View Full Version : Open modlogs - for the real open community
Pulling this out from popcorn thread, as this idea is detested by popcorn companies who try to shut it down by excrementposting it out of sight., some good posts followed, was pretty bad.
Mod dramas are great, if you like popcorn. When did we have the last change on TMO that concerned transparency/openness? Did we all get it right the first time? If someone imagined the internet today in 1995 would he see an encyclopedia or the clickbait show of today?
Open mod logs are a necessity nowadays. Sure we have the same guys we trust, but why would they oppose change if the world around is changing and this is no longer usenet? Snowden, wikileaks, schneider all show us the internet is no longer innocent place to exchange ideas by academics. In the world of NK/Russian/US/Israeli/(enter your own country here) cyberwars that also include propaganda expecting 'hidden actions by those in power' to follow the unhidden constitution/ruleset is a bit naive. Nothing wrong in having clear and transparent view of the actions of those in power, they are human, if they err we can help them correct their mistakes. If they abuse it and act unlawfully, well.
It's a shame this forum is more stagnant than n900 was under nokia's captainship. Internet of 2008 vs internet of 2015 are quite different and expectations of people seem to also evolve faster than the old rules. Vote for more popcorn or less
And clarification, this is not about opening mod/admin emails and private messages, this is to reveal what and when was removed/edited/moved, so we can all call the lies out when they happen (just look here this part of your post was actually threatening people with death, criminal offense and this should've been removed, go cry somewhere else)
Pulling this out from popcorn thread, as this idea is detested by popcorn companies who try to shut it down by excrementposting it out of sight.
Mod dramas are great, if you like popcorn. When did we have the last change on TMO that concerned transparency/openness? Did we all get it right the first time? If someone imagined the internet today in 1995 would he see an encyclopedia or the clickbait show of today?
Open mod logs are a necessity nowadays. Sure we have the same guys we trust, but why would they oppose change if the world around is changing and this is no longer usenet? Snowden, wikileaks, schneider all show us the internet is no longer innocent place to exchange ideas by academics. In the world of NK/Russian/US/Israeli/(enter your own country here) cyberwars that also include propaganda expecting 'hidden actions by those in power' to follow the unhidden constitution/ruleset is a bit naive. Nothing wrong in having clear and transparent view of the actions of those in power, they are human, if they err we can help them correct their mistakes. If they abuse it and act unlawfully, well.
It's a shame this forum is more stagnant than n900 was under nokia's captainship. Internet of 2008 vs internet of 2015 are quite different and expectations of people seem to also evolve faster than the old rules. Vote for more popcorn or less
Though i think transparency is the future, i do think that some things should be left private, even though i found out that i was the topic of some discussions. After you can't please everyone and somethings would hijacked by dealing with who said what to whom, after all we are all human and we have some talking behind back and so on. The problem is if it changes the point view of moderator or not. And as it's not and keeps him still most objective as he can, i don't mind of some private "only staff" discussions.
Though i think transparency is the future, i do think that some things should be left private, even though i found out that i was the topic of some discussions. After you can't please everyone and somethings would hijacked by dealing with who said what to whom, after all we are all human and we have some talking behind back and so on. The problem is if it changes the point view of moderator or not. And as it's not and keeps him still most objective as he can, i don't mind of some private "only staff" discussions.
Not mod logs of private emails, mod logs of actions:
x post was deleted for reason y
z was deleted as spam
z was deleted as spam
z was deleted as spam
etc
(the amount of detail is to be discussed, mask the mod names to prevent witch hunts, sure, but also edits should include if they edited russia out of the post, or US, or spain, or finland...)
edit: also added clarification to the first post, this is not about opening inboxes, log of modifications to the forum posts
@szopin,
I find the suggestion generally good. I would even go as far as modifying the rules here so allow a more realistic and adult environment, where e.g. you can say f*ck. I don't see why the forum should be so patronizing.
