled, with proactive dispensations designed to keep the tablet users (and especially developers) encouraged. This could be as basic, for one example, as an occasional "we're still working on getting Skype ready so hold on!".
It is the dearth of such bon mots that rumor and user-generated hype arise. The element that seems strangely lost on Nokia is that the tablets poke farther into the Open Source community than any device of its kind. That has tickled the interest of hardcore folks who strongly disagree with the percentage of proprietary components involved. It may well be impossible to make these OS advocates completely happy, but in my opinion more outreach should be done than has been. This doesn't mean giving up trade secrets, a conclusion some Nokians mistkenly assume from such requests. It means being as open and honest as reasonably possible and striving for consensus mutually beneficial to Nokia and its intelligent purchaser base.
The tablet users are far more savvy than your average Mac or Windows user. To a large extent, the community has been deeply steeped in the Linux world which is far, far different than anything involved in commercial enterprises. I realize the development team should be able to get that, but that understanding doesn't seem apparent to the tablet community, which in general is very surprised at some moves... and especially the silence.
The sad and ironic thing is, were this true Open Source, the community would have solved those significant lingering bugs long ago, and cut your development time by a large portion. They know this, and it galls them. They WANT to help. They are frustrated at not being able to, as they would in any other true Open Source endeavor.
But, lacking that level of involvement, at least throw a bone or two out to the community on occasion. No trade secrets. No defensive posturing, either. Just a periodic "hey guys, we're still alive!". That sort of effort can work up some truly important good will, and perhaps mitigate the forum frenzy.
Just my 2 cents.
Karel Jansens
2007-07-07, 14:44
But, lacking that level of involvement, at least throw a bone or two out to the community on occasion. No trade secrets. No defensive posturing, either. Just a periodic "hey guys, we're still alive!". That sort of effort can work up some truly important good will, and perhaps mitigate the forum frenzy.
Just my 2 cents.
That's okay. Come november, we'll all load OpenMoko on the tablet and happily forget about Nokia software "development".
..and then it will be as it was in Zaurus-land, until something new comes around ?:-)
Karel Jansens
2007-07-07, 15:41
..and then it will be as it was in Zaurus-land, until something new comes around ?:-)
Why not? Isn't that the Linux way: If it works, don't break it. If it doesn't work, ditch it and don't look back?
My QTopia-based Archos still works, and never crashes; I have a complete(-ish) Office suite for it (albeit obtained on a legally shakey basis) and all the programs I need for it. Heck, I can even plug in a USB keyboard and mouse and use a TV as monitor. Bear in mind that it was intended as a beefed-up media player.
The problem with the N800 is that a lot (and I mean a LOT!) of the basic functionality that QTopia gives, is missing from Maemo, even considering the geriatric condition of QTopia. I don't want the latest and hottest, I just want enough stuff to do what I need to do.
Consider this: Since 2005 many, many people have been asking for a decent port of Abiword to ITOS. It has become clear that there is not enough incentive from the OSS community to make this happen (which is not a complaint: OSS developers are allowed to do what they want; I don't pay their salary, so I don't get to set their agendas), and yet Nokia has done zilch all in this field. The same goes for a lot of other applications the community has been asking for.
It seems to me that Nokia is quite happy to take the easy road, hide themselves behind the perennial moniker: "It's an Internet Tablet, not a PDA!" and just sit back and assume they are great contributors to the Open Source movement.
I really like the N800 (and my 770 as well), but this attitude is beginning to seriously bug me. Just have a look at OpenMoko.org and OpenMoko.com to see how a real open platform should look like. I can still remember (heck, everyone can by going into the archives of this forum) how people reacted and gave suggestions after Nokia announced the 770. Exactly 0 (zero) of those suggestions made it into the consumer-ready version of the 770. The OpenMoko folks have adapted the hardware platform even before it came out, based on community feedback.
Now that I like...
benny1967
2007-07-07, 16:19
It seems to me that Nokia is quite happy to take the easy road, hide themselves behind the perennial moniker: "It's an Internet Tablet, not a PDA!" and just sit back and assume they are great contributors to the Open Source movement.
Got myself a new desktop PC the other week. Most of the hardware is by Intel. Should I go and ask Intel for all the software I need/want? A word processor, great strategy games, a VoIP-client, ...? Would you? Probably not, because you know that there's people who do the hardware and there's people who do the software.
Nokia is the company who does the hardware. I understand it is their intention that it should be others who do the software; just to get things working, there's a few applications pre-installed, similar to a pre-installed Windows on a new PC.
I think its a reasonable strategy. The only thing they did wrong was to incorporate hardware thats unsupported in free software land, which prevents other variants of GNU/Linux to run on the device.
And: Yes, they are great contributors to the free software movement. Didn't we all read how now even their competitors plan to re-use the components they developed?
mobiledivide
2007-07-07, 16:20
There are many Nokia people related to the Maemo program that are reading these forums. Take me for instance. I'm a member of the interaction design team for Maemo. (Check out http://maemointeraction.wordpress.com btw. - plugplug! One way to communicate directly to the UI design team.)
Anyway, we cannot really go into a mode where we would read all the hype and start confirming/shooting it down one by one. That's not what any company in this field really does. Think about Apple or MS or anyone. There are many reasons, fortunately or unfortunately for that. Legal, implementation, contractual, marketing etc. Publicly committing beforehand to certain features in a certain schedule really limits the flexibility. Of course we then shouldn't be a in a mode where we would fan the flames of hype, so to speak.
Also it then depends a bit on the definition of a new feature. Things like bugs are actively being discussed in our bugzilla system. (And we're working on to further improve this.)
Thanks for addressing, I too don't believe you should go into a forum and start shooting down rumors, however when you deal with a market that is as savvy as this one I feel that they can be respected with a different level of interaction than is granted the regular Windows/Mac/Symbian user.
Also I think since the community is relatively small a little bit of interaction will result in a larger result than expected. It would be really interesting to know how many devices had been shipped/sold as compared to other Nokia devices such as mobile phones etc.
Anyway thanks a lot for all the hard work, I already enjoy this device and appreciate your input into the situation.
Karel Jansens
2007-07-07, 17:22
Got myself a new desktop PC the other week. Most of the hardware is by Intel. Should I go and ask Intel for all the software I need/want? A word processor, great strategy games, a VoIP-client, ...? Would you? Probably not, because you know that there's people who do the hardware and there's people who do the software.
Nokia is the company who does the hardware. I understand it is their intention that it should be others who do the software; just to get things working, there's a few applications pre-installed, similar to a pre-installed Windows on a new PC.
I think its a reasonable strategy. The only thing they did wrong was to incorporate hardware thats unsupported in free software land, which prevents other variants of GNU/Linux to run on the device.
And: Yes, they are great contributors to the free software movement. Didn't we all read how now even their competitors plan to re-use the components they developed?
Your comparison is seriously flawed. A more accurate one would have been to compare the Internet Tablet to Apple computers, but I guess that would have been less convenient.
Milhouse
2007-07-07, 17:48
There are many Nokia people related to the Maemo program that are reading these forums.
You should all have "Nokia" appended (or prefixed) to your usernames so that we know who you are! :D
benny1967
2007-07-07, 17:53
Your comparison is seriously flawed.
Why?
A more accurate one would have been to compare the Internet Tablet to Apple computers.
Why?
Why not? Isn't that the Linux way: If it works, don't break it. If it doesn't work, ditch it and don't look back?
My QTopia-based Archos still works, and never crashes; I have a complete(-ish) Office suite for it (albeit obtained on a legally shakey basis) and all the programs I need for it. Heck, I can even plug in a USB keyboard and mouse and use a TV as monitor. Bear in mind that it was intended as a beefed-up media player.
The problem with the N800 is that a lot (and I mean a LOT!) of the basic functionality that QTopia gives, is missing from Maemo, even considering the geriatric condition of QTopia. I don't want the latest and hottest, I just want enough stuff to do what I need to do.
Consider this: Since 2005 many, many people have been asking for a decent port of Abiword to ITOS. It has become clear that there is not enough incentive from the OSS community to make this happen (which is not a complaint: OSS developers are allowed to do what they want; I don't pay their salary, so I don't get to set their agendas), and yet Nokia has done zilch all in this field. The same goes for a lot of other applications the community has been asking for.
It seems to me that Nokia is quite happy to take the easy road, hide themselves behind the perennial moniker: "It's an Internet Tablet, not a PDA!" and just sit back and assume they are great contributors to the Open Source movement.
I really like the N800 (and my 770 as well), but this attitude is beginning to seriously bug me. Just have a look at OpenMoko.org and OpenMoko.com to see how a real open platform should look like. I can still remember (heck, everyone can by going into the archives of this forum) how people reacted and gave suggestions after Nokia announced the 770. Exactly 0 (zero) of those suggestions made it into the consumer-ready version of the 770. The OpenMoko folks have adapted the hardware platform even before it came out, based on community feedback.
I see I need to elaborate on that original one-liner (I tend to be a bit terse when using the on-screen tapboard on the tablet, nothing like a real keyboard :-)...
Actually I mostly agree with you, as sometimes happens, except maybe for the end bit.
What I meant is that when I bought into the 770, and its proclaimed future, I had been using a Zaurus for some time. The hardware was fantastic for its time (and still unequaled in some respects, just like a Psion or a Newton), and the system & software probably OK at the very beginning. But it had already been clear for some time that Sharp was just riding its original masterstroke, and milking the platform's domestic success, with very few improvements from one hardware model to the next (750 vs 760 vs 860, anyone ?...) and just about none in the system/software department. The result was that outside of Japan the Zaurus lived, and still lives, just as if Sharp didn't exist, and mostly though its enthusiast user base. Unfortunately, from a user's point of view, the results were/are not pretty : fragmentation, quarrels between teams, dozens of competing ROMs incompatible with each other, and not one that you could call feature complete and/or user-ready.
In late 2005 I believed the 770 was another nice, innovative bit of hardware, but one that might escape such a sorry fate because its maker seemed to "get" the open-source game, thought globally, sold it worldwide, and looked like it could pull a "benevolent dictator" trick : allow the enthusiast community to grow and breed the platform, while acting as a central clearinghouse to maintain its unity and consistency. This is a known hallmark of many successful OSS standards : Linux/Torvalds, Samba/Tridgell, Python/van Rossum, Perl/Wall, etc., etc.
I do agree with you that in this matter, despite much posturing and feeble (or not very visible) attempts, Nokia's delivery has been utterly disappointing.
At this point, sadly, it looks like another (big) company unable to play the trump cards in its hands before it's too late, to relate to its user base, and recognize the value of its inside assets (that's for you Tex :-).
I hope I'm wrong, but this mess reminds me of the recent "History of Psion" recently published by the Register :
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06/26/psion_special/
Psion had a dominant, first-to-market position, innovative projects, and the right people to implement them (some of which later went on to create the iPod and Tom Tom success stories). Yet it faltered through lack of vision, lack of user communication, mismanagement, strategic errors and fear of competitors. Ring any bells ?
However, I don't share your optimism concerning OpenMoko. Yes, they have an innovative hardware approach ; but history shows that the problem is software, not hardware. Without someone with the right attitude at the helm, what's to prevent this new platform to also become a wasteland of half-baked, mostly abandoned hacker efforts ?
Hi, I work at Nokia for maemo and the Internet Tablet projects. I have recently blogged about feedback and communication between Nokia and the community: http://desdeamericaconamor.org/blog/node/373
Some thoughts after reading this thread.
- I agree we have to improve our communications with the community. Ideas are welcome (please keep reading).
- "Silence" is a tough accusation though. In the maemo.org context @nokia.com people are discussing with users and developers regularly.
- I guess the "silence" accusation comes from the fact that nobody is answering officially as Nokia in ITT discussions. I'm really not sure if Nokia members should commit to be active here, in an independent (and successful, and pretty cool) forum. Does anybody expect answers from Mozilla, OOo, Ubuntu, (etc) developers out of their own channels of feedback and discussion?
- If you want to know/influence the plans for maemo and the Nokia Internet Tablets your main reference is http://maemo.org/intro/roadmap.html . You hit that roadmap after going through the process suggested there: filing enhancement requests or proposals on wiki pages at maemo.org and communicating them to the maemo mailing lists.
- Let's agree that not every ITT contributor can/will go happily through that process even if her idea is good and feasible. But let's also agree that we can't compromise to be active in all the discussions happening out of our official channels. The role of the senior contributors or the highly interested is very relevant: they can pick interesting ideas in i.e. ITT, develop and push them into our process.
Karel Jansens
2007-07-07, 18:49
However, I don't share your optimism concerning OpenMoko. Yes, they have an innovative hardware approach ; but history shows that the problem is software, not hardware. But without someone with the right attitude at the helm, what's to prevent this new platform to also become a wasteland of half-baked, mostly abandoned hacker efforts ?
(snipped all the stuff I agree with, because -- well, because I totally agree with it)
OpenMoko is indeed taking its first baby-steps, but you have to agree that they appear to be listening to their user base: They just quadrupled the flash memory, almost doubled the processor speed and included WiFi b/g, all the things prospective users and developers had been asking (I'm assuming the motion sensors and the graphics accelerator were a free bonus ;) ). To me, that shows commitment. If Nokia had done that, we'd have started with the N800 (OK, minus the camera, because it's lame)!
Also, if you go to http://www.openmoko.org/ and check the place out, you'll find that there are already quite a few projects in development, and the device isn't even out yet!
Karel Jansens
2007-07-07, 18:50
Why?
Why?
Don't you know?
Milhouse
2007-07-07, 19:13
- Let's agree that not every ITT contributor can/will go happily through that process even if her idea is good and feasible. But let's also agree that we can't compromise to be active in all the discussions happening out of our official channels. The role of the senior contributors or the highly interested is very relevant: they can pick interesting ideas in i.e. ITT, develop and push them into our process.
I agree that not every ITT contributor will go through that process - it's apparent that not every ITT contributor is even willing to file bug reports let alone file a detailed roadmap request.
However this site (ITT) is your litmus for how well Nokia is progressing and highly indicative of where some of the big problems are (from a humble end users point of view). For example, Thoughtfix has already submitted a roadmap request for Bluetooth PAN support but it should be obvious from the pain expressed on this forum that Bluetooth PAN support is an absolute necessity and not merely a wishlist item.
While I agree that we (the users) should assist Maemo and Nokia by submitting concrete requests for new functionality, it should also be possible for Maemo/Nokia to moderate their strategy based on some of the feedback available in this forum.
Nokia employees have attempted to be active in this forum in the past (Texrat) but for some reason the powers that be don't seem to appreciate his involvement - I think that's a missed opportunity.
Hi Qim, nice to see you here ! Just a remark about a couple of points you made :
- "Silence" is a tough accusation though. In the maemo.org context @nokia.com people are discussing with users and developers regularly.
