View Full Version : [Backcover] Jolla's "Other Half" - Ideas and Suggestions
onethreealpha
2013-05-21, 22:42
Clearly with little information to go on, and nothing more than speculation regarding the means of connectivity, I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread to open discussion around the sort of "Other Half" concepts that could be used with the upcoming Jolla Handset.
Certainly videos of the "I Am The Other Half" event and associated interviews have indicated a range of existing ideas from lens and flash attachments to theme and content options.
Of course the first to come forward for those of us who still hold the N900 dear to hearts (and hands) would be a qwerty slider "half"
As my graphic design skills are about as hopeless as my coding skills, I'll be more than happy to leave it for others to offer renders! :D
If nothing else, this thread may provide fertile ground as a rudimentary "suggestion box" to Jolla for further consideration.
As I said elsewhere, e-ink display and solar panel w/battery (so that we can charge the cover seperately from the phone)
Another idea is game controls like nintendo circle pad and rear touchpad a la psVita.
onethreealpha
2013-05-21, 23:40
I'm intrigued by the idea of a clambook style "other half" where the connection point allows the handset to become a trackpad/mouse. After all, there's no reason the other half needs to be dimensionally proportionate.
Assuming a wireless screensharing capability and bluetooth HID for the keyboard, this could push SailfishOS right into the tablet market as well.
max_power
2013-05-21, 23:42
Ethernet-Port with Power over Ethernet for charging. So you could take it into office and use it for VoIP fun and at the end of the day it is charged.
Headphone amp and with the space left possible extended battery.
Keyboard slider.
Camera lens with cover.
Pressure sensitive drawing screen packed with stylus.
Audio OH with analogue and digital input / output and a mic appropriate for recording. :)
soryuuha
2013-05-22, 00:36
first of all, keyboard slider
if possible, drawing tablet
youmeego
2013-05-22, 02:06
solar charging cover
nokiabot
2013-05-22, 02:28
Infrared . Extra lens . Fm tx . :)
Just an opinion, but...
I think the 'Other-Half' deserved its own thread considering the currency of the topic, the ambiguity followers are facing with the lack of information, and the potential realisation of the imaginative OH.
Why scatter a focussed topic? It can be so difficult and time consuming sometimes to navigate the thousands of posts under one general thread! :confused:
onethreealpha
2013-05-22, 04:22
Just an opinion, but...
I think the 'Other-Half' deserved its own thread considering the currency of the topic, the ambiguity followers are facing with the lack of information, and the potential realisation of the imaginative OH.
Why scatter a focussed topic? It can be so difficult and time consuming sometimes to navigate the thousands of posts under one general thread! :confused:
After careful consideration, this is why I decided specifically to create a separate thread.
I'm not in the habit of willfully creating threads for no reason, however, the mods rule the roost and if they deem this to fall under Cartsten's suggestion to throw the whole lot in together, that's their prerogative.
:rolleyes:
Yeah... at this time I'd say the development of ideas on the topic should free-flow, particularly where the OH is concerned. Jolla only a few days ago stated that the community is still very much involved in the hardware development discussion.
I was kinda stoked to follow a thread dedicated to the OH where members could bounce off each other's imagination of what the OH could be and perhaps see things evolve in one place.
Still possible in the mix I suppose... just have to read through every other question, concern, criticism, etc... :rolleyes:
Why have a whole forum if we're going to merge irrelevant threads with one another? There is no link in merging other half ideas with questions and criticisms, it harms both threads, and destroys any possibility of gathering together ideas for halves tersely.
I got some ideas about the OH as well.
1. The cover with additional storage (say 8-16 GB) for media content, especially HD videos, with a kickstand ala N900 and N86 for watching those videos comfortably.
2. The in-vehicle phone holder with powerful GPS receiver and FM transmitter (it just stays there and you clip the phone into it).
But the important thing in all the ocean of ideas we got, the OH MUST NOT bear the usual price tag of crApple products.
433,92MHz radio For control relays, lights and doors. Wireless charge.
what about a car or bike holder which can be plugged as other half... that could bring to deactivate automatic lock? Or enhanced GPS reception?
my dream is
1- hardware keyboard
2- a dock station (HDMI, Ethernet, USB)
3- stand like N900
4- interchangeble system of Lens
5- battery pack
6- gamepad
7- dolby surround pack
knobtviker
2013-05-22, 09:13
Jolla halves I'd like to see, support and/or buy: qwerty keyboard, wireless charging, optical camera magnifier, custom car holder, fingerprint security recognition, extended battery, projector, secondary small OLED display. :)
Hardware QWERTY is pretty much logical assumption, so I won't go into details with it.
A wireless charging cover with matched slide-in car cradle - I'm sick of putting and removing cables from my devices whenever I get in / out of my car. Additionally, the cover (or the cradle) can contain an enlarged antenna for better GPS reception in tight urban environments.
A dock cover (can be additional function of the above) which exposes everything relevant so that the device can be docked in a desktop-like setting, transferring all the interfaces to external monitor/keyboard/mouse... As a bonus, the OS would adjust to such environment becoming a traditional-looking Linux distro.
And if a proper USB2.0 interface is exposed, as I've suggested (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1345867#post1345867), then we can really go wild with additional functionality like adding storage, network interfaces, a slew of additional sensors, software controlled color change or an additional display, etc. etc.
slaapliedje
2013-05-22, 09:41
(just a quick jab) They should create a proprietary cable so that the Apple fans will be happy!
Actually what would be fairly cool is to have a replaceable back that is a mostly clear plastic, but have some small led's built into it that when the weather changes (for example) the phone's ambient color changes.
Like the clear case here; http://www.amazon.com/CY-Raspberry-Pi-Case-Blackberry/dp/B00ASJRMT0/ref=sr_sp-btf_image_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1369215530&sr=8-13&keywords=raspberry+pi
Could even create an API so that either the Ambient theme creation or say video play back would make it light up. Like so;
http://www.eclipsetvlights.com/led-kits/#
That would be really spectacular for an alarm clock too. :D
When I realised what the "other half" meant, I thought they should show a qwerty keyboard half, instead we saw different colour back covers :confused:
other half ideas:
IR port
But then do we have to several "other halves" in order to have hw keyboard, IR port, larger battery? N900 had all those integrated!
JulmaHerra
2013-05-22, 10:12
Just thinking about that custom car holder... What if the "other half" for car was actually whole unit plugged in place of car audio receiver, containing holder for the phone, small amplifier, FM-radio and connections to other car functions like remote controls or even ODB-port. Plugging in the device would change the UI of the phone so that it would automatically become main interface for radio, audio, GPS/navigation etc. functions, automatically connect to hands free system in the car and charge the device at the same time so there wouldn't be any need for separate charging cables etc.
Just thinking about that custom car holder... What if the "other half" for car was actually whole unit plugged in place of car audio receiver, containing holder for the phone, small amplifier, FM-radio and connections to other car functions like remote controls or even ODB-port. Plugging in the device would change the UI of the phone so that it would automatically become main interface for radio, audio, GPS/navigation etc. functions, automatically connect to hands free system in the car and charge the device at the same time so there wouldn't be any need for separate charging cables etc.
oh.....juicy.....
onethreealpha
2013-05-22, 10:34
Just thinking about that custom car holder... What if the "other half" for car was actually whole unit plugged in place of car audio receiver, containing holder for the phone, small amplifier, FM-radio and connections to other car functions like remote controls or even ODB-port. Plugging in the device would change the UI of the phone so that it would automatically become main interface for radio, audio, GPS/navigation etc. functions, automatically connect to hands free system in the car and charge the device at the same time so there wouldn't be any need for separate charging cables etc.
was thinking of this today and imagining an interface for a reversing camera as well..
I just want a keyboard case and then I'll be happy.
max_power
2013-05-22, 12:09
I just realized, if Jolla plays this other half right, they could become the Arduino for phones - Jollaino. But they have to open up the specs and release 3D models (like Nokia did with the Lumia case http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:43157) of the other half, so you could print your own half and play with it.
Is there anything concrete information about how the other half works? Has anyone asked (Twitter?) Jolla about this?
This information must be available at least for hardware partners. Does it take a company to become their partner or can our community become one?
Many great ideas that I won't repeat.
A "nice to have" would be a digital DJ-oriented half that has multiple line-outs for both monitoring in headphones and the master signal for speakers. USB ports to connect midi controllers and an external harddrive of music files. Would all come down to the quality of the apps, but maybe there already exists something for android. Something like the Urbanears "Slussen" connector/app for iDevices. Would be fun.
I think I would generally go for a more expensive half that does many "necessary" things moderately well then a multitude of halves that just do one thing really well. I can't see myself owning more than 3-4 halves: 1 for everyday use (that did storage, battery stuff), and a few for application-specific use like serious photography, DJing, or car use.
I don't think I would do profile-specific halves like they mentioned, it's too trivial a use-case for me (work vs freetime). I would want to minimize the situations where I was wishing I brought an alternate half with me.
Is there anything concrete information about how the other half works? Has anyone asked (Twitter?) Jolla about this?
This information must be available at least for hardware partners. Does it take a company to become their partner or can our community become one?
This is where it starts to get really interesting. From watching all of the videos it appears that Jolla is getting questioned on the Other Half, but they're not showing all of their cards just yet. Certainly will be eventually necessary for the hardware to develop appropriately.
I would absolutely love to see a company like Echo Audio (http://echoaudio.com/) design an audio interface Other Half :cool:. I dream of being able to not only plug-in but set the input audio levels to make reasonable field recordings with a bit of dynamic range and without distortion. Output as well at an additional headphone stage (amplified) as well as digitally (usb or otherwise). :)
I would love to see a mobile digital tv receiver on the other half. Or perhaps a DAB receiver. Or a Satellite Phone so when you are going to remote locations you have emergency access. Along with that perhaps a second GSM sim cover so you could use it seamlessly while roaming. So many ideas...
The e-ink screen sounds good, I read alot with my Kindle and having an (almost bezeless) e-ink on the other size just for reading or billboard usage would be awesome, (4.5-4.8 inch), with very very low power consumption.
Still, and irda+keyboard combo would still win though :)
Wikiwide
2013-05-22, 17:06
I kind of disagreee here... Whats a camel; a horse designed by committee.
You cannot get a clear design vision out of polling randoim dudes off the net, sorry.
Might sound a bit elitist but it's a fact of life :D
Agree. Jolla has to give something truly innovative and revolutional to truly attract consumers after all this long waiting.
Otherwise, the device will be ignored, like BlackBerry 10: it has Swype-like interface, business-oriented features like usual, but it doesn't gain BlackBerry new consumers - at most, it protects the company from losing its usual customers, business men.
The fact is, with world-wide economic crisis continuing, people would prefer to continue using their old phones. They can make and accept calls, include a game or two; there is no need to buy a shiny new toy if it is not much different from the old one.
Waterproof and shockproof smartphones may get a modicum of interest from the public since the concept of invulnerable and comfortable-to-use device is both tempting and unattainable.
The Jolla's concept is revolutional. Imagine: by changing the other half, you switch from private-contacts, and memory with private documents, to business-contacts, and memory with business documents.
You can have as many "other halves" as you wish, enabling ultimate information security. It's like exchanging microSD cards - only much easier to use, since microSD cards can be lost or confused easily.
He says it almost verbatim in this interview (http://pocketnow.com/2013/05/20/jolla-interview-marc-dillon). He also himself mentions examples of use as a bigger flash and bigger battery, so it's not just rumour.
What puzzles me is that they focus *so much* on being able to change the colors when they apparently plan to provide a way to actually change and adapt the hardware components (und thus use cases) of your phone.
Many people probably mentioned it earlier: to maintain customers' interest in the phone, they release this information slowly. Also, they release hardware information only after securing contract with hardware manufacturer, to avoid ridiculously high prices from these mongers.
Now... Who remembers MobileMind, an N900-program allowing to control a robot-car through bluetooth, with artificial intelligence to follow colour-marked route? Bluetooth uses a lot of power, as any wireless technology. Now imagine that a toy-car, or toy-helicopter, or toy-hawk, instead of being radio-controlled, has interface to be attached to Jolla phone as "the other half". With appropriate application, you can have mobile artificial intelligence. It would have one-or-two cameras and wireless connectivity (cellular, radio, WirelessLAN, Bluetooth) and speakers-microphone of Jolla phone, it would have wheels of whatever other half you attached, it would probably be waterproof...
It would be ultimate runaway phone. The owner would have to ask a passer-by.
Can you please send an SMS to my phone to find out where it is? My phone has run away, and I don't know to which location it could have possibly decided to go...
And the passer-by would answer.
Oh, yes, of course. What's your phone number? Are you using program X? It has a well-known bug Y. I personally use a dog's leash to avoid this problem.
I expect that Jolla will manufacture only Jolla phone and many colours of mundane-other-half. Exotic other halves would be manufactured by other companies who would have to pay to Jolla for permission to use OtherHalf interface - patents can be useful like that - and Jolla would advertise some of these other-halves by producing open-source software to interact with them.
Some possible OtherHalf ideas:
rotating camera with optical zoom which can easily create a panorama by itself without forcing the human to rotate the whole device;
hardware keyboard (different shapes of it);
wireless charging and-or large battery and-or solar charger;
optical camera magnifier and-or telescope and-or microscope;
custom car holder - even better, the whole car as OtherHalf, wholly interfaced with the phone, and driven by artificial intelligence application on Jolla phone;
fingerprint security recognition and-or heart rate and-or iris recognition and-or blood analysis (imagine: OtherHalf with medical tools for ambulanceman, with software and hardware uniquely suited for this task);
projector and-or flashlight and-or laser and-or secondary small OLED display and-or eink display;
oh, yes, weather-based chameleon would be awesome, too - only, it should have barometer, thermometer, magnetometer, light sensor, and humidity meter, to detect weather without having to use Internet.
Many great ideas that I won't repeat.
A "nice to have" would be a digital DJ-oriented half that has multiple line-outs for both monitoring in headphones and the master signal for speakers...
I think I would generally go for a more expensive half that does many "necessary" things moderately well then a multitude of halves that just do one thing really well. I can't see myself owning more than 3-4 halves: 1 for everyday use (that did storage, battery stuff), and a few for application-specific use like serious photography, DJing, or car use.
I don't think I would do profile-specific halves like they mentioned, it's too trivial a use-case for me (work vs freetime). I would want to minimize the situations where I was wishing I brought an alternate half with me.
About ports: It's possible that Jolla first got OtherHalf idea from looking at debug-service modules and thinking: why cannot these debug ports of Jolla phone be made more accessible, so that it would be easier to debug the hardware?
About expensive-cheap multifunctional-vs-profile-specific; some occasions, like geology or medicine, might require specific instruments, and having precise and computer-assisted instruments in a profile-specific OtherHalf would be extremely helpful. But yes, most people don't need such profile-specific OtherHalves, and will choose multifunctional OtherHalves. But these multifunctional devices will not include a microscope-or-whatever to analyse a stone and say which mineral it is made of.
