View Full Version : An 800 pound gorilla has just entered the room.
Apple today announced their new internet tablet device. The iTouch
The simularities with the N800 beg the question as to which is better.
It comes with the Safari browser and a YouTube viewer.
It also comes with 16gigs memory
Who is going to get one? Is it an N800 killer?
this may be the device I wanted the N800 to be.
discuss among yourselves..
omegaone37
2007-09-05, 23:08
First of all, its not the iTouch... its the iPod Touch.
Second... its not the N800 killer by any means.
It will never have VoIP... it will never have video.
At least not in this iteration.
So... buy one and add it to your arsenal.
Regards...
Omega
Milhouse
2007-09-05, 23:29
Gee, thanks for Searching before posting.
http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9523
barry99705
2007-09-05, 23:30
First of all, its not the iTouch... its the iPod Touch.
Second... its not the N800 killer by any means.
It will never have VoIP... it will never have video.
At least not in this iteration.
So... buy one and add it to your arsenal.
Regards...
Omega
What the hell are you talking about it not having video?
It's a sexy bit of Apple design, naturally.
But I'll take my more powerful n800, thank you. I don't spend my days in Starbucks buying Apple's overpriced DRM-poisoned music while watching YouTube videos of extreme BMXers somersaulting into a river. So I'm really not the target customer.
Miss Teen North Carolina and other "USA Americans" will want one, I'm sure. ;-)
If the surfing at 480 is reasonable, it might be the killer for me.
I would hardly call Apple an 800 pound anything. If anything else, they're the 110 pound cult leader trying to take people to Heaven's Gate.
omegaone37
2007-09-06, 00:01
What the hell are you talking about it not having video?
Oh.... my bad.... I guess I missed the part where the iPod Touch had a video camera. :rolleyes:
Regards...
Omega
Oh.... my bad.... I guess I missed the part where the iPod Touch had a video camera. :rolleyes:
Regards...
Omega
...and it works as well as the N800's on a Skype call. :p
Milhouse
2007-09-06, 00:47
I would hardly call Apple an 800 pound anything. If anything else, they're the 110 pound cult leader trying to take people to Heaven's Gate.
It's worth noting that the Starbucks support for the Touch is taking place in stages, over the next 6-9 months and so far only seems to cover about 5 cities/conurbations in the USA:
After its debut in New York and Seattle on October 2, the iTunes Wi-Fi Music Store will continue its national rollout to 350 Starbucks stores in the San Francisco Bay area on November 7; 500 stores in Los Angeles in early February 2008; 300 stores in Chicago in March 2008; and additional markets throughout the US later in 2008.
So, pretty limited US-only support for a significantly hyped feature of the new Touch, so limited in fact that it renders it even more pointless for those of us outside the USA... and to be honest, it's not even going to be available to most people within the USA!
I would hardly call Apple an 800 pound anything. If anything else, they're the 110 pound cult leader trying to take people to Heaven's Gate.
lol... exactly. I have a lot of respect for their marketing machine (better than Microsoft's in some respects, which is saying a lot), but come on guys let's be real. Apple excels in design and hype. That's it. Their products are not gold-plated. They are not defect-free. They do not last forever. They have sharp designs wrapped around solid functionality promoted by great hype and supported by a reputable company. But the key word in all of that is HYPE. If Apple fan boys were to one day wake up in a hype-free world, and rub the film from their eyes, they'd see that Apple has serious competition that just can't get a handle on marketing. BUT-- if any ever does... watch out, Cupertino! Your tiny market share of the vast electronics device pie may get even smaller.
I'm betting on Nintendo or Sandisk. Or a merger between the two...
Milhouse
2007-09-06, 01:37
Apple may well be the VHS of this world, but we all know what happened to the superior Betamax product. People WANT Apple products. Ordinary people, not techy or geeks, are lusting after Apple products, whether they need them or not - they just want them. That kind of demand is priceless, and it rapidly leads to third-party support and a great eco system.
Nokia NITs don't have that kind of consumer demand, so while the NITs may be superior in several respects most people just don't care - they know what they want and it's an Apple! :)
Highlighting possible defects in the Touch or criticising Apple for having a great marketing department is not going to help Nokia in the future - they need to improve their marketing while also offering products that Joe Public desires and will pre-order to acquire. :D
If Nokia need to hype their products then so be it - commence the hype. Don't hold back on those secrets you're keeping!!!! :D
barry99705
2007-09-06, 01:39
Oh.... my bad.... I guess I missed the part where the iPod Touch had a video camera. :rolleyes:
Regards...
Omega
What do you use your camera for? Skype? Oh, wait, can't do that. Oh, how about Google talk? Nope, they killed that. Crappy photos? Check! Even worse video? Check! I'll stick to the camera on my phone, or the digital Rebel I carry almost all the time. Once again, everybody, including me, is comparing apples to oranges.
Milhouse, I agree with everything in that last post.
Milhouse
2007-09-06, 01:55
Milhouse, I agree with everything in that last post.
Nooooo......
I knew you were arguing for the sake of arguing!
:D
Milhouse
2007-09-06, 02:24
Was not!
Oh I've won, disregard this post. :D
Apple today announced their new internet tablet device. The iTouch
The simularities with the N800 beg the question as to which is better.
In many ways the N800 is already dead. As for the iPod Touch (the iTouch is a different device and not made by Apple), it will blow the N800 away with it's browsing and multimedia capabilities. The N800 will still have bluetooth and I/O over the Touch and thus be able to either access a phone or be a phone. Apple does not want anyone calling anyone on their Touch.
As for software, if Apple includes the Mac mail and calendar systems then goodbye Nokia.
In many ways the N800 is already dead. As for the iPod Touch (the iTouch is a different device and not made by Apple), it will blow the N800 away with it's browsing and multimedia capabilities. The N800 will still have bluetooth and I/O over the Touch and thus be able to either access a phone or be a phone. Apple does not want anyone calling anyone on their Touch.
As for software, if Apple includes the Mac mail and calendar systems then goodbye Nokia.
ROFL. Sorry, the hyperbole is tickling me. "Goodbye Nokia"... :rolleyes:
barry99705
2007-09-06, 03:27
In many ways the N800 is already dead. As for the iPod Touch (the iTouch is a different device and not made by Apple), it will blow the N800 away with it's browsing and multimedia capabilities. The N800 will still have bluetooth and I/O over the Touch and thus be able to either access a phone or be a phone. Apple does not want anyone calling anyone on their Touch.
As for software, if Apple includes the Mac mail and calendar systems then goodbye Nokia.
Well it already sync your contacts. If it's the same as what the iPod does now, it's the full contact info, not just name and email.
Apple may well be the VHS of this world, but we all know what happened to the superior Betamax product. People WANT Apple products. Ordinary people, not techy or geeks, are lusting after Apple products, whether they need them or not - they just want them. [...]
Strange, but true.. even I have to constantly fight the urge to buy a flashy iMac or Macbook, even though I have loads of computers which are much easier to work with for the things I do, compared to when I use my niece's Macbook - it's a hassle. Still want an Apple box though! t'was like that with the Apple IIe too.. at least at that time it _was_ probably the best computer out there and I liked using it.
must.. hold.. back..
It will never have VoIP...
