What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2016? [Archive] - maemo.org

Ken-Young

2016-01-01, 01:16

debernardis

2016-01-01, 08:17

I don't want to play heretic here, but - you can have GNU-linux in a chroot in any modern rooted Android device. You can also have a somewhat limited GNU-linux in an unrooted device under a proot instead of chroot.
When you're inside, you can do all things you asked for.

For chrooted linux in a rooted device, see "Linux Deploy"

For prooted linux in an unrooted device, see "Debian noroot" or "GNURoot Debian".

I have Linux Deploy with a XFCE Ubuntu 14.04, living inside a 4 gigabyte file on my microsd card. You can automagically download from regular repos some other distro with that, like Kali, Debian, Fedora, CentOS, Arch, Gentoo, openSUSE and Slackware.

The prooted ones are still in earlier development, so Debian only. But working very well.

EDIT 2 :
here's Linux Deploy: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ru.meefik.linuxdeploy

Gnuroot Debian: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.gnuroot.debian

Debian noroot: http://bit.ly/1Re1vpd
I had to feed the original url into bit.ly because the package name contains "c u n t" and the bulletin board software is a silly bigot :)

peterleinchen

2016-01-01, 10:46

... I have two N900s, and even at this late date I don't know of a better choice. ....

Neither do I, sorry.
But all of your post I agree to, so community come up with proposals (even they are heretic like above ;))!

A Neo would be an update that this gem should have had when it was shipped. Nevertheless that is what I am hoping for and seeing as the best alternative!

www.rzr.online.fr

2016-01-01, 11:34

Debian noroot: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.****ubuntu

Broken link

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.****ubuntu&hl=en

I will try this once fdroid rebuilt it, can it be also ported to myriad dalvik or ACL ?

https://github.com/pelya/debian-noroot

http://proot.me/

switch-hitter

2016-01-01, 12:21

I want a mobile device that will run PyGI (https://wiki.gnome.org/action/show/Projects/PyGObject?action=show&redirect=PyGObject) scripts, unfortunately it looks like it's going to be a Windows 10 tablet :(

theonelaw

2016-01-01, 13:50

I really want to be able to carry a small gnu/linux machine where ever I go. I have two N900s, and even at this late date I don't know of a better choice. But maybe you do. I need X11 support (to handle some work-related legacy apps) so Jolla won't work for me. Ubuntu Touch on a Nexus 5 works pretty well (20 hours of battery life with light use) but I haven't been able to get Xmer to work, so once again lack of X11 support defeats me. I'd buy a Pyra in a second, even though I care nothing about games, but who knows when they will actually be available. I've pre-ordered a neo900, but frankly updating 2009 hardware to 2011 specs, at significant cost isn't as attractive as it used to be. Making a portable, battery operated Raspberry Pi doesn't seem to work very well, because Raspberry Pis were optimized for low cost, not low power.

I only need WiFi connectivity, since I can tether off my phone.

I'd happily pay up to $1000.

What am I missing? What's the best n900 replacement, supporting GNU and X11, that's shipping today?

I use these:

http://ruggon.com/en/ruggpad.php?id=7
a bit hefty but works well - I run Solydx 64bit on it,
a rolling release Debian genre

resistive screen wins

I also have this a lot cheaper but a bit older:
http://hiton.en.alibaba.com/product/1578992974-801358165/Factory_10_2_Intel_N2600_dual_core_Linux_tablet_pc .html

I run Sabayon 64bit on it (XFCE)
works well, but the screen is capacitive

If you are interested in either unit and
have problems buying through the links,
let me know and I will sell you mine (used but okay)

Hope this helps
the photos are of these units in operations

pichlo

2016-01-01, 14:02

xanderx

2016-01-01, 14:14

http://getchip.com/pages/pocketchip

theonelaw

2016-01-01, 14:15

That Ruggon looks like a lovely device indeed. Resistive screen RS232, full-size USB and RJ45 (in that order) FTW! Any idea of a price tag? ISTR someone (you?) posting it here before and the price was, let's just say, eye-watering. (I am viewing this on a Jolla which makes it a real pain so sorry if the price is on that page. I can't see it.)

Not me, some of the guys I train and advise.

The Ruggon was 1600 but I would bet Ruggon corp
will sell it cheaper these days. if you ask carefully maybe ?
That was with the 3g chip inside so cheaper without it

Just remember not to buy anything that says Bay Trail
and check the boot sequence before you buy,
I have been through that wringer and it is -zero- fun.

theonelaw

2016-01-01, 14:17

http://getchip.com/pages/pocketchip

As soon as it changes from pre-order
to tin ready to send....

t-b

2016-01-01, 14:26

What's the best n900 replacement, supporting GNU and X11, that's shipping today?

It is not clear to me why you need a n900 replacement. What are you currently missing?

pythoneye2

2016-01-01, 15:16

I have gathered some info and thoughts about possible som/soc n900 daughterboard expansions here. They may be used to build a standalone device as well.
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1490346&postcount=2
Still n900 with a remote desktop to a server is powerful if you can afford the traffic and server rent.

marmistrz

2016-01-01, 16:30

Well, my good ol' N900 is slowly dying (I'll try to unscrew it, clean & etc.) so I'll be looking for some replacement.

I'm considering another N900;
Pros:
- a real pocket computer and a phone in one
- runs real Debian/X11 apps (need some of them)
- can code something on the fly (Python 3.4, C++, OCaml)
- hw kbd
- whole lotta disk space (need at least 32G)
- minor, but still - a resistive screen!

Cons for me:
- the biggest one: really outdated browser, fennec is far beyond everyday-usable
- lacks good offline nav (modrana is far from being offline)
- minor: outdated spec (but one can live with it)

is there any alternative satisfying the pros?

N950 would be almost that, but is unpolished, lacks some of the apps I have on N900 and has some weird design decisions.
I'd love to see Debian there, but it's a matter of months at least, I guess

t-b

2016-01-01, 19:20

I'm considering another N900;
Pros:
- a real pocket computer and a phone in one
- runs real Debian/X11 apps (need some of them)
- can code something on the fly (Python 3.4, C++, OCaml)
- hw kbd
- whole lotta disk space (need at least 32G)
- minor, but still - a resistive screen!

Cons for me:
- the biggest one: really outdated browser, fennec is far beyond everyday-usable
- lacks good offline nav (modrana is far from being offline)
- minor: outdated spec (but one can live with it)

is there any alternative satisfying the pros?