As long as spam and other clearly off-topic content is removed (for all I care without a trace) the moderation should be limited to the barely/legally-required minimum *and* be properly identified.
Where is the purpose of deleting things when it is still visible to everyone? Not gonna happen. If you need a reason, how about privacy? Some people try to stay anonymous as possible here and non-public data is considered private data and as long as you do not remove (yes remove) our legal terms (you'd need to move maemo.org to a country where there is legally no private data) you are out of luck.
@chemist,
We are not talking about members ' posts that the members later thought better of and deleted. Those are not moderator actions. By moderating members' posts, moderators are already invading their privacy.
All we want is accountability. By agreeing to become a moderator, you agree to become a public figure and should be accountable for your actions. Yes, that includes the king of all moderators.
nokiabot
2015-06-03, 15:47
Report This | #5
Where is the purpose of deleting things when it is still visible to
everyone?
this is so true
Ok, couple of examples, so it is easier to discuss (didn't think this was such a new/little known idea):
https://8ch.net/log.php?board=n
https://modlog.github.io/#/r/conspiracy
The amount of detail is up for discussion, sure you will not repost child porn to logs, call the police, report IP etc, still a note should be left in logs. Mask IPs by randomly generated ids, or just use account names, mods can be masked to (mod1/mod2...) so people can see when modx goes on a rampage and can complain, admin will know who that is. Plenty of options to consider and not relying on mod remembering to add a note (which is not possible for deleted posts/threads btw)
(and the idea of reposting non-illegal content that was removed to a place like irclogs is good, keeps the thread going (how many OT rants gone missing?), stops link farming as not main site/not a clickable link with markup etc, illegal, sure delete, just leave trace of action taken
Twilight
2015-06-03, 16:47
The idea of setting up modlogs, which report their actions AS MODERATORS while covering the mod's identify through the use of a randomly generated IDs sounds perfect to me. I've been to sites that adopted such system, and the moderators' privacy was never compromised, while this made their actions as moderators transparent, which I believe every community needs.
I fully support this.
I am a public figure... and the forum software does not account to who is editing rather to what has been edited, iirc you cannot delete posts without giving a reason which is as transparent as it gets. It is not a switch I flip and you get a css export of moderations... find a plugin for vBulletin 3 and we can talk about it but I won't write you a filtered and sorted data export to wherever just so you guys have something to ... to and we are talking about <10 moderators to track, we are so small you could just ask the moderator of the subsection to be more transparent...
Feathers McGraw
2015-06-03, 17:03
Interesting idea, could be a worthwhile addition to the forum.
However, the #1 priority should be HTTPS - I was shocked that it wasn't supported when I joined the forum about a year ago. Not supporting https is way more of a privacy issue than the chance of moderators being malicious - didn't the hack on ubuntuforums start with stolen moderator credentials? If moderator actions are performed over HTTP, then this a foreseeable risk.
A cert costs all of about £5/yr...
you could just ask the moderator of the subsection to be more transparent...
That assumes that
You know where to look to find out who the moderator is (Folks, it is at the bottom of the forum sub-section page, the place that would an average user never occurred to look. For example, the sub-section we are currently in (http://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=16) has these moderators: chemist, HtheB, edgar2, thedead1440, jalyst);
There is only one moderator or it is quite straight-forward to figure out which one of the 5 it was; and
The moderator in question is cooperative.
Or you could publish the logs as per szopin's example and avoid the drama.
Can mods see who voted and how?
Can mods editing Votes?
Can mods edit polls?
I fear that mods tracking my every move, keystroke and sending it to NSA.
I don't dare to vote in this pull until this is established.