How do you know this? Or are you just making a silly assumption?
sevenape
2007-09-06, 12:01
How do you know this? Or are you just making a silly assumption?
pretty sure it doesn't have a mic
thomasdawes
2007-09-06, 13:07
I am making a wild guess here, but apple dropping the price by 200 dollars of the iphone tells me they aren't meeting their goals of having 10 million units in circulation.
mobiledivide
2007-09-06, 13:45
I concur. The iphone was way overpriced and people are too used to having cheap or free phones. I live in NY where its easy to see what consumer electronics are hot from pure observation of the streets and the subway and you just don't see that many of them AT ALL compared to other smartphones and regular devices.
I am making a wild guess here, but apple dropping the price by 200 dollars of the iphone tells me they aren't meeting their goals of having 10 million units in circulation.
They haven't broken 1 million yet, nevermind 10.
trevarthan
2007-09-06, 15:13
Strange, but true.. even I have to constantly fight the urge to buy a flashy iMac or Macbook, even though I have loads of computers which are much easier to work with for the things I do, compared to when I use my niece's Macbook - it's a hassle. Still want an Apple box though! t'was like that with the Apple IIe too.. at least at that time it _was_ probably the best computer out there and I liked using it.
must.. hold.. back..
I'll second that, and I agree completely with milhouse too. I'll keep my n800, but that's only because I'm a programmer and I want SSH and linux on my mobile device. Hell, I might even buy an ipod Touch, but if I do I'll have to pry it from my wife's cold, dead fingers before I can get any play time on it. :)
The iPod touch is made for music... Why is it being compared to an Internet Tablet? They may be able to do some of the same things, but the goal of each device as a whole is completely different. Apple makes hardware and software for a specific purpose and it only works for what Jobs want it to work for. It will be excellent at what he want's it to do, though.
http://geekpenguin.blogspot.com/2007/09/ipod-touch.html
They haven't broken 1 million yet, nevermind 10.
The point's been made, but it's worth re-iterating: 1m devices was mentioned at the "Beat goes on" event; I'll wager a gazillion dollarpounds that that's oooh - 1, 2, 3? - orders of magnitude more than any Nokia Internet Tablets.
The iPod Touch and the N800 *do* compete for the same market segment (whether they compete for the same users is a different question). As do the iPhone and the N800; but at least with the iPod Touch we can ignore all those silly "but the N800's not a phone" arguments.
Both are marketed as "multimedia" devices (remember the "N"? That's (the marketing reason) why we don't get PIM.
Both have wifi.
Both have web browsers.
The iPod Touch is already better known.
The iPod Touch has a better, more integrated, well-thought out UI.
These are the majority of the feature items for this kind of consumer device. The lack of BT DUN/PAN on the iPod could register in some potential customers' minds.
Nokia are crap at marketing. Nokia are too busy trying to be all things to all people. Nokia have been too busy copying desktop metaphors.
Some of the decisions Nokia have taken are necessity due to having to re-UI massive amounts of open source code to fit their "brand"; others are of their own making; some are seemingly impossible for anyone but Apple to achieve.
Suffice to say, if it had a couple more built-in apps, and - most importantly - Bluetooth for headphones & keyboard; I'd seriously consider switching to a Touch.
...and that hurts, because the N800 has the *potential* to be so much more, I such can't see how we're going to get from here to there.
Milhouse
2007-09-09, 02:04
+1 aflegg
Like it or not, love the N800 or not, agree whether the Touch and N800 compete or not, the Apple iPod Touch is what Nokia need to aspire to in terms of usability, quality and appeal in order to reach the mass consumer.
The internet browser focus of the NIT is no longer a differentiating factor - Apple have just relegated the browser to the "me too" department where every connected device will now be expected to come with browser functionality. Nokia Internet Tablets are no longer special or unique - the Archos and other video players now have web browsers, along with of course the Nintendo DS, Sony PSP etc.
Nokia need to focus on the other areas not (currently) covered by Apple - PIM (move on from the "Internet Tablets don't do PIM" mantra - Apple just moved the goalposts), e-mail (a standing joke and untouched since the original IT OS release), RSS reader (more unintentional laughs, and well past it's sell by date), media player (usable but somewhat unintuitive and very plain/uninspired), VoIP (so many disparate efforts, although the choice is a good thing) while ensuring the overall UI used by *ALL* applications is consistent and *damned* "sexy".
Take a leaf out of Palms book, get the NIT working as a mobile phone companion syncing contacts, calendars and email etc., take a look at Canola/Kagu/UKMP for ideas on how the media player can be radically improved, replace the e-mail and RSS clients with something worthy of the device - the current implementations are CRAP. Jazz up the UI - get some 3D/OpenGL support going, the hardware is in the device - use it.
+1 Milhouse.
Well said, I think those are relevant points for the good of NIT.
I don't think that Nokia needs to aspire to the traits of the Touch, or the iPhone. The N800 has them both beat in many areas. That includes the Internet browsing experience, so I'm surprised to see you state that the Apple experience is superior (by all acounts it isn't). So a lot of devices have browsers... it's browser capability that will set them apart, not mere presence of a browser. Oh, and as for Canola-- who do you guys think is behind its development?
What really needs to happen, and I know you've said it many times Milhouse, is that Nokia the company needs to figure out what it wants to do with the product line and Get On It! I have to believe that's going to happen soon enough...
The iPod Touch and the N800 *do* compete for the same market segment (whether they compete for the same users is a different question). As do the iPhone and the N800
No, no, no they don't. Overlapping segments, yes. Same segments, no. The core usage is just too diverse. Again: the common aspects are not what lead people to select one device over another. The distinguising aspects are.
My phone has a digital camera, too, but that's not the main reason I selected it. I picked it to make phone calls. I bought a nice stand-alone digital camera for good shots. I only use the phone camera for occasional convenient shots, not quality ones. The same situation applies to the Touch and the N800 or the iPhone and the N800. I'm not going to buy an N800 to take jogging, and I'm sure not gonna read eBooks on a Touch.
Milhouse
2007-09-09, 07:01
Tex - I agree the N800 still has the other devices beat in some areas, but what I said is that Nokia should aspire to the "usability, quality and appeal" of the Touch. Without doubt Nokia are behind in these areas on NITs.
As for the browser, it's simply no longer the defining factor of any product. Last week, would someone who wanted a mobile internet browsing experience have even considered an iPod? One week later, an iPod will be top of their list.
Yet the N800 is an internet browsing tablet - so what, most people haven't heard of the N800, and won't do the research to find out how much better the N800 is than the iPod Touch (which may or may not be the case - I suspect the Touch and iPhone browsing experience will be more than "good enough" for most people).
Having an internet browser is just another tick in the box nowadays, the Touch has that covered as do many other devices - quality of browsing is actually a secondary consideration (at best) for many people. Consider how many people were impressed by the PSP browser when it first appeared - there were lots, but they simply didn't know any better. People will stop listening after they read that a device has an internet browser, they won't understand the nuances such as high resolution display, standards compliance etc. - not even latest version of Flash in some cases - but they will go "WOW!" when they see Steve Jobs on stage smoothly zooming into a page by squeezing his fingers (or whatever gesture it is!)
And yes, Canola is a Nokia inspired side project, but it's one interface on top of another, with no consistency throughout the entire device. This is where Nokia need to step it up, design a great UI so that Canola doesn't look so out of place, and the good ideas in Canola can be used throughout the device and not just on an application by application basis. The fact that Canola exists as a Nokia project, and the dull as ditch water Media Player exists as standard in the firmware suggests that Nokia don't know what to do - snazzy or dull? Let's go with dull every time - at least it's consistent.
