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dirkvl
2014-05-08, 17:56
Any change for producing another 100 batch? I missed the first Jollakb boat and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone!


I would like to be in the next Batch of the TOH Keyboard if you make more then 75 pieces. Will you make more then this few once?
Wonderful work and great idea btw. :D


I would like to purchase one from your Qwerty OtherHalfs. Do you have some already made Qwerty OtherHalfs for sell or if I purchase one now, I'll be in the waiting list?


Will you be taking preorders again by any chance, or is it definitely over?


Big kudos for what you'r doing there. It seems you've done an awesome job. Is there any way I could get one of these or are all sold?


maybe. very maybe.



Looks:
-How will it look like?
LINK (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/atlalxjc22igy6y/AAA-_3G3EwxsGJ08J3xRrUHca?dl=0#/)
-What kind of keypad will you use?
Custom (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxMADzpIgAA59rv.jpg:large)
Update 4-8-14: Andrew has joined the team and will design the keypad. I have full confidence it will look beautiful!
-Qwerty/qwertz/azerty/δλοφ?
Yes.
-What kind of materials will you use?
PLA casing, wood bottom, injection molded keypad
-Backlight?
Yes
-Multiple colours?
Maybe, but is more expensive
-Will the keypad be a display/touchscreen/e-ink/whatever?
No.

Ordering:
-How/when can I (pre-)order?
Not yet
-Can I be in pre-order queue?
No
-What will it cost?
Probably 130E (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1440020&postcount=233)
-Where/how can I donate?
Here (http://goo.gl/inpuR6) and here (http://funkyotherhalf.com/?page_id=9)
-When will it be ready?
Not yet determined

Improvements:
-Will it use a cable?
No
-Will it have 'alingment issues'?
No
-Will it use magnets?
Yes
-Are magnets dangerous to my phone
Absolutely not!
-Will it be slimmer?
Yes
-Will it be awesome?
Yes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ALwKeSEYs)
-Will it be usable for everyday use?
Yes

Participationg in development
If you think you can help and have experience in developing products, send me a PM!

Other/FAQ:
-I have a different question
Is it a good question? If not, resist the urge.
-Shouldn't Jolla help with design/manufacturing/whatever?
No.
-Howso people if now humens cuz ima gerl blable why not?!!
That is not english. Use 'Google Translate' or a dictionary
-Can I pre-order?
First read this whole post.
-Use this thing/component/whatever!
Send this kind of messages over PM, with explanation why and how it works :)

Some FAQs, will be updated when possible! Asking one of above questions is useless ;)

Parts list and status
Base 3D -- testing
Bottom 3D -- testing
Magnets -- ready for ordering
Screws -- ordered
--
Base PCB -- designing and testing
Connection pad PCB -- designing and testing
Bottom PCB -- designing
SMD components -- ready for ordering
--
Wood insert -- ready for ordering
Domesheet -- not yet designing
Keypad -- designing and exploring production
--
PCB making -- requesting quotes
PCB soldering -- not yet in contact
3D printing -- testing parts from different suppliers
Domesheet production -- in contact
Keypad production -- approaching companies

THIS POST IS ABSOLUTELY NOT UP TO DATE

kimmoli
2014-05-08, 18:35
Will there be eeprom to allow udev rulez to start/stop systemd services depending which TOH is installed?

bill_klpd
2014-05-08, 19:01
I think that you should try to get the camera work even with the keyboard closed! It is a pity to "lose" your camera....

About parts, what about the n97 keyboard? I searched a little on ebay and there are many of them for sale.

dirkvl
2014-05-08, 19:09
Will there be eeprom to allow udev rulez to start/stop systemd services depending which TOH is installed?

you know it will be in there!

dirkvl
2014-05-08, 19:40
I think that you should try to get the camera work even with the keyboard closed! It is a pity to "lose" your camera....
Because of the location of the camera this will never happen, forget about it. Pick a piece of paper, put it on your phone and mark the edges and camera, then slide it out 40mm -> big-*** hole in the middle of your keyboard!




About parts, what about the n97 keyboard? I searched a little on ebay and there are many of them for sale.

Mentioned above:

-Use this thing/component/whatever!
Send this kind of messages over PM, with explanation why and how it works :)
Will not use N97 keyboard. Terrible layout, ugly buttons, not available in big quantities. I appreciate the suggestion, but use PM.

Also, don't worry about the keypad, have some ideas ;)

Larswad
2014-05-08, 22:22
if it happens dirk, please don't limit to 100 or so. I do Understand they can be out if stock and that its a pain to build then.
But once in a while you could say, "hey, right now i've decided for a new batch because i need a little extra pocket money".

or is it perhaps so that you make little or even no money out of them?
if thats the case i understand of course that you llimit them so low in count.

nodevel
2014-05-08, 23:28
Is there going to be a 'opened/closed' detection mechanism?


(trying to be as brief as possible :) )

dirkvl
2014-05-09, 06:32
Is there going to be a 'opened/closed' detection mechanism?


(trying to be as brief as possible :) )

don't know how yet, but yes!

rentze
2014-05-09, 07:13
Please, take my money!

dirkvl
2014-05-09, 07:59
Please, take my money!

you can send your money to funkyotherhalf.com -> you get a nice OH and I have moar funds for developing :D

www.rzr.online.fr
2014-05-09, 09:53
will it be opensource ? at least for the newly created parts ? :-)

--
http://rzr.online.fr/q/create

dirkvl
2014-05-09, 09:56
will it be opensource ? at least for the newly created parts ? :-)

--
http://rzr.online.fr/q/create

you know me!

all will be open-source, but will only put parts online that are final!

www.rzr.online.fr
2014-05-09, 10:10
you know me!

all will be open-source, but will only put parts online that are final!

Nice btw I can't open :

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fxocsudk5gd8chs/AAAEI1DkWTCh_aICsLpIGGTza/QWERTY%20OH/Parts%20list

may this land in maemo wiki ? or other makers places ...

did it get some technical contribution from the community ?

I am wondering if there are other hw mods on other models ...

there is this n9 project here

dirkvl
2014-05-09, 10:31
Test piece

Let me emphasize that this is not final design, not by far!!! Maybe will not even use this material, just trying some stuff out.

http://oi62.tinypic.com/2h6bngh.jpg

But still, looks very awesome

max_power
2014-05-09, 12:57
Because of the location of the camera this will never happen, forget about it. Pick a piece of paper, put it on your phone and mark the edges and camera, then slide it out 40mm -> big-*** hole in the middle of your keyboard!




There is at least one different hardware keyboard layout possible that does not block the camera:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Sony_Ericsson_P1_front.jpg

dirkvl
2014-05-09, 13:09
There is at least one different hardware keyboard layout possible that does not block the camera:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Sony_Ericsson_P1_front.jpg

sliding down is not going to happen

bobsikus
2014-05-10, 05:32
thank that you decided for that :) i will follow this thread so i will not miss pre-orders again ! one suggestion (but absolutely unimportant), it might be in black color :)

dirkvl
2014-05-10, 20:14
much Eagle, so wow pcb:

http://oi61.tinypic.com/mugykz.jpg

bobsikus
2014-05-13, 12:52
http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1396/46/1396463966267.png

HtheB
2014-05-13, 13:38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIfOjkB17BA

fip
2014-05-14, 09:48
Because of the location of the camera this will never happen, forget about it. Pick a piece of paper, put it on your phone and mark the edges and camera, then slide it out 40mm -> big-*** hole in the middle of your keyboard!



why couldn't you make the keyboard less than the full width (height) of the phone?

dirkvl
2014-05-14, 09:57
why couldn't you make the keyboard less than the full width (height) of the phone?

because it does not comply with my design philosofy. but feel free to make an artist impression to convince me otherwise!

petzku
2014-05-14, 19:15
I'd be most definedly interested in buying one.

dirkvl
2014-05-14, 19:36
I'd be most definedly interested in buying one.

o rly?

http://media.giphy.com/media/NITFX5emjpMQ0/giphy.gif

Rauha
2014-05-23, 22:33
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-oKj_4HYhHDY/U3_MfYJJO5I/AAAAAAAAANg/7cE-4OnJdqQ/s750/lolcat543f0444f74bad9bdd1d2a61ef1a9067e1687d8d.jpg




Post scriptum: Ε is negotiable. I guess that all my swedish speaking peeps can just suck the O instead.

Kabouik
2014-05-23, 23:44
Depending on the features, you can most likely count me in. I'd be interested in one to upgradefrom TOHKB V1. It would be extremely frustrating to have the prototype but not the improved successor. I would kill myself, most likely. :o

dirkvl
2014-05-24, 07:38
http://oi61.tinypic.com/11rgqkl.jpg

first proto test pcb is soldered, testing some features and stuff! (god that sounds vague!)

still testing materials, exploring production facilities etc etc.... show your love and support via FunkyOH (www.funkyotherhalf.com), then i have some dough to buy proto components!

also, anyone here has a lasercutting machine? injection molder? :)

Mikkosssss
2014-05-24, 08:54
also, anyone here has a lasercutting machine? injection molder? :)

Just buy lasercutter OH. :p

Edit: Oops forgot what time I was on when used my timemachine OH, so forget that.

kimmoli
2014-05-24, 09:35
anyone here has a lasercutting machine?:)

diy? http://www.instructables.com/id/CO2-laser-that-cuts-sheet-metal/

minimos
2014-05-24, 12:48
also, anyone here has a lasercutting machine? injection molder? :)
No hackerspace near your place?

TemeV
2014-05-24, 14:34
That PCB looks quite thick, is that standard 1,6mm? Could you make TOHKBD thinner by making PCB thinner? I think 0,8mm would still be stiff enough. Even 0,6mm might do.

dirkvl
2014-05-24, 15:25
That PCB looks quite thick, is that standard 1,6mm? Could you make TOHKBD thinner by making PCB thinner? I think 0,8mm would still be stiff enough. Even 0,6mm might do.

#prototype optimization is last step
http://media.giphy.com/media/Lndtxw3ztLhNC/giphy.gif
(investigating this by the way, but pcb (fiberglass) stiffer than 3D printed material for same thickness, so thicker pcb could reduce thickness! #proto #notfinal #notimportantrightnow)
optimization is last step
http://impossiblehq.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Final-Form.jpg


No hackerspace near your place?

not that i know of...

diy? http://www.instructables.com/id/CO2-laser-that-cuts-sheet-metal/

good idea kimmo, i'll build a lasercutter myself :p


anyway, second pcb out for manufacturing :)

http://oi62.tinypic.com/xer8fc.jpg

nodevel
2014-05-24, 16:47
Glad to see you're progressing fast, but it also means I need to empty my head before it's too late :) Everything that follows is just my opinion (nothing personal, against or for your keyboard:) ), but based on experience with various hardware keyboards.

Why do you intend to make it thinner? Jolla is already thin enough and why sacrifice comfort for few mm's (it looks like thickness is becoming the next megapixel or screen size)? Switching TOH's is easy, so when one wants to amaze someone by low thickness, (s)he can just put a different TOH on.

What is most important about a keyboard is A) its reliability and build quality and B) buttons recognizability and press feedback. Both are hard/impossible to achieve with the thickness hunt.

I am, sadly, not an owner of the TOHKBD#1, but from the pictures and videos (+customers' feedback), it very much seems like the build quality and typing comfort could be improven upon. On the other hand, I didn't notice any owner complaining about its thickness...

I noticed your first metal design (http://oi62.tinypic.com/2h6bngh.jpg) and it looks to me like the keyboard of the original Moto RAZR (http://www.cheap-phones.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/motorola-razr-v3i-unlocked-silver.jpg) or Nokia N93i (http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/reviews/images/n93ilandscape2.jpg). I know it is not the final design, but since you were considering it, I must say that I have owned the N93i and this type of keyboards is one of the worst. You can never be sure which button you are pressing and nearby keys were often pressed as well as the desired key, which was very, very frustrating.

We already have a flat screen. A flat keyboard creates no added value, in my opinion.

dirkvl
2014-05-24, 18:40
Glad to see you're progressing fast, but it also means I need to empty my head before it's too late :) Everything that follows is just my opinion (nothing personal, against or for your keyboard:) ), but based on experience with various hardware keyboards.

Cool, experienced people with constructive criticism and new ideas are very helpful! Lets go!


