Neo900 - finally a successor of N900 [Archive] - Page 6 - maemo.org

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joerg_rw

2013-11-13, 18:23

so phone/modem will be a telit module ? this probably will be 2-3 mm height .. too bulky but will have electromagnetic shield.
with chips you need custom shield to fit pcb layout -> extra cost.
Nope, for now we're looking into cinterion module (family), see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1385493#post1385493 We're already designing a first "dummy" that fits into the N900 case and has a PHS8 (PLS8 not yet available), so we can test the module with our PCB footprint and the N900 antenna. (Of course the PCB serves other purposes too, like general size and mechanical verification and checking the switches we found. Maybe we'll test GPS too, already). We hope to showcase that dummy at Nov 30 OHSW (http://www.ohsw.org/)
/j

joerg_rw

2013-11-14, 14:31

Pledged: 36110.00 EUR Used: 0.00 EUR Number of Pledges: 198 Received: 33030.00 EUR Pledges 100+ EUR: 150 Pledges 1500+ EUR: 5
https://shop.goldelico.com/campaign/9603.php

wolke

2013-11-14, 16:49

if you count the excess money raised (36230-25000)/700=~16, youre getting fairly close to the projected 200 {16+151==167}.
{edit: 168 was a typo, not an arithmetic error. shut up dont judge me}

joerg_rw

2013-11-14, 17:03

if you count the excess money raised (36230-25000)/700=~16, youre getting fairly close to the projected 200 {16+151==168}.

This calculation is incorrect. When we had 100 donors each donating 500EUR then we had 50k obviously, but we need to ship 100 devices for that money plus 100*difference-to-sales-price. So zero "excess money" available anywhere in all this.
This calculation holds no info at all. we need to build - at least - 200 devices to make fab operate in (semi) economic range.
It would differ if we had a donated value of >700EUR per donor, then we actually could talk about "excess money".
/j

wolke

2013-11-14, 17:18

This calculation is incorrect. When we had 100 donors each donating 500EUR then we had 50k obviously, but we need to ship 100 devices for that money plus 100*difference-to-sales-price. So zero "excess money" available anywhere in all this.
This calculation holds no info at all. we need to build - at least - 200 devices to make fab operate in (semi) economic range.
It would differ if we had a donated value of >700EUR per donor, then we actually could talk about "excess money".
/j

right, this was nonsense from not having slept last night.

the 'excess' i was thinking about {and still not a meaningful concept} would be better calculated as 36,230-151*100=>21130-25000=> -3870.
if that number were positive and large, then you could divide it into fake preorders, assuming everything else goes perfectly.

joerg_rw

2013-11-17, 18:22

OK, big news for some few of you: we evaluated our options and decided that probably we eventually can publish the full EAGLE project files. ;-)

cheers
jOERG

The Wizard of Huz

2013-11-17, 19:00

OK, big news for some few of you: we evaluated our options and decided that probably we eventually can publish the full EAGLE project files. ;-)

cheers
jOERG

What does that mean? EAGLE files?

jalyst

2013-11-17, 19:05

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EAGLE_%28program%29

joerg_rw

2013-11-17, 22:52

We ordered PCB for first "dummy" ('only' phone/data function and GPS, mechanic verification) today
http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Neo900/media/pic+vid/dummy0-proto_upper-board.png
http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Neo900/media/pic+vid/dummy1-proto_lower-board.png

We hope to demonstrate this frist real hardware on OSHW
30. Nov. - 1. Dec 2013: www.ohsw.org - Open Hard- and Software Workshop in Garching (Munich), Germany.
Not much time till then, we however hope we make it in time. :-)

cheers
jOERG

joerg_rw

2013-11-17, 23:22

Werner Almesberger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=werner+almesberger&go=Go):
yeah. that's as good as it can get.
( http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/qi-hardware_2013-11-17.log.html#t23:00 )

sulu

2013-11-18, 10:04

we evaluated our options and decided that probably we eventually can publish the full EAGLE project files. ;-)Just for clarification:
You intend to release these files under a license/licenses that would qualify the project as open-source hardware?

joerg_rw

2013-11-18, 12:46

if we manage to do this, then under a licence that would probably qualify it as OSHW.
Though i'm not going to argue with the zealots of openness anymore about such things, since they have very own ideas sometimes. Up to You to check what we do and you put attributes to it.

dos1

2013-11-19, 01:44

We've published new note on our website with general progress update. Almost everything you could already read from this thread, so enjoy being the first who knew! :D

http://neo900.org/news-0004-progress-update

BTW. Have you noticed that we've just been covered by Wired (http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/11/neo900/)? :)

Akkumaru

2013-11-19, 02:52

I've been following this from day one and I cannot wait until it's show off at OHSW :D

joerg_rw

2013-11-19, 03:02

don't get mistaken, this is a "dummy" without any CPU on it, it only has the modem and the switches and keyboard and connectors, and the PCB of course. We are using it to verify modem functionality and mechanical aspects like switch and contact positions and shape of the PCB.
It will probably impress the hell out of bystanders when we initiate a voice call by typing in the number on the laptop hooked up to the USB of the dummy and then we read out our GPS position and log in to the internet via UMTS, but technically it's not yet the real thing.
Just being honest to you, of course we will get excited when we see our first PCB fitting nicely into the N900 case :)

cheers
jOERG

Zero Six

2013-11-19, 04:00

I have questions related to comments that I read from http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/11/neo900/
From what I read there, is that mean that there are possiblities that a phone with a non-complete-control-modem get data from your phone and transfer it to somewhere else?
There are possibilites that there are people out there who can control your modem and spying or tapping on you?

N900 already has offline mode, is that mean offline mode on N900 actually is not really real offline unlike offline mode on Neo900?

joerg_rw

2013-11-19, 04:22

Please reread, all the answers are already there. Our modem can NOT access anything, unlike some (android) smartphones that have shared RAM, our modem is a peripheral that's under control of the maemo/whatever linux system on the main CPU. For N900 the situation is the same, though the control and particularly surveillance over the BB5 modem in N900 is not as tight as will be on Neo900. We can not guarantee that the N900 modem is really offline when you switch it offline, there is a theoretical possibility that somebody installs a specially crafted spy-firmware on the modem that would make the modem connect to the network even in offline mode. However that would get noticed sooner or later.

/j

Ken-Young

2013-11-19, 05:10

Please reread, all the answers are already there. Our modem can NOT access anything, our modem is a peripheral that's under control of the maemo/whatever linux system on the main CPU. For N900 the situation is the same, though the control and particularly surveillance over the BB5 modem in N900 is not as tight as will be on Neo900. We can not guarantee that modem is really offline when you switch it offline, there is a theoretical possibility that somebody installs a specially crafted spy-firmware on the modem that would make the modem connect to the network even in offline mode. However that would get noticed sooner or later.

/j

But with the neo900, the user will have the ability to remove power to the modem, right? My understanding is that the neo900 owner will have the ability to power-down the modem under software control (on the main processor), which will give one the freedom from tracking that can be acheived with other phones only by removing the battery. Am I wrong about that?

enekux

2013-11-19, 07:50

Battery, battery, battery...
it has been said million times: battery will be the same as in N900. No one have working prototype so no one can say the facts (7 hours, 42 minutes and 3 seconds, just guessing.), but (how has been said in this thread) we are expecting battery life similar as on N900.

Not good enough? Two solutions: (second one is more friendly)

Don't buy it.
Buy Estel's Alu cover (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=83928) with space for second battery (and many more features) - that's my dream.

Status page? There is an neo900.org (http://neo900.org) where you can find some informations, this thread, the developers thread and also Wiki page (http://wiki.maemo.org/Neo900).

You can help with that, if you want! :)

#lexik

Hi,

for those who would like to increase the battery life of their N900s I would recommend to have a look to dr_frost_dk posts "Battery Tests, Homemade 3000mAh XL Battery & Q&A (POST #1) - New Layout" (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=65568).

In my case I bought 2x PolarCell batteries and a mugen cover and my device runs non-stop for 2 days+.

Now the question is... will Neo900 consider this and include it in their designs?

Regards,

BTW: I want to congratulate the leaders of this project. I think that initiatives like this one are what we need in this world controlled by big corporations... keep the good work!!

I am so excited...

bills2north

2013-11-19, 07:53

666 votes so far. Keep it up you guys this project sounds very interesting. My n900 broke 2 years ago along with my heart.

-Cheers

Akkumaru

2013-11-19, 08:08

Hi,

for those who would like to increase the battery life of their N900s I would recommend to have a look to dr_frost_dk posts "Battery Tests, Homemade 3000mAh XL Battery & Q&A (POST #1) - New Layout" (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=65568).

In my case I bought 2x PolarCell batteries and a mugen cover and my device runs non-stop for 2 days+.

Now the question is... will Neo900 consider this and include it in their designs?

Regards,

BTW: I want to congratulate the leaders of this project. I think that initiatives like this one are what we need in this world controlled by big corporations... keep the good work!!

I am so excited...

I am going to safely assume that nope you are not getting space for an extra battery. However, as it uses the original N900 case you can use your Mugen with it, so no problem.

pichlo

2013-11-19, 08:56

It will probably impress the hell out of bystanders when we [...] read out our GPS position [...]

From inside the conference building? That would impress the hell out of me too! :)

juiceme

2013-11-19, 09:30

From inside the conference building? That would impress the hell out of me too! :)

I'd imagine you can connect a little better antenna to the demo device for that purpose, and maybe run a coax up to the nearest window... That's what I would do in that situation. :D

joerg_rw

2013-11-19, 13:29

From inside the conference building? That would impress the hell out of me too! :)

Yes, I hope for nearby windows and an outstanding GNSS performance.
/j

The Wizard of Huz

2013-11-19, 15:19

Hi joerg_rw. Is it possible to detach the keyboard from pcb? I want to design a body in which the keyboard is located below the screen at the same level as the screen. So I will get thinner device and still have 2 batteries side by side.

Something that looks like this (http://goput.it/ehd.jpg)(I did not draw that :-)

Finished device would be the size of Palm V (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_V).

Edit: added info and links.

joerg_rw

2013-11-19, 15:34

Hi joerg_rw. Is it possible to detach the keyboard from pcb?...
Though we plan to have a 80% "cut off" (some trench milled into the PCB to allow kbd to bend without making the BGA chips on other half of PCB go 'pop'), and thus a "breaking off" of kbd PCB half was theoretically possible maybe, you still would need to place that other half of upper-PCB - with its display connector and whatnot - somewhere, so nothing gained by such design regarding thickness of device. Sorry.

You rather should think about placing additional battery volume underneath the "roof" formed by slide-up display. There's available volume of roughly 23*12*110 mm^3 which makes for quite some LiIon-stored energy.

If you want to lift the kbd a few mm to make it flush and plane with display, you easily can attach a second kbd to replace the original one.

/j

joerg_rw

2013-11-19, 16:48

our first modem sample for the prototype
http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Neo900/media/pic+vid/PHS8-module_001.jpeg

Tricky to solder:
http://www.ibl-loettechnik.de/downloads/Aktuelles/Todays Vapor Phase Soldering SMTAI Orlando - 080820.pdf
/j

joerg_rw

2013-11-19, 17:25

But with the neo900, the user will have the ability to remove power to the modem, right? My understanding is that the neo900 owner will have the ability to power-down the modem under software control (on the main processor), which will give one the freedom from tracking that can be acheived with other phones only by removing the battery. Am I wrong about that?
Yes, basically you're right about that. Plus we probably will add functions that allow the main processor to detect exactly what state the modem is in, so we know for example when it starts sending, we know when it's powered up/booting, etc. Double security :-)
/j

nokiabot

2013-11-19, 17:45

Yes, basically you're right about that. Plus we probably will add functions that allow the main processor to detect exactly what state the modem is in, so we know for example when it starts sending, we know when it's powered up/booting, etc. Double security :-)
/j

does it mean a light will blink when the mordem is sending or reciveing ? That would be very kind i can know when my 2.5g broadband is down without fussing. also in sparetime think of the all time lisening radio it will provide help when lost or when far away:)

joerg_rw

2013-11-19, 17:53

does it mean a light will blink when the mordem is sending or reciveing ? That would be very kind i can know when my 2.5g broadband is down without fussing. also in sparetime think of the all time lisening radio it will provide help when lost or when far away:)

Yes, that's the basic idea. You can have a daemon on linux doing such "LED blinking" (or whatever else notification you want to implement).

We won't implement an always-on radio just for an extreme niche case, particularly not when it introduces massive vulnerability. (and we don't have any "spare time" :) )

/j

PWN900

2013-11-20, 02:40

npsimons

2013-11-20, 16:47

When it comes to feature parity, I hope that AWS 3G is retained. I know it is a band that few people use or care about, but I use it every day (I am a US n900 owner). If T-Mobile US successfully moves it's HSDPA services to the 1900 band, perhaps this will be a less of a dealbreaker in the future.

I'm with you there; for various non-technical reasons (read: the wife won't switch), I'm stuck on T-Mobile. Not that I'm complaining about T-Mobile service, but "upgrading" to a phone that won't work with my service plan is a no go. I would also like to see this thing packed with as much RAM as possible, and Bluetooth low power. Those are my two biggest pain points right now on N900. Everything else is just icing, albeit very welcome icing :)

Of course, if I'm really dreaming, I'd like to see a truly flexible software defined radio (or multiple ones!) put in, so that any future wireless standards could be easily handled by loading different firmware profiles/software configurations. Just think: no more missing out on newer standards like NFC, or backwards compatibility with devices such as ANT. A higher megapixel camera would also be nice, but it's not a dealbreaker. Faster CPU is good, as long as it can be scaled way down on the power consumption (another pain point).

joerg_rw

2013-11-20, 16:59

I'm with you there; for various non-technical reasons (read: the wife won't switch), I'm stuck on T-Mobile. Not that I'm complaining about T-Mobile service, but "upgrading" to a phone that won't work with my service plan is a no go.

Please refer to http://m2m.gemalto.com/products/m2m-advanced.html (recommended: PLS8-US, PLS8-E, PXS8) and pick your favourite. We build to order :-)

For the rest of your requests: we're doing our best. Please refer to all this got discussed in this very thread before.

cheers
jOERG

npsimons

2013-11-20, 17:10

Please refer to http://m2m.gemalto.com/products/m2m-advanced.html (recommended: PLS8-US, PLS8-E, PXS8) and pick your favourite. We build to order :-)

For the rest of your requests: we're doing our best. Please refer to all this got discussed in this very thread before.

cheers
jOERG

Thank you, not just for this, but for all you do! As a code monkey, I'm not much into the hardware side these days, so I highly appreciate all this work; it's what I've been looking for for a while.

Sorry about the duplicate requests; I hadn't had a chance to peruse the whole thread yet.

Also, I'm not sure how much help is needed (or how much time I could spare), but I used to hack on RTLinux and would love an opportunity to help with software, even if it's just code reviews. One of these days, I ought to find a way to get paid full-time to do Linux kernel hacking again . . .

EDIT: 129 pages, is a *lot* to peruse, but I suppose this comment isn't helping; perhaps a wiki page to boil it down/keep most recent developments on, and put a link to that at the top of the first page. Also, I did find the links to the SW dev side; I will keep an eye on those; count me in!

joerg_rw

2013-11-20, 18:29

Thanks to massive help from Xes, I've been able to sort out the camdoor proximity sensor component and partially the magnet sensor backcover detector.
Still pending and a HUGE problem: the SMIA95-16pin THRUboard connector for the main camera module. Any help much appreciated!

cheers
jOERG

PS: @npsimons: Help on the FPTF much needed and highly appreciated. Please /join #maemo-ssu on freenode.net and talk to the guys there.