Phones with physical keyboards are rare and those that exist usually have Android as OS.
If you don't mind the solution from debernardis the recent BlackBerry Priv might be interesting. The only current phone that is 'kind of' appealing to me. Seems (http://www.androidcentral.com/2015-smartphone-shoppers-purchase-intent) to be pretty popular as well, so maybe we will see more phones with a physical keyboard in 2016.

For me the N900 is still the best phone around, but I totally agree with the cons you've listed.

endsormeans

2016-01-01, 21:15

I believe ken and peter are on the right track.
And conversation on maemo and it's direction(s) potential and otherwise.
I'd imagine all know my passionate stance by now on getting maemo to pc distro status. (and the belief it could free us to go whichever ways we wish like any other distro...)
there was https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuIrRoRPufc
by Martinez
there also was this from long ago... https://wiki.gnome.org/Attic/Hildon
to bring maemo to desktop.
I believe the start of real breakthroughs will come when "freemantle" is finished.
But above and beyond all that.
Looking at what can be done / has been done... with the maemo platform on our devices..
porting this porting that...
Easy chrooting, Multi-booting, etc ...all kinds of os's and all...onto our devices...
Something was scratching at the back of my brain ...
esp. over that interesting "debian on android" alternative posed by debernardis...
Y'know...if we can ...we try to put ..." _ _ _ _" (insert os) onto our maemo devices...
hell...
just to see if we can do it.
Let alone run it optimally...

Soooo...
I'm not sure it's in the remotest possible..
perhaps it has already been posed somewhere here at tmo before...
perhaps there is just too much that bungs-up and it can't possibly work...
since I never tried it....
But has it been considered ...ever...
that we could try our own philo. in reverse...
and run maemo in a chroot on another phone's / tablet's / pc's operating system ...
instead?
Just throwin' it out there..

update:
looky-looing
found that someone already has wandered down this path...
I think it has merit to mine...
at least it has been somewhat tentatively explored for android devices...
https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=76149
perhaps more scrutiny and bending of wills towards this option will net more than just android device usage...

marmistrz

2016-01-01, 21:34

Hmm...

What I really hate about Android is
- the lack of mutlitasking - I freaking don't want anyone to close my apps. I am the one in control!
- the amount of malware - hell, you need an antivir on Android! It's becoming Windowsy even more
- afaik you can't do package management on the command line (apt-get/zypper)

Can one use the core Linux utils in the term (tar, find, grep, wget) on Android?
Is it possible to build any given C/C++ app (even the terminal one)? Assume I'd like to build Haskell/Brain****/Lisp for it.

As for what endsormeans says. The dealbreaker are the drivers. We have so many foss OSes. Ubuntu Touch, Plasma Mobile, FreeMantle (possibly), even Debiancould fit. But the first two work flawlessly on maybe 6 devices, none of them having a hw kbd. With the needed drivers and an unlocked bootloader we could have anything anywhere. So a device which supports the mainline kernel could fit.

endsormeans

2016-01-01, 21:39

hmmm...
yeah..
don't like android either for exactly the same reasons...
chrooting maemo onto proper pc linux os's then may have more merit.
It is at least a "foot in the door" to getting maemo running eventually ..natively...on pc's..

Ken-Young

2016-01-01, 22:35

Ken-Young

2016-01-01, 22:41

As soon as it changes from pre-order
to tin ready to send....

But only a five hour battery life... too short for me, I fear.

Ken-Young

2016-01-01, 22:49

It is not clear to me why you need a n900 replacement. What are you currently missing?

Actually, nothing. But the n900 is slow by today's standards (although I should keep reminding myself that I used to apply for grants to pay for CPU time on a VAX 11/780 !) and it's just too easy to exhaust the RAM on an N900 if you start doing anything serious. Once it starts swapping, you might as well give up on whatever you're trying to do.

It's also just worrying to have no obvious upgrade path. Sure, the neo900 is a significant upgrade, and I'll be happy when I can buy one, but it's hard to see that pathway continuing for many additional generations.

I really wish either Jolla or Ubuntu Touch had X11 support.

Ken-Young

2016-01-01, 23:00

Hmm...
[...]
The dealbreaker are the drivers.
[...]

Yup. I believe we'll be living in a iOS/Android duopoly until the next big change in computing hardware. As impressive as the efforts to make really open hackable phones like the gta04 and neo900 are (God bless the souls of those who work on them!) I remain convinced that building a cell phone is not something a handful of people can do in their spare time, no matter how talented they are (projects like Pyra seem a bit more feasible since they don't have all the phone-related complications). iOS is a nonstarter for a host of obvious reasons. The best hope is to come up with a gnu/linux distribution that uses Android linux kernels and drivers, so that it can quickly be ported to new generations of Android phone hardware. I think that's what Ubuntu Touch is, but I'm defeated by its lack of X11 support.

pichlo

2016-01-01, 23:02

But only a five hour battery life... too short for me, I fear.

5 hours would be more than enough if only they used batteries I could buy off the shelf at any supermarket, corner shop, petrol station or newspaper kiosk. Such as, for example, AA.

Ken-Young

2016-01-01, 23:18

[...]
I'm not sure it's in the remotest possible..
perhaps it has already been posed somewhere here at tmo before...
perhaps there is just too much that bungs-up and it can't possibly work...
since I never tried it....
But has it been considered ...ever...
that we could try our own philo. in reverse...
and run maemo in a chroot on another phone's / tablet's / pc's operating system ...
instead?
Just throwin' it out there..
[...]

I think this would be great. Almost ideal, since we'd have real Adroid available along with our beloved Maemo, and if we got it to work once, it would probably be possible to port it fairly quickly to new Android devices. But how do we get X11 to work so that the Maemo UI will work?

Copernicus

2016-01-01, 23:32

I remain convinced that building a cell phone is not something a handful of people can do in their spare time, no matter how talented they are (projects like Pyra seem a bit more feasible since they don't have all the phone-related complications).

This! I believe this is the key: the rise of the smartphone has led to the death of the handheld computer. These are two flavors that do NOT taste great together: a general-purpose computing device, allowing the user to perform whatever tasks they wish, and a telecommunications device, designed specifically for both high availability and to work within the constraints of cellular service providers and national communications laws.