Why do you intend to make it thinner? Jolla is already thin enough and why sacrifice comfort for few mm's (it looks like thickness is becoming the next megapixel or screen size)? Switching TOH's is easy, so when one wants to amaze someone by low thickness, (s)he can just put a different TOH on.

True. But I have a certain 'thickness increase' that is acceptable to me, within this boundary i am happy. Thicker than this unspecified number, i will not believe it is a good design and will conclude i will have to look for other solutions.

However, I have a trick up my sleeve to cope with this issue! I am experimenting with this as we speak, more on this in the future. I do not want to make anyone happy with a dead sparrow (http://idealisticpragmatist.blogspot.nl/2010/03/dead-sparrows.html).


What is most important about a keyboard is A) its reliability and build quality and B) buttons recognizability and press feedback. Both are hard/impossible to achieve with the thickness hunt.

All important factors, but I think this varies for all users. Most of the requests I got with Rev1 were different keyboard layouts for example! Maybe an idea to put up a poll to make it easier for me to know what to focus on?


I am, sadly, not an owner of the TOHKBD#1, but from the pictures and videos (+customers' feedback), it very much seems like the build quality and typing comfort could be improven upon. On the other hand, I didn't notice any owner complaining about its thickness...

I think this is because all people that got a Rev1 knew in advance that is was a prototype product and hackishness all around. The keypad is not good, its too thick, unreliable, but hey it works!


I noticed your first metal design (http://oi62.tinypic.com/2h6bngh.jpg) and it looks to me like the keyboard of the original Moto RAZR (http://www.cheap-phones.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/motorola-razr-v3i-unlocked-silver.jpg) or Nokia N93i (http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/reviews/images/n93ilandscape2.jpg). I know it is not the final design, but since you were considering it, I must say that I have owned the N93i and this type of keyboards is one of the worst. You can never be sure which button you are pressing and nearby keys were often pressed as well as the desired key, which was very, very frustrating.

This was indeed not a final design, the goal was to test the material and the production quality, which i am both not satisfied about. But it looked cool right? I would love a huge brushed aluminum keyboard, but this will require a lot of testing and thus a lot of dough (that keypad was 100 euros...)



Anyway, thanks for all the feedback! Please disagree with me and keep the discussion going. That is IMO the only way to get a good product. Come prepared with good arguments and examples, because I usually get a picture in my head about how it should look,feel and work and that picture is hard to change! :)


To end with a terrible idea:

We already have a flat screen. A flat keyboard creates no added value, in my opinion.

Round better?
http://regmedia.co.uk/2007/11/20/wolfking_warrior_xxtreme.jpg

Kabouik
2014-05-24, 23:26
I am not as experienced as Nodevel, but I have a tohkbd1 so I might comment on his suggestions too! And like him, nothing personal, no fanboyism or hateboyism, just trying to contribute to the discussion while the final design is still being worked on.

Why do you intend to make it thinner? Jolla is already thin enough and why sacrifice comfort for few mm's (it looks like thickness is becoming the next megapixel or screen size)? Switching TOH's is easy, so when one wants to amaze someone by low thickness, (s)he can just put a different TOH on.
The Jolla is indeed thin and one may think that a thick toh would be acceptable on it, as we all remember the thick design of the N900, how we thought "Hell it's thick!" when we first got it in hands, and then how we thought "It's the perfect form factor" shortly after. But the Jolla is large, very large. It's already difficult to put it in some pants' pockets. Large screen size + angular vertices + crazy thickness is not a good combination, one of them has to be taken care of to make the final design acceptable. Screen size cannot, neither angular vertices.

As a owner of the tohkbd1, I can say that the thickness is one of the main reasons why I can't keep this toh permanently on the Jolla. Of course it is not the only reason, and perhaps I would let it on if keys were more reliable and if the plastic part was less conspicuous (black, or white but with better finition and no gaps between it and the Jolla; right now the plastic part is not parallel to the Jolla and it makes it even thicker, and even more conspicuous when people are around). That is not a critic Dirkvl, we all knew it was a prototype and I think you didn't read any complaints from me! Of course there was a bit of disappointment, but a lot of excitation too, and a huge a mount of hope for future revisions because, hell, it's working! But even if the keyboard was more functional and less conspicuous, it would still be very hard to put a Jolla with it in some pants' pockets. A thinner design would definitely be a progress, especially as the Motorola Droid's keyboard that has been used is an almost-flat keyboard anyway, consequently having limited tactile feedback anyway.

What is most important about a keyboard is A) its reliability and build quality and B) buttons recognizability and press feedback.
I am definitely with you on that point. But I guess the sweet spot has to be found between limited thickness and and tactile feedback of the keys. The N900's keyboard had a great button recognazibility in my opinion due to the dome-shaped keys, yet a rather thin profile. I don't own a E7, but its keyboard seem interesting too from the pictures i see, and it could work with a metal design from Dirkvl if such keys (E7 or similar) and domesheets can be purchased. This is what I thought would be interesting when I first saw the metal prototype Dirkvl has posted: he is able to cut holes in a metal plate, so then why not considering these keyboards which should have a good key recognazibiliy? Even if I like the N900 keypad, it would be a bit tiny for the Jolla, and still hard to find parts. For instance, the Samsung S5330's domesheet are easily found on the internet, and if accuracy of DIrkvl's machine a cuttign holes (in metal or plastic plates) is good enough, could that be a relevant solution?

[Edit] I realize the Samsung is a tiny phone so the keyboard would be small too, but why not cutting the domesheet to adjust spacing of the keys to the Dirkvl's PCB and Jolla size?

I am, sadly, not an owner of the TOHKBD#1, but from the pictures and videos (+customers' feedback), it very much seems like the build quality and typing comfort could be improven upon. On the other hand, I didn't notice any owner complaining about its thickness...
That is true, but Dirkvl is right too here: there weren't much complains at all because it's a prototype and we're sure Dirkvl put a lot of sweat in that project, and finally delivered a working tohkbd (apart for some keys sometimes :D), but the keyboard would be better and more useable if thinner, more comfortable, and available in several layouts.

I noticed your first metal design (http://oi62.tinypic.com/2h6bngh.jpg) and it looks to me like the keyboard of the original Moto RAZR (http://www.cheap-phones.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/motorola-razr-v3i-unlocked-silver.jpg) or Nokia N93i (http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/reviews/images/n93ilandscape2.jpg). I know it is not the final design, but since you were considering it, I must say that I have owned the N93i and this type of keyboards is one of the worst. You can never be sure which button you are pressing and nearby keys were often pressed as well as the desired key, which was very, very frustrating.
I agree here too, I'm glad Dirkvl is not considering that totally-flat design as the way to go!

minimos
2014-05-25, 06:15
not that i know of...

Hm... if you are in Delft, Revelation Space (https://revspace.nl/Main_Page) in Spoorlaan 5, Den Haag shouldn't be too far.

Sorry for insisting :)

dirkvl
2014-05-25, 06:30
Hm... if you are in Delft, Revelation Space (https://revspace.nl/Main_Page) in Spoorlaan 5, Den Haag shouldn't be too far.

Sorry for insisting :)

thanks! they have a laser-cutter, but that can not cut through metal. it can engrave in ham though!
https://revspace.nl/images/7/7a/Ham_lasercut.jpg

wernel
2014-05-25, 16:08
Due to various reasons, I missed the OHKBD1 train and don't want to miss this 2nd train.

I know the OHKBD1 had little problems (of course, it's a kind of prototype) and now, as I can read in the posts, it works.
These little problems made this OHKBD1 amazing, because was the first keyboard for Jolla and who purchased it, as a consequence, taked part in the project.

Indeed the OHKBD2 will be better and, in regards to the thickness, my pocket still can assume several extra millimeters: I came from a HP Pre, without edges, and it was little in comparison with the Jolla; for me the most important reason for the change was the OS.

Conclusion 1: I'm interested in buy a TOHKBD2
Conclusion 2: size does'n matter :)

TemeV
2014-05-25, 19:10
#prototype optimization is last step
http://media.giphy.com/media/Lndtxw3ztLhNC/giphy.gif
(investigating this by the way, but pcb (fiberglass) stiffer than 3D printed material for same thickness, so thicker pcb could reduce thickness! #proto #notfinal #notimportantrightnow)
optimization is last step


Ok, good that you have that covered :)

And what comes to that thickness conversation. I also think that TOHs should be as thin as possible, because Jolla is quite big phone.

www.rzr.online.fr
2014-05-25, 20:49
I know there's a laser cutter in my place ... this could be a nice exercice to try it out ... if you can mentor me ... dont be hurry too I dont have lot of free time for this project ...

--
http://rzr.online.fr/q/diy

robnas
2014-05-26, 11:10
I want to add to Kabouik: the N900 keyboard was good. I'm not very familiar with hardware keyboards on phone, I had a detachable one for the Galaxy S3, which made very hard clicks. It wasn't perfect, because it worked on BT and switching it on/off took too long to have advantage concerning typing.

The strong point of the N900, and if I can remember it has been mentioned in one of the reviews was the keys weren't flat, but concave, so keys next to it weren't easily pressed. I also like soft keys (no CLICK, CLICK!, CLICK!!) and a very soft backlight, and even better: switchable. A hard backlight can be just as bad as no backlight, because I don't want to lit the bedroom when I'm typing in bed.

Concerning thickness I want to say:
I would try to make it thin and use metal. It's good to make it a bit heavy, so the keyboard/screen are balanced a bit. Using metal can also make it stiff. To make the design more easy, you could try to build it in two parts: a "drawer", where stiffness and a good sliding out is important (not angled), and the real keyboard part (screwed upon, thus repairable?)

Another simple yet effective design (I've made it once from plastic and glue) is making a room with four "walls" and making an "X" in the middle.
I've graduated for mechanical engineer, so if you want a good design regarding stiffness/size, maybe I can help. robnas at gmail.com (dutch).

Ozymandias
2014-05-26, 11:32
I agree that the n900 KB was pretty much perfect, so something similar would be nice. The droid KB in the prototype OH is good enough in principle, only negative thing is that some keys (in my OH) require very hard presses, this means it's not possible to type really fast and almost blind like with the n900, because you have to constantly check if the keys registered. But it's still a very good, working prototype.
The thickness is a bit too much, I can carry it around when I have some kind of jacket on, but I don't like putting the Jolla with HWKB in my jeans back pocket, also the plastic is not exactly the most comfortable thing in the world. Some kind of thinner metal version sounds great. I don't have any problems with added weight, only bulk.

Looking forward to whatever new you will think of :)

stefanmohl
2014-05-27, 19:00
OK, I know I am harping on an old song, but I still believe in the idea: A capacitive touch screen with silicon markers for where the keys are. A touch screen is really quite fast, as long as you look at the keys. The problem is that as soon as you take your eyes off the keys, you have no way of knowing where you are. By adding a thin silicon grid or other overlay, you will get enough feedback to keep your fingers in place.

You can easily test what I mean on the TOHKBD or any other mobile phone keyboard; just imagine that the key would react when you just touch the key, rather than having to push it down. Do some pretend typing. Isn't that fast? Even faster than having to push the keys?

And of course you can change between any keyboard layouts you like whenever you like. :-)

dirkvl
2014-05-27, 19:06
OK, I know I am harping on an old song, but I still believe in the idea: A capacitive touch screen with silicon markers for where the keys are.

Added to first post.


(spoiler) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w_XuOBnUAg)

juiceme
2014-05-28, 08:05
@stefanmohl, it just does not work that way sorry.
You cannot get "tactile feedback" that way, no way. There needs to be a definite action of a key being physically pressed to get that, if you just have a touchscreen with silicone lumps on it you will not achieve that; when your finger touches the lump it is already too late, you have already mistyped...

robnas
2014-05-29, 10:08
@stefanmohl: I've also got the problem of doubletapping on touchscreens. If a touchscreen with silicone cover would be that good, why isn't it already existing and/or widely used on pc's?

dirkvl
2014-06-01, 09:11
@stefanmohl: I've also got the problem of doubletapping on touchscreens. If a touchscreen with silicone cover would be that good, why isn't it already existing and/or widely used on pc's?

All good points, but since this feature will not be made by me, this is *kind of* cluttering this thread. Please do continue this discussion in this thread (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91539). You can discuss options and explore possibilities there!