Best wishes.
Since Jolla will grant franchises on OtherHalf to other companies, the resulting concepts will be created by a committee of the most successful companies, and the final products will be an Arabian or Bactrian camel, a dromedary, a llama. And it will be all the better for that. In my opinion, the proud and hardy camel is better than a well-groomed horse.
benny1967
2013-05-22, 17:18
I'm sorry I haven't had the time to catch up with everything jolla since I came back home from the alps. :)
One question: Did they share any information about the way the OH is connected to the main device electronically? Although they say only our imagination is the limit, I'm afraid wiring will be. (I mean... there's no way to add a DVB-T-receiver as proposed here if the circuits can only handle the typical data rate of a keyboard... or a second screen is out of the question if you can only get data in, not out... etc etc)
other half with sim-card and microsdhc chip: this would make an excellent "work other half", for those who need a separate work number but do not wish to carry multiple devices.
mikecomputing
2013-05-22, 17:34
Is there anything concrete information about how the other half works? Has anyone asked (Twitter?) Jolla about this?
This information must be available at least for hardware partners. Does it take a company to become their partner or can our community become one?
They hide it and will probadly leak some info later on.
There is plenty of reason why they hide info. MANY copycats out there.
I'd love to see an OH with another processor for running heavy software in sort of a two-machine distributed network. USB might support that but I doubt serial over GPIO could.
You know how some cars only require the key be near-by? Build that into an OH.
An OH that is a printer, credit card scanner, as a point-of-sale device with a real paper reciept
Or a photo-quality printer like an old school polaroid
optimaxxx
2013-05-22, 18:21
Haha, spent like an hour researching all available info and stuff to make a thread discussing the facts on this but it f***ing disappeared!
My fav idea:
the OH mounts into the head unit in your vehicle (becoming the screen, and effectively all of the cpu bits). This, would make me buy this phone.
it should have barometer, thermometer, magnetometer, light sensor, and humidity meter, to detect weather without having to use Internet.
Yeah' also got the idea od including additional (or more sensitive) sensors when I've remembered the Navigation board[1] - IT has accelerometer, barometer, magnetotometer and a gyroscope + some pins free for use. So if there indeed is an electrical interface, it could be usable almost of the shelf. :-)
[1] http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=Navigation%20Board
Hmmm... Nokia was teasing solar technology on their conversations site not long ago (something to the tune 'summer is coming' in Feb? might've been overinterpreted by MNB and it was just about upcoming summer announcements, no idea). The OH gives this quite a spin. With a solar panel the size of normal back cover solar is not an option with today's tech, you might prevent the charge going down on a sunny summer day, maybe gain a couple of percents of charge after keeping the phone idle for a few hours. With OH: deployable back cover making the area 3x (or 5x) larger, this might work. So futuristic too (queue in ads showing space probes/ships deploying solar panels, future is now, in your pocket...)
abyzthomas
2013-05-22, 20:51
It would be nice if "Other Half" covers connects to a physical USB 3 interface on the phone that support host mode and plug-n-play, rather than NFC/blue tooth/wireless.
A "Other half" with usb hub that you can plugin a 4 TB hard disk, keyboard, mouse, bar code scanner, RF id reader, or what ever USB devices you my have.
A "Other half" maybe something that allows us to plug in a standard SDXC card with the feature(s), instead of carrying around several "Other half" covers that just offers us 1 extra feature. Just carry around a bunch of SDXC cards will be much easier and more practical. Other half may even support multiple SDXC slots. This makes it easy for developers to come up with SD cards instead of a full back cover.
Other Half/SD Card options I am thinking of.
A car key that allows you to start/stop the car.
A key that recognizes when I am away and locks my PC.
A secure payment method
A key that provides extra security for emails, etc.
A "presentation" OH. It would have a laser pointer, wireless button device to advance slides, maybe a thumbdrive or retractable USB cord to xfer the slides to the PC.
Just brainstorming. Its UMPC periferals!
An "erector set" OH. It would basically just be a robotic platform with a back with lots of mounting brackets / holes and an interface for a microcontroller.
A "pilot buddy" OH. It would have the minimum required FAA instruments and the emergency locator beacon. Useful for hikers too if they get lost.
One thing that worries me... Apple was dumb for making a proprietary connector that generated an entire market for iphone accessories with that connector.
Without some kind of standard connector, I see the OH resulting in the same thing... a slew of peripheral devices that are only compatible with one phone.
Do we think the second Jolla will have the same OH or will it be like the new Apple connector and completely different?
There needs to be some way to make it generic so people who want to can cut up and hack together their own OH with off-the-shelf components.
onethreealpha
2013-05-22, 22:07
Renders of the Other Half on the Jolla website are remarkably lacking on fine detail, although it would appear that NFC tagging would be the most logical choice for the current half being shown, if only based on the "trigger" to change themes, colours and icons etc.
We will wait and see, but since Marc said anything is possible, there's certainly no harm in throwing ideas around.
I'm sure some of the jolla sailors will pop in at some stage to see what is being discussed ;)
colakang
2013-05-23, 06:04
use SLI / BigLittle mode, "Other Half" can add cpu / gpu / ram~~
That's what i want.
:D
A "presentation" OH. It would have a laser pointer, wireless button device to advance slides, maybe a thumbdrive or retractable USB cord to xfer the slides to the PC.
Just brainstorming. Its UMPC periferals!
And a pico projector.
use SLI
Well...
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/3535/presentation02copy.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/29/presentation02copy.jpg/)
There needs to be some way to make it generic so people who want to can cut up and hack together their own OH with off-the-shelf components.
On the more sane side of discussion:
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/883/jolla.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/259/jolla.jpg/)
http://photos-4.dropbox.com/t/0/AABMPJhD2cE_PiFDYxnDsFCso4FY2_f_fcDyReilO5OvOg/12/60358506/jpeg/1024x768/3/1369306800/0/2/jolla.jpg/jmN46HjyqiS736Muy_9I94KECONTe_kAJ-yyQBdY5Ug
I was thinking about the requirements for the other half interface, and my bet is that USB would indeed be the best candidate. USB gives the possibility of using the broadest spectrum of devices, it's well specified, and works like charm on Linux devices.
I see the need to have both USB client mode (for computer connection) and USB host mode (for gadget connection)
However, if it is required that the interface would both source current to devices, and be able to sink current (for a contactless charging other half, for example) I think more than just pins for one USB interface is preferred.
If you just have exposed VCC, GNC, D+ and D-, it's possible to use the VC pins to both source and sink, but this requires complex (and error-prone) logic to determine what mode the pins are operating. Same way having just D+ and D+ requires backend to configure the device to work either as USB host or USB guest.
Hence I propose, that there should be 2 separete USB interfaces:
one interface for USB host mode that can source current, maybe up to 150mA (there's battery life to consider, we don't want to drain it too fast) one interface for USB client mode, that can sink current from a charging solution
Alltogether that makes 8 pins, or let's say 7 if the interfaces use common GND.
Solar would be ok, but what is so special about it? Nokia had this option (Nokia battery BBT-1L) 15 years ago for Nokia 1610 / 1630...
jerryfreak
2013-05-23, 11:05
y'all are behind the curve. im already working on the fleshlight attachment
onethreealpha
2013-05-23, 11:50
I'm looking at how RFID technology is now using sensors to transfer/stream data.
NFC, if i'm correct is essentially an evolution of RFID. It transmits data to trigger a configured set of events (in the case of Mobile, usually as a catalyst for and ID establisher for bluetooth/wireless comms)
Amazing potential to use current RFID - sensor input embedded in theother half to pick up heartrate, temp, humidity, or replace sensors with embedded data or information. include a usb connection to load that info and you have a fully replaceable data store and management solution that you could swap between handsets.
One back with all your work stuff on it and at the end of the day, swap it over for all your movies and music on the trip home.
abyzthomas
2013-05-23, 12:47
I was thinking about the requirements for the other half interface, and my bet is that USB would indeed be the best candidate...
Yes. Like I said in post #42 (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1346062&postcount=42) , it must support USB 3.
This opens up many possibilities and the vendors does not have to do a lot to come up with solutions. Vendor can design docking station OH with a USB hub and a bunch of ports to support what ever devices.
The interface must be clean and unique. I am not sure if they should go with standard USB interface. Apple always wins with a non-standard interface. I hate that but this is a special situation and the cover has to hold on to the body without making it too bulky. So there maybe a reason for a custom interface that makes it clean, unique and cool.
ravi_kumar
2013-05-23, 12:59
it should have -
a slide out keyboard
infrared
fmtx
pressure sensitive screen (for painting)
flashlight
then:o only we n900 users could replace new sailfish phone:o with our n900
Hence I propose, that there should be 2 separete USB interfaces
Well, there's already a USB slave interface up top, so why add a third USB PHY?
I think that in addition to 5 pins on the side of the device (see here (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/259/jolla.jpg/)), a dumb V+ and V- a la Nokia barrel connector power supply would do.
Assuming the connector on the external housing is keyed with a small notch, I doubt people would stick the USB portion into the charging portion.
Various things come to mind...
DVB-T
fmrx/tx
Camera optics/microscope/macro
Dockingstation Pins (four tiny little gold dots)
Magnetic Car Holder
DiaryCover(TM)
Inductive Charger
Cardreader SIM/SD/magnetic
Laserpointer
DMXcontrol
192kHz/24bit Stereo-port
PDMS/Samsung'sMI
5GHz HIDserver (wireless mouse/kbd for your desktop)
Guitarhero-like buttons
Braille interface (Klaus Knopper's wife comes to mind)
Sensors humidity/temp/wind/light/distance
Scales
Money clip
CD/DVD/BD-Player
knock yourself out!
mrsellout
2013-05-23, 16:29
...
CD/DVD/BD-Player
...
That's brilliant! Finally Dave999 can have his Disc-phone. :p
Hence I propose, that there should be 2 separete USB interfaces:
Well, there's already a USB slave interface up top, so why add a third USB PHY?
I think that in addition to 5 pins on the side of the device (see http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/259/jolla.jpg), a dumb V+ and V- a la Nokia barrel connector power supply would do.
Assuming the connector on the external housing is keyed with a small notch, I doubt people would stick the USB portion into the charging portion.
Well, I was thinking of an use case where you have more than one functionality in the same OH unit, like when there is both wireless charging device or spare battery and something that acts as an USB client.
My idea here was that the charging interface should propably be USB, as that is already implemented in the device and has the proper current sourcing negotiation.
If, at the same time you want to have something there that is controlled by the USB it would need to have the other USB port also.
BTW, about the picture in your post, where you cansee the pins on the backside, is that a real device or an illustration?
If that's a real picture then I belive you are correct, and the OH interface has just one USB.
However, this then begs the question how do you safely determine whether the VC pins are sink or source? And what about the use case where you need both at the same time?
(well, of course you can argue that the VC pins are ALWAYS sink and since the OH in question is able to source current it should be able to power itself... but what about when it's not connected to charger, or if it contains a spare battery, the battery's flat?)
PS: Now as I looked at the picture again I feel there could be another solution to this problem. As it's 5pin connector, ther could be the following pin assignments:
GND D+ D- Vcc_IN Vcc_OUT
BTW, about the picture in your post, where you cansee the pins on the backside, is that a real device or an illustration?
It's a mockup I put together in Photoshop, taken from how the Galaxy Nexus does it.
(It's also incredibly hacker-friendly, only requiring someone cut and strip a USB cable and some electrical tape)
I guess a second row of 5 pins that go straight to the charging hardware would work too, allowing OH functions to continue working while charging on a dock/wirelessly, and at the same time double the device's expansion ports.
Now only if Jolla would add some PHYs for us ;)
jecargo22
2013-05-25, 12:46
A multimedia streamer? I'm fed up of that brick hanging in my neck that connects my N9 to my hearing aids, there has to be a more compact version of it. The OH would be the ideal solution.
So, phonak, oticom and siemens, please start manufacturing OH streamers for your hearing aids! Someone to twitter that idea mainstream for me please.
I would crave my name on a back-cover.. But other than that, I would definitely use a hardware keyboard.
mikecomputing
2013-05-25, 14:18
Yes. Like I said in post #42 (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1346062&postcount=42) , it must support USB 3.
This opens up many possibilities and the vendors does not have to do a lot to come up with solutions. Vendor can design docking station OH with a USB hub and a bunch of ports to support what ever devices.
The interface must be clean and unique. I am not sure if they should go with standard USB interface. Apple always wins with a non-standard interface. I hate that but this is a special situation and the cover has to hold on to the body without making it too bulky. So there maybe a reason for a custom interface that makes it clean, unique and cool.
Again show me a mobile SoC with USB3 that is EXISTING today? People you are to damn unrealistic about the HW.
mobile SoC with USB3 that is EXISTING today?
Here. (http://www.arndaleboard.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page)
Note: The Exynos 5 (http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/minisite/Exynos/products5dual.html) (see: SGS4 International) supports USB 3.0 speeds, however, it is omitted from the phones because the MLC/TLC eMMC chips can't even try to get close to that.
mikecomputing
2013-05-25, 14:42
Here. (http://www.arndaleboard.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page)
Note: The Exynos 5 (http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/minisite/Exynos/products5dual.html) (see: SGS4 International) supports USB 3.0 speeds, however, it is omitted from the phones because the MLC/TLC eMMC chips can't even try to get close to that.
And what do you think the price is for so new SoC in small volumes? :O
I Say again its to unrealistic beleive Jolla will have so new SoC also Jolla has stated its a midrange device.
And what do you think the price is for so new SoC in small volumes? :O
I Say again its to unrealistic beleive Jolla will have so new SoC also Jolla has stated its a midrange device.
Its to early to say, I think we can actually see a low end device if they wait to end of 2013. What is mid end today is low end in 6 month.
I haven't seen any negative implications this modular approach can have, so let's bring some up.
What about the camera? If I have a HW keyboard as the OH, how I'm I supposed to take pictures with the internal camera? If the camera was on the other side, than is shown on the prototype, it might be possible to take pictures with the keyboard open, but this way?
And what do you think the price is for so new SoC in small volumes? :O
I Say again its to unrealistic beleive Jolla will have so new SoC also Jolla has stated its a midrange device.
$25 for a single chip, tops.
A single Exynos 5 ARM PC is $250 (http://www.howchip.com/shop/item.php?it_id=AND5250B), including lots of daughterboards and connectivity components.
As it is right now, it seems that Jolla will be using some derivation of the ST-Ericsson NovaThor SoCs for the Jolla.
If they're using those chips, I highly doubt they'd be able to complete another platform in ~6 months - what they have now is likely being refined to make a solid phone.
Which leaves the question: Will Jolla make a phone purely for the masturbation of the enthusiast users, or will they take advantage of the (yet to be detailed) Other Half?
mikecomputing
2013-05-25, 15:48
$25 for a single chip, tops.