The Wizard of Huz

2013-11-20, 22:45

Though we plan to have a 80% "cut off" (some trench milled into the PCB to allow kbd to bend without making the BGA chips on other half of PCB go 'pop'), and thus a "breaking off" of kbd PCB half was theoretically possible maybe, you still would need to place that other half of upper-PCB - with its display connector and whatnot - somewhere, so nothing gained by such design regarding thickness of device. Sorry./j

If it it possible to separate those two parts, than I can set the keyboard part a little higher than the upper-PCB, so that the screen and keyboard will be on the same level. Other wise the screen will be a few mm higher off the pcb than the keyboard, even after removing the sliding mechanism.

You rather should think about placing additional battery volume underneath the "roof" formed by slide-up display. There's available volume of roughly 23*12*110 mm^3 which makes for quite some LiIon-stored energy.

If you want to lift the kbd a few mm to make it flush and plane with display, you easily can attach a second kbd to replace the original one.

/j

Are you saying that it is possible to use other batteries than the N900 battery?
Edit: is it possible to use Note 2 battery?

joerg_rw

2013-11-20, 23:01

Are you saying that it is possible to use other batteries than the N900 battery?
Edit: is it possible to use Note 2 battery?

Of course it's possible to use any standard chemistry 3.7V LiIon cell with Neo900 - if you find a way to connect it instead of or in parallel to the BL-5J. Where you place that battery is another problem. I think there are companies that build LiIon to order, in low quantity. No idea abut Note2 battery.

/j

Ariadeno

2013-11-20, 23:25

Hmm.. It looks like neo900 will be coming out before Jolla.

Akkumaru

2013-11-21, 01:59

Hmm.. It looks like neo900 will be coming out before Jolla.

Not necessarily. Jolla's on 27th November for Finland (still limited). For others probably December or January. At OHSW the Neo900 isn't complete either, just to showcase the modem and others (I'm not sure what others are :P)

The Wizard of Huz

2013-11-21, 02:26

just wondering if you or anyone els has exsplored the idea of using 3D plastic printing to buld a modified case for your needs?

I did. But milling it out of aluminum (or titanium) is better because the case will be much stronger. 3d printed plastic case needs designed in reinforcements and such, and the surface has not as nice finishing as milled alu.
Nokia has released cad drawings for some lumia cases which were 3d printed by users, and they broke very easily.

And Estel has build a milling machine, would be waste to 3d print ;)

joerg_rw

2013-11-21, 02:59

Alu case will ruin all antenna tuning. I also wonder how it's related to Neo900. (aka "OT")

The Wizard of Huz

2013-11-21, 03:09

Alu case will ruin all antenna tuning. I also wonder how it's related to Neo900. (aka "OT")

Not necessarily according to Estel, depending on design. If you put antennae on the outside of alu case.

Regarding OT, the idea is to make a case which will also fit neo900 board.

Akkumaru

2013-11-21, 03:36

Does this page help? http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=86208&page=4
Post #36 to be exact

joerg_rw

2013-11-21, 03:36

putting antenna next to a massive conducting plane like alucase is ruining the antenna tuning, no matter on which "side" - actually there's no such thing like a "side" for omnidirectional antennae.
On OT, this is as much OT in here like any other N900 related topic. Since all N900 stuff also applies to Neo900, you could discuss exactly 100% of all the other N900/maemo threads in this thread as well, right?
Please move it elsewhere! E.G. to a thread about N900 case modding

joerg_rw

2013-11-21, 03:37

joerg_rw

2013-11-21, 03:46

Does this page help? http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=86208&page=4
Post #36 to be exact

#36 already says it: that's a chip with NAND and only 256MByte of RAM. I'm looking for a chip with maybe no NAND at all (we can add that as discrete chip) but definitely with 1GByte aka 8Gbit of RAM

Thanks nevertheless :)
/j

The Wizard of Huz

2013-11-21, 04:14

Akkumaru

2013-11-21, 05:57

joerg_rw

2013-11-21, 06:21

Have you browsed around the Micron webpage? Seems like they have a lot of things related to mobile RAM but I'm not sure if it'll fit your needs..
http://download.micron.com/pdf/datasheets/dram/mobile/ddr_mobile_sdram_only_168b_pop.pdf
http://www.micron.com/products#products
:)

EDIT: Is this the device you were looking at? http://omapworld.com/zoom.html
Seems like they also use Micron for their PoP MCP memory.

Yes, we checked micron site and also the pdf you linked to, which is about chips with all the properties we need, just 1Gbit, not 1 GByte. Quite possible we missed something on micron site, that's why I'm asking what Zoom2 (the thing you linked to in your edit) is using in their OMAP36x version which clearly states "1GByte of PoP RAM and discrete 512MB of NAND"

/j

Akkumaru

2013-11-21, 06:47

How about this? http://www.micron.com/products/dram/mobile-lpdram#fullPart&175=1&218=7&236=8&306=0
I browsed in Mobile LPDRAM (not sure if these are used in mobile phones, but seems like it)
checked 168-pin, 8Gb (8Gb is equivalent to 1GB? from your post #1296) and checked PoP.
I don't know much about these but just checked the specs that I know of that you need. :)

joerg_rw

2013-11-21, 07:03

yes, http://www.micron.com/~/media/Documents/Products/Data Sheet/DRAM/Mobile DRAM/Low-Power DRAM/LPDDR/70-series/T79M_2Gb_mobile_lpddr_sdram.pdf looks good at first cursory glance:-)

Thanks
/j

ste-phan

2013-11-21, 08:35

Urgently searching for a 1GByte PoP RAM chip to place on top of the OMAP SoC!
N9 has 110J1H0K which is a phantom chip (doesn't exist in real life, only in the local reality created by Nokia inside N9)
TI Zoom2 OMAP36x obviously also has some 1GByte PoP chip, could somebody please find such device and read the label on this chip and tell it to me here?
Or even better, tell me where to buy ~200pcs 1GByte LPDDR PoP-168pin chips

Many thanks in advance!
jOERG

Is it a good idea to ask for critical hardware over here in the open?
I noticed the project has been catching some attention in main IT press and one phone call to Micron may shut the doors to 200pcs till babies are born with Android chips inside their brains.
If I am out of line , I apologize, I like open but you know how they play the games.

juiceme

2013-11-21, 08:41

Is it a good idea to ask for critical hardware over here in the open?
I noticed the project has been catching some attention in main IT press and one phone call to Micron may shut the doors to 200pcs till babies are born with Android chips inside their brains.
If I am out of line , I apologize, I like open but you know how they play the games.

Fairly paranoid attitude, if I may say so.
Who do you think would see such a hobbyist project something worth the trouble to disturb?

joerg_rw

2013-11-21, 08:48

indeed, particularly since micron never will sell 200 pcs of any of their chips, we need to get them from farnell, mousser, digikey, alibaba... Good luck with calling all those and convince them to stop selling a particular component to anybody. Sounds like trying to stop Sebastian Vettel by convincing $big_oil not to sell any more gasoline to him.

/j

pichlo

2013-11-21, 08:56

Alu case will ruin all antenna tuning. I also wonder how it's related to Neo900. (aka "OT")

Whilst custom cases are indeed OT, antenna considerations may not be. As mentioned in post #1194 (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1385138&postcount=1194), I've replaced the housing of one of my N900s. I still plan to write up a proper summary, although I have a lot going on right now.

A bit of warning - the two strange, detachable, bits of plastic in the back cover (under the battery cover, i.e. hidden from normal view) with the mounting screws going through them are actually the GSM and WiFi/Bluetooth antennae, respectively. That is to say, they have some circuitry inside them. The housing that I purchased had those bits, except they were just plain bits of plastic of exactly the same shape, with the result that the phone did not work unless I used those bits from the original housing.

So I think it's worth emphasizing due care when choosing any aftermarket cases. Sorry if I am stating the obvious, better safe than sorry.

ste-phan

2013-11-21, 08:58

Fairly paranoid attitude, if I may say so.
Who do you think would see such a hobbyist project something worth the trouble to disturb?

Paranoid, true.
Who would disturb this project?
In fact I think they already have way in advance.
The supplier of the chips in the first place would disturb the project, based on agreements with his current big customers that demand exclusive prices for higher volumes.
I am certain they could support such a project with almost free overstock of chips but I guess they won't for commercial reasons.

2nd in line the companies that have destroyed the N900 development in 2010.

NSA? :D

If some key people would have been more paranoid we might have been using an N900x with 2GB RAM today.

joerg_rw

2013-11-21, 09:02

pichlo
Thanks, we are aware of the antennae and of the many many fakes you can buy at aftermarket. That's why we need to start early with ordering samples and evaluating them, and that's why we need a good idea of the number of cases (and other critical parts) we need to source. In the end it will be this stuff that might not allow us to serve any orders that came in 'late', i.e. without a "preorder" in form of a 100+ donation. It might take several months to source the additional critical parts for additional orders we didn't calculate with.

/j

ste-phan

2013-11-21, 09:18

Urgently searching for a 1GByte PoP RAM chip to place on top of the OMAP SoC!
N9 has 110J1H0K which is a phantom chip (doesn't exist in real life, only in the local reality created by Nokia inside N9)
TI Zoom2 OMAP36x obviously also has some 1GByte PoP chip, could somebody please find such device and read the label on this chip and tell it to me here?
Or even better, tell me where to buy ~200pcs 1GByte LPDDR PoP-168pin chips

Many thanks in advance!
jOERG

http://www.winbond.com/hq/enu/ProductAndSales/ProductLines/MobileRAM/LowPowerDDR2SDRAM/

They claim "we deliver" :D

pichlo

2013-11-21, 09:34

They claim "we deliver" :D

2Gb (i.e. 256MB) max?

Akkumaru

2013-11-21, 11:14

Glad I could be a help :D But but but, micron won't deliver?

toams

2013-11-21, 13:29

hi guys,

just dropping by to say i'm very interested in this project. i joined this forum just to be able to vote the poll. unfortunedly it looks like the price will be to high for me. i would gladly pay 300 euro for a complete neo900, maybe even up to 400 euro's. but anything higher is to much for me :( . anyways, i really hope you guys will succeed! and maybe there will be enough demand so the price drops below 400 euros

sulu

2013-11-21, 14:15

Just a thought (that may be totally unrealistic due to my lack of knowledge concerning electr(on)ics):

The N900 battery BL-5J [1] has these specs:
3.7 V; 60 x 38 x 5.5 mm

A NiMH AAA (micro) battery [2] usually has these specs:
1.25V; 44.5 x 10.5 x 10.5 mm

A NiMH AA (mignon) battery [3] usually has these specs:
1.25V; 50.5 x 14.5 x 14.5 mm

So physically 3 AAA batteries or 2 AA batteries would fit into the battery bay if one has some custom back cover (the Mugen one should already be able to house AAA batteries) and some sort of adapter that would still have to be designed.
3 AAAs in series connection would even come pretty close to the 3.7V of the BL-5J. I'm not sure if 2.4 V that two AAs could provide might even be worth discussing.

So would it be feasible to design the board in a way that it can accept 3xAAA (or maybe even 2xAA) cells?
What I absolutely don't know is if NiMH and Li-Ion have some fundamental difference in behavior that would exclude an idea like this.

[1] http://www.cpkb.org/wiki/Nokia_BL-5J_battery
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAA_battery
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AA_battery

malkavian

2013-11-21, 14:40

NiMH an Li-Ion batteries are charged with a diferent system. And moreover that NIMH batteries will have much less mAh than a LI-Ion battery of same size so will last much less

sulu

2013-11-21, 14:49

NiMH an Li-Ion batteries are charged with a diferent system.I know. What I don't know is what exactly that difference is and if there is a way to reasonably implement both systems on the same board.

And moreover that NIMH batteries will have much less mAh than a LI-Ion battery of same size so will last much lessI have NiMH AAA cells with 1.1Ah at home. That's not that far away from the 1.32Ah of the BL-5J.

vi_

2013-11-21, 15:06

I know. What I don't know is what exactly that difference is and if there is a way to reasonably implement both systems on the same board.

I have NiMH AAA cells with 1.1Ah at home. That's not that far away from the 1.32Ah of the NB-5L.

You need to supply ~3.3V MINIMUM for the n900 to not die on it's arse.

You can get a bl-5j with 1500mAh. I am sure I even had one that was 1600mAh.

Even if your NiMH are 1100mAh, you will need 3 of them in series to make the minimum voltage. But you would still only have an 1100mAh battery.

In short, it would be pointless.

sulu

2013-11-21, 15:24

You need to supply ~3.3V MINIMUM for the n900 to not die on it's arse.Thanks!

Even if your NiMH are 1100mAh, you will need 3 of them in series to make the minimum voltage. But you would still only have an 1100mAh battery.Correct.

In short, it would be pointless.My point is, that there's a chance the Neo900 might be my very last "smartphone", most likely because one day my eyes will be too weak to decipher a 3.5" display.
That day probably is 15 or 20 years in the future. I'm not sure if BL-5Js or something compatible will still be around at that time. But I'm pretty sure AAAs will be.

Someone else (certainly not me) might bring up that even today out in the wilderness finding some spare AAA cells might be easier than finding a BL-5J.

joerg_rw

2013-11-21, 16:17

3*AA = 3*1,65V(max_alkaline)=4.95V -> phone fried
3*AA = 3*1.20V(C60%_alkaline)==3.6V -> close to modem shutdown

So you can fry your phone with full alkaline primary cells, while discharging them from 100%->60% already gives you a non-operable phone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_battery#Voltage
/j

malkavian

2013-11-21, 16:18

In 20 years in future, your mobile will maybe be an small on-ear gadchet, a molar implant and some glasses.

Or maybe just a direct brain implant XD.

sperle

2013-11-21, 17:48

gin 2ß years i will find my n900 and make some incredible things with it and smile

wicket

2013-11-21, 18:26

yes, http://www.micron.com/~/media/Documents/Products/Data Sheet/DRAM/Mobile DRAM/Low-Power DRAM/LPDDR/70-series/T79M_2Gb_mobile_lpddr_sdram.pdf looks good at first cursory glance:-)

Thanks
/j
See also here (http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/Memory_Vendor_Selection_Guide#Memory_Vendors). Some of these vendors may need to contacted to find out what's available. It seems Hynix also do an 8Gb LPDDR 168 ball PoP (http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/Hynix_PoP).

joerg_rw

2013-11-21, 18:37

See also here (http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/Memory_Vendor_Selection_Guide#Memory_Vendors). Some of these vendors may need to contacted to find out what's available. It seems Hynix also do an 8Gb LPDDR 168 ball PoP (http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/Hynix_PoP).
Thanks wicket!
actually when I clicked on your link, Konqueror told me its "<2>" (= second window on same URL). Alas hynix is not really easy to approach for what they offer, you seem to have to call them or mail them. The MCP NAND+RAM package quoted on your 2nd link is a 1GByte NAND plus 512MB RAM. We need 1GByte RAM and we don't care too much about NAND, though of course a 512+MB of NAND on same package would be more than welcome. Anyway we can do NAND on discrete chip, while RAM interface is only available on PoP balls of DM3730 (http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/Memory_Vendor_Selection_Guide#Sitara_Memory.C2.A0P ackage_options) in the CBP package we need to use. We are pondering to go for CUS package (no PoP at all) but that would cost us a UART and a McBSP :-/

PS: the micron 8Gbit density PoP RAM (http://www.micron.com/parts/dram/mobile-ddr-sdram/mt46h256m32l4jv-5-it?pc=%7B77C6853B-2F4D-4E62-A2F8-7B42387D1533%7D)
datasheet (http://www.micron.com/products/datasheets/2774b20f-f750-4206-b3a8-e85897298ed6)
again only states 2Gbit density,The 2Gb Mobile low-power DDR SDRAM is a high-speed CMOS, dynamic random-access memory containing 2,147,483,648 bits. that's maybe why I failed on micron's components when searching for a chip 8 weeks ago.