Sorry for the ramble, but functionality is moving on, the landscape is changing and Nokia will be left behind if they stick to their "internet tablets are for web browsing only" stance. Everyone's doing that nowadays, it's old hat.
I think we're all agreed though, Nokia needs to do more, and fast. :)
I think we're all agreed though, Nokia needs to do more, and fast. :)
Translation: Kick 'em in the jimmy!
Tex - I agree the N800 still has the other devices beat in some areas, but what I said is that Nokia should aspire to the "usability, quality and appeal" of the Touch. Without doubt Nokia are behind in these areas on NITs.
Again: the data is not in on the quality of iPod Touch, and iPhones have had numerous quality issues reported.
Despite what appearances this forum may provide, quality really has not been bad on the N800. And appeal is subjective. The N800 appeals to me; iPod Touch does not.
As for usability, the N800 is o-p-e-n and getting more and more so. What you cite as a weakness (Canola looking out of place, etc) *could* be turned into a strength with the right focus. So no hardware limitation there.
Unfortunately that's all I can say on the subject (*awaits wrath from a few members*).
: X
I don't think that Nokia needs to aspire to the traits of the Touch, or the iPhone. The N800 has them both beat in many areas.
To clarify (and I'm really not certain), are you saying there's nothing Nokia/the NITs[1] can learn from Apple/the iPod Touch? Except, perhaps, the hype you keep mentioning?
They've got *something* because they can consistently turn hype into sales. The iPod line revamp makes the *news* for chrissakes!
That includes the Internet browsing experience, so I'm surprised to see you state that the Apple experience is superior (by all acounts it isn't). So a lot of devices have browsers... it's browser capability that will set them apart, not mere presence of a browser.
I'm beginning to suspect that the NITs are just incapable of providing a really good browser experience. The Apple devices seem to make more of an effort, but without trying one I can't really compare.
We've got desktop browsers shoved in a physically small space, with zoom (desktop browsers have that) and "Optimised view".
The iP{od,hone} have those and more, as well as a better/more slick UI for driving them.
For example, the other night I was sat in bed, connected to our wifi looking for a new gadget bag (http://www.tumi.com/products/index.cfm?fuseaction=image&ModelID=87480&bb_id=&Sku=87480&view=Exlrg&sub_site_ID=0&TMI_SD_Link=DetailShot) - a task for which the N800 is supposed to be perfect. But the UI is slow and clunky, links always open in front meaning that I can't even let the slow UI render these complex shopping pages in the background whilst continuing to look through (say) Google results.
Then copy & paste stopped working, and the browser crashed... I just gave up and went and used my wife's laptop instead.
Oh, and as for Canola-- who do you guys think is behind its development?
INDt. And we've been regularly told that they're nothing to do with Nokia, except sponsorship. So you can't take the credit now ;-)
What really needs to happen, and I know you've said it many times Milhouse, is that Nokia the company needs to figure out what it wants to do with the product line and Get On It! I have to believe that's going to happen soon enough...
The cynic in me says that's hope over experience. Yes, the Nokia Internet Tablet team are very dedicated and passionate, and have invoked the passions of a few thousand users; however there doesn't seem to be any real corporate support (apart from the fact they still have jobs), and there's no joined up thinking across the company.
That's not the case with Apple: they *appear* to act as one company, not lots of little fiefdoms. I know how rare this is in a big company.
[Do they compete?] No, no, no they don't. Overlapping segments, yes. Same segments, no. The core usage is just too diverse. Again: the common aspects are not what lead people to select one device over another. The distinguising aspects are.
Yes, yes, yes they do! Actually, perhaps you're right. The iPod's have a much wider appeal - I was being generous to the N800 ;-)
However, both devices are multimedia devices aimed at people with disposable income to spend on toys.
My phone has a digital camera, too, but that's not the main reason I selected it. I picked it to make phone calls. I bought a nice stand-alone digital camera for good shots. I only use the phone camera for occasional convenient shots, not quality ones. The same situation applies to the Touch and the N800 or the iPhone and the N800. I'm not going to buy an N800 to take jogging, and I'm sure not gonna read eBooks on a Touch.
It's a broken analogy, unfortunately. In the UK at least lots of people are buying phones for their camera, for example the Sony Ericsson K800i is one of the most popular phones, and *is* the primary camera for many of its owners.
Now, I'm like you, I like a proper camera, but that's the minority now. And pandering to a minority only works if you have an excellent all-round experience. The N800 may be "good" or "OK" in a lot of categories, but only some bits of the hardware (mainly the screen) could be called "excellent".
Hardware rarely sells, though, it's what you can do with a device which makes a sale - i.e. software.
Cheers,
Andrew
[1] that's not an adjective on Nokia ;-)
I think we're all agreed though, Nokia needs to do more, and fast. :)
This is a great thread, I've been building up to sharing the opinions expressed here by Milhouse and Aflegg for a couple of weeks now.
I have no doubt that the iPod Touch and the N800 are competing directly, consumers have expectations of portable media: we've gone through the Walkman age to the iPod which went on to add photos, videos, some simple games and now the web browser. The N800 and the iPod Touch can both tick those boxes.
Usability is the key to the experience and Apple excels. Nokia is nowhere near the state of the art. Apple wasn't always so slick though, I bought a 1st generation iPod and it sat in its box for quite some time until iTunes was released for Windows. The MusicMatch software shipped for the early Windows users was woeful to use.
Nokia still has an opportunity, the N800 certainly offers more capabilities than the iPod platform but Nokia's got to throw some weight behind the better applications being developed in the community model. The applications developed with commercial resources and the expectation of commercial return through the service they provide, e.g. Skype and Gizmo Phone, are of the required quality and of the community contributed applications I like Quiver and Evince. The media player offerings are a mess though, maybe the promised Canola revision will hit the mark there.
Having mentioned Skype and Gizmo I have to agree with the statement that the N800 isn't a phone, even with these apps it's not, WiFi simply isn't a common & ubiquitous resource (anyone in the UK remember Rabbit?).
Whatever's going to happen has to happen soon. Today, if I was walking up 5th Avenue, NYC, I wouldn't be turning down E 57th St to the Nokia flagship store as I did back in April to buy my N800. I'd be heading on up to the Apple store for an iPod Touch. I don't think I'd be unique in that choice.
The bar has been set now for the consumer, the personal media device has to have a web browser. Soon, it'll be understood that has to do YouTube, all the Google services, etc. I don't know where the iPod Touch/iPhone's Safari functionality sits with that but the N800 offerings don't adequately meet those requirements yet.
It noise around Apple isn't hype, it's consumer expectation, they do deliver on the expectations but in doing so also carefully protect themselves. There's plenty of debate about lack of developer access to the iP[od/hone] but that policy simply protects the user experience. What vendor wants the hassle of their consumers tweaking their product with enthusiast derived hacks and then coming back to the shop when it's not working. Now there's a contentious paragraph.
My tuppence worth for the direction on N800:
•**get the media player experience sorted with one integrated app (maybe Ovi will do something special for the N800);
•**get the web browser sorted with the Gecko engine
•**get J2ME onto the platform - there's alignment with Google in that & that's valuable
Finally, I am a "techie" (been in the IT industry for 25 years) but I'm a consumer too and, these days, I just want stuff to work. That's not too much to ask.