A single Exynos 5 ARM PC is $250 (http://www.howchip.com/shop/item.php?it_id=AND5250B), including lots of daughterboards and connectivity components.
As it is right now, it seems that Jolla will be using some derivation of the ST-Ericsson NovaThor SoCs for the Jolla.
If they're using those chips, I highly doubt they'd be able to complete another platform in ~6 months - what they have now is likely being refined to make a solid phone.
Which leaves the question: Will Jolla make a phone purely for the masturbation of the enthusiast users, or will they take advantage of the (yet to be detailed) Other Half?
LOL 25$ for low volumes no damn way. I beleive it when i see it.
optimaxxx
2013-05-25, 18:02
In case anybody here's interested, this whole design concept of the OH (Other Half), is an amazingly targeted chinese design.
In china, it's the "done" thing for couples to wear matching clothes, it's a huge industry, it's hard for me to explain how huge this is there (http://travel.cnn.com/shanghai/life/way-chinese-say-love-through-clothes-355601).
What does that potentially mean for the intent behind the OH?
Well, it would mean it's been designed not for awesome mods, but for simple yet unmistakable, personalisation. Now that upsets me just as much as the rest of you (if not more, goodbye arduino-jolla halfbreed), but I can see the brilliance of this for the chinese market. The better the jolla phone nets them a sizeable chunk of the chinese market, the better-prepared they'll be to create a device for our tastes later on..
If all this waiting doesn't kill us first :/
Hi,
I think it would be very cool to have the other half have legs to walk, and that the phone recognizes its owner and follows him or her around (goes in line with the face recognition unlock feature).
Furthermore, since the device will be more or less bulletproof (j/k but hey look at the N900 that can be used as the hard place in "a rock and..."), a picatinny adaptor and maybe also a rail while we're at it?
From a girl's point of view: with a compartement to hold stuff like (ok now you were already waiting for it, sipping your beer) makeup, hair ties and pins, a credit card, a mirror inside maybe since the front cameras usually are a little bit too coarse for the job.
Airbag! That's it. Make an airbag into it. If the device detects it's going balistic, inflate the airbag and save the phone from drowning or crashing.
Kind regards,
Sarah
aironeous
2013-05-25, 20:59
From http://electronicdesign.com/mobile/fundamentals-integrating-usb-30-ip-soc
--
Early adoption of USB 3.0 began in 2010, and more than 70 million USB 3.0 host chips shipped in 2011. Now, key USB software and systems providers are shipping high volumes of products with USB 3.0. The USB 3.0 ecosystem is in place. USB 3.0 is no longer just for cutting-edge applications. The time has come for all system-on-a-chip (SoC) designers to implement USB 3.0. Are you ready?
This article will help you prepare for the technical challenges associated with integrating a compliant USB 3.0 solution. You’ll understand implementation considerations in using USB 3.0 IP, including selecting configurable controller intellectual property (IP) and robust physical-layer (PHY) IP. Finally, we’ll get into the challenges and solutions for IP testability, verification, hardware validation, driver implementation, and interoperability testing.
Table Of Contents
Key Features Of The USB 3.0 Protocol
Second Physical Datapath
Power Efficiency With Interrupt-Driven Protocol
USB 3.0 IP Selection Challenges
Seven Requirements For Reusable USB 3.0 IP
Flexible USB 3.0 Controller IP
Robust USB 3.0 PHY IP
USB 3.0 IP Test And Testability Implementation
Thorough, Reusable Verification Flow
FPGA Prototyping And Hardware Validation
Complete Device Drivers And Programming Models
USB-IF Certification
USB 3.0 IP Selection
Summary
References
--
I think this is one.
http://www.heise.de/ct/meldung/Triple-Core-ARM-SoC-mit-USB-3-0-und-3D-Video-Beschleuniger-1095559.html
SoC's and devices I found using google
http://investor.marvell.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=120802&p=irol-newsArticle&id=1474123
http://www.arndaleboard.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
http://www.frescologic.com/products_show.php?ms=2
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=conewsstory&tkr=NELTY:US&sid=aeFwyOyQZsZY
http://am.renesas.com/press/news/2013/news20130306.jsp
http://www.asmedia.com.tw/eng/e_products.php
http://www.via.com.tw/en/resources/pressroom/pressrelease.jsp?press_release_no=5887
http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/interface/usb-host-and-on-the-go-products.page?paramCriteria=no
I just had a thought, what if the other half is planned to be a rasberry pi type of thing?
If it was a usb 3.0 device it would be quite pricey like this one
http://www.mitxpc.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MBJNF99FL-525
y'all are behind the curve. im already working on the fleshlight attachment
Jerryfreak and 5 Users are... weirdos
Back to the USB 3.0 vs SoCs thingie - who says that it has to be within the SoC? You can buy a cheapo SoC and slam next to it a USB 3.0 hub (provided, of course, that the SoC exposes the internal bus and can talk via GPIO with other components, and most of them do) - I've already mentioned SMSC as a provider of quite cheap yet reliable ICs for all kinds of things, and of course they have a USB3.0 hub as well (http://www.smsc.com/Products/USB/USB_Hubs/Standalone_USB_Hubs/USB553xB). So, slam it on instead of waiting for a cheap enough SoC that comes with it, and your problem is solved. Hardkernel (http://www.hardkernel.com/) for example uses their controllers instead of relying on the anorexic USB facilities of the Exynos 4.
That being said, I really see no reason why a phone would have USB 3.0 facilities as even the fastest eMMCs are slower than USB 2.0 in optimal conditions. If you want to push graphics through it, HDMI is by far a better solution, and then there is Thunderbolt... Either way, unless you want to have the OH as a docking station to which you connect other peripherals, USB2.0 in a proper dual host/OTG mode is more than enough for pretty much anything you'd want to interface with.
Of course, if you're thinking of extending the core specs via the OH, then none of these interfaces are good enough - you'd have to expose the GPIO and VBUS at the very least, and even then you won't be able to affect the internally packed SoC's limitations all that much.
I would crave my name on a back-cover.
I see nobody mentioned 3D printing yet.
This allows for almost limitless niche possibilities. For example, a climber could build a chunky Other Half with a shock absorbent video camera, extra battery and pulley system. The camera could then record their ascent, automatically climing/descending, respond to voice commands ("auto", "up", "down", "emergency" etc) whilst measuring atmospherics, GPS etc.
All easily doable with off-the-shelf components and a 3D printer.
mikecomputing
2013-05-26, 11:51
Back to the USB 3.0 vs SoCs thingie - who says that it has to be within the SoC? You can buy a cheapo SoC and slam next to it a USB 3.0 hub (provided, of course, that the SoC exposes the internal bus and can talk via GPIO with other components, and most of them do)
......
Do people never get it you are expecting to damn much about the specs!
10basetom
2013-05-26, 20:03
This was originally posted as a comment on The Verge's Jolla reveal article, but it's probably lost in a sea of comments there, so I'm reposting it here (with a few additions)...
Since not much information has been disclosed regarding the communication technology between the phone half and the "other" half -- whether it's using NFC, whether there's a physical contact that carries voltage -- please consider the ideas below as only a geek's wet dream:
Keyboard flipcover
Gamepad flipcover
Sound backcover with stereo speakers that sound as good as the HTC One
Solar charger backcover
Induction charger backcover
Extended battery backcover
Camera backcover to improve night time photography
Photo printer backcover
Card scanner backcover
Pico projector backcover
DAC/headphone amp backcover
Media extender backcover with HDMI out, optical and S/PDIF out, aptX, etc.
Signal amplifier backcover for those with poor reception (similar to Wilson SignalBoost)
MIMO backcover to increase Wi-Fi performance
IR blaster backcover to turn your Jolla into a univeral remote
E-ink display backcover for RSS feeds, notifications, reading books, etc.
Magnetic backcover to easily attach your phone to the fridge
Security backcover with physical encryption PIN (similar to http://worldsbestflashdrive.com/)
Palmprint reader backcover so you can unlock your phone simply by holding it in your palm
Celebrity promo backcovers that automatically inject custom wallpaper, RSS feeds, etc.
99-in-1 memory card reader backcover (you can never support enough formats! ;))
Mirror backcover (you can never look too good ;))
It will be interesting to see how creative accessory makers get with this, but we also have to brace for the classic chicken-or-the-egg problem: in order for accessory makers to jump right in there has to be a market big enough to jump into, but in order to have a big market the phone needs to attract people with very cool backcovers that provide real added functionality (changing colors and ambience may be cool to show off at first, but it doesn't add any real functionality). To give the accessories ecosystem a little boost, I hope Jolla will come out with a killer accessory such as a keyboard backcover to show people what is possible.
ARJWright
2013-05-26, 20:52
Interesting convo... I'm usually one for throwing a few cents in that weren't thought of before (else, why comment), so in addition to the ones already mentioned that I like:
- DVBH
- solar
- attach to car/bike with specific accessory cradle-like item that changes literal mode and UI of Jolla
I'd like to throw this out there
- the other half allows Jolla an abiltiy to separate the side carriers program from the side users/developers play with. But the addition of carrier-specific covers, functionality can be enhanced or reduced. In something of a switch, a carrier defined cover could program the allowance of other SIMs in the Jolla, but not an outright changing of functonality
- sell the tech for back covers only to regions like Japan and SK where seasonal releases of mobiles also have a color/font theme and meet with fashion. Make these exclusive so that other markets would be inticed to do the same for other makes with covers/cases, but none with the same kind of attention to personalization as Jolla can. Can totally see DoCoMo doing this.
- position this alongside QNX as an automtive play, but only for verticals where the addition of mobile into logistics makes sense. Mobile is owned by driver, plugs into truck for trips, comes out and gets plugged into case to have package signed, plug back into truck. Discern analytics, and company can not only guage travel, but has a data bank they can use to improve efficiencies in other areas.
Another thing
- imagine all of those "offices of the future" concepts where folks are putting their mobiles into a dock and then a larger screen and keyboard (UX) are made available (think: Ubuntu Mobile). With "the other half" here we have an abiltiy for a hardware maker (Ikea, Wallmart, etc) to place the pripietory tech into that faciltiy and then turn the Jolla phone into a Jolla environment.
In a very real sense, and not the faster carriages kind that has made a lot of noise in this discussion, Jolla's other half tech is teh ecosystem. And its ability to play off the fact that accessories are where people personalize their device should be something that not only makes Jolla attractive to carriers where their's a rising middle class, but also be a slap in the face to Android which has had the potential for similar for years, but has left it to being nothing more than skins and homescreens.
When Jolla is ready, they will explain the tech. But, they could also pull an Apple and never explain it, making this tech one of many ways they keep themselves funded and attractive to companies that would like a well-done hardware outfit to replace a non-performing one (Microsoft, HTC, Google all come to mind).
onethreealpha
2013-05-26, 21:56
How about something along the lines of Blackberry's Balance feature?
Connecting another half, provides access to a secure/encrypted "other half" of the OS (or at least a sandboxed environment)
or a developer's other half, which sets up preconfigured tools and a sandbox for testing.
This would be a great way for Jolla to sell the product for normal consumers and development too, as it could remove some advanced settings components in the UI that may be inadvertently (or stupidly) activated by users, creating issues.
If you want to develop ON the device, you can opt for the "Developer" half.
Wish this discussion could've been initiated here (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=87764&page=56), but, at least it's got some life about it, so ultimately it doesn't matter so much.
What's with the sub-forum name? "Jolla The Other Half" The Jolla or Jolla is what they're calling their 1st phone, so that's what the sub-forum should be called.
Some great ideas here so far, it'd be great if we could formally present it to them* in a condensed form eventually...
*on behalf of the Maemo/HF community
onethreealpha
2013-05-27, 04:43
Wish this discussion could've been initiated here (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=87764&page=56), but, at least it's got some life about it, so ultimately it doesn't matter so much.
What's with the sub-forum name? "Jolla The Other Half" The Jolla or Jolla is what they're calling their 1st phone, so that's what the sub-forum should be called.
Some great ideas here so far, it'd be great if we could formally present it to them* in a condensed form eventually...
*on behalf of the Maemo/HF community
I've been in touch with Jolla about feedback and channels.
they have no plans right now to establish a forum and are happy with keeping things organic and letting the broader "community" look after things.
Certainly, restructuring TMO to provide dedicated software and hardware sub-forums will better enable anyone who might be checking in ;) to see what is happening.
Posts on Twitter are directing community to this thread to discuss and put forward ideas. Jolla are aware of this.
marcaurell
2013-05-27, 05:52
Personally, I think the "other half" is meaningless and a spasmodic attempt to be different.
I use a N9 and am totally happy with it, of the hardware Jolla I'm disappointed.
I've been in touch with Jolla about feedback and channels.
Same here, many times, responses have been vague at best....
They have no plans right now to establish a forum and are happy with keeping things organic and letting the broader "community" look after things.
That's the thing, they invite us to participate, as though our engagement's very important, yet so far there's been little sign that they're engaged in the whole process at all.
N.B. I'm not referring to this (very recent) initiative of yours, I hope things evolve differently...
Certainly, restructuring TMO to provide dedicated software and hardware sub-forums will better enable anyone who might be checking in ;) to see what is happening.
Agreed, just a short while ago, there was resistance from admins to do what they have in fact recently done.
But I wasn't questioning the basic structure, just the title of the actual sub-forum, it's a bit odd...
Posts on Twitter are directing community to this thread to discuss and put forward ideas. Jolla are aware of this.
If there's zero engagement, then we'll never know if they're actively monitoring, OR doing some internal brainstorming only, & just "paying lip service" to the community input thing.
But to assume the latter & hence do nothing is probably worse, so it's best that we at least do something, infuriating as it may sometimes be.
The only reason I ask if we're eventually going to condense & formally present the info, is because that's what they've typically asked for previously.
That's typically been their requirement before they will consider absorbing the info. & (possibly) engaging to some degree.
So before this thread goes tl;dr, what do you think about making a wiki page from it - discussion still could take place here while the actually essential information (a sorted list of ideas) was easily accessible!?
Kind regards,
Sarah
ATSC receiver 'other-half' for North America and other countries that have deployed the A/153 mobile/handheld DTV standard. :cool:
Perhaps a good opportunity to take the lead in a fairly new and emerging DTV handheld market. :)
Keyboard slider, obviously, with an active stylus for glove weather usage. Pressure sensitive tip. If necessary considering the limitations of the existing first half's screen, the corners of the non-sliding part of the other half could be used for calibration coordinates. Would be low accuracy, but still more accurate than a frozen finger.
So before this thread goes tl;dr, what do you think about making a wiki page from it - discussion still could take place here while the actually essential information (a sorted list of ideas) was easily accessible!?
That's what I'm talking about (well, partly), similar to this (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=87764) thread...
I'll be activating 2 fresh GDocs for that thread soon, as last time, in the Qns/Ideas doc there'll be a hardware sub-section, which is likely to be broken down further into a "the Other Half" section.