@chemist
On phone so can't do proper (deep)search, will give the duck another go from home, only thing I found was thread from 2002 about vbulletin mod log. Worst case will just reuse existing mod log adding simple s/mod-name/iddqd to a page that is publicly viewable (with robots.txt to prevent search engines from indexing), though idea of refreshing my memory of php is ***(was that a word, or just asterisks). Still I think this idea fits the theme here, and if ideological argument is not enough it also has practical benefits - no mod drama
btw if dave deletes his post, his reason entered is untransparent for most here, so kinda sucks (same for deleted threads), not sure if this is really that good
and yeah, ssl/https +1, even if free self generated cert, you can post it on twitter/announcement/email to active users
Wasmachinemann-NL
2015-06-03, 23:57
Ok, couple of examples, so it is easier to discuss (didn't think this was such a new/little known idea):
https://8ch.net/log.php?board=n
https://modlog.github.io/#/r/conspiracy
The amount of detail is up for discussion, sure you will not repost child porn to logs, call the police, report IP etc, still a note should be left in logs. Mask IPs by randomly generated ids, or just use account names, mods can be masked to (mod1/mod2...) so people can see when modx goes on a rampage and can complain, admin will know who that is. Plenty of options to consider and not relying on mod remembering to add a note (which is not possible for deleted posts/threads btw)
(and the idea of reposting non-illegal content that was removed to a place like irclogs is good, keeps the thread going (how many OT rants gone missing?), stops link farming as not main site/not a clickable link with markup etc, illegal, sure delete, just leave trace of action taken
I didn't know people knew about 8chan here on TMO, nice.
I didn't know people knew about 8chan here on TMO, nice.
On one hand agree (modlogs was uninterpretable idea until examples given), on the other, infinitechan is the last forum where they actually keep up the original internet ideas: as long as it is not illegal, you are free to exchange your ideas with others with no censorship (the cripple who owns it actually cares about the free speech and all, the last bastion with slashdots/reddits and else becoming 'safe spaces' for ads and malware, seriously a joke that so little know about this really)
It's like Stallman, we thought about this 10 years ago and came up with emacs solution, why change a thing (btw, for all stallman haters, he did change: http://www.networkworld.com/article/2900305/opensource-subnet/stallman-joins-the-internet-talks-net-neutrality-patents-and-more.html)
Can TMO join the present times?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bz5_mVqCYAEiDZW.jpg
this is our open source, transparency jesus that is up to date in problems we face believe it or not, go ahead post stallman eating foot, not even close
Last edited by szopin; Today at 02:30. Reason: missing bracket and picture of hotwheels, the most hated admin in the world for allowing free speech, and a bit of typo/rewording, no mods involved for all i know
Love that. ;)
/grabs popcorn/
Love that. ;)
/grabs popcorn/
Just google hotwheels, the man might suffer from painful as hell disease (he might also post eugenics article on stormfrontesque website, but he speaks about his daily pain and no other website would agree for such a publication, I disagree with him strongly, he is like hawking in this regard, but he has the right to hate his life as much as he does, no fixing that), please tell me how the only bastion of openness and free speech remains unknown to the visitors of this forum?
And just in case you want to bring easy argument: free speech is as long free as it doesn't touch you
http://i.imgur.com/GMcv9Z1.png
please tell me how the only bastion of openness and free speech remains unknown to the visitors of this forum?
Because this forum is about maemo in the first place I guess. Openness is an attitude we all like to propagate if there's a chance, but if that's what you're really after, you may want to register at http://www.transparency.org/.
But I also do like to know why my posts got deleted/removed though, in case that happens, my sympathy for that.
That's the whole point, we are all for openness and transparency here, but it seems like the mods/admins aren't really that interested. Are those virtues not part of FOSS community, or is the fact of applying them to ourselves after we've called each and every company/corp on those out problematic? Introspection time?
The point is, we are in lack of staff on all levels.
But I rest assured all volunteers here have good will.
Are you MC eV member already? - If not, get involved now (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=94257) and start something! :D
The point is, we are in lack of staff on all levels.
But I rest assured all volunteers here have good will.
