Ideal keyboard design and configuration [Archive] - maemo.org

dirkvl

2013-10-07, 09:54

To run parallel to this thread (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1424569#post1424569), how would the perfect QWERTY OtherHalf keyboard look like? What materials, colors, shapes and sizes are the best?

3 rows? 4 rows? Numpad? Arrow-keys like the N810? Slide-out? Swing out (http://cdn.androidcommunity.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/t-mobile_g2_leak_2-540x405.jpg)? Magnets? (http://www.jsxltech.com/products/sharksucker-aluminum-detachable-wireless-bluetooth-keyboard-case-for-apple-iphone-5)

This thread is all about design and brainstorming, let's get some ideas together and iron out the details later!

Selection of the ugliest keyboards in the world:

Leather maybe? *UGLY*
http://news.cnet.com/i/bto/20090225/VX9600_QMP_Open2_hr_610x559.jpg
Blue? *UGLY*
http://static.thefullsignal.com/sites/knowyourcell/files/images/97351.png
'Ergonomic'? *UGLY*
http://www.wirelessmoment.com/images/motorola_a630_large_image_with_phone_open.jpg

pichlo

2013-10-07, 10:27

As Dave says. Clam shell preferable to slide or swing out.

HELLASISGREECE

2013-10-07, 11:09

The E7 keyboard will do!

Egon

2013-10-07, 11:24

The "ergonomic" Motorola keyboard really has nothing to do with decent ergonomics. Look at your hands. When holding a Qwerty phone between your palm bottoms, your thumbs do not move in the direction of the curved key rows of the Motorola keyboard. So it looks that it was designed by an arts designer and no expert of ergonomics. Besides, it and the blue keyboard are examples of English-only keyboards which are more or less impossible to localize to other languages - there are too few keys.
For some tablets are available virtual split keyboard where the key rows are matched with the natural thumb movements: on circular arches, the centers of which are near the corners of the tablet screen. But those keyboard substitutes cannot be called ergonomic, because of other reasons, such as the fact that its keys are only virtual keys on a touch screen.
But does the 4 or 5-way rocky key in the center of the Motorola keyboard make its ergonomics acceptable? Hardly. I've found it a lot more natural and easier to use four arrow keys than streching my thumbs a quite long way to the center of the keyboard. Besides the use of 4 arrows keys is a more standard way: they can be used like on full-size keyboards.

dirkvl

2013-10-07, 11:31

So it looks tha it was designed by an arts designer and no expert of ergonomics. Besides, it and the blue keyboard are examples of English-only keyboards which are more or less impossible to localize to other languages - there are too few keys.

These were the ugliest keyboards I could find in 5 min, but they get the conversation started :D

Egon

2013-10-07, 11:54

http://i.imgur.com/jMYGijl.jpg
This keyboard layout looks acceptable: there are enough keys for the localizing of most languages. For example, the Ü Ö Ä of the German language and the Å Ö Ä of the Swedish and some other languages can be put to their standard keys: on the right-thumb side of the P and L keys.

The layout could be improved a bit by adding a 2nd shift key. Perhaps a single key is enough for Fn and Sym as well as Ctrl, which would replace the "Command" keys of Apple computers in the picture. And is the CapsLock really needed? On full-size keyboards it causes constant trouble, because it is too near the Shift key, and therefore is hit too easily by accident. I'd prefer seeing the Tab key instead of the CapsLock key. If the CapsLock function is done on virtual keyboards with double-tapping on the Shift key, it may be easier to apply the same functionality also on the HW Qwerty. With these omissions, for a compromise layout, it may be possibles to reduce the number of key columns from 13 to 12. But please remember that the Ctrl key is a must!

Although the above picture may not represent any real keyboard, you dirkvl could consider adding its picture to the root message, with this title: Full

Egon

2013-10-07, 13:28

This is what I regard as ideal Qwert* keyboards:
- Slides out from the longer edge of Jolla (the phone is carried on rails above the keyboard), like on Nokia N810 and N900
- Keyboard width is determined by the width of the Jolla phone (in landscape orientation)
- Keys have a spherical shape, sufficiently outbowing: a bit more outbowing than on Nokia E7. Acceptable shapes of keys are found on Nokia N900 and E70.
- Key labels in 2 or 3 colors, background-illuminated
- At least one Shift, Ctrl, Fn and Sym key, perhaps also the Tab key
- Four arrow keys are a must. In language-localized variants their number must not be less than 4 (unfortunately on many localized N900 keyboards the ArrowUp is made with Sym+ArrowLeft and ArrowDown is made with Sym+ArrowRight, which is too impractical). Besides, the removal of the ArrowUp and ArrowDown keys ruin the use of keyboard shortcuts.
- When you slide the HW Qwerty in, you can continue using the virtual keyboard on touch screen, using practically the same key sequencies. To achieve this, there could be sticky Shift and Ctrl keys on the virtual keyboard. For easy text selection and cursor movements, 4 arrow keys are useful also on virtual keyboards. For example, if you have tapped on an arrow key after the Shift key, the Shift will remain sticky until you tap again on the Shift key, or make an operation which cancels the text-selection. Perhaps the arrow keys of the virtual keyboard can be omitted if the selection of text can be done easily, like with the Opera Mobile browser (but please do not mimic the miserable virtual keyboard of Opera!). I must admit, however, that beginners may regard the Editing Layer of the Swype keyboard as more user friendly than the shortcuts with sticky modifier keys - but keyboard shortcuts are quicker to use.
- To allow easy keyboard shortcuts like Ctrl + Shift + ArrowRight on HW Qwerty, please examine whether one or more of the Ctrl, Shift and Sym keys can be made to work as a sticky key (for keyboard shortcuts, the Sym key would have the same functionality as the Alt key on full-size Qwerty keyboards)
- To save space for other keys, spacebar should not be made wider than the sum of 2 or 3 adjacent keys.
- No excessively large keys. Yes, you can hit the Shift, Backspace and Enter keys with no problems even though they are not bigger than letter keys, if their shape is outbowing enough.
- Keys arranged like on chessboard. Although by tilting the key columns you can make the keyboard look more like a full-size keyboard, such a trick does not help: its use with two thumbs will remain totally different from how you enter text on a full-size Qwerty keyboard.
- Put Y-H-N (etc) keys in the same vertical key columns. It will help enormously those who are accustomed to 10-finger touch-typing on full-sized keyboards - they will know subconsciously where each key is located if columns are arranged correctly, even though naturally you cannot "10-finger touch-type" on two-thumb keyboards. This naturally applies to other key columns (T-G-B, U-J-M etc).
- The number of key rows depends on how much the keyboard slides from below the phone. I regard 4 rows as minimum. The Z X C V B N M keys should not be on the lowermost row of keys - it is best to use it for modifier keys like Shift, Fn, Sym etc. If there is not enough space for 5 rows, then numbers are entered as the combinations of the Fn and the topmost keys.

DeeGee

2013-10-07, 14:14

Egon basically had all the good ideas, so only thing I have to add is a good/bad(?) example of how not to do possible production of the keyboard...

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1703567677/icontrolpad-2-the-open-source-controller
I expected it to be late of the original estimate, but this is bit ridiculous. Even though these are the people that are the creators of the Pandora console (http://openpandora.org/). Let's see if I get mine before my Jolla...

Waynder

2013-10-07, 14:30

e7/n950 keyboard all the way!

dirkvl

2013-10-07, 21:05

Okay, but can the n950's keyboard be improved? I would personally love to have a keyboard with brushed aluminium keys like the asus zenbooks!

Or... The Lauta (http://mynokiablog.com/2012/09/04/leaked-prototype-nokia-lauta-rm-742-cancelled-immediate-n9-successor/)... What could have been! To hell with metal and black keyboards!
http://mynokiablog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/rm-742-6.jpg

Mentalist Traceur

2013-10-07, 23:25

First off, I'll take a keyboard where they key mapping is done with xkb over a keyboard where it's not, almost universally. That, more so than any particular key availability or layout, matters to me. Because of the beautiful simplicity that if you have that, you can set what keys you do have to be much more suitable for you.

Want a tab key? Easy, find some unused key combination (or one used for something you don't care for), and use it. For me, that's Fn+Enter on the N900.

Even on the N900 with its 3-row, rather limited keyboard, I have just about any key I want, the limitation being more about how many key layouts I can memorize and comfortably use. I have Fn+Shift (in that order. Shift+Fn is just another key level in one layout) mapped to cycle through my key mappings. I have the latin/english characters and all the commonly used specials in that layout, cyrillic/russian characters and many other special characters on a second one, and have been in the process of putting together a third layout for all the special characters that typically come up in mathematics or science. I can certainly type more things in at will than is available (near as I can tell, if the only keys available are the ones printed on the buttons) on the N950 keyboard's default key mapping.

Secondly, if the above is satisfied I'm perfectly okay with 3-row keyboards. 4-row and 5 row would also be acceptable to me, thought I would conjecture this would make touch-thumb-typing harder, and 5 seems like pushing it, but if overall it's comfortable to use, great. Bigger keyboards typically mean they start to expand, which means you need bigger and bigger hands to comfortably reach all the keys with your thumbs. This has more to do with the size of the device than the key placement, though. The black-berry Z10, for example, from my fiddling with one, is sometimes noticeably uncomfortable for me because it's size means I actually end up having to 'reach' with my thumbs. I can tolerate it because it doesn't come up often, but I would absolutely hate being thus inconvenienced with a keyboard. (Admittedly, usually on a keyboard you don't have to reach across more than half the span thereof with a given thumb, though depending on exactly what key combinations you've mapped to what, and whether the modifier keys like shift and Fn 'latch' or need to be held to have their effects. On the N900 for example, shift and fn latch, but some programs, like emacs, seem to disregard this latching and then you have to held them pressed down to get the desired characters).

So the point is, I really don't have two much of an ideal layout. It should have arrow keys, and ideally the full set of modifier keys (Ctrl, Shift, Fn, Alt, Meta), although the minimal N900 set (Ctrl, Shift, Fn) has worked well enough for me most of the time. Give me xkb on the software end, and I can take it from there, thanks.

Egon

2013-10-08, 20:59

... Want a tab key? Easy, find some unused key combination (or one used for something you don't care for), and use it. For me, that's Fn+Enter on the N900 ...
I'm not familiar with the 'xkb in the software end', but what you tell above souds good. Especially if you need to write with a character set of a 2nd or 3rd language, or use a lot of special symbols, it is nice to have a special new layer of your "own" characters. Like you say, memorizing them is a challenge. That's why layout designers and localizers want to stick to some standard conventions, and leave the personal customizing to be done by the user's own wish and responsibility.

... Bigger keyboards typically mean they start to expand, which means you need bigger and bigger hands to comfortably reach all the keys with your thumbs. This has more to do with the size of the device than the key placement, though. ...
Yes, there are many factors which affect the writing ergonomics. And they really need to be tested thoroughly. A "Sliding Qwerty Keyboard Half" will certainly be even more challenging than the existing sliding Qwerty phones, because the "display part" (= the phone) will be a lot heavier than the display part of N900, for example. Text entry is affected a lot by the balance (where is the weight center of the phone + OH combination). which depends on whether there is a battery in the Qwerty, and where exactly. The optimal place for the battery could be below the keymat, but such a place can make the Qwerty OH quite thick. In any case, many tests need to be done. Perhaps also the place of the keymat need to be tested; what is the optimal distance between the leftmost and rightmost keys from the left and right ends of the keyboard.

... So the point is, I really don't have two much of an ideal layout. It should have arrow keys, and ideally the full set of modifier keys (Ctrl, Shift, Fn, Alt, Meta), although the minimal N900 set (Ctrl, Shift, Fn) has worked well enough for me most of the time. Give me xkb on the software end, and I can take it from there, thanks.
Below you can see the Qwerty of N950. Like on most HW Qwerties of Nokia it uses three modifier keys which affect characters: Shift, Sym and Fn (on this keyboard using the "north-east arrow" label).
http://talk.maemo.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=33386&stc=1&d=1379155831

With the Sym key can be entered a wide variety of characters that are used by most European languages. Its operation is different from the corresponding "press and hold a key" function of virtual touch-screen keyboards. But their purpose and character sets are quite similar. On HW Qwerties "multitapping with a key while holding the Sym key despressed" is more complex to use than the corresponding "tap and hold a key and slide onto the wanted variant letter" function of virtual keyboards. But in the case of most European languages, the most frequently used variant letter is there as the default letter on virtual keyboards, and as the "1st letter variant" on HW keyboard, which you get by pressing the Sym and letter key at the same time (or the Sym key a bit earlier). These operations are complicated to explain in writing, but once you've learned to use them, you will not long for any "special character tables", which are still found on some phones. The Fn key is needed for punctuation marks, paretheses, etc symbols which are printed on the keys. For these reasons I recommend keeping both the Fn and Sym keys on the keyboard. The Sym key is essential also for keyboard shortcuts: on smartphones the Sym key could be used like the Alt key of full-size Qwerty keyboards in some keyboard shortcuts, such as Sym+Enter (= Alt+Enter). For the planning of keyboard shortcuts, the standard full-size keyboard is the best reference. Because the simultaneous pressing on three or more keys is too difficult, keyboard shortcuts should be used moderately, or they should be made with "sticky" modifier keys. so that you can make the keyboard shortcut "in series".

The Ctrl key is a must, which often saves us in some difficult situations. For instance, selected text can be cut/copied/pasted with Ctrl+C, Ctrl+X, Ctrl+V, respectively - on web pages there often is no other way to make those operations. On touchscreen you may see corresponding function buttons, but when writing text on a HW keyboard it is usually a lot more practical to use the Ctrl-shortcuts than the Cut / Copy / Paste labels on the touchscreen. Keyboard shortcuts made with arrow keys are very powerful. Because there are no keys like Home, End, PgUp, PgDown, some 3-key shortcuts may be needed.

Venemo

2013-10-09, 07:45

I would personally love to have a keyboard with brushed aluminium keys like the asus zenbooks!

I have a zenbook. The keys are plastic, not aluminium.The stuff below the keys looks aluminium though.

freemangordon

2013-10-09, 08:28

e7/n950 keyboard all the way!

Ever used n950? As I find it's keyboard inferior to n900 keyboard - space between buttons is too big, shift key is on some strange position, etc. Not to mention the weird way to open it (but I guess this is OT)

EDIT:
not shift but ctrl key

pichlo

2013-10-09, 09:37

Not to mention the weird way to open it (but I guess this is OT)

As I say, clam shell preferable! :)

Can't see how this is OT given the thread title.

juiceme

2013-10-09, 09:54

Ever used n950? As I find it's keyboard inferior to n900 keyboard - space between buttons is too big, shift key is on some strange position, etc. Not to mention the weird way to open it (but I guess this is OT)

Well I have never seen N950 but from the pictures I assume the device opens the same way E7 does.

I had E7 in the past, and while the keyboard is pretty decent to use the problem is exactly opening the device.
You absolutely cannot open it single-handed, and it takes care and force to open it with two hands. The device is so slippery it's easy to drop it when trying to open the keyboard.

I had a clamshell-type-faux-leather device protective cover with my E7, and using that it was easier to open it because you could get some friction between your hands and the device, but without it, --> very difficult.

jalyst

2013-10-09, 10:30

Yup, it's basically the same kind of mechanism, t'was one of it's biggest criticisms back in the day.

Egon

2013-10-09, 10:46

Ever used n950? As I find it's keyboard inferior to n900 keyboard - space between buttons is too big, shift key is on some strange position, etc. Not to mention the weird way to open it (but I guess this is OT)
EDIT: not shift but ctrl key
I prefer the straight-sliding keyboards of N810 and N900 for several reasons. One reason: it provides exciting possibilities to replace separate keyboard and camera-grip OHs. Or, the holes of a Sliding Qwerty Half can be used as a lens hood and a lens cover for the camera of Jolla phone. Please see what I wrote to http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1379527#post1379527

The exact places of the Ctrl and Shift keys seem to vary on N950, depending on localized languages and perhaps also HW versions. To me the keyboard of N950 does not look too bad in picture http://talk.maemo.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=33386&stc=1&d=1379155831
except that its tilting screen mechanism is worse than the straight and less complex construction of N810 and N900. I believe that the Ctrl key was moved to the right-thumb edge to make it easier to make the most common shortcuts of Ctrl+A, Z, X, C, V, B.

Regading your comment "space between buttons is too big", my comment is: what matters most is the shape of the keys, not their exact dimensions. The reason why I don't regard the keys of N950 as ideal is the flatness of the keys. Actually, it is the distance of the tops (centers) of the keys that matters, if their shape is spherical enough.

stefanmohl

2013-10-09, 11:34

How about making all keys in a sheet of molded clear transparent plastic, along with a cheap resistive-touch e-paper screen placed underneath the keys, and some led-lighting around it.