In order to be available at any moment, a smartphone has to be small enough to comfortably fit in a pocket, pretty enough to not embarrass the user in public situations, and constantly spend power waiting for incoming calls. Modern devices have sacrificed flexibility and user freedom in order to achieve these goals. And they've succeeded.

So really, the key to getting back to portable computing is to just completely ignore the entire cellphone industry. Get a phone for phone calls, and get something else entirely for portable computing. A tablet, a hacked-together Raspberry Pi device, a Pyra, really anything that avoids the insanity of the cellphone industry...

Anyway, that's my opinion. :)

aegis

2016-01-01, 23:35

Hmm...

What I really hate about Android is
- the lack of mutlitasking - I freaking don't want anyone to close my apps. I am the one in control!

In practice, given a modern Android phone/tablet with 2GB+ RAM, this rarely happens. I've left SSH terminal sessions running for hours while using my tablet for other stuff. It's more reliable by far than my Jolla and none of the 10 minute task shuffling you have to do on iOS.

- the amount of malware - hell, you need an antivir on Android! It's becoming Windowsy even more

Maybe I'm lucky here but I've not come across any. On the other hand, if Maemo, Sailfish etc were more popular, maybe they'd have malware. On the face of it, the security model on both is a far cry from the sandboxing and other measures on the mainstream OS's.

- afaik you can't do package management on the command line (apt-get/zypper)

Not AFAIK.

Can one use the core Linux utils in the term (tar, find, grep, wget) on Android?

Not all of them are included but you can install them. Or install Busybox.

Is it possible to build any given C/C++ app (even the terminal one)? Assume I'd like to build Haskell/Brain****/Lisp for it.

On the device itself? Not sure why you wouldn't just use a computer, the Android ndk and a cross compiler.

As for what endsormeans says. The dealbreaker are the drivers. We have so many foss OSes. Ubuntu Touch, Plasma Mobile, FreeMantle (possibly), even Debiancould fit. But the first two work flawlessly on maybe 6 devices, none of them having a hw kbd. With the needed drivers and an unlocked bootloader we could have anything anywhere. So a device which supports the mainline kernel could fit.

Some of which already use libhybris to solve the driver problem.

I'm not intending to defend Android here but often in these discussions the problem seems to be ideological when pragmatically, Android usually isn't as restrictive as people think. And yes I'd love to see a "proper" Unix based pocket computer that works more like a desktop and less like an iPhone but so far that seems to be a very distant prospect.

endsormeans

2016-01-01, 23:52

I would imagine now that we don't have nokia breathing down our collars...
and ...
rather soon...
if we do not do something...
(although I do have high hopes for spin-off breakthroughs from freemantle )
then the problem will be on our doorstep...
(Our aging fleet of devices will eventually fail (the n900's seem more delicate than my n8x0's...so it is anyone's guess the n8x0's lifespan...but increasingly n900's are having failing I have noted in tmo posts here...more and more there are posts of people cannibalizing n900's for their parts...sooner or later people...) and at best we will have maemo in scratchbox to look at..as more and more members leave for inferior devices that simply work... a sad ...increasingly quiet end to us ...)
I don't ever want to see the above possible future unfold.
King was pretty much the only set of eyes puzzling over the issue.
More eyes may help.

Chrooting maemo onto debian pc (convertible tablet even...I know Martinez work plays nicely with them..touch is nice ...but ..) maybe?
hm...

I do believe we need to create... at the barest minimum... maemo-esque window managers for linux pc.
(since pretty much everything maemo program-wise that we have... IS after all...pretty much debian...)
so we have at the least...a temporary "home"...
a refuge...

In the words of the great architect...
https://youtu.be/XhRZ3JkTYd4

t-b

2016-01-01, 23:53

Actually, nothing. But the n900 is slow by today's standards (although I should keep reminding myself that I used to apply for grants to pay for CPU time on a VAX 11/780 !) and it's just too easy to exhaust the RAM on an N900 if you start doing anything serious. Once it starts swapping, you might as well give up on whatever you're trying to do.

So to summarize - you are looking for a pocketable device that doesn't necessarily has phone capabilities - good battery life and is faster than your N900 and available right now. You already mentioned liking the Pyra that is not available yet. In that case, you might like a Pandora too. Not a tremendous upgrade, but still it does qualify as an improvement imho. You can install native Debian or Slackware on it and there are a few decent up-to-date browsers.

There will be a couple of classic Pandora's available in the dragonbox shop soon - not now unfortunately. if you are seriously interested and they are available in the shop you need to be fast.. they sell like hotcakes.

https://www.dragonbox.de/en/27-consoles-

Copernicus

2016-01-01, 23:56

As to compiling on a smartphone:

On the device itself? Not sure why you wouldn't just use a computer, the Android ndk and a cross compiler.

RIGHT! This is the thing: it is intuitively obvious that one does not compile code on a smartphone. Why is this? Because a smartphone is not a computer.

It doesn't matter that we've now got devices as small or smaller than cell phones (such as the RPi) that are, in essence, just tiny desktop computers that run full-blown desktop operating systems. No, we've all been brainwashed that a smartphone can't do general-purpose computing, it's too tiny and too weak for that. Stick with the apps provided to you in the walled-garden ecosystem, and don't even try to do anything on your own without the supervision of your manufacturer or cell-service provider...

t-b

2016-01-02, 00:10

So really, the key to getting back to portable computing is to just completely ignore the entire cellphone industry.

Haha - great idea and good luck trying to convince the rest of the world ;)

Ken-Young

2016-01-02, 00:17

[...]
There will be a couple of classic Pandora's available in the dragonbox shop soon - not now unfortunately. if you are seriously interested and they are available in the shop you need to be fast.. they sell like hotcakes.

https://www.dragonbox.de/en/27-consoles-

Yup, you're right. I should buy a classic Pandora, and then count myself lucky if I get to buy a Pyra later.

rcolistete

2016-01-02, 00:17

Ken-Young

2016-01-02, 00:19

Haha - great idea and good luck trying to convince the rest of the world ;)

But the Pandora/Pyra people really do seem to be able to make these devices.

Ken-Young

2016-01-02, 00:25

I bet that in 2016 new devices will appear with Raspberry Pi Zero (US$5, 512KB of RAM, almost impossible to buy until now) inside. At least in Indiegogo/Kickstarter. Like some pocket computer with keyboard, tablet in different screen sizes, etc.