Hey Milhouse... given the choice between Canola and Media Player, I take Media Player each and every time. I don't like apps that think they own the device and only run fullscreen. I also don't like the waste of resources for flashy crap that's not useful in the slightest and gets in the way. Guess what company's stuff I won't be buying? (I used to be one of those Apple drones years ago - when they actually made good stuff.)
Something I just thought of. iPods are pretty much the only way Apple's stayed afloat over the last few years so a good amount of resources from Apple were behind the development of them. It's their bread and butter. Nokia's bread and butter are phones. The internet tablet project is more or less a small project within the company, not a huge major release that's a make or break prospect for the company. So I think it makes sense that Nokia's not on the same level as Apple in terms of support and development (though I would love to see it).
Milhouse
2007-09-09, 20:25
Hey Milhouse... given the choice between Canola and Media Player, I take Media Player each and every time. I don't like apps that think they own the device and only run fullscreen. I also don't like the waste of resources for flashy crap that's not useful in the slightest and gets in the way. Guess what company's stuff I won't be buying? (I used to be one of those Apple drones years ago - when they actually made good stuff.)
Fair enough, I personally can't stand the new media player and it's god awful library that has to be navigated using the bread crumb links at the top and the repeated failure to fix bugs - I actually preferred the original media player! My point is that a better looking/glitzy UI for the media player would help sales among the casual consumer, and I guess a simplified UI (third party?) media player could be installed for power users such as yourself. :)
Milhouse and Aflegg have hit all the nails on the heads here.
Nokia had the chance to be first on something, and now will be seen as follwing in the mainstream, there's no doubt about it.
I've never understood the lack of push on the NITs, I am constantly surprised that no-one i know has heard of them!
The "usability" thing is a very big deal too - it's absolutely shameful that the email app is still as bad as the roll-out of the 770, and if Nokia are now claiming Canola as an in-house, why is it taking so long to get the new updated version out?
But the thing that really, really bugs me about the 800 is the camera. Going back to Apple, one thing the Ives revolution there did was to focus on the practical merged with the desibable in design terms. And so we have the 770 slip on metal case - a brilliant design. Like many others I couldn't believe the 800 had ditched it, but came to the conclusion it was because of the camera - maybe for access reasons, maybe because of the bulge at the top that houses the camera.
BUT, the thing is still useless! it's not good enough to use AS a camera, and its obvious use as a video camera is still not utilised (even worse, it did work as this purpose with the beta video call app, if you were lucky).
So I have a camera that has undoubtedly influenced design but is, at the moment, some eight months in, totally useless.
To clarify (and I'm really not certain), are you saying there's nothing Nokia/the NITs[1] can learn from Apple/the iPod Touch? Except, perhaps, the hype you keep mentioning?
Disingenuous question, Andrew. I've acknowledged NUMEROUS times that Nokia can learn many things from Apple. You are adding things to my statement that I neither stated nor implied. My comments were specific to Milhouse's question.
They've got *something* because they can consistently turn hype into sales. The iPod line revamp makes the *news* for chrissakes!
Agreed. See response above. I am not disavowing Apple's success at all. None of my comments are meant to impugn Apple!
I'm beginning to suspect that the NITs are just incapable of providing a really good browser experience. The Apple devices seem to make more of an effort, but without trying one I can't really compare.
Wow. Funny because I'm seeing complaints from iPhone users about browsing. And with microb I don't quite see how you can make the statement above. :confused:
We've got desktop browsers shoved in a physically small space, with zoom (desktop browsers have that) and "Optimised view".
The iP{od,hone} have those and more, as well as a better/more slick UI for driving them.
BUT a smaller screen, which means more scrolling/panning, hence the complaints from some users. I think the N800 has the right sized screen and right resolution. Also, why was Flash 9 so important to tablet users but suddenly a nonstarter for the Apple products? Please. :rolleyes:
For example, the other night I was sat in bed, connected to our wifi looking for a new gadget bag (http://www.tumi.com/products/index.cfm?fuseaction=image&ModelID=87480&bb_id=&Sku=87480&view=Exlrg&sub_site_ID=0&TMI_SD_Link=DetailShot) - a task for which the N800 is supposed to be perfect. But the UI is slow and clunky, links always open in front meaning that I can't even let the slow UI render these complex shopping pages in the background whilst continuing to look through (say) Google results.
Then copy & paste stopped working, and the browser crashed... I just gave up and went and used my wife's laptop instead.
UI is fast enough for me, and I very rarely experience what you describe. I have more problems on my supposedly mature Windows PCs than I do on the N800.
INDt. And we've been regularly told that they're nothing to do with Nokia, except sponsorship. So you can't take the credit now ;-)
Try again. The relationship is closer than you are acknowledging. I think maybe you misunderstood the disclaimers.
And one thing that is seen as just a little amusing is the fact that many maemo folks participate in general linux development, but this is almost totally glossed over in the rush to condemn them for issues with tablet software. I would think most of the professionals here would understand that there are other factors that contribute to software inadequacies than the common kneejerk assumptions (I have to cease commenting at this point).
The cynic in me says that's hope over experience. Yes, the Nokia Internet Tablet team are very dedicated and passionate, and have invoked the passions of a few thousand users; however there doesn't seem to be any real corporate support (apart from the fact they still have jobs), and there's no joined up thinking across the company.
That's not the case with Apple: they *appear* to act as one company, not lots of little fiefdoms. I know how rare this is in a big company.
Apple is more focused because they can be-- so far. What happens when Apple tries to expand as far and deep as Nokia has? Guess what: same problems emerge. Apple can appear "perfect" because they haven't gotten into anywhere near the risk Nokia has. Apple is immune to some issues because it hasn't embraced open source with the iPhone and Touch-- an EXTREMELY important fact that many here are glossing over.
And you are forgetting other key points, which have all been addressed so no reason to belabor them-- but Nokia's willingness to adjust as this NEW product model matures is definitely key.
It's a broken analogy, unfortunately. In the UK at least lots of people are buying phones for their camera, for example the Sony Ericsson K800i is one of the most popular phones, and *is* the primary camera for many of its owners.
Now, I'm like you, I like a proper camera, but that's the minority now. And pandering to a minority only works if you have an excellent all-round experience. The N800 may be "good" or "OK" in a lot of categories, but only some bits of the hardware (mainly the screen) could be called "excellent".
Hardware rarely sells, though, it's what you can do with a device which makes a sale - i.e. software.
Is that really a minority? Got any stats? I'd seriously like to see them out of general interest.
For the record: I have always been honest about Nokia's missteps with the tablets, and no one is more disgusted than I am with the state of advertising and sales channels. But I have to leave most of my feelings there unspoken, and I really wish you guys would understand that and show some consideration for it. I simply canNOT say everything I would like to. So it will look like I'm simply parroting the corporate line when I'm really trying to balance the arguments as best I can given the circumstances. I just have to bite my lip at certain points.
But there's way too much "apples and oranges" type 'comparisons' made in this debate, too much muddying of the waters, too much hyperbole, too many logical fallacies employed in the gushing praise of the Apple products. Yes, to a degree it's warranted but these things are not gold-plated, folks. At the end of the day they're just well-designed devices supported by a fairly narrow-focused company with very few SKUs (many of you completely ignore that part) that has cultivated a loud and loyal collection of consumers and mastered the magic of hype. Nokia is a far more conservative company that is willing to operate via punctuated equilibrium and for the most part has been successful at it. The stock I bought at $15 is now around $34 so I can't complain too much... ;)
Finally, no one is giving credit to Nokia for the recent reorganization. You all act like the mistakes of yesterday will never be corrected but that's naive. A large part of the reorg was due to the need to address previous missteps and misalignments. If nothing comes of it after a year or too, then feel free to say "I told you so". Until then, we're going to do our damndest to address real concerns.
