Akademy 2013 Keynote: Jolla's Vesa-Matti Hartikainen

[shmerl]

http://dot.kde.org/2013/06/26/akademy-2013-keynote-jollas-vesa-matti-hartikainen

[nokiabot]

So there will be marble as navi app i think:)

[Morpog]

Qt5 and wayland confirmed for first device!
https://twitter.com/JollaHQ/status/356034168351756290

@JollaHQ

@faenil @PeppeLaKappa @VDVsx our first Jolla will ship with wayland, yes

http://abload.de/img/bpdfdyjceaa1ird1nuij.jpg

[Morpog]

More pictures from Akademy found from several tweets:

http://abload.de/img/bpdbelrciambp6_csyc5.jpg

http://abload.de/img/bpdysimcyaarkytj4xvn.jpg

http://abload.de/img/bpddpl8ceae8ygzlra8w.jpg

http://abload.de/img/bpdewrmccaapgxngcai6.jpg

http://abload.de/img/bpdd9w-ceaard9fwbajh.jpg

http://abload.de/img/bpdcxbncmae0zr1zvxzs.jpg

[Fuzzillogic]

Qt5 and wayland confirmed for first device!
Which is excellent news. XWayland isn't supported however. I guess that rules out Qt4.x, and thus we get to see Qt5 from the get-go. Which is also good news!

However.. No XWayland support (and no Qt4.x) might limit the portability of apps from desktop-space? While it likely wouldn't be a design goal of Jolla, I'd still like the idea of hooking up a mobile to an HDMI screen, pairing a bt keyboard and mouse, and use it as a (admittedly somewhat limited) desktop, running full KDE. Is this correct? Or would it be trivial to add XWayland by the community using community-based repositories?

[tissot]

Jolla mentioned on their twitter that these demo videos will be made available on a later date.

[mikecomputing]

Which is excellent news. XWayland isn't supported however. I guess that rules out Qt4.x, and thus we get to see Qt5 from the get-go. Which is also good news!

However.. No XWayland support (and no Qt4.x) might limit the portability of apps from desktop-space? While it likely wouldn't be a design goal of Jolla, I'd still like the idea of hooking up a mobile to an HDMI screen, pairing a bt keyboard and mouse, and use it as a (admittedly somewhat limited) desktop, running full KDE. Is this correct? Or would it be trivial to add XWayland by the community using community-based repositories?

AFAIK 4.8 can run under wayland support? But I can remember wrong...

Starts make me think when will KDE go to 5.x series? I heard that Wayland will not be added to KDEDesktop until Q3 2014? I hope Qt5 and QtQuick2 comes before to make it easier port apps between the platforms. Also plasma active will run Qt5+wayland if I rememer correct?

[qwazix]

Marginally on topic, but Lxde is moving to Qt (4.x) too and the developer said he is going to skip 5.0 for 5.1 because 5.1 has better support for X. No wayland there so for the time being.

[benny1967]

Does Qt5 instead of Qt4 mean anything for the Python applications already ported to sailfish? I'm not sure, but I believe I've read somewhere that Python bindings aren't compatible (yet?) with Qt5. Is that correct?

[mattaustin]

Does Qt5 instead of Qt4 mean anything for the Python applications already ported to sailfish? I'm not sure, but I believe I've read somewhere that Python bindings aren't compatible (yet?) with Qt5. Is that correct?

Yes, unfortunately that is the case. PySide only works with Qt 4.8. Since Nokia sold Qt, it has become community maintained, and there are no solid Qt5 plans at the moment.

It's a real shame, as I've already ported my app to Silica/Sailfish (it runs great in the alpha SDK) - and now it turns out that it was a waste of my time. I have no experience with C++, but use Python every day.

[benny1967]

It's a real shame, as I've already ported my app to Silica/Sailfish (it runs great in the alpha SDK) - and now it turns out that it was a waste of my time. I have no experience with C, but use Python every day.

That was the impression I had - that many of the applications ported to Sailfish OS so far were written in Python. Of course not one single developer will re-write everything from scratch in C++.

Jolla must be aware of this, right? It just cannot be that they ask people to port applications without telling them that whatever runs in the Alpha SDK won't run on the final product. I really hope they find a way around this issue.

[soryuuha]

python simplicity beats C++..

[shmerl]

And C++ beats Python in efficiency. And don't even try to write complex multithreaded applications in Python. Each language has its benefits.

[MartinK]

Wit a bit of luck & patience we might get usable Qt5 from the PyQt project (in the form of PyQt5 (http://www.riverbankcomputing.com/news/pyqt-50)). It can already be built against Qt5, but does not currently support QtQuick (both 1&2). Unfortunately there are a few issue with using PyQt vs PySide

no QtQuick support & not timeline for it (hopefully shows up soon)

PySide does not currently support Qt5 at all and there is no timeline. Sfiet Konstantin said on IRC he'll try to at least build QtCore so we'll see. :)

no packages for Maemo, Mer or Nemo

PySide has ready made packages for Fremantle, Harmattan and Nemo

incompatibility with Fremantle and Harmattan - if PyQt starts to be used, backports to Maemo might get cumbersome

Unless the application either abstracts the PyQt and PySide difference or PyQt5 is backported to Fremantle and Harmattan

licensed under GPL - requires your application to be either also GPL or to purchase an expensive commercial license

While most Python applications on Maemo & co are open source, it might still limit some developers.