Like last time, I'll make it universally accessible for a time, & then eventually lock-it-down to just a few editors, folks are welcome to dump their more condensed input there if they wish?*
As/if we get feedback from Sailfish(Jolla) people, it can be moved to the Maemo wiki, or even moved regardless, LT as Jolla opens up their sites more, it could be moved to a Jolla or Sailfish wiki.
*like last time, it'll probably have to be further condensed & re-organised by some folk willing to help with that
That's what I'm talking about (well, partly), similar to this (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=87764) thread...
I'll be activating 2 fresh GDocs for that thread soon, as last time, in the Qns/Ideas doc there'll be a hardware sub-section, which is likely (...)
Well, I'm all for keeping it here in the wiki since if it's moved to GDocs and back it's like double the work?
ste-phan
2013-05-27, 08:24
This phone is so thin. I don't intend to drag along a bag of 2nd halfs.
For all I am concerned, make it a "two thirds" pack(s) with better camera, HW KB, battery geiger counter, independant router / wifi access point / file sharing box / portable web server., vaccuum cleaner :cool:
FM tx, IR tx/fx .. I need too but there is no excuse not to include it in the 1st half (or primary 3rd part). :rolleyes:
Well, I'm all for keeping it here in the wiki since if it's moved to GDocs and back it's like double the work?
It was heavily discussed & decided (in that thread I linked to) as-to-why we should go with GDocs...
A Wiki (Maemo or ideally the Sailfish/Jolla sites) can be the ultimate target, once everything is much more refined.
Anyway, sorry for derailing this thread, when I have time I'll update the other thread with the new GDocs & place a link here.
TBH, despite the fact that I'm firmly behind Jolla - it definitely appears that at the moment, I get the feeling that concerns and questions I've put forth to them have largely been either ignored or stepped around in emails. Completely agree with jalyst that just a tiny bit of acknowledgement to input and suggestions is all most of us are looking for, even more so here at TMO seeing as most of us here have been largely supportive of their efforts over the years.
Stackable other halves.
I would definitely end up hauling around a brick.
Edit: and camera button
Martinhsl68hw
2013-05-31, 21:05
Stackable other halves.
I would definitely end up hauling around a brick.
The third half? The fourth half?
Wikiwide
2013-06-02, 00:43
One thing that worries me... Apple was dumb for making a proprietary connector that generated an entire market for iphone accessories with that connector.
Without some kind of standard connector, I see the OH resulting in the same thing... a slew of peripheral devices that are only compatible with one phone.
Do we think the second Jolla will have the same OH or will it be like the new Apple connector and completely different?
There needs to be some way to make it generic so people who want to can cut up and hack together their own OH with off-the-shelf components.
I hope that the OtherHalf connection with Jolla phone will be standard-based - like, a variation on USB topic. At the same, the physical shape of the connection between the OtherHalf and the Jolla phone will be so unique and comfortable to use, so aesthetically pleasing and reliable under any conditions, that the copycats will not be able to release any competition in time. With Jolla phones already being pre-ordered at this moment, many of the imitators will beg Jolla to share blueprints of exact shape of Jolla phone, so that they would be able to release compatible OtherHalves and phones. Jolla would be an idiot to not use this opportunity for collecting money from others by granting franchises to select few. Besides, a few high-quality polished OtherHalves being released by other companies at the same time Jolla releases their phone would make for a very loud splash in the mobile computer community.
And yes, a folded-wing solar-charger as OtherHalf could be an interesting idea. But, it should have some alternate useful function at the time when it is folded. And don't forget that a large solar panel should either have a large battery to store the charge, or be directly attached to the phone to charge it. And now I am thinking about ornithopter with large solar-battery wings. SunBat...
What about Sailboat Other Half for Sailfish-powered device? Take part in International Robotic Sailing Regatta (http://sailbot.org/)!
Best wishes.
_________________
Per aspera ad astra...
aironeous
2013-06-02, 02:23
Some more ideas along the lines of recharging
--
Stick your cellphone in this cover/other half and spin it to charge it.
http://youtu.be/aP6ybB2KNI0
Add the flip out keyboard kickstarter project that someone else posted here to this thing and an additional battery or eink display on the back.
Scary I know, but not if the Jolla phone is made of liquidmetal.
Short version (http://youtu.be/rOEBR3DcqN0)
Longer more in depth explanation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-uOPXquIMt4#t=67s)
--
--
Somehow combine that ^ with this
http://www.greennpower.com/ as "other half" but shrink it
--
--
Compatibility and some exclusive other half with
the Scottevest gadget jackets (http://www.scottevest.com/v3_store/subindex_bestsellers.shtml) <-- click on xray mode right side of screen.
--
--
Or maybe you could whip it (http://vimeo.com/64715511) with a hat with a little one of these (http://v3solar.com/) on top and your phone is velcroed inside underneath or maybe the hat can be a 2c hat (http://www.solarlightcap.com/) also
--
--
Some kind of other half with goal zero (http://www.goalzero.com) tech
--
Can I has Jolla shoe (http://www.instepnanopower.com/)
Just this morning had a nice 60km spin with rollerskates, and it came to me what's a badly needed OH functionality: interface to the different HRM belts from various manufacturers!
Some belts, mainly the ones meant to use with a smartphone running SportsTracker use normal BlueTooth or BlueTooth-LowEnergy connection, but the belts meant for integrated wrist-computers use proprietary RF connection. Now wouldn't it be cool to have an other half that could use ALL and ANY HRM's from Polar, Suunto and Garmin.
If that turns out to be too much, maybe suggesting to manufacturers that they make OH's compatible with their belt solution, coming packed with the SW to run on the device.
mikecomputing
2013-06-06, 10:52
Looking at the other half again on jolla's (http://www.jolla.com) redesigned homepage.
Still wonder where the heck manufactor should insert all the stuff that people expect on the other half? Just look at the mainpart its thickness is fatter than other half.
Actually I start beleive it will noit have psysical connections only NFC....
marmistrz
2013-06-06, 10:57
1) camera lens
2) qwerty
3) solar charger
4) fm transmitter? :)
5) second sim
6) camera shutter
7) IR port like for Pierogi
8) Combinations of those (only reasonable ones :) )
Looking at the other half again on jolla's (http://www.jolla.com) redesigned homepage.
Still wonder where the heck manufactor should insert all the stuff that people expect on the other half? Just look at the mainpart its thickness is fatter than other half.
Actually I start beleive it will noit have psysical connections only NFC....
The other half...
http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/jorgophotography/jorgophotography1209/jorgophotography120900059/15316964-smart-male-nerd-inventor-holding-a-state-of-the-art-house-brick-transformed-into-a-mobile-phone-in-a.jpg
The Wall Street Journal had an interesting video WSJ Video (http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2013/06/05/finlands-jolla-phone-aims-to-compete-with-apple-samsung/) which mentioned the other half could have parental controls which would restrict access to certain features of the phone. I find this very useful but it makes me wonder if the other half is programmable so you can determine what features launch/are restricted when used. No one is going to want to have to carry several other halfs everywhere they go just so they can swap if the need arises.
I just stumbled across this review which is something similar to the other half as we discuss it here, only it's designed for use with iphone and not part of the phone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMQBhyYGypw
It's called GoStacked, which is a Kickstarter Project, more information on http://gostacked.com/
Turns out, that it didn't receive enough funding by the deadline.
ARJWright
2013-06-08, 01:55
...No one is going to want to have to carry several other halfs everywhere they go just so they can swap if the need arises.
You are thinking too small, Ok, not small. But, more like only thinking about "faster horses."
Jolla has likely developed a technology, implementation, probably very similar to what we've seen from Nokia with NFC-enabled accessories, that enables them to imprint into accessories an ability to connect with the Jolla and change some of the functionality with it. Per my other comment in this thread: think less "different back covers" and more "a technology that can go into other hardware such as car kits, office accessories, and home automation products (locks, lights, etc.).
The strength in going in with the approach that the back covers can be changed and functionality changes just starts the conversation. Jolla has the advisory board who has seen the failure of other modular computing platforms. With "the other half," the opportunity is in making the ecosystem something in which they are embedding the ability for an accessory to change more than just the outside.
The other half literally means "the other half of mobile that other makers have literally forgotten in this race to put mobiles in hands." Its an approach to mobile that is a concerted look inside the ability of the owner, not just outside at the ability of a service provider or even a developer.
I seriously can't be the only person who figured this out?
Akkumaru
2013-06-08, 01:56
Think of the other half as profilematic. Except the other half doesn't have time limits. So you can change settings, profile, 3G, Wifi, lock some apps, disable features or enable (terminal/developer other half anyone? :D) This certainly can be useful on paper, but will we carry loads of other halfs? I think that's the main concern for me, that the other half will be big, and will take a lot of space. Maybe mouldable/nanotech other half? ;D
I seriously can't be the only person who figured this out?
You don't really want me to take that bet now do you?
Jolla may be thinking along the lines as you in this one case; those are excellent examples of what I'd say people around here would call proper extensibility of the platform as a whole - however it would also mean that developers have already figured out a new, disruptive way to extend the Sailfish/MeeGo platform that doesn't exist anywhere else in the Linux stack for the most part.
Linux is a workhorse. People want it on their servers, desktops and now phones for a reason. But to have it extend to the realm of consumer consumption where it (Jolla or otherwise) intercepts our daily operations is what's missing. Either it's Raspberry Pi (regarded as a great "toy" or tinker item") or it's a web server - which can't play the latest games (Steam withstanding).
I like your vision. Let's hope that Jolla and the devs share it. That would make me jump to Jolla immediately.
ARJWright
2013-06-08, 02:26
You don't really want me to take that bet now do you?
Jolla may be thinking along the lines as you in this one case; those are excellent examples of what I'd say people around here would call proper extensibility of the platform as a whole - however it would also mean that developers have already figured out a new, disruptive way to extend the Sailfish/MeeGo platform that doesn't exist anywhere else in the Linux stack for the most part.
Linux is a workhorse. People want it on their servers, desktops and now phones for a reason. But to have it extend to the realm of consumer consumption where it (Jolla or otherwise) intercepts our daily operations is what's missing. Either it's Raspberry Pi (regarded as a great "toy" or tinker item") or it's a web server - which can't play the latest games (Steam withstanding).
I like your vision. Let's hope that Jolla and the devs share it. That would make me jump to Jolla immediately.
Yes. Take that bet.
That would make lots of folks want to jump to Jolla immediately. That would scare the mess out of folks that haven't figured out that open source can also mean 3D printing circuits into accessories that can and will change a phone to something that works more like a device designed in the 2010s, not 1980s?
which mentioned the other half could have parental controls which would restrict access to certain features of the phone. I find this very useful but it makes me wonder if the other half is programmable so you can determine what features launch/are restricted when used. No one is going to want to have to carry several other halfs everywhere they go just so they can swap if the need arises.
Agreed, if that's all it's about then I'm not the least bit interested, there needs to be true hw extensibility.
If the "Other Half" is purely about being a trigger for sw auto-runs it'll quickly become too impractical, & it'll eventually be superseded by a better implementation in iOS/Android etc.
But I doubt it's purely about that, they can't be that daft...
It appears the Other Half will be starting off being released only by Jolla and not licensed to third parties IB Times UK (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/477925/20130612/jolla-sailfish-second-financing-hands-half-preorders.htm)
What about an eink other half?
http://cdn4.mos.techradar.futurecdn.net//art/other/e-ink_11-580-90.JPG
If that is all about changing wallpapers and adding operator ringtone, I'd say... I actually don't know what I'd say. But let's be honest, the white other half looks stunning.
stickymick
2013-06-12, 22:21
What about the other half having wheels and an engine?
Slot the phone into an NFC enabled rectangular receptacle on a car dash for a multitude of uses. Hands free, Sat-Nav....... Could even do away with the bulky old car audio system.
Wikiwide
2013-06-13, 06:02
The Other Half: waterproof case for the phone, with UHF CB radio and small hardware keyboard. It would be difficult but not impossible. Right now, the radio handheld units are considered separate product, used in extreme situations far away from cities. If OtherHalf-HandheldRadio-Waterproof was done, with an easy way to program certain buttons to make cellular calls, radio calls, send SMS, take photographs, look on a GPS-Map, it could be very popular. Cheap, since the OtherHalf has no programming - only waterproofness, dumb radio and dumb hw-keyboard; all programming is done on Jolla-Phone. Though, a 5W radio could probably use the phone battery quite quickly, so it's better to feed the radio from AA batteries of the OtherHalf or whatever is easy to carry, change and recharge.
Best wishes.
_________________
Per aspera ad astra...
marmistrz
2013-06-15, 18:58
It'd be great to have a hybrid resistive-capacitive screen as an option... :)
peterleinchen
2013-06-15, 20:16
Just to remind you we are still living in a real world, so calm down.
But imagine an ex|phone combined with the Other Half (http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=9-nezImUP0w) :D
(sorry for having only a german version link available, but I think you get the impression ;))
razefox2
2013-06-16, 02:30
maemo, resitive touchscreen, slide qwerty, quad core?
marmistrz
2013-06-16, 08:53
maemo, resitive touchscreen, slide qwerty, quad core?
Maemo - possible, if we get all components (drivers, etc.). It might be easier to port Maemo libs to Sailfish. (Maybe HF would get permission to redist some of it)
Resistive - impossible, 'cause many apps will take advantage of multitouch gestures. A hybrid touchscreen is the only way out.
qwerty - would love it!
quad core - would love it!
Wikiwide
2013-06-18, 12:45
I am curious about idea of hybrid touchscreen. Since most people need not more than six fingers on the same screen, wouldn't installing six resistive touchscreens side-by-side (for example, in a 3x2 grid) be enough for most gestures? Well, for precision - since sometimes the gestures require the fingers to be close to each other - we could have fifteen-sixteen resistive touchscreens in a 3x5 or 6x6 grid.
Yes, screen calibration would be complex as hell with many separate sub-screens. But you could develop a UI similar to a game or something else as entertaining.
What other advantages does capacitive screen have, beside multi-touch? Would this hybrid screen be the best of both worlds?
Best wishes.
marmistrz
2013-06-18, 14:41
I am curious about idea of hybrid touchscreen. Since most people need not more than six fingers on the same screen, wouldn't installing six resistive touchscreens side-by-side (for example, in a 3x2 grid) be enough for most gestures? Well, for precision - since sometimes the gestures require the fingers to be close to each other - we could have fifteen-sixteen resistive touchscreens in a 3x5 or 6x6 grid.
Yes, screen calibration would be complex as hell with many separate sub-screens. But you could develop a UI similar to a game or something else as entertaining.
What other advantages does capacitive screen have, beside multi-touch? Would this hybrid screen be the best of both worlds?
Best wishes.
Capacitive one is more sensitive.
But it has some downsides - you can't use it with gloves, you need a special stylus (a pencil/ballpoint/guitar pick/book won't work for manipulating the stuff).
Beside this, I'd prefer a plastic screen to a glass one - I don't want my phone to have a broken screen after one falldown.