In other news: the bottom-pcb for TOHKBD-rev2 has typed her first words! It has some new features that are under testing now. Waiting on some other pcb's that should arrive this week, then I can maybe do a short demo.

Other thing: kinda running low on dough -if you know what i mean- for developing keyboard stuff... Ordering stuff from FunkyOH (http://funkyotherhalf.com/?page_id=9) is most practical for me, but if people are not interested in that I could open another donation account like in Rev1? With the donations turned into discount coupons if/when Rev2 goes into production?

malkavian
2014-06-04, 18:54
I like the idea of using the N900 keyboard, because it's great. Being able to use the actual keyboard of my/our N900 for the Jolla OH would make it cheaper, although I would prefer to maintain my N900...

N900 keyboard size would let space for the camera, and something like an FM transmiter, infrared, and an maybe optic for the camera could be added in the space left.

Moreover, adding two "legs" to the cover, will let you put it tilted in your desk to see the screen easier.

This could be called the N900 OH :) Yes yes, I am asking for too much, but let me dream.

stefanmohl
2014-06-04, 23:11
How about getting access to a cnc-mill and milling it out of aluminum? A bit old-tech, but very high quality for small production runs.

Elyos
2014-06-09, 18:02
How about getting access to a cnc-mill and milling it out of aluminum? A bit old-tech, but very high quality for small production runs.

way too expensive.

you also need to make it way thicker.

you also need to cram some electrical insulation into it

>or do a workaround which adds more thickness.

dirkvl
2014-06-12, 15:40
Some experimental stuff arrived:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bp8Kg0LIcAAb7bh.jpg:large

Dave999
2014-06-12, 15:44
Some experimental stuff arrived:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bp8Kg0LIcAAb7bh.jpg:large

Why two and not one?

dirkvl
2014-06-12, 18:04
Why two and not one?

i actually got ten, same price as ordering 1. this shows both sides ;)

wook_sf
2014-06-15, 02:42
I am proud owner of:
1. 2 x HTC Tytn - Hermes - full qwerty
2. HTC Blue Angel - horizontal qwerty - horrible
3. N97mini - bad...
4. 2x Nokia e7 - best one in this list
5. N900 - bad...
6. 2x Nokia n950 early proto qwerty is hard while pre black proto is very good, but not even close to E7

I still do not have Jolla but I have Nokia 1020 (shhhh!) to practice touch... :\

I do use GTalk so very much and with EQ Alt Tab on E7 it's fastest phone I ever used...

jalyst
2014-06-15, 10:14
1020's a fine device, you should get the most out of it...

WP8.1's a huge improvement over 8x, still not as interesting as Android/Sailfish/Others, but certainly much closer to Android/iOS now in terms of OOTB utility/usability.

Alas WP's still very rigid (like iOS) in terms of hack-ability, anyway we digress!

Dave999
2014-06-15, 10:46
any plans to make a special edition and sell it to the hingest bider lika a dave999 special edition made of gold?


dirkvl special edition with some extra cool feature?

EDIT: I'm trying to get the thread back on track and discussion about keyboard ;)

dirkvl
2014-06-15, 11:27
any plans to make a special edition and sell it to the hingest bider lika a dave999 special edition made of gold?

dirkvl special edition with some extra cool feature?


I can put of some early proto's from rev2 -when ready- to the highest bidder to boost development funding!

Rev2 will probably blow everyone away with awesome functionality, so no worries about that ;)

Will take the option of producing them out of gold into consideration.

wook_sf
2014-06-15, 13:07
1020's a fine device, you should get the most out of it...

WP8.1's a huge improvement over 8x, still not as interesting as Android/Sailfish/Others, but certainly much closer to Android/iOS now in terms of OOTB utility/usability.

Alas WP's still very rigid (like iOS) in terms of hack-ability, anyway we digress!

WP8.1 hacked and uefi cracked ;)
--EoOT--

dirkvl
2014-06-16, 18:47
Can you guys discuss your win8 experience somewhere else?! #offtopic #pleaseremove

Had some issues with my printer, turned out to be faulty thermistor. Will be replaced this week and then I can demo some new stuff!

dirkvl
2014-06-21, 14:53
Some minor adjustments on Base board, for smaller eeprom mostly.

http://uploads.oshpark.com/uploads/project/top_image/ohakhrAd/large_i.png

Printer is fixed, hope to be able to make a mockup of rev2 soon!

dirkvl
2014-06-23, 08:34
Some progress on Bottom board

http://uploads.oshpark.com/uploads/project/top_image/6MKA8RPK/large_i.png

cvp
2014-06-23, 14:47
looks great, interessting how will you building a background light :)

dirkvl
2014-06-23, 14:55
looks great, interessting how will you building a background light :)

Like this:

http://uploads.oshpark.com/uploads/project/top_image/Ki8IF6TM/large_i.png

cvp
2014-06-23, 15:26
ah ok :)
there is 12 or 22 leds on board?
i see that the right buttons from top to bottom will have littlebit lower light. But your work look really nice.
hope you will find a solution to get a qwertz keyboard too :)

dirkvl
2014-06-23, 15:30
there is 12 or 22 leds on board?

10 LEDs for the backlight, the area with 'LEDS' above it are all the supporting logic and resistors.


hope you will find a solution to get a qwertz keyboard too :)

maybe.



by the way, where are these holes for (http://funkyotherhalf.com/?p=119)???
http://oi61.tinypic.com/2r257yx.png

cvp
2014-06-23, 15:33
ok, make sense :P
and left is a switcher to turn light on/off ?

dirkvl
2014-06-23, 15:35
ok, make sense :P
and left is a switcher to turn light on/off ?

2 additional LEDs for CAPS-LOCK and FN-LOCK (or whatever)

cvp
2014-06-23, 15:38
good luck with the project :)

let's see what the battery performance says :)

rentze
2014-07-15, 08:32
Any plans to solicit donations for tohkbd2? I'd be willing to participate.

HtheB
2014-07-15, 12:36
I actually hoped to see the thumbstick in rev2.

Too bad I guess :(

dirkvl
2014-07-18, 12:10
Any plans to solicit donations for tohkbd2? I'd be willing to participate.

Donations for Rev1 was a lot of administration in the end. Currently ordering from FunkyOH is the way to both sponsor my development and get some nice stuff yourself!

I actually hoped to see the thumbstick in rev2.


always in consideration, just like a lot of other features.

however, currently some other stuff is in research. so i am focusing on other stuff, will look into keypad and other stuff later!

HtheB
2014-07-18, 13:51
I actually hoped to see the thumbstick in rev2.

Too bad I guess :(



always in consideration, just like a lot of other features.

however, currently some other stuff is in research. so i am focusing on other stuff, will look into keypad and other stuff later!

http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/forastero30/hero_zps561e7845.jpg

dirkvl
2014-08-04, 20:06
Bit of a quite period due to my holiday, but I am back!

In other news, Andrew (https://twitter.com/andrewzhilin) has joined the team and will do the keypad design. He already has some nice designs (http://i.imgur.com/j8zCCmn.jpg), but be sure to inspire him by posting your ideas in this thread (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1379125#post1379125).

I am very enthusiastic to see what comes out of this, should be good! :)

HtheB
2014-08-04, 23:49
In other news, Andrew (https://twitter.com/andrewzhilin) has joined the team and will do the keypad design. He already has some nice designs (http://i.imgur.com/j8zCCmn.jpg)

Hubba hubba!! (http://treasure.diylol.com/uploads/post/image/162977/resized_gods-creation-meme-generator-hubba-hubba-ding-ding-who-invented-this-thing-thank-u-lord-6ad0c5.jpg)
WARNING: NSFW!

jalyst
2014-08-05, 04:57
but be sure to inspire him by posting your ideas in this thread (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1379125#post1379125).

Looks like in this (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1379125#post1379125) post, you may want to reference this (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1424569#post1424569) post in the 1st sentence.
Not this (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91535&page=81) thread... <--Perhaps time to lock it? If so, just report the last post to mods.

Cheers.

dirkvl
2014-08-06, 20:05
very very early render. will probably change, but still: i like

http://oi60.tinypic.com/287exhl.jpg

bottom part thickness: 5mm
added thickness to phone part: between 2.2 and 0.6 mm (currently 2.2, theoretical max 0.6mm)

robnas
2014-08-06, 20:22
very very early render. will probably change, but still: i like

http://oi60.tinypic.com/287exhl.jpg

Looks ok, but is the flash covered? How will that be solved? I want a keyboard...so bad...

dirkvl
2014-08-06, 20:32
Looks ok, but is the flash covered? How will that be solved? I want a keyboard...so bad...

don't worry about the flash ;) all in due time

dirkvl
2014-08-10, 00:47
some more nightly work on the keyboard, ordered some test parts from shapeways, should be able to get a working rev2 proto in 2-3 weeks

dirkvl
2014-08-10, 10:46
With my current design -which is very very straightforward- it would be possible to make the keyboard in a kit form, with all parts separately available. Think lots of different colours, surface roughness, keypad layout, upgrade ability, etc

Pricing about 150, realistically. For a keyboard of around 100, there would be no options.

If you intend to buy one later or at least considering, please give your well funded opinion about this! Some suggestions to start your reply with:

- I am very much in favor of full custom keyboard and 150 sounds good
- I am in favor, but 150 is way too much
- I'll buy anything that is shiny and has a Jolla logo
- I am very much in favor of having it in kit form

- I want the ultimate compromise, please give me limited customization for a very in-between price

- I am not in favor, I only care about functionality
- I am not in favor, I only care about pricing
- I am not in favor, this is a terrible idea
- I am not in favor, I already have a hard time putting TOH on phone, let alone build a kit

Will maybe throw some other ideas out there if I get some useful replies. Like to do it demand-based, but that means I need to know what you want!

jalyst
2014-08-10, 16:29
I am not in favor, I only care about functionality

+1

Don't really care about ugradeability/customisability, just make it great OOTB...
So long as it's quite versatile,* & has excellent built-in functionality/utility/usability, that's enough.
Then you'll have a solid device, that won't cost as much as a device that also focuses on ugradeability/customisability.
But I know from an ODM's POV (i.e. you), the latter might be more appealing... ;)

*& hence mitigates the need for ugradeability/customisability

latency
2014-08-10, 17:52
+1

Don't really care about ugradeability/customisability, just make it great OOTB...
So long as it's quite versatile,* & has excellent built-in functionality/utility/usability, that's enough.
Then you'll have a solid device, that won't cost as much as a device that also focuses on ugradeability/customisability.
But I know from an ODM's POV (i.e. you), the latter might be more appealing... ;)

*& hence mitigates the need for ugradeability/customisability
+1 on your +1 Jalyst ;)

robnas
2014-08-11, 14:16
€150 is a lot of money for a keyboard...
But hey, there isn't an alternative, so maybe I'll pay it. But....
For that price I want to be 100% sure it's good.
I want to try it, keys have to work flawless. No double presses, no multikey presses because of the design of the keys (small, middle of key has to be higher, as on N900).
Design doesn't have to be top-notch, but it should look like a normal keyboard. Not like this one:
http://www.jollausers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/keyboard-OH-667x419.jpg
Why not: black board in white plastic. Can be done better. It looks DIY, not €150. Metal hinges visible. Could house a bigger board (or in such a way the camera is always unobstructed).

For €150 I also don't expect "mickey-mouse"-solutions. It doesn't need a lot of extra power, it works (no instability issues) and no switching on/waiting things. I think it's ok to switch it on, but then it needs to work right away.

That's my cup of tea. I want to pay that much for it, but it should be worth the price. And: a minimum of 2 years normal guarantee.

rentze
2014-08-11, 14:36
I'd be ready to fork out 150€ if it's a quality thing, that is, it works as it's supposed to, both with native and Android apps. That being said, I'd prefer the extra money to go into testing and enhancing build quality (removing glitches, double presses, pimping up the software etc.), rather then customization and design frills. I couldn't care less about those.

dirkvl
2014-08-11, 16:06
Ok, thanks for the replies!