- I guess the "silence" accusation comes from the fact that nobody is answering officially as Nokia in ITT discussions. I'm really not sure if Nokia members should commit to be active here, in an independent (and successful, and pretty cool) forum. Does anybody expect answers from Mozilla, OOo, Ubuntu, (etc) developers out of their own channels of feedback and discussion?
The first one is true, and the second one I agree with. But "silence" is not the same thing as "absence of answers". Yes, @nokia folks (mostly techies) do blog and participate and be helpful in the mailing lists, but that doesn't mean many long-standing questions (mostly non-technical) don't stay unanswered, especially by the people who *should* answer them (who maybe are not the same as those who speak to us).
I have seen many such questions posted to the maemo mailing lists (and posted a couple myself), which have actually been met by total silence, or at best by vague and reassuring answers, blog posts, roadmaps or declarations of intent, a lot of which are still unfulfilled six or twelve months later.
People ask their questions wherever they think they have a chance that someone will take notice : here, on the maemo lists, in comments to blog posts, on IRC, whatever. I have seen these just about everywhere : why are long-standing bugs not fixed ? will there be a BT audio profile ? will there be a BT PAN profile ? will there be a decent, non-proprietary SIP client ? will there be upgrades to the OS2007HE for the 770 ? And many more such, without an answer or a clear one.
Probably part of the reason is that often the people @nokia who see the questions don't have the answers, or maybe are not allowed to give them. This I totally understand, but then it means only two things : either there is *someone* who knows the answers and can give them -- then at times they should stand up and speak ; either there is not... 'nuff said.
So yes, "silence" is maybe not the right accusation, nor all of it ; but "noise" is not the right answer, nor all of it, either :-)
(snipped all the stuff I agree with, because -- well, because I totally agree with it)
OpenMoko is indeed taking its first baby-steps, but you have to agree that they appear to be listening to their user base: They just quadrupled the flash memory, almost doubled the processor speed and included WiFi b/g, all the things prospective users and developers had been asking (I'm assuming the motion sensors and the graphics accelerator were a free bonus ;) ). To me, that shows commitment. If Nokia had done that, we'd have started with the N800 (OK, minus the camera, because it's lame)!
Also, if you go to http://www.openmoko.org/ and check the place out, you'll find that there are already quite a few projects in development, and the device isn't even out yet!
I just went and took a look.
Yes, this is the anti-iPhone in just every possible way.
Yes, this is a novel approach to hardware design (not the idea itself, but in the sense that it actually is bringing something to market).
Yes, this is the closest thing to date to "things done right" from an open-source enthusiast/hacker/geek's point of view.
I'm still not convinced I'll like the results, from a user's (or even power-user's) perspective, say in a year or two.
Take this gem in the iPhone/Neo1973 comparison chart : "Software can be created by normal users." Charmingly naive, no ?
Also some signatures in the active members are very reminiscent of the past Zaurus (and Linux on other PDAs) fragmentation and turf wars debacle, let's hope they do better here.
I do hope I'm totally wrong anyway -- but in a sort of altruistic way, because I'm too old to squint at a 640*480 2.8" screen :-)
Good points.
- ITT is indeed a source of feedback for Nokia. At least the hot topics are followed professionally, gathering the relevant points and forwarding them where appropriate. Then there is the people that follow ITT by own initiative, and eventually they take part in the discussion at their own risk.
- As for today I haven't connected texrat (or anybody else active here) with a Nokia name and role. Nor I have investigated. Therefore, I don't know and I can't evaluate about his/her success communicating internally.
- Yes, many times Nokia developers don't know or can't talk or even are not sure if they can talk about topics not under their own responsibility. Don't blame at them: they are professional developers putting a lot of compromise and passion beyond their contract and official objectives.
- Decision-making in Nokia is not always a simple process, as I guess it's not simple in any corporation (in fact is not simple in community projects either, but that's another topic). Just some (important) no-answers are caused directly by secrecy. Some no-answers correspond to no-decisions, and we prefer to keep silent while the decision is made (a process that sometimes might be long). Some no-answers happen because the question doesn't arrive to the person with the answer. Some no-answers happen because the answerer is pretty busy (sometimes fixing the issue questioned). We are trying to improve this, and the roadmap is our main tool.
- If you follow the process we have to answer. If we don't answer please insist once in our own channels. At least we should be able to tell you why we don't have an answer. Good questions deserve better answers.
- About gathering support for features (or bugs): never underestimate the voting feature at http://bugs.maemo.org . Mobilize your audience to vote on the features you want to push. Voting is easy for them. We do look at those numbers.
Just to clarify: I'm not a developer. My role is product manager of the maemo development platform. Improving the communication with developers and power users is one of my responsibilities. I'm the maintainer of http://maemo.org/intro/roadmap.html . I generally don't know the answers but I can help channeling questions to the right people.
As an example of the above:
- A2DP: http://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=667
- PAN: http://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1195
- OSS SIP client: dunno, please follow process and I'll investigate
- OS2007HE: http://maemo.org/news/view/1183720952.html
PS: we are in touch with OpenMoko (and OLPC) in the GNOME Mobile context and in other levels. They are cool and it is great that they exist. They help us being better, and we help them being as they are. However, since the organizations, business models and marketing strategies are totally different, comparing the hardware strategies is interesting... but that's it.
Karel Jansens
2007-07-07, 21:27
I do hope I'm totally wrong anyway -- but in a sort of altruistic way, because I'm too old to squint at a 640*480 2.8" screen :-)
:p
Just limit yourself to installing the finger applications. Otherwise, like you, I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
So I'll probably hang on to both my N800 and my P910 till at least November (assuming the beefed-up Neo1973 comes out in October as promised) and then see which one goes in the pool.
You hear that, Nokia? You have until November to get your act together (the P910 already works...).
Qgil's last post goes lightyears, IMO, toward addressing the number 1 concern here.
Maybe it needs to be stressed that most people here are adults. They know the world isn't black or white. They know that Nokia wil not always explain every minute detail, nor will the company give up trade secrets.
I daresay not one single person here expects that, nor do they expect Nokia employees to live in the forum. ;)
So IMO the best way to bridge this alleged gap is through periodic frank, honest dialog that recognizes the intelligence and earnestness of parties on both sides and dispenses with any disingenuous dialog at all. I am heartened by ragnar and Qgil's posts. Just those few posts are worth more, IMO, than 90% of the blathering here... mine most certainly included.
I can't provide a boilerplate example of what improved communications would look like. I think that has to be hashed out, and I think it should. But the outreach this weekend was a helluva start, and proved me wrong in at least one way. I'd eagerly welcome more of that. :D
Thanks guys.
EDIT: and please keep in mind-- sometimes a simple "we can't answer that yet, hang on" is enough. ANything beats a no-answer. Again: this isn't black and white. We have an infinite palette to work with. ;)
Milhouse
2007-07-07, 21:44
I wish Nokia could participate in this forum just as the TiVo (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/index.php?), Slim Devices (http://forums.slimdevices.com/) and Infrant (http://www.infrant.com/forum/index.php) guys (to name but three) participate in their forums to help nurture the community surrounding their products. I'm pretty sure their high profile (ie. web forum rather than low profile mailing list) involvement has resulted in a happier community and increased sales of devices. Many casual end users don't want to read or post to mailing lists and it's amazing how good the vibe can be when end users are able to communicate directly with the people that are behind their product.
While I appreciate a nokia.com member can't give away company secrets, I see little reason why a more informed and better connected Nokian can't assist members here with some of the issues that are raised through this forum. Many of us try to get other members to raise bugs or vote on existing bugs, but beyond that there is often little we can do to help as we often don't know all the answers! :)
Milhouse, note that your 3 examples belong to different categories: http://www.tivocommunity.com/ is an independent site while Slim Devices and Infrant forums are official. About the TiVo example, is that participation about user support or something else like unveiling future enhancements and discussing roadmapping stuff?
I still think the right place to have Nokia speakers talking about new stuff must be in Nokia/maemo spaces. If we come to ITT first then maemo followers will complain, and we can't perform well in both spaces (and if we do a third might come and ask to be "supported" as well).
We are going to open a web/forum interface to the maemo mailing lists, so everybody is happy. For instance, this is something that we haven't commented in maemo yet. :cool:
Yes, Mil, I've also seen forums where the companies were VERY heavily involved... and some (like Dell's and Creative's) where the purchasers were utterly ignored for the most part, and treated rudely when they were acknowledged. The latter doesn't help business. ;)
I'm not sure why ragnar and Qgil feel they have to insert caveats about forum participation levels. That's a very narrow way of responding to a very broad request for occasional feedback/info/greetings/etc. ITT doesn't even have to be the venue for such dispensations-- posters here, as we all know, are very adept at sniffing out releases from wherever and ferrying them back here. I know I'm beating a dead horse, but the critical point here seems to be overlooked: a periodic "we are still alive!!!" on some official or semi-official outlet.
Also, as everyone here may know there has been some grumbling over reactions to bugs and feature requests at bugzilla. I've seen cases where user input was shut down pretty swift and hard, sometimes before the respondent really understood the post. That's not good. The customer is always right. ;)
EDIT: Qgil beat me to posting. Hopefully mine answers his points effectively. If not I am always willing to work toward understanding.
Milhouse
2007-07-07, 22:27
Milhouse, note that your 3 examples belong to different categories: http://www.tivocommunity.com/ is an independent site while Slim Devices and Infrant forums are official. About the TiVo example, is that participation about user support or something else like unveiling future enhancements and discussing roadmapping stuff?
Correct, the TiVo community web site is a more direct comparison but the point about all three remains the same - high levels of direct communication between end users and manufacturer/developer. On the TiVo site, TiVoPony is the Product Marketing Manager and way back when TiVo first started (circa 1999) he was the "evangelist" for the product, assisting with queries and problems but also promoting the community and bridging the void between end user and vendor. That community is now huge, and on the whole it's a happy one and I think their policy to evangelise the product through such a direct communication medium enabled the community to grow as rapidly as it did.
The Slim Devices and Infrant forums are slightly different, but it's rare that you find the product designer or CEO chipping into conversations as you do on the Slim Devices forum! :) Infrant is a very helpful site where the Infrant employees always try to give answers when users ask questions, even if it's "I don't know" or "I can't discuss that".
I still think the right place to have Nokia speakers talking about new stuff must be in Nokia/maemo spaces. If we come to ITT first then maemo followers will complain, and we can't perform well in both spaces (and if we do a third might come and ask to be "supported" as well).
Announcements will filter down to the forum eventually as there are plenty of people here who read both maemo mailing lists, however I think the forum caters to a different audience than the mailing lists. This site is where your end users hang out, your paying customers... TiVo understood this! :) It might be tough to strike a balance between mailing list and forum, but I'm sure it should be possible.
We are going to open a web/forum interface to the maemo mailing lists, so everybody is happy. For instance, this is something that we haven't commented in maemo yet. :cool:
Hopefully enough members of this forum will join up and post in the maemo users forum/mailing list, but beware of fragmentation - I still don't think it would be wise to ignore this place!
Milhouse
2007-07-07, 22:41
Yes, Mil, I've also seen forums where the companies were VERY heavily involved... and some (like Dell's and Creative's) where the purchasers were utterly ignored for the most part, and treated rudely when they were acknowledged. The latter doesn't help business. ;)
Hehe, I can imagine that could be bad for business! :)
And of course, poor customer service and a poor repair experience can also be bad for business, because that's what a number of us have endured when dealing with Nokia regarding 770 and N800s, and we often have little idea who to contact in order to help us. Quite often the only accurate advice new users get is when they visit _this_ site, and I gave up asking questions on the Nokia support forum where the N800 is sidelined in a "other devices" sub section with almost zero traffic of any substance.
If other Internet Tablet devices are launched in future (eg. Intel) and become supported by this forum then I wouldn't be surprised to see an Intel evangelist (or two) posting here from time to time. This site needs a Nokia evangelist - which does, I think, bring this thread full circle. ;)
Textrat, although I haven't always agreed on the verbiage you chose in some of your posts, I do applaud your efforts to advocate. However, it is not unimaginable Nokia's stance on your participation as such. In fact I would have been surprised if a major corporation acted any differently.
After spending millions of dollars crafting and promoting the message they want to get across, they usually want as much control over it as possible.
Now here is the rub for N800 users and perhaps qgil can provide some insight...
What is Nokia's N800 message?
Who is the pro-typical user or targeted market?
How many units have been produced?
What were the projections?
Did the N770 meet it's sales forecasts?
What features and benefits were added to the N800 that would improve it's prospects of attaining its sales goals?
Published information from Nokia that answers these questions would go a long way toward quelling the speculation and rumors found in these and other forums. For those of us whose first Nokia purchase was the N800 these answers would relieve the anxiety over wondering if Nokia even had a plan for its future in the first place. I mean, what does Nokia tell its stockholders?
As far as bugzilla goes. It, itself has a dang bug in its web site security certificate. I only found this out after realizing the links I saved to the bug I did report were no longer valid. Bugzilla moved to a new address and left no redirects. (Major time suckage BTW, and I wonder how many don't bother using bugzilla because of this.)
And finally, an example of how little or no information can lead to speculation...
The bug I reported in February was closed in March with this comment,
------- Comment #4 From Aapo Makela 2007-03-30 10:22:46 GMT+3 [reply] -------
This will be fixed in future release. Dial up number field for packet data will function in full input mode.
Since this was not addressed in the latest release (4.2007.26-8), should I assume that;
a. They just forgot.
b. There is an additional future release that will address this.
or
c. They changed their minds.
What ever the case, lack of information leads to negative speculation.
It wasn't the entire company, of course, but one unnamed individual who challenged my desire to reach out more to this community.
One.
megabyte405
2007-07-08, 03:45
Consider this: Since 2005 many, many people have been asking for a decent port of Abiword to ITOS. It has become clear that there is not enough incentive from the OSS community to make this happen (which is not a complaint: OSS developers are allowed to do what they want; I don't pay their salary, so I don't get to set their agendas), and yet Nokia has done zilch all in this field. The same goes for a lot of other applications the community has been asking for.
It seems to me that Nokia is quite happy to take the easy road, hide themselves behind the perennial moniker: "It's an Internet Tablet, not a PDA!" and just sit back and assume they are great contributors to the Open Source movement.
Can I just clear up this AbiWord bit once and for all? Nokia's INdT out of Brasil actually ported AbiWord to Maemo/Hildon themselves, and contributed the patch back. They also contributed the initial ODT support to AbiWord, for which we are grateful. I'm also told that they contributed the build of 2.4.6 available on the AbiSource site.
Now, that brings us to today. Everybody using AbiWord on the N800 is using a build for the 770, unless someone has a build from Aleksandyr (sp?), which is not the official, upstream hildon port. As such, since the N800 Bora maemo is ABI-incompatible (cannot depend on functions being callable in the same way) with Mistral/770, certain functions in the fully Hildonized AbiWord don't work properly: for instance, it will crash on N800 if the tablet wakes back up.