The idea about grid isn't a great idea: imagine clicking the media player play with 16grid...
More info about hybrid one;
http://www.slashgear.com/rim-develop-hybrid-capacitiveresistive-touchscreen-0551295/
Another thought about the grid concept, I believe neonode had something like that patented where it used infrared sensors to detect there the finger was and when it crossed boundaries.
best of both worlds is capacitive with wacom. It even allows hover.
Being super-accurate with wacom pen on glossy glass is a bit harder, and matte glass is not very good for finger swiping but I think a special stylus material with a bit of friction could solve that.
Maemo - possible, if we get all components (drivers, etc.). It might be easier to port Maemo libs to Sailfish. (Maybe HF would get permission to redist some of it)
Resistive - impossible, 'cause many apps will take advantage of multitouch gestures. A hybrid touchscreen is the only way out.
qwerty - would love it!
quad core - would love it!
would we really need to? I mean cordia is pretty close, and am sure its being built on top of the mer core.
CordiaHD has been (mostly) lifeless for well over 1-year now...
Instead of splitting into a million different environments, why not just back Nemo/Sailfish.
If we want it to be more like Freemantle/Hildon we can influence that, we make it what we want.
joerg_rw
2013-06-19, 06:17
The Jolla's concept is revolutional. Imagine: by changing the other half, you switch from private-contacts, and memory with private documents, to business-contacts, and memory with business documents.
You can have as many "other halves" as you wish, enabling ultimate information security. It's like exchanging microSD cards - only much easier to use, since microSD cards can be lost or confused easily.
[...]
Bluetooth uses a lot of power, as any wireless technology.
I expect my PDA/MID/device to support such switching between private and business usage by simple selection of profiles, NOT by having to carry OHs with me. I bet I always forgot the "private OH" at home when I want to call my friends from office to plan the evening. And when in the evening I'm with my friends, I miss the "office OH" to call a colleague about that detail that just occurred to me should get sorted immediately.
Ultimate information security is achieved by proper encryption, not by leaving unencrypted "pluggable storage" at home where any burglar can take it away.
The argument about uSD vs OH is like suggesting to go back to Sony Walkman and Phillips cassette since then you don't need to carry your complete album collection with you and cassette is way less prone to lose than any more contemporary storage medium.
re BT: no, it's actually pretty power humble, it comes with 100, 10 or even 1mW output power, and the most recent standard revisions are really almost for free while just receiving. I kept my BT enabled all the time on my N900, I couldn't detect any adverse effects on standby time.
/j
marmistrz
2013-06-19, 08:03
Jollas concept is nevertheless revolutionary - customizing the device: landscape qwerty, portrait or touchscreen only - its all up to you.
I expect my PDA/MID/device to support such switching between private and business usage by simple selection of profimes, NOT by having to carry OHs with me. I bet I always don't have the "private OH" at home when I want to call my friends from office to plan the evening. And when in the evening I'm with my friends, I miss the "office OH" to call a colleague about that detailthat just occurred to me should get sorted immediately.
Ultimate information security is achieved by proper encryption, not by leaving unencrypted "pluggable storage" at home where any burglar can take it away.
The argument about uSD vs OH is like suggesting to go back to Sony Walkman and Phillips cassette since then you don't need to carry your complete album collection with you and cassette is way less prone to lose than any more contemporary storage medium.
"Nods effusively...."
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1350430#post1350430
If the OH is only about triggering different sw env/profiles, I'll be very disappointed, probably even downright angry.
Jollas concept is nevertheless revolutionary - customizing the device: landscape qwerty...
Except we still don't know if that'll definitely be a option...
And will it be limited to that, or will the interfaces (power/data) will be substantial enough for even more?
So we can't really call it "revolutionary" yet, unfortunately.
NokiaFanatic
2013-06-19, 09:00
Seems to have gone a bit quiet on the hwkb front with regard to substantial news :(
Wikiwide
2013-06-19, 10:16
Finland-based carrier DNA has confirmed it will be the first operator in the world to offer Jolla phones (http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/13/dna-first-to-offer-jolla/)...
Best wishes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolla#The_Other_Half_as_modular_expansion
http://www.crucial.com.au/blog/2013/06/03/jolla-phone-announced-and-it-looks-gorgeous/
My example of otherHalf usage: you insert Jolla phone into a music-system (with large, high-fidelity speakers, et cetera), and Jolla feeds your latest favourite music to the system, while the system charges Jolla's battery. Whether the system is capable of downloading the whole music file from Jolla and continuing playing it afterwards or not, this would still be a good use case. Of course, you already can connect a phone to a music system with an audio cable through phone's jack, and use a separate cable to charge phone at the same time. But just sliding the phone into OtherHalf slot would be quicker and easier, and the cables would not tie around your ankles causing the whole system to fall down.
Or, slide the Jolla phone into OtherHalf slot of drinks-vending machine on a train platform, and Jolla would tell the machine which drink you prefer, ask the price, decide whether you want to buy anything, order it from the machine and pay for it from your credit-card-electronic-wallet-whatever; you would take the Jolla in one hand, drink-or-snack in another hand, and absentmindedly enter the train, not forgetting to mind the gap.
Of course, all of this requires that the music-system-or-snack-vending-machine would present their credentials, Jolla would check them, and somehow trust them. It also requires proper set-up of Jolla's software, so that it wouldn't pay $1000 for a cup of coffee. And proper set-up of your wallet, so that it wouldn't let through fraudulent transactions. Maintaining your privacy will not be easy in interconnected world.
For example, Jolla shouldn't, in fact, tell your preferences to the vending machine; it should query the machine's price-list of all available products, compare it with Jolla's information about your preferences, and give to the machine only the final result - the order itself. Even then, the vending machine should have no information which can be used to trace you, such as credit card number or Jolla's own credentials such as IMEI number or phone number. Now I am getting confused...
CordiaHD has been (mostly) lifeless for well over 1-year now...
Instead of splitting into a million different environments, why not just back Nemo/Sailfish.
If we want it to be more like Freemantle/Hildon we can influence that, we make it what we want.
or we can take cordia whack it on top of mer and make that the new nemo :P i just love the maemo GUI tbh, the sheer freedom of it, and even though Android is fairly similiar it still doesn't feel like a mini computer
To me it makes more sense to influence Nemo's direction, no UX is ever "perfect", they all have their strengths/weaknesses & limitations.
Keep the good bits from Nemo, ditch the bad, bring in some good characteristics from Hildon (& elsewhere), learn/adapt/evolve...
My example of otherHalf usage: you insert Jolla phone into a music-system (with large, high-fidelity speakers, et cetera),
[...]
Or, slide the Jolla phone into OtherHalf slot of drinks-vending machine on a train platform,
[...]
Of course, all of this requires that the music-system-or-snack-vending-machine would present their credentials, Jolla would check them, and somehow trust them.
It would be anything new, if they would implement those features by TOH. Basically it can be achieved by NFC along with some other components I would expect the phone to have without TOH.
1.
Using it with a music player reminds me of the presentation of Nokias Lumia phones. The exact workflow you describe is realised with a combination of Qi-loading, NFC to action the devices music player and BT for audio playback.
2.
Drink vending is being pushed by manufacturers and providers via NFC.
3.
Security and privacy are the most concerns I have about those technologies as they are implemented right now (with NFC and alike).
mikecomputing
2013-06-19, 18:42
or we can take cordia whack it on top of mer and make that the new nemo :P i just love the maemo GUI tbh, the sheer freedom of it, and even though Android is fairly similiar it still doesn't feel like a mini computer
there is a hildon UI branch in lipstick better contribute on that project to share more stuff with harmattan, sailfish and so on. We don't need yet another fork. What we need is cooperation between KDE/Sailfish/Qt with existing code base.
https://plus.google.com/107555540696571114069/posts/Rqz73mpgKJa
"Nods"
https://github.com/nemomobile/lipstick
ARJWright
2013-07-11, 16:29
How much of what Nokia's now announced with the back covers for the 925 and 1020 are close to what Jolla's Other Half is also aiming for. And if Nokia is pivoting towards a similar ideology, does that make the potential for what Jolla can do better or worse for their prospects?
Got to admit, no one in this thread (that I've read) came with the idea of a camera rear like what was just seen with the 1020. That's not a bad idea. Anyone wanna float out what other things are now possible since the imagination has been stroked a bit more?
youmeego
2013-07-11, 16:47
i need that 1020 camera as jolla the other half
mikecomputing
2013-07-11, 17:43
How much of what Nokia's now announced with the back covers for the 925 and 1020 are close to what Jolla's Other Half is also aiming for. And if Nokia is pivoting towards a similar ideology, does that make the potential for what Jolla can do better or worse for their prospects?
Got to admit, no one in this thread (that I've read) came with the idea of a camera rear like what was just seen with the 1020. That's not a bad idea. Anyone wanna float out what other things are now possible since the imagination has been stroked a bit more?
I know there was some discussion about camera backcover even Dillon talked bout it. BUT there is no way they can compete with Nokias camera phones. They have no way near of that R&D resources. We should be glad if the internal camera sensor can compete with N9 :/ My guess is the camera is some China crap sensor not even Carl Zeiss.
NokiaFanatic
2013-07-11, 20:31
Looking at the camera tech unveiled for the Lumia 1020 makes me cry a little. That device should be running Meego :(
It would be nice if one could use different standarts with the "other half" : gsm, american mobile, lte, wimax, satelite phone etc. :cool:
youmeego
2013-07-13, 16:06
somebody please fix that Lumia 1020 press image replacing with Sailfish homescreen
slaapliedje
2013-07-13, 16:52
somebody please fix that Lumia 1020 press image replacing with Sailfish homescreen
Agreed! That phone should be running MeeGo or SailfishOS. *grumble*
slaapliedje
mikecomputing
2013-07-13, 18:19
just wonder what nokia has on pipe on NWC 2013 a cameraphone runing sailfishos?
ohh I forgot nokia managment is not smart... So forget what I just wrote :mad:
just wonder what nokia has on pipe on NWC 2013 a cameraphone runing sailfishos?
Phablet running WP8 GDR3, bringing 1080p screen and quad core. Camera with PureView or lytro type camera thanks to Pelican investments.
Sailfish Nokia phone wont happen before Nokia is on a solid ground. Investors at this point wont accept Nokia to start pouring money to something like Sailfish, Android might be a different story.
Hi all
It seems "obvious" to me there should be a DUAL SIM option with the other half.
1- Not everyone wants this, but it's great for people who want a phone for personal and business, so it makes sense to have it as a add-on feature. Plus.. you can always leave that half at home when on holiday !
2- Some markets can only be addressed if you have dual sim, and these are huge markets : INDIA, CHINA, and even if smartphones might be to some extent too expensive, Africa and the middle east.
To be great, this other half should be able to snap in a extra SIM card, maybe extra battery life and stay compact.
Some people have already manufactured ipod touch cases which include one or even two sims.
So it's really doable and there is a huge market for this (again, some businness men + big countries such as india and china)
Hope this message finds the right people !
mikecomputing
2013-07-14, 10:34
Dual sim you people have realise that this means even more connnectors on other half? I doubt you will see that coming.
joerg_rw
2013-07-14, 13:10
Hi all
It seems "obvious" to me there should be a DUAL SIM option with the other half.
1- Not everyone wants this, but it's great for people who want a phone for personal and business, so it makes sense to have it as a add-on feature. Plus.. you can always leave that half at home when on holiday !
2- Some markets can only be addressed if you have dual sim, and these are huge markets : INDIA, CHINA, and even if smartphones might be to some extent too expensive, Africa and the middle east.
To be great, this other half should be able to snap in a extra SIM card, maybe extra battery life and stay compact.
Some people have already manufactured ipod touch cases which include one or even two sims.
So it's really doable and there is a huge market for this (again, some businness men + big countries such as india and china)
Hope this message finds the right people !
From an EE perspective I don't see how that can be done, at least without dedicated pins from cellmodem to OH, or with massive tweaks to the cmt firmware to talk to SIM via proxy on AP. [edit] AFAIK even Nokia discontinued their own cell modem branch, and I highly doubt Jolla has the manpower to develop and certify their own modem chip and FW, and they don't have the marketshare/volume to talk modem manufacturers into granting them access to cmt FW on a "do tweaks to it as you like" level.
Well, there's a SIM remote access thing that might or might not be supported by the modem Jolla used on their phone. If such thing is available, it could get exploited.
That's exactly the problem with this OH concept: you can't do everything via a "USB" 4 pin connector.
/j
youmeego
2013-07-14, 15:50
Jolla can save some cost and earn more money by removing the back camera, some people(like male teenagers serving national service in singapore) need that kind of non-camera smart phone in a certain workplace and army camp
Jolla can save some cost and earn more money by removing the back camera, some people(like male teenagers serving national service in singapore) need that kind of non-camera smart phone in a certain workplace and army camp
The camera is pretty bad so I'm sure its allowed ;)
It's probably already decided that the other half will be a kind of backcover but if it was my decision, I would really split the phone in half, and put the camera and battery in the back. This would allow more upgradeability and really different configurations for different usecases. Want a cheap slim phone? Buy it with a 5mpix shooter and a small battery. Want a camera; get the 12mp protruding back with tripod mount. Back cover may also hold extra emmc.
It has it's drawbacks that backcovers won't be cheap, so getting more of them just to change colors won't be easy, but we have cases for that
That makes so much sense it should be Tweeted directly to them...
Not that it really matters now, it's pretty clear it's going to be some kind of back-cover, but perhaps for the next ph it can be a consideration, if there is a next one.
joerg_rw
2013-07-14, 20:09
[...]Back cover may also hold extra emmc.
t
And EXTRA-BUTTONS, a lot of them. Operating a camera via touchscreen exclusively is a PITA
/j
And EXTRA-BUTTONS, a lot of them. Operating a camera via touchscreen exclusively is a PITA
/j
yeah, THAT!
It's probably already decided that the other half will be a kind of backcover but if it was my decision, I would really split the phone in half, and put the camera and battery in the back. This would allow more upgradeability and really different configurations for different usecases. Want a cheap slim phone? Buy it with a 5mpix shooter and a small battery. Want a camera; get the 12mp protruding back with tripod mount. Back cover may also hold extra emmc.
It has it's drawbacks that backcovers won't be cheap, so getting more of them just to change colors won't be easy, but we have cases for that
Problem is that manufacturing wise that kind of modularity is pretty much as expensive as it can get. Something Jolla has no luxury of. Hell, just offering more than 2 colors seems to be too expensive for these big manufacturers.
Neither can anybody expect any 3rd party to make big investments to provide improved camera on a "other half".
Sure maybe (?) it could be engineering wise possible to actually put the phone in half, but it would be quite of risk to leave it with really crappy hardware and expect there to be better parts in the future.
That said, I would be all for cut the phone in half if it was possible as i'am quite concerned that the current "second half" to flop quite badly.