All in all, it's quite an issue, as it means both more work for Python devs, wasted effort for those who already ported their apps to the current Sailfish and also that #unlike on Fremantle and Harmattan, Python applications will not be first class citizens on Sailfish, at least not initially.

[mikecomputing]

Wit a bit of luck & patience we might get usable Qt5 from the PyQt project (in the form of PyQt5 (http://www.riverbankcomputing.com/news/pyqt-50)). It can already be built against Qt5, but does not currently support QtQuick (both 1&2). Unfortunately there are a few issue with using PyQt vs PySide

no QtQuick support & not timeline for it (hopefully shows up soon)

PySide does not currently support Qt5 at all and there is no timeline. Sfiet Konstantin said on IRC he'll try to at least build QtCore so we'll see. :)

no packages for Maemo, Mer or Nemo

PySide has ready made packages for Fremantle, Harmattan and Nemo

incompatibility with Fremantle and Harmattan - if PyQt starts to be used, backports to Maemo might get cumbersome

Unless the application either abstracts the PyQt and PySide difference or PyQt5 is backported to Fremantle and Harmattan

licensed under GPL - requires your application to be either also GPL or to purchase an expensive commercial license

While most Python applications on Maemo & co are open source, it might still limit some developers.



All in all, it's quite an issue, as it means both more work for Python devs, wasted effort for those who already ported their apps to the current Sailfish and also that #unlike on Fremantle and Harmattan, Python applications will not be first class citizens on Sailfish, at least not initially.

Isn't THP's also working at Jolla? I hope he gets sometime over working with pyside maybe? I probadly should be in his intrests cause of gpodder etc...

Btw. If PyQT dont even has QTQuick support. PySide definitivly must be best/fastes choice to port to Qt5. As I stated already I dont see WHY we need two bindings its just confusing and stupid.

[Morpog]

I heard thp is rewritting gPodder in c++.

[MartinK]

As I stated already I dont see WHY we need two bindings its just confusing and stupid.
I'ts for historical reasons - PyQt is far older project than PySide, IIRC dating back to Qt3 and maybe older. Its developed by quite a small company called Riverbank Computing, the livelihood of which pretty much depends on selling commercial PyQt licenses. That's why PyQt it is GPL only. Back then, KDE was also GPL only and Trolltech was financed in a similar manner.

But then Nokia bought Qt and published it under LGPL, making it usable for a wider range or developers. But negotiations with Riverside about changing the PyQt license fell through, so Nokia paid Openbossa to build alternative Python<->Qt bindings called PySide, available under LGPL.

Due to LGPL, PySide can be used even with proprietary software without buying a commercial license, and it seems to be quite popular with the likes of Maya and other big software companies. It's definitely not a Fremantle/Harmattan only affair, but due to the slow movement of big companies, we can't really count on them to help with porting PySide to Qt5 in near future.

The biggest problem with PySide became apparent when Nokia stopped paying Openbossa more than a year ago. Development slowed to a halt and most original developers left, even the original website eventually broke down and vanished.

Lately, there has been some progress with new community people taking over and recently releasing a 1.2 bugfix release (Qt4 only). Digia also doesn't seem to be interested in PySide (don't know if the new devs have asked them though).

As mentioned earlier, there is currently no Qt5 roadmap at all. Therefore it is unlikely there PySide will be usable with Qt5 when at the time when the first Jolla device is released. IMHO, only a major infusion of cash and/or coding ninjas to the project might help with that.

[mattaustin]

thp has been working on 'PyOtherSide (https://github.com/thp/pyotherside)', which he demos in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04DeqYuJHJU

I still need to take a closer look, but at least there might be an alternative.


There is also a potential glimmer of hope from Digia, with a mention that PySide might maybe sometime see some attention maybe possibly: http://lists.qt-project.org/pipermail/pyside/2013-July/001512.html

[Morpog]

thp blogging about future of Python on wayland with Qt5. Remember, he is a jolla employe since a few days/weeks.

The way forward with Python on Qt 5 (with a bit of history) (http://thpmaemo.blogspot.co.at/2013/07/the-way-forward-with-python-on-qt-5.html)

[Morpog]

Akademy videos are uploaded!

Mer
http://files.kde.org/akademy/2013/videos/David_Greaves_-_Mer_and_Qt.webm

SailfishOS
http://files.kde.org/akademy/2013/videos/Vesa-Matti_-_Qt,_Open_Source_and_Sailfish_OS.webm

All videos
http://files.kde.org/akademy/2013/videos/

[shmerl]

See in the Sailfish video (http://files.kde.org/akademy/2013/videos/Vesa-Matti_-_Qt,_Open_Source_and_Sailfish_OS.webm) (at 16:10) some comments about closed an open parts.