Are you MC eV member already? - If not, get involved now and start something! :D
NO, just no, anonymity is also a virtue, not going to plaster my real name out there to fix org that doesn't even care about core values. Maybe when you guys turn the tide, so far there is really no reason to join this unless you want to join mcev drama (would modlogs help with that, frankly, no idea, could be)
edit: just to be clear, ppl used to be members and had full 'normal membership' included, now you need to provide your real name (address?) to vote on things that don't matter as in the end TMO and council have not signed 'we do whatever mcev tells us' agreement. Have that popcorn on yourselves, I'll watch from the shadows, this is not the old tmo that's for sure
edit2: goddamit we're going offtopic, anonymity and transparency, you have my vote, trying to override functioning system by privacy-deriding system that some members here still are not in agreement, new thread is needed
anonymity is also a virtue
100% agreed.
...not going to plaster my real name out there to fix org that doesn't even care about core values...
WTF? plastering? out there? conspiracy theory?
And you don't fix MC eV by joining it, you're just leaving out an option to raise your voice.if you don't.
WTF? plastering? out there? conspiracy theory?
And you don't fix MC eV by joining it, you're just leaving out an option to raise your voice.if you don't.
FOIA request? Are members not listed? Can I count on 'joining the club' while keeping my personal details secret? (we surely should move this to some other thread, but for transparency sake of MCEV, this is a little bit on topic)
(we surely should move this to some other thread, but for transparency sake of MCEV, this is a little bit on topic)
F*CK, where's a mod when you need one?!
:eek:
[edit] @ szopin, just ask yourself: where exactly starts self-censorship by anxity (introduced by whatever force/government)?
F*CK, where's a mod when you need one?!
:eek:
scared like fifa of all their wrongdoings being brought to light (this is a joke, just to make it clear, totally nothing against mods, just a fitting joke, nothing personal)
[edit] @ szopin, just ask yourself: where exactly starts self-censorship by anxity (introduced by whatever force/government)?
Self censorship is when you type f**k (with asterisks), as you know this forum treats us like children (this is also a thing we should stand up for and fight against, though maybe not until first blood). Not sure about anxity (anxiety? ancity? anzity?), but self-censorship is half way to hell, if you are afraid to say 'f**k that' because it might hurt someone's feelings and go for: I respectfully disagree. You just allowed your self censorship to castrate your idea/expression, welcome to 1984 or brave new world
endsormeans
2015-06-04, 02:18
Man...it doesn't matter where on this planet you are.
If Powers want to grab you...they'll grab you.
You think you have something they want ..they'll take it.
There is no hiding.
That being said.
Acting like you have something to hide doesn't help..
just attracts attention...
Even here...since forever the gov't has always taken names and pictures at protests and rallies...just so they have a list...
doesn't matter which party gets in.
It means if stuff goes down...they know who they are dealing with.
Essentially ..we expect our government to watch out for us...which they have done admirably...
it is a trick to balance the rights and privacy of the people (which they deserve) and the need for the state to be one step ahead of the really really bad guys ...so the innocent don't get hurt.
point in fact ...terrorism has had a rough time with us canadians ever since the FLQ Crisis of the early 70's ...because of our last great philosopher-king ...Prime Minister of Canada Pierre Trudeau ...a Socialist (gave the finger to the U.S. hehe..friend of Castro..defied the american insistence on canada joining the embargo against Cuba....a country Canada still loves to work with to this day....yea..Trudeau....love the guy....the man had panache..had guts...hehe...) ...very very famous clip and quote of his determination when dealing with a terrorist crisis here....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfUq9b1XTa0
I get that there are many places in this world...too many in fact...where fear rules...and for good reason...
Anyway ...I believe hiding isn't a solution to living...I also believe walking around fearing isn't a solution either...nor is broadcasting one's fears...nor broadcasting defiance nor open opposition...nor believing everything is fine...and walking around trying to be oblivious to it all...
Not easy...
But I do know everyone has to drop the fear first ...
Action or inaction... born out of fear usually doesn't work out well.
hm..the link won't work outside Canada...our national broadcaster here has copyright on the footage...