What I understand:
-custom colours and materials is not wanted
-typing experience should be flawless
-higher price possible, but comes with huge expectations
-software should be fully integrated

Some remarks:
-custom colours is possible, but has to be decided somewhat early in process, it affects the design. if this is not wanted by you, makes live easier for me. during rev1 had some requests for different colours, hence the question/idea
-the whole camera covering issue will not go away, because the camera is in the middle. it will leave a big hole in your keypad. but i have a trick up my sleeve to eliminate this issue
-the focus is on making it more professional, so no DIY solutions. this is a major focus point
-keypad will be bigger

If there are people that want to add anything, or disagree about anything, shout out!

jalyst
2014-08-11, 16:23
-typing experience should be flawless
-it will leave a big hole in your keypad. but i have a trick up my sleeve to eliminate this issue
-the focus is on making it more professional, so no DIY solutions. this is a major focus point
-keypad will be bigger

These are by far the most important points IMO...

Focus on them & only them & you'll have a better chance at executing very solidly, hence (possibly) justifying the asking price, whilst also increasing speed of delivery.
Once you've nailed that sharpened focus, you can broaden it further with the 3rd TOHKBD iteration.

jalyst
2014-08-11, 16:33
That being said, I'd prefer the extra money to go into testing and enhancing build quality (removing glitches, double presses, pimping up the software etc.), rather then customization and design frills. I couldn't care less about those.

^This.
Focus hw/sw/design quality, forget about customisability, for now at least.

Fellfrosch
2014-08-11, 17:27
I would find it nice to have different keyboard layouts to chose from. Just would love to have a qwertz Keyboard. More customizability isn't necessary in my opinion.

robnas
2014-08-11, 17:58
-the whole camera covering issue will not go away, because the camera is in the middle. it will leave a big hole in your keypad. but i have a trick up my sleeve to eliminate this issue
Well....explain, please.
Huge expectations is maybe a little bit much....because it's still a bit DIY (by you), but I do expect it works good and it does look good.

The rest what's mentioned: sounds great.

eekkelund
2014-08-11, 18:20
I am in favor of full custom keyboard and 150 sounds good

But

For that price I want to be 100% sure it's good.
What means that I care most about functionality :)

dirkvl
2014-08-11, 18:24
the whole camera covering issue will not go away, because the camera is in the middle

Well....explain, please.

http://oi58.tinypic.com/2itq2vb.jpg

i have a trick up my sleeve to eliminate this issue

will be revealed in first rev2 proto video


maybe :p

misterc
2014-08-11, 22:05
http://oi58.tinypic.com/2itq2vb.jpg



will be revealed in first rev2 proto video


maybe :p

wouldn't it be better for the keyboard layout to simply make a little "cut out" for the flash LED when the keyboard is pulled out instead of the two big holes?
after all, the other ½ can be exchanged if in "photo safari"
possibly w/ a "photo" ToH, with tripod fixation, additional Xenon flash (+ battery) & knows gawd what more :D :rolleyes: :cool:

malkavian
2014-08-13, 08:18
I think that different layouts would be a need (I would need a spanish qwerty layout), but other customizations are unnecesary, and it's better to focus on functionality and price.

Thoke
2014-08-13, 09:04
+1 on functionality and reliability. With that price it's usability must be good/very good, and it must work consistently and reliably. That should be the main focus. Throw out customizability and easy modifiability if they get in the way of reaching functionality and reliability.

I might pay 150€ for it if it really is functional and reliable. If it's price was 100€, I wouldn't demand as much functionality, but I still wouldn't spend even that much money if it wasn't reliable at least.

Just my two cents.

PS: don't still make it look like a frankenkbd : P

mind_the_gap
2014-08-17, 21:46
+1 on functionality and reliability. With that price it's usability must be good/very good, and it must work consistently and reliably. That should be the main focus. Throw out customizability and easy modifiability if they get in the way of reaching functionality and reliability.

I might pay 150€ for it if it really is functional and reliable. If it's price was 100€, I wouldn't demand as much functionality, but I still wouldn't spend even that much money if it wasn't reliable at least.

Just my two cents.

PS: don't still make it look like a frankenkbd : P

That's my opinion, too.

Casanunda
2014-08-18, 14:18
+1 on functionality and reliability. With that price it's usability must be good/very good, and it must work consistently and reliably. That should be the main focus. Throw out customizability and easy modifiability if they get in the way of reaching functionality and reliability.

I might pay 150€ for it if it really is functional and reliable. If it's price was 100€, I wouldn't demand as much functionality, but I still wouldn't spend even that much money if it wasn't reliable at least.

Just my two cents.

PS: don't still make it look like a frankenkbd : P

That sums up my opinion quite well, too.

150€ is quite a lot of money for a keyboard - for the same money, you can get an Android smartphone with hardware similar to Jolla's...

But with a fully functional and well built ("professional feeling") hardware keyboard the Jolla would really be a unique device again.
I can live with limited/no choice of customization (although I would love a German layout QWERTZ keybord) if function and quality are good.

For 100,-€ I could live with a device that blocks the camera when keyboard is opened (not that much of a deal to snap it back in - but NOT acceptable the other way round, e.g. keyboard has to be pulled out to take a photo), but a 150,-€ device should make it possible to take photos in both states.

dirkvl
2014-08-18, 14:39
That sums up my opinion quite well, too.

150€ is quite a lot of money for a keyboard - for the same money, you can get an Android smartphone with hardware similar to Jolla's...

But with a fully functional and well built ("professional feeling") hardware keyboard the Jolla would really be a unique device again.
I can live with limited/no choice of customization (although I would love a German layout QWERTZ keybord) if function and quality are good.

For 100,-€ I could live with a device that blocks the camera when keyboard is opened (not that much of a deal to snap it back in - but NOT acceptable the other way round, e.g. keyboard has to be pulled out to take a photo), but a 150,-€ device should make it possible to take photos in both states.

Okay cool, I think I have enough opinions about this subject to continue for a while! Thanks all! I'll do my best :)

sid21177
2014-08-19, 19:03
I know you already discounted this idea

But a vertical keypad, like N95/N96, would solve the camera access issue as someone mentioned earlier.

It would also be (potentially) possible to make it thinner, coz you will have more support (opening mechanism along the longer edge of the phone)

Just an opinion :) - pls don't take it otherwise

dirkvl
2014-08-19, 19:29
I know you already discounted this idea

But a vertical keypad, like N95/N96, would solve the camera access issue as someone mentioned earlier.

It would also be (potentially) possible to make it thinner, coz you will have more support (opening mechanism along the longer edge of the phone)

Just an opinion :) - pls don't take it otherwise

Since this is -as you mention- discussed before, I would like to refer to my previous answer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w_XuOBnUAg) about this idea.

dirkvl
2014-08-25, 14:30
First mock-up proto is on the way, pics/video this week!

http://oi58.tinypic.com/246vnv8.jpg

robnas
2014-08-26, 17:04
Looks ok, but there isn't much to see...

dirkvl
2014-08-26, 17:33
Looks ok, but there isn't much to see...

I know! And I have the parts here and they look AWESOME!

Just cant decide whether to do pics or video! AAAAAAA

robnas
2014-08-26, 19:24
Just cant decide whether to do pics or video! AAAAAAA

Both. Duh... :p

dirkvl
2014-08-26, 21:11
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bv_mU78IUAAE4fp.jpg

video tomorrow!

nodevel
2014-08-26, 21:22
Is it just me or are those concave keys/buttons?

tldr: Yay!!! :)

misterc
2014-08-26, 22:55
MOCKUP KEYBOARD
DEFINITELY NOT FINAL
video tomorrow!
so far, so good! ;)
well, very good :cool: :D

hagiz
2014-08-26, 23:33
Great work! This is looking so good already! Crossing fingers for being able to get my hands on one. Wish there was a preorder/prepay option. :)

misterc
2014-08-27, 00:16
just voted

No, I do not require this functionality

on DIP_TOH -- lots of toggles! -- orders 8/12 (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93350&goto=newpost)

a hardware keyboard is a MUST have.
if one wants more, well... isn't the trend towards simplified interface with function drop-in / pop-up as needed / appropriate?

read your posts there & agree about the Quality over quality of functionality of the TOH development process
however, i was wondering... if you already added the holes for camera / flash on the inner part of the TOHKBD rev2, how much complexity / cost would it be to add a camera button?
just like the hardware keyboard, it's one of those fundamentally useful features, must-have of sort...
but yeah, why not a phone answering button, flash light button, whatnot button...

PS (back to topic): will there be an ESC key?
slash ( / )?
that's the kind of keys w/out which a keyboard under Linux loses a lot of its... usability :-\

dirkvl
2014-08-27, 07:02
Wish there was a preorder/prepay option. :)

No indication on what the price will be and do not know yet if all new things I want to do are possible yet. When this is clear however, there will probably be this possibility, because without I would run into liquidity issues very fast.




a hardware keyboard is a MUST have.
if one wants more, well... isn't the trend towards simplified interface with function drop-in / pop-up as needed / appropriate?

I don't understand what you are trying to say. Please elaborate!



if you already added the holes for camera / flash on the inner part of the TOHKBD rev2, how much complexity / cost would it be to add a camera button?

Not much cost or complexity, but finding a 2-stage camera button that fits within 0.6mm height is a challenge. You are very welcome to join the hunt! (2.2mm if it fits in a cutout (http://www.eurocircuits.com/images/easyblog_images/67/Copper_to_the_board_edge/copper%20to%20the%20pcb%20edge.png))





PS (back to topic): will there be an ESC key?
slash ( / )?

Andrew is in charge of the keypad and has full creative freedom in this. This was his latest render (http://i.imgur.com/j8zCCmn.jpg) of what he had in mind, but some minor details will change. Happy?

latency
2014-08-27, 11:21
Andrew is in charge of the keypad and has full creative freedom in this. This was his latest render (http://i.imgur.com/j8zCCmn.jpg) of what he had in mind, but some minor details will change. Happy?

That render looks awesome. I didn't think I needed a keyboard, but if it turns out somewhat like that with good functionality it's a must have!

Kabouik
2014-08-27, 12:43
Well just shut up, and take [all] my money.

I have a tohkbd1 I don't use (several reasons, but mostly as some keys don't register), but the quality and much better integration (better than recycling parts) of this tohkbd2 prototype got me.

I'm in. No matter what.

Makeclick
2014-08-27, 13:11
That render looks awesome. I didn't think I needed a keyboard, but if it turns out somewhat like that with good functionality it's a must have!

I can buy 1, maybe 2 with φδε -keys!! Looks so awesome :eek:

NokiaFanatic
2014-08-27, 16:08
Wow - that is gorgeous!

robnas
2014-08-27, 19:45
Good job, Dirkvl...it looks good.

As I can see on the render of the keys (http://i.imgur.com/j8zCCmn.jpg), there isn't an escape key. I also miss a DEL key and the ` (for making an accent grave, like ς ΰ θ μ. A home/end key could come in handy also.

I hope you will post more detailed pictures and a "final" version of the keys. So far, so good!

dirkvl
2014-08-27, 20:08
http://youtu.be/zrq7djS1PtQ

juiceme
2014-08-27, 22:04
The magnet idea is totally wicked!
I just wonder if the stength of 2 buttons is enough.

dirkvl
2014-08-27, 22:12
The magnet idea is totally wicked!
I just wonder if the stength of 2 buttons is enough.

I will make sure it is.

Hecraps
2014-08-28, 00:22
Hello everyone !

I just registered on the forum to answer to that post, but be sure that I follow every topic on this forum since a long time.

I would like to warn you about the using of magnet on the keyboard.
I have a Jolla since 8 months, but I only drop my old HP Pre3 since 5-6 months. And there is a strange thing that I surely remember, this is when I charged my Pre3 on the wireless charger (touchstone), there was a strong magnetic field all around it (it was able to reset my electronic clock near it), and when the Jolla was around (about 50cm), it was bugging totally. The screen wasn't responding well, some apps got launch without action, and he can't be wake up with the power button. But everything went back to normal when I took away the charger.
I hope it will not make the same thing with a simple magnet...because the idea is supra-great :D

juiceme
2014-08-28, 04:33
Hello everyone !

I just registered on the forum to answer to that post, but be sure that I follow every topic on this forum since a long time.