Why haven't we seen Portable Raspberry devices yet, then (I know people have posted howtos about making your own, but I've not seen a commercial product offering a Raspberry xx with touchscreen, battery and reasonable [12 hour minimum] battery life). I don't see the Pi Zero as a real game-changer, because the older Raspberry devices are already cheap relative to adding a good touchscreen and battery. I've heard that all the Raspberries just suck too much power to make a decent portable device. Am I wrong about that?

Also, 512MB of RAM just isn't enough of an upgrade from the n900 to be very attractive.

aegis

2016-01-02, 00:35

RIGHT! This is the thing: it is intuitively obvious that one does not compile code on a smartphone. Why is this? Because a smartphone is not a computer.

I can do almost all the maintenance on my bike using a Swiss army knife or multi tool. But, I'd rather use the full sized tools I have in my garage.

Walled gardens don't come in to it.

endsormeans

2016-01-02, 00:50

Haha - great idea and good luck trying to convince the rest of the world ;)

It worked well for the n8x0's ...just pair them with your phone.
Utilizing the connectivity of the phone without the nightmare of integrating cell tech into the n8x0.
Letting the n8x0 do what it does well...
and the phone do what it does well...

Convincing the world this is the way to go...
well that hasn't happened ever with maemo..
and I don't think ever will.
But It is a very smart and sane approach for budget-minded hacker device projects ...

Copernicus

2016-01-02, 00:57

I can do almost all the maintenance on my bike using a Swiss army knife or multi tool. But, I'd rather use the full sized tools I have in my garage.

:) :) My brother purchased a full-sized Windows desktop tower machine last year. I had him open it up for me recently, and we were rather surprised to see a tiny micro-ATX motherboard in the case, surrounded by lots and lots of empty space...

A computer doesn't need to be physically large in order to do decent work.

endsormeans

2016-01-02, 01:20

actually ..
got mah nokia bh-104 paired to mah n900 for handsfree calls...
and my n900 paired to one of my n810's...
dash mounted in my truck so I have the larger screen for maps...
(sure the n810 doesn't have nice mapping compared to ...whatever..but still...it's on a bigger screen 4.3" ...and it's maemo...)

rcolistete

2016-01-02, 01:35

Why haven't we seen Portable Raspberry devices yet, then (I know people have posted howtos about making your own, but I've not seen a commercial product offering a Raspberry xx with touchscreen, battery and reasonable [12 hour minimum] battery life). I don't see the Pi Zero as a real game-changer, because the older Raspberry devices are already cheap relative to adding a good touchscreen and battery. I've heard that all the Raspberries just suck too much power to make a decent portable device. Am I wrong about that?

Also, 512MB of RAM just isn't enough of an upgrade from the n900 to be very attractive.

Raspberry Pi Zero and CHIP (http://getchip.com/) are a lot smaller and cheaper than Raspberry A+/B+/2B. So I bet the community will develop new decides around them in 2016.

rcolistete

2016-01-02, 01:53

For Raspberry Pi, what about a display 5.0" 800×480 Resistive LCD Touch HDMI+GPIO for US$25 (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/5-inch-800x480-Touch-LCD-Screen-5-Display-For-Raspberry-Pi-Pi2-Model-B-A-Hot/32438032888.html) ?
Here more screenshots and details, from WaveShare (http://www.waveshare.com/product/mini-pc/raspberry-pi/expansions/5inch-hdmi-lcd.htm). You can buy a case (http://www.waveshare.com/product/mini-pc/raspberry-pi/expansions/5inch-hdmi-lcd-b-with-bicolor-case.htm) with or without the display (http://www.waveshare.com/product/mini-pc/raspberry-pi/others/bicolor-case-for-5inch-lcd-type-b.htm).
http://www.waveshare.com/img/devkit/accessories/5inch-HDMI-LCD-B-Bicolor-Holder/5inch-HDMI-LCD-B-Bicolor-Holder-5.jpg
A Raspberry Pi Zero would be a lot more portable.
So, US$5 for RPi Zero + US$25 (5.0" display) + US$5.79 (for the case). Add a good battery, WiFi USB, microSD card (for Raspbian, etc), a backside case (3D printed), voilá, you have a full Gnu/Linux tablet costing less than US$100.

I bet it is a matter of time (some months) to somebody offering this type of RPi/CHIP tablet ready for end users. Like them but thinner :
https://learn.adafruit.com/7-portable-raspberry-pi-multitouch-tablet/ (https://learn.adafruit.com/7-portable-raspberry-pi-multitouch-tablet)
http://makezine.com/2014/01/07/how-i-built-a-raspberry-pi-tablet/
http://i1.wp.com/cdn.makezine.com/uploads/2014/01/pipad_front_side.jpg?zoom=1.5&resize=620%2C413

Ken-Young

2016-01-02, 02:05

It worked well for the n8x0's ...just pair them with your phone.
Utilizing the connectivity of the phone without the nightmare of integrating cell tech into the n8x0.
Letting the n8x0 do what it does well...
and the phone do what it does well...

Convincing the world this is the way to go...
well that hasn't happened ever with maemo..
and I don't think ever will.
But It is a very smart and sane approach for budget-minded hacker device projects ...

Yes. I know people here tend to poo-poo the iPhone, but the iPhone changed everything. Before the IBM PC, there was a period of great diversity in hobbyist personal computers. Wonderful things like the Amiga appeared. You could buy bizarre computers with Z80 and 6800 CPUs on the same board, which would allow you to run software for different architectures on a single machine without emulation. All that stopped when the IBM PC appeared. Nokia's tablets date back to a similarly inchoate period for smartphones. The iPhone ended the period of radical experimentation. Microsoft, Blackberry, Jolla et al. are trying to build something just like an iPhone, with a different underlying OS, which is silly, pointless and doomed. For the foreseeable future, Apple will have the market for high end, high margin iPhones, and a hundred different manufacturers will make lower-end "iPhones" with Android technology. The N900 is like the Amiga - something nerds will still be talking about fondly 15 years from now, causing all normal people to roll their eyes and try to change the subject.

Ken-Young

2016-01-02, 02:19

For Raspberry Pi, what about a display 5.0" 800×480 Resistive LCD Touch HDMI+GPIO for US$25 (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/5-inch-800x480-Touch-LCD-Screen-5-Display-For-Raspberry-Pi-Pi2-Model-B-A-Hot/32438032888.html) ?
[...]