I'll send the 8 minute broadcasted impromptu interview directly to you szopin... ...20 second clips and sound bites really are terrible to sum up exactly what happened..
So yeah..I sent that clip to you....I'd post it here..but ...copyright and all...
Anyway...some background on the sitch in 1970...
Quebec had a very radical organization called the FLQ...
they believed that Quebec should secede from Canada...become it's own country...For the last hundred years there have been open debates ...referendums ...everyone has chimed in with their views, opinions, desires, no one has been left out of the process...everyone has been free to express their voice...always..to this day..such referendums resulted in Quebec voting to stay with Canada...this radical group figured that abducting Ministers...using them as held hostages and demanding that their specific demands be met...by the point of the gun.....1 of the hostages was shot dead...that was enough.
Trudeau sent in the army...not the police...not the reserves...he sent in the army...instituted Martial Law....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHaoBD-eakk
..oh yeah...he didn't mess around...
the clip is a gem....
one of the best ...concerning that situation....
SLA? and Stockholm Syndrome?
Naw...none of that applied here...
there was a difference here..
the hostages were actual hostages...
duly elected officials by majority vote, representatives of their people.
they weren't sympathetic...
one of them was shot dead by the FLQ while being held by them...
But anyway...my point to all this is that balancing act ...a legitimate government isn't voted in ...not to take care and guard their people...
the people want protection from terrorists...from the really bad people...(hell ...in the news right now in my country....our boys...our version of FBI/CIA just finished rounding up a very big powerful Mafia organization..big operation taking years of watching...waiting..) .thing is our country does honestly try pretty hard to respect people's rights and privacy...while trying to watch out for the trouble....it's a hard and challenging task...
not being vigilant and watchful enough ...and bad people sneak in...hurt alotta people...
overly protective and you are "Big Brother-ing" your population in the attempt to make sure no one gets hurt.
Anyway...Canada's response to the FLQ terror crisis sent a clear message...and we haven't had alotta probs since...We effectively said to the world.."You terrorists...don't try your crap with us..we're crazy...we don't negotiate with a gun pointed at our head...we'll take the bullet to the head...and spit out the bullet and then come straight for you..."
Real pivotal moment in Canadian history...
Anyway...I know my post may seem off topic...but there are relevant and topical points to all this...
I was trying to illustrate with a "real world" situation which occurred surrounding the difficulty of balancing the rights and privacy of the population...against... the need to scrutinize and screen everyone to make sure that everyone is being protected and that bad external or internal elements do not hurt the population which has voted you in to protect them...it isn't an easy job.
We allowed this to happen sadly, this is our internet, the internet we deserve for being so apathetic
Even sadder seeing this:
This video contains content from Canadian Broadcasting Corp., who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.
one more try, or maybe vimeo?
if the vid is 26 seconds long this works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeTsQQ22Uwc
http://share.gifyoutube.com/mld0nD.gif
[this post was edited by a mod, reason: just watch me]
Naw...
there was a difference here..
the hostages were actual hostages...
duly elected officials by majority vote, representatives of their people.
they weren't sympathetic...
one of them was shot dead by the FLQ while being held by them...
But anyway...
Symbionese Liberation Army with daughter of one of the richest men in this country of free united states did not just hold hostages, they killed people when gathering funds by robbing banks (that same daughter filmed holding an ak and taking part (diminished responsibility, she was in love (drugged))))
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0884842
Seriously something to watch, more people died thanks to SLA than in canada in that same time from natural terrorist causes :P
F*CK, where's a mod when you need one?!
:eek:
ok, I know this is ironic, but second that (is having modlogs public == mods hate you and will not help, I hope not, that would break the forum)
(is having modlogs public == mods hate you and will not help, I hope not, that would break the forum)
A moderator who hates having his actions exposed has no right to be a moderator. Full stop.