I would like to warn you about the using of magnet on the keyboard.
I have a Jolla since 8 months, but I only drop my old HP Pre3 since 5-6 months. And there is a strange thing that I surely remember, this is when I charged my Pre3 on the wireless charger (touchstone), there was a strong magnetic field all around it (it was able to reset my electronic clock near it), and when the Jolla was around (about 50cm), it was bugging totally. The screen wasn't responding well, some apps got launch without action, and he can't be wake up with the power button. But everything went back to normal when I took away the charger.
I hope it will not make the same thing with a simple magnet...because the idea is supra-great :D

Good point. However;
wireless charging uses an alternating magnetic field, like a transformer does, and button magnets create a static magnetic field, even the strong ceramic ones. I have tried a wireless charger (Samsung Qi pad + Nokia Fatboy) with Jolla and the device worked OK while charging, even though charging process itself was sporiadic with Fatboy (which uses some Nokia technology that is not fully compatible with standard Qi)
I grant that "touchstone" might be different from "Qi", but both are wireless charging standards. Hence I find it difficult to believe Jolla would be affected by magnetic fields...

TMavica
2014-08-28, 04:54
I am interested in this new keyboard, will it be ship globally?

kimmoli
2014-08-28, 08:05
[QUOTE]... this is when I charged my Pre3 on the wireless charger (touchstone), there was a strong magnetic field all around it (it was able to reset my electronic clock near it), and when the Jolla was around (about 50cm), it was bugging totally...[QUOTE]

This really sounds that your wireless charger (or Pre3) is not feeling well.
Sounds more like strong RF radiation than magnetic field, magnetic field in charger should be just coupled to the receiver coil, and even when nothing is charged, it shouldn't interfere anything, at least as far as in 50cm distance.

The RF noise of wireless charger should barely be able to block FM radio reception in close range.

curious Can someone test this?: Put phone on Qi charger, and try to listen FM radio with internal receiver. (Can't do with Jolla though)

nodevel
2014-08-28, 09:01
I must say that the exact same thing is happening on my HP Veer when charging wirelessly. It is not a faulty charger, but a known issue.

While it may be connected to the charging itself, argumentation with how Qi charging works is not relevant. Unlike Qi compatible phones/covers I know of, HP (Palm) phones have a magnet (and so does the Touchstone) so they snap right on the charger and stay there in a non-horizontal position. It is a fair assumption that the reason why Qi compatible phones do not have touchscreen problems while charging might be the lack of such magnet.

AFAIK all Touchstone compatible phones have such passive magnet and all of them suffer from this issue.

I don't have the Veer with me right now, but it might be interesting to check if the problem occurs when the Touchstone is not plugged in a power outlet.

dirkvl
2014-08-28, 09:25
No change in reception or issues with touchscreen whatsoever will all parts attached!

And it sticks to my fridge now.

HtheB
2014-08-28, 09:52
And it sticks to my fridge now.

Now that is a feature I always wanted!
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/007/754/happy-cuteness-overload-l.png

dirkvl
2014-08-28, 11:52
Started on finetuning Rev2

Changelog for the Base:
-magnets to slightly different position
-connection to bottom part to different position
-reducing size of pcb
-screw holes to clamp pcb to shell
-alignment dimples (holes) for both positions
-added chamfer to camera and flash

2.0.1 (as shown in video)
http://oi61.tinypic.com/6zsdw1.jpg

2.1.1
http://oi57.tinypic.com/2aikor7.jpg

willi6868
2014-08-28, 12:20
Is it possible to open the keyboard with just one thumb without loosing the connection between the two TOH segments? And will the two segments fall apart in the pocket because of some pressure?

I think there should be some (mostly invisible) slide meachanism composed of a flute/ furrow to be able to open the keyboard with one thumb (or am I wrong?) and for giving a 'preset-slide-movement' to the keyboard. :)

Hecraps
2014-08-28, 13:38
This really sounds that your wireless charger (or Pre3) is not feeling well.
Sounds more like strong RF radiation than magnetic field, magnetic field in charger should be just coupled to the receiver coil, and even when nothing is charged,

You mean that... I have a powerful IEM DEVICE ?! :D

I gonna break all those Speed camera on the road ! Mouahahah !

More seriously, I just find my touchstone charger, I made few test. So without any power :

Jolla on it : Nothing happened, the static magnet don't stick to the Jolla, normal response of the screen, no launching.

Jolla near it (3cm) : Idem

With power :

Jolla on it : Nothing happened...

Jolla near it (3cm) : Idem

Jolla near it with HP Pre3 on Touchstone : The screen has a bigger latency on touch response

Jolla near it (3cm) with HP Pr3 at 1 cm over the Touchstone : A sound come from the Touchstone like a bad electric transformer, some perturbation with latency, the phone become dizzy, a little bit slow, that strange.

I put my FM Antenna of my Hifi near the Touchstone, without Pre3 on it, nothing, with pre3, nothing, with pre3 near it (1/2cm), some parasites on the sound.

dirkvl
2014-08-28, 14:12
with pre3 near it (1/2cm), some parasites on the sound.

Sound parasites?!?!?!

http://oi60.tinypic.com/2ztdh83.jpg

misterc
2014-08-28, 16:41
[...]


I don't understand what you are trying to say. Please elaborate!
basically, the concept of the Jolla: no buttons but power & volume rocker. - just my 2 cts.





Not much cost or complexity, but finding a 2-stage camera button that fits within 0.6mm height is a challenge. You are very welcome to join the hunt! (2.2mm if it fits in a cutout (http://www.eurocircuits.com/images/easyblog_images/67/Copper_to_the_board_edge/copper%20to%20the%20pcb%20edge.png))
mmmm :(





Andrew is in charge of the keypad and has full creative freedom in this. This was his latest render (http://i.imgur.com/j8zCCmn.jpg) of what he had in mind, but some minor details will change. Happy?
ok, general design looks good.
like that the function / numbers keys are separated :D :cool:
would it be possible to drop the "joy pad" whatever & use 4 arrows & one or two "mouse" button(s) (if the function is available and that's what the central buton of the pad is
you could also save the pad for the "game pad" you mentioned at the end of your video, maybe? :confused:
this also saves 3 keys space => 3 more free keys :D
why are there 3 Ctrl keys?!?
Esc, anyone? that "windooooz" like looking key top left?!? or is that a programmable key?
any chance to use Shift+Backspace as DEL, as on the N900?
Ctrl+C,Ctrl+X and Ctrl+V as copy cut and paste?


the last two are mostly up to the software implementation i guess...

is the layout of the keyboard discussed somewhere specifically?

HtheB
2014-08-28, 17:07
@misterc

There is only 1 Ctrl, the other 2 are "Char" and used for symbols... :) (in this case, they are for the Orange color)

Kabouik
2014-08-28, 23:52
The magnet design is genius. It basically solves the thickness problem that can be a dealbreaker some days, without the need to replace the OH (which is quite difficult with custom-made OHs).

I think a tiny "sliding channel" would be very welcome to guide (and secure) the open/close movements. This would be especially useful as there are only four magnets on the base part, which means binary positions, which in turn means risk of failure in between.

A single and shalow sliding channel would be enough, no need for one on each side. I am sure you are already using the shallowest thickness available at Shapeways, so I guess the "female" part of the sliding channel would basically be a vent, i.e., a hole going all the way through the plastic. That shouldn't really be a problem though. The base part would obviously be optimal for the female slide, as it does not increase thickness when the keyboard is detached, and does not prevent putting the Jolla flat on a table.

Naive sketch below:

http://reho.st/self/6b00cac4fc7a985190b11a1c15d51dcd88826eaa.png

sid21177
2014-08-29, 05:03
The magnet design is genius. It basically solves the thickness problem that can be a dealbreaker some days, without the need to replace the OH (which is quite difficult with custom-made OHs).

I think a tiny "sliding channel" would be very welcome to guide (and secure) the open/close movements. This would be especially useful as there are only four magnets on the base part, which means binary positions, which in turn means risk of failure in between.

A single and shalow sliding channel would be enough, no need for one on each side. I am sure you are already using the shallowest thickness available at Shapeways, so I guess the "female" part of the sliding channel would basically be a vent, i.e., a hole going all the way through the plastic. That shouldn't really be a problem though. The base part would obviously be optimal for the female slide, as it does not increase thickness when the keyboard is detached, and does not prevent putting the Jolla flat on a table.

Naive sketch below:

http://reho.st/self/6b00cac4fc7a985190b11a1c15d51dcd88826eaa.png

Agree with this observation.
When the top half has the phone in it, the force needed to slide the pad open may be more due to the weight of the phone (think pushing with thumbs)

Too much force may just force the upper half to fly open

A guiding channel and/or stopping point may be needed.

What if instead of 4 magnets in the top half, you have 2 thin magnets running the length of the displacement distance,
You can have 2 parallel grooves/channels in which 2 bumps on the bottom half fit.

Look at the guide mechanism of a N95 for example

dirkvl
2014-08-29, 06:53
wow okay, your both ideas combined seem like a possible solution.

to me, the 'binary' positions is not really an issue, as long as in these positions the connection is secure.

my focus is to make it strong, but keep an extremely clean look. next mockup will have stronger magnets and dimples in the binary positions, if that is not satisfactory, then looking into your combined solution.

thanks for the clear pic :)

Kabouik
2014-08-29, 08:33
Note that I did include a stopping point in the sketch to avoid "overpushing" the Jolla when opening the keyboard. I am not really concerned about it though, the main use would be the slide channel to guide and force straight push.

What I am concerned about, however, is accidental but dramatic risk of fall of the Jolla when open. Even with strong magnets, a force applied perpendicularly on the Jolla (either screen side or battey side) would detach it. Force would need to be strong enough of course, but that can happen very easily when you are using your phone in a crowded area (subway for instance), but also in many other situations.

So, to avoid that, what would be better than the previous pic would be a sliding mechanism like in the pic below:

http://reho.st/self/25c3bcf1d5602393004c9e45afd3191aed863040.png

It would still be very easy to remove the keypad: just open it and go beyond the "open" magnets. The stopping point is on the other end: you can't go beyond the "closed" state. Doing the opposite (putting the stopping point on the other end) would work too, but I am not sure it would be as secure.

Another idea, close to Sid21177's one, is to use metal bars in the base, in between the pairs of L and R magnets. The keypad's magnets would stick to the base's ones in binary positions, and in between (when moving), they will tend to follow the metal bars. I am not sure magnet bars would be needed (plus you would need the same magnetic pole running the length of the bar, whereas poles are most likely on both ends with magnet bars; not sure I'm clear). However that would be less secure than a "hard" system in the plastic as above, and no end point. But more minamistic, aesthetically.

dirkvl
2014-08-29, 13:10
i've given this rail some thought, but i run into the following situation:

1. i made a concept without a hinge or slider
2. now only lock in binary positions with magnets
3a. request to have locking system in binary positions
3b. request to have force between parts between binary positions
3c. request to have sliding rail for alignment
4. implementation in design of 3a,3b&3c
5. i now have made a slider and can remove magnets
6. concept is gone, i go crying in the corner

remarks:
- 3a,3b&3c can not be some separately. if i make a hook, i have to make a cutout over the total lenght to let it slide through. this is a slider rail. if i have a slider rail, i have to have a force between both parts at the entire road. so either a complete rail, or magnets along the way.
- i believe a completely clean design and functionality are completely possible to co-exist
- i love the feel of the current design and think that with two very small alignment dimples this will be more than sufficient

so for now you will have to trust me on this (note: i am an engineer) and have faith in my design philosophy. i will not finish before i am happy with the look and feel.


tl;dr
no sliding rail, hook or magnet bars.

Kabouik
2014-08-29, 14:47
I get your point, just sharing some thoughts and ideas, but you are definitely the one who is making this keyboard OH, no one will say the opposite I think.

If you plan on making two shallow dimples to help guiding the open/close movements, that's already one potential problem solved. I am also very confident in the strength of the magnets to hold the Jolla firmly. My main concern justifying the second sketch is perpendicular force applied on the Jolla when you hold the opened keyboard. This lever effect can happen very often (several times a day) with enough force to detach strong magnets, and in that case, it's the 400 € fragile Jolla that falls on the ground, not the plastic keyboard (admittedly lighter and more solid). Of course, I wouldn't be that concerned if the Jolla was in hands when the keyboard is opened.

But again, that's your baby. Just sharing my concern as a potential consumer of the final product. I will be happy to be proven wrong with any mechanism preventing such issues, no worries!