Fuzzillogic
2013-07-14, 21:47
They said the specs of the other half will be open. 3D printable even. Perhaps they count on third parties to design and sell other halves. Which would in turn promote (the) Jolla for them, for free.
If the Jolla sells well enough in Asia, there will be numerous parties blasting out other halves.
From an EE perspective I don't see how that can be done, at least without dedicated pins from cellmodem to OH, or with massive tweaks to the cmt firmware to talk to SIM via proxy on AP. [edit] AFAIK even Nokia discontinued their own cell modem branch, and I highly doubt Jolla has the manpower to develop and certify their own modem chip and FW, and they don't have the marketshare/volume to talk modem manufacturers into granting them access to cmt FW on a "do tweaks to it as you like" level.
Well, there's a SIM remote access thing that might or might not be supported by the modem Jolla used on their phone. If such thing is available, it could get exploited.
That's exactly the problem with this OH concept: you can't do everything via a "USB" 4 pin connector.
/j
Samsung is coming with dual SIM, one for voice / GSM and whatever the operator supports, and WiMAX - when they provide coverage. You will soon find phones that run both CDMA for Verizon and GSM for AT&T in the US, but the Chinese has their own S-WCDMA that they support. It is just software now and two separate "ways" makes it easier to write the code, the radio interface definition is located on the SIM.
Drop it, and use this instead: Detachable bluetooth keyboard with 1800mAh battery.. Use A2DP profile, contains HID. If you need a keybord only, this comes at $15, th rest is for the battery.
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-HK-SG-Post-Air-Mail-Shipping-Sliding-wireless-bluetooth-keyboard-With-1800mAh-Portable-Power-battery/719474607.html
That's exactly the problem with this OH concept: you can't do everything via a "USB" 4 pin connector.
/j
IIRC, the Huawei USB aircards (Qualcomm 8200) can do GSM voice calls.
Two of those, and you get dual-SIM dual-standby.
ARJWright
2013-07-15, 00:11
I'd like to see a backcover for SailfishOS pull this off:
http://research.nokia.com/news/12133 - Nokia GEM Concept
wrap around screen, context aware, yea...
If they could pull that off, even as a limited tech exercise, that would be something kind of neat.
joerg_rw
2013-07-15, 01:04
IIRC, the Huawei USB aircards (Qualcomm 8200) can do GSM voice calls.
Two of those, and you get dual-SIM dual-standby.
Yeah, or another complete phone, like in that case for iPhone.
/j
Would it be possible to build a otherhalf with a stong magnet so it could connect to stuff?
mikecomputing
2013-07-21, 14:39
They said the specs of the other half will be open. 3D printable even. Perhaps they count on third parties to design and sell other halves. Which would in turn promote (the) Jolla for them, for free.
If the Jolla sells well enough in Asia, there will be numerous parties blasting out other halves.
other half us sooo overmarketed people already expect to much I am not even sure it has phycontacts just LOOK at the proto shown its only a bit of plastic but people her still thinks it has possibility for dualaim camera etc...
be realistic! Jolla is an upstart not comparable with samsun, nokia etc...
Would it be possible to build a otherhalf with a stong magnet so it could connect to stuff?
That's a great idea.
Don't need a strong magnet, something like the one on the Surface RT/PRO devices are good enough for mobile.
Just make 2 (waterproof) entry pins on the top corner, and on the opposite bottom corner of the backplate.
Something with a USB interface to pretty much handle all the Plug 'N Play features and charging capabilities of TheOtherHalf... that's the sweet point.
PS Don't spend time on the bs that is NFC and wireless charging, its a gimmick at best.
It's funny how people are wildly dreaming about what could happen...
Instead of listening to how things have evolved in recent wks (i.e. how Jolla's described TOH in latest articles etc) & resetting their expectations.
Here's my concept of what "Other Half" should be / ideas:
- The phone's battery slides out from the top of the device, and secures nicely
- The phone has a small 200mAh non-removable internal battery used when changing batteries/Halves
- The phone's battery could be fused to OtherHalves to shave off thickness (where it makes sense)
- The backside of the phone has two oppositely placed areas for contact between the Half and the phone.
- "The Contact" should be a relatively flat, secure attachment, magnet aided, using USB interface.
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8218/jollanotherow.bmp
Other Halves:
- Extended battery (1,800mAh, 2,500mAh)
- THICK Extended battery (3,500mAh+)
- Thin, light qwerty (azerty, etc etc and variants) (http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/4113/3designp3ultimate.png)
- Thick, heavier qwerty (includes an extended battery)
- Programmable Keyboard / one used for commands and coding
- Gamepad (Quad-Shoulder oads. Nub with three action buttons, mirror imaged for both thumbs)
- Gametroller (Contoured PS-style controller with slot for the phone) (http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/6572/controllerp.png)
- Touchscreen (No actual screen/images. On the back for some PS Vita / Motorola Backflip style use cases)
- Second Screen (Second Touchscreen useful for eBooks if low power).
- Tactical backplate (NFC, Infrared, etc etc)
- Metal Kickstand (which also acts and amplifies the strength of Cell-Radio Signals)
- Loud(er)speakers
- Camera blackplate (Slot for lens attachment. Friendly Two-Step Shutter button. Gripper)
- Additional storage (For media/files only... not for executable Apps)
- Dual SIM card attachment
- Pico Projector
- Backplates (with glowing lights a la Macbook Apple logo)
- Backplates (Colours. Limited Editions: Clear, Matte, Kevlar, CarbonFibre, Gel, Glow'Dark, EtchaSketch, Metallic, Gold, Swarovski etc etc)
- Wallet attached backplate
- Screen flap protector backplates
- Post it Note dispenser!!!!!!!!!!1!!!!!
- Wearables (Wrist/gauntlet, Arm holders, Headband, Batman utility belt, Bum Bag, Bike Mount)
- Other accessories could be mobile/unattached (ie Bluetooth speakers)
- Or they can be connected via a case (eg Phone protector + Stylus holder)
- Or connected via the Headset jack*** / microUSB ports.
...the list is comprehensive! Can't think of anything else, if I do I'll add it here. I think my ideas are practical, and really bring out the best possibilities for the concept.
Physical Properties (most ideal):
- 5.2 inch screen slab,
- Shaved-bezels,
- A clean buttonless front.
- Both ports on the bottom side
- Only 4 physical buttons all located on the right side
.....something close to the resemblance of THIS old concept. (http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/1540/note2c.jpg)
Symmetrical Design:
- Front stereo loudspeakers (switch L and R roles)
- Top/bottom symmetrical mics (switch between Master and Noise cancelling mic)
- Function physical buttons (Vol+/- Power Camera******) switch roles when orientation changes between 0/180'.
.......Turn the phone upside down and it works as normal !!!!
A User Interface / Experience:
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/8759/gestures.png
Combining all these ideas (Phone Physical Properties, Symmetry, User Xperience, TheOtherHalf)... just imagine how revolutionary that would be!!
FEEDBACK ANYONE ?!?!
-----------------------------------------------------
*****Physical button may not be dedicated for Camera only, the user can select any Task to launch from it.
***Headset jack should be highest quality possible but with 2.5mm jack. Its a widely accepted standard, not as much as 3.5mm but they're compatible. It saves space in a compact device like phones. We should make the switch just like how miniUSB made the switch to microUSB. I dunno, just a rant.
I think that it's just a gimmick.
Anything thicker than few mm will obstruct view filed of the camera. And honestly, of all those ideas so far the only thing I find useful is a bigger battery but that also depends of the thicknes of the device as it is. HWK should be at least 6-7 mm thick to be comfortable to hold and what about the hole for the camera. Do we want a keyboard with a hole?
I don't expect anything from TOH and I realy don't care about it.
mikecomputing
2013-07-28, 21:44
hell people in this thread will be soooo angry when realize theyr expections will be sooooo ruined when phone released...
If it's got the batman belt I'm sold.
In yellow of course
I want a "post-it strip dispenser" other half! ...uh, you say it's unlike? exactly!
Jedibeeftrix
2013-08-02, 10:09
i am not massively bothered by "The Other Half" concept, but it is at least validated by the amount of effort Motorola went to to provide customisation for their new MotoX.
...but it is at least validated by the amount of effort Motorola went to to provide customisation for their new MotoX.
Is it about real hw augmentation, or just superficial customisation?
Which we think is what Jolla's heading for, sadly, but -somewhat- understandably.
Although after watching this, it seems that real hw augmentation may still be on the agenda for the first Jolla Phone.
Tis just that Jolla won't be focusing on hw "Other Halves", they'll leave that to others. Watch from 11min 15sec onwards:
http://kde-app.mirror.uber.com.au/akademy/2013/videos/Vesa-Matti_-_Qt,_Open_Source_and_Sailfish_OS.webm
So (frustratingly) confused now...*
*original source here....
http://files.kde.org/akademy/2013/videos/
Is it about real hw augmentation, or just superficial customisation?
Which we think is what Jolla's heading for, sadly, but -somewhat- understandably.
Although after watching this, it seems that real hw augmentation may still be on the agenda for the first Jolla Phone.
Tis just that Jolla won't be focusing on hw "Other Halves", they'll leave that to others.
Well, as was already reported here, CTO Mosconi said in a recent interview to Jolla Italia, talking about TOH that "In fact it will allow hardware upgrade without a need to purchase a new device."
Considering that Jolla has been quite vague about most of the specs, that's quite a bold statement, so I don't think TOH will be only good to make funky covers, but agree with what you say that they will just provide the capability and wait for 3rd parties to develop something with it.
robthebold
2013-08-02, 18:33
Does a hardware upgrade TOH need to be electronic hardware? Why not something with physical function?
I'm thinking TOH could be one of those indexed pillboxes. Attach it and your phone knows to activate the meds-reminder app. This would be a killer combo for seniors.
For younger, ironic hipster-types: a cigarette case! Those haven't been popular in years. Or how 'bout a flask?
Lastly, for fans of cliche, the bulletproof other half. Because when you're carrying a smartphone, you don't need to carry a separate pocket watch or bible. You're gonna need something else to protect a small portion of your body from the projectile with your name on it.
Just some ideas for wider appeal.
mikecomputing
2013-08-02, 19:07
Well, as was already reported here, CTO Mosconi said in a recent interview to Jolla Italia, talking about TOH that "In fact it will allow hardware upgrade without a need to purchase a new device."
Considering that Jolla has been quite vague about most of the specs, that's quite a bold statement, so I don't think TOH will be only good to make funky covers, but agree with what you say that they will just provide the capability and wait for 3rd parties to develop something with it.
I want that confirmed from jolla! Not from some halfbaked google translation! Because there are other stuff that also he said that people here now has mistraslated or has not read correct.
I want that confirmed from jolla! Not from some halfbaked google translation! Because there are other stuff that also he said that people here now has mistraslated or has not read correct.
I'm very sorry if you'd need to wait for that confirmation. I just read the original interview and translated the sentence I quoted by myself, so I didn't need google to bake anything about it :p
Well, as was already reported here, CTO Mosconi said in a recent interview to Jolla Italia, talking about TOH that "In fact it will allow hardware upgrade without a need to purchase a new device."
Considering that Jolla has been quite vague about most of the specs, that's quite a bold statement, so I don't think TOH will be only good to make funky covers, but agree with what you say that they will just provide the capability and wait for 3rd parties to develop something with it.
Yeah, I think you're referring to this interview:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1362668#post1362668
I commented on it in that thread...
I was surprised to see them hint at real hw augmentation once again.
They hadn't talked about it in prior interviews for ages.
I want that confirmed from jolla! Not from some halfbaked google translation!
Because there are other stuff that also he said that people here now has mistraslated or has not read correct.
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1364470#post1364470
From available info (translated and otherwise), my guess is the TOH will be:
1. at launch will be nothing more than fancy rainbow coloured covers.
2. able to be expanded in many ways later on (depending on 3rd parties as well as "maybe" Jolla themselves)
3. confusing everybody and causing Internet arguments until launch date
Now, my thoughts above IMO are the most logical, cost effective, and probable from the info that we've seen so far. Unfortunately, the bit about 3rd party TOH is a worry for me; it's highly unlikely that any 3rd party will produce anything with a reasonable economy of scale because... well... I don't think Jolla is going to be shipping 50M Jolla devices per year. So, if there are 3rd party TOH, they'll most probably be at a premium (or be less widely available than Jolla was when pre-order opened). Which leaves TOH from Jolla themselves... but I just woke up and my brain stopped working at this point, so I have no thoughts on that.
After reading this
http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/561463/f87b1f2fbb11c442/
and especially "The covers have both data and power connections, so they could serve other purposes as well. Additional battery power or a hardware keyboard are two that were mentioned. The protocols and pinout information will be available, so the hope is that other companies come up with their own innovative ideas. "
I then had another look on the Akademy/Vesa-Matti video and from 10:45 talks about intelligent covers. The example of having party profiles linked to the back cover are funny considering the range of possibilites.
http://ftp.icm.edu.pl/packages/kde-applicationdata/akademy/2013/videos/Vesa-Matti_-_Qt,_Open_Source_and_Sailfish_OS.webm
I dont think anyone has mentioned noticing this bit of info.
After reading this
http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/561463/f87b1f2fbb11c442/
and especially "The covers have both data and power connections, so they could serve other purposes as well. Additional battery power or a hardware keyboard are two that were mentioned. The protocols and pinout information will be available, so the hope is that other companies come up with their own innovative ideas. "
I then had another look on the Akademy/Vesa-Matti video and from 10:45 talks about intelligent covers. The example of having party profiles linked to the back cover are funny considering the range of possibilites.
http://ftp.icm.edu.pl/packages/kde-applicationdata/akademy/2013/videos/Vesa-Matti_-_Qt,_Open_Source_and_Sailfish_OS.webm
I dont think anyone has mentioned noticing this bit of info.
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1364470#post1364470
mikecomputing
2013-08-08, 21:41
I then had another look on the Akademy/Vesa-Matti video and from 10:45 talks about intelligent covers. The example of having party profiles linked to the back cover are funny considering the range of possibilites.
http://ftp.icm.edu.pl/packages/kde-applicationdata/akademy/2013/videos/Vesa-Matti_-_Qt,_Open_Source_and_Sailfish_OS.webm
I dont think anyone has mentioned noticing this bit of info.
you dont need a USB connector and similar to do that. Still I want fully confirm what kind of connector if exists.
Second time I see the video and just noticed a lot more intresting thing he said. "We want to make Qt5+Wayland fast as hell on ARM platforms" thats good sounds to me that SoC is not crappy Intel then :D
You will see, next Intel SoC will wipe the floor with ARM.
You will see, next Intel SoC will wipe the floor with ARM.
I really hope so. And Intel should me more supportive of Wayland drivers.
wonder if someone could manage to do a small and stylish TOH wallet, with space for a few cards and just the odd paper bill or coin. it doesn't have to be *just* a wallet, could be a combined wallet and battery/keyboard/whatnot. don't mind the extra bulk if it means i can let go of my mini wallet.