BTW there's a tiny detail that makes our life as hw-engineers a whole lot harder than sw-engineers usually understand it was: when we decide for a component, then we need to know ONEHUNDRED PERCENT that it will fit and match and work. Then we have to spend a lot of money and time to *get* the component and integrate it into the design. And if we fail and picked the wrong component, we easily can burn 100s of k$. IOW we must act impeccable. Any OOOPS is a killer. While software engineers just deploy a patch to fix their oopsies ;-)
/j

Alecsandru

2013-11-21, 20:54

joerg_rw

2013-11-21, 21:08

how about this? http://www.directindustry.com/prod/hynix/ddr-ram-memory-mobile-applications-34497-1274567.html
by the way is listed 1-*(to) 4 GB:confused:
buy hynix trought intermediars ?:confused:

Please don't get fooled, again 1..4Gbit aka 128 .. 512MByte. We know we can get 512MByte easily, even combined with 1GByte NAND. But we need 1GByte RAM!
See http://www.hynix.com/products/mobile/mobile.jsp?info.ramCategory=&info.ramKind=28&info.eol=NOT&posMap=MobileDDR2 linked directly from the page you referred to, resp http://www.hynix.com/products/mobile/mobile.jsp?info.ramCategory=&info.ramKind=17&info.eol=NOT&posMap=MobileDDR which is the correct memory type for us (DDR[1])
It however seems hynix is not listing all they actually have.

Alecsandru

2013-11-21, 21:13

is listed as GB
GB-GigaByte
Gb - Gigabit
1 Byte=8 bit
or those standards are depreciated
sorry for the language but WTF
AND ABOUT NEO : emmc? how big? did you find chips?

joerg_rw

2013-11-21, 21:49

AND ABOUT NEO : emmc? how big? did you find chips?
eMMC chips are a nobrainer compared to this PoP disaster. We will pick a nice one when the time is up to do so. There's abundance to choose from and available options get better every week. 64GB is probably no issue and speed getting constantly better. Don't worry about eMMC, it will be "good enough" :)

Akkumaru

2013-11-22, 05:42

Apparently a quick search of SK Hynix shows that they're developing DDR3 mobile RAM of 1GB up to 4GB and it is 20nm. Although, I couldn't find more info except for press release.
Source: http://www.skhynix.com/en/pr_room/news-data-view.jsp?search.seq=2235&search.gubun=0014

bretus

2013-11-23, 04:05

Hi
just a question about 3g compatibility since about 12 months ago Telstra in Australia changed there 3g network which left the Nokia n900 with no 3g access.
Will the Neo n900 have the same issue?

joerg_rw

2013-11-23, 06:35

sorry I can't answer that question since I neither know what Telstra Australia changed nor which bands and WWAN technology they offer now.
You'll need to find out which GSM and/or UMTS and/or LTE bands you could use, and then compare to the P*S8 WWAN module series at http://m2m.gemalto.com/products/m2m-advanced.html and check the bands those modules support - particularly we recommend the PLS8-E, PLS8-US, PXS8. When you found one of the modules that matches your needs, you order your Neo900 with the according module.

BR
jOERG

Freddie

2013-11-23, 08:00

A bunch of gun thieves stole my phone!!!!
It sucks cos I can't find another to use, I have to buy another N900 as a standby as I wait for the neo900.
Track/security features were down, had truecrypt and SMSCon but....had not set it up....learnt my lesson...GO Neo900 go! We're watchin

sulu

2013-11-23, 11:41

Hi
just a question about 3g compatibility since about 12 months ago Telstra in Australia changed there 3g network which left the Nokia n900 with no 3g access.
Will the Neo n900 have the same issue?It seems like Telstra switched its 3G band from 2100MHz to 850MHz in Semptember 2012 [1][2]. According to the modem data sheets the Neo900 should support the 850MHz band as long as you chose the PXS8 [3] or PLS8-US [4], NOT the PLS8-E.

[1] http://whirlpool.net.au/wiki/mobile_phone_frequencies
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_G
[3] http://m2m.gemalto.com/tl_files/cinterion/downloads/datasheets/gemalto_datasheet_PXS8_web.pdf
[4] http://m2m.gemalto.com/tl_files/cinterion/downloads/datasheets/gemalto_datasheet_PLS8_web.pdf

The Wizard of Huz

2013-11-23, 23:27

Will the Neo900 board have support for 4 row keyboard? Or is it possible to add this later with software?

pichlo

2013-11-24, 00:27

Hardly since the plan is to reuse the same housing.

joerg_rw

2013-11-24, 01:02

Or is it possible to add this later with software?
Please elaborate!
/j

Akkumaru

2013-11-24, 01:16

So joerg, found the PoP RAM yet? or decided on one already?

The Wizard of Huz

2013-11-24, 01:48

The board in the feasibility study shows 5 rows. If for example one was to use u different keyboard with 4 rows, use 4 rows from the board from feasibility study, with an altered body (altered sliding mechanism if possible), would that be possible.

joerg_rw

2013-11-24, 03:41

joerg_rw

2013-11-24, 03:57

So joerg, found the PoP RAM yet? or decided on one already?
We're hoping to source the http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/MT46H256M32L4JV-5 IT:B TR/MT46H256M32L4JV-5 IT:B TR-ND/4315331 somewhere (1GByte RAM only)

Akkumaru

2013-11-24, 05:51

We're hoping to source the http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/MT46H256M32L4JV-5 IT:B TR/MT46H256M32L4JV-5 IT:B TR-ND/4315331 somewhere (1GByte RAM only)

Nice :D Good luck on that :)

bretus

2013-11-24, 07:11

I found another link that implies that in 2015 Telstra will change the LTE from 1800MHz to 700MHz [1][2]
Which means it will be after 2015 to be able to have both 3g and LTE according to the PLS8-US specs in Australia

[1] http://telcoantennas.com.au/site/guide-to-mobile-networks

[2] http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/461104/australian_government_misses_1_billion_digital_div idend_auction/

boris_blackmilk

2013-11-24, 07:42

Hello all,

Many thanks to the initiators of this project - I am quite excited, for probably all the reasons you are excited, but also for this reason:

An open source fourth generation cellular Evolved Packet Network, end to end.

I am presently following the OpenLTE project to make an open source eNodeB (LTE base station) on a Linux computer, and an Ettus SDR, most likely a B200 or B210, depending (I'd like a B210, for the 2x2 MIMO, but you pay for it - you can still get a 20MHz/ 100Mbps down Gen 3 carrier out of a non MIMO radio). They already, as of two weeks ago, have a primitive eNodeB application working, providing FDD downlink only at the moment - it'll talk to your phone, but won't listen to it.

Now, I'm not interested in Voice over LTE or Video over LTE, I'll leave that to people who actually like talking on phones. My primary interest in this is long range, high bandwidth cellular data networks - delivering a whole heap of data up to 30km away, in a real time fashion.

With an eNodeB that I have the source code for, and an open source LTE UE (such as the Neo900) I can examine if there are any bottlenecks in the system, and code to the metal if I have to, to get the latency to the lowest humanly possible level. LTE has an over-the-air latency of 1ms, but "common carrier" networks are experiencing up to 70ms latency for data. My data will be QoS enforced, with certain levels of data taking priority in real time due to safety concerns, and yes, the whole network, from real time controller on mobile robot, to the UE, to the eNodeB, to the high bandwidth backhaul, to the servers and backbones themselves, must be designed with only one policy in mind.

Since its totally my network, and I control it, not an unknowable, and unapproachable, telecommunications company, I can make my own QoS rulings, based on what I feel is priority data, and make intelligent contention decisions, based on users per cell, and prioritised data being fed in.

Now, if any of this ever transmitted into an antenna (for the worry warts out there) I'd be breaking every law in the book. I know what a dummy load is, and I know how to use one. I am not going to break any laws, just to prove my point.

However, with even a 2x2 Gen 5 MIMO, you're getting speeds of 300Mbps down. That is incredible.

However, I'm not asking for that in the Neo900, my questions are:

* Will the phone have a modem specifically for Australian bandplans (850MHz HSDPA+, 900/ 1800MHz GSM, 1800MHz LTE - I use Telstra SIMs when I'm not using my TEST SIMs)?
* Will I be able to interrogate the modem for important information that most users would find banal, but would be crucial for wringing out every last little bit of speed out of such an open source network I've described?

Now, I'm behind this project, you have my vote, and eventually, my money will be laid on a table for an upgrade board for two of my three N900s. I like the idea of simply swapping out a motherboard, and you have an upgraded phone, this idea is long overdue. And no, I don't believe in 4K displays on a teeny tiny thing. Sorry Apple, you don't have my vote. I highly suspect what I'm asking will be more than possible, or someone in the community will know how to make it happen. But a confirmation of some sort would be great, and make me lay part of my uni scholarship early next year on the table for the upgrade boards. Then I would wait impatiently until I could upgrade my phone like my desktop, or the Macbook Pro I am rebuilding, newer, faster motherboard to replace the one that has a dead graphics chip, along with 8GB of RAM and 1TB of SSD.

A final thought - to totally misquote:

"Motherf*cker please! My sh*t is GPL!"

Well, it is Custom, right? So its gotta be GPL =)

Long live open source!!!

Shane.

joerg_rw

2013-11-24, 14:47

hello boris_blackmilk,
please check the gemalto site I posted a link to a few posts back when somebody asked about modem supported bands. You even can download the complete manuals and datasheets there (after leightweight registration) - those for the LTE modem are not available yet since it's bleeding edge. But the PHS8-E AT command set pdf has ~450 pages, you may use it to get an idea what the LTE document will look like.

cheers
jOERG

joerg_rw

2013-11-24, 15:20

To give you some insight into our work and the progress we make.
Kommentare (neueste zuerst):

# Von Nikolaus Schaller, Nov 24, 2013:

More observarions:

* LOWER: PCB snaps nicely into snap-fits and cutout between + and - buttons is very good :)
* but mounting holes are not exact enough
* LOWER: mounting holes for USB connector are muchtoo big (radius vs. diameter?)
* LOWER: position of ON-Key appears to be weird compared to button on case, but fits exactly to PCB
* LOWER: Camera hole appears still to be deplaced by 0.1-0.2mm and needs to be drilled in the corners before milling
* LOWER: Pogo-Pins are not well centered where they should be, but should work
* LOWER: pushbuttons appear to fit :)
* UPPER: mounting holes do not fit to the display assembly
* LOWER: SD reader and SIM reader footprint appears to fit :)
LOWER: SIM reader position is very good (SD-card not in final position - needs another PCB)
* LOWER: 3 of the 4 spring contacts of the battery bay metal do not connect to GND because they contact the shield cages on the N900
* LOWER: detector button has wrong footprint (too wide!) - calculation mistake when converting mechanical drawing to footprint coordinates
* LOWER: we might want to find an OTG socket variant from the 047589-0001 that has 2 additional pegs like the 047590-0001 -- but that may not be necessary at all

# Von Joerg Reisenweber, Nov 23, 2013:

sorry of course NOT close ticket since there are several other points in it

# Von Joerg Reisenweber, Nov 23, 2013:

The strange thing under the display connctor is labeled "X2000" in component placement, is not showing up in schematics, and magnetic properties of any kind couldn't be found in it.
I however found a microscopic "2D-barcode" on it which looks like laser-marking. I guess that's the main purpose. We probably can safely ignore it.
Sugestion: close ticket.

# Von Nikolaus Schaller, Nov 23, 2013:

upper board:

* we don't have thought about the (different!) C-springs and contacts
* there is a small "wire" line above the button contacts
following the dome sheet contour (at least partially)
* there appears to be a rectangular piece of metal soldered on a smple GND pad right nead the display connector. It's function isn't clear at all (magnet???)

lower board:

* there should be more clearance around the "hot" ends of the C-springs
* the position of the C-spring between the lockswitch and speaker appears to be wrong
* we have 2 VIAs in 2 pads of the SIM reader - should be avoided

--
Ticket: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/neo900/issues/518/

Some photos of the mech-validation PCBs:
http://neo900.org/photos/neo900/pcb-a0/thumbnails/DSC01783.JPG
http://neo900.org/photos/neo900/pcb-a0/thumbnails/DSC01784.JPG
http://neo900.org/photos/neo900/pcb-a0/thumbnails/DSC01787.JPG
http://neo900.org/photos/neo900/pcb-a0/thumbnails/DSC01788.JPG

More of those (in highres) on the GolDeliCo download site (http://download.goldelico.com/neo900/images/).

/j

qwazix

2013-11-24, 15:40

I still haven't preordered mine, I need to sort out some financials. Is there a deadline?

joerg_rw

2013-11-24, 16:08

There's a virtual deadline that kicks in the very moment we need to preorder something that has 4 months delivery delay. Then we need to order a certain quantity months ahead of time of real official order starting, and we won't be able to source additional later on. So in this very moment, whenever it may or may not happen, we will need to fix the number of devices built on first batch. Every donation/preorder coming in later than that moment is either counting for a possible (but not guaranteed to ever happen) second production run several months later, or it will get rejected. We didn't decide on anything regarding this case yet, but eventually we will have to.

/j

qwazix

2013-11-24, 16:17

ok, please shout a day or two before that freeze happens, I will sincerely try to do it sooner, but just in case.

bazz

2013-11-24, 17:04

Sorry if this has been asked...I couldn't find anything.
Will this work in the US? Can I also donate?

joerg_rw

2013-11-24, 17:54

ok, please shout a day or two before that freeze happens, I will sincerely try to do it sooner, but just in case.
Will do, but I'm afraid this will not be a certain moment but rather a countiguous process, like
"Hello, please send me a quote for XYZ for 200 units"
"Hello, how fast can you deliver 210 units of XYZ?"
"Hello, please send us 215 units XYZ!"

Of course we will try to reckon the amount of "late" orders we will see, and we try to handle our funds in a way so we can source a reasonable amount of "additional" components. But in the end we need the 100EUR per "preorder" minimum, to do such sourcing of components with long lead time, particularly for the complete devices that need N900 spare parts. The window for those preorders will not close before 2014-01-01 anyway.

cheers
jOERG

Akkumaru

2013-11-24, 20:48

The PCB looks good :p

boris_blackmilk

2013-11-24, 21:23

jOERG,

Thanks for the reply!

Some info:

> PLS8-E:
Quad Band LTE: 800/900/1800/2600 MHz, FDD-Band (20,8,3,7)
Tri Band UMTS (WCDMA): 900/1800/2100 MHz,
FDD-Band (8,3,1)
Dual Band GSM/GPRS/EDGE: 900/1800 MHz
> PLS8-US
Quad Band LTE: 700/850/AWS(1700/2100)/1900 MHz,
FDD-Band (17,5,4,2)
Tri Band UMTS (WCDMA): 850AWS(1700/2100)/1900 MHz,
FDD-Band (5,4,2)
Quad Band GSM/GRPS/EDGE: 850/900/1800/1900 MHz

I'd have to say, even though I wouldn't get 850MHz HSDPA+, I'd go with the PLS8-E module. If, however, there were a large concerted rollout of 700MHz LTE in regional areas, I'd go with a PLS8-US module. I don't see Telstra doing that anytime soon though, even though Optus has their eyes on 700MHz licences.

Certainly is interesting times, and we must choose wisely in Australia depending on local conditions when you have the boards ready in respect to what networks we have available to us at that time. In the meantime, I'm going to call in some favours with people I know in Telstra and Optus and ask them about their rollout plans.

We will see! If I get firm information about rollouts, I will report back to you all, for Australian customers.