(I disagree with statement 5. And with a hook, if you mean the triangular rail, you just have to make a cutout starting from one side, not necessarily going all the way to the opposite sitde. But that is off-topic, just replying.)

sid21177
2014-08-29, 19:04
i've given this rail some thought, but i run into the following situation:

1. i made a concept without a hinge or slider
2. now only lock in binary positions with magnets
3a. request to have locking system in binary positions
3b. request to have force between parts between binary positions
3c. request to have sliding rail for alignment
4. implementation in design of 3a,3b&3c
5. i now have made a slider and can remove magnets
6. concept is gone, i go crying in the corner

remarks:
- 3a,3b&3c can not be some separately. if i make a hook, i have to make a cutout over the total lenght to let it slide through. this is a slider rail. if i have a slider rail, i have to have a force between both parts at the entire road. so either a complete rail, or magnets along the way.
- i believe a completely clean design and functionality are completely possible to co-exist
- i love the feel of the current design and think that with two very small alignment dimples this will be more than sufficient

so for now you will have to trust me on this (note: i am an engineer) and have faith in my design philosophy. i will not finish before i am happy with the look and feel.


tl;dr
no sliding rail, hook or magnet bars.

Its more of a guide channel for the force of your thumbs, coz if someone applies uneven pressure you may end up detaching the top half - and that would be bad news for the phone :)

I'm not asking to put rails on anything, just
a) 2 shallow grooves in the top parts' underside, and
b) 2 dimples in the bottom part that fit into the grooves to allow for smooth application of force

When the bump hits the end of the groove, the feedback to the hand/user will make them not push the top part further

2 grooves at the ends instead of 1 in the middle (as in the diagram)

But like others have said, its your baby.
Since you asked for opinions I gave mine :D

robnas
2014-08-30, 07:43
I'd like to add something:
It's good to see there's been really good thought over the Jolla, good work!
The magnets is a good idea, I'm not too afraid of the influence on the electronics. Why: the magnetic field has probably been designed to be strong when close and decrease fast when far enough. When opening a HDD (I did, once), there's a strong magnet in it, approx 2 cm from the data disk. Does it erase data? No.
I work at ASML, on of our product contains a big plate (1x2m) with strong magnets inside. People with pacemakers/metals in thei body aren't allowed to come near (within 15cm). The magnet field within 15cm is strong, outside there's no(t) (enough) influence of the field.

What's bothering me is the possible influence of the magnet(s) on the battery: it could influence, but you won't see it and I don't want it to get on fire after a couple of months...

As I see on the movie, the movement of opening the halves isn't perfect/pure: it's not always going in a straight, controlled way to the other magnets. A groove/rib construction would make it better, maybe a magnetic bar between the magnets, so the halves are pulled softly against eachother.

Your problem with the magnets is, I think, it depends on the stable quality of the magnets and the influence of glueing/placeing on the endresult.

For example: you'll probably have variance in the flux your magnets can create. The fluxe you'll have in the end maybe depends on how much glue is used, the distance between magnet/plastic, maybe not position straight. It's completely theoretically, but it would be a pity if the design fails on this small issues.

By the way:
Congratulations, you're effort has been mentioned on Tweakers (http://tweakers.net/nieuws/98127/nederlander-toont-verbeterde-versie-qwerty-toetsenbord-jolla-smartphone.html#r_7152404) (dutch tech-site)

blood_falcon
2014-08-31, 10:02
so, bro dirkvl, when the keyboard will be available? is it will be in very small and limited quantity too like the first one?

dirkvl
2014-08-31, 10:08
so, bro dirkvl, when the keyboard will be available? is it will be in very small and limited quantity too like the first one?

no idea and large quantities :)

blood_falcon
2014-08-31, 10:18
oh yeah, almost forgot, do you also provide shipping to overseas, as far as Southeast Asia region???

dirkvl
2014-08-31, 10:40
i'll send it to the moon of needed!

Mikkosssss
2014-08-31, 11:54
I want one when they are ready!

Have you thought about any kind of tilt mechanism?

dirkvl
2014-08-31, 12:50
Have you thought about any kind of tilt mechanism?

yes, but there will be no tilt mechanism unfortunately

Mikkosssss
2014-08-31, 13:47
Just interested what kind of mechanism you came up with so I can add it to my Tohkbd if I get one, because its half of the reasons I am getting one.
I have few ideas but your might be better.

mjtorn
2014-08-31, 17:22
Started on finetuning Rev2

Changelog for the Base:
-magnets to slightly different position


Looking good! The magnets definitely blew my mind :eek:

Other people have raised the concern of force dropping the phone off the keyboard. I used to hold the N900 pretty tight, but I got a real huge Mugen battery, which also made it firmer in your hand. If there's no physical protection against oops-I-didn't-see-you-because-I-turned-the-corner-running-while-you're-texting-sorry-was-that-your-phone I really hope it's possible to hold on to the phone tight ;)

The pricing question probably went already, but if it's as cool as it seems, it works and the magnets aren't a risk, you tell me where you want the 150 euros :D Would be nice if that would include a Finnish keyboard layout though!

PS.
Does the firmware on the back speak only keyboard, so no chance of having eg. OLED OHs with magnets? But how cool is it that we might some day get one, because this design is good and upgradeable :cool:

dirkvl
2014-08-31, 17:33
We'll see how firm it is connected with mockup2! (two weeks or so)

Yes, every current hardware application could clip on, but if you want an oled screen on the back then doing that with this base will be highly inefficient.



Also, made some more pics (goo.gl/dB6pZe)!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwXxa6wIcAA2NfB.jpg

Dave999
2014-08-31, 17:44
i'll send it to the moon of needed!

Good! Im waiting for one right there. Thank you for your invested free time. This goes for the whole three man team.

How thick is IT in mm?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lizetwvkypvktms/AAArPpHe9OSlUHgyPykoMveMa?dl=0#lh:null-2014-08-31%2016.35.52.jpg

dirkvl
2014-08-31, 17:51
How thick is IT in mm?

Base (that attaches to phone) will make the phone 2.2 mm thicker

Bottom is 5mm

droll
2014-09-01, 01:45
how do I sign up for pre-order or at least put my name on a list for when its available? :)

btw, for those worried about the keyboard falling off - is there a way to put in some sliding gutters that hold it in place permanently and only lock when you slide it to the magnet positions? just an idea anyway. but that would mean the keyboard cannot be swapped with other keyboards or gamepads.

the gutter would be like curtain rails e.g. http://www.goelst.com/uploads/images/Gallery/6200/6200.jpg - see how the hooks are attached to the rails? they cannot be removed. but it would also make the other half cover thicker...

mjtorn
2014-09-01, 05:37
We'll see how firm it is connected with mockup2! (two weeks or so)

Yes, every current hardware application could clip on, but if you want an oled screen on the back then doing that with this base will be highly inefficient.



May I ask what inefficient means in this context?

The issues I've heard people have about TOH is a) carrying them with them b) actually changing them eg. downtown or wherever.

If your magnet-based solution supports anything (protocol-wise, as long as it has magnets), you solved most of the problem, bro :cool:



Also, made some more pics (goo.gl/dB6pZe)!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwXxa6wIcAA2NfB.jpg

Sweet :)

dirkvl
2014-09-01, 06:42
is there a way to put in some sliding gutters that hold it in place permanently and only lock when you slide it to the magnet positions? just an idea anyway. but that would mean the keyboard cannot be swapped with other keyboards or gamepads.


read this page (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93156&page=14)



May I ask what inefficient means in this context?

with inefficient i mean the unnecessary thickness. with the keyboard you have to have two parts, but for all other functionality you are better off with a regular toh, not with adding it to my magnets. but yes, it is possible.

robnas
2014-09-01, 07:00
Again:

What's the possible influence of the magnets on the battery. I don't want my Jolla catch fire or leak after some months...

dirkvl
2014-09-01, 07:37
using the power of the eugoogelizer, i have found this:

- DONT DO IT, IT WILL EXPLODE AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
- its fine, people even connect li-ions together with neodymiums, claiming they had no problems for years

pic your side ;)

dirkvl
2014-09-05, 11:08
keyboard has been connected to my phone for a week now, but the battery refuses to explode...

also, it works.
youtu.be/IV1lS_IUVxg

Kabouik
2014-09-05, 11:19
What happens when you reposition the keypad part? Does it reconnect instantly on the software side?

dirkvl
2014-09-05, 11:32
What happens when you reposition the keypad part? Does it reconnect instantly on the software side?

it currently runs the rev1-software, but this will be modified for some extra functionality.

blood_falcon
2014-09-05, 13:17
Nice, bro

I think it won't be long till the keyboard finished right? Say, maybe end of this month???

dirkvl
2014-09-05, 13:23
Nice, bro

I think it won't be long till the keyboard finished right? Say, maybe end of this month???

Ha, good one! ;)

Things that will take time:
PCB production and soldering
Keypad manufacturing

PCB and keypad both not finalized, so don't hold your breath over it.

dirkvl
2014-09-05, 13:38
some pics of mockup 1 (red) & mockup 2 (just arrived, white)

connection to bottom, will be at a different place and will be cleaned up. but to give an impression.
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/ql6zhty1hwh7hmk/2014-09-05%2012.31.34.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/347ge5h2td0s13j/2014-09-05%2012.30.57.jpg



mockup 2

changelog:
-magnets to slightly different position
-added toh-triggerfinger
-connection to bottom part to different position
-reducing size of base-pcb
-screw holes to clamp pcb to shell
-alignment dimples (holes) for both positions
-added chamfer to camera and flash

overview
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/v6sd2qxl0cp8yx1/2014-09-05%2016.15.45.jpg

dimples for alignment
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/j82gg6u9nt7htih/2014-09-05%2016.16.56.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/xedef04dp5i0oli/2014-09-05%2016.16.41.jpg

connection between parts, added screwholes
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/e3gl11hxyftenxx/2014-09-05%2016.16.02.jpg

waiting for bigger magnets
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/y4n96ametjvfz3q/2014-09-05%2016.16.23.jpg

screws to secure pcb
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/h42yqaqklvlpinj/2014-09-05%2016.52.17.jpg


comments and thoughts
-dimples work perfect for aligning the kb, feels very solid
-as a concequence, the opening/closing is not feeling less awesome, have to reshape dimples
-magnets apparently have to stay a week (or longer?) at customs
-connection between parts works, but needs refining, more details on that later
-screws to secure pcb look cool

jalyst
2014-09-05, 16:02
Loving the running commentary you're giving, it piques folks curiosity/interest, & increases the chance they'll engage & offer ideas/criticism/kudos. Any chance of another video soon?

dirkvl
2014-09-05, 16:15
Loving the running commentary you're giving, it piques folks curiosity/interest, & increases the chance they'll engage & offer ideas/criticism/kudos.

that is the intention! all the things i mention and comment about myself are open for critique. i might not always agree or be willing to change, but it is -in engineering at least- important to have considered all options.

so please, do critique or ask why i've made certain decisions! but do your research! :)

Any chance of another video soon?

when i have the feeling something is ready or needs to be shown :)

you already got one today by the way!

jalyst
2014-09-05, 16:20
(1) +1

(2) Sometimes things are explained better via video...
E.g. a video equivalent of that last big post for some folks (not all), would convey things better.
But yes, I do note that you did one today, & thanks for that.

dirkvl
2014-09-06, 14:09
ordered 4000 M1.6x3mm screws. 'for testing'

http://www.accuscrews.co.uk/22428-thickbox_default/SPK-M1-6-3-A2.jpg

sorry for the extremely uninteresting post. i realize you saw that there was a new post by me and expected something crazy. but that is not going to come. just a cardboard box filled with screws. sorry.

juiceme
2014-09-06, 14:35
What a beautiful rendering of a screw! :)
Only.... the thing in da picture is M1.5x10 if I am not mistaken...

droll
2014-09-07, 00:32
4000 screws just for testing? :P

Jordi
2014-09-07, 06:41
Your work is very impressive! And you are doing this on your own?