I would like to have level tool so I know if something is correct.
mikecomputing
2013-08-12, 20:26
wonder if someone could manage to do a small and stylish TOH wallet, with space for a few cards and just the odd paper bill or coin. it doesn't have to be *just* a wallet, could be a combined wallet and battery/keyboard/whatnot. don't mind the extra bulk if it means i can let go of my mini wallet.
Like that idea ALOT
mikecomputing
2013-08-12, 20:27
You will see, next Intel SoC will wipe the floor with ARM.
no way. Its just marketing bullish. X86 is broken old beast that deserve to die.
no way. Its just marketing bullish. X86 is broken old beast that deserve to die.
There is only 5 years in difference between x86 (1978) and ARM (1983). Do you have anything more substantial than pure x86 bashing? Sure ARM has great designs for low power, but Intel is a giant and they just started to conquer back the market.
Intel is taking mobile serious since it's last generation of mobile ATOM CPU's, which was codenamed Medfield. They were already on par of performance and used less energy in most situations compared to it'S ARM counterparts. While Medfield was technically competetive, it was behind in production process which was only at 32nm (although LP). Samsung, Qualcomm, Apple and co. were already producing ARM CPU's at 28nm at that time. Anandtech has a good review of Medfield. http://www.anandtech.com/show/5365/intels-medfield-atom-z2460-arrive-for-smartphones
Now with next generation Intel is for the first time favoring the mobile ATOM platforms in process technology. Silvermont will be produced in 22nm with tri-gate transistors, which is way ahead of every other manfacturer out there. Intel is taking it very serious this time.
Again Anandtech has a very detailed article about it: http://www.anandtech.com/show/6936/intels-silvermont-architecture-revealed-getting-serious-about-mobile
Fuzzillogic
2013-08-12, 21:26
Also, the x86-part of current day x86-CPUs is little more than opcode-decoder, which translates them into micro-ops which are rather RISC-like. x86 is therefor akin a high level standardized language for the outside world.
But for us Linux-users the actual CPU arch is of less importance, as much of the stuff is open source which can be compiled with relative ease for other platforms. Heck, just run EasyDebian on your N9(00) to see all your favorite desktop applications running on an ARM.
What would stop Jolla from choosing x86 at this point? They can simply recompile their own stuff. So can most developers. Changing arch after release is much more cumbersome, as there is no JavaVM is rather platform agnostic, and JIT-compiling ARM-code to x86 is not all that efficient - although that is what Intel is doing now on Android.
But it's far from impossible. Apple did it before.
Jedibeeftrix
2013-08-13, 13:03
There is only 5 years in difference between x86 (1978) and ARM (1983). Do you have anything more substantial than pure x86 bashing? Sure ARM has great designs for low power, but Intel is a giant and they just started to conquer back the market.
Intel is taking mobile serious since it's last generation of mobile ATOM CPU's, which was codenamed Medfield. They were already on par of performance and used less energy in most situations compared to it'S ARM counterparts. While Medfield was technically competetive, it was behind in production process which was only at 32nm (although LP). Samsung, Qualcomm, Apple and co. were already producing ARM CPU's at 28nm at that time. Anandtech has a good review of Medfield. http://www.anandtech.com/show/5365/intels-medfield-atom-z2460-arrive-for-smartphones
Now with next generation Intel is for the first time favoring the mobile ATOM platforms in process technology. Silvermont will be produced in 22nm with tri-gate transistors, which is way ahead of every other manfacturer out there. Intel is taking it very serious this time.
Again Anandtech has a very detailed article about it: http://www.anandtech.com/show/6936/intels-silvermont-architecture-revealed-getting-serious-about-mobile
the best that we can say is that with Silvermont Intel will no longer be a crap mobile solution, and will at least be competitive.
arm chips are small and relatively uncomplicated which means they will be among the lead devices to run with 20nm fabrication from TSMC et-al.
we might see the first 20nm ARM A57/A53 SoC's in H1 2014, which is at most only three months after Intel Merrifield is due to arrive.
mikecomputing
2013-08-14, 18:50
There is only 5 years in difference between x86 (1978) and ARM (1983). Do you have anything more substantial than pure x86 bashing? Sure ARM has great designs for low power, but Intel is a giant and they just started to conquer back the market.
Intel is taking mobile serious since it's last generation of mobile ATOM CPU's, which was codenamed Medfield. They were already on par of performance and used less energy in most situations compared to it'S ARM counterparts. While Medfield was technically competetive, it was behind in production process which was only at 32nm (although LP). Samsung, Qualcomm, Apple and co. were already producing ARM CPU's at 28nm at that time. Anandtech has a good review of Medfield. http://www.anandtech.com/show/5365/intels-medfield-atom-z2460-arrive-for-smartphones
Now with next generation Intel is for the first time favoring the mobile ATOM platforms in process technology. Silvermont will be produced in 22nm with tri-gate transistors, which is way ahead of every other manfacturer out there. Intel is taking it very serious this time.
Again Anandtech has a very detailed article about it: http://www.anandtech.com/show/6936/intels-silvermont-architecture-revealed-getting-serious-about-mobile
Again X86 is broken on embedded. You can try as much as you want with marketing bullish but you will never convince me its better than ARM platform on embedded.
I really hope ARM or MIPS can replace my X86 laptop too in some years.
Fuzzillogic
2013-08-14, 19:29
I'm quite CPU-agnostic (running Intel on desktop, AMD on nettop), using Linux all around, so really, I'm mostly interested in raw power (desktop) and energy efficiency (mobile). But even though ARM's CortexA15 core seem to pack quite a punch, it isn't in Intel's ballpark yet on top performance, but it is substantially more power hungry than the A9/A7. Frankenstein-solutions like littleBIG are needed to keep it within limits.
It's good to have some competition though. Compared to comparably priced CPU's today, my 2 year old desktop i7 CPU is just about 10% slower. And I think that's in part due to the lack of true competition on the desktop. In the mean time, mobile speeds have soared.
10% slower in what sense? In terms of pure MHz/GHz, I'd agree... but then again, CPU speed seems to have plateaued and manufacturers instead appear to be focusing on improving sideways (cores). Is it down to lack of competition? I think that's a bit "unfair" since the big two (AMD/Intel) have pretty much always been there and despite the lack of "competition", speeds have always improved at a pretty steady pace (at least up until recent times). Would the continued existence of folks like IBM, Cyrix, etc. in the CPU market be better for consumers and CPU speed in general? I'm not really convinced.
My 2 cents :)
The long awaited disc phone is here. Unfortunately, jolla isn't behind it. Would be nice with a clock as other-side with flexible screen.
http://www.sammobile.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/samsung-watch-front-screen.png
Fuzzillogic
2013-08-15, 17:54
Well I was wrong. It's less than 10%. I paid €235 for an i7 2600 over two years ago. Now you get an 2600K or Xeon-version of the same CPU for that price. In fact, the only thing in this (then new) pc that's significantly slower compared to current versions is the Radeon 6850 GPU.
There's something else too: I've no clue why I would want a twice as fast PC right now. I don't game often, and many other intensive tasks are better handled by GPGPU's anyway these days. There's little which would benefit from the extra speed.
I wonder if we're getting to the same point on mobile: cpu's simply being fast enough for everything the software throws at them. They are even powerful enough for a decent desktop. So, to get back on topic, I think Jolla is doing a clever thing by using a fast enough CPU, and instead focus on something new.
Now that we know the hardware connection for The Other Half, there are many types of "other halves" that can be created. FM Transmitter, TV Receiver, Keyboard, LED/LCD, etc. I can't wait to see what APIs will be available to link TOH to the Jolla phone.
Many might be disappointed they waited until this long to reveal this but if they hadn't some other device manufacturer with more money and more engineers could get together and implement the same thing, get it to market sooner and then Jolla would look like the copycats.
For those who don't mind thick phones I can see multipurpose TOH that will be able to do amazing things.
joerg_rw
2013-09-19, 21:08
who knows what? I didn't see anything new
who knows what? I didn't see anything new
In the Finnish version of the specs it indicates that it will be using I2C interface.
who knows what? I didn't see anything new
i think the finnish page said something about that...l2C
LED/LCD, etc.
Surely you don't mean a display "Other Half"?
Surely you don't mean a display "Other Half"?
Yes, I am thinking about an e-ink type display on the OH.
The bandwidth of i2c is pretty neat even for some decent framerate for an animated grayscale image, not to mention the obvious uses for a static image that you can load up there without it ever consuming even uW of power to maintain :D
So, you're referring to the latest/greatest eInk display tech I assume...*
You think it has sufficient bandwidth & other attributes to accommodate such tech?
*not some second grade offering
So, you're referring to the latest/greatest eInk display tech I assume...*
You think it has sufficient bandwidth & other attributes to accommodate such tech?
*not some second grade offering
Please elaborate what you have on mind?
What do you consider first grade and what second grade?
jalyst, do the math.
3Mb will be enough bandwidth for even some descent frame-rate.... Which would defeat the purpose of low power screen anyway
joerg_rw
2013-09-20, 07:12
3Mb? Dang, that's a quite fast I2C, particularly via a B2B-connector or whatever they use. Where from you got that 3Mb figure?
And 3Mbps/8 = 375kBps (w/o overhead for protocol) if my math isn't weak. Doesn't sound like a too decent framerate to me (like 1fps on a 8bit grayscale 800*480), but then... e-ink probably has low res and low bpp, so even 8fps b&w, or awesome 32fps on a 400*240 b&w
3Mb? Dang, that's a quite fast I2C, particularly via a B2B-connector or whatever they use. Where from you got that 3Mb figure?
And 3Mbps/8 = 375kBps (w/o overhead for protocol) if my math isn't weak. Doesn't sound like a too decent framerate to me (like 1fps on a 8bit grayscale 800*480), but then... e-ink probably has low res and low bpp
Yes, I mean hey you are not going to play action games on it wot??
By decent framerate I mean something better than 2Hz :D
Please elaborate what you have on mind?
What do you consider first grade and what second grade?
I'm not up-to-speed on what are currently considered the best IQ/performing eInk displays.
But for augments sake, lets assume the tech used by Amazon's latest eReader is currently "best of kind".
And lets assume it not proprietary, & hence usable for a 3rd-party Other Half OEM:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Kindle#Sixth_generation
Yes, that's close to ideal case.
Anyway, let's not extrapolate... Time will tell :)
I'm not up-to-speed on what are currently considered the best IQ/performing eInk displays.
But for augments sake, lets assume the tech used by Amazon's latest eReader is currently "best of kind".
And lets assume it not proprietary, & hence usable for a 3rd-party Other Half OEM:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Kindle#Sixth_generation
Okay, so the neatest Kindle has 6" dispaly with (758×1024) 16-level-grayscale pixels.
Now, assuming that the size of the OH display would be same as the one on the front side, that means with the same pixel density we get about 42% of the total pixels, that is about 326kpix.
For 16 grayscale levels we need 4bits/pixel, so it totals to about 1.3M raster clock. This is for full update of the display. If you really want to run live video on it (which is quite pointless on e-ink anyway) with any decent motion-compression scheme the required bandwidth is sufficent.
Thanks for doing the math I was too lazy to do....
So, it does indeed sound like a eInk display of the same calibre as Kindle's latest/greatest is feasible.
I'm not sure if Kindle's latest offering is in fact the best eInk tech out there...
But assuming bandwidth requirements would be quite similar for the best offering.
It seems we could (theoretically) have a "world's best" eInk display available as a "Other Half".
This could be quite the marketing coup, if done well....
Personally I prefer my eReader to be a discrete device & about 7", but I'm sure others would like this approach.
too lazy to read the entire thread (at the risk of getting flamed :P)
1. some kick-*** awesome speakers with a kick stand
2. a proper second screen (flip it out and it would combine with the main screen to form a device with a big screen?)
3. an irda module (for a universal remote control)
4. larger capacity battery that also packs an extra micro-sd slot and a dual-sim slot??
5. a wifi booster with antenna (so your device can become a super duper hot spot? :P)
6. a transparent lcd (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afI3MG65Z7Q) so you can for example flip it out and put your jolla on the table as an alarm clock!
*runs away and hides* :)
joerg_rw
2013-09-20, 14:27
1: no audio, latency of I2C too high, no realtime
2; not feasible, see above 10 posts
3: works
4: depends, I2C doesn't support battery. needs power pins. uSD sloooow on i2c. dual-sim next to impossible.
5: impossible as plain booster (no antenna pin), sloooow as additional pimped WiFi chip, since again i2c bandwidth. See above posts: bw=300kB/s, while WiFi needs 5MB/s
6: see 2.
/j
joerg_rw
2013-09-20, 14:31
Thanks for doing the math I was too lazy to do....
again: where from comes that 3Mb/s figure? IIRC standard I2C has 400k, not 3M
/j
4: depends, I2C doesn't support battery. needs power pins. uSD
IIRC, the Other Half specification listed on the finish preorder page lists power pins as being available. :)
ggabriel
2013-09-20, 14:59
again: where from comes that 3Mb/s figure? IIRC standard I2C has 400k, not 3M
/j
fwiw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I2c
Recent revisions of I²C can host more nodes and run at faster speeds (400 kbit/s Fast mode, 1 Mbit/s Fast mode plus or Fm+, and 3.4 Mbit/s High Speed mode).
You have to believe wikipedia. I guess 3.4Mb/s for uFM.
So what is possible? Anything fun at all?
Fuzzillogic
2013-09-20, 16:02
So what is possible? Anything fun at all?
Of course. Many sensors use I²C already, so it would be extremely easy to hook them up. So a sensor-loaded OH seems trivial. Barometer, colorimeter, temperature, humidity, hal-sensor, gyroscopes, magnetometers, sound decibel, lux, ultrasound distance meter, radar (Nokia was already toying with that concept), PIR sensor, 433MHz tranceivers for home domotica... You name it.
Also, put a CAN-transceiver in there and you can use the Jolla as extra console for your car, getting more, and more accurate readings from the car's sensors. Perhaps even tweak settings.
If the main display is OLED or something very akin, I can't see much need for an eInk display. I actually prefer to read books on the N9 at night than on my eInk e-reader...
joerg_rw
2013-09-20, 16:14
fwiw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I2c
You have to believe wikipedia. I guess 3.4Mb/s for uFM.
I know about fast and ultrafst i2c modes. But I also know about design rules for such ultrafast busses that regularly forbid stuff like B2B connectors and the like, that would distrub the wave-impedance of the bus and thus cause ringing/reflexions that introduces errors
Akkumaru
2013-09-20, 16:50
wasn't there also talks about connecting to raspberry pi or arduino directly? :D
If the main display is OLED or something very akin, I can't see much need for an eInk display.
Well, a dynamic back cover might have quite a nice WOW factor. :)
New (black and white ;-) ) look for every day, etc. :)
I actually prefer to read books on the N9 at night than on my eInk e-reader...
Still, when reading on the sun or if enough light is available, E-Ink still beats anything else for reading. So it might nice to be able to "turn around" between LCD/AM/OLED and an E-Ink screen.