More to come. Except that I think I've said all I need to on this topic. ;)
have no doubt that the iPod Touch and the N800 are competing directly,
Quotes like that blow my mind.
No they're not.
Hey Milhouse... given the choice between Canola and Media Player, I take Media Player each and every time. I don't like apps that think they own the device and only run fullscreen. I also don't like the waste of resources for flashy crap that's not useful in the slightest and gets in the way. Guess what company's stuff I won't be buying? (I used to be one of those Apple drones years ago - when they actually made good stuff.)
Something I just thought of. iPods are pretty much the only way Apple's stayed afloat over the last few years so a good amount of resources from Apple were behind the development of them. It's their bread and butter. Nokia's bread and butter are phones. The internet tablet project is more or less a small project within the company, not a huge major release that's a make or break prospect for the company. So I think it makes sense that Nokia's not on the same level as Apple in terms of support and development (though I would love to see it).
...but quotes like that make my day.
Zerojay Gets It. Thank God. :D
Yes, if only there were millions of zerojay's in the world, the NIT would be an unabashed success on the scale of the iPhone, the iPod and (I'm willing to wager) the iPod Touch ;-)
And on the re-org point, I don't give anyone points for re-organising. They get points for results... when we see them, not before.
Yes, if only there were millions of zerojay's in the world, the NIT would be an unabashed success on the scale of the iPhone, the iPod and (I'm willing to wager) the iPod Touch ;-)
If there were millions of me, we probably would have reverted back to the stone ages by now. ;/
Remember AppleTV? No? Can't say I blame you. Hype hype hype hype HYPE HYPE HYPE HYPE... disappointment, disappointment... no sales... dead.
Yes, if only there were millions of zerojay's in the world, the NIT would be an unabashed success on the scale of the iPhone, the iPod and (I'm willing to wager) the iPod Touch ;-)
And on the re-org point, I don't give anyone points for re-organising. They get points for results... when we see them, not before.
The points would be for the recognition that there was misalignment and hence a fix.
And I'll zerojay's unabashed honesty over gushing product worship any day. :p
barry99705
2007-09-10, 17:17
If there were millions of me, we probably would have reverted back to the stone ages by now. ;/
Remember AppleTV? No? Can't say I blame you. Hype hype hype hype HYPE HYPE HYPE HYPE... disappointment, disappointment... no sales... dead.
Heh, everybody I know has one.
Milhouse
2007-09-10, 17:56
The problem with Apple TV is that downloadable content is limited and it uses Apple-preferred video codecs and is heavily dependent on iTunes. TV/Film content is extremely lacking in many regions, and even where there is a selection it's still pretty limited. Unlike with music, video download services are still quite immature/limited and until Apple supports a wider variety of codecs natively (I believe more codecs can be added using various hacks) I don't think the Apple TV will appeal to a wide cross section of the buying public. I want High Def support, DivX/XviD, ISO/VOB and UPnP support - something like the PixelMagic (http://www.avreview.co.uk/news/article/mps/UAN/727/v/1/sp/) would suit me down to the ground. The lack of iTunes/downloadable support isn't an issue as iTunes UK only offers trailers and some American content such as Sponge Bob Square Pants, South Park and a few British shows for almost £2 a throw - no thanks!
This problems with the Apple TV are being caused largely by the lack of content and Apples desire to lock you into their platform.
Look, the N800 easily beats the touch in so many ways:
a much better browser with javascript and flash 9
2 full size SD cards
skype
MUCH higher resolution screen-browsing on the touch is nowhere near the N800
a usable touch keyboard
In my open, the touch isn't the gorilla in the room. The gorilla is the vga screen pocket pc (windows mobile 6 professional), GPS (sirf III), GPRS/edge/umts/hsdpa, 15.8 mm thick Glofiish X800.
I'm I'm seriously thinking about trading in my N800 for one. I started a thread about this (do a forum search for glofiish with 2 i's).seriously thinking about trading in my N800 for one. I started a thread about this.out this.out this.
There's some irony in that ^ post... ;)
Greyghost
2007-09-10, 18:33
...but quotes like that make my day.
Zerojay Gets It. Thank God. :D
O xlnt! This REALLY hits the point! Indeed, Apple is *depending* on the iphony and itouchy for survival in the current business climate, and is thus defensive (closed source), while Nokia is *using* the N800 to adapt to the current and *emerging* market, so this whole effort is an offensive strategy and, logically enough, open source.
I am *still* very excited about my N800 and even more so about what it represents. I hope (actually given the above, I believe) that the Nokia N-management team (not just the N800) does not take this whole damn iphony/n8oo comparison seriously enough to distract them from the goal of providing better products and the platform for open source developers to provide software for those products.
My experienceso far has been remarkable. So far I've seen a steady stream of new software and updates, including the update to the firmware that really was an improvement! So, iphony boys and girls, go get you one and sign out, please:p
Heh, everybody I know has one.
You must live in a very rich neighborhood then. I've never met a single person that's bought one, even the Apple freaks here in the office won't touch it.
The problem with Apple TV is that downloadable content is limited and it uses Apple-preferred video codecs and is heavily dependent on iTunes. TV/Film content is extremely lacking in many regions, and even where there is a selection it's still pretty limited. Unlike with music, video download services are still quite immature/limited and until Apple supports a wider variety of codecs natively (I believe more codecs can be added using various hacks) I don't think the Apple TV will appeal to a wide cross section of the buying public. I want High Def support, DivX/XviD, ISO/VOB and UPnP support - something like the PixelMagic (http://www.avreview.co.uk/news/article/mps/UAN/727/v/1/sp/) would suit me down to the ground. The lack of iTunes/downloadable support isn't an issue as iTunes UK only offers trailers and some American content such as Sponge Bob Square Pants, South Park and a few British shows for almost £2 a throw - no thanks!
This problems with the Apple TV are being caused largely by the lack of content and Apples desire to lock you into their platform.
Apple wanting to lock you into their platform is enough of a reason to stay away.
In the meantime, I've got two Xboxes with the Xbox Media Center streaming 3.5TB of stuff with just about every codec under the sun and able to do so much more.
Open Source +1
Milhouse
2007-09-10, 18:44
There is some irony in the way Apple TV is (not) progressing, but it still doesn't change the fact that Apple fully understand their iPod market and have it well under control. Which is more than can be said for Nokia with Internet Tablets.
:)
Edit: Fixup the vbcode...
There's multiple instances of irony in your post, Mil. I was referring to the closed nature of the service.
On a more sober note, it continues to be silly for anyone to draw direct comparisons between iPods and the larger, broader-purposed tablets. Even sillier to (as some have done) compare iPods and Nokia's highly (globally) successful phones.