I had previously no interest for a keyboard but now, seeing how it looks, I'm changing my mind.

ced117
2014-09-07, 08:26
This new keyboard looks great !
I want it :D

dirkvl
2014-09-07, 11:42
question to you all:

would it be weird to (pre-)sell and deliver the base and bottom separately, with some time (say 2/3 months) in between?

to prevent cashflow and logistic issues on my side

Dave999
2014-09-07, 12:14
question to you all:

would it be weird to (pre-)sell and deliver the base and bottom separately, with some time (say 2/3 months) in between?

to prevent cashflow and logistic issues on my side

Yes. That would be a bit weird. :D

Sell them at the same time but delivery could be delivered separately even if it would be nice to get them at the same time.

But since you are a one man business I say it's fine. Just a bit weird.

Isn't hardware keyboard phone a bit weird Nowdays anyway? ;) So who cares. Just ship it.

nodevel
2014-09-07, 12:17
question to you all:

would it be weird to (pre-)sell and deliver the base and bottom separately, with some time (say 2/3 months) in between?

to prevent cashflow and logistic issues on my side

Weird? Definitely. Bad? Not necessarily.

I don't see the advantage, though - what if, say, you discover some flaw 1 month after sending out the bases... Bases will stay somewhere in a drawer, unused, while it will be too late to change them.

dirkvl
2014-09-07, 12:20
okay, but say people pre-order a keyboard, would it then be better to keep the base here till the bottom is also ready? seems like the more logical thing to do

blood_falcon
2014-09-07, 12:23
yes, I think until all completed properly then you only send the keyboard bro

dirkvl
2014-09-07, 12:27
cool. i'll go for that then!

apfibox
2014-09-07, 13:21
Pre-order => Prepayment :)

dirkvl
2014-09-07, 14:05
working on revising the last cad model

-resizing and reshaping alignment pins
-magnets to other position
-minimizing distance between bottom and base magnets
-resizing pcb
-reshaping electrical connection between parts

new video when this one is ready.

pichlo
2014-09-07, 14:22
Isn't hardware keyboard phone a bit weird Nowdays anyway?

That sentence indicates that you confuse "weird" and "unusual". With that in mind, I totally agree with you.

apfibox
2014-09-07, 14:35
Seems that Lastucase.com is working to release wooden TOH for Jolla. Would it be interesting to talk with them to learn if they could make the TOHKB v2 base + kb_part entirely from wood using your CAD design?

https://together.jolla.com/question/44252/wooden-toh/

"For now our product for Jolla is wooden skin, but we are planning to release Other Half -model too."

Lastucase could be also interesting channel partner for the end product as they have reseller network already in place. Maybe they'd license the design from you to reach larger audience?

Dave999
2014-09-07, 14:36
That sentence indicates that you confuse "weird" and "unusual". With that in mind, I totally agree with you.

You might be right or completely wrong. But its weird that its unusual.

I followed the pattern of dirks post, he used 'weird' instead of other words so I just followed suit.

jalyst
2014-09-07, 15:11
Seems that Lastucase.com is working to release wooden TOH for Jolla. Would it be interesting to talk with them to learn if they could make the TOHKB v2 base + kb_part entirely from wood using your CAD design?

https://together.jolla.com/question/44252/wooden-toh/

"For now our product for Jolla is wooden skin, but we are planning to release Other Half -model too."

Lastucase could be also interesting channel partner for the end product as they have reseller network already in place. Maybe they'd license the design from you to reach larger audience?

See earlier in the the thread, he is in-fact already planning to work with Lastu.
*UPDATE*
Explained in the video here IIRC...
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1437086#post1437086

What's with the lame new captchas before posting, I do hope that's not a permanent thing?

dirkvl
2014-09-07, 15:31
See earlier in the the thread, he is in-fact already planning to work with Lastu.
*UPDATE*
Explained in the video here IIRC...
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1437086#post1437086

yes, already planning to work with them, expecting testpiece this week.

love the idea of making it entirely out of wood, but this is unrealistic. too expensive, not the same quality, not enough capacity.

apfibox
2014-09-07, 16:10
yes, already planning to work with them, expecting testpiece this week.

love the idea of making it entirely out of wood, but this is unrealistic. too expensive, not the same quality, not enough capacity.

I understand your conserns but perhaps it's worth while asking about cost and quality to be sure this is out of bounds.

Don't get me wrong. I also like idea about wooden skinning that you're working with Lastu.

BTW, have you ever considered wooden kb buttons to go with wooden skinning (if the skinning idea will prevail)?

mjtorn
2014-09-07, 20:15
yes, I think until all completed properly then you only send the keyboard bro
cool. i'll go for that then!


Not my call or anything, but I disagree slightly with this.

Having the phone-side part of this available before the keybaord part makes sense for developers. I wouldn't mind having any and all other halves connect to the magnetic back panel, even if it makes the phone thicker. Talking to people about this I'm not the only one :)

Thoke
2014-09-08, 13:00
I'm not sure I'd be willing to purchase the whole package and get the two parts separately, but I understand your reasons. Hopefully this project will be succesful!

NokiaFanatic
2014-09-08, 13:57
A wooden TOH?

Could this idea get any better?

What's the story with ordering?

dirkvl
2014-09-08, 14:06
A wooden TOH?

Could this idea get any better?


on top of this page:

love the idea of making it entirely out of wood, but this is unrealistic. too expensive, not the same quality, not enough capacity.
there will be some wood however, but not entire parts.



What's the story with ordering?

also mentioned lots of time, not yet. too many uncertainties. when (pre-)ordering opens, you will know.

dirkvl
2014-09-08, 17:03
Mockup of Andrews keypad, to test shape, size and outline. Will not be printed like this later.

First impression: we are heading the right way

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/gkdajfwj7h92dga/2014-09-08%2015.42.112.jpg

Kabouik
2014-09-08, 19:37
when (pre-)ordering opens, you will know.

Well, speaking of that... Don't forget to warn your "usual" customers (tobkbd1, diptoh, solartoh, and so on) when you start taking orders, and before all pieces are sold. :]

Please. :>

dirkvl
2014-09-08, 20:16
Well, speaking of that... Don't forget to warn your "usual" customers (tobkbd1, diptoh, solartoh, and so on) when you start taking orders, and before all pieces are sold. :]

Please. :>

affirmative

minimos
2014-09-09, 05:13
Maybe the split delivery package could gather more consensus if you could include in the base part any extra (funky?) functionality, so that by itself it's not totally useless.
Something that wouldn't require to completely re-engineer the base board, so prob. not much more than some blinkenlights?

droll
2014-09-09, 06:48
will your keyboard have programmable backlights? :)

juiceme
2014-09-09, 07:00
Maybe the split delivery package could gather more consensus if you could include in the base part any extra (funky?) functionality, so that by itself it's not totally useless.
Something that wouldn't require to completely re-engineer the base board, so prob. not much more than some blinkenlights?

Ya, +1 for blinkenlights!
We definetly need moar blinkenlights!!

kimmoli
2014-09-09, 08:19
my 10 chars...
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-lb7dpywdmP8/VA63q4fu8EI/AAAAAAAAHoU/Qa_MkUQsn-I/w309-h351-no/leddies.jpg

robnas
2014-09-09, 14:12
Will there be a construction, so tohkbd will be guided when opening/closing? Is it also possible to let one of the parts fall out of your hand while moving?

dirkvl
2014-09-09, 14:37
Will there be a construction, so tohkbd will be guided when opening/closing? Is it also possible to let one of the parts fall out of your hand while moving?

scan through the last pages from this thread (from page 14 up), question is asked and answered before.

hkultala
2014-09-12, 05:34
Maybe the split delivery package could gather more consensus if you could include in the base part any extra (funky?) functionality, so that by itself it's not totally useless.
Something that wouldn't require to completely re-engineer the base board, so prob. not much more than some blinkenlights?

No.

It's a keyboard, not a space shuttle.

And space shuttle became much too expensive to use exactly because of this kind of stupid featurism, "lets throw everything including kitchen sink".

hkultala
2014-09-12, 05:40
Maybe the split delivery package could gather more consensus if you could include in the base part any extra (funky?) functionality, so that by itself it's not totally useless.
Something that wouldn't require to completely re-engineer the base board, so prob. not much more than some blinkenlights?

No.

It should be a keybord, not a space shuttle.

And space shuttle became much too expensive to use exactly because of this kind of stupid featurism. It should have been a "cheap full-reusable taxi to space station" but they ended up making it a "semi-reusable truck" instead because of requirement creep.

I want a keyboard this year, not a christmas tree with integrated keyboard next year.

dirkvl
2014-09-12, 12:40
Next testpieces are in!

- Reshaped alignment pins (less high and less steep), feel a lot better
- Keyboard is now completely reversible!

High-rez pics (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/atlalxjc22igy6y/AAA-_3G3EwxsGJ08J3xRrUHca?dl=0)

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/6okgzh53ripb40u/P1000983_lowrez.jpg

blood_falcon
2014-09-12, 13:53
Nice pics, all that's left is keymat and keypad right?

dirkvl
2014-09-12, 16:17
Nice pics, all that's left is keymat and keypad right?

yes, that square will be filled with one giant keypad!

blood_falcon
2014-09-12, 21:52
ouch for the sarcasm. btw, have you already finalised the keyboard layout for this one?

dirkvl
2014-09-13, 06:36
ouch for the sarcasm. btw, have you already finalised the keyboard layout for this one?

no, still being refined! check andrews twitter for latest renders :)

evk
2014-09-13, 19:07
What pins will be available in the connection between the two parts? Would it be possible to use it for charging?

dirkvl
2014-09-13, 19:12
What pins will be available in the connection between the two parts? Would it be possible to use it for charging?

yes, all 6 pins will be available!!

evk
2014-09-14, 07:43
yes, all 6 pins will be available!!
Great. That'll make it possible to build a charging station. As a replacement for wireless charging.

If the magnetic attachment of the keyboard works as well as you say, it's really a fantastic idea.

dirkvl
2014-09-14, 08:09
Great. That'll make it possible to build a charging station. As a replacement for wireless charging.

http://media3.giphy.com/media/I5qb3xAA9lNyo/giphy.gif (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVVfZAZdIUs)

when the design is final, will share the dimensions etc, in case someone else feels the urge to make a killer docking station!

Dave999
2014-09-14, 09:41
http://media3.giphy.com/media/I5qb3xAA9lNyo/giphy.gif (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVVfZAZdIUs)

when the design is final, will share the dimensions etc, in case someone else feels the urge to make a killer docking station!

Thats how i want My keyboard. Gold letters on black keys and LOTs of bling bling. **** yeah

dirkvl
2014-09-14, 10:27
Thats how i want My keyboard. Gold letters on black keys and LOTs of bling bling. **** yeah

black+gold with wood on the back? i don't see that working!

but feel free to join the design team as 'head of deluxe edition'!

Dave999
2014-09-14, 12:05
black+gold with wood on the back? i don't see that working!

but feel free to join the design team as 'head of deluxe edition'!

unfortunately i dont have time, the life take to much of my time. Consider me more as a cracy fanboy or a cheerleader of the project.

dirkvl
2014-09-14, 13:13
Consider me more as a cracy fanboy or a cheerleader of the project.

In that case I go for cheerleader (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAK9AZlptx8&t=1m7s)

Dave999
2014-09-14, 13:32
In that case I go for cheerleader (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAK9AZlptx8&t=1m7s)

I can live With that. Im cheering and Im a Leader.
Video Not working. Im too sexy for...youtube. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5mtclwloEQ&sns=em) :D

robnas
2014-09-15, 04:00
I can live With that. Im cheering and Im a Leader.
Video Not working.

NO!! You're using iOS, don't you?
Curse you!

When can we expect the keyboard to be producable? When it's ready? Around christmas?

dirkvl
2014-09-15, 06:28
When can we expect the keyboard to be producable? When it's ready? Around christmas?

That is really hard to say and depends on so many different things

droll
2014-09-15, 06:36
Thats how i want My keyboard. Gold letters on black keys and LOTs of bling bling. **** yeah

I second that. GOLD on BLACK KEYS. chrome strips and black plastic casing. ooooooooh yeaaaaaah.

Dave999
2014-09-15, 07:40
NO!! You're using iOS, don't you?
Curse you!



I do, my iPad is one of my tablets,yes. But I use several Oss sail,ff,Maemo,Meego,WebOS and android. I definitely using Android most of the time right now, mostly becouse of its options and hw. What I really looking for is a big slider keyboard device. And that's why I'm in this thread. I hope this triggers jolla and others to bring back the slider...but so far out of options.