I am hoping that most of these issues can be resolved with a recompile. AbiWord is maintained by a small group of volunteer hackers, and while developers do occasionally get sponsored to work on it, no such activity that I know of has taken place on the Maemo port in a while. I have been with the community for several years, and am currently a Google Summer of Code student, working on the AbiCollab facility. While it's not a part of my project description, I do plan to at least attempt to get AbiCollab running on the N800 as well. In addition, a forum member here did the "right thing" and reported the DOC import problem upstream - in our bugzilla. One of our developers committed a possible fix, and as soon as I can, I will be testing that out. I'm working to get all the information and sources (specifically the debian packaging files) needed to get AbiWord working properly on the N800 together, however, until I hear back from several people, it can't happen yet, and because the folks I am asking aren't being funded to work on AbiWord on Maemo, I can't guarantee when they'll get back to me.
Now, back to the positives. The embedded environment (like N800, OLPC, etc) is important to AbiWord, and so improvements across all embedded platforms are on their way. The official Hildonization still exists and should still be buildable - I just need to get proper versions of the dependencies. We do care, and I am doing what I can to get an N800 build out there for you and for me, but at this point we're volunteers standing on the shoulders of paid giants. Right now, Google requires that my priority be AbiCollab, but I'll try to sneak in some Maemo/Nokia time in there, since I want to use Abi on my N800 just as much as you do - it's part of why I got it.
For those of you turned off by the length of this post (writing a lot is an annoying habit of mine), here's the condensed version. Nokia/INdT did a lot for AbiWord in the past, and we are grateful. The N800 issues with AbiWord are not evidence of some great fundamental flaw in AbiWord, but merely a caveat of AbiWord being so well integrated with Maemo that the upgrade from Mistral to Bora breaks it. As a volunteer, I'm working to get AbiWord built properly for the N800, and will keep an eye on it to ensure it is available in the future, preferably (I don't see why not) on both the 770 and N800 platforms.
Please be nice to the other AbiWord folks - I'm newer and so have more patience. If you want to help, file useful bug reports at http://bugzilla.abisource.com , or contribute source and binary packages of the AbiWord dependencies to me (just PM).
Thanks for your patience and understanding! I want AbiWord to rock on N800, I just need some time!
Thank you! The fact remains that reviews, for example, of the iPhone mention that you can read Word docs in it. Some of the reviews of the N800 mention that you can't do that. Abiword is one of the last hopes for solving that problem. This problem is a deal killer for many prospective purchasers of the N800. Word must be the main doc handler for what, 90% of the computer-using public? (WAG) Unless Nokia is not interested in selling N800s, this problem should be something Nokia itself worries about.
Fortunately, most purchasers don't realize that the N800 is totally Word incompatible. If there was a little notice that all purchasers of the N800 automatically got saying that it doesn't work with Word docs, my guess is that sales of the N800 would drop to about 20% of what they are now, which I think isn't all that big anyway.
I am saying this not to be a malcontent, because I love my N800, but because frank discussion is the traditional remedy against dumb corporations.
This thread is very interesting. The key issue is imo:
ITs were launched to surf on internet but they re so versatile and ''evolutive'' that they're expected to become PDA and smartphone. And naturally solve the main issues ( PAN)
People on this forum know it is possible. to Nokia, it may cause internal competition, at least at the resource allocation level.
It doesn't happen fast enough from the end-users point of view, given the competition,and this forum and this thread are the echo of this anxiety.
However we re seing a good reaction. let's see...
I don't care what anybody says, the eventual trend is for a do everything device that fits in your pocket. Hands up, all those who, given the choice of buying a phone + internet browser + pim + camera + computer and another device that was just a phone and another device that was just an internet device, how many of you would go for separate phones and internet browsers? I only have so many pockets, so I want one mp3 player +camera + phone + web browser + etc. That has to be the wave of the future.
In a few years, wireless will be everywhere, so the N800 is perfectly positioned to be the all-in-one cheap device. A free Skype is bound to be more popular than a $40 a month ATT account.
So Nokia is sitting in the catbird seat (whatever that is!) if it only realizes it. "Tomorrow's Internet today" could be its motto, unless it's already taken.
benny1967
2007-07-08, 08:14
Don't you know?
Seriously, no. I made I comparison that's perfectly valid from my point of view, and all you do is say it's seriously flawed (thank you very much) - without going any further into it. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to think of your statements.
I don't care what anybody says, the eventual trend is for a do everything device that fits in your pocket. Hands up, all those who, given the choice of buying a phone + internet browser + pim + camera + computer and another device that was just a phone and another device that was just an internet device, how many of you would go for separate phones and internet browsers? I only have so many pockets, so I want one mp3 player +camera + phone + web browser + etc. That has to be the wave of the future.
In a few years, wireless will be everywhere, so the N800 is perfectly positioned to be the all-in-one cheap device. A free Skype is bound to be more popular than a $40 a month ATT account.
So Nokia is sitting in the catbird seat (whatever that is!) if it only realizes it. "Tomorrow's Internet today" could be its motto, unless it's already taken.
First, Tomorrow s Internet Today stands for T.I.T. I don't know if this is smart ;-)
Second: Although it is agreed a all-in-one device is THE solution, it raises issues:
- The minimum size of the screen to browse comfortably and efficiently is the Nokia IT screen size. I ve been comparing E90 (top of the range in Nokia), HTC devices etc, no way, I won't surf on anything smaller.
- No we won't carry our N800 (no matter how much we love them) anywhere anytime. We won't take it to the beach, to nighclub, to ski, etc etc. It s too big, and it s too fragile. the rest, yes.
So, however we need the IT to do absolutely everything, we still need small cell phones. They could be a module pairing with other devices (laptops, IT, etc).
Karel Jansens
2007-07-08, 10:24
First, Tomorrow s Internet Today stands for T.I.T. I don't know if this is smart ;-)
Second: Although it is agreed a all-in-one device is THE solution, it raises issues:
- The minimum size of the screen to browse comfortably and efficiently is the Nokia IT screen size. I ve been comparing E90 (top of the range in Nokia), HTC devices etc, no way, I won't surf on anything smaller.
- No we won't carry our N800 (no matter how much we love them) anywhere anytime. We won't take it to the beach, to nighclub, to ski, etc etc. It s too big, and it s too fragile. the rest, yes.
So, however we need the IT to do absolutely everything, we still need small cell phones. They could be a module pairing with other devices (laptops, IT, etc).
Let's not forget the (IMHO) most important point: Nokia launched an Internet Tablet and meant for it to be OSS and community-driven (they made that abundantly clear). The community, in turn, has made it clear to Nokia that they want the Internet Tablet to be more than just a couch-surfer. Isn't it now up to Nokia to follow the community's lead?
Karel Jansens
2007-07-08, 10:25
Seriously, no. I made I comparison that's perfectly valid from my point of view, and all you do is say it's seriously flawed (thank you very much) - without going any further into it. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to think of your statements.
Does it worry you that you're not sure what to think of my statements?
Let's not forget the (IMHO) most important point: Nokia launched an Internet Tablet and meant for it to be OSS and community-driven (they made that abundantly clear). The community, in turn, has made it clear to Nokia that they want the Internet Tablet to be more than just a couch-surfer. Isn't it now up to Nokia to follow the community's lead?
Yes, agreed, and it s seems that it s when the community starts to be very p-o about lack of feedback on the urgeing issues that things seem to move. well at least on this forum.
The problem might be that the community will always lead in this kind of OSS environment. That can be scary for the number 1 cellphone giant, litterally owning Symbian. Nokia ships one million phones a day....
OTOH, Linux environment may be the future.
IMHO, this is essentially an interface problem between the community and Nokia.
How would a car manufacturer do if its design/maufacture/market flow was "Open Source"?
- Do not hesitate letting Nokia know about your preferred examples of corporations dealing with the communities around their products. Thanks for the TiVo info. We can improve, we can learn from others.
- We need to improve our dialog with the community, agreed. We have got some progress with the developers, but this is not enough to solve the equation of the pure end users. We will discuss this internally (after July).
- "What is Nokia's N800 message?" http://nokia.com/n800 - or what was the question?
- "Who is the pro-typical user or targeted market?" Mmm something like people interested in new technologies, willing to be always online and willing to experiment new ways of using the Internet, the social web, etc. But I'm not a marketing/sales guy.
- "How many units have been produced?" Don't know / Can't answer.
- "What were the projections?" Don't know / Can't answer.
- "Did the N770 meet it's sales forecasts?" Don't know / Can't answer.
- "What features and benefits were added to the N800 that would improve it's prospects of attaining its sales goals?" It's not about "prospects of attaining sales goals" because the sales goals of the 770 and the N800 are different. The 770 opened a totally new product line, with all the risks, opportunities and the unknown. The N800 was released integrating the 770 experience and looking for a wider market within the Nseries context. We keep learning and accumulating experience.
- As time goes and the Internet Tablet project evolves, the context of the tablets involve more customers, developers and Nokia partnerships. It also implies a maturization of the platform, even if it is still not consolidated as i.e. the Linux desktop. Besides, Nokia learned a lesson the day the development support (different from the customer support) for the 770 was discontinued. N800 owners benefit from all this.
- http://bugs.maemo.org was reopened to public access few days ago, see http://maemo.org/news/view/1183519122.html
- Aapo Makela couldn't answer on 2007-03-30 in which release was his fix applied. Last month we announced maemo 4.0 Chinook and the following releases Diablo and Elephanta. You can ask back in your bug report and the developer should be able to tell you in which relase the fix is implemented.
- INdT is not part of Nokia, it's an independent organization funded by Nokia. Even if we discuss and coordinate efforts, they are a different entity.
- Word documents are important in computer usage but are not as relevant from an Internet centric point of view. That has been the rationale until now. If you notice as for today there is not even Windows media support, and they are an essential part of nowadays Internet use. I'd say one day the IT OS will support Word documents, but th are other priorities first. Follow the process if you want to push that feature over our plans, please.
- Yes, everybody wants the magic device that does everything. We focus our attention on the parts we consider essential, and we try not to block the community about all the rest. See for instance the Java support, they are getting organized and I bet at some point they will achieve the level of support most users need.
- "Isn't it now up to Nokia to follow the community's lead?" What about a co-leadership. Also think about this: most of the IT OS is based on open source software developed completely upstream, and we are aligned to the GNOME Mobile project, the Linux kernel team, the Debian project... Isn't this a way to follow the community? Please don't think exclusively on th "community of customers", specially when referring to open source.
- Nokia is not scared about the OSS community and its willingness to lead. Nokia wants to be a good citizen in this community and wants to make the most of the combined potential of energies, for the benefit of both sides (if they are "sides").
Many thanks for the feedback....
True you announced maemo 4.0 Chinook and the following releases Diablo and Elephanta. But, it wasn't clear until now whether they were for the N800 or a completely new tablet.
And my point is made. A little feedback to the community goes a long way. :)
BTW, what ever happened to the covers? Will they ever be produced?
I disagree on the 'wont carry the n800' - I've taken mine camping, nightclubbing, renaissance fairing, to the beach - it is not big, heavy or very fragile. Short of hammering the screen with something, I think it is quite durable. Before I got the silicone skin on mine, it took a number of tumbles from me shirt pocket to the deck flawlessly.
I think the 'community' is always going to be clamoring for 'more! more!' , and rightfully so, but development is in the hands of those who know how to do it. I wish I knew how. I explored it a bit and was impressed by all the tutorials and such that are available for maemo developers. So I don't think they are resisting, it is just a matter of time and programmers availability. Open source means Nokia is not on the hook for everything, methinks.
benny1967
2007-07-08, 16:39
Does it worry you that you're not sure what to think of my statements?
Not to the extent that I couldn't sleep or such ... It's just not helpful for further communication (which this forum is supposed to be all about).
Hey Karel and Benny: recalibrate your verbal trebuchets. You're launching past each other and the rest of us are getting covered in something brown and stinky.
:p
benny1967
2007-07-08, 17:57
/me hands Texrat a clean towel and opens the window. Sorry, I'll try not to do it next time ;)
The N800 case should be ready in 2-3 WEEKS (edited), perhaps a little more. Answered a couple of days ago at http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-users/2007-July/005750.html
Milhouse
2007-07-08, 18:39
The N800 case should be ready in 2-3, perhaps a little more. Answered a couple of days ago at http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-users/2007-July/005750.html
Thanks Quim. By the way, that's 2-3 weeks in case anyone is wondering! :)
I did mention it here (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=57052#post57052) after your announcement on the mailing list. :D
It seems to me that Nokia is quite happy to take the easy road, hide themselves behind the perennial moniker: "It's an Internet Tablet, not a PDA!"
In my humble opinion the current road is not easy: Nokia is creating a new category of products for the mainstream public and is doing it in a pioneering way, combining own development with a deep collaboration with several open source projects. Others are following now this strategy and they seem to be doing some steps pretty well. But Nokia started earlier and now has two devices, an IT OS, the maemo development platform and several applications out there, in the real world. And here we are, working hard to bring more stuff.
We try to do our best overall. We are far from perfect but we are not taking any easy road either.
Karel Jansens
2007-07-08, 19:17
Hey Karel and Benny: recalibrate your verbal trebuchets. You're launching past each other and the rest of us are getting covered in something brown and stinky.
:p
I'm done.
(Note: we can't all achieve your high standards, as in your eloquent exchanges with Euchreprof). :rolleyes:
- Yes, many times Nokia developers don't know or can't talk or even are not sure if they can talk about topics not under their own responsibility. Don't blame at them: they are professional developers putting a lot of compromise and passion beyond their contract and official objectives.
Of course I don't blame them, that's what I said in my first post ; it's good that they participate, but they should not be the only ones.
- About gathering support for features (or bugs): never underestimate the voting feature at http://bugs.maemo.org . Mobilize your audience to vote on the features you want to push. Voting is easy for them. We do look at those numbers.
...even for ITOS2006 bugs ? :-)
Just to clarify: I'm not a developer. My role is product manager of the maemo development platform. Improving the communication with developers and power users is one of my responsibilities. I'm the maintainer of http://maemo.org/intro/roadmap.html . I generally don't know the answers but I can help channeling questions to the right people.
Qim, I believe that most reasonable people over here are not asking for more than that. Knowing that they are being listened to usually leads people to express themselves better than when they are just venting off. This thread has already taken a new tack after your intervention ; if you, or someone like you, were to pop in like this at regular intervals (like once a month), it would probably set a lot of things straight.
As an example of the above:
- OS2007HE: http://maemo.org/news/view/1183720952.html
Hah, news posted almost as I was typing my own post, I hadn't seen it... Thanks for the pointer, that's very good news!