Apple deserves their due, no doubt. But that doesn't alter the fact that the recent gushing over their highly-controlled, low-SKU, mostly-closed product line is fine within certain contexts but absolutely ludicrous when used to compare iPods/iPhones one-to-one against the offerings of Nokia (or Samsung, or Sony-Ericsson, or Motorola, or LG...) at the present. Apple's approach to the entertainment and communications market are so narrowly-defined, so unique that in order to distill offerings down into the soundbite comparisons made here the past few days one must willfully blind one's self to the myriad critical differences between not only the products involved but also between Apple's and Nokia's present business models. Now, those models are definitely changing and moving closer toward each other to be sure, but the glorious Apple outcomes being spouted as fact are actually prognostications nonetheless, giddy predictions borne more of bandwagon enthusiasm than history and current fact.
It's great that Apple has successfully carved such a niche, and has the *potential* to significantly expand that business, but let's withdraw from the nitrous oxide clouds for a second and get reacquainted with reality. Apple's consistent ability to SUSTAIN recent advents is still unproven (Newton, anyone? Appletalk?), and Nokia isn't going to just wither away simply because a new iPod model came out. Seriously. Waiter-- reality check, please!
:p
You must live in a very rich neighborhood then. I've never met a single person that's bought one, even the Apple freaks here in the office won't touch it.
I live in an uber-rich neighborhood and I've yet to see anyone in all of Kansas City with an iPhone.
Even at all the "trendy" bars/clubs, never saw a one.
Of course, that was before the price drop, so it might "catch on".
I'm laughing at Apple right now for disabling the ability to add calendar info on the Touch itself. It can only display entires, no adds allowed.
And I'm REALLY laughing at all the so-called "business people" with an iPhone in the comments sections on certain blogs babbling on and on how important "business" is for them.
They haven't figured out yet that they bought the wrong phone.
O Crackberry, how soon we have forgotten thee!
O Crackberry, how soon we have forgotten thee!
If it wasn't for the U.S. Government and their TONS of Crackberry purchases, RIM wouldn't be doing as well as they have been.
Did you know that the RIM Crackberry is the ONLY handheld email device approved by the DoD for use with PKI encryption/decryption smartcards?
Literally, thousands and thousands of smartcard sleds (both bluetooth and attached) and Crackberries have been sold to the Army alone.
Sigh. If only Nokia would come up with a solution like that...I'd rather have an E61i than a Crackberry. It would also remove the dependancy on RIm's Crackberry for Exchange server requirement within an organization.
barry99705
2007-09-10, 20:08
You must live in a very rich neighborhood then. I've never met a single person that's bought one, even the Apple freaks here in the office won't touch it.
I wouldn't call it a rich neighborhood. We do have a pretty big mac following around here though. Our schools are about 95% macs. The rest is linux and windows, in that order. Pretty much all my friends are computer geeks though, so that might have something to do with it.
The new iPod screen is a half inch smaller. For screens this small, that is a critical fault for browsing and reading web pages, which is the reason why I bought my N800. If anything, I would have wanted a larger screen, say 6", instead of the 4" on my tablet. If they can get one of these E-readers, with a capacious screen, to have a good Wi-Fi capability, then I might think my N800 is behind the curve. As it is, it has a superb browser, good reception, and it rests on one of the best SW platforms. You can't do better than this anywhere- it's a superb device and i recommend it to anyone who must have Web connectivity.
The preceeding was an unpaid endorsement and does not reflect the propaganda of Nokia, Inc. Use as probited. Void where directed. Not applicable in Cupertino, Miami and the state of Alaska. No one is responsible for abuse of content.
The following picture has confirmed for me that Nokia is doomed.
http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2007/0708/nokia_0831.jpg
Why the phuck does OPK need not one giant lapel microphone but TWO?
No one figured out how to split the single source into multiple outputs on the BACK-END and not on the person himself?
Think about it....if they can't get these small, tiny-yet-in-front-of-the-world details right how the hell can they get the really complex stff right?
Don't you know real-time multiplexing when you see it?
:p
Redundancy is a good thing... especially if one fails in mid-presentation.
Yes, redundancy is a good thing.
Don't you know real-time multiplexing when you see it?
:p
Obviously OPK doesn't.
Redundancy is a good thing... especially if one fails in mid-presentation.
Odd, I've never seen Steve Jobs using that particular kluge.
Maybe it wouldn't have been so bad had the microphones not been bigger than his damn nose and look oddly placed.
Perhaps next time he should wear a black shirt or tie.
Or a black mock turtleneck. ;)
Maybe OPK has been taking tips from these guys:
Although the iBook demo went flawlessly, Apple’s software demos did not. Vice President Phil Schiller started off his QuickTime demo by gushing over how well-received the new QuickTime Player was. Apparently, he did not read the criticisms of its horrendous interface in this column or the iArchitect Web site. Or maybe he lives in a reality distortion field. In any case, there’s no denying that Schiller was having trouble with the QuickTime Player’s interface. He always wanted to maximize the window size for playing a movie. Then, he needed to open the favorites drawer to select the next movie, however this required resizing and moving the window so that there would be room to open the drawer. What a great example of user interface chunkiness. When Mac OS 9 arrives in October, we’ll find the QuickTime interface plastered onto Sherlock II, which despite his saying so, apparently does not support natural language queries to Web sites. Other than that, however, it looks pretty darned cool.
Another interface gaffe happened when Jobs was doing a demo with Internet Explorer. He closed the browser window and then could not figure out how to make a new one. Like most beginning Mac users, he seemed to think that he had quit Internet Explorer, so he went to the Finder and reopened it. Since IE 4.5 does not support the reopen AppleEvent, this just switched back to IE without opening a new window. Some members of the audience shouted helpful suggestions, but Jobs apparently wasn’t listening. Sure, many people get confused by this behavior, but I never expected the iCEO to be one of them.
http://www.atpm.com/5.08/paradigm.shtml
heh. The emperor has no clothes! :p
Maybe OPK has been taking tips from these guys:
http://www.atpm.com/5.08/paradigm.shtml
heh. The emperor has no clothes! :p
You do know this was YEARS ago? At least try to cite some more recent events.
Have you seen a major gaffe at an Apple event in the past two years?
And by major I mean "showstopping". Like the ones good ol' Bill G used to do.
If Nokia's going to start competing with Apple in the music download services category then they need to up their presentation game. Hard.
Grab one guy who isn't afraid to speak in front of crowds and has "presence" and make that yahoo the new face of Nokia. Keep your CEOs, CFOs, VPs, etc. all behind the curtain otherwise they're going to start making Sony-style off-the-cuff-comment mistakes and pissing off potential customers.
I've already seen where Nokia has started pissing off potential customers at the recent London launch event where the music guy was telling AAS that since everyone uses Windows that their music store will ONLY work with Internet Explorer. Hello? WTF? Someone isn't up to snuff on the internet browsers used today. Firefox has a damn nice share now, with Safari/Camino on the Mac right behind it and then there's all those Opera (as in "Opera on Nokia phones") clients out there.
What a phucktard. He needs a jimmy-kick too.
I swear I should start selling "Nokia needs a kick in the jimmy" t-shirts.
Actually it's relevant for a couple of reasons:
1) the implicit allegations of Apple infallibility strewn throughout the iPod/iPhone dialogs;
2) with regards to common business aspects, Nokia is now where Apple was then. So surely we can expect the same sort of gaffes. ;)
Plus I thought it was just ironically funny. :p
Seriously, though-- doesn't it show that companies can learn?