The thing that worries me about the Raspberries is that I keep reading things like this:
https://www.adafruit.com/products/1566, which reports a 15 hour battery life for a Pi with a 10,000 mAH battery and a headless Pi with no load except pinging. That's a huge battery (216 cubic centimeters!), giving a barely acceptable runtime on a headless Pi!

rcolistete

2016-01-02, 02:27

Look at these data :
http://raspi.tv/2015/raspberry-pi-zero-power-measurements
http://raspi.tv/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Pi-Zero-Power-Usage-Table.jpg
Add the current used by the screen (which you depend on the size, type, brightness level, etc).
We see that RPi Zero uses approx. half of the power of RPi 2B.

Ken-Young

2016-01-02, 02:33

We see that RPi Zero uses approx. half of the power of RPi 2B.

Are you satisfied with a 700 MHz single core CPU and 512 MB of RAM in 2016? Don't get me wrong - I think the Pi Zero is a great development, which will make many projects possible that would have been unaffordable before. But it's really more for "The internet of things" rather than a pocket workstation, in my opinion.

endsormeans

2016-01-02, 02:35

Well the iphone is very successful.
and rightly so.
There will always be a majority who wish to relinquish control for immediate gratification, convenience, limited options and the ability consequently to blame another for....whatever.
however I do believe there also will always be at the very least ...a minority who insist on having control over their devices / os's for exactly the opposite reasons.
One thing I have noticed is that ...
sure we have members who "say" they have (or are going to ...) change(d) to ios or android...
I believe it is precious few who do leave this place and what I consider the "only sane option" ...
most of those who truly leave...
move to android and mod their way to a semblance of happiness ..
or head to sailfish..
or any other sane manipulable ..control-able...alternative ...

the pizero ..and the pocketchip may very well prove to be the affordable gateway drug we need to get the ball rolling and get fresh bodies....
hm...
freemantle...
even maemo4...
on pocketchip / pizero...
would go a long way to spreading the maemo-virus to every back pocket ...

rcolistete

2016-01-02, 02:53

Are you satisfied with a 700 MHz single core CPU and 512 MB of RAM in 2016? Don't get me wrong - I think the Pi Zero is a great development, which will make many projects possible that would have been unaffordable before. But it's really more for "The internet of things" rather than a pocket workstation, in my opinion.

I know RPi from other people. My RPi 2B and A+ are on the way to my home. I've not succeded to buy a RPi Zero yet, the demand is very high and they make only 10,000 each week. I will use them with external sensor data.

Ok, I agree, RPi Zero is low end for desktop use. But it is what is available in small size.

Ken-Young

2016-01-02, 02:54

[...]
There will always be a majority who wish to relinquish control for immediate gratification, convenience, limited options and the ability consequently to blame another for....whatever.
[...]

Yup, it was an historical accident that consumers got their initial access to the internet by purchasing a general-purpose computer. Most people do not need to own a general purpose, user-programmable computer at all. Not in their pocket, not at home on a desktop.

Ken-Young

2016-01-02, 02:58

I know RPi from other people. My RPi 2B and A+ are on the way to my home. I've not succeded to buy a RPi Zero yet, the demand is very high and they make only 10,000 each week. I will use them with external sensor data. [...]

Making 10,000 a week, and they can't keep them stocked! This is the type of product Jolla should have made, instead of yet another vanilla smartphone.

HtheB

2016-01-02, 03:12

Check out the Pyra (the Open Pandora successor)

www.pyra-handheld.com

But shipping: soon

Ken-Young

2016-01-02, 03:17

Check out the Pyra (the Open Pandora successor)

www.pyra-handheld.com

But shipping: soon

I agree. The Pyra is what I'm asking for. I don't like the gaming controls, but it would be silly for me to make a big deal about that. It's got a huge battery, two SDXC slots - there's a lot to love! But "soon" isn't now.

robthebold

2016-01-02, 03:24

Before the IBM PC, there was a period of great diversity in hobbyist personal computers. Wonderful things like the Amiga appeared. You could buy bizarre computers with Z80 and 6800 CPUs on the same board, which would allow you to run software for different architectures on a single machine without emulation. All that stopped when the IBM PC appeared.

There were plenty of hobbyist computers before the IBM PC (1981), but your timeline's a little off. Sure there were interesting things like the Altair and Heath-kit and other stuff before the PC, and the Apple I and II, 8 bit Ataris and VIC-20 predated it, but the real explosion of variety came after. The C=64 came out in '82, the Amiga in '85. Most notably, the Macintosh in 1984, of course. The Atari 1200 and successors came out in the early 80s. And if it weren't for Compaq making a widely available IBM work-alike around '83, the DOS (and then Windows) empire might never have risen with just Big Blue's hardware supporting it. (BTW, that Compaq "luggable" was quite a revolutionary computer at the time, being not only DOS compatible but portable in the sense that it had a handle and case.) And that's just the US: the Sinclair and BBC computers were popular in the UK, for instance. (An incredibly crappy but amazingly cheap version of the Sinclair -- $19.99 at my local drugstore!! -- appeared briefly in the US in a joint venture with Timex.)

javispedro

2016-01-02, 05:19

The best hope is to come up with a gnu/linux distribution that uses Android linux kernels and drivers, so that it can quickly be ported to new generations of Android phone hardware. I think that's what Ubuntu Touch is, but I'm defeated by its lack of X11 support.

Or Mer, or Sailfish, or FirefoxOS, or even lunaOS these days...

There's no longer any Linux left, it's just Android these days, and starting to eat up on the desktop too.

Ken-Young

2016-01-02, 05:24

Or Mer, or Sailfish, or FirefoxOS, or even lunaOS these days...

There's no longer any Linux left, it's just Android these days, and starting to eat up on the desktop too.

I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that one of the above OSs can use Android kernel and drivers, and provide gnu/linux + X11? I'm pretty sure that's not true of Sailfish - it is Wayland based, and I've been told that the X11 compatibility that Wayland hypothetically provides does not actually exist for Sailfish. I think Mer is Wayland only too now. Am I wrong?

javispedro

2016-01-02, 05:44

I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that one of the above OSs can use Android kernel and drivers, and provide gnu/linux + X11? I'm pretty sure that's not true of Sailfish - it is Wayland based, and I've been told that the X11 compatibility that Wayland hypothetically provides does not actually exist for Sailfish. I think Mer is Wayland only too now. Am I wrong?