(I could care less about Skype, that's why I'd prefer a good SIP client :-)
- No we won't carry our N800 (no matter how much we love them) anywhere anytime. We won't take it to the beach, to nighclub, to ski, etc etc. It s too big, and it s too fragile. the rest, yes.
I can understand that for the N800, with its backwards design. But *my* 770 certainly goes with me everywhere. It's been riding 40 km a day at the back of a bike since december 2005, and gone skiing, and to the beach, etc. (I'm long done with nightclubs though :-)
I do hope that with the N900 Nokia will return to a sturdy design like the 770 and its cover. Then it's not too big, not too heavy, and not fragile...
Milhouse
2007-07-08, 20:37
I can understand that for the N800, with its backwards design. But *my* 770 certainly goes with me everywhere. It's been riding 40 km a day at the back of a bike since december 2005, and gone skiing, and to the beach, etc. (I'm long done with nightclubs though :-)
Just yesterday I picked up my 770 for the first time in about 5 months and I was struck by how slim, small and light it felt compared to my N800. I used to take my 770 with me everywhere, the case/cover afforded it excellent protection as well as providing useful offline/online functionality - still an important consideration for some of us! I now take my N800 to fewer places because it lacks the protection and it's bulkier than the 770 - the N800 is far less trouser pocket friendly.
I do hope that with the N900 Nokia will return to a sturdy design like the 770 and its cover. Then it's not too big, not too heavy, and not fragile...
The "N900" can learn a lot from the 770, and far less from the N800.
Thanks Quim. By the way, that's 2-3 weeks in case anyone is wondering! :)
I did mention it here (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=57052#post57052) after your announcement on the mailing list. :D
Proof the system works. ;)
I'm done.
(Note: we can't all achieve your high standards, as in your eloquent exchanges with Euchreprof). :rolleyes:
If you check the record, you'll see that was mostly one-sided, Karel. I quit responding to his stuff early on-- everyone ELSE volleyed with him. You guys lectured me anyway, AFTER I quit exchanging with him. Kinda silly. I'm still waiting for the realization to hit a few of you. What's the holdup?
Besides, I was kidding you two. Benny got that. :p
TIT, Tommorw's Internet Today! Not bad. I can't quite come up with the perfect concept, but something like
TIT: Suck on this, Internet users! Followed of course by a picture of the N800.
In my humble opinion the current road is not easy: Nokia is creating a new category of products for the mainstream public and is doing it in a pioneering way, combining own development with a deep collaboration with several open source projects. Others are following now this strategy and they seem to be doing some steps pretty well. But Nokia started earlier and now has two devices, an IT OS, the maemo development platform and several applications out there, in the real world. And here we are, working hard to bring more stuff.
We try to do our best overall. We are far from perfect but we are not taking any easy road either.
Qim, I don't think anyone is saying that all the systems work you have been doing on Linux, Maemo, Hildon, and user interfaces was easy. We who saw it from the start, with ITOS2005 onwards, had the ABI change in 2006, then the API incompatibilities in 2007, more or less understood the need for them, grumbled, and accepted them.
But this is just the infrastructure, the foundation. Something users take for granted, however hard it may have been to create. They also mostly take for granted that any pocketable, computer-like device will carry PIM software, and no amount of repeating the "it's not a PDA" mantra will change that.
People here have the most trouble accepting that, perhaps because they know that while you actually have been pioneering a new domain and creating new things, the part that Nokia is adamantly refusing to do is definitely NOT innovative, and is in fact so mundane that it's understandable they look at it as the "easy" part.
Ever since the 1990's, pocketable devices like the Psions and Palms and others have had PIM software.
Heck, Psion in 1997 with the Series5 was also "creating a new category of products for the mainstream public and doing it in a pioneering way". They wrote their own 32-bit OS, EPOC32 (which later became Symbian). And they did it alone. And it could edit Word docs and Excel sheets and had an agenda that could sync with Outlook. And yes, it also had a browser and email software :-)
Sharp did the same with Linux some years ago on the Zaurus line, so it's not like it's out of reach.
If Nokia wanted to, it would be in an even easier position today : Abiword and Gnumeric are known to run on the tablets, a little corporate incentive could turn them into properly Hildonized tools. Nokia is also one of the main creators and proponents of SyncML in its phones ; a calendar on the tablet with a SyncML plugin would let it synchronize with just about anything, including Outlook and Google...
Of course, it could be even simpler to just port Java :-)
Since 2005, we have seen many one-man efforts produce useful, sometimes innovative tools for maemo : maemo mapper, mplayer, abiword, gnumeric, minimo, GPE... Some projects are lively and well integrated, some obviously have resource problems and can't keep up ; some seem to lie fallow after a promising start, like Opened-hand's Dates and the elusive native SIP client...
From the outside it certainly seems like the right nudge at the right time from Nokia could have turned either of these projects from prototype hacks to usable tools for the end user - especially the stupid one who doesn't understand that he *doesn't* need PIM software :-)
One can't help feeling there are a lot of lost opportunities here, and also a contradiction with the "deep collaboration with open source projects" manifesto. Especially as it is clear that in the meantime, resources are also consumed in partnerships like Navicore, Skype et al.
Quim, thanks again for your participation. i finally found your June 1 slide show... >> http://www.slideshare.net/gofull/58688/1
Well done, It answers a lot.
But this is just the infrastructure, the foundation. Something users take for granted, however hard it may have been to create. They also mostly take for granted that any pocketable, computer-like device will carry PIM software, and no amount of repeating the "it's not a PDA" mantra will change that.
Ever since the 1990's, pocketable devices like the Psions and Palms and others have had PIM software.
Heck, Psion in 1997 with the Series5 was also "creating a new category of products for the mainstream public and doing it in a pioneering way". They wrote their own 32-bit OS, EPOC32 (which later became Symbian). And they did it alone. And it could edit Word docs and Excel sheets and had an agenda that could sync with Outlook. And yes, it also had a browser and email software :-)
Sharp did the same with Linux some years ago on the Zaurus line, so it's not like it's out of reach.
From the outside it certainly seems like the right nudge at the right time from Nokia could have turned either of these projects from prototype hacks to usable tools for the end user - especially the stupid one who doesn't understand that he *doesn't* need PIM software :-)
There are many sides to this issue, naturally. Resources are never infinite. Suppose you want to create a new type of device. Do you start the work by providing new features (great browsing) or existing features... Then again, most people that use PIM already have their PIM devices and PIM ecosystem ready. Implementing PIM functionality properly definitely is not a trivial issue.
However, If I can play the devil's advocate here, the _one_ question I would really like to ask from you is:
If PIM is really such a great feature, then why didn't Psions or Sharp Zauruses or any number of PDA devices in the last 10 or so years, any of those that provided the features you were talking about, then become wildly successful?
Milhouse
2007-07-08, 22:32
However, If I can play the devil's advocate here, the _one_ question I would really like to ask from you is:
If PIM is really such a great feature, then why didn't Psions or Sharp Zauruses or any number of PDA devices in the last 10 or so years, any of those that provided the features you were talking about, then become wildly successful?
Psions were wildly successful and this recent article (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06/26/psion_special/) should help clear up why they ultimately failed (mainly due to poor management who lacked the nerve to innovate, among other reasons including the sale of some operating system software to Nokia...)
As far as PIM is concerned, I can understand to an extent why Nokia don't want to provide it (is it because it competes with the E-series phones?) but if PIM is a barrier to customers buying the Internet Tablet, doesn't it become a pointless debate? Shouldn't Nokia be offering customers what they want rather than telling customers how it should be?
(Lack of) PIM is always mentioned in reviews of Nokia Internet Tablets, and it's a question that never fails to be asked when I show my tablet to other people - their reaction when I say there is no supported PIM/sync functionality is never positive, and generally they rapidly lose interest because they already have a PIM device and don't see the need to carry yet another device in addition to their PIM.
Look at Palm with the Foleo, as they seem to "get it". While I don't necessarily agree with the form factor of this device (too big) I have to admit that it offers compelling functionality that could also be offered on the Internet Tablets.
In a few years instead of asking why did Psion fail, maybe we will be asking why did Nokia (Internet Tablets) fail... and I hope the answer isn't "because they didn't offer PIM". ;)
Yeah, we can't blame a good device for its failure. The majority of the time, poor execution, especially not properly gaging and responding to user demand, is to blame for such fiascos. History is replete with examples.
There is no awesome product or advent that piss-poor management can't destroy.
EDIT: generalizations aside, I'll back the local consensus opinion. Even if Nokia itself does not offer PIM functionality, the proper API hooks need to be there. And if nothing else, as a hardcore user I want to be able to sync my contacts. I don't care what semantics are employed to dismiss that as not in the tablet's scope, people want it. They want to be able to sync with Outlook or their phones or any other service and manage ONE set of contacts that all devices share. We're sensible that way. And we're lazy. We're efficient to a fault. PCs and smartphones have spoiled us on the concept and we don't understand why another communications device, regardless of its raisson d'etre, doesn't offer that basic functionality. We want to email and Skype people in our Outlook contacts from our tablet if that's what we have with us. Better yet, we want an online service like Google or Yahoo to manage our contacts and the tablet to take advantage of it.
We don't care that this is an N-series device. This is what we want.
I know from sad experience that there are some very rank assumptions made within the walls of Nokia, ones that have little bearing with the reality I experience. One of my favorites: "Nokia phones don't sell well in the US because Americans don't like them". Rubbish. There are other factors, and it behooves us to perform root cause analysis, construct MEANINGFUL, well-designed, scientific polls and find exactly what they are.
No more assumptions. No more excuses. No more disconnects between the company and its customers. And no, in saying that I am NOT pointing fingers at the hardworking tablet developers. They're doing what they've been instructed to do.
Then again, most people that use PIM already have their PIM devices and PIM ecosystem ready. Implementing PIM functionality properly definitely is not a trivial issue.
Indeed, and as Milhouse explains there are some counter-arguments here. However, to play Devil's Advocate myself:
Why did Nokia do the Internet Tablet? Lots of mobile phones and PDAs have Web and email access on the move (most of them have better email than the IT OS devices). "Most people that use Internet on the move already have their portable Internet devices and ecosystem already." Can you see the logical fallacy of your argument?
I used to be a heavy PIM user on my Psion (and never used the sync!), but I'm not going to carry around a Revo to act as a diary *and* an N800 to access the web.
Arguably, I'd probably use the Revo more and fall back to my phone or EPOC Web/Opera for web access. So now I'm PIMless.
- Open source SIP client: I have asked around and yes there will be SIP functionality based on open source components at some point. More info probably to come as soon as some of the people involved come back from holidays. In any case there are not many secrets about this if you follow the Telepathy development upstream.
- PIM. While SIP means one and only one thing to everybody knowing about SIP, we can't tell the same about PIM. This is not a question we are avoiding, not even publicly: http://desdeamericaconamor.org/blog/node/339 . My request when I wrote that was to leave the "PIM" word behind and move into feature descriptions. I believe one day the tablets will accomplish most of the wished features (that fit in our strategy and understanding of where are the trends going). I also believe that we won't be blocking anyone to develop PIM functionality at their own taste and urgencies. You can wait us or you can push us following the process and being accurate about the functionality you really want.
- Please forget that thing about the tablet not having feature X, Y, Z not to compete with other Nokia products. It doesn't play any role, specially not in the PIM topic. It is not difficult to see how Nokia is launching products that compete with other Nokia products, it is a way to have a rich portfolio and keep being in the top.
- The PIM/sync equation nowadays on top of maemo (say Linux + GNOME + Nokia tablet) is not simple, no matter how you look at it. First you have many platform components to be synchronized, then you have a mixture of open and closed protocols and formats to support officially if you want to make end users happy, and on top of this you have some significant UI challenges. Sure, it can be done and very probably someone will do it (perhaps Nokia). But it's not simple, and perhaps slightly more complex than few years ago - specially if you want to design a good solution for the forthcoming years.
And 2 comments to Milhouse aside, totally personal:
1. "(Lack of) PIM is always mentioned in reviews of Nokia Internet Tablets". As a journalist my only conclusion of this is that many users of PIM software get curious about the tablets and write reviews about them. I don't think they are representative, no matter how much and how loud they insist about this. This is why I personally prefer to concentrate in feature requests, not buying the whole suite (but I don't decide about this topic in Nokia).
2. "Look at Palm with the Foleo, as they seem to "get it"." Well, if Palm doesn't "get" the PIM story, who will? Of course they look at their strengths and they push the PIM.
Oh, and also...
texrat: "Nokia phones don't sell well in the US because Americans don't like them". Have you *really* heard this within the walls of Nokia? I'm getting really curious about who you are and where do you work. The walls of my team and the whole Multimedia unit provide more intelligent arguments than this.
texrat: "No more assumptions. No more excuses. No more disconnects between the company and its customers." All these are bold assumptions themselves. You say you work at Nokia and you seem to know my team. Can you please provide examples of assumptions, excuses, disconnects - and how you would address them better? Since my identity is public it is easy for you to contact me in the way that suits you best. Your complaints are done at a community level, but you know or you could know all the internal facts. It is great to see that you have apparently clear and straight answers to all the issues. Please share the details, because as I see the picture inside/outside things are simply not as simple. Even if they are doable.
However, If I can play the devil's advocate here, the _one_ question I would really like to ask from you is:
If PIM is really such a great feature, then why didn't Psions or Sharp Zauruses or any number of PDA devices in the last 10 or so years, any of those that provided the features you were talking about, then become wildly successful?
Thanks for asking such an easy one :-)
Others have already answered most of it, but as it is asked from me here's my take :
As Mil said, Psion PDAs (series 3 and 5) actually were wildly successful, especially here in Europe, despite being very expensive. They still have a rabid fan base today, that will not use anything else. The Zaurus line, despite its age, is still very popular in Japan ; Sharp just couldn't be bothered to market it anywhere else. And Palm, of course, was top gun for a long time in its day.
The real sense of your question, I guess, and a very relevant one, is "where are PDAs today" ? My opinion is that PDA have faltered as a market because they were very specialized devices - they mostly did one thing right, the PIM part. Multimedia was so-so, Net access too, etc.
But that doesn't mean PIM functions have suddenly become irrelevant, just that users want devices that do many things. The dominant PIM devices today are smartphones, who also do music, video, GPS nav and of course voice.
