View Full Version : Is this not real multitasking? [Android]
herpderp
2012-10-02, 19:49
5 Floating Android Apps (http://droidnerds.com/content/5-floating-apps-which-make-multitasking-on-android-even-more-impressive/)... Just looking for opinions from the Maemo community.
Especially Estel's.
Thanks.
thedead1440
2012-10-02, 19:52
there is a thread mentioning similar features on the GNote2... IMO, those are more impressive than these apps especially with the sidebar for quick access to a second app for overlaying/split-screening onto the first app...
herpderp
2012-10-02, 20:02
I agree, the split-screen multitasking is nothing short of amazing on the gnote2. It goes way beyond what was possible on any mobile device before.
diogotrc
2012-10-02, 20:07
Its not new, we can do it on KDE for tablet + MeeGo (MER)
Real multitasking is not about the task-switching UI, it's about who controls which processes are allowed to continue running in the background. If the OS terminates processes that the user started without confirmation from the user, then that OS does not provide real multitasking.
End of.
Real multitasking is not about the task-switching UI, it's about who controls which processes are allowed to continue running in the background. If the OS terminates processes that the user started without confirmation from the user, then that OS does not provide real multitasking.
End of.
Real multitasking is not about background processes. It's about interaction between the UI, user and number of different tasks performed between these two in a simple, fast and natural way.
Speaking of which, would it be that hard to write a daemon probing the system (or even parsing htop or similar output) for heavy tasks and when certain threshold is reached/crossed display a notification: Hey dude, your computing device is heavy on tasks, is any of those unnecessary? with ignore/never_come_back option of course for real multitasking? On maemo you'd just need to assign it higher priority than any user-started app, not sure how to prevent it from being a batt sucker though
Fuzzillogic
2012-10-02, 20:22
Nothing new here. N900 and N9 can do it since always. Normally Android suspends the running app when another app (activity) is activated, just like iOS and WP. However, you can create background services on Android and do whatever you want, which is something iOS and WP won't allow. (and why shouldn't buy those, amongst many, many other reasons).
On the N9/00 apps will run in the background, unless the developer decides otherwise. Just like a normal PC (However, Windows 8 is also idiotic in that regard). On the N9 at least you can even distinguish between active, visible in the taskswitcher and running in background, so you can actually see multiple apps doing stuff at the same time in the task switcher.
@Chuck Norris: it is about background tasks. The ability to stream music to the radio, running Drive in the background with spoken navigation while your spouse is browsing the web on one and same device.
Real multitasking is not about background processes. It's about interaction between the UI, user and number of different tasks performed between these two in a simple, fast and natural way.
That's a load of waffle. It can't be real multitasking if a task is closed without user consent. Simples.
Where you can play audio and videos together other than maemo5 through media player and km player ,two songs for example ,together ??? i really dont know about n9 but does it happen on any other device other than N900 ?
flopjoke
2012-10-02, 21:26
I remember this cool feature in my N8: let's say I was listening to music, then suddenly I get a call. The music pauses. Then, while being on a call, I can minimize the call window, and go back to music player and resume the music WHILE the call is still going on. Due to this, BOTH you and the other person can listen to the music through the receiver.. and it was high quality sound. I found this feature really amazing.
So far, I didn't see any other device do it, apart from my N8 and old N82. Which means.. Our old Symbian phones could do it.
Even the N9 can't do such a thing. Damn.
But yeah, this doesn't define true multitasking completely.. probably partly for one particular thing only. I just thought it was a cool feature, that's all.
Where you can play audio and videos together other than maemo5 through media player and km player ,two songs for example ,together ??? i really dont know about n9 but does it happen on any other device other than N900 ?
Don't know.
I can watching the video and browsing the web at the same time at my galaxy note. My n900 can't do that, which to me is better than playing one song while watching video.
Always these same trade offs. Where is the device with everything ;)
Fuzzillogic
2012-10-02, 21:49
Even the N9 can't do such a thing. Damn.
I reckon it actually can, just not with the standard software. But perhaps, with some gstreamer-magic, it can be done. It's not that the device won't let you, but at most that it simply doesn't work.
flopjoke
2012-10-02, 21:50
@Dave999 I don't see the point of that. At any instant of time, you're either browsing or watching a video. No one does BOTH at the SAME time.