That would give a physical keyboard with fully configurable key labels.

The only permanent decision will be the dimensions of the matrix of physical keys, i.e. 3, 4 or 5 rows times 11, 12, 13 or 14 keys, possibly with an extra large key on the bottom row to potentially use for space. If you want cursor keys, sym, ctrl, tab, Fn, esc, alt or any other modifiers will be a user decision depending on the keyboard layout you download, install and display on your keys.

I for one will have a layout that includes pipe, ampersand and all sorts of braces easily accessible :-)

Egon

2013-10-09, 11:42

stefanmohl

2013-10-09, 11:46

Patents are tricky, they are often not what you think, so it might be quite easy to work around it. And of course, they might be agreeable to license for a reasonable fee even if it can't be worked around. Furthermore, if this specific idea hasn't been patented before, it is now unpatentable, since I have now publicly published it :-)

juiceme

2013-10-09, 12:33

stefanmohl

2013-10-09, 13:17

Oh, that isn't what I meant. The clear molded plastic sheet is molded because it has the shape of a keyboard with keys. The keys will move and spring up as usual, in fact many standard keyboards and keypads are made like this (but with black plastic and painted symbols).

It might need to be made of two different materials, one rubber sheet between the keys to make the keys spring back well and one clear plastic to allow you to see the screen through the keys, but it might even be possible to make in a single material that is not only transparent but also sufficiently springy when thin and sufficiently hard when thick; I don't know enough about the material options available, but I have gotten the impression that there are very many to choose from.

Egon

2013-10-09, 13:39

Oh, that isn't what I meant. The clear molded plastic sheet is molded because it has the shape of a keyboard with keys.....
Yes, the page which I saw describes exactly the same shape as you stefanmohl describe. The shape tries to make the moulded or pressed keys "click" somehow; there are the same kind of almost 90-degree edges, like those of real keys. But as I've not had the opportunity to use it, I have some doubts about its tactical "touch and feel". Now that page is hard to find. Maybe they come across patent disputes or the product is not yet mature enough.

cvp

2013-10-09, 16:19

Akkumaru

2013-10-09, 16:27

You guys talking about tactus?

Egon

2013-10-09, 16:39

Guys, please do not forget the problem with the camera!
How do you want in the open or closed state to make photo?
Even in the open or pushed-out state needs the rail or the mechanics something space. And I think that will also cover the camera. Install a second camera with LED light on the keyboard is too costly and will take away even more space. And who knows if the photos are forwarded to the memory card fast enough via I2C.
I guess that your comment would belong better to the "Other Half Feasibility" thread of http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91562
After reading the list of suggested OHs in the "Other Half Feasibility" thread I cannot figure out what you mean with the "second camera with LED light on the keyboard".

After writing the above text I now see that you intented to post your comment to my http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1379527#post1379527
In the suggested combination there would be no extra electronics in the "Qwerty part" of the integrated device (perhaps the LEDs being the only exception). It's all about mechanics and design, also if the same concept were applied to a Sliding Keyboard Half. Please also note that it is an independent topic which has not much to do with the list of the suggested OHs of the "Other Half Feasibility" thread.

cvp

2013-10-09, 17:00

Egon

2013-10-09, 17:13

Ok I'll try to explain it another time. Look on the first page of this thread. since you have uploaded an image with a keyboard. Now you have to think that you close the keyboard now. What it covers in this moment? CORRECT the camera! Do you want every time open the keyboard to use the camera?

How can we solve this problem in order to take a photo when closed now? CORRECT: to brew a second camera with an LED ... but that's Bullsh**. Therefore, one should construct it so that you can take a photo in the closed state.

Do you understand what I mean me now?
I believe that dirkvl added the "Leather maybe?" picture only as an example of a keyboard which seems to be put in a kind of leather bag. And to display its Qwerty layout. I think we here don't need to think too much about the functionality of the phonein the leather bag (the 1st picture). Besides, to me it looks that if the keyboard half turns 180 degrees on its "leather hinge" onto the phone, it covers only the small "back camera" (that for Skype etc). Of course if you turn the keyboard so that it goes behind the phone, it would become an obstacle for the main camera. But that hardly is the intention.

In this context it is better forget the way the Sliding Keyboard Half works, on its rail which slide the phone in front of the keyboard. I believe that dirkvl intented this thread maybe for the Qwerty layout and material issues. Although you are right about the keyboard if it slides on rails below the phone, please do not worry about the "keymat layout sample" picture.

Besides, a solution has already been found: the hidden part of the sliding keyboard (like those of N810 and N900) can be equipped with one or two holes thru which the cameras "sees" the object. Via the latter link of my previous reply you can read more about it.

dirkvl

2013-10-09, 17:35

I believe that dirkvl added the "Leather maybe?" picture only as an example of a keyboard which seems to be put in a kind of leather bag. And to display its Qwerty layout. I think we don't need to think too much about the functionality of the phone.

Exactly, discussions about camera funtionality does not belong here. All the other OtherHalf topic are way to crowded to have a sensible discussion. There is already a thread about keyboard+camera+extra funtionality here (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91557).

Oh yeah, the pictures in the first topic were the ugliest keyboards I could find in 5min, but they centainly get the conversation going!

Are there any people with experience with the Surface Touchcover? They look very appealing! Same as the Lauta, I would like to see a colourful keypad for a change!
http://photos.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Microsoft-Surface-Touch-Cover.jpg

jalyst

2013-10-10, 02:54

Exactly, discussions about camera funtionality does not belong here.

I don't get how it doesn't belong here...
Surely a good design doesn't impede ph functionality?
The "hole fix" doesn't seem to make much sense, yet.

Are there any people with experience with the Surface Touchcover?
They look very appealing! Same as the Lauta, I would like to see a colourful keypad for a change!

Not yet, I should have one in the coming months. :)

Waynder

2013-10-10, 13:11

Egon

2013-10-10, 20:05

You guys talking about tactus?
We were not talking about Tactus, but about an extra transparent plate of soft plastic, with rectangular shapes on it. User needs to put the keyboard plate on touchscreen. But the Tactus keyboard looks more versatile, because the tactile keyboard seems to be a transparent membrane, under which goes a liquid which raises the keyboard domes. At least the shape of the keys is correct: spherical and elevated enough. Please ssee the videos of http://www.tactustechnology.com/technology.html and http://techcrunch.com/2013/05/06/tactus-and-synaptics-create-a-reference-tablet-for-oems-with-an-amazing-disappearing-keyboard/ . If the Tactus techology becomes available as acceptable keyboards, then we may need to say goodbye to conventional HW keyboards. Or the other half might consist of an extra touch screen, with the Tactus keyboard on its surface.

Also a company called Senseg seems to bring a new technology which makes you feel something on the screen. But on their page they tell more about feeling textures rather than keyboards. http://senseg.com/ . According to some news, Nokia and Apple have been customers of Senseg, which has its HQ in Espoo, Finland.

This is the news about Nokia and its texture-feeling touch screen: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19510-nokia-touchscreen-creates-texture-illusion.html#.UlcnJFO2Xb0 They tested it on N900 :p Apple seems to have applied for a patent about something related: http://readtechnews.com/apples-latest-touch-screen-patent-will-have-fingertip-feedback/

jalyst

2013-10-11, 05:01

Tactus looks interesting....

That Senseg & Nokia stuff has been news/info for years, nothing concrete has ever come from it.
I'd trust Apple more to finally deliver something...

kulve

2013-10-11, 05:52

Should there be a separate thread about constructing a keyboard that doesn't require mass production?

It's easy and cheap to get a PCB from Itead, a 3D printed casing from Shapeways but how about the actual physical buttons?

Or is the best way to buy a replacement keyboard for some known qwerty phone and build the PCB for that?

dirkvl

2013-10-11, 09:48

Crazy concept idea: transparent keyboard?

http://natebu.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/handplatine_web.jpg

When any mechanical stuff is well designed, why not show it?

pichlo

2013-10-11, 12:24

Crazy concept idea: transparent keyboard?

Or a variation on this one (http://geeker.com/electronics/arduino-skeleton-%E2%80%93-look-mom-no-pcb/) :)

Transparent looks nice. Probably not very durable though.

Egon

2013-10-12, 06:13

Tactus looks interesting....

That Senseg & Nokia stuff has been news/info for years, nothing concrete has ever come from it.
I'd trust Apple more to finally deliver something...
Yes, the Senseg/Nokia texture-feeling feature hardly is as good as the Tactus way of feeling where the key tops are. Tactus calls it "orientation". But how do they make a Tactus key click? A good haptic feedback may be needed, à la N9. Now would be needed real keyboards instead of videos. According to the web pages of Tactus, something will be available "in 2013".

dirkvl

2013-10-12, 15:39

jalyst

2013-10-12, 17:07

In that article he claims the tweets prove that they almost certainly have plans for a qwerty OH.
But none of the tweets do that, all they do is suggest that they have their own branded OH's planned.*
He often does that in his writing style, makes "great leaps" etc...

*granted a qwerty OH is probably the most likely OH for them to release if they've been listening

Egon

2013-10-12, 18:07

There is some speculation on JollaUsers (http://www.jollausers.com/2013/10/jollahqs-sneak-peaks-on-twitter-job-openings-as-well/) that Jolla will develop a qwerty otherhalf. Perhaps this makes this discussion useless, perhaps they are following us closely.

I hope the latter!
It often comes to my mind that only the big brother follows us: it takes a few hours or days to get the latest contents of talk.maemo.org indexed by Google. But if I publish something at an ordinary site, it may take several weeks until I can google its contents. So, in that meaning we are extraordinary :D

qwazix

2013-10-12, 18:20

Minutes

https://www.google.gr/search?q=It%20often%20comes%20to%20my%20mind%20tha t%20only%20the%20big%20brother%20follows%20us%3A%2 0it%20takes%20a%20few%20hours%20or%20days

dirkvl

2013-10-17, 12:39

Dome sweet dome (http://www.snaptron.com/domesdomesstanFSERzxqL3156.cfm)? These domes might be a nice solution to quickly customize and build keyboards?

stefanmohl

2013-10-17, 13:13

I agree with the overall dome-shape, as has been mentioned by others in this thread, but I would also like to add an important fact for fast typing: The "springyness" has to be soft to allow typing fast on small keys! It is nicer if there is a sense of click when one hits the bottom, but for fast typing it is actually more important that little force is required to depress the key into the contact state. Even the N900 keyboard would have been better if it were softer than it is.

dirkvl

2013-10-18, 11:06

stefanmohl

2013-10-18, 12:41

With some usability studies, it must be possible to figure out the perfect size for a thumb-keyboard. If the phone is smaller than that, the keyboard should fill as much space as possible, otherwise it shouldn't.

Perhaps we can find some free-standing thumb keyboards that have been made without size constraints? The sizes of those will probably tell what the ideal size should be.

If there is space beside the keyboard, an analog joystick seems like a good choice for the space, i.e. an input device that the screen and keyboard can't fulfill by themselves.

pichlo

2013-10-18, 12:57

This might be irrelevant since that layout is probably impractical on the Jolla's OH, but the best QUERTY keyboard I have ever used was this one:

http://cdn2.gsmarena.com/vv/pics/handspring/hst600_01.jpg

(I have never held the vertical QUERTY Blackberrys so cannot pass any judgment there but I am happy to believe they are similar.)

One could easily operate it with the thumb of the hand holding the phone while walking, and keeping the other hand free for e.g. holding the shopping bags etc.The N900 has a good keyboard but there is no way to manage the same feat: I have to stop and use both hands to use it.

I believe this is the inherent problem with all horizontal designs. The keyboard is too wide and the vertical distance too short to provide any kind of one-handed support, regardless of how much space you leave between the key and the edge. If anything, since a two-hand operation is required anyway, I would vote for using the whole space.

Egon

2013-10-18, 13:10

Other thing I had some thoughts about:

Should the keyboard cover the total width of the phone? Like this one:\
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_E-HBtGdxmL8/SPSay7TdJEI/AAAAAAAACbw/OE6KmBd3mdU/s320/lg-prada-ii-1.jpg

Or would it be better to leave a substantial space on the sides?
http://cdn.ubergizmo.com/photos/2010/9/verizon-htc-android-qwerty.jpg

It's a matter of size of the keys vs. distance your thumbs need to travel and have to bend to reach the outer en inner keys.

At the moment I think I'd rather have a keyboard that is not the total width!
To keep everyone happy, let's make a compromise solution:
Put the essential keys on a 10-column Qwerty keyboard (key columns 2 ...11). Fill the "marginal key columns" nr 1 and 12 with additional keys which are used less frequently. Among them can be Tabulator, Esc, Alt. Perhaps also the Sym key can be in the 1st or 12th key column (it would not be needed for English texts, because Sym would be used mainly with "multitapping" for "foreign" characters, such as the á à ä â ª å æ characters of the A key. But keys like Fn, Shift, Ctrl and Enter should be in the essential key area of key columns 2 ... 11. And no CAPS LOCK key, please (that key is too close to the Shift key on full-size keyboards). There would be less than 8 marginal keys on a 4-row keyboard, because part of the left-hand margin of a sliding keyboard would be needed for the 2nd hole, thru which you can shoot pictures with the sliding keyboard inserted. To get an idea of that special construction, please see what I wrote to http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1379527#post1379527
Please note that I wrote this without knowing the exact distance of the camera lens from the top of Jolla phone.

dirkvl

2013-10-18, 13:26

To keep everyone happy, let's make a compromise solution:
Put the essential keys on a 10-column Qwerty keyboard (key columns 2 ...11). Fill the "marginal key columns" nr 1 and 12 with additional keys which are used less frequently. Among them can be Tabulator, Esc, Alt. Perhaps also the Sym key can be in the 1st or 12th key column (it would not be needed for English texts, because Sym would be used mainly with "multitapping" for "foreign" characters, such as the á à ä â ª å æ characters of the A key. But keys like Fn, Shift, Ctrl and Enter should be in the essential key area of key columns 2 ... 11. And no CAPS LOCK key, please (that key is too close to the Shift key on full-size keyboards). There would be less than 8 marginal keys on a 4-row keyboard, because part of the left-hand margin of a sliding keyboard would be needed for the 2nd hole, thru which you can shoot pictures with the sliding keyboard inserted. To get an idea of that special construction, please see what I wrote to http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1379527#post1379527
Please note that I wrote this without knowing the exact distance of the camera lens from the top of Jolla phone.

Ehhhhhhh can you make a sketch?

Egon

2013-10-18, 14:01

Ehhhhhhh can you make a sketch?No, not yet. First we should know the distance of the camera lens from the top of the Jolla phone. I have not followed actively which of the appearance pictures is the latest. But I've understood that the lens is now in the middle of the top (on the left side when you look at the sreen and turn the phone to landscape orientation). We should also know whether the keymat of the sliding keyboard (its visible part) makes 50% or 60% or more of the height of the phone in landscape orientation. Perhaps it is best not to draw any sketch yet, so please let your imagination fly and put forward your own layout.

But I can disguise something: the layout can be almost like this, but with the "marginal kets" partly where you now see indicator lights and partly on the 13th key column. And there would not be 13 key columns but 10 essential key columns and 2 or 4 marginal key columns.
http://i.imgur.com/jMYGijl.jpg
On the biggest phones (those with 5" or bigger screens, or with a camera in the middle of the the phone), it may be best to build a split Qwerty keyboard, like I explain in the "Phone, keyboard and camera grip put together" thread, but then we're not talking about an OH, but an integrated phone + keyboard device, which would make camera grips obsolete. An omitted OH is often the best OH :rolleyes:

dirkvl

2013-10-18, 20:43

Okay I'm having some issues with this whole keyboard-design stuff. Let me explain why:

<Bold statement>No one has ever made a good phone keyboard!</Bold statement> Literally every qwerty-phone has a different keyboard design, which means there a people designing each time.

As I am looking through al the qwerty phones, I am looking whether I like the design, the layout, the size, the colors, the materials, etc. I know what I like and I know what I don't like.