Yes, all of them use Android behind the scenes and (except for FirefoxOS) provide a GNU userland and X11. In the case of Sailfish, there's Xsdl for a quick show, and Xwayland for a.. well, at this point, it offers no benefits over Xsdl.

switch-hitter

2016-01-02, 09:30

The best hope is to come up with a gnu/linux distribution that uses Android linux kernels and drivers, so that it can quickly be ported to new generations of Android phone hardware. I think that's what Ubuntu Touch is, but I'm defeated by its lack of X11 support.

Have you seen this (http://linux.softpedia.com/blog/watch-ubuntu-mate-desktop-running-on-meizu-mx4-with-ubuntu-touch-498281.shtml) video of Ubuntu Mate running on the Meizu MX4? It demonstrates applications such as LibreOffice and Chrome running on XMir.

Canonical are also working on Miracast (http://news.softpedia.com/news/ubuntu-touch-will-soon-be-able-to-connect-to-wi-fi-displays-via-miracast-498092.shtml) support.

They're also teasing us a little:
"The same Ubuntu experience across any device - coming soon" (https://plus.google.com/+Ubuntu/posts/XKAdZz9GqFY)

smoku

2016-01-02, 14:00

I really want to be able to carry a small gnu/linux machine where ever I go. [...] I'd buy a Pyra in a second, even though I care nothing about games, but who knows when they will actually be available.

Why not Pandora 1GHz?
https://www.dragonbox.de/en/189-pandora-1ghz-consoles.html

pichlo

2016-01-02, 14:55

Why not Pandora 1GHz?
https://www.dragonbox.de/en/189-pandora-1ghz-consoles.html

"Currently out of stock." That's why.

marmistrz

2016-01-02, 19:56

#21: there is libhybris. Why can't we use it to run our favorite distro on any Android device? What are we missing?

#22: I'd argue. The thing I love about N900 is that it's one device to rule them all. I don't have to carry two devices. There are times I use it mainly as a phone. At times, I exhaust its computer potential. It's a win-win situation
(more replies will follow in a while)

#25:
it's why it's not always good to use popular OSes :)

well, it's nice to be able to code on the fly, on the phone. It's why I built OCaml. Sometimes, when I was reading some C examples, I simply fired up some text editor, compiled and checked how it works.

#27: well, what I'm missing in Pandora is... the cellphone feature

#34: yes, but you don't bring the whole toolbox just to screw one screw. So it comes with the smartphones - it's easier to code a 10-liner on a phone than to carry the laptop with you.

as for the iPhone. Its success bases on the fact that an average user wishes not to think about the usage. Just make a couple of calls, send some snaps, reply on fb. Nothing intricate, nothing complicated. We're not average users.

as for the Pyra. I wish I could really use it as a phone :) But with terminal-only dialing, I really doubt it's ready for it :)
besides, the gaming controls seem superfluous to me.

Someone commented a thing about Jolla. Well, it's unavoidable to target mainstream audience. It's the core of the company's income. What Nokia managed to do and failed to continue was to create a device which both laymen and hackers can use.

smoku

2016-01-02, 23:23

#21: there is libhybris. Why can't we use it to run our favorite distro on any Android device? What are we missing?

An N900-like android device?

Ken-Young

2016-01-03, 00:13

Have you seen this (http://linux.softpedia.com/blog/watch-ubuntu-mate-desktop-running-on-meizu-mx4-with-ubuntu-touch-498281.shtml) video of Ubuntu Mate running on the Meizu MX4? It demonstrates applications such as LibreOffice and Chrome running on XMir.
[...]

It's videos like that which are the source of much frustration to me. The narrator says "First of all we have to start an xmir window, and I will do this from a remote login where I have already lined up the commands..." . The commands to get xmir to work are never shown. I've seen several videos like this that show xmir can work on at least some Ubuntu Touch devices, but I've found none that show how to actually get xmir to run. What little snippets of nonvideo documentation I've found has only allowed me to brick the phone a few times. I've seen even less evidence that SailfishOS actually can work as an X11 server.

marmistrz

2016-01-03, 07:24

An N900-like android device?

Well, what I mean is: we have libhybris. Even though, Ubuntu Touch barely works on unofficial devices. Shouldn't it be trivial to install Linux on any Android device?

smoku

2016-01-03, 07:47

Well, what I mean is: we have libhybris. [...] Shouldn't it be trivial to install Linux on any Android device?

If it was, these https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Adaptations/libhybris would be all green.

Android hardware adaptations are full of horrible hacks. And libhybris is a hack on top of these hacks, not a silver bullet.

If an Android hardware adaptation is decent, libhybris works pretty much out of hand.
But if it is a hack, one needs to find out and port the hacks to make libhybris work.

marmistrz

2016-01-03, 09:31

Hmmm... Basically the only one listed with full compat is Xperia Pro... which has hw kbd

www.rzr.online.fr

2016-01-03, 12:36

What about keyboards for portable consoles like Nintendo DS ?

http://www.engadget.com/2016/01/03/windows-95-on-nintendo-3ds/

szopin

2016-01-03, 13:37

Can send you a jolla+hwkbd for a tryout, XWayland is already running if you plan to interact just with keys (mouse/touch input needs work still afaik), closest to n900 it gets until neo, though that still is/will be on ageing libc/glibc/younameit so newer things won't work. If the things you need for work can be waylanized it's the way to go, if closed... n900 is still king prolly

nokiabot

2016-01-03, 17:52

as there are android phones with simalar to n900 specs why cannot libhybris or android drivers or maemo on similar device does not work i mean whats wrong with software as software has lot more customisablity than hardware
some body answer this in a sane to understand langague which dosent go too overly techinical please
thanks

endsormeans

2016-01-03, 18:04

hummity-hum-hum...
xperia pro has quite the list of linux running on it too...
there we go.
problem solved...
(other than it is capacitive screen ..yuckie...but ...[sigh] ...bearable...)
ok that settles it...
everybody..!
time to buy up xperia`s and get maem runnin`
:D

javispedro

2016-01-03, 18:10

I've seen even less evidence that SailfishOS actually can work as an X11 server.

Was this (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1439988&postcount=11) not enough? :)

Yes, input needs work. Touch is useless, mouse I've never tried (maybe via BT... hum...), and all stylus I've tried were garbage. I don't know what my next device is going to be now that Jolla has lost it, but I'll have a stylus.

That, I'm sure of.