Unless your eyes are like this: http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=20664.0;attach=715 2;image
Then maybe, yeah :P
I remember this cool feature in my N8: let's say I was listening to music, then suddenly I get a call. The music pauses. Then, while being on a call, I can minimize the call window, and go back to music player and resume the music WHILE the call is still going on. Due to this, BOTH you and the other person can listen to the music through the receiver.. and it was high quality sound. I found this feature really amazing.
So far, I didn't see any other device do it, apart from my N8 and old N82. Which means.. Our old Symbian phones could do it.
Even the N9 can't do such a thing. Damn.
But yeah, this doesn't define true multitasking completely.. probably partly for one particular thing only. I just thought it was a cool feature, that's all.
Not sure if it has a lot to do with multitasking, on meamo you'd just need to define sink(s) for the audio to get that. Unless it kills mic in such config, but audio 'controls' (yeah, not really controls, but you have the option to control how audio is/goes unlike in symbian or other os) are totally open. Check alsa-policy thread (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=83447).
flopjoke
2012-10-02, 21:52
I reckon it actually can, just not with the standard software. But perhaps, with some gstreamer-magic, it can be done. It's not that the device won't let you, but at most that it simply doesn't work.
Yes, I figured that as well.. because when you're on a call and try to play music, it gives a pop-up saying "Can't play the song." So it looks like they prevented this feature on purpose. Which means that it's very much possible.
flopjoke
2012-10-02, 22:01
Not sure if it has a lot to do with multitasking, on meamo you'd just need to define sink(s) for the audio to get that.
Yup, that pretty much sumps up the whole "multi-tasking" argument. In other devices.. you have to rely on the manufacturer or OS provider to come up with a "new" feature that allows "multitasking" so to speak.. where as in an open-source community, most likely we can just do it ourselves. In other words: Impossible is nothing here.
Where you can play audio and videos together other than maemo5 through media player and km player ,two songs for example ,together ???
s/Where/Why/
I think you've stumbled upon a potential annoyance where you can override the pause feature of music on your Symbian based phone and called it multi-tasking. That's still task switching in my personal book but with an override of a control that's meant to stop media from playing.
A bunch of specialized apps that float above the main OS isn't really multi-tasking in my book. It's attempting to be desktop multi-tasking, which I'd love, but in a mobile OS, those apps are still clunky. And I own Overskreen Browser on my Android tablets.
I think we're still way away from true multi-tasking, and after much thought, the N900 got it mostly right since it didn't just halt the apps in the background - they could keep going, all but music, whereas other operating systems seem to halt the background apps in a state.
herpderp
2012-10-02, 22:28
Most of you seem to fail to understand WHY iOS and Android enforce a very strict control over what runs in the background.
Just search this forum for misterious battery drains on the N900 and N9. There is a tradeoff here, they restricted background processes (you CAN run bakcground tasks like downloads/uploads, music player, anything), so that amateur programmers creating bad apps don't waste battery power.
On Maemo, it was easy for a badly written app to consume all the battery easily, because it could run in the background without any safeguards.
flopjoke
2012-10-02, 22:34
@gerbick I think the term "multitasking" is commercialized and destroyed by manufactures. Everyone is using it in advertising and promotion without actually providing the REAL thing. So yeah, we are pretty far from that on a a mobile device for an end user.
herp: You seem to fail to understand that iOS appstore has QA that should prevent that vs devel here. They don't have a choice afaik. No friendly popup: would you like multitasking (dangers include our QA doing a shitty job...) or do you prefer dumbos?
flopjoke
2012-10-02, 22:37
@herpderp maybe that's true, but I don't see any significant numbers in battery lives of Android or iPhones in general. I don't see how it's a plus point.
herp: You seem to fail to understand that iOS appstore has QA that should prevent that vs devel here. They don't have a choice afaik. No friendly popup: would you like multitasking (dangers include our QA doing a shitty job...) or do you prefer dumbos?
There's always jailbreak. There's more than just a few ways to multi-task on iOS.
How does jailbreaking make iOS multitasking OS? Serious question. Just allows you to run programs that didn't pass QA and they are not killed in background??? One could write task-switcher for jailbroken iOS like in maemo with running apps having small auto-refreshing mini-windows?
How does jailbreaking make iOS multitasking OS? Serious question. Just allows you to run programs that didn't pass QA and they are not killed in background??? One could write task-switcher for jailbroken iOS like in maemo with running apps having small auto-refreshing mini-windows?