See what I'm getting to ? ITs are all the rage now, but if they stick to their "I'm just an IT" motto, they could end up where the PDAs are now, soon enough, when more multi-purpose devices catch up...
texrat: "Nokia phones don't sell well in the US because Americans don't like them". Have you *really* heard this within the walls of Nokia? I'm getting really curious about who you are and where do you work. The walls of my team and the whole Multimedia unit provide more intelligent arguments than this.
texrat: "No more assumptions. No more excuses. No more disconnects between the company and its customers." All these are bold assumptions themselves. You say you work at Nokia and you seem to know my team. Can you please provide examples of assumptions, excuses, disconnects - and how you would address them better? Since my identity is public it is easy for you to contact me in the way that suits you best. Your complaints are done at a community level, but you know or you could know all the internal facts. It is great to see that you have apparently clear and straight answers to all the issues. Please share the details, because as I see the picture inside/outside things are simply not as simple. Even if they are doable.
I'll readily say I once worked for the Fort Worth production facility. While there I heard so many crazy things about what people did or did not want that had little or no bearing in reality. How did I know? I asked people. For instance, I heard many broad assumptins about what the youth market wanted that didn't sound right to me. So I conducted a survey of a computer gaming community, comprised mainly of 12 to 20 year olds. I got some very good feedback of what they wanted from a phone, and why they were choosing Motorola, Samsung and LG. I passed this information on to the proper channels, but I noted later in official communications that it wasn't considered seriously (one was our naming conventions-- management does not appear to understand the value young people place on silly phone names like RAZR, and how they sneer at our number schemes).
The same holds true for the internet tablets. One example of what I'm referring to can be found in bugzilla comments from Nokia. I can't provide a specific offhand but as I recall or rediscover one I will bring it up. Same for examples other than those in bugzilla.
As for my bold assumptions: you are correct. I was simplifying there for effect. Please note that I'm not meaning to slam Nokia; I love the company. But some Nokia execs appear reluctant to process negative feedback and it's something they need to do. There is a mounting frustration among the tablet users and occasional feelings of abandonment... and even if those feelings are more perception than reality, perception creates reality. One reality is that the reverse logistics process was horrible (that is not an exaggeration) and angered many, many people here. That is certainly not your fault, or mine-- but it is Nokia's. When people refer to Nokia (and that includes me) that address is not limited to any certain group; I get the feeling you sometimes think it means you. It's an address looking for an identifier, so if the shoe fits fine, if not, then it's not meant for that reader.
I also know that fulfilling some of the most desired requests is not that simple. I understand that there are priorities. But when I see this community's priorities not matching up with the company's I have to wonder if the proper pulse-taking and communications are taking place, and if both "sides" have the proper information to realize that either Feature X is just not feasible at this time or that Nokia needs to shift course to match the needs/wants of the customer base it wants to cultivate, maintain and expand. New and potential users will base decisions on whether or not to buy a tablets based on what they skim here. Believe it-- we've seen it.
People love the tablet. Ironically, it's a victim of its own success. Since it can do nearly anything, people want it to. That's a dilemma for Nokia, I realize. Personally I think your staff should be easily doubled-- but I'm aware you may not have 100% say over that.
Once again, I appreciate your recent efforts and I apologize for my lengthy posts. There is a lot to say. Speaking of which, are you aware you have PMs blocked? ;)
Milhouse
2007-07-09, 14:35
1. "(Lack of) PIM is always mentioned in reviews of Nokia Internet Tablets". As a journalist my only conclusion of this is that many users of PIM software get curious about the tablets and write reviews about them. I don't think they are representative, no matter how much and how loud they insist about this. This is why I personally prefer to concentrate in feature requests, not buying the whole suite (but I don't decide about this topic in Nokia).
"It has no PIM or sync capability" is a black/negative mark that is pretty common to all N800s reviews... adding PIM would be another tick in the box for the N800, but whether that is a good enough reason alone for adding PIM I don't know. I'd sure like PIM/sync functionality, and I suspect many others would too. Whether it can be delivered purely by the open source community, I don't know - integration with the OS would be nice.
2. "Look at Palm with the Foleo, as they seem to "get it"." Well, if Palm doesn't "get" the PIM story, who will? Of course they look at their strengths and they push the PIM.
What I mean here is that Palm "get it" because the Foleo is a "companion" to the mobile phone, which is a function I can very easily see the N800 performing by syncing up with S60 and other Symbian (and even Windows?) mobile phones etc. Why do I need two contact lists, one on my N800 and one on my Phone? Why not allow me to edit/view/search my contacts on my N800 but have them synced with the phone so all the details are available to me on the phone if/when I need to dial using only the phone? etc. etc.
The N800 as a "companion" probably can't be achieved without buy-in from Nokia as it cuts across several platforms, but the overall functionality could be quite compelling.
- Open source SIP client: I have asked around and yes there will be SIP functionality based on open source components at some point. More info probably to come as soon as some of the people involved come back from holidays. In any case there are not many secrets about this if you follow the Telepathy development upstream.
Qim, thanks for inquiring and answering about this. The way I see it, the problem lies in the "at some point" part. Almost ever since I've had my 770 (dec. 2005), there have been tantalizing (if sometimes obscure) hints now and then about some new step being taken towards that goal, generally mentioning Telepathy. And no, I don't follow its "development upstream" : all I see is that 19 months later there is still nothing that a normal user can install and use, and no commitment beyond "at some point". Meanwhile, we have seen several versions of Gizmo (which works on the 770, within its own proprietary limitations), and now Skype (which doesn't).
- PIM. While SIP means one and only one thing to everybody knowing about SIP, we can't tell the same about PIM. This is not a question we are avoiding, not even publicly: http://desdeamericaconamor.org/blog/node/339 . My request when I wrote that was to leave the "PIM" word behind and move into feature descriptions. I believe one day the tablets will accomplish most of the wished features (that fit in our strategy and understanding of where are the trends going). I also believe that we won't be blocking anyone to develop PIM functionality at their own taste and urgencies. You can wait us or you can push us following the process and being accurate about the functionality you really want.
As Texrat said, it is not a matter of thinking "black or white" here. Between having *NO* PIM functionality whatsoever (and trying to pretend that it doesn't matter :-), and trying to be all things to all people, there probably is a reasonable middle ground that would actually help reviews, reputation and sales, at an acceptable cost.
In local forums over here I have seen countless times questions such as "Can I open/edit my Word docs with this strange new thing ? My Excel sheets ?"... When the community answer is "No", most of the time people shrug and move on, even if this is not their #1 use case for a mobile device, because in their mind the IT moves from the "serious" to "toy" category. Nokia loses a sale, and they lose the opportunity to find out what innovative things the IT is *really* good for.
Again, compatibility with Word/Excel files (and OpenDocument, this being 2007!) could be achieved with properly packaged Abiword and Gnumeric maemo versions, in the proclaimed spirit of the tablets.
- The PIM/sync equation nowadays on top of maemo (say Linux + GNOME + Nokia tablet) is not simple, no matter how you look at it. First you have many platform components to be synchronized, then you have a mixture of open and closed protocols and formats to support officially if you want to make end users happy, and on top of this you have some significant UI challenges. Sure, it can be done and very probably someone will do it (perhaps Nokia). But it's not simple, and perhaps slightly more complex than few years ago - specially if you want to design a good solution for the forthcoming years.
The exact same remark applies here. How many times do we see the question "Can I sync my XXX calendar with this ?" ? How many potential users turn away and look no further when the answer is, "No, there isn't even a calendar" ?
Nokia only needs to choose and fulfill ONE value of "XXX" above and the point will be moot. Any of these look doable :
- Outlook. Probably 99% of potential users. My lowly Nokia 6021 phone has a calendar that syncs with Outlook through Nokia's own PC Suite. Same for Symbian phones, so it's not like rocket science. And on every forum on this planet in which there is at least one IT thread, there is at least one "Help ! Nokia PC Suite doesn't recognize my N800 !" post...
- SyncML. For the open-protocols crowd. Again, the expertise is in-house. And with the variety of SyncML software out there (for phones, palms, pocket PCs, Outlook etc.) that's a lot of birds killed with one stone...
- Google Cal. For the Web 2.0 diehards. Evidently the Maemo team is big on Google. Also the Maemo team is good at Python. So if TahitiBob can do it alone, they can do it too.
And of course, as Mil just said, synching with (at least Nokia) phones should be a no-brainer.
How's that for specs ? :-)
fpp, awesome post. Excellent example of details. You said it much better than I could, thanks.
Thanks for asking such an easy one :-)
Others have already answered most of it, but as it is asked from me here's my take :
As Mil said, Psion PDAs (series 3 and 5) actually were wildly successful, especially here in Europe, despite being very expensive. They still have a rabid fan base today, that will not use anything else. The Zaurus line, despite its age, is still very popular in Japan ; Sharp just couldn't be bothered to market it anywhere else. And Palm, of course, was top gun for a long time in its day.
Sorry to stick to this issue, but I disagree quite strongly on this. Let me start by saying that I love the Psion devices. The Psion 5 still does some things better than nearly any device out there in the market. I think it was a wildly successful device in many terms: engineering, design etc.
But I cannot really buy "wildly successful" in terms of popularity and sales. Nor to any other non-connected PDA device. Zaurus was discontinued some years ago. I don't believe it's a question of "not marketing". Truly great devices and services gain popularity with "zero marketing", and vice versa, no amount of marketing can help to really sell a non-useful device or service.
Quoting numbers from: http://www.ericlindsay.com/epoc/mhist.htm Be it 25000 Psions a month or 163000 devices year or whatever, that is nowhere near even moderately successful. By successful I mean mass market appeal. A device that the majority of people would seem worthwhile to buy. PDA's focusing on personal information management have never reached this target. Mobile phones are wildly successful.
However...
The real sense of your question, I guess, and a very relevant one, is "where are PDAs today" ? My opinion is that PDA have faltered as a market because they were very specialized devices - the mostly did one thing right, the PIM part. Multimedia was so-so, Net access too, etc.
But that doesn't mean PIM functions have suddenly become irrelevant, just that users want devices that do many things. The dominant PIM devices today are smartphones, who also do music, video, GPS nav and of course voice.
See what I'm getting to ? ITs are all the rage now, but if they stick to their "I'm just an IT" motto, they could end up where the PDAs are now, soon enough, when more multi-purpose devices catch up...
I do agree with this thing, however. I use PIM functions on my E61 phone, since it is my primary device. I use the PC suite to automatically sync with my Outlook calendar. Even if my tablet would have PIM functions, I simply wouldn't use them. Writing down the entries wouldn't be as comfortable or as fast as with my phone. I don't carry the tablet in my pocket all the time so that I could check my calendar or notes.
The IT currently isn't the primary device, it is a mobile companion device, next to my smartphone. I am not trying to say that PIM functions aren't useful in the right context and right device, but I don't really see the tablet currently being that right device. And once again, resources are not infinite.
Still, there are devices in the market that do only "one thing really well" - I guess you can name some of them - and they are wildly successful. If the PIM devices of yesteryear did PIM really well, and well, "nobody bought them", I at least think that tells something about having PIM on your non-primary device.
I think "wildly successful" needs to be quantified. The devices such as Psion found an incredibly strong following among some truly pioneering, ardent users. But were they "wildly popular" in general? No. Did they create and maintain a really dedicated legion of rabid fans? Oh yeah. They N800 has the same potential. Heck, I'd like to think the tablet platform can even exceed it, not just functionally but popularly... that all comes down to communication and execution.
Oh, and there's still some dissonance in your rebuttals, ragnar. One reason cell phones are incredibly more successful than PDAs could very well be their innate use combined with PIM functionality. ;)
Finally, some of use see the cell phone as the companion device. That's the point you're not quite getting. We use the phone as a mere modem and the N800 as the main device. Isn't that one of the beauties of Skype? To that end, we want our phone contacts synced to the tablet, so we can call people via Skype. And it doesn't take "infinite resources" to accomplish this, ragnar, so I'm hoping we can avoid those silly exaggerations and pretend we're realistic adults here. ;) It requires an extra head or three. Get Nokia to fund it. Based on the very obvious user feedback here, it will pay off. Or, keep telling the users (hyperbole ahead) they don't want what they want. Which tactic provides the most potential for success?
fpp, awesome post. Excellent example of details. You said it much better than I could, thanks.
Thanks. English is not my native language, and I tend to be somewhat perfectionist, so this does take time. And all this has been said before, but it's worth summing up now that we have @nokia ears around :-)
Milhouse
2007-07-09, 17:22
Quoting numbers from: http://www.ericlindsay.com/epoc/mhist.htm Be it 25000 Psions a month or 163000 devices year or whatever, that is nowhere near even moderately successful. By successful I mean mass market appeal.
Ragnar.... annual sales of 163,000 for the Psion 3a in 1994 is pretty damned good! Psion were/are a tiny company, and remember those figures are from THIRTEEN years ago when most people didn't know what a PDA was let alone know about or have access to the internet. And global corporations such as Nokia themselves were shifting nowhere near as many phones in 1994 as they do now. The Psion devices certainly had mass market appeal, it's just that in the early 1990s that mass market was significantly smaller than the tech savvy world we live in today.
I'm not sure what you're basing your judgment on, but some historical perspective might be in order. :)
Sorry to stick to this issue, but I disagree quite strongly on this. Let me start by saying that I love the Psion devices. The Psion 5 still does some things better than nearly any device out there in the market. I think it was a wildly successful device in many terms: engineering, design etc.
But I cannot really buy "wildly successful" in terms of popularity and sales. Nor to any other non-connected PDA device. Zaurus was discontinued some years ago. I don't believe it's a question of "not marketing". Truly great devices and services gain popularity with "zero marketing", and vice versa, no amount of marketing can help to really sell a non-useful device or service.
Actually the Zaurus line was only "officially" discontinued early this year, and despite this the latest models are still easily available through import dealers (like in Germany). I still think that if Sharp had localized, sold and supported them abroad the audience would have gone way beyond the enthusiast Linux hacker crowd, as it obviously did in Japan. Same for the Psions : if those machines had been at today's electronic gadgets prices, of course they'd had sold more. But they were available everywhere and visible in shops, which the tablets are not. To me both qualify as "successful".
Quoting numbers from: http://www.ericlindsay.com/epoc/mhist.htm Be it 25000 Psions a month or 163000 devices year or whatever, that is nowhere near even moderately successful. By successful I mean mass market appeal. A device that the majority of people would seem worthwhile to buy. PDA's focusing on personal information management have never reached this target. Mobile phones are wildly successful.
Don't you find it strange that enquiries about sales of the 770/N800 are met with polite demurral ? Don't you find it strange that even lowly phones carry PIM essentials as a matter of fact ?
I do agree with this thing, however. I use PIM functions on my E61 phone, since it is my primary device. I use the PC suite to automatically sync with my Outlook calendar. Even if my tablet would have PIM functions, I simply wouldn't use them. Writing down the entries wouldn't be as comfortable or as fast as with my phone. I don't carry the tablet in my pocket all the time so that I could check my calendar or notes.