I second that. GOLD on BLACK KEYS. chrome strips and black plastic casing. ooooooooh yeaaaaaah.

+3

Kabouik
2014-09-15, 08:22
I prefer white and blue (special chars) on black, but I guess it's a bit early to discuss color choices at this point. :]

dirkvl
2014-09-15, 08:58
I prefer white and blue (special chars) on black, but I guess it's a bit early to discuss color choices at this point. :]

it is absolutely not an early stage to discuss colours on keypad!!!!

andrew is now finalizing the design and looking into production facilities, so please share your (if, and only if, well funded!) ideas!

note: the current design has already A LOT of thought in it and has already been the topic of discussion quite often, so radical changes are no longer a possibility. small subtle stuff, maybe. but come with you guns loaded.

Kabouik
2014-09-15, 09:57
Well, then white and light blue for special characters, on black keys. :)

I've owned both keyboards with these colours and keyboards with yellowish/gold on black, and my preference is clear.

Most of all, we need a quiet keyboard. The N900 keyboard is silent and at the same time has a great tactile feedback. I used lots of other keyboards and none had the same feeling, that's a shame. It's really important in my opinion.

Finally, several localized hardware layouts, not only software. I know Scandinavian and English are planned, but I hope AZERTY will be available too, for the keyboard to be really useful (for me) considering its likely price.

evk
2014-09-15, 10:06
I tend to prefer blank keys. Printed symbols only make things confusing if you don't use the same layout as the keyboard was designed for.

vistaus
2014-09-15, 11:14
I second that. GOLD on BLACK KEYS. chrome strips and black plastic casing. ooooooooh yeaaaaaah.

I second this as well :)

Fellfrosch
2014-09-15, 11:27
I tend to prefer blank keys. Printed symbols only make things confusing if you don't use the same layout as the keyboard was designed for.

δhh.. please don't do that. I think if there are printed keypads it shouldn't be so difficult to get an "naked" one from Dirk.
I need the symbols on the Keypad, and i would like to have a qwertz one. (But would also accept a qwerty). A completely naked one would be a deal breaker for me.

juiceme
2014-09-15, 15:13
I tend to prefer blank keys. Printed symbols only make things confusing if you don't use the same layout as the keyboard was designed for.

Yes, that's the true hacker alternative :) :)
And to make it even better you should use an own layout, not qwerty nor azerty not dvorak :D

malkavian
2014-09-15, 16:08
Try Maltron layout, and even better, Maltron shape for the TOHKBD XD.

http://xahlee.info/kbd/i3/Maltron_keyboard.jpg

meverik
2014-09-15, 16:13
i'm also looking forward to a qwertz-layout

dirkvl
2014-09-15, 17:01
please please please stop giving your preferations for qwerty/qwertz/azerty/whatever! this is all taken care of!

this is helpful:
Well, then white and light blue for special characters, on black keys. :)

I've owned both keyboards with these colours and keyboards with yellowish/gold on black, and my preference is clear.

Most of all, we need a quiet keyboard. The N900 keyboard is silent and at the same time has a great tactile feedback. I used lots of other keyboards and none had the same feeling, that's a shame. It's really important in my opinion.

this is noise:
i'm also looking forward to a qwertz-layout

Dave999
2014-09-15, 17:20
please please please stop giving your preferations for qwerty/qwertz/azerty/whatever! this is all taken care of!

this is helpful:


this is noise:

I think we need another thread then...everyone like different ;)

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv293/A_Ronaldo_07/a427_singlehand.jpg

Just for poeple who like to discuss the project, progress or related stuff without interfering with your information?

dirkvl
2014-09-15, 18:59
I think we need another thread then...everyone like different ;)

yes, please do all that in this thread (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91539)

robnas
2014-09-16, 11:16
scan through the last pages from this thread (from page 14 up), question is asked and answered before.

Conclusion: no change in design, only alignmentshapes for end positions. That's ok, I'll see if it's enough when the design is ready.

wazd
2014-09-16, 11:25
If you want to know anything about the design or discuss/suggest, you can ask me, I guess, just so that I can take some hits for Dirk :D
And to start with something.

QWERTZ layout is technically impossible right now because all our "raw" keypads would most probably have QWERTY right from the factory to save costs, we're terribly sorry for that but we don't have another option for now.

Having said that I should state, that this fact does not mean there would be no way to modify that "raw" keypad to have additional characters of your taste, whole design has been developed around this idea.

vistaus
2014-09-16, 11:55
That Maltron looks very inconvenient. The only one I'd like to see besides QWERTY is Dvorak.

malkavian
2014-09-16, 22:21
That Maltron looks very inconvenient. The only one I'd like to see besides QWERTY is Dvorak.

That was obviously a joke. Maltron is ergonomically great for using with hands but not just with two thumbs as in a mobile.

By the way Dirkvl said talking about layouts here is noise and we could talk about that things here: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91539

dirkvl
2014-09-17, 11:09
Small update on current activities

timeline:
- waiting on base-pcb for last mockup
- keypad is being finalized
- after the keypad is done, the domesheet can be designed and ordered
- after that the bottom-pcb can be designed and tested
- finalizing design for production

moneyz:
- waiting on quote for lastucase backsides
- waiting on quote for keypad production
- still have to ask for a quote on domesheet
- investigating costs of pcb soldering
these costs are needed for making an accurate estimation for the eventual cost and are all needed before opening pre-orders

got some emails with questions regarding the date when the keyboards will be ready to ship, but given the above uncertainties it may be clear i cannot possibly comment on this. but work is in progress.

dirkvl
2014-09-22, 14:36
Rough estimate for pricing tohkbd2: 130E


This is for a white keyboard and wooden back (just like latest mockup (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/atlalxjc22igy6y/AAA-_3G3EwxsGJ08J3xRrUHca?dl=0#/))

Amount is determined by adding into account:
- sum of parts
- outsourced labour
- insourced labour (#me)
- risk
- taxes


Pre-ordering will not start before i have a working proto that is adequately tested. However, you can support by donating or ordering the SolarTOH

cvp
2014-09-22, 15:27
sounds good.
Is it possible to print QWERTZ on the keyboard?

bluefoot
2014-09-22, 15:29
Rough estimate for pricing tohkbd2: 130E


This is for a white keyboard and wooden back (just like latest mockup (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/atlalxjc22igy6y/AAA-_3G3EwxsGJ08J3xRrUHca?dl=0#/))

Amount is determined by adding into account:
- sum of parts
- outsourced labour
- insourced labour (#me)
- risk
- taxes


Pre-ordering will not start before i have a working proto that is adequately tested. However, you can support by donating or ordering the SolarTOH

Sounds good. As it's already reached this kind of price, and people are no doubt willing to pay, I'd urge you not to make any unnecessary cost savings and make it the most solid, high quality product you possibly can :)

As I assume you're going to have the wooden back remain as a Lastucase, have you enquired of them whether they have any contacts who might prove useful for manufacture / assembly?

dirkvl
2014-09-22, 15:35
sounds good.
Is it possible to print QWERTZ on the keyboard?

scan through the topic, mentioned lots of times: yes, there will me a lot of different layouts.

Sounds good. As it's already reached this kind of price, and people are no doubt willing to pay, I'd urge you not to make any unnecessary cost savings and make it the most solid, high quality product you possibly can :)

noted.


As I assume you're going to have the wooden back remain as a Lastucase, have you enquired of them whether they have any contacts who might prove useful for manufacture / assembly?

I have already some addresses. ;)

Kabouik
2014-09-22, 16:17
Sounds fair for a custom made product, especially if the quality is there! I'm still in.

I second Bluefoot's message about unnecessary cost savings versus quality and reliability (and please, please, a silent domesheet, but I suppose this does not depend on you).

MartinK
2014-09-22, 16:35
I also think the price is adequte, just considering the huge ammount of work that went into the project (Thanks again!)! :)

BTW, any plans for a Gamegripper for the TOHKBD and/or a "gaming" layout ? :) (just an idea ;-) )

dirkvl
2014-09-22, 16:44
I also think the price is adequte, just considering the huge ammount of work that went into the project (Thanks again!)! :)

BTW, any plans for a Gamegripper for the TOHKBD and/or a "gaming" layout ? :) (just an idea ;-) )

It will be very possible to make a gaming bottom piece, but not a priority at the moment. But feel free to jump in ;)

MartinK
2014-09-22, 17:10
It will be very possible to make a gaming bottom piece, but not a priority at the moment.
Sure, first things first. :)

But feel free to jump in ;)
I'm probably too busy to build one myself, but you can register my interest for getting one once you start making them. :)

Dave999
2014-09-22, 17:47
I cant afford IT right now. What to do sell a kidney?

vistaus
2014-09-22, 17:52
The price is a little higher than I expected, but I'd still buy it nonetheless :) #physicalkeyboardftw

Mikkosssss
2014-09-22, 18:02
Can I have one without wooden back?

dirkvl
2014-09-22, 18:05
Can I have one without wooden back?

possible answers:

- yes
- no
- maybe
- not yet
- why?!

bluefoot
2014-09-22, 19:34
To go back to quality again ... I really don't think many people want a keyboard (for general use as opposed to dev work) for the sake of having a keyboard, or if they do they'll be disappointed if they go back to one that isn't great.

Though having said this, legibility of the Jolla's screen in daylight is so poor, having ANY keyboard would be great for text entry when not dark / indoors.

Personally, I still dream about the awesome keyboard in the Nokia E71 (though obviously of a different type and layout).

Mikkosssss
2014-09-22, 20:09
possible answers:

- yes
- no
- maybe
- not yet
- why?!

Could you also give percentages about response options?

Thoke
2014-09-22, 20:42
Can I have one without wooden back?

I was also pondering this, out of curiosity. I might take one without lastucase if it lowered the total price :D (or might not, that wooden skin doesn't look bad...)

PS: Great job on keeping us updated. Even though I personally won't order before first reviews hit the web I nevertheless appreciate your efforts on this. This is a must have TOH if it's done right! So far so good! :)

Kabouik
2014-09-22, 22:27
possible answers:

- yes
- no
- maybe
- not yet
- why?!

The why is obvious. The wooden back makes the keyboard a "look at me I'm beautiful"-OH, just like shiny golden iPhones. The phone will already by thick enough to be noticed by many people, I don't want to attract their remarks and questions more than that. I don't want a luxury phone, just a useful and discrete one with as much open source and Linux chunks as possible inside. :)

There will be two groups of customers of course, those who want a beautiful keyboard, and those who want a keyboard on a "don't look at me, I'm normal"-phone. Both are right, both are wrong!

Perhaps it will change the price too, but I don't know it yet so that's not the decisive part for me. And anyway, it's too early apparently, just answering to the "why?" and seconding that wood-less keyboards would be cool. :)

vistaus
2014-09-22, 22:49
To go back to quality again ... I really don't think many people want a keyboard (for general use as opposed to dev work) for the sake of having a keyboard, or if they do they'll be disappointed if they go back to one that isn't great.

Though having said this, legibility of the Jolla's screen in daylight is so poor, having ANY keyboard would be great for text entry when not dark / indoors.

Personally, I still dream about the awesome keyboard in the Nokia E71 (though obviously of a different type and layout).

I miss typing on a physical keyboard. Jolla's keyboard is pretty good for an onscreen keyboard, but it's just not the same. I don't do dev work (on the go) but general typing (WhatsApp, web browser, Twitter, etc.) is just so much better with a physical keyboard. I still keep my HP Pre 3 near. I don't use it anymore since I switched to Jolla, but sometimes I just look back at it and think about the happy times I had typing on that wonderful physical keyboard.
Landscape like TOH rev2 will be a bit different at first, I guess, but any physical keyboard with non-flat keys will be better than onscreen for sure.

Kabouik
2014-09-22, 23:25
Software question to Kimmo: is it reasonable to expect key combinations for some system-wide features, or is it impossible on the software side? I'm thinking about features like Ctrl+C/X/V with (hopefully) system-wide clipboard, Alt+Tab (or Ctrl+Backspace like on Maemo), and so on.

Those shortcuts are a huge part of the better typing experience with hardware keyboards compared to touch ones.