The decision originally to limit multi-tasking to serial tasking was mainly because of RAM limitations on the iPhone 3GS. But after the jailbreak, the OS can handle simultaneous - it could if Apple turned it on, but didn't due to how they cannot control how third party apps regard memory usage and start/stop/resume commands (I'm sorta paraphrasing a **** ton of dev notes and observations here) from the OS.
There was the one I had used without issue on the 3GS - CardSwitcher (http://www.cultofmac.com/156274/cardswitcher-2-0-brings-webos-multitasking-to-your-ios-5-device-jailbreak/) which brought WebOS-like multi-tasking and switching to the iPhone. I did so without issue until Skype came out, that thing would lock your machine upon switch.
It's not that jailbreaking adds multi-tasking. It actually allows multi-tasking and in a manner that Apple doesn't tend to allow since they cannot promise a (and now I'm using Apple speak here) uniform user experience. Thus, jailbreak removes that limitation.
Sad, but true.
I hope that answers your question.
Thanks, very informative. Actually seems like if devs had strict rules on developing background running apps with QA they have in place for istore this should be a very good os for real multitasking. Not sure what they cannot promise if on under-specced N900 running 10 apps simultaneously doesn't seem to cause a problem (ok, not flash-playing apps at the same time, but having calc/notes/sms/phone/reader/rss/xterm/mc/htop/photos and few more open at the same time has insignificant impact on N900 performance for me, maybe they idle properly, no idea)
Thanks, very informative. Actually seems like if devs had strict rules on developing background running apps with QA they have in place for istore this should be a very good os for real multitasking. Not sure what they cannot promise if on under-specced N900 running 10 apps simultaneously doesn't seem to cause a problem (ok, not flash-playing apps at the same time, but having calc/notes/sms/phone/reader/rss/xterm/mc/htop/photos and few more open at the same time has insignificant impact on N900 performance for me, maybe they idle properly, no idea)
Remember that whole issue with the EULA change disregarding non-Objective C built applications (think Unity3D, Adobe AIR, PhoneGap, et al) because they didn't regard the proper OS calls - the ones they wouldn't let third party apps get to because they didn't want (and I'm adding my own commentary here) to take the time to grant those frameworks access to all of the API's, document those API's and then test access and success on those API's.
Anyway, I find Apple's QA restrictive because it allows them to avoid dealing with too many variables. Something that the N900 and so forth deal with differently and (honestly) way better than Apple.
Dunno. I have a lot of opinions, but not sure if any one system gets it more right than the other. Just go with the one that does what you want. Or, see if there's an alternative within that OS and hack/tweak/jailbreak as you see fit. That's what I did with my Android tablets (custom ROM's that gave me what I wanted), iOS phones (past tense) and jailbreak them to do what I wanted, N9 tweaks that added the functions I thought should have been there all along.
Again, my take. Apple could, but they seem lazy. Just like Microsoft in that regard. Capable OS's, but they limit it because that's easier.
Just out of curiosity, do you know what wp8 multitasking is like? Is it only c# apps? And totally out of a different bucket, is android ndk just like compiling on maemo? Wondering just in case Jolla doesn't deliver, 920 seems tempting for the phone/photo features, but I doubt I'll be able to run/compile progs on it. Also no idea on how to get native libux apps on android, after maemo expecting it to be nightmare. Sorry all for offtopic...
Just out of curiosity, do you know what wp8 multitasking is like? Is it only c# apps? And totally out of a different bucket, is android ndk just like compiling on maemo? Wondering just in case Jolla doesn't deliver, 920 seems tempting for the phone/photo features, but I doubt I'll be able to run/compile progs on it. Also no idea on how to get native libux apps on android, after maemo expecting it to be nightmare. Sorry all for offtopic...
Erm... I actually don't know yet. I just accepted delivery of a Win8 machine (not WP8) and have yet to start looking into the development, multi-tasking and what not. I'm having to come back up to speed on the newest version of Visual Studio.
But with the differences in WP8 going all the way down to the kernel, I just don't know yet. There's a few devs on these boards that will probably be better at answering this right now. When I find out more, I'll gladly update you. I just don't know enough - tackling BB Playbook via Adobe AIR and Tizen development at the same time to see if it's worth my time while biding my time for Qt 5 (final) and seeing if that's my path or not going forward - or even if I'll continue development, might switch to UI/UX and back to graphics and use that degree instead.