<rant>
With that said, I've lost myself quite a bit of interest in using phones as a mobile computer, as I already mentioned somewhere else... X11 is one of the reasons, albeit minor one.

The major reason is divergence with the desktop. I've grown tired of thinking "no, can't use haskell on this project, because it'll be a pain to port to WhateverArmLinuxDistributionI'mCurrentlyUsingToday". Can't use this python module, can't use this newer version of this random C++ library, or can't use this compiler feature.

When I got my Surface the convenience of running the same damn Gentoo disk image I run on the rest of my desktops... well. It can't be overstated enough. The Jolla comes close, but as my free time gets reduced, my sensibility for small 'paper cuts' increases... and I admit Gentoo for ARM is full of them.

So, if I ever return to "mobile computing", it'll be on a device I can run a damn stock Gentoo and no crappy "mobile" distro where even getting a sane /usr/bin/man is a nuisance, or I have to battle the host system just to listen to the microphone, get my daemon to run on startup, or actually be able to perform useful work without being killed or suspended.

If that means x86-only and 10 year old GPU, I don't care (but sadly, I'd mind the battery...)

If I can run a simple phone dialer application on top of Gentoo, for the better. If touch-friendly versions of PIM are also available, then more for the better.
</rant>

marmistrz

2016-01-03, 18:34

@javispedro: it's why I think about running Gnome Shell/Unity on N900/N950, since it could suit a mobile device (rather than a computer). But I won't experience with my main device and N950 needs much work.

@all: Yeah, xperia ain't bad. But, it's oldish, so I doubt it's the right direction. Can you find anything that runs Android, is similar to the N900 and has the right spec. And most preferably - a resistive screen, it's one of the reasons I'd favor N900 to the N950 even if it had the same OS.

jellyroll

2016-01-03, 20:24

But the n900 is slow by today's standards (although I should keep reminding myself that I used to apply for grants to pay for CPU time on a VAX 11/780 !) and it's just too easy to exhaust the RAM on an N900 if you start doing anything serious. Once it starts swapping, you might as well give up on whatever you're trying to do.

You should give it a chance.

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93878&highlight=debian900

Ariadeno

2016-01-03, 20:48

handaxe

2016-01-03, 20:54

It's videos like that which are the source of much frustration to me. The narrator says "First of all we have to start an xmir window, and I will do this from a remote login where I have already lined up the commands..." . The commands to get xmir to work are never shown.

O/T: these might help, as the comments have information of the sort you mention:

https://plus.google.com/+ReinerKlenk/posts/5Jwzahxjxsw
https://plus.google.com/+ReinerKlenk/posts/bF4x8vWY8NU

and

http://mutse.github.io/2015/11/08/howto-launch-desktop-apps-on-utouch/

marmistrz

2016-01-03, 21:17

@Ariadeno: why do you claim so? the keyboard is not sliding. But it's nothing when compared to the lack of arrows! How will you access the terminal here?

endsormeans

2016-01-03, 22:03

Just got back from a hike with the pup through the woods thinkin about it....
yeah
xperia is gettin on...long in the tooth..
and still would keep us on the linear track to oblivion...
we need freemantle, we need to be unshackled.
we need to turn maemo into a debian distro respin..
we gotta get out of this place if it`s the last thing we ever do...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxNEiZhpinY

Ariadeno

2016-01-04, 01:51

@Ariadeno: why do you claim so? the keyboard is not sliding. But it's nothing when compared to the lack of arrows! How will you access the terminal here?

Actually, the whole keyboard is an entire trackpad. Flicking towards a direction could emulate an arrow key-press. I agree that it wouldn't be as convenient as hardware arrow keys but still.

I can think of other tricks for the symbols/characters as well.

sicelo

2016-01-04, 07:30

I think the closest modern device to N900 is BlackBerry Passport Silver Edition with Android.

http://static1.gamespot.com/uploads/scale_super/1156/11564957/2942942-7429838871-29403.jpg

The BlackBerry OS version is already on the market for a while now, but this isn't yet released, not even officially announced.

Running Linux on this device will undoubtedly resemble the N900 experience.

Are you telling us that this BlackBerry can run Linux? Doesn't sound "true" to me, or have I not been following BlackBerry enough? Or you're talking about chroot for example? The OP has real need to have access to X11. Will that work with this? I know BB OS is unixy, but ...

biketool

2016-01-04, 07:45

I haven't been following it properly, but I remember talk for several years now that the Android kernel would be mainlining. I assume that would mean that the drivers would work for mainline kernel and that should mean both x11 and surfaceflinger(or whatever android uses for video) would both be options from that point on.
I believe that is what Ubuntu is banking on to get a more ubuntu experience onto their phone OS. I gave ubuntu a try, but the big sticky points were the weak compatible software ecosystem while x11 apps are unavailable as well as the creep factor of needing a launchpad login to access the repos.
I am sticking with my N900 and BT tethering a WiFI Nexus-7(flo), in a microUSB keyboard folding case, with Cyanogen(block APK install permissions!) and F-droid repos(no Google and GooglePlay snoops) until I can get a real Linux replacement phone and tethered tablet. Maybe that will be a de-creepified fork of future Ubuntu touch.

marmistrz

2016-01-04, 08:39

Ariadeno

2016-01-04, 13:27

Are you telling us that this BlackBerry can run Linux? Doesn't sound "true" to me, or have I not been following BlackBerry enough? Or you're talking about chroot for example? The OP has real need to have access to X11. Will that work with this? I know BB OS is unixy, but ...

Please read the first sentence of the post you quoted.

sicelo

2016-01-04, 13:36

okay .

mp107

2016-01-04, 20:11

There is a thread on XDA about porting Sailfish OS to Xperia 2011 devices (f.e. Xperia Pro):
http://forum.xda-developers.com/jolla-sailfish/general/request-port-sailfish-os-to-xperia-2011-t2171283

I have tried to run Sailfish on Sony Ericsson Xperia Ray but couldn't make the touchscreen work.
Despite it, I am going to experiment with it again in future.

endsormeans

2016-01-04, 21:25

Grab this: http://wiki.maemo.org/Potential_Android_successor

I know, very Spartan ;) very draft-quality.
It's just a template, even the information for the Xperia isn't complete.