Example 1: Nokia E7
Lots op people suggest this keyboard. It's boring! Grey on grey, not round, not square and not squirqle. In between.. Function buttons above the function key, which is not handy. Number keys across the top key, which makes typing in someons phone number less practical then just using the touchscreen!
http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/images/reviews/e7/nokia-e7-photos_tb.jpg

Example 2: Galaxy S Relay
Same boring shape, but black on grey/metal which is a slight improvement. Dedicated number keys, so no function-key problems. The 'A' has somehow fused with the TAB key, which I find strange, because if they didn't make the A and P key bigger and ditched the microphone button (why is it there?!), this would be avoided. Still, boring keyboard.
http://images.mobiledia.com/phones/samsung/galaxy-s-relay-4g/galaxy-s-relay-4g-4.jpg

Example 3: Motorola Photon
Less boring. Dedicated FN, TAB, Shift and CAPSLOCK (?). Better so far. But, exclamation mark on the top left? Not convienent if the FN in on the bottom left! And what it lack in not being boring, it compensates by being plane old ugly.
http://androidandme.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/motorola-photon-q-630.jpg

Example 4: HTC touch pro
Okay, clean and black! Except for that one green button... Really?! 5 rows of buttons, but the @ and ! are still in the top left. It is just the next plastic keyboard! But now it is black. It look cheap, it feels cheap, just bad design!
http://ic.tweakimg.net/ext/i/productsurvey/9804/8405.jpg

What I am looking for is a keyboard that is clean. No weird key-layout. Not looking like a mess. Not too little keys, so you don't have to press 2 function keys for a symbol. Not too many keys, so that is doesn't look like a huge computer keyboard.

Example 5: Nokia 5730
Nice color around the keyboard, clean and black. Two FN keys, which makes the ! in the top-left not awkward, NICE! But what is that totally weird vertical bar in the middle of the keyboard?! It is ugly and out of place! Was the spacebar 2mm too narrow?!
http://www.gsminfo.nl/nieuwsmedia/images/phones/nokia/5730_red_01_LowRes.jpg

Example 6: iPhone5Mod magnetic keyboard
This is much and much better! Thin, metal, white between the keys. It is beautiful! But why have a power button on your keyboard and why had is stolen the place of the backspace?? Spacebar not in the middle? Personal choice for everyone. Not usable.
http://www.poderpda.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/teclado-iphone5mod.jpeg

Example 7: Eten M810
WOW! This is awesome! But is got terrible reviews, terrible keyboard. Spacebar should be twice as large. I love the backlit slits though!
http://i-cdn.phonearena.com/images/reviews/35558-image/Eten-M810-Review-Design-16.jpg

Example 8: BB Porsche design
This is also very nice! No weird colors, very very clean! But not suitable as a landscape keyboard, spacing the keys will look totally weird! And I cannot make these buttons at home :p
http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/blackberry_porsche_design_p9981_review_sg_2-580x419.jpg

Example 9: The almighty E90, "The Communicator"
This keyboard has everything! But half of the keyboard is clean and black. The other half is littered with blue icons...
http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/images/news/3gsm_e90_01.jpg
Just kidding, this is a 2007 machine.... Brought out in the iPhone-year. Welcome to the furure (http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/item/4891_Welcome_to_the_future-the_Noki.php) they said... Sigh.

This is why the need for this thread is great! Each one has big big design flaws, which could have been easily prevented! No innovation has took place with the phone keyboard, absolutely none.

We will have to design and build our own I guess, but which features can be combined to make something good? That look good (and not boring!!), is practical and feels good!

Zeta

2013-10-18, 22:05

Hi dirkvl,

I have not yet had the chance to use a phone with hardware keyboard, but was interested in n900, e7 or Lauta from the start. I am neither good at mechanical design... So here are just some though about was I would like to have, with not much experience. My goal is to use onscreen keyboard for one handed portrait usage with small things, and switch to hardware landscape keyboard to benefit from the whole screen surface for content display, and have easier access to special keys, like the ":", "TAB" or "ESC" button for ssh and vi command line. Also should allow to type easily numbers, mail/websites/ip addresses, and if possible parentheses and brackets (can still be a 2 key combination for these).

Nokia E7:
What I always liked about E7 is the mechanism and integration with the device. When folded it is hard to see that it is not a N8, as there is not a clear separation between phone and keyboard. And when pulled, the inclination take the role of a "stand" to put it on a table and simply watch it.

Motorola Photon / HTC touch pro:
As all other 5 lines keyboard, this allow to have numbers without key combinations. Still no "ESC" key ?

Nokia 5730:
I don't see the second function key ? But yeah, it would allow to reach left keys while holding function key with right thumb, and right keys with left thumb on FN key. Would be a lot more ergonomic.

iPhone5Mod magnetic keyboard:
agree that the spacebar must be in the center, to be reachable by both thumbs.

Eten M810:
Not the design I prefer, but backlight is a real feature.

The almighty E90, "The Communicator"
I really like this one. Could be made better, but overall, it seems everything is here.
The pad is way better than the distinct arrows key that are where they can on other designs. For shortcuts that uses CTRL or ALT + arrow (like to navigate per word in text editor), it is better to keep the pad on the right side.

Finally, using my phone a lot as a music player, it would be convenient to have on the side (to be availlable even when keyboard is folded) at least 2 keys "Play/Pause", and "Next", so that they can be reach directly in the pocket, whithout having to get it out to change song, or start/stop it.

I will try to summarize all this:
- design so that the phone look as a single piece when the keyboard is folded
- allow the keyboard to be used as a stand for the phone
- 5 rows to provide direct access to all letters + numbers
- space in the middle
- all special keys : control, meta, shift, 2 x function (one on each side), escape (absolutely needed and usually not availlable)
- pad in place of arrow keys
- music controls on the side "play/pause" + "next". Could also add a camera button for direct access?
- some kind of backlight. keys name backlight is the top for usage, key contour backlight is the top for the look. Power consumption has to be checked here to choose the more efficient way to do it.
- if there is a caps lock, or num lock (FN lock?) function, then leds should be provided to show it

about how to make the keys : Silicon rubber ? hard plastic keys on a springy button ?
And how to make the foldable mechanism : straight like n900 ? inclined like E7 as it could double as a stand ?

misterc

2013-10-19, 08:32

key layout as E7, N950 & all
maybe ESC & Tab keys, if not physical at least directly accessible via SYM / Fn / whatever (now NE arrow) but...
long hold of SYM / Fn / whatever (now NE arrow) pops up a virtual keyboard which, obviously, can be entirely customized.

and it could still add a couple of different physical designs for e.g. Arabic (?) vs Asiatic vs. Cyrillic vs. Latin vs. ???
guess Asiatic would need a couple more "localizations".
Arabic maybe too?

N810 kbd looked pretty good too; drop 2nd Ctrl for a ESC & all done :D

www.rzr.online.fr

2013-10-19, 08:52

Here is my feeling about hwkb I was able to use :

n810 > E7 > N950 > BB10 alphac

Egon

2013-10-19, 11:55

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:N810-open.jpg
The layout of the N810 keyboard is quite acceptable. AFAIR the Chr key has the same function as the Sym key of later models. But to make the keyboard symmetrical, I'd remove the 5-way rocker and the Menu button on the left, and put 4 arrow keys where N810 has the - key and below the : - + keys. The ESC, Tab, Shift, Sym, Fn and Ctrl keys can be dispersed on the bottom row of keys and in an extra key column on the left-thumb side. That makes 12 key columns in total. The straight sliding mechanism of N810 is a useful reference for the design of an OH keyboard. But perhaps the keyboard should slide out a bit more, perhaps about 65% of its total height.

dirkvl

2013-10-19, 12:13

The layout of the N810 keyboard is quite acceptable.

I'd remove the 5-way rocker and the Menu button on the left, and put 4 arrow keys where N810 has the Ctrl, + and Shift keys. The ESC, Tab, Shift, Sym, Fn and Ctrl keys can be dispersed on the bottom row of keys and in an extra key column on the left-thumb side. That makes 12 key columns in total.

This is what I mean, besides that it looks cheap and boring, it has a far from perfect key arrangement. There a no current keyboards IMO that are remotely usable as a starting design.

If we would start from scratch, with no constraints, how would the keys be arranged? What would it look like?

Egon

2013-10-19, 12:43

This is what I mean, besides that it looks cheap and boring, ...
Would you specify what exactly makes keyboards boring, in general?
I'm asking, because the most fancy keyboard designs tend to be impractical in use.
The least boring but yet practical keyboards that I've seen are split keyboards. For example, this keyboard of Nokia E70 is relatively practical (considering how small it is): http://newlaunches.com/archives/nokia_e70_gets_fcc_approval.php. I mention it here only as a reference of arts design, and not for the OH of Jolla.

dirkvl

2013-10-19, 13:03

Would you specify what exactly makes keyboards boring, in general?

The N810's keyboard is grey-on-grey, made entirely out of plastic, semi-glossy, the lettering is dark-grey, not backlit, the blue is different but does not stand out. I cannot find a single argument why people would find this keyboard 'nice-looking' or 'innovating' or 'fresh'. It is really really boring.

I'm asking, because the most fancy keyboard designs tend to be impractical in use.

Precisely, the Eten M810 got terrible reviews on its keyboard, but looks nice IMO! I think this problem comes from a very simple thing:
Each keyboard is designed to be nice OR practical!
In case of the N810, a powerful mini-computer, they were not building a 'design-phone' e.g. function over form.
In case of the Eten, they hired some crazy designer who made a beautiful keyboard, but without any knowledge of ergonomics or practicality, it turned out it wasn't usable.

So, here arises a problem: I will not settle for a bad keyboard! Neither should anyone else! Why would we?? How can we do what no phone manufacturer has done before; design a practical ánd stunning keyboard?? It should not be difficult!

misterc

2013-10-19, 14:42

yeah, forgot that... backlit
preferably a backlit that is always ON when the keyboard is extended
hate it when N900's kbd goes "dark" 'cuz the light sensor feels it might be bright enough :mad:
the white marking on black keys is definitely the best readable.

misterc

2013-10-19, 14:55

[...]
So, here arises a problem: I will not settle for a bad keyboard! Neither should anyone else! Why would we?? How can we do what no phone manufacturer has done before; design a practical ánd stunning keyboard?? It should not be difficult!

why problem?
this is the whole idea behind the Other Half... to each her / his own
back color? 5 bucks & done. well. probably a little more for all the "theme changing stuff"
fancy looking keybaord, just to "socialize"? this is probably what most 3rd party will go for, for obvious reasons.
a technically well designed complete keyboard? unless Jolla makes it themselves in the line of N9{0;5}0, i doubt we'll get it :( :confused:

misterc

2013-10-19, 15:20

how about this? (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/2008Computex_Best_Choice_Gigabyte_MID_M528.jpg)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/2008Computex_Best_Choice_Gigabyte_MID_M528.jpg/800px-2008Computex_Best_Choice_Gigabyte_MID_M528.jpg

number layout (dial pad) strikes me as most annoying feature - one of those "socializing" example :mad:.
easy to fix :D

minimos

2013-10-19, 15:52

yeah, forgot that... backlit
preferably a backlit that is always ON when the keyboard is extended

And perhaps the backlight should be provided by RGB LEDs, so that it can follow the color tone from the current Sailfish 'ambiance' ;)

dirkvl

2013-10-19, 15:58

And perhaps the backlight should be provided by RGB LEDs, so that it can follow the color tone from the current Sailfish 'ambiance' ;)

Now we are talking! It could follow the phone like you said, or total disco mode!
http://cf2.thefancy.com/default/268253665_89f1378028fa.jpeg

Zeta

2013-10-19, 17:26

If we would start from scratch, with no constraints, how would the keys be arranged? What would it look like?Here is the result of playing some time with gimp and starting from the design of a full QWERTY desktop layout (from Gnome3 layout manager), and trying to arrange it to something that can be embedded.

http://i.imgur.com/x3hjeF8.png

All caracters for the keys are shown here, as I started from gnome layout manager where the goal is to see all key functions.
In a final design, we should make the main key text bigger and translucent (for backlight), and secondary functions could be shown as smaller text, and could not be backligthed.

The directional pad should something as found on the E90 or N810, and in the middle is the "enter" key. This gives all the buttons we need for typing text and navigating (page up/down, home, end).

There is also both "Delete" and "backspace", as it is handy for typing text, and lot of software need the delete key to delete something (for exemple spreasheet editor usually have different function for both).

The "Compose Level 3" key is the "Fn" key. It is availlable on both sides, as are shift and control, to ease making shortcuts. There is also the "Alt", "Super" (a.k.a. the "Windows" key) and Escape keys.

From the 105 keys desktop keyboard, only the "insert", "print", "scroll lock", "pause", "Menu" (the key that give the drop down menu, like mouse right click), F1-F12 and numerical pad are not availlable.

Then I tried to style the layout to get the idea behind the backlighted keyboard of the M810 (keys outline on 2 sides) and also the key names.
I am not good at design, so I know these pictures are not really good looking, but it gives the idea (working from bitmaps and not vector file don't help either...)

Here with a blue backlight :
http://i.imgur.com/hqgq76p.png

And then changing the backlight to orange to match the case color :
http://i.imgur.com/rhwbqoL.png

There is a lot of keys there, but as the phone is a bit bigger than an E7, it could fit. Some keys could also be made a bit smaller (line the bottom row height). I still haven't shown the media player buttons on the side, but imagine they are there !

What do you think (except that I should learn to use gimp :D )?
Would the keys not be too small ? In that case what keys should we throw out ?

dirkvl

2013-10-19, 21:39

Wow, this looks quite intimidating! I like that is fills the entire space, imagine this with all possible backlight colors! :D

The double-size backspace and big spacebar are nice too! Arrow keys needs some getting used to. They take in a lot of space, is this proportionate to how much you would use it? Arrow keys on N900 were definitely too small!

Zeta

2013-10-19, 22:06

Wow, this looks quite intimidating! I like that is fills the entire space, imagine this with all possible backlight colors! :DYes, I tried to fit as much as possible, to avoid needing too many key combination to type things. This is the main problem I have with on screen keyboard : constantly switching from the letters layout, to numbers, to another set of special characters, to simply type a mail address. Here everything is there, with maybe a shift or function key to hold simultaneously. It also have easy access to symbols used for programming so that you can easily edit a bunch of qml directly on the phone ;).
For the fact that it uses all the space, we have to check if it is feasible (due to the camera lense and the slide mechanism), and ergonomic (keys on the side might not be that easy to reach, but as they are not the most used, It should be ok ?).

The double-size backspace and big spacebar are nice too! Arrow keys needs some getting used to. They take in a lot of space, is this proportionate to how much you would use it? Arrow keys on N900 were definitely too small!For the size, I don't really know... I started with nine buttons the same size as the others, and then tried to display them in the idea of the N810. I kept the size during the process, but made the "Enter" button a bit larger than the others.
This is only just a draft, and all this can be tuned a lot better, but it is not easy to see what is too large or too small when designing it on a computer screen. Monday (I have no printer at home...), I will try to print it real scale to see if it is ok.
If you have ideas about how to improve it in the meantime (move/remove/add keys, change size...), I can adjust it.

Egon

2013-10-19, 22:32

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/2008Computex_Best_Choice_Gigabyte_MID_M528.jpg/800px-2008Computex_Best_Choice_Gigabyte_MID_M528.jpg
...
This keyboard has a layout which is perhaps the best 4-row keyboard that I've seen:
- correct number of keys for the language-localizing of most European languages
- well balanced compromise between the size of keys and the available space
http://talk.maemo.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=33661&stc=1&d=1382428962

But I would make some changes to it:

Move the four arrow keys and the number keys (of the Fn layer") one step to the left.
Reason: the frequently pressed arrow keys are in the lower right-hand corner, near the palm bottom, which is the most difficult area of the keyboard. By moving the arrow keys to the left their use can be made easier.
Move the Enter key one step lower (to the Alt key of the photo).
Reason: the two keys on the right-hand side of the L key are essential for the localizing for most European languages. By moving the Enter key away, the localizing can be made easier. For the localizing will be needed also 1 to 3 more keys, depending on the language. Those keys are found near the ArrowUp key by replacing some punctuation characters with the additional characters of each language.