Anyway, I'm sorry for contributing to the off-topic nature of these talks too all.
Ignore us?
rcolistete
2012-10-03, 00:55
Most of you seem to fail to understand WHY iOS and Android enforce a very strict control over what runs in the background.
Because they are dumbed down mobile OS made to be popular among millions of dumbed down users. Goodbye real multitasking and even real state of last used softwares, after all, only us geeks know what they mean.
rcolistete
2012-10-03, 01:12
The decision originally to limit multi-tasking to serial tasking was mainly because of RAM limitations on the iPhone 3GS.
I still have my Psion Revo+ working : 16MB of RAM/disk memory, about 100 installed softwares, full multitasking and visible file system, EPOC OS with micro-kernel, 2 years without rebooting even when I was developing (typing, compiling and testing) on it in OPL, qwerty keyboard way better than current smartphones.
I still have my Psion Revo+ working : 16MB of RAM/disk memory, about 100 installed softwares, full multitasking and visible file system, EPOC OS with micro-kernel, 2 years without rebooting even when I was developing (typing, compiling and testing) on it in OPL, qwerty keyboard way better than current smartphones.
The programmers then knew how to code without so much bloat. Efficiency isn't practiced any longer by no means - why do it because the fast GPU, CPU and RAM combo can allow bad programmers to look halfway decent. Nor did your Psion (I SO wanted one!) have to deal with the same number of systems, 3D graphics, colors and what not that people expect now.
Still... that device was so ahead of its time man. People could learn so much from those "simpler" times.
Frappacino
2012-10-03, 03:20
lol neckbeard snobbery...
and thats why this place will die an slow obscure death while he world moves on
lol. I've been called a lot of things, but never a snob nor a neckbeard.
Most of you seem to fail to understand WHY iOS and Android enforce a very strict control over what runs in the background.
Just search this forum for misterious battery drains on the N900 and N9. There is a tradeoff here, they restricted background processes (you CAN run bakcground tasks like downloads/uploads, music player, anything), so that amateur programmers creating bad apps don't waste battery power.
On Maemo, it was easy for a badly written app to consume all the battery easily, because it could run in the background without any safeguards.
Since you're talking battery, those ads that appear in Android and iOS consume quite a lot of battery charge.
don_falcone
2012-10-03, 07:34
lol neckbeard snobbery...
and thats why this place will die an slow obscure death while he world moves on
Sure, move out & on. And don't let the door hit you on your way out. We'll keep the house party running as long as it fits us :D
I enjoy the company of wise, smelly neckbeards more than pastures (worlds) full of playful, noisy, clueless kids. :cool:
leoniedelt
2012-10-04, 20:18
Sure, move out & on. And don't let the door hit you on your way out. We'll keep the house party running as long as it fits us :D
I enjoy the company of wise, smelly neckbeards more than pastures (worlds) full of playful, noisy, clueless kids. :cool:
I am embarrassed to say i had to google "neckbeard".
As you were.
No worries, I siried genius and got a neckbeard Einstein instead.What to believe, what to believe...
That's a load of waffle. It can't be real multitasking if a task is closed without user consent. Simples.
Ever heard of the OOM-killer? :)
I've actually set overcommit_memory to 2 (and overcommit_ratio to 90) to make sure the kernel doesn't do any overbooking. But there's still a chance that the kernel might decide to kill a program without asking the user.
ste-phan
2012-10-05, 08:36
@Dave999 I don't see the point of that. At any instant of time, you're either browsing or watching a video. No one does BOTH at the SAME time.
Unless your eyes are like this: http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=20664.0;attach=715 2;image
Then maybe, yeah :P
And what about multi-user , multitasking? One browsing the web, while the other watching video?
Limiting usage scenario's has no end until you are back at the starting point only making simple phone calls.
I think you've stumbled upon a potential annoyance where you can override the pause feature of music on your Symbian based phone and called it multi-tasking. That's still task switching in my personal book but with an override of a control that's meant to stop media from playing.
Symbian has been a full multitasking OS since day one. Its predecessors EPOC32 and EPOC16 (SIBO) were also full multitasking OSes - this was back in the days when Windows had trouble singletasking (nowadays Windows has improved to the point where it can run multiple trojans/malware/viruses at the same time as well as whatever program you're running in the foreground). Even in allowing full multitasking, Symbian phones still have the best battery life on the market.