Thanks again!

freemangordon

2013-11-24, 21:24

@joerg_rw - as we agreed over the IRC:

The mouse I use with my n900 is:
https://www.hama.com/00052395/hama-m2120-bluetooth-optical-mouse

the keyboard:
http://www.apple.com/keyboard/

The Wizard of Huz

2013-11-24, 22:39

Sure, when we alter the body, alter the sliding mechanism, alter the keymat, alter the PCB accordingly, then basically everything is possible. What's NOT possible: that we alter any of the above, except for PCB but that's determined by the other parts.

I know you guys don't alter case.

And I still fail to see how software is related, we don't have T1000 metal that can change the mechanical properties by a command from software side ;-)

I am aware that T1000 metal doesn't exist (unfortunately ;)), but I always thought that on mobile devices the keyboard was integrated in such a way that you can not just change keyboard and plugin a different one like on pc without writing drivers for it.
Guess I was wrong?

The 5-row kbd shown is a prototype for the GTA04 and not intended to get used for Neo900, except for the dome switch springs.
Of course you're free to casemod your Neo900 all the way you like, and connecting whatever kbd you like is no problem, neither hw side nor sw.

And I assume there is some kind of connector for it?
Yes, I am not very technical in these kind of things. Should have chosen Electrical Engineering instead of Aerospace I geuss :D

joerg_rw

2013-11-25, 00:18

maemo is a standard linux in that (as pretty much all) regard. You can smply plug in any standard PC USB keyboard.
Without thorough EE knowledge connecting a kbd the same way the internal hw kbd is connected - via I2C - is probably going to get tough. You need to design such thing on your own. An option to hook up I2C hw extensions will be available anyway, unclear yet if it will be a plug or just solderpads.

/j

boris_blackmilk

2013-11-26, 04:59

Forgive me, but am I the first to mention Google/ Motorola Mobility "Project Ara"?

Don't worry, I'm still getting my Neo900, I don't like Android.

joerg_rw

2013-11-26, 07:00

sorry, this is not related or relevant for Neo900. And you won't see anything hitting reality from it either. Please don't continue on this, it's really OT in this thread. Google for phonebloks

/j

sulu

2013-11-26, 12:02

A question on shipping options:
You said customers can either buy the board alone or a complete device.
Will something in between be possible if you know it in advance?

The reason is that my backup N900s both have German keyboards which I find unbearable. I plan to use one of the cases for the Neo900 board, so if I want to keep my primary N900 the way it is I'll have to find a backlit English keyboard somewhere (preferably two, just in case).
Since you'll have to source all the parts for the complete devices anyway that someone I'm looking for could be you if it doesn't cause you too much logistic overhead.

joerg_rw

2013-11-26, 14:39

Akkumaru

2013-11-26, 15:00

Oh btw make play live board has 1GB RAM but I'm not sure of other specs (pins, required voltage, etc). Maybe you could ask them about it?

joerg_rw

2013-11-26, 15:06

hardly since what we need costs 50% of what they *sell*, and also we don't even have the same ARM core.
Thanks anyway
/j

Alecsandru

2013-11-26, 21:04

by the way ,will the boards be available(without case) ? how much will it costs ? i want to get in this boat (saving money) but i don"t want to trash my n900 , and 700 euro represents a big amount of money.
I don"t think that i"m the only one thinking like that.

rasmarc

2013-11-26, 21:18

will the boards be available(without case) ? how much will it costs ? i want to get in this boat (saving money) but i don"t want to trash my n900

You can choose between board and complete device.

The estimated 500-700EUR are for the board, not for the whole device.

bazz

2013-11-27, 00:09

Sorry to ask this again, but is this something that will work in the USA? And being in the US, is it something I can donate/purchase too providing it does work on US carriers?

kingoddball

2013-11-27, 00:28

Seems like there (could) will be a few different options for the LTE/3G chipset, so it will work in US and the rest of the world, you may need to change your carrier though ;)

joerg_rw

2013-11-27, 11:20

http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Neo900/media/pic+vid/phs8-soldered-1.jpeg
http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Neo900/media/pic+vid/phs8-soldered-2.jpeg
Linux:

root@eeePC:~# lsusb
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 005 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 001 Device 002: ID 0951:1606 Kingston Technology Eee PC 701 SD Card Reader [ENE UB6225]
Bus 001 Device 003: ID eb1a:2761 eMPIA Technology, Inc. EeePC 701 integrated Webcam
root@eeePC:~# lsusb
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 005 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 001 Device 002: ID 0951:1606 Kingston Technology Eee PC 701 SD Card Reader [ENE UB6225]
Bus 001 Device 003: ID eb1a:2761 eMPIA Technology, Inc. EeePC 701 integrated Webcam
Bus 001 Device 004: ID 1e2d:0054
root@eeePC:~# ls -l /dev/ttyAC*
crw-rw---T 1 root dialout 166, 0 Nov 27 11:56 /dev/ttyACM0
root@eeePC:~# cat /dev/ttyACM0

^SYSSTART

^C
root@eeePC:~#

Terminal Program:

^SYSSTART
ati
Cinterion
PHS8-E
REVISION 03.001

OK

Please notice this is a mechnical and modem module evaluation prototype only!

klinglerware

2013-11-27, 15:16

Sorry to ask this again, but is this something that will work in the USA? And being in the US, is it something I can donate/purchase too providing it does work on US carriers?

Yes (assuming that the proposed cellular modules work out) and Yes.

Your best bet would be to purchase with the PLS8-US module.
- Basic telephony and EDGE data should work with either the main GSM networks in the US (T-Mobile USA and AT&T), or any MVNO that utilizes those main networks
- It looks like the required 3G/LTE bands for both T-mobile and AT&T are included
- What is not clear is if non-US 3G that uses the 2100 band will work (not sure if the AWS 2100 band and the "Band 1" 2100 band are compatible, I'm guessing no but I could be wrong).

Also, users from the US have successful donated to the project.

endsormeans

2013-11-27, 17:40

Did I miss some critical update info in my mad excitement or isn't the module with UMTS HSPA with CDMA also still viable with (basically...essentially) global communications acceptability?

Last thing I realllly want is the perfect open device...but only be able to use my device in a predefined area and unable to use it while travelling..... let alone be hostage to telecom giants

klinglerware

2013-11-27, 17:55

Did I miss some critical update info in my mad excitement or isn't the module with cdma also still viable with (basically...essentially) global communications acceptability?

Last thing I realllly want is the perfect open device...but only be able to use my device in a predefined area and unable to use it while travelling..... let alone be hostage to telecom giants

Yes, the "CDMA" module seems like a doable option as it has the main global 3G bands covered.

Curious if the CDMA bands themselves will be usable (e.g., I've never seen "unlocked" phones being used with CDMA telco providers in the US, for example)

endsormeans

2013-11-27, 18:00

Same here in Canada...concerning unlocked phones ...cdma...and telecom giants....I'll have to gaargle around and rout out some answers...

Update: UMTS HSPA with CDMA ...cursory digging so far looks absolutely fine ..from where I'm standing...Almost all our Canadian (monstrously-huge-and beastly) telecom giants seem to have no prob with the module...which is great....the flexibility of that module frees me from a dependancy nightmare ALL Canadians face.
We have one of the best telecommunications networks on the planet....unfortunately pay the highest fees on the planet. The more options for Canadians to not get trapped by service providers and their (planned) limited band "offerings" ....an "either/or" option service wise is not a road I wish to travel down any longer.
If the whole bloody nation new about the neo900 I am sure that 20 million of the 30 million Canadians would be throwing their wallets at the neo900 project.

joerg_rw

2013-11-27, 18:18

Available modem variants (subject to change without prior notice during design evaluation)

PLS8 LTE (2 variants Europe[world] and USA)
>> PLS8-E:
Quad Band LTE: 800/900/1800/2600 MHz, FDD-Band (20,8,3,7)
Tri Band UMTS (WCDMA): 900/1800/2100 MHz,
FDD-Band (8,3,1)
Dual Band GSM/GPRS/EDGE: 900/1800 MHz
>> PLS8-US
Quad Band LTE: 700/850/AWS(1700/2100)/1900 MHz,
FDD-Band (17,5,4,2)
Tri Band UMTS (WCDMA): 850/AWS(1700/2100)/1900 MHz,
FDD-Band (5,4,2) ["/" after 850 added by editor]
Quad Band GSM/GRPS/EDGE: 850/900/1800/1900 MHz
http://m2m.gemalto.com/tl_files/cinterion/downloads/datasheets/gemalto_datasheet_PLS8_web.pdf

PXS8 global 3G
>> Five-Bands UMTS/HSPA+ (WCDMA /FDD)
(800/850/900/1900/2100 MHz)
UMTS / HSPA+, 3GPP release 6 / 7
Rx-Diversity with Equalizer (Type 3i)
Enhanced F-DPCH, DTX, DRX, SCH-IC
>> Quad-Band GSM (850/900/1800/1900 MHz)
GSM / GPRS / EDGE, 3GPP release 99 / 4
Improved SAIC
>> Triple Band CDMA2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cdma2000), Bands: BC0/BC1 &
BC10 subclass 2+3 (800/1900MHz), (http://www.3gpp2.com/Public_html/specs/C.S0057-0_v1.0_020904.pdf) 3GPP2: (http://www.3gpp2.org/) 1xAdvanced (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cdma2000#1X_Advanced),
EV-DO Rev. A (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution-Data_Only), QLIC, Rx-Diversity, Equalizer

BC0: 800MHz, BC1: 1900MHz
BC10, subclass 2+3:
System Designator C, Subclass 2
Mobile 816.000–820.975
Base 861.000–865.975
System Designator D, Subclass 3
Mobile 821.000–823.975
Base 866.000–868.975

http://m2m.gemalto.com/tl_files/cinterion/downloads/datasheets/gemalto_datasheet_PXS8_web.pdf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CDMA2000_networks

Click HERE (http://opennetwork.verizonwireless.com/deviceModuleDetails.aspx?deviceId=796) to see read about PXS8 and Verizon, HERE (http://www.enkom.fi/assets/Uploads/PXS8-PVS8-Multi-Carrier-AN67-V01-29.08.20131.pdf) for docs about AT cmdset to select which of the bands/RAT to use (thanks wentknweqt!)

Sorry we can't offer global LTE, since USA and rest of the world again insisted in perpetuating incompatibility for market protection
PHS8 and PVS8 also available (http://m2m.gemalto.com/products/m2m-advanced.html) on inquiry, though I don't see why anybody would want them.

klinglerware

2013-11-27, 19:03

endsormeans

2013-11-27, 20:23

Yes, thinking about this further, Global 3G might be preferable to "Regionally-Restricted" LTE. HSPA+ has been adequate for me. Hardware limitations of the n900 have bottlenecked performance on fast wi-fi, so who knows how much benefit LTE would really add.

I don't know the answer, but the "best" module could be a tough decision depending on your use case.

As an example take a look at a map of bc or van. isle and the various coloured zones of service-providing access .Yes most of the pop. on the island or the mainland live along the coast and we have A TON of wilderness...but believe me...you'll laugh when you see it
I swear

....using the latest-greatest service if I move right or left 2 feet I swear I'm out of the service area....that coupled with service-providing giants restricting (kind word for choking XD) and herding the end user...I personally don't care at all if the device is "global/flexible" scrawled in yellow crayon on 2 tin cans with frayed string as the conduit (thankfully the neo900 will look...and I'm sure will perform better than the 2 cans)...AS LONG AS I CAN CALL AND RECEIVE, HEAR AND BE UNDERSTOOD CLEARLY that is all that matters....it beats the hell out of having a super-fly faster-than-light service I can only use while standing on my head... halfway up a spruce tree ....on a cliff ....by the ocean....on a clear day....with an unobstructed line of sight :D

boris_blackmilk

2013-11-28, 22:18

Some thoughts:

I am going to be buying a Gemalto PLS8-US bandplan modem, for the fact 700MHz LTE deployment is imminent in my area, I am to confirm with my contacts in the carriers about the validity and expected timeframe of this rollout sometime early next year.

The other item of interest in the -US bandplan modem is access to the 1900MHz band, which I am in negotiations with the regulator here in Australia, the ACMA, for non-common carrier broadcast access to the 1900MHz band as a "spectrum squatter" for use with the OpenLTE project - an open source LTE network end-to-end.

They have not said a flat out "No" yet, their engineering department will get back to me in the New Year. They have indicated co-ordination with the licence holder to the 1900MHz band (but not user of the band in my Local Government Area, hopefully) is needed, and that is up to me to negotiate that co-ordination, they will only name the licence holder, not assist me with those negotiations.

My interest in the Neo900 project is for the open access to the modem - certainly not of its firmware (although if it were leaked like the modem firmware for the GTA02 was, I would count that anonymous person as my personal salvation), but to the command subsystem, and interrogation of the modems status, with is abstracted away in Android, and totally not present in iPhone.

Yes, I like to watch NetMon quite a bit. I'm also quite a bit strange.

My eventual goal with all of the tech is the absolute lowest humanly possible latency bound end to end network for the real time control of mobile robots in a cellular sites footprint. This, as you would be aware, would have many, many applications, and I want this network to be about as self organising as possible - so imbued with a degree of AI.

Anyway, those are some thoughts, certainly, we stand on the cusp of a great moment with the Neo900 and OpenLTE projects...!

Long live open source!

Shane.

joerg_rw

2013-11-28, 22:36

If somebody has a surplus single user license of Eagle Professional (>=5.0) Layout+Schematics(+Autorouter) and was willing to donate that to me, I'd be grateful for sure. :-)

Cheers
jOERG

marbleuser

2013-11-29, 05:18

joerg_rw

2013-11-29, 05:41

What's the story with shielding? I'm nervous as it is with normal nokia phones, and don't like holding them to my ear for very long. Will there be any tests done to measure the effectiveness of any shielding put in place?

Due to identical RF design (we reuse the antennas) the SAR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_absorption_rate) should be pretty much identical to N900.

"REGULATORY APPROVAL" (http://www.phonearena.com/phones/Nokia-N900_id4008/fullspecs) ->SAR

/j

juiceme

2013-11-29, 07:17

What's the story with shielding? I'm nervous as it is with normal nokia phones, and don't like holding them to my ear for very long. Will there be any tests done to measure the effectiveness of any shielding put in place?

Usually (as with all known GSM/3G devices) the antennas are more or less omnidirectional. There might be a few dB's directionality perpendicular to the long axis of the device but it is quite coincidental really.

marbleuser

2013-11-29, 07:24

https://www.linxtechnologies.com/en/support/faq

apparently it 'only' costs $5000 and takes 30 days to get fcc approval. something to consider at least.

marbleuser

2013-11-29, 08:09

needless to say, a quick bit of dividing means this is an extra cost of only €18 ($25) per device on a batch of 200 phones. money that nervous people like me would be very glad to hand over.

sulu

2013-11-29, 09:37

Full transmitter and receiver testing can cost around $5,000, transmitter only around $3,500, and the receiver about $1,500. If testing for other countries, such as Industry Canada or European CE, is desired, then the costs will go up, but will not generally double.Apparently $5000 will not suffice, since the device will not be placed on the US market exclusively (not even primarily) and only considering one market seems discriminatory to me.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but when calculating the costs one should use reasonable start conditions.

drfei

2013-11-29, 09:56

so it begun (http://markmail.org/message/4mawtyyeizlcejss?q=android):

Introducing the Neo900 project (http://neo900.org) - the first true successor for N900

we (the Neo900 team) are currently in the planning phase about a maemo5/fremantle-compatible successor of N900, with N900 look-alike (aka case) and a processor with more grunt and RAM.

This is already beyond the state of vaporware, see www.gta04.org which this will base on.