Our different points of view definitely come from totally opposed use cases. My Tablet IS my primary device, as the Psion then the Zaurus were before. In fact I didn't have a phone until I bought the tablet, and I chose the cheapest Nokia model that had EDGE and BT at the time. I don't want a device that's more expensive than the tablet, with yet another keyboard and big screen. To me, a phone is a modem. Sometimes I speak into it, but not much. And I only use its calendar function because the tablet has none -- but I'd take GPE or Dates instead of that trinket any day if only they could sync with something.
Maybe Nokia employees have overly easy access to luxury phones, and that skews their judgment :-)
Oh, and there's still some dissonance in your rebuttals, ragnar. One reason cell phones are incredibly more successful than PDAs could very well be their innate use combined with PIM functionality. ;)
Finally, some of use see the cell phone as the companion device. That's the point you're not quite getting. We use the phone as a mere modem and the N800 as the main device. Isn't that one of the beauties of Skype? To that end, we want our phone contacts synced to the tablet, so we can call people via Skype. And it doesn't take "infinite resources" to accomplish this, ragnar, so I'm hoping we can avoid those silly exaggerations and pretend we're realistic adults here. ;) It requires an extra head or three. Get Nokia to fund it. Based on the very obvious user feedback here, it will pay off. Or, keep telling the users (hyperbole ahead) they don't want what they want. Which tactic provides the most potential for success?
I think Gil had it right when he asked for moving into specific features. Contact syncing in my books is a somewhat different feature than "PIM" in general. The tablet already has contact book synchronization features for the protocols it is supporting (gmail, jabber). Being able to get all the contacts from your phone ... well, if you can't call these contacts, that feature might not be so useful. For that specific feature, yes, it's already there to some extent. The Maemo Skype app afaik also does this for its contacts. As of infinite resources, I didn't mean that it would take infinite resources, rather that there isn't infinite resources to do every feature in the world.
But, doing "PIM" means so many things to different people, so I really think you could be specific in what exactly the device should be able to do. After that one could estimate how much work doing that would take.
In general, there is the issue of providing offline versus online applications. PIM is one good example of this. Hopefully we all agree that the real value of PIM comes from the fact that the information there is valid and sychronized throughout all the sources where this information is accessed from. There are online services that essentially allow the user to perform PIM actions (calendar, notes etc.) And such services can usually be developed to target multiple devices, the IT included.
That's also a part of the fundamental idea of an internet tablet device: instead of creating an offline client application for every feature/service that the user would want to use, the tablet (with its browser and other internet applications) should provide access to these online services. This is of course not yet fully realized, but it's an innate part of the thinking. Offline applications are costly to develop, maintain and update. Of course the issue is not black and white, but it is more on the range of shades: how much of a feature does the device provide on its online capabilities and how much is also available offline. With "infinite resources" there are thousands Nokia developers available for us and we create and maintain great offline clients for every conceivable feature, but that's really not the idea behind the internet tablet.
I agree with your points, ragnar, and it looks to me they've already been addressed in previous posts here... that includes the possibility of online contact hosting, which may very well be the preferred approach. I suggest a survey. ;)
Oh and I am REALLY LOVING this conversation lately!!! :D
Milhouse
2007-07-09, 18:08
The lack of a coherent PIM (even just Contacts) strategy on the Tablets is leading to the ridiculous situation where every communications application implements their own Contacts solution. Look at the situation we have today, Google Talk manages it's own contacts, Gizmo manages it's own contacts and now Skype also manages it's own completely seperate contacts list. I don't use the appalling eMail client on the Internet Tablet but that also has it's own database of email addresses which are seperate from every other application I've just mentioned.
If the Tablets had a coherent system-wide Contacts database, all these applications could tap into a single list and avoid the duplicated data, increased development effort and incompatible GUIs. Add a system-wide Calendar and To-Do list along with phone or PC syncing and voila, Internet Tablet PIM for the masses.
I'm creating a separate post to go off on a little "rant" here. ;)
Before it was even launched, the 770 had a scope. It had an agenda. Nokia defined the product and laid out their plans for its deployment. That included intended use.
Those last two words are key-- lay them aside for a moment.
The N800 refined this. Suddenly the device had a home: Multimedia Devices (hence the N prefix). Under that aegis, its intended use as an internet tablet was broadened a bit. Multimedia applications were now a must. The argument could be made that the current state of the Internet supports this, as Flash and other media formats are driving viewership. No contradiction, no fuzziness there... just an expanded scope. For sake of the point I'm going to make I'll gloss over the debate over how effective or ineffective this effort has been. The point is the scope.
Users have been of course thrilled over easter eggs like the FM radio, because it enables them to shed a device. It functions well enough that most are happy with this solution, from what I can see. But this can cause confusion for people being told the N800 is an INTERNET TABLET. The FM radio is sweet, but certainly not internet related.
The confusion is compounded further by, of all ironic aspects, the degree of openness and other functionality. A programmable Linux device! With WiFi! And VOIP! That's not an internet tablet folks-- that's a new form factor for laptops. Call it a palm top (:D).
So here we come to the point: the device's scope is, to an extent, now getting out of Nokia's hands. The users have taken the ball and run. They see potential that isn't confined by the borders of the Multimedia Device defintion. They see that this little jewel crosses into Enterprise Devices with swaggering ease... that is, as long as the support is there.
But Nokia sticks steadfastedly to prior goals. Qgil and ragnar now ask for community input (thank God for that!) on specifics but, we've already provided it, many times. Maybe it needs to now be hunted, gathered, collated and stapled for ease of consumption, but it's there! We've offered our feedback. We've explained our needs and wants ad infinitum. And now we the community find ourselves wrestling for a steering wheel because we're impatient with progress and argumentive over Nokia's current scope for the platform. Nokia isn't going to give up the bus, but maybe we can find consensus. Nokia would certainly benefit from listening to users that represent potential new customers and then changing course where viable to grab more market share.
I don't think the debate needs to be contentious though (we have recent proof right here) nor does it need to dwell on absolutes and unrealistic expectations. IMO what's needed here is a council. That's right: a body of community reps who can distill the chaos here into concise bullet points fit for the Powerpoint presentations that drive Nokia as a company (:D). I recommend people like Milhouse and fpp and thoughtfix and even that ol' curmudgeon Karel for starters. And there should be strong debate even among this body, so that all viewpoints are presented and no assumptions are presented as data. Maybe we even need a new forum section for Tablet Advocacy...lol.
Anyway, just more blathering from me I know... but what do you guys think?
/soapbox
If the Tablets had a coherent system-wide Contacts database, all these applications could tap into a single list and avoid the duplicated data, increased development effort and incompatible GUIs. Add a system-wide Calendar and To-Do list along with phone or PC syncing and voila, Internet Tablet PIM for the masses.
But: there *is* a system-wide Contacts database, the applications can tap into it. That was the thinking exactly originally, and that still is the thinking. It is extensible for new protocols and new services. However: Gizmo and Skype are external applications and services, they can choose to do so if they want it. But then again, they don't have to. So far, as you see, they didn't do so.
Okay, then further analysis is required: WHY didn't these developers tap into the system contacts provision? Is functionality missing? Does the API come up short? Is it an educational gap? Is it too hard? Are they too lazy?
As programmer myself I can readily assure tablet program folks that when presented with the choice of creating my own widget or tapping into available infrastructure, I'm going with door 2 every single time. No debate.
So-- why didn't they? That's Nokia's question to ask and solve.
Milhouse
2007-07-09, 18:44
But: there *is* a system-wide Contacts database, the applications can tap into it. That was the thinking exactly originally, and that still is the thinking. It is extensible for new protocols and new services. However: Gizmo and Skype are external applications and services, they can choose to do so if they want it. But then again, they don't have to. So far, as you see, they didn't do so.
They must have a reason for not using the system-wide contacts - there is no logic to having multiple contact lists, one for each application. Perhaps the use of a system-wide database should be "enforced" a little more strongly by Nokia or Maemo (not sure how, better guide lines/documentation? Peer pressure?) otherwise the end user experience ultimately suffers - it's immediately apparent that I'm entering the same data multiple times into the same device.
Agreed with Milhouse. If nothing else, Nokia needs to provide clear, definite leadership on an issue like this. Maybe not heavy-handed, but strong nonetheless.
Ragnar, I totally understand where you're coming from in this post (better than the previous ones, anyway :-).
Just three things :
- online vs offline : evidently that's the future... more so than the present. Today if I'm in a meeting and we're looking to program the next one, I don't have time to connect the tablet through BT then GPRS and launch the browser and pull down Google Cal or whatever. It has to be a local app with current data, as with the Psion or the Zaurus or good old 6021. Otherwise the tablet is a toy.
Likewise I could be proactive and mail myself the needed docs and spreadsheets for that meeting, so I can look them up in Google Mail's viewer. But it is still easier to have those reference files on my MMC and open them if needed with a local app, no ? Otherwise the tablet is a toy.
- long term vs short term : like any good technical team with a strong vision (almost since the Romans one might say :-), I suspect the maemo team has a tendency to think big, long-term and thus over engineer things. Than can be good, but only if short-term sales sustain the momentum until goals can be met. Not every company can or will push stuff at a loss for years until they wear off everyone else in the market and win by default, if you see what I mean. In 1995 the Psion guys set out to build the mother of all 32-bit embedded OSes, and they succeeded : EPOC32 was a jewel, and lives to this day in Symbian phones. Only Psion itself is not there anymore to ride that wave... So sometimes it is useful to do simpler, humble things, that satisfy user needs *now*. Even if they're somewhat at odds with the "great vision", they'll help getting there too...
- my PIM vs your PIM : if you ask only power users, you, me, your friends and posters here, evidently you'll get a bewildering and contradictory array of definitions for what "PIM" is. But it another post you say the goal is true mass market, something like phones rather than Palms ; and strangely, when you add my sister and my boss and your cousin and Bob's uncle to the mix, things actually get simpler, and now we know what PIM is : ability to open (preferably edit) *office documents ; a calendar that syncs with my other one ; and a way to use my existing contacts.
That's the same list I suggested to Qim yesterday : nothing fancy, nothing new, done for cheap ; certainly nothing appealing for a gung-ho team who set out to dazzle the world... But get those basics covered and you can turn back to the vision, and hopefully last long enough to get the great things done
Damn, fpp, I am now nominating you for council spokesman. :p
Sorry. It's Prez or nuthin. We're arrogant that way over here :-)
They must have a reason for not using the system-wide contacts - there is no logic to having multiple contact lists, one for each application. Perhaps the use of a system-wide database should be "enforced" a little more strongly by Nokia or Maemo (not sure how, better guide lines/documentation? Peer pressure?) otherwise the end user experience ultimately suffers - it's immediately apparent that I'm entering the same data multiple times into the same device.
Take this as speculation - I do not work for those companies in question - but:
If you look at Skype, for instance, they have a pretty similar UI and user experience in all of their Skype client applications in various devices. It's their choice and their freedom to think that the experience they provide by redesigning and reimplementing the contact handling again is better. The Skype experience is closely tied to their UI, as is with nearly any service.
In general, Company A wants to control the entire experience of using service A, promote the features of service A in exactly the manner they wish to promote them. With a unified UI there is always a compromise: they cannot have all the buttons in exactly the places where they want them to be, there needs to be some kind of balance between all the services. So there is a rather strong logic. Considering the overall user experience of the device it's perhaps an unfortunate logic, if you choose to see it that way.
However, If Nokia would say that "no, you must do it this way", then they do not do it at all. Then again, not all hope is lost: the whole UI of providing services and contact handling is still at a very early stage.
Milhouse
2007-07-09, 20:06
Ragnar - if you want to see how effective your products can be when you pay attention to UI design, UI consistency and maximising the end user experience, look no further than Apple.
On the other hand, If Nokia are willing to stand by while partner companies (with whom one would assume Nokia have some kind of influence) offer major, top billing, applications (such as Skype) on the Nokia platform that subvert and undermine the _overall_ user experience then fine with me - just don't expect Nokia to be in this business when other tablet companies do UI right and take away your customers.
Please hurry and convince the developers to use consistent contact handling because the clock is ticking and after two years, two devices, and 3 major releases of Maemo (a fourth is not far away ) for you to say that contact handling services is still at a very early stage does not fill me with much hope for the future. :(
JohnSwenson
2007-07-10, 03:46
I'm new here, I just got my N800 2 weeks ago but its already become indispensable. My original reason for buying it was to run Slimserver, which it does remarkably well. I really could care less about PIM features and editing word documents.
I have found the web surfing on the IT to be very addictive, I carry it with me all over the house, I can surf while eating breakfast, when commercials are playing on TV etc. I put it on the bedside table at night so I can surf in the middle of the night when I wake up without disturbing my wife. Its so much more convenient than the laptop that I wind up using it in many situations that I would not bother using the laptop.
One of the big draws to me was the fact that it runs linux, being able to go in and play with things, port programs etc was very important.
It seems to me that this opennes is part of the "problem" with the IT. On desktops people expect to buy programs that did not come with the computer in order to do most of their tasks. A fairly large number of people even modify their machines, adding new video cards etc. The mind set is that the hardware is a platform for external software and hardware.
Laptops are a bit more closed, very few people would ever consider upgrading the hardware on a laptop, but most people will still assume that they will be buying software for it. A certain number of people have a well defined function for their laptop and get it it with software to support it, but that is a fairly small percentage of users. One telling point is that almost nobody would ever even think of putting a new operating system on a laptop, while the concept is well known for desktops, even if most people balk at actually doing it.
For handheld computing devices its very different. The concept in most peoples mind is that a handheld is designed for a specific function and comes out of the box with everything you need to perform that function. The traditional functions being calculator, cell phone, PDA and MP3 player. This is the overwhelming mindset of most people when thinking about handheld electronic devices. If you want a new function, get a new device.
It takes a major mind shift to think of a hendheld as a platform like you do a desktop. To a large number of people its just inconceivable that they would have to get software and install it etc in order to get the functionality they want the device to perform. Its not their mindset.
The IT DOES come out of the box with the software for its intended purpose (browsing the internet) but that is so far removed from most peoples conception of a handheld device, that the fact its not optimized out of the box to perform traditional handheld functions can cause great distress and frustration because it does not fit their preconceptions of what a handheld is.
I think this is one of the big hurdles for the IT, to change peoples conception of what a handheld is, from a single use optimized for one purpose device into a platform that needs to have programs installed and configured, an incredibly flexible device, but one that you have to make into what you want it to be. A "handheld computing platform" rather than an appliance.
John S.
Okay, then further analysis is required: WHY didn't these developers tap into the system contacts provision? Is functionality missing? Does the API come up short? Is it an educational gap? Is it too hard? Are they too lazy?
As programmer myself I can readily assure tablet program folks that when presented with the choice of creating my own widget or tapping into available infrastructure, I'm going with door 2 every single time. No debate.
So-- why didn't they? That's Nokia's question to ask and solve.