The programmers then knew how to code without so much bloat. Efficiency isn't practiced any longer by no means - why do it because the fast GPU, CPU and RAM combo can allow bad programmers to look halfway decent.Very true. Unfortunately (or fortunately) hardware development has been improving much faster than software development. Hence it doesn't make commercial sense to spend a year or two to optimise your software to run on current hardware when by that time your software will "automatically" run twice as fast on the newer hardware.
Nor did your Psion (I SO wanted one!) have to deal with the same number of systems, 3D graphics, colors and what not that people expect now.Neither does the iphone ...?
Still... that device was so ahead of its time man. People could learn so much from those "simpler" times.I blame the Americans ;) Whilst Psion did fairly well in Europe with their fully multitasking, decent screen/keyboard/applications & expandable PDAs, Americans were happy with the Palm Pilots with their tiny screens and no keyboards and limited storage. And history is repeating itself.
Funny how the "superior" tech just keeps on losing and how the Americans get blamed each and every time.
Oh well. Do better next time perhaps? We'll love the next great tech perhaps.
Half-Life_4_Life
2012-10-07, 08:44
Well I know that this "multitasking" is copied from first wiindows 95..or xp.
benny1967
2012-10-07, 08:54
@Dave999 I don't see the point of that. At any instant of time, you're either browsing or watching a video. No one does BOTH at the SAME time.
I do.
I do when I watch TV (browse wikipedia to look up things they talk about on TV).
I do on my PC (keep surfing while watching a video that isn't exactly about quantum mechanics).
I used to on a tablet even though it didn't display both the browser an the video at the same time. It was good that I could listen to the video while switching to the browser only for a few seconds.
The worst thing in UI design is to assume what people won't do.
benny1967
2012-10-07, 09:06
Most of you seem to fail to understand WHY iOS and Android enforce a very strict control over what runs in the background.
Just search this forum for misterious battery drains on the N900 and N9. There is a tradeoff here, they restricted background processes (you CAN run bakcground tasks like downloads/uploads, music player, anything), so that amateur programmers creating bad apps don't waste battery power.
On Maemo, it was easy for a badly written app to consume all the battery easily, because it could run in the background without any safeguards.
Isn't it a bit snotty to assume we fail to understand?
It may well be that performance and battery issues are the reasons why some popular OSs don't allow real user-controlled multi-tasking.
On the other hand, some users may prefer having total control. Control always includes risks. I can deal with such risks. I know what to do when suddenly, after I installed an application, battery life goes down significantly. I know what to do when my device slows down more and more because of the many applications running in the background.
Still, I want to be able to keep them running if I have a reason to. I want to be able to decide for myself what's more important to me at the moment, battery life or the output of one special application that keeps crunching numbers in the background.
There is one thing more to consider. When computers gets more and more advanced users tend to run more and more things. At some point you lose visibility of the list anyway. Don't think a driver of a car or a pilot in a plain want be able to check processes running, but expect subsystem handle that and only show the user the relevant data or information. While the mobile devices aren't their yet. It's not long until they could run, controlled lots of things at the same time and the user must get help to handle processes and memory and tasks.
herpderp
2012-10-07, 09:25
Isn't it a bit snotty to assume we fail to understand?
It may well be that performance and battery issues are the reasons why some popular OSs don't allow real user-controlled multi-tasking.
On the other hand, some users may prefer having total control. Control always includes risks. I can deal with such risks. I know what to do when suddenly, after I installed an application, battery life goes down significantly. I know what to do when my device slows down more and more because of the many applications running in the background.
Still, I want to be able to keep them running if I have a reason to. I want to be able to decide for myself what's more important to me at the moment, battery life or the output of one special application that keeps crunching numbers in the background.
I didn't say nobody understood.
I respect your choices, and I understand that you (as most people here) are power users. But when designing a piece of hardware + software, one has to make compromises - in this case either you do the full multitasking thing, or you do the android-ios thing, doing both is not economically feasible (plus average users will get confused).
And choosing the more fail-safe solution is better when you consider a huge (and mostly non-tech savvy) userbase.
Where you can play audio and videos together other than maemo5 through media player and km player ,two songs for example ,together ??? i really dont know about n9 but does it happen on any other device other than N900 ?
You can do it on a Symbian S60v3 device. I had a Nokia N73 and I used to play 2 songs simultaneously :D One using the default media player and another one using the app - Xplore :D
flopjoke
2012-10-16, 10:06
And what about multi-user , multitasking? One browsing the web, while the other watching video?