EDIT: If that means some moderators will resign, even better. We do not need cowards. In fact we do not need five moderators (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1472459#post1472459) per subsection. And before you ask, yes, I hereby volunteer to be a moderator and swear a full openness of my actions as per this post (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1472284#post1472284), whether the logs are made public or not.
Oh wow, do we need: volunteer for moderator posts; thread? This was just generic/high level/just bringing up an idea to the forum which hasn't worked on itself and likes to bash others with that (mod)log in its eye
(edit: and for transparency reasons: I would vote for pichlo, though he likes to disagree, so mod vendetta incoming in 3... 2.. 1.. jk, a joke, srsly, pls don't ban me)
Lets hope no fighting feminist sees that
They can always report you and have your post silently deleted. Better still give you infraction points.
Period can mean three things as far as I am concerned, all of them marked with a beginning and an end. Using the word for a punctuation without both attributes makes no sense.
They can always report you and have your post silently deleted. Better still give you infraction points.
Period can mean three things as far as I am concerned, all of them marked with a beginning and an end. Using the word for a punctuation without both attributes makes no sense.
Arghhh MODs did it, no, NO, I did it, deleted post was about full stop and how brits are stupid by having this definition:
Definition of FULL STOP
chiefly British
: period 5a
source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/full%20stop
Where did fighting feminists come from? No idea really, full stop
@all,
WTF? Either szopin and pichlo are playing some kind of game or some moderator is actually doing what we're asking not to do. Period? feminist?
Even if an entire post is deleted, please delete the content but not the post itself! REFERENTIAL INTEGRITY FFS!
@all,
WTF? Either szopin and pichlo are playing some kind of game or some moderator is actually doing what we're asking not to do. Period? feminist?
Even if an entire post is deleted, please delete the content but not the post itself! REFERENTIAL INTEGRITY FFS!
pichlo replied to my shitty weedy post that went from full stop to period to feminists, my bad, deleted, but too late as he already replied, yes, please mods show that you are actually useful, and not relict of old times
Unless you mean word period is offensive and should be asterisked (she had her ****** yesterday, oh boi, now the guessing is in full force)
pichlo don't thank me, this undermines our game, we're here to destroy last bastion of free speech and oppenness, remember?
@reinob: we're all disgusted by the poor "We have the bravery to bring back slavery, working in a supermarket is just the start of it", once you go after somewhat unacceptable/in bad taste why not whole way
pichlo don't thank me, this undermines our game, we're here to destroy last bastion of free speech and oppenness, remember?
Admittedly, the last two pages have lowered the standard of this thread.
Any casual visitors, please only read pages 1 and 2.
Is suggesting incest bannable offense:
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1472657&postcount=400
We all know where this is headed
http://share.gifyoutube.com/mld0nD.gif
Trudeauoix has a point, this should be mods motto: just watch me
thedead1440
2015-06-04, 17:16
Sigh... I feel lost with the last few posts. I am in agreement with the spirit of modlogs (as long as we can find a compatible plug in) and I have always tried to do my part to be transparent and open though I may have erred at times.
Whenever you need mods to attend to posts please use the report this button instead of a new thread or posts calling out for mods' attention. I am not as available as before so am not able to monitor the board continuously.
Therefore I am deleting the mod appeal thread and request someone to explain what is it that requires my attention in this thread.
A moderator who hates having his actions exposed has no right to be a moderator. Full stop.
EDIT: If that means some moderators will resign, even better. We do not need cowards. In fact we do not need five moderators (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1472459#post1472459) per subsection. And before you ask, yes, I hereby volunteer to be a moderator and swear a full openness of my actions as per this post (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1472284#post1472284), whether the logs are made public or not.
That Talk section has more than 2 moderators is simply explained, people post to Talk subsections and mods need to have access granted to move them to "their" assigned area, easiest way for me is to add them globally or I'd be forced to alter each and everyones permissions by hand...
You want to be moderator... same procedure as for everyone, tell me 1-3 subsections you want to be moderator in (your most frequent, preferably without 2 moderators already.) and we start from there.
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