There are innumerable other reasons which affect the layout design. I don't explain them here, but go straight to my suggestion of how the layout of the above photo could be changed and localized:

Size and shape of keys: like in the photo
1st approximation fo the number of keys: like in the photo, but moved 1 key width to the left.
Labels on the keys:

Esc Q W E R T Y U I O P Backspace
Tab A S D F G H J K L ; '
⌂⌂⌂ Z X C V B N M / ↑ = Enter
Alt Fn Sym , . Space - ← ↓ → Ctrl
In the above elementary text-format diagram the bottom row is misaligned from what it would be - see the photo: the ↑ key would be above the ↓ key. The "Shift arrow" is written in the diagram as ⌂⌂⌂, in order to align better the key columns. All the keys are supposed to have the same size, except the two keys wide Spacebar, like in the photo. The widths of the bottom-row keys can be adjusted later, if need be.
The Ctrl key is on the right-hand side, in order to make it easy to make the most common shortcuts: Ctrl + A, Z, X, C, V, B.
Those keys which in the above diagram have a red character are the 'language-localizable keys'; those keys where go the Ö Ä Ü ß keys of the German Qwertz keyboard, for example:
Esc Q W E R T Z U I O P Backspace
Tab A S D F G H J K L Ö Ä
⌂⌂⌂ Y X C V B N M Ü ↑ ß Enter
Alt Fn Sym , . Space - ← ↓ → Ctrl
On the Scandinavian Qwerty keyboard there are labels Æ Ø Å on the keys which have Ö Ä ß on the German Qwertz keyboard (for 6 languages, actually there are double or triple letter labels on two keys: ÖÆ ÄØ).
And for the Qwerty/Qwertz layout on the same keyboard, there are double labels also on the YZ and ZY keys. Now, please don't stick to details, good localizers surely know what labels there are. The full-size Qwerty keyboard is the most important reference, but some modifications need to be done to make it possible to use the same keyboard variant (keymat) for several languages. For example, with only a few minor modifications, a special 7-language keyboard can be made for Germany and Nordic countries (Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Estonia), and perhaps a couple of more countries.
http://talk.maemo.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=33642&stc=1&d=1382222624
The number keypad area is highlighted here with bold blue numbers. They are written as the combinations of letter keys and the Fn key.
Esc Q W E R T 1 2 3 O P Backspace
Tab A S D F G 4 5 6 L ; '
⌂⌂⌂ Z X C V B 7 8 9 ↑ = Enter
Alt Fn Sym , . Space 0 ← ↓ → Ctrl
The 0 key is below the 8 key, like in the photo (but moved next to the Spacebar). This diagram only displays the principle were the number labels are; the other characters of the Fn + letter-key combinations are not marked in the above diagram. (those labels to be printed in the same color as the Fn key).
There is no CAPS LOCK key (press the ⌂ twice to turn on CAPS LOCK, like on virtual keyboards). But there is the Sym key, for the "multitapping" method to enter letter variants, and for an array of additional special characters and symbols (opened by pressing once the Sym key). If more space is wanted, perhaps the functions of the Sym and Alt key combined to use the same key.

Zeta

2013-10-20, 01:55

Hi Egon,
Size and shape of keys: like in the photoThat makes quite big keys seeing the size of the device (2 cm taller than the Jolla) and small number of keys, if we compare with other phones with keyboard. It is perhaps the reason you find it better ?

Those keys which in the above diagram have a red character are the 'language-localizable keys'; those keys where go the Ö Ä Ü ß keys of the German Qwertz keyboard, for exampleI find that French keyboard tends to not be good on small keyboards. I usually stick to english Qwerty which works better, as French is still readable when you throw out accents...

Anyway, as we are talking of this, here is the "AZERTY" layout we have on french keyboards (green for the basic set, orange for the french specific set):
http://i.imgur.com/XrkpAPQ.png

Differences with QWERTY are :
- A <-> Q
- Z <-> W
- M <-> ";"
- special characters are spread out everywhere
- frequently used accented letter are shared with numbers (é, è, ç, à). The HUGE difference is that numbers are reached using the shift key, whereas in english, number are directly reachable and shift key is for special characters!
- there is also the "ù"
- for other less common accents (like ê, ï, ...), we have to first type the "^" or with shift "¨" key, then the letter...

It doesn't really fits well on small keyboard (looks like german or scandinavian fits better), so I generally prefer to stay on QWERTY on small devices, even if I use AZERTY on my computers.

Egon

2013-10-20, 09:05

Hi Egon,
That makes quite big keys seeing the size of the device (2 cm taller than the Jolla) and small number of keys, if we compare with other phones with keyboard. It is perhaps the reason you find it better ?

No, I don't know the size of the phone and keyboard in your photo. I mean how aethetically well balanced the layout of the keyboard is, there are all the four arrow keys, enough keys for language-localizing, etc. And it fits to a small size. Naturally I'd also appreciate an extra row of keys, but it may be difficult to build a 5-row keyboard for Jolla. If the keyboard slides out 70% or more of its total height, the remaining length of the rails may not be enough to make it durable enough (if you drop the phone + OH-keyboard, for example).

I find that French keyboard tends to not be good on small keyboards. I usually stick to english Qwerty which works better, as French is still readable when you throw out accents...
Yes, the French Azerty layout is quite a challenge. And there are enough challenges also with the localizing of other European languages. So, let's analyze them. To get an idea of what will be needed and what kind of compromises could be made with them, please activate the Español, French, French (Canada), Italiano, Magyar, Polski, Português and Română to N9 phone. Then edit text with MeeTxtEdit or Notes application, and change the keyboard layout by sliding your finger on the keyboard, starting from the left or right edge of the screen. You will notice that with 2 ... 4 "localizable" keys it is possible to use another variant of the 4 x 12 keyboard for several languages. The "localizable" keys are the same which have red labels in the layout picture of my previous comment. Depending on the activated keyboard-driver variant, they can work as sticky accent keys (like the accent keys of the Spanish, Italian, Hungarian and Polish keyboards of N9, and like the accent keys of full-size HW keyboards), or as a letter (such as Ñ for Spanish, Ç for Portuguese, Catalan etc, as well as Ł Ę Ą for Polish, ...). But the text entry on the new kind of multilingual keyboard does not match completely with the ease of choosing more letter variants on virtual keyboards (done by tapping and holding your key on a key and sliding onto the wanted character). But thanks to the use of four "localizable" keys, also those letter variants can be entered with sticky accent keys, for most languages. For example, for Portuguese texts, just like they can be written with the Portuguese full-size Qwerty keyboard.

Because on the relatively small outbowing keys it is difficult to add more than 2 or 3 backlighted labels, the labels on the "localizable" keys won't match with the letters of all the languages of a multilingual keyboard variant. But because there are not more than 2 ... 4 "localizable" keys, they can be memorized easily, because all the other labels (also those of the Fn layer) match with what you get with each key. For example, even if there were printed ÇÑ on a key, it does prevent Polish people to use it for their Ł letter. Or, if a key has the ^Ę label, Hungarian people can use it as the sticky ˝ key for their ű and ő letters. In this way the number of country or language specific kayboard variants (i.e. the number of keymats) can be reduced, just like can be done with the 7 or more languages of Northern Europe.

Although for France can be made double labels on the QA, WZ, AQ, and ZW keys, a separate Azerty keymat might be more useful for France (then also the new kind of key coding on the right-thumb side of the N and L keys would not become too complicated). Another reason is that the text entry is very different also in other respects. For example, part of the "French" letters are typed with sticky accent keys and part are written with their individual keys on full-sized Azerty keyboards. So, even though the French Azerty variant of the 4 x 12 HW keyboard would not be 100% perfect, it would match with the needs of most French people a lot better than the Qwerty/Qwertz variants of the same OH-keyboard. Also a "South European & Latin American" Azerty/Qwerty/Qwertz keyboard (one with QA, WZ, AQ, ZWY and YZ keys) might be preferred by French people, instead of the English Qwerty keyboard.

stefanmohl

2013-10-20, 16:31

Lumiaman

2013-10-20, 17:03

N900 keyboard was perfect, but I have to say that from economy point of view, very few people will buy it. If I was Jolla, I wouldn't waste effort of a small company on physical keyboard. If it is popular enough, some other company may develop it. Just like you can get excellent physical keyboard for iphone from third party sellers.

GizmoSmith

2013-10-20, 18:02

pichlo

2013-10-20, 18:07

I was a little concerned the first time I saw [the N900 keyboard layout], but my experience is that it makes no difference at all.

+1

So I am wondering, is there really a real reason for a larger backspace, enter, delete, shift, ctrl and so on? Or is that perhaps just a myth?

I have always assumed that larger control keys - which, incidentally, always happen to be at the edge - are nothing but a side-effect of the staggered layout of the main keys. To keep the left and right edge nicely level, the edge keys have to be wider. Nothing more to it.

Zeta

2013-10-20, 18:30

Just saw this pic at www.jollausers.com (http://www.jollausers.com/2013/10/jollahqs-sneak-peaks-on-twitter-job-openings-as-well/)
http://www.jollausers.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/BVP8L32CMAE3mez.png-large-648x375.png

Did you notice that little Jolla logo on the right side ? ;)It's only fan art, but done great with attention to details !
Coming from here (as said in the article source) : https://twitter.com/capricotwi04/status/383927674147581952

I don't know which keyboard he took as a reference, seeing the "SMS/MMS" and "Mail" direct access buttons ?

Egon

2013-10-20, 18:37

On the N900, the enter, delete and shift keys (and all other function keys) are all the same size as the standard keys. Only space is larger; exactly two standard keys wide (and to the side).

I was a little concerned the first time I saw this, but my experience is that it makes no difference at all. Having an enter key the same size as my 'a' key works just perfectly, and just like I rarely hit the wrong key when trying to type 'a', I rarely hit the wrong key when trying to type 'enter'.

So I am wondering, is there really a real reason for a larger backspace, enter, delete, shift, ctrl and so on? Or is that perhaps just a myth? Have other N900-users experienced problems with hitting the right key when they try to hit, for example, enter? Maybe a larger number of keys (duplicted ctrl and shift) or a tighter keyboard (less reach for distant keys) is more valuable than larger keys?
You stefanmohl are absolutely right about the size: the modifier and Enter keys do not need to be any larger than the letter keys, if also those keys have a spherical shape which is outbowing enough. If you look at the spherical key elements in the photo on top of the http://www.tactustechnology.com/technology.html page, you'll see that it will not become any easier to hit the correct key if you combine two adjacent key "bubbles" so that they get a cylindrical shape. The point is 'orientation': you will more or less subconsciously feel with your thumbtips where the center of each key is, prior to pressing the key.

So it is best to make also the Shift, Enter, Fn, Backspace, Sym keys as small as the other keys. Also spacebar could have the same size as the letter keys, but it best to make it two key widths wide, in order to make it easily identified. And please remember not to make the keys too flat!

On virtual keyboards it is OK to make keys like #123 and Shift larger than the letter keys, becauses on touch screens there is nothing which could help you to feel where the key centers are (orientation is helped mainly by your eyes only). Whether also the Enter key of a virtrual Qwerty keyboard should be a big one, depends on the purpose for which it is needed. Personally I think that the Enter key does not need to be especially la, in order to provide enough space for labels, such as OK, Send or Search, and the corresponding language-localized labels. What finally matters more is the place where you put a Send key, for example. I cannot understand the designers of some messaging applications which put a Send key close to the frequently hit Backspace key: if you accidentally hit the Send key (when trying to hit the Backspace), your unfinished message may be sent, if there is no "Are you sure..." reminder.

There are certain reasons why the modifier and Enter keys on the left and right-hand edges of full-sized Qwerty keys are made bigger than letter keys. One of them is the fact that those who have the more or less perfect "10-finger touch-typing" skill, hit those keys with their little fingers, the pointing and hitting accuracy of which is a lot worse than that of the other fingers of your hands.

Why some phone companies still try to make their Qwerty keyboards look like the appearance of full-size Qwerty keyboards? I believe that it is because of the ancient obsessions of arts designers and marketing people who don't know much about the ergonomics and other factors which affect text entry, and apparently do not want to listen to specialists. Their misconseption is that a Qwerty phone sells best if the keyboard looks like a 'real full-size keyboard'. For the same reason they are eager to make the outbowing keys lower than required by ergonomics (in order to make the phone 0.1 or 0.2 mm thinner), and to arrange the key columns tilted, more or less in the same way as on full-sized Qwerty keyboards. Actually there are no reasons to do so - it is better arrange the keys in vertical columns, like on the keyboard of http://talk.maemo.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=33642&stc=1&d=1382222624 . The result of such poor design is: most of the few hardware Qwerty keyboards on the market have a poor quality, which is one of the reasons why there are so many misconceptions of whether HW keyboards are needed or not. For these reasons it is the duty of people who know something about text entry and its ergonomics, to remind that it is not only the the "marketing specs" that matter - also certain facts of text entry should be taken into account.

Zeta

2013-10-20, 19:13

No, I don't know the size of the phone and keyboard in your photo. I mean how aethetically well balanced the layout of the keyboard is, there are all the four arrow keys, enough keys for language-localizing, etc. And it fits to a small size. Naturally I'd also appreciate an extra row of keys, but it may be difficult to build a 5-row keyboard for Jolla. If the keyboard slides out 70% or more of its total height, the remaining length of the rails may not be enough to make it durable enough (if you drop the phone + OH-keyboard, for example).The phone is 68mm large, so 70% would give 47mm out, and 20mm for support. If it is enough to hold it (I don't know... anyone can mesure this on a n900, e7 or n950 ?), then we can have 1cm tall key on 4 rows, or about 8mm tall keys on 5 rows.
For the width, the phone is 131mm. If 5mm on each side is enough for the sliding mechanisms, we have 120mm remaining.
So for a 12x4 matrix, keys would be about square of 1cm.
For 14x5 (the heavy layout I proposed), it would make them a square of about 8 mm.
I don't know what are the acceptable mini and maxi limits for key size...

So, even though the French Azerty variant of the 4 x 12 HW keyboard would not be 100% perfect, it would match with the needs of most French people a lot better than the Qwerty/Qwertz variants of the same OH-keyboard. After thinking a bit more of these problems, I now see that for myself I don't want a keyboard to only type text. What you propose is probably the way to go to provide a keyboard to fit SMS/Mail usage, for everyone.
What I want, is a developer keyboard that will allow me to do almost anything where I need to bring my laptop now (I work most of the day with embedded devices): take control of devices through SSH and use command line, and vi (so needs easy access to keys like Escape, :, |, >, <, &, ', ", `, $, ^, \, /, tab), take control though VNC of desktop application (so need to do almost any shortcut as possible... like CTRL or ALT+something) edit some code (needs symbols like [ ] ( ) { } # -> . _ " ' / \ : + - = * % | &), and finally naviguate more easily through text (so shortcuts like CTRL+Left/Right/Home to naviguate per words or to the top). Of course I also need to type text like for mails or sms, so the punctation is needed too (. , ; : ! ? ( ) " - ), some special characters (€, %, @) and numbers.
I can see now that we are not trying to solve the same problem. It may be that I am completely wrong and that this can be done with less keys using some combinations, and stay ergonomic.

If there are owners of n900 or n950 here that would share their feeling about that kind of usage, I would be really interested in their feedback !

Anyway the good point is this difference is only in the layouting (and key size obviously), but they still share everything else : the electronics, mechanical slide, backlight, ... can be the same.

Egon

2013-10-20, 19:59

It's only fan art, but done great with attention to details !
Coming from here (as said in the article source) : https://twitter.com/capricotwi04/status/383927674147581952

I don't know which keyboard he took as a reference, seeing the "SMS/MMS" and "Mail" direct access buttons ?

That "fan art" sample is just another "English only" keyboard: too few keys are available for decent language-localizing. Yes, some attention has been paid to details, but not enough to make it "international".
http://talk.maemo.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=33650&stc=1&d=1382299195
Fortunately this keyboard is easy to improve: shrink the Shift and Enter keys to the size of other keys, and you will get two more keys, which allows it to be localized for different languages; see my other posts in this thread. The keyboard can be improved further by replacing the marginal SMS/MMS and Mail direct access buttons with ordinary keys (for SYM and hyphen - for example). The UI of smartphones is full of all kinds of shortcuts and icons to messaging application. Therefore I don't see any reasons why the limited space of keyboards should be misused for the direct access buttons to messaging.

Zeta

2013-10-20, 20:41

That "fan art" sample is just another "English only" keyboard: Yes, I was simply refering to the image when saying great and with attention of details. When comparing to what I can do with gimp, this guy has made an image that look real !

The keyboard can be improved further by replacing the marginal SMS/MMS and Mail direct access buttons with ordinary keys (for SYM and hyphen - for example). Yes. My question of which keyboard he used as a reference was only to see how far in time he went to find such shortcuts. Not a single layout presented here had these, for the reason you explained.

Egon

2013-10-20, 21:09

The phone is 68mm large, so 70% would give 47mm out, and 20mm for support. If it is enough to hold it (I don't know... anyone can mesure this on a n900, e7 or n950 ?), then we can have 1cm tall key on 4 rows, or about 8mm tall keys on 5 rows.
For the width, the phone is 131mm. If 5mm on each side is enough for the sliding mechanisms, we have 120mm remaining.
So for a 12x4 matrix, keys would be about square of 1cm.
For 14x5 (the heavy layout I proposed), it would make them a square of about 8 mm.
I don't know what are the acceptable mini and maxi limits for key size...
I believe that no exact rule about the key sizes can be defined. Actually, it is not the exact size, but the shape and tactical feel (the "click" of the keys, etc) which matter most for keyboards on which you enter text with your thumbs. The dimension of each keys is rather the result of various dimensions, such as the maximum allowed distance to the most distant keys in the center of the keyboard.
I believe that more than 5 mm of free space will be needed on the edges of the keyboard. Also on top of the keyboard, where the edge of the phone is above the top edge of the visible part of the keyboard. Mock-up samples which have the final dimensions and weight will be needed for tests, because your grip on the phone + keyboard OH may be diffent from the grip you hold N900, for example - also the shape and thickness of the left and right edges affect the grip. The difference is caused by the fact that the center of gravity is quite low in the Qwerty half of N900, but in the combinations of Jolla + keyboard OH the center of gravity would be quite high in the Jolla phone.