I.E. the GTA04 exists (350+ working units sold), what we're talking about are slight modification to GTA04 board to make it fit into a
Neo900, with housing, display, digitizer aka touchpanel, cameras etc sourced from the commercial N900 spare parts market. (though our primary target is to provide ready-to-run complete devices, we will also offer an option for you to buy the GTA04-NeoNinehundred board only, instead of the complete Neo900 device, to upgrade any N900 you already may have)
So it wll look like a N900, feel like a N900 and work like a N900, just way faster, thanks to the DM3730 CPU @1GHz and at least 512MB RAM (1GB depending on chip availability) plus maybe a few GB more of fast RAM-based (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1372500#post1372500) "storage" as swap.
And - that's our plan - it will have all the functionality you're used to from N900 plus sturdy USB (that won't fall off the PCB) with full OTG support, all sorts of new nice sensors like gyro and altimeter and compass, and at your choice a GSM/UMTS (3.5G) or LTE (4G) modem (http://www.roundsolutions.com/shop/products/en/Modules-and-accessories/LTE-Module/GTM801-thinnest-LGA-4G-LGA-Module.html) that doesn't break (or when it ever would then you can fix it).
The AV/headset connector will offer new stereo line-in function on top of the usual mono mic and stereo-out and video.
We will add a general purpose expansion interface under that battery lid - funny enough it turns out it's a superset of what Jolla is using on their TOH interface.

Plus the whole device is 100% open, you get all the schematics and links to all the datasheets of the 'free' chips that are used. *), we don't work behind walls.

The project is about the hardware, we can't run a software development department to port maemo to the device. It's up to a community effort (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1372709) to establish this. Two volunteers already hollered: freemangordon whom you all know from CSSU, and FatPhil, an ex_Nokia kernel maintainer :-) Many thanks to both! And I mustn't miss to mention that a lot of other community members also offered to help wherever they can in our newly formed fremantle porting task force. Many thanks to all of you too.

Stay tuned for more to come :-) Please note Dos1's excellent post#5 (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1369348&postcount=5) below!

*)what we we possibly will hand out later on only are the Eagle project files to feed the fab with. We won't hand out the "shopping list" with all the commercial contacts. What's also not available are docs about the powervr graphics core, but device works without using that core. We don't have access to any modem firmware sourcecode or sources for other subsystem firmwares.

cheers
jOERG

PS: I added a public poll, to allow for evaluating if we might reach the minimum of 200 preorders with a target of 700EUR per complete device (just ballpark figures!)

Context Links:
http://www.mwkn.net/2013/36/front.html
https://blogs.fsfe.org/pboddie/?p=430
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91308
http://mobile.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4210413&cid=44840495

some timeline: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1374716
disclaimer: this project is not related to or driven by the maemo community council, nor does it get any support from council or HiFo

Latest news: FUNDRAISER started, see http://neo900.org PLEASE NOTE http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1383775

hello,I'm a user of N900. Recently,I'm concerned about neo900.I niticed that OpenPhoenux-Hard-Software-Workshop 2013 will be held in few days.Will you attend the activity? Is there really the first neo900 partial prototype on it ?Would you mind taking some videos about neo900 for me?via mail ,sending them to my gmail "dufei152@gmail.com"or put up them on neo900.org . Thank you sincerely !

dos1

2013-11-29, 12:49

hello,I'm a user of N900. Recently,I'm concerned about neo900.I niticed that OpenPhoenux-Hard-Software-Workshop 2013 will be held in few days.Will you attend the activity? Is there really the first neo900 partial prototype on it ?Would you mind taking some videos about neo900 for me?via mail ,sending them to my gmail "dufei152@gmail.com"or put up them on neo900.org . Thank you sincerely !

Yes - first "mechanical evaluation" boards (without CPU etc. yet, but with modem and fitting in N900 case) will be showcased on Saturday 16:45 GMT+1. Nikolaus and Joerg will be there, and a livestream is planned to be available (as well as recordings to watch after).

This more detailed info will be added to neo900.org in few hours and of course photos and videos from OHSW will also be added there :)

marbleuser

2013-11-29, 13:01

Apparently $5000 will not suffice, since the device will not be placed on the US market exclusively (not even primarily) and only considering one market seems discriminatory to me.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but when calculating the costs one should use reasonable start conditions.

I'm talking about getting it verified safe for human consumption by an independent 3rd party somewhere in the world for safety sake. if it's cheaper to do this for/in the eu, then do that. If it's cheaper to do it for one country in the eu, do that.

joerg_rw

2013-11-29, 13:29

The modem is already certified. And the antenna is also cerified. I don't see any use in doing a quite expensive cert for both again (btw 5000$ will definitely not suffice, it's rather 4 times as much, maybe more, incl. all procedures and action to get accomplished). What you're asking is like asking for a CE cert for the particular combination of an incandescent bulb (already type approved CE) in a particular desk lamp (also already CE approved), just because we screwed that new bulb into the lamp. Or like requesting a new FCC cert for an USB UMTS stick plugged in to your laptop - which is basically exactly what we do.
And btw Linx is selling RF modules (e.g. for ISM radios, remote controls, etc pp) Those are of course NOT precertified by FCC or other authorities. PHONE modules OTOH of course are usually fuly type approved. So the whole Linx reasoning about FCC and what it costs etc is really not applying here. Approval of GSM and similar technology transmitters is WAY more complex and expensive than for simple RF-modules. But luckily you can see in the docs that the cinterion modules ARE approved.

A VERIFICATION of SAFETY for humans is something that scientists and pseudo-scientists are working on since I guess 30 years now, and so far no evidence has been found and commonly accepted as true, for or against any harm done by GSM RF. WE definitely can't do that, and won't try to. However if you're feeling concerned about hazardous radiation from mobile phones, I suggest you don't use Neo900, it is exactly as bad (or not bad) as any other phone. The differences are negligible.

For the general safety of the device, not regarding SAR, there's the CE cert which we of course will get for Neo900.

/j

l4m3rx

2013-11-29, 14:57

Yes - first "mechanical evaluation" boards (without CPU etc. yet, but with modem and fitting in N900 case) will be showcased on Saturday 16:45 GMT+1. Nikolaus and Joerg will be there, and a livestream is planned to be available (as well as recordings to watch after).

This more detailed info will be added to neo900.org in few hours and of course photos and videos from OHSW will also be added there :)

Will there be live stream /or downloadable videos/ from OHSW?

dos1

2013-11-29, 15:00

Will there be live stream /or downloadable videos/ from OHSW?

Probably both.

marbleuser

2013-11-29, 15:28

joerg_rw

2013-11-29, 17:06

Sorry, I'm not doing this the first time, and I know which certs our product needs and which it already has - see my several posts above. And I also know you can't get away with 5000USD to get a proper FCC cert for cell phone, but we don't need that since WE ALREADY HAVE IT. Heck, PXS8 even has Verizon and Sprint approval, and all offered modems are FCC (as well as other authorities worldwide) type approved
Like all Cinterion products, the PLS8 comes with full type approval (FTA) and is certified by the largest global network operators. (http://m2m.gemalto.com/products/m2m-advanced/broadband/pls8.html)
And who said "linux"? You are referring to info by a RF-module manufacturer (NOT phone module!) that are not applicable for our situation, we're not building a walkietalkie or a remote control. And certification means "get a stamp of CE or FCC" or whatever else are those entities out there to cert. Honestly, sorry we can't deliver what you're asking for. To make it easier for you: STAY AWAY FROM Neo900! IT EMITS DANGEROUS RADIO WAVES!

/j (who suddenly feels like an arms dealer. We're dealing ARMs, not arms!)

marbleuser

2013-11-29, 21:50

Sorry, I'm not doing this the first time, and I know which certs our product needs and which it already has - see my several posts above. And I also know you can't get away with 5000USD to get a proper FCC cert, but we don't need that since WE ALREADY HAVE IT. Heck, PXS8 even has Verizon and Sprint approval, and all offered modems are FCC (as well as other authorities worldwide) type approved

And who said "linux"? And certification means "get a stamp of CE or FCC" or whatever else are those entities out there to cert. Honestly, sorry we can't deliver what you're asking for. To make it easier for you: STAY AWAY FROM Neo900! IT EMITS DANGEROUS RADIO WAVES!

/j (who suddenly feels like an arms dealer. We're dealing ARMs, not arms!)

Take it easy! Without FCC approval or equivalent for the device as a whole and nothing but your capitalised legal disclaimer warning us to stay away, in the middle of a misleading post ('we have fcc approval',etc) I don't feel warm and fuzzy any more. So, I'm out.

joerg_rw

2013-11-29, 21:57

Not "warning US" but "warning ME" - and no, the only misleading thing here is your rant and your link to Linx, a manufacturer of (unapproved!) RF-modules who doesn't offer *any* phone module. I gave proper citations and links so everybody who understands how a transmitter works *) can check what I said.

*) we're attaching a commercially tested and approved antenna to an approved transmitter, something you been able to do a few years back with every arbitrary mobile phone since back when they had antenna receptacles to connect e.g. a car antenna. And you were not obliged to send in your car incl mobile phone and antenna to the FCC to get an approval. And btw afaik FCC doesn't care about SAR at all. What they check though is your transmitter calibration to make sure you're not exceeding the max RF power as defined by GSM et al specs. The cinterion products of course passed that test.

For your convenience I repeat to link you there:APPROVALS
>> R&TTE, FCC, GCF, PTCRB, UL, IC, CE
>> AT&T, Telstra and other local approvals and provider
certifications (PHS8-P)
>> NTT DoCoMo and other local approvals (PHS8-J)
>> SK Telecom and other local approvals (PHS8-K)
http://m2m.gemalto.com/tl_files/cinterion/downloads/datasheets/gemalto_datasheet_PHS8_web.pdf

wolke

2013-11-29, 21:59

badges! i don't have to show you any stinking badges!

wolke

2013-11-29, 22:02

unbeknownst to most electronics users, valid FCC stamps on electronic devices actually absorb electromagnetic radiation, but only the harmful death rays.

joerg_rw

2013-11-30, 10:22

OHSW live stream:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP_U91ipVWsF_2EiG3s6BKA Hit F5 frequently to catch any new livestream starting! :-S
Audio has some problems initially, but they hope to fix it and it gets better to the end.
Germn/English

king Ralphred

2013-11-30, 11:19

OHSW live stream:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP_U91ipVWsF_2EiG3s6BKA
Audio has some problems initially, but they hope to fix it and it gets better to the end.
Germn/English

What time are you doing your presentation?

nokiabot

2013-11-30, 11:52

not available in mobile watch later in dextop:( i assume thats the whole event i would like a downloadable stripped video of our part:)

dos1

2013-11-30, 12:01

What time are you doing your presentation?

16:45 - 17:15 GMT+1, so 3 hours and 45 minutes left :)

not available in mobile watch later in dextop:( i assume thats the whole event i would like a downloadable stripped video of our part:)

All recording will just stay on the same channel.

joerg_rw

2013-11-30, 12:01

What time are you doing your presentation?

the Neo900 presentation is starting 15:45 UTC. Nikolaus will hold it in English language.
See http://ohsw.de/agenda_2013.html

All livestreams will be available as recorded youtube videos a few minutes after they are finished.

Again, for those who might have been mistaken: this is a presentation of the first mech evaluation proto! It's nice that it actually has some electrically working parts on it already, namely modem. Alas the modem type with audio arrived too late yesterday to get the soldering done til today, so no voice calls will get shown.
/j.

dos1

2013-11-30, 15:40

Neo900 OHSW livestream starts in few minutes! See the first mechanical evaluation boards and some modem magic in the first, early hardware piece coming from our project :)

Watch it on YouTube: http://neo900.org/ohsw2013

Update: And it's alive!

joerg_rw

2013-11-30, 17:33

the slides: http://www.openphoenux.org/ohsw2013/
Many Thanks to Nikolaus for this awesome presentation! :)

sulu

2013-11-30, 21:11

I just learned from the presentation video that the Neo900 will be about 2mm thicker than the N900 due to the two-board approach.

Maybe it has been mentioned before and I just missed it, but it would be nice to communicate that detail in a prominent place (e.g. neo900.org FAQ and/or specs), since that questions the compatibility of some N900 accessories like carrying cases.
I use the CP-321 leather sleeve and I'm somehow optimistic that it can handle those additional 2mm*, but others might prefer less flexible cases.

Just for clarification:
Those who only order the board(s) will still get the 2mm case adapter and the longer screws, right?

*) Next week I will try that with one of my spare N900, spare (therefore still tight) CP-321 and a piece of cardboard.

joerg_rw

2013-11-30, 21:56

IJust for clarification:
Those who only order the board(s) will still get the 2mm case adapter and the longer screws, right?
Yes, the screws and the extended kbd frame.
We will find a place to mention the additional 2mm on neo900.org. Thanks for pointing us at that missing detail, sorry for the communication mishap.

cheers
jOERG

PS: theoretically we could take away 1.3mm from battery cover by removing the cam door bump. This would reduce the additional height to half. Of course we (GolDeliCo) won't do that. You however might ponder that.

dos1

2013-12-01, 13:13

In case someone missed all this stuff from posts in this thread, here you have nice summary of recent development: http://neo900.org/news-0005-phase-i-results-ohsw-showcase :)

nokiabot

2013-12-01, 13:55

i watched the video half other half tonight:D abit hard to get the acents though :

dos1

2013-12-01, 14:14

http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1ru69c/openphoenux_neo900_phase_i_results_ohsw_showcase/

Please spread the word however you can! :)

boris_blackmilk

2013-12-01, 23:02

I ain't watched the video, but I've had a look at the photos - very good work everyone! One month from start of idea to a prototype board, I've not seen even a big company turn out a device so fast in my life! Makes me glad my heart and soul is behind the OSHW community.

I cannot wait for this board to upgrade my N900s. Of course I must, but there is uncontainable excitement there, this is really looking the goods guys!

Once again, well done, and I can't wait to see what is in store for us all!

Shane.

jalyst

2013-12-02, 08:10

This has been going a lot longer than one mth all up, but impressive progress, still far from fully polished though, I'll be buying a least one board if I can spare the $.

bretus

2013-12-02, 10:48

joerg_rw

2013-12-02, 10:54

Hi
I'm wanting to acquire just the internals for the neo 900 for maybe 1 or 2 n900's
If i make a 200euro's donation will that go towards the purchase of 1 or 2 neo 900's?
Do in need to split the payment in order to secure 2 neo900's? Depending on how they turn out i may only want one. .
And is the paypal link working yet?
Please use http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142, since this thread is about maemo infra funding, not about Neo900.
For "preordering" two devices you better do two donations a 100EUR.
Sorry, afaik we don't have a way to accept paypal - maybe dos1 knows better details.

Cheers
jOERG

There is no paypal link
cheers
jOERG

bretus

2013-12-02, 11:01

There is no paypal link
cheers
jOERG

Hi
I clicked on the link in your answer and this is where it brought me.

dos1

2013-12-02, 11:58

This has been going a lot longer than one mth all up, but impressive progress, still far from fully polished though, I'll be buying a least one board if I can spare the $.

Around two months overall, together with idea conception, checking the interest etc., but one month after fundraiser started (and also around one month aftrr the fundraiser reached phase I :)). So technically mechanical evaluation work started when we got 5000 EUR and now we presented first results to the public (and to TMO even earlier :D)

taixzo

2013-12-02, 12:20

So, if I understand correctly from the video, there are two circuit boards, one with the CPU and one with the modem? How do they connect? Would the modem board be swappable (e.g. could I have one modem board for the U.S. and one for Europe, and put the necessary one in)?

jalyst

2013-12-02, 12:25

Around two months overall, together with idea conception, checking the interest etc., but one month after fundraiser started (and also around one month aftrr the fundraiser reached phase I :)). So technically mechanical evaluation work started when we got 5000 EUR and now we presented first results to the public (and to TMO even earlier :D)

I've got from 22/8 till now (well, till a few days ago) anyway, still good progress, long way to go ofc.

dos1

2013-12-02, 12:28

I've got from 22/8 till now (well, till a few days ago) anyway, still good progress, long way to go ofc.