Actually it's relevant for a couple of reasons:
1) the implicit allegations of Apple infallibility strewn throughout the iPod/iPhone dialogs;
2) with regards to common business aspects, Nokia is now where Apple was then. So surely we can expect the same sort of gaffes. ;)
Plus I thought it was just ironically funny. :p
Seriously, though-- doesn't it show that companies can learn?
Learn what? How to put the most internet-clueless person in charge of their brand new music store?
They've got that move down to a art form.
I love Nokia phones and some of their other devices but I'll never be buying any music from them since I'm on a Macbook Pro and use Camino(Firefox) and Safari.
Sad considering that most Nokia phones sync up with Macs easier and without having to install any software when compared to Windows XP/Vista.
Eh, everyone's a critic.
I have to be optimistic. If certain gambles fail, I'm out a really nice job and sucking your tax dollars away for as I long as I can. You don't want THAT, do you???
Eh, everyone's a critic.
I have to be optimistic. If certain gambles fail, I'm out a really nice job and sucking your tax dollars away for as I long as I can. You don't want THAT, do you???
Why not, the welfare kings and queens popping out a new kid every 9 months to increase their "dole" are doing it.
Besides, I spend a schitt-ton of taxpayer dollars (think "millions") on new projects every year.
And oddly enough, when I travel to war zones I'm the only one there that STILL has to pay taxes.
Everyone else doesn't.
So, by all means kick Nokia in the jimmy and get in line at the unemployment office.
" Originally Posted by another poster
I have no doubt that the iPod Touch and the N800 are competing directly, "
Quotes like that blow my mind.
No they're not.
Oh please, just read the respective websites:
www.apple.com/ipodtouch:
Music, videos, photos and websites....
www.nokia.com/N800:
Easy access to web
Wi-fi connectivity
Internet Calling with web camera
Enjoy music and video
Instant messaging & email
Ignoring the Internet calling, both lists amount to the same thing. IM & email are widely available as web apps so let's not split hairs on that point.
It's not a case of what any of us think they are, it's what the manufacturers are marketing the devices as.
I'll be honest, I'm a bit disappointed with my N800, it hasn't lived up to my expectations. Just about all the applications I really want it to do are flawed - no, hold on, the FM Radio's neat. However, I am prepared to hang in there and file the bug reports but Nokia should really step up to the mark to support the best of the community developments.
It's not a case of what any of us think they are, it's what the manufacturers are marketing the devices as.
Agreed. (although web-based chat apps tend to piss me off more than built-in...but Pidgen kills 'em all dead when it comes to the N800)
And so far Nokia has been screwing up big-time on the IT marketing front.
Hell, I'm still pissed with their Windows-only mindset, but they are trying to get Mac apps in there for their S60 devices though. No love for Linux either even though their Internet Tablet line is based on it.
But hey, now Apple's starting to feel the pressure as their entire iPod line now looks more segmented than ever, much like Nokia's product line looks now.
I'll be honest, I'm a bit disappointed with my N800, it hasn't lived up to my expectations. Just about all the applications I really want it to do are flawed - no, hold on, the FM Radio's neat. However, I am prepared to hang in there and file the bug reports but Nokia should really step up to the mark to support the best of the community developments.
Now THAT'S what Willis was talkin' 'bout!
Nokia should actually be rewarding those of us who take the time to file bug reports and play around with their beta software as well as their buggy/clumsy tablet applications. Some of you out there are a hell of a lot more active in submitting bug reports than most and those should be singled out for praise by Nokia itself with a free phone and/or next-gen tablet. That starts word-of-mouth campaign that all the PR money in the world can't buy.
I got some feedback on tablet marketing today, and although it wasn't *official*, I think it's a good indicator nonetheless of the corporate thinking.
I can't go into details, but suffice to say there was some logic to the motivation behind keeping the tablet hype low key (for now). But I get the feeling from the community that the prevailing fear is that lack of overt, large-scale marketing for the device equates to half-@$$ corporate support for the product line. That it's doomed to an nGage fate.
I have to confess I had the same fear for a while, but I've been given good reason to believe Nokia is in the tablet business for the long haul. What the company is hoping for is patience from the early adopters as certain elements are retooled.
So my optimism is rekindled a bit. BUT-- that doesn't mean there isn't room for immediate improvement. The good news is that lessons are being learned. That said, I don't think the tablets will be hyped in the exact same way as iPods and iPhones, and to a certain degree they shouldn't IMO. Nokia just needs to better define the target customer(s), get the message out, and follow through on promises quicker.
Oh please, just read the respective websites:
www.apple.com/ipodtouch:
Music, videos, photos and websites....
www.nokia.com/N800:
Easy access to web
Wi-fi connectivity
Internet Calling with web camera
Enjoy music and video
Instant messaging & email
Ignoring the Internet calling, both lists amount to the same thing. IM & email are widely available as web apps so let's not split hairs on that point.
It's not a case of what any of us think they are, it's what the manufacturers are marketing the devices as.
I'll be honest, I'm a bit disappointed with my N800, it hasn't lived up to my expectations. Just about all the applications I really want it to do are flawed - no, hold on, the FM Radio's neat. However, I am prepared to hang in there and file the bug reports but Nokia should really step up to the mark to support the best of the community developments.
You're still making the mistake of focusing on the similarities instead of the distinct features. Nokia is not marketing the N800 in the same vein as Apple markets the iPods and iPhone; a simple feature list doesn't make your point for you. Purpose-driven advertising would though. Hell, for all practical purposes Nokia isn't marketing the N800 at all! And it boils down to the fact that the N800 is closer to laptop territory, the iPod is firmly in media player territory and the iPhone is, well, first and foremost a phone.
I don't know how to disabuse you or anyone else of the flawed approach above. Some seem committed to it. So be it. Oh, and no need to point me toward Nokia's websites, but thanks. ;)
That said, there will come a time, and soon, when Nokia and Apple DO compete head to head in products and services. There will be no room to equivocate. Given Nokia's recent corporate redefinition, it's inevitable. But the tablets weren't the first salvo-- music-oriented phones and Ovi were.
And when the Nokia iPhone clone comes out next year, then I'll gladly cede the point. ;)
Milhouse
2007-09-12, 00:28
But hey, now Apple's starting to feel the pressure as their entire iPod line now looks more segmented than ever, much like Nokia's product line looks now.
I reckon the "Classic" iPods are living on borrowed time. Once Flash memory is available in larger capacities such as 64GB, which should be feasible within 12-24 months time, the mechanical hard drive iPods will be history. Apple had no choice but to maintain two iPod lines while it transitions from mechanical to solid state.
Nokia should actually be rewarding those of us who take the time to file bug reports and play around with their beta software as well as their buggy/clumsy tablet applications. Some of you out there are a hell of a lot more active in submitting bug reports than most and those should be singled out for praise by Nokia itself with a free phone and/or next-gen tablet. That starts word-of-mouth campaign that all the PR money in the world can't buy.
To be fair to Nokia, they did just that. It wasn't just developers that received discounted N800s, but also those who have been active in Bugzilla filing and commenting on bugs.
I reckon the "Classic" iPods are living on borrowed time. Once Flash memory is available in larger capacities such as 64GB, which should be feasible within 12-24 months time, the mechanical hard drive iPods will be history. Apple had no choice but to maintain two iPod lines while it transitions from mechanical to solid
I've seen analysts claim that Jobs wanted to kill the classic line outright but relented. I have no problem believing that. He wants to keep momentum moving toward each new paradigm shift and never look back.