Limiting usage scenario's has no end until you are back at the starting point only making simple phone calls.
Well, the whole idea about owning a personal device is so you can use it to help you in life. And yes, a mobile PHONE is supposed to make phone CALLS. That was the whole point of it.
Those features are pretty good, yes, but not for a device that is around 4.5" in length. Those features would be pretty great on a tablet or laptop.. which they are and that is why they were invented. Those are the portable devices which should allow multi-user scenario - doing it on a tiny mobile phone might be "cool", but that's about it.
I do.
I do when I watch TV (browse wikipedia to look up things they talk about on TV).
I do on my PC (keep surfing while watching a video that isn't exactly about quantum mechanics).
I used to on a tablet even though it didn't display both the browser an the video at the same time. It was good that I could listen to the video while switching to the browser only for a few seconds.
The worst thing in UI design is to assume what people won't do.
EXACTLY. A TV.. a laptop.. a tablet.. all devices are meant to do that. As I said above, features like those are a nice addition in a mobile phone, but it makes more sense on a larger screen than on a handheld device.
Even if you do watch a video while browsing the internet, you're wasting screen area for the browser and it makes it harder for you to navigate. But making the screen larger isn't the answer; now you're just compromising between a tablet and a phone. A handheld device that makes phone calls shouldn't be so huge that it looks like you stuck a book to your face. Sure, people will get used to it eventually, but it's just silly.
Make calls and do the essential things on the move using a phone, use a laptop for other things. If you want to do both, use a tablet - that's what they're created for. Personally, I think trying to fit all these features into a small device and compromising battery life, more harmful radiation, interaction with the REAL world, marketing it as the best device.. these are all just commercial stuff to get people buying a device which probably is only extremely useful to 0.001% of the "rich" population.
Copernicus
2012-10-16, 12:49
Well, the whole idea about owning a personal device is so you can use it to help you in life. And yes, a mobile PHONE is supposed to make phone CALLS. That was the whole point of it.
Definitely, the mobile phone was created to allow you to use the phone network without being tethered to one spot. And it's a great idea. But that's not the only thing I want to do without being tethered to one spot. :) I do want to be able to use the internet and manage information while on the go, and I like being able to do so with a pocketable device; not everything requires a huge video screen. Some things don't require a screen at all! (I very much like the idea of having a web server in my pocket. And allowing computers to "tether" to a cell phone for internet service is certainly a popular ability these days...)
Make calls and do the essential things on the move using a phone, use a laptop for other things.
Before the N900, I used to do just that. (I tried to use my iPhone as a tiny computer, but that was fruitless...) Nowadays, I can edit my files in vi or log into another PC, without having to lug around a laptop all the time.
If you want to do both, use a tablet - that's what they're created for.
Ugh. Really? I don't see the tablet as anything more than a portable TV. They're just as inconvenient to carry around as a laptop, as hard to type on as a cell phone, and honestly can't do as much as either a laptop or a smart phone. The worst of both worlds...
flopjoke
2012-10-16, 13:19
@Copernicus
OK, that's good.. the things you're able to do.. that's what a mobile phone is for in today's modern world. Manage files, web server.. I agree with you. It's pretty amazing to be able to do all that, I'm not against that.. I'm all up for it.
However, the point of this thread was to talk about the "multi-tasking" features which Android introduced.. specifically, playing video while browsing internet and all that. I think that this feature is pretty useless for a mobile phone and is just a marketing hype.
My points about tablets and laptops and phones was only from a multi-tasking view.
Copernicus
2012-10-16, 13:45
However, the point of this thread was to talk about the "multi-tasking" features which Android introduced.. specifically, playing video while browsing internet and all that. I think that this feature is pretty useless for a mobile phone and is just a marketing hype.
Ok, yeah, I gotta admit you're absolutely right there. :)
javispedro
2012-10-24, 15:07
What's on the first post looks more like gadgets than multitasking to me -- like old world Macs. You still need to code the floating "widgets" separately ; they cannot be normal applications. So exactly like DAs in old PalmOS.
In fact, both Android and iOS can do something better which is to run actual applications in windows:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db2UbDEgzEA
But you are still limited to the usual design limitations of a mostly monotasking environment. You cannot open more than one window from the same application, so no composing of multiple emails, no multiple chat windows, no copying and pasting of word documents...