Three then. How time flies :) I could swear it was only two months! :D But with fundraiser duration I'm still right, just rechecked! ;)

jalyst

2013-12-02, 12:43

It really depends on what you consider the cut-off point to be, really there shouldn't be any cut-off point, yet.

dos1

2013-12-02, 14:06

Phase 4 completed!

We're already at 200 devices, woohoo! Thanks to S. M. who made 200th donation with >= 100 EUR :)

So...

Phase 5 starts!

Can we reach 1000? :D

It really depends on what you consider the cut-off point to be, really there shouldn't be any cut-off point, yet.

And there's no "cut-off point" yet, the only one was rather psychological one set by Joerg to reach 25k EUR and 200 devices till the end of the year. Both are accomplished, so everyone willing to jump in (so maybe we reach that 1000, making 1GB RAM almost a no-brainer!) will be able to do that until we're deep into sourcing and ordering the production :)

taixzo

2013-12-02, 14:26

Phase 5 starts!

Can we reach 1000? :D

I am hoping to pre-order one as soon as my funds open up a bit. I really want this project to succeed!

fw190

2013-12-02, 15:33

And there's no "cut-off point" yet, the only one was rather psychological one set by Joerg to reach 25k EUR and 200 devices till the end of the year. Both are accomplished, so everyone willing to jump in (so maybe we reach that 1000, making 1GB RAM almost a no-brainer!) will be able to do that until we're deep into sourcing and ordering the production :)

Now this gives hope that I can to jump the ship!

wicket

2013-12-02, 16:37

Phase 5 starts!

Can we reach 1000? :D

If you're going to achieve this you need as much publicity as possible. I just submitted a story to Slashdot (http://slashdot.org/submission/3160237/neo900-hacker-phone-reaches-minimum-number-of-pre-orders-for-production). Let's get this modded up!

dos1

2013-12-02, 22:23

If you're going to achieve this you need as much publicity as possible. I just submitted a story to Slashdot (http://slashdot.org/submission/3160237/neo900-hacker-phone-reaches-minimum-number-of-pre-orders-for-production). Let's get this modded up!

Huge thanks! Seems to be gaining popularity, already orange and high on http://slashdot.org/popular

Everyone please help if you haven't yet! :)

------
Woohoo we're there! http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/13/12/02/2246227/neo900-hacker-phone-reaches-minimum-number-of-pre-orders-for-production :)

jonwil

2013-12-03, 02:12

So what audio chip has been picked for the Neo900? Same tlv320aic34 as N900?

joerg_rw

2013-12-03, 02:15

So what audio chip has been picked for the Neo900? Same tlv320aic34 as N900?
Yes :-)
cheers
/j

boris_blackmilk

2013-12-03, 03:27

Hey guys,

I have problems charging my N900 off a 12VDC to 5VDC USB adapter. Its supplying 1A, but I have a 500mA plug, and it too doesn't want to charge the N900.

Charging my N900 off a 12VDC source, such as a car battery, is crucial to me, and it looks like the N900 doesn't want to play ball. My Macbook will charge it, but at something like 350mA, which is pitiful, especially if the N900 is in PC Suite mode supplying internet over the USB - I'm using more power than I'm supplying.

What provisions have been made in the Neo900 to make sure it'll charge off any 5VDC source you throw at it, regardless of origin (so, power brick, laptop/ PC, or cigarette lighter plug), because I really don't want to be saddled with a phone that rejects half the power sources I have in the house for some odd reason. I am getting an extended 18Ah LiPo extended battery pack for the Macbook, but I am also getting a VAIO Duo 11 with extended "sheet" battery, and it has a nice over powered (so 1A) USB3.0 charger port (as well as supplying USB data). I will probably use the VAIO for six hour train trips from now on, when I get the bloody thing, and leave the Macbook at home. Don't worry folks, I'm running latest Ubuntu on it, I really can't stand Windows =P

Thanks for the help guys!

Shane.

kingoddball

2013-12-03, 03:37

Never seen that problem... I have used that (that particular) phone on a car charger, but it was just a standard car adapter from the service station.

pichlo

2013-12-03, 07:04

1. What does this have to do with Neo900? Please learn to observe the thread's topic. Posting your questions in random threads is generally frown upon.

2. Check your car charger's USB connector. I have three car chargers. All of them work but the connection is rather temperamental. So far I had the best results with the cheapest one from Poundland. which has a USB A female connector instead of a cable sticking out, coupled with a cable that I know works on a PC.

joerg_rw

2013-12-03, 07:34

sulu

2013-12-03, 09:25

But the dome sheet is difﬁcult to reuse if peeled off the PCB.Why is that?
Is there some adhesive that's hard to replace or is the dome sheet easily damaged in the process? Or is there some other problem?

Here at 1:52 [1] it looks not trivial but quite doable to remove the dome sheet. However the next slide in the video says: "Do not use the domesheet again."
I'd like to understand the reason.

Of course reassembly might be a completely different story than disassembly which is why I usually don't like disassembly guides that end by simply stating: "to reassemble just follow these steps in reverse order."

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA82LYF64es

joerg_rw

2013-12-03, 09:37

@sulu
Errr, YES. ;)
All you said.

mr_jrt

2013-12-03, 12:38

For Neo900 we will provide battery charging pads under the back cover (when we can find a way to do so), and we will take care to make them as tolerant to crappy supply as reasonably possible.
For USB we need to follow the common USB2.0 & charging_amendment specs, and we will probably use the same detection scheme like N900 (D+/- short), since it's the simplest (for user to handle) of the 3 variants for fastcharger detection that the USB specs define (the other two involve resistors to get soldered to the plug, sth you don't want to do). Anyway we will take care that charging is controllable by software just like it is on N900.
Please check other threads in this forum about fastcharger detection and D+/-_short

/j

Throwing in my tuppence for what it's worth, my N900 gives me the most grief when dealing with modern chargers designed for the resistor-style phones everyone has now. Basically, it just doesn't charge unless I use a really dumb charger, even when I cut the data lines completely. If the Neo900 could be a little more..."robust" it would be much appreciated! I suspect the problem is with the "play dead" state of the phone, as most decent chargers alter their state based upon what's plugged in...and so does the N900, so they cancel each other out once the N900 boots past the hardware charging state. Every other device I have works with my chargers just fine...

...but yeah, if the Neo900 could be more robust, that'd be great :D

sulu

2013-12-03, 12:57

theonelaw

2013-12-03, 14:40

jonwil---------
Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
So what audio chip has been picked for the Neo900? Same tlv320aic34 as N900?
Yes :-)
cheers
/j

This audio chip appears to be able to record 24bit data
off of four inputs if I read the spec sheet right.

Maybe I need more coffee,
but maybe someone out there knows if it can ?

If so - I would assume (don't get distracted here)
we would have a normal stereo/mic jack for line input
and have an embedded mic (1 or 2 ?)
for the audio input ?

just curious,
it gives me some ideas for later on down the road....

joerg_rw

2013-12-03, 16:11

I'm pretty sure you already know this, gerry-mobilfunk.de seems to have domesheets. [1]
I have no idea what happens if you input a 3- or 4-digit number into the quantity field. I'd like to see Gerry's/Thomas' face though. ;)

Maybe he knows some secret supplier. At least asking him wouldn't hurt.

[1] http://www.gerry-mobilfunk.de/31360.html

the article is usually available from stock in qty of 3 - 8 max. We don't have info about amount available from Nokia

Yes, I already know Gerry-mobilfunk ;)

joerg_rw

2013-12-03, 16:14

This audio chip appears to be able to record 24bit data
off of four inputs if I read the spec sheet right.

Maybe I need more coffee,
but maybe someone out there knows if it can ?

If so - I would assume (don't get distracted here)
we would have a normal stereo/mic jack for line input
and have an embedded mic (1 or 2 ?)
for the audio input ?

just curious,
it gives me some ideas for later on down the road....

That's the plan. I don't know off top of my head if the codec can do 24bit.

boris_blackmilk

2013-12-04, 00:45

Perhaps this is a little more on topic for the discussion - do we have any idea of power consumption while providing internet over hotspot (so 4G and wifi interfaces active) in terms of what I would need to provide to the phone in order to keep it charged? I'm not asking for real, hard figures yet, I'm just looking for a consensus in terms of whats expected.

In relation to the previous "off topic" post (my apologies, I've owned an N900 for about a month - the idiosyncrasies are still being worked out on my end, my PwnPhone firmwares wifi is botched, meaning I have to hardline the USB for internet, but thats ok, cause I've gotta keep it charged) the VAIO Duo I'll be getting has the 1A USB3.0 charge port, specifically for fast charging devices like mobile phones. If power consumption of the Neo900 while in hotspot mode could be expected near that 1A, I'll be mighty happy, that'll mean I can run my phone indefinitely off the laptops extended battery - perfect for six hours worth of train trips, which I do regularly, where the old Macbook Air's battery dies after two hours (go figure).

It is a fact that for almost two hours of those six on the train, I don't have cellular reception, but thats a minor side issue I'll sort out with the Government Railways one day... *GSM-R tsk tsk*

So, I hope this is a little more on topic - again my apologies, I wasn't aware my issue had been debated to death, although I should've expected a software patch for it...

Many thanks!

biketool

2013-12-04, 05:34

There is a thread for the N9 which they are discussing modified bluez for BLE the low power bluetooth protocol which can be used with gadgets which can run for months on a battery or charge. Hoping we can use their software work on Neo900 BLE bluetooth 4 hw. http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=85118&page=4

biketool

2013-12-04, 05:37

,snip>
For USB we need to follow the common USB2.0 & charging_amendment specs, and we will probably use the same detection scheme like N900 (D+/- short)<snip>
/j

Maybe a USB mode switch like we use for host mode, normally USB compatible but you can switch it to tolerant of un-shorted power supply, perhaps even set the amp draw

joerg_rw

2013-12-04, 09:33

Maybe a USB mode switch like we use for host mode, normally USB compatible but you can switch it to tolerant of un-shorted power supply, perhaps even set the amp draw

I'd be really surprised when nobody built such thing yet, maybe based on charge21.sh

Estel

2013-12-04, 16:35

Why is that?
Is there some adhesive that's hard to replace or is the dome sheet easily damaged in the process? Or is there some other problem?

Here at 1:52 [1] it looks not trivial but quite doable to remove the dome sheet. However the next slide in the video says: "Do not use the domesheet again."
I'd like to understand the reason.

I had to remove (and replace back again) keyboard domesheet on few of my N900's for various reasons, and it went without problems. It just require some basic care* to not damage it during unsticking, and some focus to allign it back again when ready to stick (there are some "nav points" - holes etc - that make alligment easier), but it is perfeclty doable. Glue could get non-sticky if repeatedly removed and inserted few times in row, but for single re-attachement, it shouldn't pose major problems, especially for Neo900 "target" buyers type.

/Estel

*the same care as with unsticking any should-be-easy-to-remove sticker from RTV/AGD

nokiabot

2013-12-04, 17:08

joerg_rw

2013-12-04, 17:31

http://www.flexiswitch.com/12.html

qwazix

2013-12-04, 18:07

Maybe a stupid idea but here it is: I've seen some demos of water-repellent solutions that you dunk (spray with?) your electronics in and it makes them water-resistant.

Any chance?

kingoddball

2013-12-04, 21:26

So for keyboard you decided on domesheets?
What happened to the idea of having the buttons directly on the mobo?

dos1

2013-12-04, 21:39

So for keyboard you decided on domesheets?
What happened to the idea of having the buttons directly on the mobo?

Wouldn't that kill (or at least "damage") the illumination?

kingoddball

2013-12-04, 22:51

joerg_rw

2013-12-04, 22:59

Aha! Yes!
Thanks! Speaking of illumination - What are the odds on user changeable LED's? RGB! I'd like nice bright greeeeeeen LED's under the KB...

I'm sure this will go nowhere.. But anyhow! Thanks!

I wonder if it's possible to change the LED! :D

Of course it's possible and as simple as it possibly gets to change the LEDs.
But maybe - just maybe - we can do a special build for you, swapping the white LEDs for green ones. You know we build to custom. :)

cheers
jOERG

kingoddball

2013-12-04, 23:00

Maaaaate! Seems like we could be friends! :)

Thanks! (and I probably will take you up on that offer!)

peterleinchen

2013-12-04, 23:24

:D

Then what about nice fancy multi-coloured keyboards? ;)
I think I have seen such thing once upon a time ...

pichlo

2013-12-04, 23:27

Double rainbow (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQSNhk5ICTI) keyboard!

joerg_rw

2013-12-04, 23:30

we only got 6 outputs on our LED controller, to control 6 kbd LEDs. And we can't really connect 3 of those LEDs in parallel or in series, doesn't work electrically. So, sorry, but that would mean severe additional cost on BOM and layout, and I doubt you want to pay for that.

[edit, answering next post] almost anticipated I've been too fuzzy: a RGB LED is basically 3 LEDs in one case, with 4 instead of 2 pins. We got:
a) SIX KBD-LEDs (all needed for light distribution)
b) SIX LED-controller outputs
6 RGB-LEDs would need 18 controller outputs which we don't have, we'd need TWO additional LP5523 to do this.
And then we have the problem of the RGB LEDs themselves: formfactor of those KBD-LEDs is 0402 (afaik), and we need to mount them sideways (to emit light direction kbd), which you can do with a two-pin 0402 but for sure not with a 4-pin (I guess there's no such thing like 4-pin 0402 at all), unless the RGB-LED component is made to shine sideways by default - and isn't larger than 0402 or whatever the current size of KBD-LED. So nope, we probably CANNOT do this.

/j

pichlo

2013-12-04, 23:38

So, at the cost of not being able to control all 6 LEDs independently, it is possible to use RGB LEDs.

kingoddball

2013-12-05, 03:45

Daughter Boards/Breakout Boards:
Are you willing to make a simple breakout board to sell?

What I am thinking:

Ribbon cable to slide to under the battery to the expansion pins (Other Half type connection you mentioned), connect to a board which can sit on top of the battery with an ATMEGA chip with blank pin-out (through holes from ATMEGA) that we can solder whatever want onto?
Will need TTL serial.

Seems easy? Maybe?

I'm happy to design a 3D printable case to accommodate for the daughter board - Happy to print for people too! :)

I would like to control some hardware via the Neo900 - Will be fun and this seems like a cheaper and easier option than annoy you/devs about adding random chips.

I'd love some hardware expandability via an AT using the expansion port - Doesn't seem hard, considering how much work you have put into the Neo900 board - This is childs play for you guys! :)

Make us geeks happy! (happier??)

Edit: Not that I am ungreatful for the Neo900 - I just think having a never ending hardware addon board!! YEAH!!
I would like to add some 433Mhz componets and control my light switches/power points.

Edit: A similar hardware combination already exists which I use regularly - NinjaBlock.
A8 Chip with an Arduino on top.

http://ninjablocks.com/collections/all/products/ninja-shield-for-beaglebone-black

I really think the idea/add-on would be GREAT!
Infinite expansion ;)

joerg_rw

2013-12-05, 04:36

Daughter Boards/Breakout Boards:
Are you willing to make a simple breakout board to sell?

What I am thinking:

Ribbon cable to slide to under the battery to the expansion pins (Other Half type connection you mentioned), ...I already planned to do something similar to this FPC (aka "ribbon cable") eventually. It didn't occur to me to put a chip (ATmega) on it. Sounds like a nice idea, yes.