After thinking a bit more of these problems, I now see that for myself I don't want a keyboard to only type text. What you propose is probably the way to go to provide a keyboard to fit SMS/Mail usage, for everyone.
What I want, is a developer keyboard that will allow me to do almost anything where I need to bring my laptop now (I work most of the day with embedded devices): take control of devices through SSH and use command line, and vi (so needs easy access to keys like Escape, :, |, >, <, &, ', ", `, $, ^, \, /, tab), take control though VNC of desktop application (so need to do almost any shortcut as possible... like CTRL or ALT+something) edit some code (needs symbols like [ ] ( ) { } # -> . _ " ' / \ : + - = * % | &), and finally naviguate more easily through text (so shortcuts like CTRL+Left/Right/Home to naviguate per words or to the top). Of course I also need to type text like for mails or sms, so the punctation is needed too (. , ; : ! ? ( ) " - ), some special characters (€, %, @) and numbers.
I can see now that we are not trying to solve the same problem. It may be that I am completely wrong and that this can be done with less keys using some combinations, and stay ergonomic. ...
Yes, some potential buyers of the keyboard OH apparently want a "Hacker's English-only keyboard", and some want an advanced HW keyboard on which they can write text in their own language(s), almost as easily as using a Qwerty keyboard which is localized to their own language(s). But finally the diffences of these 2 types of keyboards are quite small. Also with a 5 x 12 or 4 x 12 keyboard with 4 arrow keys you will be able to enter a wide choice of characters: the :, |, >, <, &, ', ", `, $, ^, \, /, etc characters will be found on the keys, in the same color as the Fn key. And a wider choice of less frequently needed symbols and characters could be found on a virtual keyboard array, which would open by pressing the SYM key. And the whole choice of letter variants could be entered both on a virtual keyboard and by combining the SYM key with a letter key, quite in the same way as with the AltGr key of full-sized keyboards. The use of the suggested "5 x 15 hacker's keyboard" would be quite limited, because the language-specific letters of each language simply are not entered with the combinations of letter keys and modifier keys (Fn, Sym, etc). For most European languages will be needed typically 2 ... 4 keys (of letter variants, or sticky accents) which are found on the right-hand side of the keyboard. English and perhaps Dutch are among the few exceptions in this respect.

It looks that by now practically all smartphone companies have gone wrong by designing HW and virtual keyboards first for the English language. The best way to avoid that mistake is to design the layout so that it can be localized to several languages. The best way to accomplish this is to add about 4 extra keys, and in the first prototypes not to stick too tightly to the English layout only. How to do it can be read in my other comments in this thread.

minimos

2013-10-21, 06:00

I don't know which keyboard he took as a reference, seeing the "SMS/MMS" and "Mail" direct access buttons ?
Magic of google images: save the picture, cut everything that is not the keyboard layout, pass it to GI, and the answer is: HTC S740 :D

BTW: let's suppose that Jolla is indeed preparing a OH kbd for worldwide users. If 100 is the cost of designing & manufacturing a keyboard in only one possible layout, does anybody know what would be the cost to support many layouts ?

Kangal

2013-10-21, 06:47

Haha I thought that device was long forgotten!

Actually the HTC S740 was one of the inspirations for my keyboard layout.
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/4113/3designp3ultimate.png

As I said before, this is what I think is the pinnacle of a hardware keyboard for a ~5in device.
Its function over form at its max.
Keeping the important keys, and hiding the rest as Secondary ones (Activated via Ctrl), and do away with the rest. A small light indicates when Ctrl or the Shift (Caps Lock) is active. The circle at the right is actually a Trackball (think Blackberry) which helps control the cursor with awesome tactile feedback.

All in all, keep everything big, bland, easy to see and type away!

PS That Jolla photo is actually just a render.

jalyst

2013-10-21, 06:48

Daneel

2013-10-21, 08:43

Its function over form at its max.

You can say that again, its so ugly it will probably make my eyes bleed.

dirkvl

2013-10-21, 09:08

As I said before, this is what I think is the pinnacle of a hardware keyboard for a ~5in device.
Its function over form at its max.
Keeping the important keys, and hiding the rest as Secondary ones (Activated via Ctrl), and do away with the rest. A small light indicates when Ctrl or the Shift (Caps Lock) is active. The circle at the right is actually a Trackball (think Blackberry) which helps control the cursor with awesome tactile feedback.

Wow, I dig the idea of the BB trackball! That worked great right? Takes in a lot less space also than the 9 key arrows!

Egon

2013-10-21, 10:13

I was recently skimming through this & thought it was quite pertinent to this thread...
http://lifehacker.com/should-i-use-an-alternative-keyboard-layout-like-dvorak-1447772004
Should we be considering one of the alternative layouts instead of the standard QWERTY?
Seems the debate's not fully settled on whether alternate layouts truly are better WRT: speed/accuracy/comfort.
If you mean those alternaties which are shown in the 2nd and 3rd picture, yes, at least in theory they could be provided as alternatives. Techically it is easy to add the English variant of the Dvorak layout to the choice of layout options, because it would consist of a single component: a variant of the keymat (+ special keyboard driver which can be installed like any application). Other language variants of the Dvorak layout would hardly be feasible, because AFAIK outside North America and UK, Dvorak layout is not popular.

I believe, however, that the other layout options have a lot higher priority. The German Qwertz keymat, Cyrillic (Russian + English) keymat, French Azerty keymat, Spanish/Portuguese/Catalan/Italian Qwerty keymat, Scandinavian Qwerty keymat, Chinese+English keymat, Arabic+English keymat etc. With all of them also English text can be entered easily, but it may be useful to add also the English layout to these options (so that you could find a couple of characters, such as Apostrophe ' in its standard place of the English layout).
It is possible to combine some of these layout options to use the same keymat. For example, with double labels on five letter keys, a special German Qwertz / Scandinavian Qwerty keymat can be made easily, for 7 or more languages. For details, please see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1381479#post1381479

... let's suppose that Jolla is indeed preparing a OH kbd for worldwide users. If 100 is the cost of designing & manufacturing a keyboard in only one possible layout, does anybody know what would be the cost to support many layouts ?
I guess that the cost (including all logistic expenses) might be around 110 for big market areas (USA, UK, France, Germany, Spain+Portugal´+Latin America, Italy, Poland, Russia, India, China...), if the OH variants are made with keymats. This is extremely difficult to estimate, because the share of logistic and design expenses depends a lot on how many OHs are sold. For the smallest market areas (Czech, Croatia, Greece, etc, if keymats are made for those languages), the expenses can be a lot more, perhaps more than 200. But these expenses are only theoretical. I'd say that if there is only a single keyboard variable (more or less an "English only" or "English mainly" or "Hacker's keyboard"), the expenses can grow very high (> 160), because the OH simply would not sell in large quantities (exept in USA; UK, India, and in the "hackers" market). So, I see that more than 5 language-specific keyboard options (keymats) must be made available.

In mass production the price of the keymat can be very low, perhaps a couple of Euros - but it is the design and logistics (managing all the product variants, delivery etc) which costs a lot more.

Keymat is a flexible plate of plastic, rubber or silicone which is put on the PCB of the keyboard. The rigid key tops are fixed on the keymat, so that they match with the switching dome below the keymat. Keymat is the standard techinique to make the logistics and manuacturing of optional keyboard variants feasible. The domes and backlight LEDs are soldered to the PCB of the keyboard, and the keymat is a "loose" component, which contains no eletronics. To disperse the light from the LEDs, between the keymat and PCB there can be a transparent plastic plate with holes for the moving key cap and the domes. In theory the keymat could be installed by the OH owner, but (at least when integrated in a phone) its installation in practice would be almost as difficult as the installation of a new battery to N9 or N900. In some phone models there is a grid above the keymat, but there is no grid on the keymat of Nokia 9300 and 9500, for example. AFAIK, the keymats are the logistically easiest and most economical way to deliver the language or country specific keyboard options (and also the most user-friendly, if its installation can be made easily, even if you need a screwdriver to make its installation).

dirkvl

2013-10-21, 13:12

The circle at the right is actually a Trackball (think Blackberry) which helps control the cursor with awesome tactile feedback.

Okay crazy, trackball is totally possible (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9320) and not complex to integrate in a keyboard! The only thing is that is not a small component e.g. it will make the keyboard thicker..

What do you guys think, is a trackball preferrable to a arrow-pad?
http://www.randomprocess.ca/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/bb8310/trackball.jpg

Keymat is a flexible plate of plastic, rubber or silicone which is put on the PCB of the keyboard. The rigid key tops are fixed on the keymat, so that they match with the switching dome below the keymat. Keymat is the standard techinique to make the logistics and manuacturing of optional keyboard variants feasible. The domes and backlight LEDs are soldered to the PCB of the keyboard, and the keymat is a "loose" component, which contains no eletronics. To disperse the light from the LEDs, between the keymat and PCB there can be a transparent plastic plate with holes for the moving key cap and the domes.

This sounds like a great idea! Easy customization for different countries is definitely preferrable. Personally I would like a full metal keyboard, bus for rubber versions this would be perfect!

txus

2013-10-21, 14:02

Okay crazy, trackball is totally possible (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9320) and not complex to integrate in a keyboard!

What do you guys think, is a trackball preferable to a arrow-pad?

Trackpad: Definitely! But IMO, from a right-handed person point of view, it would be positioned better on the left. We usually use the left hand as a support hand, while doing stuff with the right. If the trackpad is on the left, this means we can naturally touch the screen, press a button, or even keep on cooking with the right hand, while still being able to scroll or zoom or whatever.

Again, my opinion as a right-handed person. Any left-handed person in the house that cares to comment on this?

Anyway, just an idea! Keep going, this project is awesome! :)

Egon

2013-10-21, 14:45

Trackpad: Definitely! But IMO, from a right-handed person point of view, it would be positioned better on the left. We usually use the left hand as a support hand, while doing stuff with the right. If the trackpad is on the left, this means we can naturally touch the screen, press a button, or even keep on cooking with the right hand, while still being able to scroll or zoom or whatever.

Again, my opinion as a right-handed person. Any left-handed person in the house that cares to comment on this?

Anyway, just an idea! Keep going, this project is awesome! :)
Yes, the design of keyboard could be made easier by putting the pointing device (5-way or 9-way rocker, trackball or perhaps even the 4 arrow keys) on the LEFT end of the keyboard. Such a solution can also help making the keyboard symmetric. The center line between the left and right-thumb halves is between the T-G.B and Y-H-N key columns. This means that there can be, for example, 2 + 5 key columns on the left and 5 + 1 +1 key columns on the right. Here with 2 + 5 columns I mean the "2 keys wide space for the pointing device + modifier keys" + QWERT keys. "5 + 1 + 1" columns mean the YUIOP + Backspace key + 1-key wide margin (perhaps without any keys). Or, if the Backspace is not put on the right side of the P key, there can be a language-localized key, exactly in the same place as on full-size Qwertty keyboards: Å for Scandinavia, Ü for Germany, ´ for Spain+Latin America, etc. The right-thumb end of the keyboard always tends to be too crowderd (2 .. 4 localizable keys, Backspace key, Enter key, Ctrl key, 4 arrow keys,...). By moving the 4 arrow keys to the left-thumb end, there would be enough space for all the essential keys in the right-thumb end.

On the keyboard OH of Jolla there is one more reason to put the pointing device in the lower left-thumb corner. There may be a hole in the upper left-thumb corner. That hole matches with the camera lens, allowing you to photograph thru the hole without sliding out the keyboard. Because the camera in in the middle of the top (left) end of Jolla phone, the hole will become visible in the left-thumb corner of the keyboard when you slide out the keyboard. Because the hole would be close to the Q key, on the left-thumb side of the Q-A-Z key columns is left an empty area, the middle and lower part of which can be used for the pointing device or arrow keys.

I'm right-handed, but I do not mind using the pointing device with my left thumb. Also for phone use I prefer keeping the phone in my left hand: then my better (right) is free to do other tasks while calling: to open a door lock with a key, for example.

mrsellout

2013-10-21, 14:54

txus

2013-10-21, 15:02

dirkvl

2013-10-21, 15:04

I believe, however, that the other layout options have a lot higher priority. The German Qwertz keymat, Cyrillic (Russian + English) keymat, French Azerty keymat, Spanish/Portuguese/Catalan/Italian Qwerty keymat, Scandinavian Qwerty keymat, Chinese+English keymat, Arabic+English keymat etc. With all of them also English text can be entered easily, but it may be useful to add also the English layout to these options (so that you could find a couple of characters, such as Apostrophe ' in its standard place of the English layout).
It is possible to combine some of these layout options to use the same keymat. For example, with double labels on five letter keys, a special German Qwertz / Scandinavian Qwerty keymat can be made easily, for 7 or more languages. For details, please see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1381479#post1381479

I guess that the cost (including all logistic expenses) might be around 110 for big market areas (USA, UK, France, Germany, Spain+Portugal´+Latin America, Italy, Poland, Russia, India, China...), if the OH variants are made with keymats. This is extremely difficult to estimate, because the share of logistic and design expenses depends a lot on how many OHs are sold. For the smallest market areas (Czech, Croatia, Greece, etc, if keymats are made for those languages), the expenses can be a lot more, perhaps more than 200. But these expenses are only theoretical. I'd say that if there is only a single keyboard variable (more or less an "English only" or "English mainly" or "Hacker's keyboard"), the expenses can grow very high (> 160), because the OH simply would not sell in large quantities (exept in USA; UK, India, and in the "hackers" market). So, I see that more than 5 language-specific keyboard options (keymats) must be made available.

This means that there can be, for example, 2 + 5 key columns on the left and 5 + 1 +1 key columns on the right. Here with 2 + 5 columns I mean the "2 keys wide space for the pointing device + modifier keys" + QWERT keys. "5 + 1 + 1" columns mean the YUIOP + Backspace key + 1-key wide margin (perhaps without any keys). Or, if the Backspace is not put on the right side of the P key, there can be a language-localized key, exactly in the same place as on full-size Qwertty keyboards: Å for Scandinavia, Ü for Germany, ´ for Spain+Latin America, etc.

????? -TL;DR?-

Perhaps leave the whole azerty/qwertz/üä/whatever layout 'till a later stage, because this is a lot of text and way to specific for now.

How about sticking the trackball on the reverse side, so you use it with your middle right finger, whilst using your thumbs for typing. The placement could be at an equal distance from the bottom as the camera is to the top, and recessed.

The LG-G2 has volume buttons on the back and HTC One Max has a fingerprint scanner on the back and I believe this did not get good reviews!

Egon

2013-10-21, 15:05

How about sticking the trackball on the reverse side, so you use it with your middle right finger, whilst using your thumbs for typing. The placement could be at an equal distance from the bottom as the camera is to the top, and recessed.
Good idea! Perhaps the trackball or another pointing device on the reverse side of the keyboard OH can be built in its upper part, which remains behind the phone when you slide the keyboard out (downwards). In that place there will be more space than under the keymat and PCB (if the keyboard OH is thinner than 8 mm, for example). You could then use the pointing device with the index or middle finger of your right hand. But can you build a trackball in such a thin keyboard OH? Perhaps a touchpad is more feasible.

Even if there were such an analog pointing device, the four arrow keys would be needed anyway on the keyboard. Or how could you make with a touchpad the same operations as those of Ctrl+Up, Ctrl+Right, for example?

After all, is an analog pointing device needed on the keyboard OH ? After all, there already is the touch screen on the phone. So, a rocker key or four arrow keys on the keyboard OH may be enough.

juiceme

2013-10-21, 16:17

How about sticking the trackball on the reverse side, so you use it with your middle right finger, whilst using your thumbs for typing. The placement could be at an equal distance from the bottom as the camera is to the top, and recessed.

My thought exactly, you only beat me in pointing that out... I had a Compaq laptop once that had the trackball on the underside of the display, in the right corner. Funny though it looked it was pretty neat placement for it actually.

On a mobile device sized aroung 5" the logical placement would be stack middle on the back ot the keyboard, accessible with either hand.

It could also be a touchpad area, or an IBM/lenovo type clitmouse.