Garbage.
Wait. I thought the n900 was a tablet? A Nokia Internet Tablet? Does that mean it cant be phone?
Copernicus
2012-10-24, 16:13
Wait. I thought the n900 was a tablet? A Nokia Internet Tablet? Does that mean it cant be phone?
:) :) Yes, by that definition it is a tablet. (Actually, I'm starting to get the feeling that, if the right definition is applied, any random object can be considered a tablet. :) )
But yeah, there are two distinct definitions of tablet running around here, one being the name Nokia gave to its internet tablet line, the other being the current crop of devices that are either iPads or iPad look-alikes. I guess I should be more careful to explicitly state which definition I'm using...
I can hardly understand why people are even discussing the term multitasking. The term can not suddenly be redefined because some companies want to use it as a buzzword in their commercials.
If you are backgrounding an application processwise to execute another, you are NOT multitasking the machine, you are rather multitasking the user (well, maybe that's what Mr. Jobs and other fluffy salespeople meant). Its just something you put in your sales pitch.
Its like putting putting beer on the table and call it whisky.
Get a grip here people!
Multitasking is strictly handled by a roundrobin prioritized scheduler, nothing else.
EDIT: As a sidenote, what I mean with prioritized is that the scheduler is able to preempt the execution of a process and let another run. If not, we are talking about what is usually called 'cooperative multitasking', which has its benefits of course when it comes to less complexity in regard to protection of memory and resources.
It all boils down to what audience of users and developers you are targeting, if we are talking about the numbskull java or objective-c developers who hardly have heard the words assembly, mutexes, semaphores or critical sections, you're better off with an OS that backgrounds and sandboxes the applications, with of course the limitation that on application level nothing is executing at the same time. Ok, maybe they can spawn some worker threads in their applications, but it still doesn't do it.
But, I for one like being able to, for instance ssh into my server, starting an application with x11 forwarding, do some video encoding while still be able listening to music, checking mail and make a phone call at the same time.
Please try doing that with a regular phone from the fruit company or a droid, I'd like to see that.
Multitasking for some people mean that you can start more than one application, switch to another while the previous one maintains its state data. That's not multitasking, no matter what you say.
javispedro
2012-10-25, 10:57
Please try doing that with a regular phone from the fruit company or a droid, I'd like to see that..
You can do that on a droid, just make the sshd server keep a wakelock 24h a day. But since all the Andridiot power management is designed around "being able to suspend as soon as possible and as often as possible" your battery craps itself.
I have been happy with "multitasking" in SGS3, for 5 months now.
For example, yesterday I was listening FM radio, while surfing the net with Firefox, playing games (TinyVillage, ModernWar), browsing photos. Also I had sshd running in the background all the time. It just works. I know most of the apps are not running in the background, but I do not care as long the system is highly responsive and I can continue where I left the application last time.
When something really needs to be run in the background, forcing to have a special service thread/process makes sure the developers do not put any battery or RAM wasting code there.
The "real multitasking" makes mobile systems unresponsive sooner or later. Those systems are not suitable for "normal people" and therefore cannot succeed in the ecosystem war.
But you are still limited to the usual design limitations of a mostly monotasking environment. You cannot open more than one window from the same application, so no composing of multiple emails, no multiple chat windows, no copying and pasting of word documents...
You know, most of the above also applies to Fremantle ;-) The underlying OS is more than capable, but the brilliant "UX designers" typically castrate it.
...But, I for one like being able to, for instance ssh into my server, starting an application with x11 forwarding, do some video encoding while still be able listening to music, checking mail and make a phone call at the same time.
Please try doing that with a regular phone from the fruit company or a droid, I'd like to see that...
I like the cut of your gib!
Often at work I am SSHd into my n900 doing computer type stuff WHILE using it as a music player and taking calls.
Hell, sometimes I am SSHd into my phone, SSHd into my server, SSHd into my router at home!
javispedro
2012-10-25, 14:49
You know, most of the above also applies to Fremantle ;-) The underlying OS is more than capable, but the brilliant "UX designers" typically castrate it.
Yes, you are totally right, and it is one of my complains in Harmattan. This is the reason I think that webOS has actually better multitasking, because their UX designers thought it out a little bit more.
What's on the first post looks more like gadgets than multitasking to me -- like old world Macs. You still need to code the floating "widgets" separately ; they cannot be normal applications. So exactly like DAs in old PalmOS.