Navicore didn't either. By my count that would be every third party proprietary app chose door number 1 or eliminated the feature all together.
Could it be security related?
John Swenson, that was a thoughtful post. I like the idea of "handheld computing platform".
Ragnar- In general, Company A wants to control the entire experience of using service A, promote the features of service A in exactly the manner they wish to promote them. With a unified UI there is always a compromise: they cannot have all the buttons in exactly the places where they want them to be, there needs to be some kind of balance between all the services. So there is a rather strong logic. Considering the overall user experience of the device it's perhaps an unfortunate logic, if you choose to see it that way.
Surely that doesn't prevent them from using the same database at least? If the schema doesn't suit exactly, that seems like a simple change for Nokia to make, especially of they want to see that 3rd party app on there, while still enforcing some kind of standard.
robmiller
2007-07-10, 06:27
whee, my first post actually from the n800 :)
ideally I´d quote all the relevant thread bits these responses are to, but here goes anyway...
skype maintains its contact base on the skype server(s), enabling the user to log in from any host and have access to that full contact set -- back to the online/offline bit. this seems pretty good as a reason to maintain a private set of contacts, though there might be an argument for syncing by choice with a local database.
for the other apps it presumably ties back to the point that no contacts/pim database that I know of has evolved to dominate this part of the unix/linux world. evolution is trying I believe, but looks pretty heavy for my use -- I need a terminal based system like pine so that mail collects on my home pc and I can ssh in to read it. others will have their own specs for managing email. I dont know which contacts database Ragnar referred to, but my first guess is that it is specific to hildon/maemo/nx00. if so, this only works if I am writing something from scratch to run on the n800, not if I am porting an existing app or intending for my project to have a wider audience.
as for a consistent user experience / interface / etc. as per e.g. osx, the flip side of this is ¨lock-in¨ and probably not terribly popular with most gnu/linux coders. even now there are a lot of window managers surviving in the ecosystem, apparently catering to many different personal preferences. probably this consistency is feasible on the n800 if you limit to only the nokia repositories, but compared to the resources feeding into that the apple input probably approximates ¨ïnfinite¨.
just my $0.02
rob.
I think this is one of the big hurdles for the IT, to change peoples conception of what a handheld is, from a single use optimized for one purpose device into a platform that needs to have programs installed and configured, an incredibly flexible device, but one that you have to make into what you want it to be. A "handheld computing platform" rather than an appliance.
John S.
BUT-- by the same token, why can't the customers also try to change Nokia's mind? ;)
> some Nokia execs appear reluctant to process negative feedback
Not the line of managers from my boss to the CEO, nor other managers in my team, deciding the future of maemo and the tablets. These people are quite flexible and open to improve or reinvent what is not going well or well enough. Then you might or might not like all their decisions, but the decision process overall makes sense and includes a lot of research and listening.
> There is a mounting frustration among the tablet users and occasional feelings of abandonment
Frustration goes together with expectations. Feeling of abandonment goes together with communication. I agree the levels of optimism and enthusiasm could be much better since after all the tablets are a good and interesting product, creating passion and excitement. We at Nokia need to improve our communication with this community and the management of expectations, yes. I would say this improvement already started, some fruits are visible, some others will be visible sooner and later, and still we need to improve more.
> when I see this community's priorities not matching up with the company's
You probably want to say that not all or not many of these priorities are matched. I wouldn't say the whole community is completely disatisfied either. There is progress, only two years ago almost nothing of all this existed publicly. Perhaps part of the expectations missmatch is a matter of understanding corporate software development processes and speed compared to OSS community hackers coding and releasing.
> if both "sides" have the proper information to realize that either Feature X is...
This is precisely why I'm getting so stubborn about http://maemo.org/intro/roadmap.html , linked pages and the process to update them, inside Nokia and the community.
> New and potential users will base decisions on whether or not to buy a tablets based on what they skim here
While the optimism and recommendations done in spaces like ITT might have a noticeable impact in sales, this is in general another type of argument you can drop in your dialog with Nokia. Go instead for argumentations around what makes sense and what doesn't make sense according to the Nokia products and strategy. "Syncing with Nokia phones should be a no brainer" or "the use of a system-wide database should be enforced" are good examples of winning arguments. "User X asked about YYY but since it's not in the tablet won't buy it" is not.
> Since it can do nearly anything, people want it to. That's a dilemma for Nokia,
Not really. I hope nobody thinks that Nokia chosed to create a platform based on Linux, Debian and GNOME and never thought that the open source community would pick that base and try to do lots of things with it. Nokia wants to push and ride the *top drivers* of the tablets and the software inside and wants to not be an obstacle to all the rest of possible use cases, to be developed by third parties (community, companies, whatever). Nokia leading all possible developments is senseless, or at least not according to the strategy around maemo and the tablets.
- Your expected PIM & sync functionality will be one day covered in the tablets and probably be supported by Nokia (called PIM or not, that I don't know). When? No idea, and perhaps could come not through a single release but through integrating progressively this functionality feature by feature. At the end i.e. 'support for Word documents' and 'tasks integrated with calendar' have nothing to do from a development point of view.
- "can be delivered purely by the open source community, I don't know"
Nor do I. It would be good to know what are the specific obstacles only Nokia can remove, if any.
- SIP "at some point": if it wouldn't be vacation time I bet my answer could have been more precise already yesterday. Gimme some time.
- PIM not a black/white thing: absolutely, this is why I'm asking (since February) to let behind the PIM yes-no and move forward to the specific set of features. Thanks to fpp, Milhouse and others for summarizing, we are getting into specifics. Submitting specific enhancement requests and/or creating linkable wiki pages would help, even if many of this requests have been made repeatedly in ITT talks.
- "done for cheap": there is nothing cheap in corporate software development for consumer electronics devices. The same OSS implementation requires a lot of extra expense when you want to put a Nokia supported label on it. This is why sometimes the community can move faster to get what most (power?) users would be happy with (but perhaps not the mainstream public).
> It seems to me that this opennes is part of the "problem" with the IT
JohnSwenson, you are making a very good point here. It has to do with communication and expectations. http://downloads.maemo.org , the one-click installs and the Tableteer repository are already big steps forward compared to a wiki with long pages linking to .deb packages. But this is still far away from what mainstream tablet owners would expect and/or be happy with. Only the current software offer (with all its gaps and betas) would make much happier most of the tablet users if they knew (and didn't have that pre-configured image of what a handheld should be, avoiding them to fully enjoy the freshness the tablet brings). Well, that's at least my personal opinion.
Well, this thread is being a pleasure to read and write. I will keep reading but I don't know how much I'm going to be able to write since tomorrow I start a chain of trips, guadec and holidays. I guess the basic message is clear: fight the roadmap.
> why can't the customers also try to change Nokia's mind?
They can, and they do, complaining (you would be surprised how effective is to call Nokia support and provide 'negative feedback' there) and buying or not Nokia products (what at the end counts in any commercial product). ITT is part of this picture but there is more out there. ;) As you say the customer is always right, and s/he might not even bother about ITT's discussions.
In addition to that, let me say that the most quoted sentence I have seen since I joined this project is:
“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” - Henry Ford
The man had a point. I don't know how he applied this to car mass production. I read it as "you need to understand your customer better than they understand themselves" (thanks (http://www.lukehohmann.com/blog/?p=18#comment-113)). The whole topic is far more complex but now It's time for me to do some actual work (and make you happier).
> some Nokia execs appear reluctant to process negative feedback
Not the line of managers from my boss to the CEO, nor other managers in my team, deciding the future of maemo and the tablets. These people are quite flexible and open to improve or reinvent what is not going well or well enough. Then you might or might not like all their decisions, but the decision process overall makes sense and includes a lot of research and listening.
Qgil, you're doing it again. ;) I truly believe that you don't see those people. What I'm asking from you is the same benefit of the doubt. I *have* encountered them in various areas of Nokia, including some involved with the N800's development and launch. Within Nokia's walls I have heard so many purely unscientific, anecdotal comments about what people want or don't want for so long I could scream if I hear another! Surveys are better!
You probably want to say that not all or not many of these priorities are matched. I wouldn't say the whole community is completely disatisfied either. There is progress, only two years ago almost nothing of all this existed publicly. Perhaps part of the expectations missmatch is a matter of understanding corporate software development processes and speed compared to OSS community hackers coding and releasing.
I didn't think the qualifier was necessary; I figured it was obvious I was generalizing there. I never said the whole community was dissatisfied, nor implied it, so again I see defense mounted where none is necessary :D. I really, REALLY wish we could avoid belaboring the obvious. There are some safe assumptions in this dialog and I have no problem with anyone making them of my points-- it's the unsafe assumptions and black-white responses I find annoying.
To the point, I agree, and insinuated as much in previous remarks. I am amazed at the tablet platform's progress. I remain a hardcore devotee. BUT: I would be remiss, personally and professionally, if I did not provide constructive feedback-- even if it's painful for *some* to hear.
> if both "sides" have the proper information to realize that either Feature X is...
This is precisely why I'm getting so stubborn about http://maemo.org/intro/roadmap.html , linked pages and the process to update them, inside Nokia and the community.
Once again: fully agreed. I think as a group here we're in consensus. Provide a single channel, and let the community diffuse the info. We've done it before, we'll continue to do so. RogerS, Reggie and Thoughtfix are all awesome at that. It's covered.
> New and potential users will base decisions on whether or not to buy a tablets based on what they skim here
While the optimism and recommendations done in spaces like ITT might have a noticeable impact in sales, this is in general another type of argument you can drop in your dialog with Nokia. Go instead for argumentations around what makes sense and what doesn't make sense according to the Nokia products and strategy. "Syncing with Nokia phones should be a no brainer" or "the use of a system-wide database should be enforced" are good examples of winning arguments. "User X asked about YYY but since it's not in the tablet won't buy it" is not.
Hang on Qgil. This is a major obstacle here. While what you say has objective merit, we're not living in ivory towers here. There is what we'd like to expect happen, and then there's reality. The reality is that people DO skim this forum and make snap judgments. I've seen far too many choose to avoid the tablets due to that unfortunate tendency.
Now, if you say those are unwanted prima donna customers I might be inclined to agree ;). The only reason I brought it up was that there is a perceived arrogance on Nokia's part toward customers. Read the posts here. Better yead, read the Nokia Way Jam feedback when you get a chance-- employees perceive it, too. Are those claiming the notion of an arrogant, disconnected Nokia are wrong? Well... that's pretty subjective. What I'd like you to do instead of dismissing what's been said along those lines is consider the ramifications if its true.
> Since it can do nearly anything, people want it to. That's a dilemma for Nokia,
Not really. I hope nobody thinks that Nokia chosed to create a platform based on Linux, Debian and GNOME and never thought that the open source community would pick that base and try to do lots of things with it. Nokia wants to push and ride the *top drivers* of the tablets and the software inside and wants to not be an obstacle to all the rest of possible use cases, to be developed by third parties (community, companies, whatever). Nokia leading all possible developments is senseless, or at least not according to the strategy around maemo and the tablets.
It's another perception thing. It *appears* to be a dilemma to many here, who may have a different notion of what a "top driver" is. Survey them. Best approach IMO.
Anyway, still glad to see your participation. I'm well aware what it takes.
EDIT: I agree with educating the customer. But consider this: forget the skimmers I mentioned. Your base here is very, very savvy. The heck with horses-- they're still wondering where their flying car is. The folks here are the ones who sneer at Henry Ford and teach HIM a thing or two. So we have that covered, as well. ;)
benny1967
2007-07-10, 07:22
In addition to that, let me say that the most quoted sentence I have seen since I joined this project is:
“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” - Henry Ford
This is such a great quote in this context. I remember how I felt when I got my 770: I really had no idea how this device could be useful except for surfing the web in bed. Plus: I had the feeling there's so much missing that I would have expected from a - well, from a PDA.
Now, looking back, I still wonder why I never wanted all the things the 770 can do before I bought it. How could I have lived without it? And now I see the IT as what it is, I don't want it to be a PDA anymore. Thank you very much.
And now I see the IT as what it is, I don't want it to be a PDA anymore. Thank you very much.
Traitor. :p
benny1967
2007-07-10, 09:17
Traitor. :p
I really, really want the ITs to be PDAs. Now!
(Better?)
I could see from N800reviews that this would open up a whole new way, some of which I could l envisage, much I could not but I had to jump in to find out and it is a blast.
However I also have a Zaurus which is crammed with indispensible apps that I don’t want to be without. There is no reason why those same or similar apps can’t reside in the N800. Apart, that is, from Nokia’s stubbornness in maintaining its restrictive vision for the device.
This is why I periodically check on the progress of the Intel MID’s. By the time these are available it will be clear whether or not Nokia is prepared to allow the internet tablet form factor to achieve its full potential. If Nokia won’t do it then maybe Intel (or someone else) will.
Frankly I am bored with pedantic arguments over Internet Tablet’s vs PDA’s, I really couldn’t care less. Due to developers for Nokia and Zaurus in trying to give us flying cars (thanks Tex), I know what I want my handheld device to do and slavish adherence to these labels just gets in the way.
Besides, you can just imagine the forum discussions at Henry Ford - “Think of it as a horse with wheels” .“What I want is a car with legs, you know where you stand with legs.”
While I am here, thanks to all who contribute to this amazing thread. It is my best read of the day by far.
> some Nokia execs appear reluctant to process negative feedback.
Not the line of managers from my boss to the CEO, nor other managers in my team, deciding the future of maemo and the tablets. These people are quite flexible and open to improve or reinvent what is not going well or well enough...
...Well, this thread is being a pleasure to read and write. I will keep reading but I don't know how much I'm going to be able to write since tomorrow I start a chain of trips, guadec and holidays. I guess the basic message is clear: fight the roadmap.
Your recent involvement in this forum has been a much needed breath of fresh air...
Have a safe journey and enjoy. http://www.clicksmilies.com/auswahl/ernaehrung004.gif
Ragnar - if you want to see how effective your products can be when you pay attention to UI design, UI consistency and maximising the end user experience, look no further than Apple.
On the other hand, If Nokia are willing to stand by while partner companies (with whom one would assume Nokia have some kind of influence) offer major, top billing, applications (such as Skype) on the Nokia platform that subvert and undermine the _overall_ user experience then fine with me - just don't expect Nokia to be in this business when other tablet companies do UI right and take away your customers.
Please hurry and convince the developers to use consistent contact handling because the clock is ticking and after two years, two devices, and 3 major releases of Maemo (a fourth is not far away ) for you to say that contact handling services is still at a very early stage does not fill me with much hope for the future. :(
Milhouse, please don't think that I wouldn't be aware what Apple is doing. I am very much aware what they are doing. :)
Apple is running things from a quite different perspective: they have a basically closed system (for instance in the iPod or iPhone), where they control the overall user experience, what gets in the product and how it is presented there. (Well and you don't see Skype or Gizmo there.)