Kangal

2013-10-22, 04:30

I'm right handed, so a trackball on the right side means use with my right thumb for better comfort and accuracy.

If you have to use the touchscreen, remove your hand from the trackball.
You won't find yourself needing to touch the screen and trackball together.

Putting the trackball on the back is a bad decision.
Anyone who knows a little bit about these knows how fragile they are.
After a few knocks, they can lose their sensitivity and become frustrating to use.

A clitmouse won't work, unless its on the rear and its very soft and very sensitive.
Again, its something that sticks out/exposed.

I guess a trackpad would work.
You'd need it on the back, since they require more size than a trackball for swiping gestures.
I just prefer trackball on the front over a trackpad on the rear.
There's no replacement for tactile feedback.

Hell, the keys could be mapped so that you can use the keyboard like a gamepad.
Use the trackball as the Dpad/nub,

Egon

2013-10-22, 06:50

... Putting the trackball on the back is a bad decision.
Anyone who knows a little bit about these knows how fragile they are.
After a few knocks, they can lose their sensitivity and become frustrating to use.

A clitmouse won't work, unless its on the rear and its very soft and very sensitive.
Again, its something that sticks out/exposed.

I guess a trackpad would work.
You'd need it on the back, since they require more size than a trackball for swiping gestures.
I just prefer trackball on the front over a trackpad on the rear.
There's no replacement for tactile feedback. ...

Would you mind if on the keyboard there were four arow keys, and a trackpad on its rear (in the middle)?

Trackpad can be used with the middle finger of either hand
Trackpad consumes minimum space
4 arrow keys are needed for the most accurate cursor movements and shortcuts like Ctrl+Right, Shift+Ctrl+Down, etc (yes, they were easy with a sticky Ctrl or Shift key, or after Shift has been pressed twice for Caps Lock)
Also trackpad operations could be combined with modifier keys. What about scrolling with trackpad while pressing the Ctrl or Alf key?

epertinez

2013-10-22, 07:31

One thing: Is "the other half" able to be larger than the phone? I imagine in some cases such as ideal keyboard you could use half an inch more to have everything in place and still be smaller than an S4 or a Note.

misterc

2013-10-22, 08:18

keep dreaming...

if demo from Czech site (however a Czech site got its hand on a Jolla device) holds there will be hardly more space left for QWERTY kbd then on the N900 :( :mad:

( video (http://mobil.idnes.cz/jolla-sailfish-os-0z3-/telefony.aspx?c=A131016_124448_telefony_vok) (in Czech) view of back is @ 2'56 a few seconds after beginning

wrong alert, this video is a hoax...

on any other pic (from the rear side) available (incidentally there are very few) the camera is more on the right side
phonearea has several pics of the back, some with camera in the middle, some on the right... :confused:
fromt camera lens is towards the left edge (from the front) whereas on pics on the Jolla site it is closers to the “ear set”
buttons are on the wrong side; all pics & Jolla site are pretty consistent about that :rolleyes:

still, many of the ideas forget to consider the limited height for rows of a slide out landscape QWERTY kbd due to the "hole" needed in any Other Half for the cam lens.
had that problem as well on the thread about hw kbd for N9 when considering using iCrap add-on kbds

Kangal

2013-10-22, 09:07

Its a waste of space having 4-arrow cursors on the keyboard... they use much more space than a trackball, and little more than a trackpad.

You could place the trackpad on the rear, save a little bit of space from the trackball.

By the way the keyboard concept is for phones as large as the SGS3/S4.
It seems Jolla phone might be a little too narrow and not quite as wide.

As I said before, Jolla should've used much cheaper components or make it more high-end. Remember how much interest the Ubuntu phone got?

Egon

2013-10-22, 09:13

keep dreaming...
if demo from Czech site (however a Czech site got its hand on a Jolla device) holds there will be hardly more space left for QWERTY kbd then on the N900 :( :mad:

( video (http://mobil.idnes.cz/jolla-sailfish-os-0z3-/telefony.aspx?c=A131016_124448_telefony_vok) (in Czech) view of back is @ 2'56 a few seconds after beginning
Do you mean that the hole thru which you shoot video or photos while keeping the keyboard closed, becomes visible if you slide out the keyboard more than about 45%?
I see no problem here. Please don't be ashamed of the hole, let the Qwerty slide out 60% or 70%. If you want that the lens is better protected, you can screw a lens cover or a closeup lens into the hole. Then for ordinary photos, you'd need to slide out the Qwerty. A minor defect is that the hole may "eat out" 1 or 2 keys in the upper left corner of the keyboard. The Esc key of this keyboard, for example. On its left end can still be added a couple of keys, if you move all the keys a bit to the right (to make it more symmetric; its center between the T and Y keys). Then there would be 14 keys in the 3rd row from top, and 6 keys on both sides of the spacebar. But please do not use this Samsung keyboard as a model for the placement of modifier keys.

misterc

2013-10-22, 09:36

NOKIA (very likely) never earned any money w/ Maemo/MeeGo
no option for Jolla

there is a choice to make...
high-end = high price (with higher margin) but fewer items
more "everyday" use = lower price (with less margin) but (hopefully) higher volume

NOKIA's "Maemo experiment" is here to prove how wrong the 1st option can be, aiming only at geeks (instead of high-end)
and when they finally made the move to mass market, it was too late
Jolla is picking up there... mass market
90% of the folks @ Jolla were part of the Maemo team; they know all to well they can't afford a niche.

pichlo

2013-10-22, 09:37

Please don't be ashamed of the hole

This is going to be my new signature from now on! :D:D

Oh, the power of taking things out of context ;)

misterc

2013-10-22, 09:53

Do you mean that the hole thru which you shoot video or photos while keeping the keyboard closed, becomes visible if you slide out the keyboard more than about 45%?
[...]

you would have a point, provided that the "sticks" which attach the kbd to the rest of the phone could be strong / long enough to guaranty stability even when the kbd is fully extended
not really an option here, is it?
if you can't provide stability by anchoring the kbd deeply in the rest of the device you either have to live w/ a shaky construct or limit the distance it slides out
:o

even on the N900 (knows gawd it is thick enough :rolleyes:) the kbd only extends about 40%
and the camera is in the kbd part, thus it would have been much easier to allow for more slide; why did they go from the confy N810 4+ rows w/ "D-Pad" to the cramped (let's be honest...) N900 3 rows kbd?!?

optical construct?
looked into quite a few bluetooth kbd add-ons (mostly for iCrap) for the N9 and they either
require the kbd to slide out completely (main camera is very close to the edge)
limit the slide out and simply have a hole

& most of them are rather clunky :eek:

Egon

2013-10-22, 10:08

you would have a point, provided that the "sticks" which attach the kbd to the rest of the phone could be strong / long enough to guaranty stability even when the kbd is fully extended
not really an option here, is it?
if you can't provide stability by anchoring the kbd deeply in the rest of the device you either have to live w/ a shaky construct or limit the distance it slides out
:o

even on the N900 (knows gawd it is thick enough :rolleyes:) the kbd only extends about 40%[/list] ...
In a another comment I reminded about the same fact; the keyboard cannot slide out more than 70%... If you drop the phone, the strain would be really powerful and might break the sliding rails or the "sticks". Or perhaps the fixing between the phone and the OH would open; could it be made intentionally "weak": the OH would become loose if the phone+OH is dropped. But would the strain on the interfacing connector then be too powerful? Anyway, according to the photo in my previous comment, Samsung made a Qwerty which slides out about 70%.

misterc

2013-10-22, 10:20

In a another comment I reminded about the same fact; the keyboard cannot slide out more than 70%... If you drop the phone, the strain would be really powerful and might break the sliding rails or the "sticks". Or perhaps the fixing between the phone and the OH would open; could it be made intentionally "weak": the OH would become loose if the phone+OH is dropped. But would the strain on the interfacing connector then be too powerful? Anyway, according to the photo in my previous comment, Samsung made a Qwerty which slides out about 70%.

70%? :confused:
if you want 70% i would go for a E7 / N950 like construct. no idea how strong / durable / shock resistant it is, however :eek:

dropping... how about one of those band, like they come for pens or badges attached to the kbd Other Half and you can have around your neck?!? :D

misterc

2013-10-22, 10:27

In a another comment I reminded about the same fact; the keyboard cannot slide out more than 70%... If you drop the phone, the strain would be really powerful and might break the sliding rails or the "sticks". Or perhaps the fixing between the phone and the OH would open; could it be made intentionally "weak": the OH would become loose if the phone+OH is dropped. But would the strain on the interfacing connector then be too powerful? Anyway, according to the photo in my previous comment, Samsung made a Qwerty which slides out about 70%.

read somewhere today (Jolla twit i think) that the attachment would be like the back cower attachment on the N900, thus plastics "hooks" that click into the main part
strong enough to keep in position, but if the Other Half is too heavy, the hooks will very likely break rather then "unclick" in case of drop / forceful removal :(

pichlo

2013-10-22, 10:57

Did the train move or the platform?

Is the keyboard attached to the phone or the other way around?

People keep talking about "the N900 keyboard sliding by 40%", but in fact it is the part with the keyboard that is the base and it is the display that slides out.

It does not matter if the OH is "too heavy", if you hold the whole assembly by the OH. Then it becomes the matter of how heavy the phone is instead.

Having a sliding keyboard on plastic clips like the N900 back cover is a serious concern IMO. It may even be a showstopper, unless they (we?) find a way to bolt it to the main chassis.

GizmoSmith

2013-10-22, 12:03

It's only fan art, but done great with attention to details !
Coming from here (as said in the article source) : https://twitter.com/capricotwi04/status/383927674147581952

I don't know which keyboard he took as a reference, seeing the "SMS/MMS" and "Mail" direct access buttons ?

Thanks for letting me know. Looks like JollaUsers, edited out the other half's, top & bottom parts of the picture!
Here is the full pic, if anybody is interested!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BVP8L32CMAE3mez.png

Then, I would love the keyboard to be "shell" friendly!
Admins would love to have the | (pipe), and > , < (redirection) symbols as a physical key!

If we are running out of keys for characters, we can also have 2 special "modifier" keys, behind the keyboard You know, the place where our index finger would be, when we are thumb typing!
The best example would the L1 & R1 buttons on PS3/PS4 controllers
http://cdn.gidn.net/images/stock/controller_ps3_diagram_2.jpg,
With that we should be able to add around 80 more characters!:D

dirkvl

2013-10-22, 12:22

If we are running out of keys for characters, we can also have 2 special "modifier" keys, behind the keyboard You know, the place where our index finger would be, when we are thumb typing!
The best example would the L1 & R1 buttons on PS3/PS4 controllers
http://cdn.gidn.net/images/stock/controller_ps3_diagram_2.jpg,
With that we should be able to add around 80 more characters!:D

I love this idea! Which modifiers would you put on the back?

The Xperia Play (http://www.digitaltrends.com/cell-phone-reviews/sony-ericsson-xperia-play-review/#/6) had this!
http://www.digitaltrends.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/sony-ericsson-xperia-play-back.jpg

txus

2013-10-22, 13:28

I love this idea! Which modifiers would you put on the back?

The Xperia Play (http://www.digitaltrends.com/cell-phone-reviews/sony-ericsson-xperia-play-review/#/6) had this!
http://www.digitaltrends.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/sony-ericsson-xperia-play-back.jpg

Well... R and L!! Just kidding, it could be Fn and Ctrl, like in the N900, but if they are done like shoulder buttons.... OMG, the gaming goodness! This would be a dream, really.

Offtopic: gaming

I have actually been thinking about a gamepad possibility lately, and one of the "problems" is the design, specifically how to implement shoulder buttons (and some kind of analog input, now that we mention it) inside an OH. What shape would the buttons have? Do they pivot? Where? How long should the button press go? Taking ideas from Xperia Play...

Now, continuing this line of thought: as I understand from what I've read about how the trackball and the hall sensors work, these trackballs are analog, or at least have different steps so a "semi-analog" (ok, "digital progressive") movement could be extracted (like when d-pads are mapped to either neutral position or max values of a virtual analog joystick). The Jolla is rather big, so the question is now, if there are shoulder buttons, could there also be 2 trackballs in order for this to be an all-around keyboard and light gaming OH? Incidentally, this would also solve any right- or left-handed issues we would have.

Edit: Ok, seems it took too long to write, and you yourself beat me to the Xperia Play reference. Which is in fact nice :D

txus

2013-10-22, 13:32

And just a small opinion/addition/suggestion: if the sliding mechanism is durable enough, personally I wouldn't mind if the keyboard covers the camera. This means the lens CAN be protected, unlike with the currently known OHs, and although you have to open the keyboard when you take a picture, this also means possibilities of keyboard shortcuts for camera settings and operation like we have in N900+CSSU. I know, this can also be done with a hole in the keyboard, but I want to point out that not everything about having an open keyboard during camera operation is bad, and it would make the general design (and specially the key layout) much simpler.

dirkvl

2013-10-22, 14:11

Well... R and L!! Just kidding, it could be Fn and Ctrl, like in the N900, but if they are done like shoulder buttons....

Okay, but why not FN and Shift? I would imagine these two as shoulder buttons would make texting a lot faster. Also, I think Shift is used a lot more than ctrl!

I think I'd go for Fn on the left, with more used FN-modified keys on the right. Shift on the right side then.

txus

2013-10-22, 14:42

Okay, but why not FN and Shift? I would imagine these two as shoulder buttons would make texting a lot faster. Also, I think Shift is used a lot more than ctrl!

I think I'd go for Fn on the left, with more used FN-modified keys on the right. Shift on the right side then.

Hhmmm... Good point. I was thinking "geek" here, with shortcuts and stuff like that, but you are right, in general shift makes more sense.

What about the 2 trackballs? Can it be included with the controller you selected? Is it actually feasible to use them as I proposed? I have very little knowledge about electronics, sorry. I'm a high level software guy, not used to hardware talk.

dirkvl

2013-10-22, 14:49

What about the 2 trackballs? Can it be included with the controller you selected? Is it actually feasible to use them as I proposed? I have very little knowledge about electronics, sorry. I'm a high level software guy, not used to hardware talk.

Off course! Everything is possible! The I2C connector allows for a lot of different functionality! I'ts just that the trackball are not really small components, so it will make the whole thing quite thick!

txus

2013-10-22, 15:17

Off course! Everything is possible! The I2C connector allows for a lot of different functionality! I'ts just that the trackball are not really small components, so it will make the whole thing quite thick!

Well, there has to be a tradeoff between thickness and ergonomy, because of the already discussed issue that with the Jolla the whole phone is on top and just the keyboard on the bottom. And the shoulder buttons will need some space too.

Edit: Maybe Jolla should release some OH design guidelines before discussing this kind of stuff.

Egon

2013-10-22, 21:04

keep dreaming...
if demo from Czech site (however a Czech site got its hand on a Jolla device) holds there will be hardly more space left for QWERTY kbd then on the N900 :( :mad:
( video (http://mobil.idnes.cz/jolla-sailfish-os-0z3-/telefony.aspx?c=A131016_124448_telefony_vok) (in Czech) view of back is @ 2'56 a few seconds after beginning
wrong alert, this video is a hoax...
Hi, have you seen this: http://jollatides.com/2013/08/21/jolla-slight-changes-to-hardware/
AFAIK, the "new design" is still the latest. This was reminded also in the comment of http://jollatides.com/2013/10/21/jolla-weekly-news-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-11941
In the newest design the main camera seems to be in the middle of the top (when the phone is in portrait orientation).
Well, also I have had difficulties in following what will finally come out from Jolla Ltd, because a large part of the "truth" is based on comments to comments of comments of ... and more or less inofficial videos :rolleyes:
Nevertheless, congratulations to Jolla for getting the Millenium Award! :)

Skarp92

2013-10-24, 00:03

(New here and first post (just because of this thread))

I checked thru the pages and from what I have seen the Motorola photon q has only been mentioned once, that is a keyboard I think have the most potential.

From my own experience the N900 covers almost all of the things I want to be able to do on it. But if it would have been a 5 row layout instead of 3, plus have the Sym button functionality from the N900, it could fit 52 more symbols (2 rows, each 13 buttons, and the Sym symbols on every button. 2*13*2=52).

That means dedicated number keys plus all of the special symbols we sometimes want to use, (or programmers often use) could be there all the time, not hidden away in some submenu. And ofcourse the Esc key on the left side of the number 1 key.

This would be my dream QWERTY for a phone.

wolke

2013-10-26, 18:29

dedicated number keys! id punch my grandmother in the face for 4 full rows of keys.

Zeta

2013-10-27, 21:18

I tought a bit more on how to make the keyboard.