Now when I think about it, most devices are not really designed to be used display-down. And most modern displays don't really have any protective "ridge" around the display, so they are resting directly on the display when put display-down. That could lead to quite some scratches.
If the main display is OLED or something very akin, I can't see much need for an eInk display. I actually prefer to read books on the N9 at night than on my eInk e-reader...
Hmm, I cant say the same at all, what eReader do you have?
Of course. Many sensors use I²C already, so it would be extremely easy to hook them up. So a sensor-loaded OH seems trivial. Barometer, colorimeter, temperature, humidity, hal-sensor, gyroscopes, magnetometers, sound decibel, lux, ultrasound distance meter, radar (Nokia was already toying with that concept), PIR sensor, 433MHz tranceivers for home domotica... You name it.
Also, put a CAN-transceiver in there and you can use the Jolla as extra console for your car, getting more, and more accurate readings from the car's sensors. Perhaps even tweak settings
I don't know if they have plans for any vertical markets but sensor-based OH could lead to it being used by technicians in certain fields and partnerships and co-branding could be used. I can see that as a potentially untapped resource for the future.
Fuzzillogic
2013-09-20, 19:56
Hmm, I cant say the same at all, what eReader do you have?
Sony PRS-600. The resistive touchscreen does add a reflective layer, so yeah, current models are way better. But it's more than that. Before sleeping it's best to avoid (bright) light. Melatonin and such. The white-on-black text on N9 is perfect for that. Also, I can read comfortable laying on sides or belly, and don't need glasses as it is easier to keep the device close to one's eyes.
For the Jolla OH, an alternative for eInk would be Mirasol (http://www.qualcomm.com/mirasol), made by... qualcomm. However, the I²C interface might be too slow for this.
I don't know if they have plans for any vertical markets but sensor-based OH could lead to it being used by technicians in certain fields and partnerships and co-branding could be used. I can see that as a potentially untapped resource for the future.
Good point. I work in the mobile software development business. We now focus on BYOD and Android. But for some types of work a standard mobile phone won't suffice. Laser barcode scanners are way better in many ways than using the camera to scan 2D barcodes. For some tasks very accurate GPS (with things like WAAS) is needed. Currently this would require specialized and expensive devices, or stand alone. A OH-concept would make it easier to design and cheaper to produce.
Also, the new iPhone 5S has an M7 "motion" coprocessor or whatever it is called. Turns out this is a very low-power Cortex A3 CPU capable of continuously processing movements. The OH could provide the same functionality to the Jolla. I don't know if it is possible to communicate with the internal sensors from the OH (two bus masters on I²C?) so you wouldn't need an extra sensor in the OH. But the option of such coprocessor in the OH seems very well possible to me.
joerg_rw
2013-09-20, 20:12
I work in the mobile software development business. We now focus on BYOD and Android. But for some types of work a standard mobile phone won't suffice. You might be interested in Neo900 (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142)
http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/page/CustomVariants/
https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04%20Custom
https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=Letux%203704
https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=Letux%207004
cheers
jOERG
For the Jolla OH, an alternative for eInk would be Mirasol (http://www.qualcomm.com/mirasol), made by... qualcomm. However, the I²C interface might be too slow for this.
Mirasol would indeed be awesome, I hope the interface is suitable...
I would like to see a wine bottle opener together with one for coke beer and other bottles.
benny1967
2013-10-04, 08:30
What I absolutely need is a huge, sturdy, fully functional mechanical rotary dial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_dial) on the back of my jolla phone. I want it to make the classical sounds when I dial, I want to feel the resistance when I operate it, I want it to be like my grandmother's phone when I was i little child. :)
This TOH list is very curious indeed. http://jollatides.com/2013/10/03/other-half-lets-prioritise/
mikecomputing
2013-10-04, 22:24
too lazy to read the entire thread (at the risk of getting flamed :P)
1. some kick-*** awesome speakers with a kick stand
not via I2C but via BT
Btw.... found this link, not intrested for me(not a gamer) but got too think of OTH when saw this:
https://twitter.com/evleaks/status/385119755587166208/photo/1
Akkumaru
2013-10-04, 23:57
People are forgetting NFC, it can operate much more but without direct support to the mainboard. Also things that pair up through NFC are battery powered by itself I believe?
Another aspect of the OH on which I hope we'll see more soon is how well it's attached to the main body.
There are no screws/bolts around (and swapping OHs should be anyway doable by non-engineers ;) ) so it is very likely some type of clips.
If that so, I wonder how robust they are. For a simple Angry Birds cover (or your-favorite-rockstar cover), that would be ok, but for applications where there is some mechanical strain between OH and main body (e.g. the mytical sliding HWKB, or a car dock that holds the device in place from the OH) probably it would not be enough and it would require some additional support (top+bottom 'clamping' brackets?).
mikecomputing
2013-10-05, 09:34
People are forgetting NFC, it can operate much more but without direct support to the mainboard. Also things that pair up through NFC are battery powered by itself I believe?
NFC can not be used more than very low bitrates and no its not selfpowered its takes energy from the mobiles battery.
NFC is better suited for "pairing" or transmit small chunks of data like one persons contactinfo if tap with another device.
But what would be nice is if Jolla phones did have RFID "card emulation mode enabled" to use the phone to access buildings etc. instead of using RFID cards.
But it seems no phone this days can be used that way even if it is possible :(
Another aspect of the OH on which I hope we'll see more soon is how well it's attached to the main body.
There are no screws/bolts around (and swapping OHs should be anyway doable by non-engineers ;) ) so it is very likely some type of clips.
If that so, I wonder how robust they are. For a simple Angry Birds cover (or your-favorite-rockstar cover), that would be ok, but for applications where there is some mechanical strain between OH and main body (e.g. the mytical sliding HWKB, or a car dock that holds the device in place from the OH) probably it would not be enough and it would require some additional support (top+bottom 'clamping' brackets?).
I wrote a couple of comments to Jollatides about the durability issues and how to avoid stacks of many OHs. Please see http://jollatides.com/2013/10/03/other-half-lets-prioritise/comment-page-2/#comment-10475 Please note, however, that I'm no expert of mechanics nor materials.
On Jollatides pages, more than 10 suggested OHs are supposed to contain an HDMI commector, mainly for TV set or monitor. But the "HDMI connector" in the wishlist seems to reflect more what is needed than what is feasible, because of the limited capacity of the i2C interface. So, how to solve this dilemma?
Could an optical link be used between Jolla phone and the other half? No optical fiber would be needed, just put the optical transmitter and receiver so that they almost touch each other. For good external screen, TV receiver or recorder, a one-way HDMI would be needed. But for more versatile use, the optical link interface should work two ways. Thanks to a high-capacity interface, the other half could work as a versatile data + entertainment hub. In order not to drain the battery in the Jolla phone, perhaps the optical compotents would need supply power from a peripheral device, such as TV set or monitor, only when needed.
Useful references: the WiF connection between iPhone and AppleTV, and the corresponding home entertainment hubs of Samsung etc. In those system video and other data are saved primarily in the hub, and smartphones have the role of entertainment-data sources rather than video players. HDMI cables are used to connect the hub to TV sets etc.
But I prefer an optical link, which would be more safe than Wi-Fi: no way to spy or crack.
mikecomputing
2013-10-07, 17:21
On Jollatides pages, more than 10 suggested OHs are supposed to contain an HDMI commector, mainly for TV set or monitor. But the "HDMI connector" in the wishlist seems to reflect more what is needed than what is feasible, because of the limited capacity of the i2C interface. So, how to solve this dilemma?
Could an optical link be used between Jolla phone and the other half? No optical fiber would be needed, just put the optical transmitter and receiver so that they almost touch each other. For good external screen, TV receiver or recorder, a one-way HDMI would be needed. But for more versatile use, the optical link interface should work two ways. Thanks to a high-capacity interface, the other half could work as a versatile data + entertainment hub. In order not to drain the battery in the Jolla phone, perhaps the optical compotents would need supply power from a peripheral device, such as TV set or monitor, only when needed.
Useful references: the WiF connection between iPhone and AppleTV, and the corresponding home entertainment hubs of Samsung etc. In those system video and other data are saved primarily in the hub, and smartphones have the role of entertainment-data sources rather than video players. HDMI cables are used to connect the hub to TV sets etc.
But I prefer an optical link, which would be more safe than Wi-Fi: no way to spy or crack.
Who says the phone has HDMI support?
Nowdays HDMI is already quite pointless for phone. In my opinion DLNA support is more than enough and newer TV's all support it. I have my media server PC connected to TV both with network cable and with HDMI. And I almost never use HDMI as the DLNA forks just perfectly.
This one should be easy to do; Other Half with an attachment for Sony DSC-QX series camera, with dedicated shutter button. I don't have one of these cameras, but hopefully they allow other apps to access it. Possibly a cutout to allow built-in flash and camera to show through. Timing the built-in flash may be next to impossible, but it could allow 3D images using both cameras.
Who says the phone has HDMI support?
I did not write that the Jolla phone has HDMI support. I only referred to the list of http://jollatides.com/2013/10/03/other-half-lets-prioritise/ and its comments. a kind of brainstorming of the future "other halves" for the Jolla phone. In some OHs it is natural to expect the screen of Jolla or the videos from Jola phone to be shown on a large screen. To fulfil those wishes, I asked whether the video signals and the large data flows to external hard disks could be transferred between the phone and its other half wirelessly, avoiding the bottleneck, the i2C interface. Some OHs could work like some entertainment hubs. The data is transferred with WiFi between the "video hubs" and phones of Apple and Samsung, for example. But does it make sense to use WiFi between the phone and its other half, over the distance of less than 0.3 mm? Perhaps an optical link might be better. So, I asked for comments. The optical or WiFi link would be needed just because Jolla phone does not have HDMI connector.
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7936/a9lt.jpg
Not sure if this has been posted before but i think an fm-transmitter would be awesome if possible and/or IR blaster.
EDIT: Mentioned on the first page. Silly me.
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7936/a9lt.jpg
I like that quite a bit. Camera is a bit more than stretching it, so I can do without that.
Nowadays HDMI/MHL/Similar is already quite pointless for phone.
Can't say I fully agree, at all, especially for a ph that doesn't support simultaneous dual-band/radio or 802.11AC.
But does it make sense to use WiFi between the phone and its other half, over the distance of less than 0.3 mm? Perhaps an optical link might be better. So, I asked for comments. The optical or WiFi link would be needed just because Jolla phone does not have HDMI connector.
You do realise that to use this fabled optical link, the primary part of the ph would need the ability to "transmit" optically, right?
And as the official specs of the phone don't list this capability, & as they're not likely to, your idea makes little sense.
And that's not even getting into the fact that I've never heard of such a BUS for mobile SoCs, have you?
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7936/a9lt.jpg
"Drools..." If only... :rolleyes: :(
Exchange with Jolla on Twitter, still none the wiser ofc, lets just hope their "eyes are wide open":
https://twitter.com/JediTWang/status/387465481927405568
Nowdays HDMI is already quite pointless for phone. In my opinion DLNA support is more than enough and newer TV's all support it. I have my media server PC connected to TV both with network cable and with HDMI. And I almost never use HDMI as the DLNA forks just perfectly.
I'm not familiar with the latest video techniques. So I must ask you Silwer: What kind of network are you talking about? I mean concrete building blocks, such as connectors and cables. Such information would be needed for the other-half list and brainstorming of http://jollatides.com/2013/10/03/other-half-lets-prioritise/ That exact information would help us figure out how to transfer high-bandwidth data between Jolla Phone, its other halves, and some accessories, such as a "Video hub" which can be kept near TV set, for example. And to figure out whether there are alternatives of HDMI.
As has been mentioned by others in those JollaUsers/Tides articles several times...
The respective editors need to bring their entire OH list here (or start a separate thread).
Then based on what we know, users here can help determine; which are feasible, which "might" be, & which are complete fantasy.
The ones that end-up in the complete fantasy pile, can then be whittled into: "possibility for future model" & "will never happen".
Would this help? It seems to be some kind of mysterious 'i2c-to-hdmi device'.
http://oi40.tinypic.com/2gsew5s.jpg
Anyway, this thread appears to be a brainstorm session and the worst thing to do in a brainstorm session is to discard ideas halfway!
Thanks, jalyst. Let's see what we get out of the poll.
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7936/a9lt.jpg
looks nice, but kamara is not needit, than better to take more battery.
Maybe a seccond (AMOLED) Display for only LPS Informations (Clock, Call, Message).... of course... black Backcover ;)
Thanks, jalyst. Let's see what we get out of the poll.
The editors there seem to have their wires crossed, the poll is asking the uninformed masses to vote on what they "like" most.
They will likely end-up with some of the finalists being OH's that aren't doable, & some non-finalists that are doable.
They will likely end-up with some of the finalists being OH's that aren't doable
I am dead certain when you ask general Joe Public something like that the answer sure as hell will be something that bears no close relationship with reality whatsoever.
Am I bloody pessimist today but I know for a fact that 6-sigma worth of people are dumb clueless idiots when it comes to any technology more complicated than a barn door hinge. :p
and then? the poll ends, then the OHs magically appear?
mikecomputing
2013-10-08, 18:37
This one should be easy to do; Other Half with an attachment for Sony DSC-QX series camera, with dedicated shutter button. I don't have one of these cameras, but hopefully they allow other apps to access it. Possibly a cutout to allow built-in flash and camera to show through. Timing the built-in flash may be next to impossible, but it could allow 3D images using both cameras.
How do you transmit the picture between the other half to the Display in realtime?
I think people expect to much from the I2C bus...
How do you transmit the picture between the other half to the Display in realtime?
I think people expect to much from the I2C bus...
If you look up the behavior of that device it uses Wifi to connect to the display and it works with any Android or IOS device. Not everything has to use I2C for Other Half connectivity.
3rd party device makers might like it if they can get things like this mobile payment system (Loop) (http://gigaom.com/2013/10/08/loops-interesting-twist-on-the-mobile-wallet/) integrated into an "other half" instead of looking like a bulky case. Why not have a case to house your "other halves" and change them like you change your shoes in the morning? One device--many different looks--maybe a new way of looking at things.
joerg_rw
2013-10-08, 23:34
Would this help? It seems to be some kind of mysterious 'i2c-to-hdmi device'.
http://oi40.tinypic.com/2gsew5s.jpg
Anyway, this thread appears to be a brainstorm session and the worst thing to do in a brainstorm session is to discard ideas halfway!
This is a HDMI<->"LCD" converter, for e.g video beamers and DVD-players. The I2C is only the control bus, not the video data.
How do you transmit the picture between the other half to the Display in realtime?
I think people expect to much from the I2C bus...The device presents itself as a WiFi access point. There is a JSON based API that returns the images as URLs, and the camera has its own storage. The images dont move across the i2c bus. Their android/ios app seems to show a viewfinder, so it looks like it can be near realtime
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