In fact, both Android and iOS can do something better which is to run actual applications in windows:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db2UbDEgzEA
But you are still limited to the usual design limitations of a mostly monotasking environment. You cannot open more than one window from the same application, so no composing of multiple emails, no multiple chat windows, no copying and pasting of word documents...
Garbage.
Nice video on youtube. You mention that both Andoid and iOS does this but the video is for iOS. Do you know of an equivalent app for Android?
javispedro
2012-10-25, 15:24
Nice video on youtube. You mention that both Andoid and iOS does this but the video is for iOS. Do you know of an equivalent app for Android?
Comes stock with e.g. the galaxy note 2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6c7XaDWmJg
Comes stock with e.g. the galaxy note 2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6c7XaDWmJg
Well, I was hoping for something to run on my galaxy note 1...
In regards to multiple emails and such, with overskreen app you can open up multiple window for browsers to access emails. Also for copying and pasting with editor you can copy to clipboard which is saved so you can use in another document. Of the five apps shown in the first post you can open multiple windows with OverSkreen, hovernote, aircalc and stickit. There is another app called airterm which can make multiple floating terminals and I can use to ssh into ubuntu on my GN1). I just opened three of airterm, Overskreen, hovernote, and aircalc simultaneouly. So 12 open windows on my galaxy note screen. And, why not, fired up Angry Birds. My screen looks like a total mess! But I'm multitasking...
geektech
2012-11-12, 01:33
Please when you are on a call try to take a picture with the purpose of send it by mms and see what it say, I have sgs3 and it lag, crash and slow down of course do limited multitask, if you have a N9 do it you will be very surprise.
HELLASISGREECE
2012-11-12, 02:25
Can Android phones do this simple thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au1nFqxrUe8&feature=g-upl
just one (out of many) good true multitasking example.
Can Android phones do this simple thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au1nFqxrUe8&feature=g-upl
just one (out of many) good true multitasking example.
No, not in current state, but I don't miss it either if I want to play in minimize window I use my n900 :) I rather use multi view over this. That's why you should have several devices so you get the best of everything :)
dylanemcgregor
2012-11-13, 22:42
The RAM I just ordered for my laptop turned out to be incompatible. For support I used my n900 to start a live support chat in the browser. While I was on the chat I had to look up my order number in an email, and while I was doing that a work call came in (over SIP), that I had to answer. So I was on speakerphone, and copying information from my email into a live chat in the browser.
Honest question, can other smartphones do that? It seems like a fairly basic thing so I'd assume that Android and iPhone shouldn't have a problem with it, but I can also see the browser getting frozen in the background and losing the live chat connection.
I can do it on my phone, but I'm not sure about the iPhone. There was a time that you couldnt but that was when I had iOS 3 (?) on the i3G.
dylanemcgregor
2012-11-13, 22:58
Good to know. I'm pretty sure the one time I tried to do a Live Chat on an iPhone I wasn't even able to get it to launch, but that was probably on an iPhone 2G.
You know, most of the above also applies to Fremantle ;-) The underlying OS is more than capable, but the brilliant "UX designers" typically castrate it.
If you really want, you can install IceWM in Maemo5. Your maemo apps will open up in a win95ish window manager with taskbar and a start button and all that. It's actually pretty nice when hooked up to a TV and using bluetooth mouse and keyboard.
(Side note:) This thread does not appear to be about running this in NITDroid. Doesn't it belong in the Competitors forum instead of Alternatives? Can it be moved?
stickymick
2012-11-26, 09:57
I love these threads about multi-tasking.
"REAL" multi-tasking isn't about having a half-dozen applications on screen at once and having the ability to switch from one to the other.
"REAL" multi-tasking is about having a half-dozen applications on screen all doing something simultaneously, just like I used to do on my Commodore Amiga 19 years ago.
I'd have Imagine or Lightwave rendering a scene of objects, Vista Pro rendering the landscape that they are going to sit on, both churning away in the background while I'm working in Personal Paint on the textures that are going to be mapped to the objects.
That's 3 graphically intensive programs all "working" together and nothing sitting idle in the background.
Here's a good way to test muti-tasking on the N900:
Start Bounce Evolution and let the intro animation kick in, then hit Ctrl+Backspace. Now start a video in KMPlayer, enable fullscreen and hit Ctrl+Backspace again and see what happens.
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