First, I took a look at how other keyboard are done, by looking guides on ifixit. Found interesting things :
The motorola droid 4 has letter printed directly on the rubber : http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Motorola+Droid+4+Teardown/7759/2
http://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/NCGbLeadWR1bn5bK.large
The HTC Touch Pro 2 and Samsung Impression uses metal dome for the key contacts :
http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/HTC+Touch+Pro+2+Keyboard+Replacement/5544/1 & http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Samsung+Impression+Keyboard+Replacement/5727/1

But some other like the Motoral Droid 3 makes direct contact to the printed circuit board : http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Motorola+Droid+3+Teardown/6108/2
http://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/QwSkGAUlGENFpeI3.medium

A lot of phone are only sliding along the phone, like can be seen on the LG Neon II. A metal plate, large enough to avoid one side slides more than the other, is used.There are also some springs, I am not sure if they are here for sliding back the keyboard, or they can work in both positions :
http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/LG+Neon+II+Slider+Mechanism+Replacement/11101/2
Same can be seen on the Samsung Rogue, but with 2 separate metal plate, each with two guiding line, and springs that seems to work both way : http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Samsung+Rogue+Keyboard+Replacement/9032/2
http://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/pKPXkVCs2hHBgxma.medium

And some are sliding and lifting, like the n950, e7 or HTC Fortress : http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/HTC+Fortress+Keyboard+Replacement/14366/1

I think for the sliding thing, we should keep the horizontal slide which is simpler mechanically. I is quite easy to do, but involves a lot of very small parts, like the spring assembly.

For the keys, I still don't know what is the easier. The metal domes soldered directly on the pcb with a silicon/rubber board on top of it to materialize the keys is probably the way to go.
The other way would be to have a conductive part on the bottom of the rubber that makes the contact on the PCB when pressed, but I don't see how to do that (at home at least, a supplier must be found to do this).
The silicon/rubber itself is doable at home if you have access to a cnc machine, as it is simple to create a mold and then pour the silicon in it, like shown here : http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/gcnc/ch4/
Then the problem would be to have the letter name on it...

Finally, the backlight involve having a material that conduct light selectively to highlight the keys contour and text, but not the rest... For example black painting a translucent material, but not painting the letters.

If there are people that have experience about these things, I think it is time to show up ! ;)

Zeta

2013-10-27, 22:39

Also, when Jolla will disclose the phone drawings, we will be able to state if it is better to put the battery in the keyboard half and not on the phone half, for the stability, for the height and to avoid losing the battery when sliding the keyboard out...

stefanmohl

2013-10-28, 13:16

I still think that the easiest way to go is a cheap resistive touch e-paper screen that presents the keyboard layout, and a layer of transparent keys over that. :-)

Zeta

2013-10-28, 22:22

I still think that the easiest way to go is a cheap resistive touch e-paper screen that presents the keyboard layout, and a layer of transparent keys over that. :-)That would be #unlike ;)

It's a good idea, as it makes it simpler to build the keyboard. No more question on how to make the contact on keys, and it allows changing the keymap easily an at any time.

There is still the slider mechanism to build, and more importantly there is a need for something on top of the e-paper to "materialize" the key and have the feel we need (a "push button" feel). This can be a transparent layer added on top of the epaper which has bumps at the places where the key will be displayed on the screen.
Then, to change from a 4 to 5 row layout, only this top layer would need to change. A gaming pad with analog pad could also use a third one.

Then, a driver must be found that can handle multi-touch (at least for key combinations) and palm detection, and some level of code on the device to update the e-paper screen with the current layout (the image could change when symbol or shift keys are pressed, if the screen is fast enough which I am not sure), and to decode finger position on the touch screen as key presses.

Do you know of such a cheap e-paper screen with resistive multi-touch digitizer ?

dirkvl

2013-10-28, 22:39

Do you know of such a cheap e-paper screen with resistive multi-touch digitizer ?

Ha. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=i2c+e-ink+multitouch+resistive+display)

It's a good idea, as it makes it simpler to build the keyboard.

True it is very easy! You just need:

something on top of the e-paper to "materialize" the key and have the feel we need (a "push button" feel). This can be a transparent layer added on top of the epaper which has bumps at the places where the key will be displayed on the screen.

And lets not forget:
Then, a driver must be found that can handle multi-touch (at least for key combinations) and palm detection, and some level of code on the device to update the e-paper screen with the current layout (the image could change when symbol or shift keys are pressed, if the screen is fast enough which I am not sure), and to decode finger position on the touch screen as key presses.

And then your done!

stefanmohl

2013-10-29, 00:20

I am thinking that the physical keys might be very similar to the N900 keyboard, but transparent (of course) and with a few more rows and columns. Preferably with a similar feel when pressing the keys as what the N900 has, though I might like it a bit softer than the N900 is right now.

If the transparent physical overlay covers the entire e-ink base of the keyboard, there is no need of palm detection. The transparent physical keys will likely have some form of support that rests on the e-ink surface at regular intervals, and those support points will need to be ignored (even if they wiggle slightly when the keyboard is used). If a multi-touch capacitive touch layer is used, the key-supports could simply be non-capacitive to avoid that issue.

Oh, and there will have to be lighting of some sort too!

stefanmohl

2013-10-29, 00:27

Zeta

2013-10-29, 00:34

Ha. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=i2c+e-ink+multitouch+resistive+display)You forgot the "cheap" and "easily availlable" in your search link...
I didn't have 2 hours to spend to compare what exist (I already know it exist), so asked directly the person that gave the idea in the first place if he had some knowledge of such e-paper screen.

True it is very easy! You just need:I meant the assembly of the keyboard would be easier, not the whole system, as I pointed out every thing that would still be to solve... Don't know how I could have said it better....

On the other hand, you could have pointed me to things that would actually help to solve this, or explain why it would not be a good solution, but hey... :(

Zeta

2013-10-29, 00:40

The driver could also permit apps to upload any picture they want to the e-ink surface, so that games and other input-intensive apps can present icons for various actions on the keys, rather than just letters.That's the easy part !
The main difficulty is how to add a transparent layer on a touchscreen, without having false detection, keeping multitouch, and controlling the feeling of the key push...:confused:

stefanmohl

2013-10-29, 10:59

The main difficulty is how to add a transparent layer on a touchscreen, without having false detection, keeping multitouch, and controlling the feeling of the key push...:confused:

Do it physically. If the physical keys don't touch the touchscreen at all until they are pressed, there is nothing to falsely detect. If the support for the physical keys is non-capacitive, there will never be anything for the touch-surface to detect until a key is actually pressed.

The feel of the key push is also completely an aspect of the physical shape and materials of the keyboard.

Egon

2013-10-29, 11:08

... There is still the slider mechanism to build, and more importantly there is a need for something on top of the e-paper to "materialize" the key and have the feel we need (a "push button" feel). This can be a transparent layer added on top of the epaper which has bumps at the places where the key will be displayed on the screen. ...
Yes, the key-clicking action is important, but so is the shape of the keys. For optimum text entry, one of the most important features is: you should feel with your fingertips where are the key tops (the centers of the keys) prior to pressing the key. Even if a virtual keyboard had a good haptic feedback, it is not enough. Quite similar to your dream of a keyboard seems to be the Tactus keyboad: key domes which are filled with a liquid when you activate the keyboard; see the picture on top of http://www.tactustechnology.com/technology.html Perhaps the Tactus domes don't have real "click", but it can be made with a haptic feedback component.
Tactus promised to launch a real product in 2013. Well, it would make the keyboard OH concept obsolete, if the touch features and contrast of the screen remain acceptable.

dirkvl

2013-10-29, 11:11

Do it physically. If the physical keys don't touch the touchscreen at all until they are pressed, there is nothing to falsely detect. If the support for the physical keys is non-capacitive, there will never be anything for the touch-surface to detect until a key is actually pressed.

The feel of the key push is also completely an aspect of the physical shape and materials of the keyboard.

Can I make a suggestion?

Start experimenting! This is getting quite specific and practical, so perhaps it is time to see whether it is possible and practical to use an e-ink display. Get a RPi, get an i2c e-ink display, get an i2c touchscreen and start materializing!

You will very soon get an idea if this is either impractical/impossible or a brilliant plan which solves all the keyboard-designing issues!

stefanmohl

2013-10-29, 11:24

dirkvl

2013-10-29, 11:42

I am afraid I am a pretty abstract guy, I can present suggestions and ideas, but when making things I write software. If I build anything in hardware it will at the most be an FPGA-design :) I wouldn't know where to start in buying the components and putting them together!

To build the keypad overlay in my suggestion would require someone with good materials experience to get the feel right, that is far beyond my areas of knowledge.

Okay, in that case let me spoil the fun: e-ink display + e-ink i2c driver + touchscreen + i2c touchscreen driver + transparent overlay with clicky feel = very thick package + very complex to build + very complex to program + impossible to find the right parts

I don't see it happening. On the other hand, if someone disagrees, prove me wrong!

stefanmohl

2013-10-30, 16:10

I think I would be able to help with writing the driver part, but:

e-ink display + touchscreen + transparent overlay with clicky feel = very thick package + very complex to build + impossible to find the right parts

would be a showstopper. If you think that is the case, the solution is out. Thanks for considering it!

bennypr0fane

2013-11-11, 15:35

Here (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1350072&postcount=22) is what comes to my mind concerning the problem of the other-half-kb covering the camera and flash. The problem has changed a bit, since the camera is supposed to be in the middle now, rather than on the left, but the issue basically remains the same. I'd largely prefer the James-Bond-style option! :-)
Also, I'd prefer a N950/N97-like slide-out-at-an-angle design.
I can't think of a convenient clamshell design, as that would either make the other half cover the screen or the keys located on the outside of the clamshell.
There must be more than 3 rows, preferably 5, and the top row should be reserved for numbers keys. 4 arrow keys are also very desirable.
The surface of each key should be like the N900's, slightly convex, but with larger spaces in between, or the keys being larger, or both.
Anyone remember the Google G1? Plenty of space between the keys, and totally wasted because the keys were completely flush with the surface, so impossible to hit them just by touch. Note the difference to the totally crammed N900, which is still decent enough thanks to the convex surface of each key, so that's more important.
Note that on N900, that goes together with the base of the keyboard slightly receding into the bezel, so the edges are still flush against the back of the device.
In a trade-off I'd prefer 4 rows of well-spaced keys to 5 rows of densely cluttered ones, as long as the numbers get their own row.
I think it's not necessary to have 2 of Ctrl, Shift, Alt and Fn keys, I'll be happy with one of each.

JS2

2013-12-11, 18:36

I think there should be a navigation key and it should be on LEFT side of the keyboard, not on right side. It's ideal for navigation and great for gaming, this is the reason I loved my Nokia n97's keyboard:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/06/nokia-n97-retail-hands-on.jpg

JS2

2013-12-15, 09:38

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1526360_10202770455212878_1807910594_n.jpg

Concept

Courtesy of Ali Fakhruddin

Silvertongue

2013-12-15, 09:41

Thanks for sharing my idea here.. Appreciate alot..

Ali
@alifakhruddin

Silvertongue

2013-12-15, 10:15

hw abt this:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BbhMtjVIQAATskB.jpg

Zeta

2013-12-15, 18:23

Hi Silvertongue,

Great design.
I love as people still put FM transmitter in their concepts !

My "perfect" device would be :
* qwerty keyboard as in your design
* 4" display (with "medium" resolution, which allows to reduce GPU consumption, and battery live)
* thicker to allow doubling the battery capacity and fitting a bigger camera sensor (pixel count doesn't matter, so a 8MPix with 1.8µm pixels like on N8 or bigger would be perfect) with OIS and Xenon flash.

Seeing the current trends, I imagine this will not happen anymore ?

minimos

2013-12-15, 19:09

Great design.
I love as people still put FM transmitter in their concepts !

Personally I'm not interested in a FM transmitter, so I'm probably not going to make one myself, but just today I was going through various electronics-related news and I arrived to the pages of 'FMBerry', a FM transmitter piloted with Raspberry PI: https://github.com/manawyrm/FMBerry
Looking at the details, it uses as FM transmitter from the Sony Ericsson MMR-70, an add-on that can be found on fleabay for about 1 EUR.
At its core it uses the Alps chip TSM 1-6, which is controlled via I2C: https://www.mikrocontroller.net/attachment/140251/MMR70.pdf
The chip and its circuitery seems to be sufficiently small to be incorporated into a Jolla cover (if you find a way to get the audio signal).

Zeta

2013-12-15, 19:55

Nice finding minimos!
Answered in this new thread to avoid hijacking this one : http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1396850

Silvertongue

2013-12-16, 05:32

FM transmitter is fun. So I thght why not putting it all together. I wanted the best of everything in one device. A powerful Computer that could be more like the N900 and combination of Jolla's SailfishOs and Maemeemo...

Zeta

2014-01-11, 12:36

Interesting concept: http://www.alphaui.com/en/twiky-product/
Video here : http://www.alphaui.com/en/user-benefits/

It looks a lot than an enhanced Microwriter : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwriter.

Not sure it would fit on a 4.5" Jolla and still be usable, as current version is for 7" tablet, and the hand size remains... but the idea still stands.

I wonder how is the speed of typing text with this and the learning curve ?

dirkvl

2014-01-13, 19:22

Do you guys like this keyboard (http://www.etradesupply.com/oem-motorola-droid-a855-verizon-wireless-motorola-milestone-a853-keypad.html)?

seems cheap!

wolke

2014-01-13, 19:42

i used that droid for awhile. not a BAD keyboard, but i prefer slightly more sensible arrow keys. {id also prefer ANY numeric-row keyboards, even if it stabbed me in the eye every time i used it}

captainofiron

2014-01-13, 19:56

I really like the N97 and E7 style keyboard and how they slid out and tilted at an angle

late88

2014-01-13, 20:16

I haven't noticed anyone mentioning about the Nokia E75 keyboard. I know there aren't arrows, but I loved that keyboard and it's the best I ever had.

dirkvl

2014-01-14, 17:30

Egon

2014-01-14, 18:28

Do you guys like this keyboard (http://www.etradesupply.com/oem-motorola-droid-a855-verizon-wireless-motorola-milestone-a853-keypad.html)?

seems cheap!
No, I don't like it: asymmetric, and too few keys for serious language localizing.

nodevel

2014-01-14, 18:29

Okay, so the biggest keyboard that fits under the jolla -while being centered and not covering the camera is 92mm.

That means the N900 is the biggest that will fit.

Any bigger than that and the camera will be covered if the keyboard is not extended. Is this worth it?

When is it not covering the camera? With the keyboard open, or closed?

I think that being able to use the camera only with keyboard open is an acceptable solution. But opening keyboard like on the Desire Z would be more problematic than sliding out like on the N900 (as it would be further from the camera, thus maybe reducing its viewing angle).

qwazix

2014-01-14, 18:34

Do you guys like this keyboard (http://www.etradesupply.com/oem-motorola-droid-a855-verizon-wireless-motorola-milestone-a853-keypad.html)?

seems cheap!

NOOoooo!

bad keyboard, too little travel, too flat keys and the material is rubbery. You almost have to sink your fingernails in the rubber to type. Later DROID's allegedly had far better keyboards.

dirkvl

2014-01-14, 18:40

When is it not covering the camera? With the keyboard open, or closed?

The N900-size keyboard would never cover the camera. With extended keyboard the camera is always free.

But opening keyboard like on the Desire Z would be more problematic than sliding out like on the N900 (as it would be further from the camera, thus maybe reducing its viewing angle).

I don't understand what you mean.

(what I can say is that from an engineering standpoint, a sliding keyboard is a lot harder to make with the flex cable connection between the pieces!)

nodevel

2014-01-14, 19:12

The N900-size keyboard would never cover the camera. With extended keyboard the camera is always free.

I don't understand what you mean.

(what I can say is that from an engineering standpoint, a sliding keyboard is a lot harder to make with the flex cable connection between the pieces!)

I'm sorry, my bad - I was half way through drawing a sketch to illustrate what I mean, when I realized that my understanding of the Desire Z's keyboard was wrong :) You're right, it doesn't make any difference as far as camera is concerned.

Regarding the open/closed position, I think that sacrificing camera for better keyboard would be alright if you could take pictures with the keyboard open.

I don't personally mind the N900's size, as I'm used to it, but I'm not sure how it would feel on such a big phone.
I prefer slider, but it's not a deal breaker.

Egon

2014-01-15, 23:25

I wonder why are you so afraid of a hole on the keyboard. For example, if you used this kind of keyboard layout (but with less empty space at its left and right ends), there could be a hole in the same place as the Esc and Paddlelock key - or on their left side (where you have the speaker grid in the picture). If the Esc would be removed, and is still needed, it can be moved elsewhere on the keyboard. Please note that I mean a straight sliding keyboard, like N900 has, unlike the keyboard accessory of the picture. Thanks to the hole, the keyboard could slide out more than 60% of the shorter dimension of the Jolla phone.