I can't go into details, but suffice to say there was some logic to the motivation behind keeping the tablet hype low key (for now).
The realist (or cynic, delete as appropriate) says "yes, of course they're keeping it low so they don't get a massive consumer backlash".
But I think that's unfair, TBH.
I still maintain that the N800 is competing for the same users as the iPod Touch; within the margins of statistical error. The number of SSH-wielding techies who don't want the full power of a laptop isn't that great.
You can call me stupid and that statements like this "blow your mind", but the N800 isn't a high-end business-focused PDA (obviously something the iPod Touch can't do), it's a portable Internet-accessing multimedia device. Banging on about differences is pointless.
Going on about openness makes you sound like RMS saying Linus Torvalds is foolish for thinking "open source" is more importatn than "free software". I care about openness, but the mythical Aunt Tilly doesn't.
The realist (or cynic, delete as appropriate) says "yes, of course they're keeping it low so they don't get a massive consumer backlash".
But I think that's unfair, TBH.
I still maintain that the N800 is competing for the same users as the iPod Touch; within the margins of statistical error. The number of SSH-wielding techies who don't want the full power of a laptop isn't that great.
You can call me stupid and that statements like this "blow your mind", but the N800 isn't a high-end business-focused PDA (obviously something the iPod Touch can't do), it's a portable Internet-accessing multimedia device. Banging on about differences is pointless.
Going on about openness makes you sound like RMS saying Linus Torvalds is foolish for thinking "open source" is more importatn than "free software". I care about openness, but the mythical Aunt Tilly doesn't.
Ooo, I wish I could comment on statement #1. :D
I'm not going to call you stupid just for being mistaken, Andrew. That would be petty, and you're entitled to your perception. I think you just might be looking at the issue a little off-kilter and coming to the wrong conclusion. That's made evident to me in this statement: "it's a portable Internet-accessing multimedia device". IF the N800 could indeed be summed up in that simple remark, I'd agree with you 100%. But it can't, so I don't. It has a broader scope than that, a broader scope than the iPod Touch. The failure of a few people in this entanglement to grasp that is what's blowing my mind. Don't hone in on SSH alone to make your argument-- that's dangerously close to straw man erection. ;) There's more to the feature set and you know it.
And I really don't get the last comment. Even if the rank and file consumers don't care about the importance of the openness, it STILL remains a critical distinguishing factor, the importance of which will only continue to grow and increasingly differentiate the Nokia tablets from "close" competitors like iPods and iPhones. "Banging on about differences" isn't pointless-- it's the only rational part of the discussion!
Bottom line, the devices do indeed share a multitiude of features. But that does not ipso facto mean they share majority of purpose. The few distinguishing features have more value, carry more weight, than the many common ones which consumers will naturally expect under this vast umbrella.
My original post to this thread supported the comments by milhouse and aflegg but we all seem to be getting drawn into conflicting debate with texrat's firmly held opinions about where the IT is targetted and where it's going. His allusion to recent secret squirrel discussion that only he is party to will, I guess, have to be succour to the rest of us that we're not titanically, surfing our ITs toward a virtual iceberg.
I'm signing off, sometimes a lot of time listening is more fun than talking.
Must go see what this new, beta, veedeo app is gonna do for me and log some bugs! Wine, food and bed before the red eye to London await - I do so hate getting up in the middle of the night.
Note to self - don't look at the tech toys shop in the airport.
Sorry about that. I did admit that everyone has a right to their opinions. ;)
And to be bluntly honest, understanding of the important distinctions between the N800 and Apple's devices doesn't rely on any "secret squirrel" discussions. I threw those in as non sequiters more or less.
EDIT: any way, I'll self-censor on the subject. I can't think of any new ways to say "YOU'RE WRONG!!!"
:p
namtastic
2007-09-12, 22:43
I got some feedback on tablet marketing today, and although it wasn't *official*, I think it's a good indicator nonetheless of the corporate thinking.
I can't go into details, but suffice to say there was some logic to the motivation behind keeping the tablet hype low key (for now). But I get the feeling from the community that the prevailing fear is that lack of overt, large-scale marketing for the device equates to half-@$$ corporate support for the product line. That it's doomed to an nGage fate.
I have to confess I had the same fear for a while, but I've been given good reason to believe Nokia is in the tablet business for the long haul. What the company is hoping for is patience from the early adopters as certain elements are retooled.
So my optimism is rekindled a bit. BUT-- that doesn't mean there isn't room for immediate improvement. The good news is that lessons are being learned. That said, I don't think the tablets will be hyped in the exact same way as iPods and iPhones, and to a certain degree they shouldn't IMO. Nokia just needs to better define the target customer(s), get the message out, and follow through on promises quicker.
Thanks for sharing this.
Agreed, the N800 doesn't need to be successful at the levels of the iPods to still be a successful product for Nokia. It just needs to be successful in the volumes they want and with the people they want, and as far as *we* know they're surpassed their original expectations. Just as before, the problem is the lack of transparency in letting us know these things.
(I think for us Americans, in our hurry hurry trial-and-error culture, not beating the reigning champion product usually means the competitor is about to disappear for good -- since the ITs suffer constant comparisons with the iPods, there's a lot of anxiety as a result. I just don't know if those comparisons are avoidable these days, regardless of the marketing used.)
I think Nokia's had one hell of a hit with their paying-to-be-a-beta-tester N770/N800 internet tablet program.
thomasdawes
2007-09-12, 23:21
Reading through all these posts of the naysayers makes me feel like Nokia's a company in dire straits...
Last time I looked, nokia makes tons of products and they have quite a HUGE customer base. A lot of Nokia's customers aren't fanatical dimwits that drool when they see something white with a touchpad.
Nokia can afford to test out new markets. They have the financial background to release a product and bleed a little. I am not sure that Nokia lost anything releasing the N770 or N800, but if they did, they can absorb the hit.
Look at the Xbox 360 and the PS3, Microsoft and Sony are bleeding through the nose losing money with each system they sell (from what I heard through the internet, I have no data to back this claim up) but they have deep enough pocket to absorb it. I don't think either company will tank anytime soon.
Thanks for sharing this.
Agreed, the N800 doesn't need to be successful at the levels of the iPods to still be a successful product for Nokia. It just needs to be successful in the volumes they want and with the people they want, and as far as *we* know they're surpassed their original expectations. Just as before, the problem is the lack of transparency in letting us know these things.
(I think for us Americans, in our hurry hurry trial-and-error culture, not beating the reigning champion product usually means the competitor is about to disappear for good -- since the ITs suffer constant comparisons with the iPods, there's a lot of anxiety as a result. I just don't know if those comparisons are avoidable these days, regardless of the marketing used.)
Holy ****, I think I'm suffering a common sense overload.
<3
Well, I think Nokia has a pretty good strategy with the IT line. However, Nokia should really focus on improving the software (and hardware capabilities afterwards) it has control of more. I'm sure they've saved a good bit of money by having the open platform and no big marketing push (only online ads? wtf?!).
I really really really hope to see more from the 3rd Internet Tablet push. Don't get me wrong, I think the N800 evolution has been great, and if I knew back then what I know now, I would have purchased an N800 in a heartbeat. I'm most definitely going to get what comes next out of this bizarro science experiment gone right. :D
Between now and then though, I need something a little "different". Too late for the N800, too early for the NXXX. :rolleyes:
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