Thanks!
/j

Estel

2013-12-05, 18:08

domesheets must be sourced as if once removed it can be perfectly reused but some air leaks or less sticky regions will be there and in the long run poses problems in keypresses mostly due to a layer of something formed by oxydation or sometimes slight misplacements change the keypress feel diffrent for others :).

Keyboard domesheet is far from air-tight, and there is already quite a much air between bendable metal plates (used to "press" key) and contact pads on motherboard. This doesn't sounds like valid concern for me. I also think, that people afraid to disassembly N900 wouldn't be purchasing board-only, aiming at fully assembled unit, instead (which means sourcing domesheets by Neo900 folks, anyway).

/Estel

Alecsandru

2013-12-05, 21:45

i have a question : can you run fremantle on omap4 , sgx blobs?

viktor80

2013-12-06, 10:41

endsormeans

2013-12-06, 20:08

If the external keyboard drains too much power, its an alternative to use it with an usb hub that has its own power source. I even found a topic somewhere, where someone made a tablet stand, which charged the tablet and functioned at the same time as self-powered usb hub for the otg stuff like keyboard, mouse, external hard drive etc.

I do remem. seeing the topic too...I just can't remem. where....can't find it either...did find the great topic for the n800 laptop adapter...know that one...but that isn't it....hmm ...If you find it ....post a link to it ..I'd like to go over it again.

kingoddball

2013-12-06, 23:15

i have a question : can you run fremantle on omap4 , sgx blobs?

Yep.
Hard to do (I failed twice).

http://www.omappedia.com/wiki/Maemo_Getting_Started

biketool

2013-12-07, 18:08

I know I mentioned it in this thread a while back re: shoehorning a pager chip into the neo900
I sent the idea past Richard Stallman and he sounds supportive to the point that he might begin carrying a mobile phone,(massive PR coup) he has not carryed one so far on principle. I am going to send him a link to this thread.

biketool

2013-12-07, 18:13

joerg_rw

2013-12-07, 18:27

Is the modem chip designed so that the nothing can alter the radio modem's own software? This program should not be updatable.
This because any NSA, KGB, New Zelander snoop force, or LAPD contractor with the right information from the manufacturer could upload a nasty custom modem firmware to do bad stuff even if the modem can't force its way with the main processor. Is there a way to checksum the modem firmware every time we boot?
No, we do better than this - read below why we think so
.
We will provide modem firmware update via USERLAND flasher program, and as you can conclude form this there is no way any "NSA, KGB, New Zelander snoop force, or LAPD contractor" could run such flasher program on Linux APE (aka the linux computer system) without user's permission.
So we disagree with Mr. Stallman here, we think we overfulfill the rationale behind his requirement, and we won't change our design/modem-choice to restrict user's freedom to update modem firmware, just to comply with FSF/Stallman.

BTW NO modem "chip" will ever be designed the way Stallman demands, since modem firmware generally lives in flash which always has some means to get altered, whether via JTAG or UART/USB or even OTA. It's up to careful evaluation by the hw designers of the complete system to make sure nobody will unsolicitedly change the modem firmware in a way so it does stuff we don't want it to do while the user has no idea about the fact that it does. Neo900, while not allowing checksum over modem firmware (we have no read access, modem is too separated for this), will implement other hw means to tightly monitor and restrict what modem can do and actually does - up to the level of tracing every power-up/-down/reboot, checking power consumption, blocking GPS antenna thus defeating any unsolicited GPS usage, and even detecting every single RF transmission the modem does.

Bottom line: Mr Stallman demands a modem firmware fixed in ROM, trusting in the genuine firmware not already being rogue - while Neo900 offers means to supervise the modem so it can't do any nasty without "us" noticing that and concluding that the firmware isn't doing what it's supposed to do.

cheers
jOERG

biketool

2013-12-07, 18:38

BTW that was my very goofy paraphrase of what RMS had written, I think his largest concern was OTA reprogramming but I cant speak for him, I did invite him to this thread. Otherwise I think the Neo900 met his listed criteria as long as it can work without blobs in one of the possible OSs.

He liked the idea of an intergrated pager receiver for incoming contact and I bet that can be done through the plug-in hobby interface, think how small the board was in the old Motorola belt pagers in the late 80s.

dos1

2013-12-07, 18:47

No, we will provide modem firmware update via USERLAND flasher program, and as you can conclude form this there is no way any "NSA, KGB, New Zelander snoop force, or LAPD contractor" could run such flasher program on Linux APE (aka the linux computer system) without user's permission.
So we disagree with Mr. Stallman here and we won't change our design/modem-choice to restrict user's freedom to update modem firmware, just to comply with FSF/Stallman.

BTW NO modem "chip" will ever be designed the way Stallman demands, since modem firmware generally lives in flash which always has some means to get altered, whether via JTAG or UART/USB or even OTA. It's up to careful evaluation by the hw designers of the complete system to make sure nobody will unsolicitedly change the modem firmware in a way so it does stuff we don't want it to do while the user has no idea about the fact that it does. Neo900, while not allowing checksum over modem firmware (we have no read access), will implement other hw means to tightly momitor and restrict what modem can do - up to the level of tracing every power-up/down and even every single RF transmission the modem does.

cheers
jOERG

In other words, we believe that the modem should be seen as a black box and should be threated as one by hw designers, sw developers and users. Trusting a black box without any control is insane regardless of upgrade possibilities (the firmware may contain malware right from the very beginning, how would you know?), and with such control any bad sides of possibility to upgrade don't matter anymore.

Anyway, while I understand and fully respect Richard Stallman and his concerns, IMHO it's better to provide the freedom to upgrade the firmware to the user. It gives some small hope for some free replacement in the future, even if it's insanely hard to do due to deep "tivoisation" of practically any modem available these days (not that it would be possible to use it under most of legal regulations anyway :( but one still can come up with some legitimate and legal lab usecases). If every phone would work that way we wouldn't have now projects like OsmocomBB (http://bb.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/Software/GettingStarted), which works for instance on upgradable GSM module of Openmoko Neo Freerunner.

(for a long time there was only non-free flasher available for Calypso, but recently some REd one popped up, so it's now possible to reflash Freerunner modem with free firmware using free flasher. It wouldn't be possible at all if Freerunner would comply to FSF rules since its release)

joerg_rw

2013-12-08, 07:10

Multi-touch (ok 2-touch) anybody? :) With rotate and pinch.
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=CRTOUCH&nodeId=0112698268

hauslandbibliothek

2013-12-08, 09:26

Multi-touch (ok 2-touch) anybody? :) With rotate and pinch.
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=CRTOUCH&nodeId=0112698268

sounds nice :)

qwazix

2013-12-08, 10:24

It sounds nice, yes. It also has touch to wake and pressure detection.

On other news I just preordered mine. Thanks!

Akkumaru

2013-12-08, 11:49

Nice touch it would be! (From Yoda :D) Now I can at least prove to some of my friends that it can do multitouch :P And much more than their iAndroidOS :D

mr_jrt

2013-12-08, 13:06

Having recently purchased a Nintendo 3DS I did a bit of digging when discovering it has an optional cradle charger. It's quite clever (in the simple sense) how they've achieved this, basically two sprung pins either side of the charge port on the cradle that make contact with two exposed pads either side of the charge port on the unit that are electrically connected to the Vcc and Gnd lines. No need for fancy induction charging at all. :)

I mention this because it popped into my head when reading the previous posts concerned about charging whilst in OTG mode. Rather than adding a separate charging micro USB port (whilst useful for availability of chargers wherever you happen to be), is the Neo900 not a fine opportunity to put some of the induction charging mods people have developed into mainstream use?

So the primary charge mode would be via induction mats, and this frees up the USB port for OTG, but to handle situations whilst you don't have access to a mat you could also support charging via the USB port, at the downside that as with the N900, whilst in OTG mode you wouldn't be able to charge easily without some funky cable solution.

Thoughts?

Estel

2013-12-08, 19:48

Multi-touch (ok 2-touch) anybody? :) With rotate and pinch.
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=CRTOUCH&nodeId=0112698268

Since when Neo900 changes digitizer? Or I'm missing something/not understanding this link correctly (i.e. it's only about integrating "support" capacitive detection to work in pair with already existing N900 digitizer)?

Cheers,
/Estel

joerg_rw

2013-12-08, 19:55

Since when Neo900 changes digitizer? Or I'm missing something/not understanding this link correctly (i.e. it's only about integrating "support" capacitive detection to work in pair with already existing N900 digitizer)?

Cheers,
/Estel

*sigh* you obviously read the datasheet cursory :-/
Here again ~50% of that page, with bold attribute added for your convenience:Xtrinsic capacitive and resistive touch-sensing platform (CRTouch) enables resistive touch screens to handle basic gesture recognition. CRTouch allows also the addition of up to four capacitive electrodes to your systemStandard X,Y resistive touch screen detection with optional calibration
Pressure detection on 4 and 5 wires
Gesture detection: Slide, Two touch pinch for zoom-in and zoom-out, Two touch rotate

Four capacitive electrodes independent from touch screen:
this is a chip that supports two-touch pinch/rotate gestures on 4/5-wire resistive digitizers (like the one used in N900), and it also comes with an option to add 4 capacitive "buttons" which we may or may not make use of, but anyway which are completely unrelated to display digitizer.

peterleinchen

2013-12-08, 20:21

Worth a few bucks ...

As I am writing:
how about status of dual SIM possibility? (if negative, do not tell me.
I will wait some more time for a positive answer ;))

joerg_rw

2013-12-08, 20:45

how about status of dual SIM possibility? (if negative, do not tell me.
I will wait some more time for a positive answer ;))
P*S8 do not support DSDS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_SIM#Samsung_.22Dual_SIM_Always_on.22_feature) , but they all support firmware update, and the common LGA footprint has a sufficient number of pins that are not used and reserved for future use. I hope to suggest to Cinterion to already specify which of those spare pins might get used for a dual-SIM option that could possibly get implemented in some future release of their P*S8 firmware. Of course we would prepare Neo900 to make use of such possible extension by already providing some sort of footprint or connector to get a second SIM attached to the modem.

cheers
jOERG

sulu

2013-12-08, 23:02

4/5-wire resistive digitizers[/B] (like the one used in N900), and it also comes with an option to add 4 capacitive "buttons" which we may or may not make use of, but anyway which are completely unrelated to display digitizer.Can you (or someone else) please explain how the chip is supposed to read the extra gestures?

The image in the link mentions "Capacitive Electrodes". If I get that right these electrodes wil not necessarily be mounted on top of the screen but somewhere else (e.g. on the free space right of the screen). So they would pretty much be like extra hardware buttons.

How would these electrodes be connected to the chip? Right now I can hardly think of a wired way that would still enable me, Mr. AllThumbs, to replace the board on my own.

Or is this whole thing not for the basic Neo900 version but for the specialists who add extra features via the battery bay?

kingoddball

2013-12-09, 01:21

Back on the ATMEGA breakout - We could use something as simple as:

https://tiny-circuits.com/shop/6458/

Or use a custom ribbon cable out to this connection type:

https://tiny-circuits.com/products/tinyduino/

I am going to look into designing a rear case which can hold and have the breakout connection popping out of the rear so I can just plug a shield into the N900/Neo900 case!! :D:D SEXY SEXY NERD DEVICE!

This way I can just swap the rear case between standard and one I design/print which is hold a tiny duino - Hopefully connected to your pins under the board....

Edit: @Joerg: With the "other half" connections you have planned, will these have power running through them? If yes, what is the voltage??

Thanks! I have a little idea planned :rolleyes:

Estel

2013-12-09, 04:05

*sigh* you obviously read the datasheet cursory :-/
Here again ~50% of that page, with bold attribute added for your convenience:<snip>

Thanks, I have read whole datasheet, but I wasn't sure if it's a chip-only solution, or something that require custom digitizer. Frankly, I still don't get how it works it magic as just a tiny chip, without modifying screen module, but from your explanation, I presume it hooks up itself via pins of digitizer and deliver capacitive detection "magic" through it?

Cheers and relax, some things obvious to EE may be not so clear to us non-EE people :)

/Estel

joerg_rw

2013-12-09, 05:09

Thanks, I have read whole datasheet, but I wasn't sure if it's a chip-only solution, or something that require custom digitizer. Frankly, I still don't get how it works it magic as just a tiny chip, without modifying screen module, but from your explanation, I presume it hooks up itself via pins of digitizer and deliver capacitive detection "magic" through it?

Cheers and relax, some things obvious to EE may be not so clear to us non-EE people :)

/EstelThe operation principle is based on clever probing on the properties of the resistive touchscreen (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Resistive_Touchscreens), particularly the reduced resistivity of one plane when parts of it get "shorted" via a "bypass" through the two touchpoints to the other plane. The principle is known since ~6 or more years. No capacitive technology involved.
http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/09/plasma-desktoplg3743.png (actually the connects "touchpoint1" and "touchpoint2" also have some resistive component depending on pressure and area/diameter of the touchpoint - I dropped that for clarity of the schematics) Think of plane1 as upper and plane2 as lower plane. On touchpoints they contact each other.

Simplified explanation:
You got 4 "wires" X-Left, X-Right, Y-Upper, Y-Lower, and you can probe 6 distinctive resistivities from that 4 terminals. I leave it up to the reader to do the permutations. 6 input variables to your clever algorithm are good for delivering a solution for X, Y, pressure - for two touchpoints. It all depends on the math you do. Some sets of input variable values may yield more than one valid solution, in that case you can't say for sure which is the right one. This clean mathematical analysis also shows why you can't do 3-touch - your max 6 input variables are not supporting any algo that yields 9 resulting values for 3 touchpoints (for 5-wire r-ts (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Five-Wire) this looks different).

Chimrod

2013-12-09, 13:16

pichlo

2013-12-09, 14:01

@ Chimrod,
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1391987&post1391987

joerg_rw

2013-12-09, 14:26

Hello,

Thanks for your project, I'm impatient to update my n900 :)

I did not saw any mention of the multimedia capacity of the neo900. I know that the n900 has hardware mp3 decoder, but no ogg support (it need to be decoded in software).

Which format (audio and video) are planned in hardware for the neo900 ?

The decoding of multimedia formats is a software task, either done on CPU or on DSP (and/or GPU).
The DSP and GPU (PowerVR) are compatible though "stronger" on the DM3730 SoC we'll use for Neo900. It depends on the OS/distro and even the particular app which use will be made of those hardware coprocessors.

cheers
jOERG

Chimrod

2013-12-09, 14:29

@ Chimrod,
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1391987&post1391987

Thanks for your answer. I've read this post, but did not understand it was related with the audio decoder.

Chimrod

2013-12-09, 15:15

The decoding of multimedia formats is a software task, either done on CPU or on DSP (and/or GPU).
The DSP and GPU (PowerVR) are compatible though "stronger" on the DM3730 SoC we'll use for Neo900. It depends on the OS/distro and even the particular app which use will be made of those hardware coprocessors.

Thanks, if I understand correctly, this is the application job to use correctly the dsp.

I just wanted to be sure that earing mp3 collection throught the fm transmitter will not empty my batterie in one hour.

joerg_rw

2013-12-10, 04:54

Thanks, if I understand correctly, this is the application job to use correctly the dsp.

I just wanted to be sure that earing mp3 collection throught the fm transmitter will not empty my batterie in one hour.

http://tuomas.kulve.fi/blog/2009/11/07/n900-battery-duration-ogg-vs-mp3/ might be interesting for you

cheers
jOERG

Chimrod

2013-12-10, 11:38

http://tuomas.kulve.fi/blog/2009/11/07/n900-battery-duration-ogg-vs-mp3/ might be interesting for you

cheers
jOERG

Actualy very interesting.