I find the layout of this Qwerty accessory quite acceptable:
- enough space for localizable keys (the - = and Backspace keys can be localized for language variants), The Backpace key can be moved to where you have a "magnifier glass" symbol.
- enough modifier keys on the bottom row of keys
- spacebar in the middle
- four arrow keys, which have not replaced essential keys, such as , and .
But I don't like the "mail envelope", "magnifier glass" and "paddlelock" keys, because they have not much to do with text entry. And the Caps key could be replaced by the Shift key.

Sorry if I'm wrong with the place of where the hole for the camera should be when the Qwerty keyboard is closed (inserted) - lately I've not followed actively this thread. http://i42.tinypic.com/33l0cnp.jpg

aegis

2014-01-16, 02:34

juiceme

2014-01-16, 05:44

What we need is a keyboard that splits as the other half is closed leaving a hole for the camera. Ie. sort of like how the Thinkpad butterfly keyboard worked with cams.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_ThinkPad_Butterfly_keyboard

In my ideal other half keyboard you'd have a 5 row keyboard that splits as you close it with two rows moving above the lens and three rows below it.

Thanks for the link, I did not know such a thing even existed and I am a longtime Thinkpad fan :D
However I am a bit sceptical on the mechanical construction of that type, either it is going to be really flimsy flipper or else it will cost you 3-figure number to make (and the first number will be >> 2)

Dave999

2014-09-15, 19:06

Damn it. Why did you hide this thread from me all my life?

dirkvl

2014-09-15, 19:10

Dave999

2014-09-15, 19:18

Would it be possible to add € £$ | to free buttons to all layouts?.

B == | in the middle?

bennypr0fane

2014-09-15, 19:56

Dave999

2014-09-15, 20:00

LOVE the D-pad! and Separated top row!
I want dat thing!

The BEST part: You will get it.

If you pay for it :D

malkavian

2014-09-15, 20:07

I see some unused spaces in qwerty variant. Adding more letters/symbols could be optimal. For example if you add: ñ ç € º ª ¿ ¡ ' (this last one is the acute acent, used for compose: á é í ó ú) keyboard would be valid for spanish too. In a normal qwerty keyboard and in N900 spanish variant ñ is on the right key of l, and ç on the right key of ñ.

I don't see other usual symbols as: # £

http://www.wikinoticia.com/images/alt1040/alt1040.com.wp-content.uploads.2009.12.N900-en-pie-640x433.jpg

Edited for correction: I didn't see the "_" symbol, it's over the "p". "-" is the key on right to "0".

bennypr0fane

2014-09-15, 20:22

I already mentioned it (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1350072&postcount=22) a bit earlier in this thread, but I thought I'd throw in the idea again of a sliding lens cover as part of the keyboard:
"- Thinking more gimmicky, James-Bond-like, the leftmost column of keys - or a suitably sized portion of the left side of the kbd - functions as a lens/flash cover. When you wanna use the cam, that leftmost column (or even only its middle part, just wide enough to uncover the lens and flash) can be pressed down (or to the right) to vanish into the rest of the qwerty (which is in closed position). That would be the gesture with which one usually opens a standard lens cover :-D Sounds fun, doesn't it?"
I would regret having the whole thing the same size as the N900's. it was finely crafted, but still crammed and narrow, and only 3 rows is also disappointing. A hole is okay, having to slide the whole thing out for taking a pic is not.

malkavian

2014-09-15, 20:40

The design from dirkvl let you detach the keyboard. The two parts are attached by magnets.
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1438321&postcount=160

Dave999

2014-09-16, 05:23

Today any qwerty is the ideal one since we Simply have no other options.

beeki

2014-09-16, 05:34

This is the latest design:

scandic layout

Is there a reason that shifted numbers do not have the usual symbols !"#¤%&/()= (on currennt keyboard) on them ?

That international moneytary symbol ¤ is something that should be replaced whith $ or €

vistaus

2014-09-16, 11:59

Today any qwerty is the ideal one since we Simply have no other options.

We have. Dvorak, Colmak, etc. Dvorak is actually pretty great and easy to learn and it has seen more adaption in recent years.

Dave999

2014-09-16, 18:49

The design from dirkvl let you detach the keyboard. The two parts are attached by magnets.
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1438321&postcount=160

How powerful are the magnets. Can they destroy the phone or mess with wifi or network? I guess small magnets are safe.

Not like putting them on loudspeaker on High volume :D

dirkvl

2014-09-16, 18:52

How powerful are the magnets. Can they destroy the phone or mess with wifi or network?

no worries on the magnets. search tohkbdrev2 topic for moar explanations

Dave999

2014-09-16, 19:01

no worries on the magnets. search tohkbdrev2 topic for moar explanations

Ok, thx. i found this...I wonder how that would affect jolla

http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/mediacenter/slideshows/hybrid/index.html

http://youtu.be/QGytW_C6hR8

Dave999

2014-09-17, 18:27

A smaler version of microsofts new universal keyboard would be nice.

http://youtu.be/sdPT-TzgU84

Or
Logitech K480 Muti-Device Keyboard Review: http://youtu.be/owuoyXv9qu4

bennypr0fane

2014-09-17, 18:48

are the pics that you posted of the only layouts we will have or will you make a german one also?

malkavian

2014-09-18, 10:58

@Dave999 Did you heard about The Other Half? ;) :P

Jollaman

2014-09-18, 14:55

Hello!
Here is a picture .....
I like much!

http://cs622023.vk.me/v622023007/204a/tzGUqULS_I8.jpg

source : https://twitter.com/MixailBam
via : http://maemo.su/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=132391#p132391

Casanunda

2014-09-18, 17:13

This is the latest design:

scandic layout
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxRxHZbCEAAu4XL.jpg:large

qwerty
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxMADzpIgAA59rv.jpg:large

russian
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxKsnK6CAAAI02f.jpg:large

physical (material will change)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxBuClLIcAABBvo.jpg:large

WOW!
That looks great.
I'd love to have a German keyboard layout, but I could go for Qwerty version if not available.
If the real device looks as good as the renders (and the magnet mechanism works fine) this will be a MUST HAVE OTHER HALF.

wolke

2014-09-18, 17:22

beautiful keyboard, love the massive number of keys. im not sure i can get used to having the arrows on the left, though

vistaus

2014-09-18, 18:38

I will get used very fast to those arrows, I think. My previous phone, HP Pre 3, had a portrait keyboard and moving the cursor was done by holding down the symbol key on the *left* of the keyboard and swiping the gesture area. So...

I still vote for a portrait slider TOH, but if the keyboard's gonna look and work as awesome as the mockups, then I'd buy it in an instant and use it every day :) (IMHO it would be a nice compromise to the portrait slider I miss from the Pre 3 if it's gonna be this awesome as the mockups! :))

bennypr0fane

2014-09-18, 20:25

WOW!
That looks great.
I'd love to have a German keyboard layout, but I could go for Qwerty version if not available.
If the real device looks as good as the renders (and the magnet mechanism works fine) this will be a MUST HAVE OTHER HALF.

No German is a dealbreaker for me - won't buy a qwerty.

Jollaman

2014-09-20, 23:11

Beauty.

http://cs619430.vk.me/v619430007/18d11/U6IyPzyoy9k.jpg

source : https://twitter.com/MixailBam
via : http://maemo.su/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=132438#p132438

malkavian

2014-09-22, 09:23

Great design that you posted Jollaman!

vistaus

2014-09-22, 09:41

Beauty.

http://cs619430.vk.me/v619430007/18d11/U6IyPzyoy9k.jpg

source : https://twitter.com/MixailBam
via : http://maemo.su/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=132438#p132438

Just... no. Sorry, if that was gonna be a TOH I wouldn't even think of buying it. Keys look less cool, keys are waaaay too flat, keypad on the right is more inconvenient that it already is on the left IMHO and I just don't like the white-ish look. But to me, the dealbreaker is more the too flat keys and keypad on the right.

Dave999

2014-09-25, 18:50

With new and improved bendable iPhone. How is the keyboard? Rock solid or slinky flexible?

dirkvl

2014-09-25, 18:55

the bottom piece has a 1.6mm thick fiberglass/epoxy backbone spanning the entire area. should be fine.

Dave999

2014-09-25, 19:24

http://www.jollatides.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/jolla-concept-lenovo.jpg

This was ones a dream...

I think samsung Give birth to slider keyboard device 2015. You know Where you heard IT first.

Jollaman

2014-09-26, 06:32

With love for Jolla.

http://cs616319.vk.me/v616319007/1f0df/IR4op5CACwc.jpg

source :
http://maemo.su/forum/viewtopic.php?id=7396&p=10
http://maemo.su/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=132438#p132438
http://maemo.su/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=132417#p132417

Jollaman

2014-09-28, 03:40

With love for Jolla.

http://cs616319.vk.me/v616319007/1f0df/IR4op5CACwc.jpg

source : http://maemo.su/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=132417#p132417

malkavian

2014-10-27, 23:32

@dirkvl hope you like it enought to use it :(

As asked by dirkvl in http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1444538&postcount=354 here is a qwerty design with spanish symbols added as told in this post and the inmediate next one http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1444531&postcount=352

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5597/15029583753_7af6564981_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oU7xCn)

ñ and acute (for áéíóú) are placed in the same placements as in spanish qwerty keyboards (at right side of "L" and "Ñ" respectively). Umlaut (for ü) is placed in the same place as in azerty layout (in same key as "+" symbol). Opening of interrogation "¿" and exclamation "¡" are added in same key as closing respectives. Catalonian (and french) symbol "ç" and "ª" "º" are added in the free places left ("F", "H" and "J" respectively). No other modifications, so mostly, symbols are placed as in qwerty english keyboards.

This layout would be valid for english and spanish. English users will have more symbols than they need, and spanish ones will have symbols placed in inusual places for them. But, it's a good deal for both.

Dave999

2014-11-02, 18:08

Just think of the oppertunity With a 6 inch slider. You could have such an aswsome keyboard. Would love to have a sony xperia ultra slider ll.

http://www.greedynet.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/compenion-future-laptop2.jpg

evk

2014-11-05, 13:55

Is there a reason that shifted numbers do not have the usual symbols !"#¤%&/()= (on currennt keyboard) on them ?
I wonder the same thing. Visually it'd wouldn't be as clean. But the typing experince would be much closer to a "normal" keyboard.

I don't know about the other scandinavian layouts, but for Swedes. ";:" should switch place with "<>" and some of the other symbols could also be moved around (eg. !/\~-?).

Egon

2015-01-18, 18:19

I wonder the same thing. Visually it'd wouldn't be as clean. But the typing experince would be much closer to a "normal" keyboard.

I don't know about the other scandinavian layouts, but for Swedes. ";:" should switch place with "<>" and some of the other symbols could also be moved around (eg. !/\~-?).

Yes, indeed. For a more compatible layuout with the Scandinavian standard Qwerty layouts, the , (comma) and . (period) and - (hyphen) keys should be immediately on the right-hand side of the M key, and ; (semicolon) and : (colon) and _ (underscore) should be made with Shift + comma and Shift + period and Shift + hyphen, respectively. In order to visually associate the ; and : and _ with the Shift key, the ; and : and _ labels should be painted in white on the , and . keys.

I think that the same modification should be made also to the Qwertz andd Spanish keyboards, in order to make their lyout more consistent with the standard keyboard layout (of your laptop, for wexample).

Is it possible to make these changes to the next revision?
Sorry, I've not followed the debate about the functions of the keys on the right-hand side of the M key.

Egon

2015-01-18, 18:41

dirkvl

2015-01-18, 18:53

See this comment: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1457120&postcount=189

Love it. To quote myself:
I like to quote myself

Since it is way to late to change anything drastic to tohkbd without upsetting a lot of people, it is safe to assume this thread is from here on towards thinking about a perfect layout for rev3/j2rev1.

Do not forget to post pictures or whatever (even excel will do), but saying 'i want that with this and this but not that' does not speak to the very visually oriented mind of a hardware designer ;)

malkavian

2015-01-18, 20:06

Your suggestion looks good. I would, however, make the keyboard even more compatible with the standard layout by moving the , (comma), . (period) and - (hyphen) keys immediately to the right-hand side of the lM key.

Sure, but I just tried to do a very basic adaptation of english qwerty, to ease to get it done. It's just an english + some symbols without touching anything from the original design. Obviously, your proposal is better for an independent design.

Egon

2015-01-19, 16:50

Sure, but I just tried to do a very basic adaptation of english qwerty, to ease to get it done. It's just an english + some symbols without touching anything from the original design. Obviously, your proposal is better for an independent design.

Your design of a bilingual Qwerty layout makes sense. It adds Spanish to the Qwerty, but does not make it any worse for English texts. Such a qwerty variant would be ideal for North America, for example

I believe that a trilingual layout can be modified from keyboards like TOHKBD rev. 2. By adding to their dedicated keys the Ç and Ñ characters and the dead-key accents of the Spanish, Portuguese and Catalan languages, as well as¿ ¡ ª º · characters as the combinations with the blue "Chr" key, the same keyboard would be suitable for Spain and Portugal, as well as practically all Latin America. The keyboard might be suitable also for French texts (but for French it would be more limited and less standard than the Canadian bilingual Qwerty, for example). Naturally also English could be written easily on the Spanish+Portuguese+Catalan Qwerty variant. I may publish my draft in the thread of http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=94303

malkavian

2015-03-04, 10:35

So, any improvement doable to this design fos spanish/catalan/portuguese layout adaptation on english qwerty one?. Obviously a totally new arrangement would be ideal, but I am trying to get the best posible modification over tohkbd qwerty layout.

If there is nothing more to add/quit/move I will ask wazd to make the vector file for laser engraving.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7539/16321265285_c48ffa18f3_o.jpg

Layout in libreoffice format (https://www.dropbox.com/s/t6ojuiq3iu7nd2l/english%20%2Bspanish%2C%20portuguese%20and%20other s%20TOHKBD%20layout.ods?dl=0)

Egon

2015-03-06, 20:28

I will later check and comment this layout. But please make this minor change:
Change the accent above the F label to the genuine accent acute symbol: ´. It has the unicode 00B4 (and at least on WIndows PC) it can be entered with Alt + 0180. Whether the accent acute is reproduced correctly may depend a bit about the font used.
But now in your draft it looks like the apostrophe.

Egon

2015-03-06, 20:50

To make the "Masculine ordinal indicator" º confuse less with "superscrift o" and Degree Sign, and to make the "Feminine Ordinal Indicator" confuse less with "Superscript a", please use a suitable font for the printing of those two key labels. The difference can be seen best by using the Calibri or Cambria font for the º ª letters: there is a line below the º and ª.

malkavian

2015-03-06, 22:56

Thanks Egon, I got implemented your suggestions and made a change. Acute accent is more used than umlaut or even ñ or ç, so I put in a key where can be gotten directly without pressing a especial key previously. It is the same place used in N900 spanish layout.

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8633/16529831157_b5ee676ee0_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/rbFGUV)

There is a space under the at symbol which I suppose that could be used too.

Egon

2015-03-10, 15:36

... Acute accent is more used than umlaut or even ñ or ç, so I put in a key where can be gotten directly without pressing a especial key previously. It is the same place used in N900 spanish layout.
... mThere is a space under the at symbol which I suppose that could be used too.
Thanks, malkavian. You changes are welcome improvements.
While this layout already works as a good "Pan-American" keyboard variant (English + Spanish + Portuguese + French + Italian), it works also as a quite useful "ad hoc" keyboard also for the Catalan, Finnish, Estonian and German languages, if the TOHKBD owner prefers to get a primarily English layout (exception: the German "double s" ß is missing, or for the German, perhaps the Ñ key could work as the ß key; the ß does not need to be printed on that key). The layout and key labels work fine also for the Swedish, Danish and Norwegian languages, if a suitable SW driver is provided ("Swedish add-on for English layout", for example). For the "Scandinavian" å and Å ("A with ring above") can you find the "ring above" dead-key accent on the keyboard?. Yes you can: it is printed on the M key (although it works as the º (masculine ordinal indicator) for the Spanish, Portuguesem Catalan and Italian languages, the SW driver can make it work as the "ring above dead-key accent" if you have chosen Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, Icelandic or Finnish as the text-input language (but perhaps we can omit the "Icelandic add-on SW driver for English layout", because you cannot find the Þ and ð letters on the keyboard). For Estonian, the õ letter can be implemented like for the Portuguese, and ü letter can be implemented like for the German language.