The Maemo platform is an open system, for better or for worse. (Yes, once again, this split is not black and white, but it does have quite much implications.) If you look at desktop operating systems, they are open. Which leads to the issue that it is generally hard(er) to achieve those kinds of integrated experiences - at least initially - but on the other hand it is more appealing to create and bring those features to such a platform.
In these cases, I don't think that's really a matter of convincing developers to use the system. I don't think it has anything to do with the developers, really. The question is not which one is easier to develop. It's about controlling the user experience of using that particular service or feature. On some levels there is a conflict of interest between an invidual feature/service provider and then us as the general UI framework design providers. Company A doesn't want to see service A next to competing service B. However, it's an evolving field, and we see what we can do about this.
"When other tablet companies do UI right" - if it only would be so simple.
Apple is running things from a quite different perspective: they have a basically closed system (for instance in the iPod or iPhone), where they control the overall user experience, what gets in the product and how it is presented there. (Well and you don't see Skype or Gizmo there.)
No, but Apple also creates Mac OS X which is an "open" system, i.e. there are plenty of third party applications. But there is an expectation that the applications will work to the vision presented by the vendor, because it is "best" and the users expect integration and consistency.
How this is achieved is an interesting question (and arguably one for you to work out ;-)) - probably some combination of documentation and setting the bar high - but dismissing Apple's polished UIs as "well, they've got a closed system, they can do it how they like and we can't" misses the point.
However, I expect the real reason is that Nokia have had to bend over backwards to get Skype on the N800, not the other way round. Therefore Nokia won't do anything to piss them off.
Cheers,
Andrew
However, I expect the real reason is that Nokia have had to bend over backwards to get Skype on the N800, not the other way round. Therefore Nokia won't do anything to piss them off.
Cheers,
Andrew
And if true, that boggles my mind.
When eBay bought Skype, so many pundits (self included) blasted the poor fit. WTF? An online auction house? A VOIP client???
Later it became obvious what was going on: ebay wants to own and expand the entire purchasing experience-- and that includes not just emails and built-in text messaging but voice contacts as well. Imagine you're looking at an auction item and want to speak to the item owner verbally, immediately. A link to his/her Skype account provides that opportunity-- and EBay owns it. In that context suddenly it was a very good fit!
Which leads me to why Skype needed Nokia at least as much as Nokia needed Skype. People aren't enslaved to their desktops. They crave mobility. The N800 expands their options. I've already bid on ebay items via my N800-- now I can contact and be contacted by auction runners via Skype. This opens up ebay's options, too. It's in their best interest to support their client getting onto as many mobile devices as possible.
Which is why I think it should be possible and even helpful (to not just us but Skype/ebay) to enforce a common contacts database on the N800. I won't speculate too deeply on what may or may not have happened in any negotiations there, but it still doesn't make sense to this programmer/designer/N800 user/auction follower. Something is missing from the explanations-- and in this case I don't expect Qgil or ragnar to expound much further. Odds are there are details not fit for public consumption.
And on a final note, consider this: when I installed Skype on my Laptop running Windows XP, one of the first things it did was sync with my Outlook contacts. That fact alone causes me great puzzlement over Qgil's remarks.
Why did Nokia do the Internet Tablet? Lots of mobile phones and PDAs have Web and email access on the move (most of them have better email than the IT OS devices). "Most people that use Internet on the move already have their portable Internet devices and ecosystem already." Can you see the logical fallacy of your argument?
Indeed. As to PIM: At work we push the corporate contact list to everybody's devices, by bluetooth or whatever the device works with. I've got the list on my corporate phone. How on earth can it make sense that I then shouldn't need the (full, all fields) list on my N800? Even more now, when the phone numbers could be looked up by Skype. (Edit: Skype uses a central contacts database, that doesn't interfere with using another, local DB for phone numbers. They wouldn't normally be in the central database anyway.)
As for more PIM: Give me a good calendar, please. And make it possible to set the calendar to start the FM radio, in external speaker mode (and internet radio, obvioiusly). And make it possible to do something so simple as specifying a bi-weekly event, something that GPE calendar can't. For more, look at how flexible the PalmOS calendar is. (Would fix it myself if feasible, but it gets difficult to warp an already complete design like GPE. I'll keep looking though.)
Good PIM can only enhance the functionality of the N800 (ref. above: Making it into a clock radio: The N800 becomes an even more useful travel companion).
(Apologies if I'm just duplicating points already made, I'm trying to read the whole thread in one go.)
JohnSwenson
2007-07-10, 19:52
To my mind I would rather see Nokia spend effort on infrastructure, development platforms/tools and documentation rather than the "killer"apps. Since they obviously have thought of this as a platform I don't see why they should have to write all the apps. I think its our job here to come up with what we want and somehow have some means of communicating that to the development community at large, rather than putting it all on Nokia's shoulders.
I think Nokia has done a very good job with the development environment, it seems light years ahead of what has to be dealt with on other handheld "platforms" . We need to make use of that and figure out a good interaction model with the non-Nokia developers to get the applications we want. I think that is the critial piece to this puzzle. This frees up Nokia to work on what only they can do (like getting OpenGL drivers :D ).
One thing that I think would help a lot is an easy to use simple script packager so you don't have to be a full fledged maemo developer to write a script for the IT. This would take a script (say shell or python) and package it up so it can be installed with the application manager and run from the application launcher (setuid capability would also be nice, but that gets a little tricky).
A case in point: accessing windows shares. This is doable on the IT, the CIFS kernel module exists and documentation for use also exists. BUT its a pain in the neck to use, especially for non-linux hackers. First you have to get xterm, then figure which of 16 ways to get root access you are going to use, figure out how to use the command line to get around (ls, cd etc), understand the difference between user space file structure and linux file structure, then properly run all the commands. Even if you write a script for this you still have to start xterm and become root to run it. We need some way that this simple thing can get scripted up and used just like another tool. You shouldn't have to learn to be a full fledged maemo developer to do this.
This one simple thing I think would greatly accelerate the spread of usefull little applets amongst the user community. Take for example the schedular mentioned previously. A simple schedular could be written in 20 lines of python, it wouldn't be terribly powerful, it would provide some utility and would be easy to write. Someone else could come up with ideas for enhancement, tweak it a bit and an even better version would exist. If a lot of people really like it and use it a development group could take over. I've seen this happen in many other environments. I don't see that happening here, primarily I think because its so difficult to use such scripts.
Well thats enough for now, I have more to say, but I'll save that for later.
John S.
Having finally read the whole thread, some random stuff:
My own use case:
1) I for one carry the N800 everywhere (inside my jacket pocket), except to the beach - the screen isn't really usable in sunlight. I notice that some don't, they keep it at home. I differ.
2) The N800 _is_ my main device, the phone is the secondary device. My eyes are getting too old to use the small screens of phones, I don't read the screen much these days, SMS'es excepted. Even smartphones have too small screens, while at the same time being too large (sometimes I need to be able to keep it in a small pocket, where no other device would be possible to carry). And smartphones are expensive. And not very flexible when it comes to functionality.
3) Thus, my interest in phones is as a cheap, small, efficient communication companion to the N800. B/W screen, BT, Edge/3G is all I need. No multimedia functions or anything else that increases the price. My N800 can do all of that (and my small camera the rest).
4) Getting Skype helped a lot. I travel, and in some countries the cost of using my (corporate) cellphone is so outrageous that the company financial manager would get a hearth attack if I use it much (I remember once the bill for a month of limited cellphone use was way above the lease costs for my car. Manager not happy.).
5) The N800 reduces the need for my laptop, which can be quite tiring to carry around, and too bothersome to boot up in those inconvenient arenas. Thus, some of my use cases for the N800 can be derived from this fact (even though I'm not one of those that particularly needs Word.)
6) Some missing functionality makes it necessary for me to keep carrying my old Palm PDA. Getting an equally good calendar, for example, would be great. It would even be more useful on an N800 than on the PDA (see previous posting, re. clock radio).
7) Even for the "PIM" stuff (for me that's limited to calendar and contacts) I don't particulary need synch functionality, as in being able to merge changes forth and back. I always used my Palm as the central calendar and to-do database, that's the single point where I updated it. Using the N800 the same way is what I want. Simple export- and import functionality is what I would use. (My point is that it could be useful for many people even without e.g. syncML support.)
About the software platform:
There's been a lot of smaller or bigger complaints about bugs/annoyances or missing features in the built-in applications. I think a lot/most of that could have been avoided if it could be fixed by end users (er, developers. I'm both): If it had been possible to simply check out all the source and rebuild the whole, complete system, built-in apps and all, then this could have been done, IMO. I'm not talking about rebuilding the proprietary parts: The binary wi-fi driver could still be binary, Opera and Skype are simply applications that can be installed with the application manager. But it should be possible to rebuild the rest, including the home applets.
1) osso-email has some silly problems. At one stage I tried hard to collect all components necessary to rebuild from source. After a lot of work I found that this isn't meant to be possible. Thus, no way to fix problems. Instead bug reports are set to 'wontfix' etc. and we're stuck. As the built-in client is integrated I still end up using it instead of 3party apps. like claws-mail, so bugs or not, I use osso-email still.
2) Built-in home applets can't be freely reduced in size (unlike e.g. the 3party excellent "simple launcher"). With the limited real estate, and overlapping not allowed, this creates serious space problems. For example, I use the clock applet in digital mode, thus most of the space is wasted but I can't reduce the size. Again, if it was a simple case of checking out, modify and rebuild then this could be fixed (and as it's the original stuff it could then simply be incorporated by Nokia in the next release, if the fixes/improvements are good. Good for all parties.) Can the applets be recompiled? I can't find source for them in the repository source dir, at least.
3) The BT status bar thingy wasn't fixed in the last release (I didn't care much before because it starts up if you start something BT on the N800, but now that I've got a BT keyboard it annoys me that I have to dive down in the control panel to start it).
.. and so on. It all boils down to the same.. make it easy to rebuild from source (and this wouldn't really conflict with any of the truly proprietary stuff, e.g. Opera, Skype, wi-fi driver, and maybe the DSP code). This would make it easier for all parties: Less work for Nokia, less platform/application fragmentation for users, faster progress.
I'm re-reading the roadmap just now, I believe I saw something like this described in the wishlist somewhen back. Hmm, I see 'Compilable sources' under Developement, Tools. Maybe that'll cover it (and it's in the roadmap department. Good, if it covers my wishes above! :-))
In the Wishlist there's another item related to the above: "APIs for extending built-in applications". I'm not sure what exactly this implies, but I'm hoping it means to provide enough of a documented API that it would be possible for a 3party developer to e.g. seamlessly integrate OpenVPN in the N800 networking setup. And write or port codecs for the media player, for example. I'm a developer, but I spend almost all available development time on our corporate projects, but there's a month of holidays coming up and I wish I could've spend some of that time hacking on some of the things I've mentioned above.. I always have some private project going during holidays.
The roadmap/wishlist looks pretty good to me now (if I read it correctly..), it's been a while since last I checked it. BTW, Flash9 and >2GB (it says Gb but that'll be a typo I bet) support is in now, so you could update the roadmap and move it to a 'Done' section! :D
Finally, I cherish my N800. It's one of the best investments I've made, and it can only get better. During my travels it also gets a lot of very positive interest when I dig it up at meetings, in the corridor, lunchroom or anywhere. The kind of people I meet in my job seem to instinctively see the potential for it, so just make sure not to disappoint those potential customers.. ;) (And no, I don't have to explain that often that "it's not a phone!")
Okay Qim, here's a few more for the road :-)
> New and potential users will base decisions on whether or not to buy a tablets based on what they skim here
While the optimism and recommendations done in spaces like ITT might have a noticeable impact in sales, this is in general another type of argument you can drop in your dialog with Nokia. Go instead for argumentations around what makes sense and what doesn't make sense according to the Nokia products and strategy. "Syncing with Nokia phones should be a no brainer" or "the use of a system-wide database should be enforced" are good examples of winning arguments. "User X asked about YYY but since it's not in the tablet won't buy it" is not.
I understand that the notion of "winning argument " is heavily dependent on corporate culture, but the strategy of the ostrich can be a dangerous one. If the number of "User X" is significant compared to the sales target, and "feature YYY" follows a very clustered distribution around two or three recurring topics, then it certainly could pay to pay attention.
Though ITT is certainly *the* focal point for this community, I closely follow four more sites (another in English and three in French) where the tablets are either a central topic or one frequently discussed. My feedback in this thread about PIM issues is not based on personal pet peeves, but on statistical-if-unscientific observations there. For instance, I myself could care less about opening Word/Excel files on my own tablet (I would gladly trade that for a sync'ed calendar :-), but the topic is clearly a recurring one, and one that hurts sales. Benny1967 here bought the tablet despite *perceived* limitations, and later was glad he did. But so many more didn't even give it a chance.
- SIP "at some point": if it wouldn't be vacation time I bet my answer could have been more precise already yesterday. Gimme some time.
Okay, I misread that one, sorry. Hope there'll be good news after the holidays :-)
- "done for cheap": there is nothing cheap in corporate software development for consumer electronics devices. The same OSS implementation requires a lot of extra expense when you want to put a Nokia supported label on it. This is why sometimes the community can move faster to get what most (power?) users would be happy with (but perhaps not the mainstream public).
"cheap" is of course relative. There is of course an added cost in helping an OSS project achieve the level of functionality, integration and user-readiness required here. These costs are real, but probably marginal compared to doing those same projects from scratch, in-house, like Psion did. I suppose the Opera licenses for the 770 and N800 have cost real money. I suppose the development of the much-maligned osso-email-client, the sometimes-finicky RSS reader, the not-very-useful Notes app, and the format-sensitive media-player all incurred the sort of costs you speak of, too.
When I see what single developers, working on-and-off to tie in existing OSS projects with Maemo/Hildon, were able to do with Minimo, Claws, Pan, MPlayer, SciTe and other stuff... I have to wonder whether the same amount of money and developer time, spent on these projects by the maemo team with its insider knowledge of Hildon, with outside people familiar with each project's code, wouldn't have given better results.
It may be a pipe dream of course, and sorry if this ruffles a few feathers in Helsinki, but it's possible there has been some sort of NIH syndrome at work here, at least initially.
PS: Actually you don't even have to bundle the PIM features with the tablets. Just make them readily available on Tableteer or somewhere, as "unsupported addons" -- as long as lazy reviewers can tick off the items from their check list, and user X can be told by user Z that yes, feature YYY is available, you're out of the woods :-)
Well, this thread is being a pleasure to read and write. I will keep reading but I don't know how much I'm going to be able to write since tomorrow I start a chain of trips, guadec and holidays. I guess the basic message is clear: fight the roadmap.
Thanks for popping in and for a lively discussion. Take care, & hope to see you back soon !
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