I really appreciate the reactivity and the support you give here. This give to the project a very good direction ;)

Estel

2013-12-11, 04:08

Sorry if asked before, but I couldn't find a response:

There were some talks about "how sacurely can we turn modem off", but, for change I would like some insight on different approach for the matter - how much info, realistically in selected modem(s), could we query from modem hardware?

I mean that, in most old "dumbphones" from Nokia, there was a "hidden" netmon program, that was giving accurate information about transmission details, including even exact channel that we're transmitting at. It was often used by cellular network enthusiasts to select least occupied (by transfer) base stations on neighbourhood (even if not the closest one), point their antennas toward it, and "force" connection to selected BS, by enabling only selected band *and* channel in their modems. This, practically, allowed to semi-goaround the limitation, that only base stations choose, where client device connects.
---

Now, I imagine, that netmon was directly query'ing modem via some AT commands equivalent. In N900, hoever, or AT queries are handled by middle-man (AIUI), allowing only for very limited set of even basic queries, leaving "forcing" anything (like channel) totally out of question. Heck, we're even struggling to get (real-life) readings of band we're using in practice (getting only list of bands that we *could* be theoretically using).
---

Now, the actual question - how it will look on Neo900? Does that "complete control over modem" mean we will get all info *and* be able to force some connection parameters, like with stand-alone cellular modems for PCs?

/Estel

serges

2013-12-11, 06:00

If I want to buy complete device (not motherboard), will it be possible to assemble my Neo900 with national keyboard (namely russian) ?

lexik

2013-12-11, 08:48

joerg_rw

2013-12-11, 09:30

Sorry if asked before, [...] Now, the actual question - how it will look on Neo900? Does that "complete control over modem" mean we will get all info *and* be able to force some connection parameters, like with stand-alone cellular modems for PCs?

/Estel
please use http://m2m.gemalto.com/products/request-technical-information.html?product=phs8 to get the info you asked for, or use google ;-)
/j

pichlo

2013-12-11, 09:46

If I want to buy complete device (not motherboard), will it be possible to assemble my Neo900 with national keyboard (namely russian) ?
Yes, sure.

You can put your own (localized) keyboard to the N/eo900. There is no HW difference between English, Czech or Russian keyboard :)

I think he means if any national keyboards (that is, keyboards with e.g. Russian letters printed on) would be available. I am also slightly curious about that, the only after-market keyboards I've seen on eBay are English and Chinese.

Slightly off-topic but I bought a second-hand N900 with a Dutch keyboard and it always switches to a Dutch layout after a reflash. My other N900 with an English keyboard flashed with the same image switches to the English layout. How does it know which keyboard is used if there is no HW difference?

joerg_rw

2013-12-11, 09:53

@all: we're also depending on what's available from aftermarket
@pichlo: see CAL. It's not the kbd, it's the device (but that goes OT now)

Ulle

2013-12-11, 11:26

@pichlo: see CAL. It's not the kbd, it's the device

For what is CAL see: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=20465
No easy finding ... should that have its own wiki page?

dos1

2013-12-14, 13:04

New progress update! (http://neo900.org/news-0006-progress-update)

wicket

2013-12-14, 15:59

there are some differences in our approach where we disagree with FSF and we believe that in fact our concept is better for user privacy and freedom than what FSF suggests.
I would be interested to know what the FSF thinks of these differences. FSF approval could boost this project and I think it would be a good idea to work together with them. Saying that your concept for user privacy is better than the FSF's won't do you any favours in getting FSF approval. Remember that user privacy is one of their main goals too.

With regards to modifiable modem firmware, I agree with you that the user should have control and be able to upgrade it. Given the nature of closed firmware, it would be difficult to tell if there is anything in there already that would allow an OTA update by an external source. Perhaps we could have a daemon or cron job that periodically reads firmware ROM to check to see if it has been modified.

joerg_rw

2013-12-14, 16:42

I would be interested to know what the FSF thinks of these differences. FSF approval could boost this project and I think it would be a good idea to work together with them. Saying that your concept for user privacy is better than the FSF's won't do you any favours in getting FSF approval. Remember that user privacy is one of their main goals too.

With regards to modifiable modem firmware, I agree with you that the user should have control and be able to upgrade it. Given the nature of closed firmware, it would be difficult to tell if there is anything in there already that would allow an OTA update by an external source. Perhaps we could have a daemon or cron job that periodically reads firmware ROM to check to see if it has been modified.
So what's the question? You answered it yourself. And actually there IS NO hardware concept to have a modem with firmware that's not modifiable, the chip manufacturers won't use fuse ROM to store their firmware, and as soon as it's flash it CAN get modified. And you can't make sure that what you "read out from ROM" is the actual content and not some fake that the malware delivers to you. Regarding FSF approval: we are not interested in getting THAT approval, we take pride in our own concept being better than what FSF defines. The idea of immutable firmware is based on a flawed concept, it doesn't help for anything.

Akkumaru

2013-12-14, 16:58

How about the software side? Has the porting work been done theoretically or, we'd need the hardware first? :D

jperez2009

2013-12-14, 17:38

I love this idea and this concept, but the mere thought of $40 shy of $1000 for the device made me cringe. I know these aren't finalized prices and they are subject to change, but wow.

I hope this project succeeds and turns into a full-blown, affordable manufactured phone. I still have my N900 and this would certain breathe new life into my little device's casing!

pichlo

2013-12-14, 18:50

New progress update! (http://neo900.org/news-0006-progress-update)

"In other news, we're happy to announce that Neo900 hardware is going to support dual-touch gestures[4] like rotating and pinching, without replacing the original, resistive screen from N900!"

Does it mean that there is a chance to backport the dual touch to N900?

dos1

2013-12-14, 19:57

"In other news, we're happy to announce that Neo900 hardware is going to support dual-touch gestures[4] like rotating and pinching, without replacing the original, resistive screen from N900!"

Does it mean that there is a chance to backport the dual touch to N900?

Unfortunately, no - unless you do some crazy hw modding. We're not replacing the digitizer itself, but we're replacing the controller to which it's connected. Please refer to post from few last pages of this thread for more details. You may also want to read the issue on our tracker linked from the news - it has some discussion about the implementation in its comments.

wicket

2013-12-14, 21:01

So what's the question? You answered it yourself. And actually there IS NO hardware concept to have a modem with firmware that's not modifiable, the chip manufacturers won't use fuse ROM to store their firmware, and as soon as it's flash it CAN get modified. And you can't make sure that what you "read out from ROM" is the actual content and not some fake that the malware delivers to you. Regarding FSF approval: we are not interested in getting THAT approval, we take pride in our own concept being better than what FSF defines. The idea of immutable firmware is based on a flawed concept, it doesn't help for anything.

The FSF has quite a large following and their endorsement and publicity could help this project a lot. I'm not asking you to change anything to comply with the FSF. As I see it, you both strive for user privacy and that's why I'm interested in their opinion of the differences. Maybe it's a lack of understanding on their part or maybe they're just being stubborn. Do they realise that the Neo900 is the best we are going to get in terms of user privacy? Maybe they can be swayed - even RMS used computers before the existense of the computer that meets all of his criteria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemote#Netbook_computers).

dos1

2013-12-14, 21:08

qwazix

2013-12-14, 23:16

Isn't what FSF proposing essentially tivoization?

dos1

2013-12-14, 23:24

Isn't what FSF proposing essentially tivoization?

They want to differentiate software and hardware. When user is not supposed to install the software at all, they threat such device as "a circuit" and not as a general purpose computing device.

I understand it as an attempt to draw a line somewhere on where the software ends and the hardware starts. Not very successful one IMO and I think our project is a good example where it doesn't apply very well.

However, there's also a privacy aspect in their argumentation that they're embracing, and I don't understand at all how forbidding firmware updates is protecting anyone's privacy, since the backdoor may be there from the very beginning.

(BTW. "tivoization" will be there anyway unfortunately, as almost any GSM modem has signed firmware - those that don't are few generations old and there's still not a plenty of them...)

Estel

2013-12-15, 04:43

I think that article (written by someone with enough technical experience to dodge false informations, but with enough "common speech" sense, to make it understandable without EE entry courses) about this matter is great idea.

I agree that FSF seems to be terribly wrong on this one, and such document/discussion spawned could help fix it in their "upstream". After all, FSF is also done by normal people, and their policy isn't set in stone - may contain "bugs", or even wrong conceptions.

Unless they're stubborn over-the-line, this could be a Neo900's way of contributing to FSF, as added value.

/Estel

// Edit

Regarding FSF approval: we are not interested in getting THAT approval, we take pride in our own concept being better than what FSF defines.

Don't underestimate possible FSF impact on reaching Phase VI (1000 ordered devices) and theoretical Phase VII (1000 devices a month) goals. Pride in good concept is nice, but pride alone won't help reaching that milestones

Of course, I agree that we shouldn't change things to comply with wrong concept, but as said, they're Free project like us, and could be convinced to re-evaluate. If not - well, "pity", and lets move on. Still, throwing FSF approval without even trying doesn't sound like good idea for Neo900 cause.

lancewex

2013-12-15, 14:44

We're also looking for complete N900s in good quality (though possibly with broken mainboard) as well for as sources for spare parts. We'd like to kindly ask our community for a little bit of help there -

I have a decent, fully-functioning N900 I could potentially part with for the cause. If I do, can I get a discount on a NeoN900?
:-)

joerg_rw

2013-12-16, 01:14

The FSF has quite a large following and their endorsement and publicity could help this project a lot. I'm not asking you to change anything to comply with the FSF. As I see it, you both strive for user privacy and that's why I'm interested in their opinion of the differences. Maybe it's a lack of understanding on their part or maybe they're just being stubborn. Do they realise that the Neo900 is the best we are going to get in terms of user privacy? Maybe they can be swayed - even RMS used computers before the existense of the computer that meets all of his criteria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemote#Netbook_computers).

Wicket,
Mr Stallman mailed me, asking about all the FSF rules and if they are satisfied by Neo900. I answered that all are met but the modem firmware update that we will offer (according to what the modem module can do: update firmware via USB), that we can't change that since we can't evaluate the hardware internals to make sure whatever we do will reliably forbid manipulations to the firmware (write-enable pins may not have the expected effect, even if they existed), and that I think the firmware must be considered "rogue" by definition (you never know what's in there, even on genuine firmware) and thus we follow another approach of tight monitoring of the modem's activities from very beginning, which will tell us when the modem misbehaves even with genuine firmware.
I received no answer to that from Mr Stallman yet, after one week.

So that's what you might assume is what FSF and Mr Stallman think about Neo900:
They like our project since it's striving for freedom and openness, but they don't want to further care about it and answer to us, when we can't fulfill their requirements, even when those requirements are impossible to fulfill.

Here a complete quote of my 2 original answers to first and second mail from Mr Stallman (I received and answered 2nd mail first, thus my answer to 1st mail refers to my answer to 2nd):
On Sun 08 December 2013 00:50:37 Richard Stallman wrote:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> If the modem firmware is an installable program, then the fact that
> it is nonfree means the machine is running some nonfree software.
>
> If the modem firmware can't be changed, it is effectively in ROM, so
> it might as well be a circuit. It doesn't need to be considered
> as software. For instance, the FSF can disregard it when judging
> whether to endorse a product.

There are no modem chips that have a write-once or mask programmed ROM for
their firmware. And probably never will be.

> Could you possibly design the machine with a wire which, if cut,
> prevents flashing the modem software? Or some other way a user
> could prevent further reflashing of the modem software?

Since we don't know of the internal configuration of the modem hardware, we
can't ensure we actually forbid all changing of the firmware, no matter by
which means. Even an explicit WriteEnable pin on the modem chipset's flash chip
(if it were a separate chip) is not guaranteed to work the way it's advertised
by the chip manufacturer.

Also see my reasoning in other mail I sent, about program code generally
loaded to RAM before execution, and about initial genuine firmware not approved
for absence of any backdoors or other undesirable functions.

Sorry when I'm less concerned about FSF approval and whether the firmware of
modem is considered software or blackbox - what worries me is user's privacy
and that the user at all times has absolute control over what's going on with
her/his device. Firmware in ROM is an inapt means to ensure that privacy and
control.

best regards
jOERG
--
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On Sun 08 December 2013 00:51:37 Richard Stallman wrote:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> Can the radio modem processor modify its own program?
>
> If so, the universal back door will be able to reload it.

Yes, most likely the modem CPU can write the modem internal flash where the
firmware with the backdoor is stored, so they can replace backdoor A by
backdoor B or any other "malware".

Forbidding rewrite of the firmware doesn't ensure there's no backdoor or other
nasty tings in it from very beginning. Also usually the "firmware" gets loaded
from flash storage to RAM for execution, this opens up an option to load other
executabe code to RAM without even changing "the firmware" as stored to modem
"in an immutable way" at all.

The only thing that helps make sure the modem behaves is tight monitoring of
the modem's behavior ;-) and all applicable means to block behavior we don't
like to see.
In particular: check modem RF output to learn when it's sending though it
shouldn't, monitor modem's power consumption and compare to a sane profile,
make sure the modem is OFF when we expect it to be (trivial), make sure the
modem cannot get a GPS fix when we don't want it to do (also trivial, cut/short
GPS antenna), separate mic from modem audio input so user has full control
over what the modem "hears" (up to the point where you feed it with fake audio
of your choice), monitor the clock of modem's digital audio input which
indicates modem is listening.

If you know further parameters that should get controlled to stay "on top of"
what modem does, please let me know.
I hope to create a device you wuld be willing to at least consider carrying
:-)

Best Regards
jOERG
--
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/\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments

And here as an example a complete quote of my answer to another mail I received at 2013-12-07 03:58 from "anon" user :
Hi!
Though we are not really interested in complying with somebody else's
definition of a good, user friendly, secure and free hardware, we seem to
follow mostly the same rationale in most points.

On Sat 07 December 2013 03:58:13 Anon wrote:
> I wrote an e-mail to Richard Stallman asking about what he thought about
> the Neo900 because I was thinking about backing the project. He asked
> some points about the phone that I couldn't answer but maybe you could.
> The following is what he wrote to me:
>
[COLOR="blue"]> This is a big step forward in privacy. Whether it is good enough that
> I would be willing to carry one, I don't know. Nonetheless, I am
> strongly in favor of it, and I am willing to say so. Where and how
> should I say so?
>
> >Neo900 can be used with 100% Free Software stack.
>
> I am not sure exactly what the "stack" includes, and this issue calls
> for precise answers. Could you tell me which parts of the points
> below it will satisfy?
>
> * The radio modem should be on a separate chip.
>
> * The main computer should be able to turn the radio modem on and off.
>
> * The microphone and the GPS should be connected to the main computer,
> not to the radio modem.
>
> * The software on the main computer should be free -- all of it.
>
> * The radio modem should not be able to control the main computer
> or alter its memory.

All of the above points are 100% satisfied.

>
> * It should be designed so that nothing short of physical manipulation
> can alter the radio modem's own software. This program must not be
> updatable through software.

Here we disagree and take pride in announcing that our modem presumably can
receive firmware updates by a process commonly known as "flashing", which is
done exclusively under absolute control of the user. This allows the modem
software to get updated to fix bugs or implement new features (like e.g. done
for the GLONASS functionality).
If the flasher used to do this counts as "updating software" in the sense of
above, or if changing the charge in flash cells is a "physical manipulation"
that would be allowable according to above requirement is beyond our
knowledge.

Anyway we fail to understand the rationale that results in above requirement
spec. We can't see how such a restriction in user's freedom to do whatever
possible with the hardware she owns and controls is a good and beneficial thing
for the device's privacy or freedom or security or whatever. Thus we reject
any change of our product requirement specifications regarding this.

Best Regards
Joerg Reisenweber
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