Folks, add any devices you know. Maybe there'll be something found for someone to port onto. ;)

endsormeans, can you please moderate it? I doubt I'll have time for it.

sure...
I can check in now and again and make sure all is going smooth.

hmm..thinking on it..
off the top of my head...
even older was the htc hd2 ..(highly linux hackable) from 2009 (if memory serves...) with no qwerty...not sayin' the specs were any better...but she was one hackable device...(think the xperia is little closer to what we would want anyway...so just dismiss my trip down memory lane...)

theonelaw

2016-01-05, 02:40

But only a five hour battery life... too short for me, I fear.
true, but:

June is a very long time to wait, a lot could happen meanwhile.
but
- if it actually occurs
- then 2 batteries can run it for 10 hours.

Hacking batteries and chargers requires a little thought,
but infinitely easier than hacking
baytrail or android cr@pware sideload-circus events.

endsormeans

2016-01-05, 06:21

hahahaa
found this...
http://www.strangehorizons.com/2004/20040405/badger.shtml
smart(dead)badger (how smart was he then?...hmm..) running linux
wonder if it can be adapted for dead raccoon ...
don't have badgers here...

endsormeans

2016-01-05, 06:38

hm...a smart with qwerty keyboard ...since 2009...

Motorolla-
Photon Q 4G LTE,
Droid 5,
Droid 4,
Droid Pro,
Flipside

Samsung-
Captivate Glide,
Galaxy Pro,
ATIV Q (convert-tablet-esque beastly gutsy b-tard, no gps tho),
Stratosphere I405 4G,

Sony-
Xperia Pro

Blackberry-
Bold 9930 / Bold 9900 ,
q10

LG-
Enact,
Mach,
Optimus F3Q,
Xpression C395

HTC-
Desire Z,
hd2 (old ..but epic for it's hackability ..the galaxy pro being another with such promise..)

Dell-
Venue Pro

there are a few "possibles" ...
There aren't a ton of qwerty keyboard smarts out there anymore...being produced anyhow...making the hunt pretty easy....
actually digging and seeing how they stack up against what is needed is another matter.
Some here would admirably run linux...some may not be suitable...research is required..
But I think throwing every qwerty-keyboarded unit into the fire of scrutiny is a good idea...

I'm sure I'm missing some...
anyone comes up with a new one for interrogation...
toss it in this thread for scrutiny...

but running x ...welly-well-well...that is another matter.
Frankly ..I suggest getting an n800, n810 or possibly an n900...
I hear they do x purdy good. :D (or wait for the neo..or get the whole nxx0 set now with boxtops from your favourite breakfast cereal! don't delay!...send in today!....)

So we got a list...
and so now...
by educated (I'm assuming everyone in our forum is pretty much that)
and illuminated peoples of learning such as we... account ourselves ...
let's tear them apart ...
one by one...
which ones are not suitable...
and which ones make the required grade...(if by a hair ...or by leaps and bounds)...
and throw in..brief explanations why "_ _ _ _" is a good choice...
and we can as an informed group ..
vote and..
separate wheat from chaff...
and get a short-short list of viables.

sicelo

2016-01-05, 07:05

...
- the biggest one: really outdated browser, fennec is far beyond everyday-usable

By the way, one of the things that made fennec suck for me was the fact it brought system to a grinding halt.

In part, this is caused by new tabs, as for some reason (at least in my case) fennec preferred creating new tabs for almost every new link you enter. After I changed the behavior in about:config, I must say it is much more usable and does not 'freeze' device anymore, unless of course I'm opening a complex page.

marmistrz

2016-01-05, 07:20

@endsormeans: yep, taking any hw kbd device into account is a good idea.

kureyon

2016-01-06, 09:19

Thanks. I have avoided this route, because I assumed that even with a gnu/linux chroot, I'd still be unable to use it as an X11 server. Am I wrong about that? Does installing a gnu/linux chroot allow X11 apps to display on an Android device?

I have Linux Deploy on my (rooted) tablet and have debian installed on it. There are 3 choices for display:

VNC
X Window System
Frame Buffer

I've only really used the VNC option (which means you also need to install a VNC client as well). You can run a full desktop (mine boots into LXDE) and practically all the programs that Debian provides. Since my tablet only has 1GB ram (and slow by today's standards) I don't really do much with that debian installation, but I have installed and run stuff like the Gimp, Battle for Wesnoth, LibreOffice, etc. It's obviously not as good and efficient as being able to run linux natively on the tablet but it is surprisingly usable on the occasions that I need it. Plus my tablet being one of the Asus Transformers with a docking keyboard and touchpad makes the user experience a whole lot better.

javispedro

2016-01-06, 12:49

It's obviously not as good and efficient as being able to run linux natively on the tablet but it is surprisingly usable on the occasions that I need it.

But the important question here is: why is it not as good and efficient as running Linux natively?

Is it RAM? Because at some point that stops being a problem. With phones now regularly having 4GB of RAM, soon we will reach a similar-to-desktop situation where my entire operating system fits in RAM, and all the applications I use on L3 cache...

Is it 3D acceleration? That is not only fixable, but also most other "Linux native" mobile environments have the same problem.

Is it integration with the host operating system, or because you actually prefer it over the host environment? That's the only reason I currently have for preferring a native Linux environment, but even I myself admit I don't see this idea flying with many people.

railroadmaster

2016-01-06, 16:25

The best choice at this point is a portable x86 device and running a regular linux distro on it. Make sure it has a 64 bit efi and that drivers are well suppprted. If it is an older device make sure it doesn't have a gma 500. There are internet threads showing how it can be done. I recommend a newer x5 based device.

endsormeans

2016-01-06, 16:27

list device possibilities please.
Personally I am keen on x86 ...(keepin it simple ..keepin it real...)

On this splinter topic...
samsung is working on the possibility of a smart with the new intel running dual full blown operating systems...
very interesting since part of their concept is doing this...
http://static.cdn-seekingalpha.com/uploads/2015/5/19553521_14327303941842_0.png
from here..
http://seekingalpha.com/article/3214416-intel-powered-dual-os-windows-android-smartphones-are-coming

but that concept is "coming"...
what is there currently on the market that has the "oomph" to run full distros in the palm of the hand?
I would like to see a list of viables...

endsormeans

2016-01-06, 17:14

htc hd2 and some samsung galaxy phones are the only ones to my knowledge (limited as it is) that run 64 bit ...currently....
as aged as the htc hd2 is...
it's still a beast.
what did it run again?...
win 7 8
ubuntu
meego (if it could run meego then this device is def. something to look at..who knows ...perhaps nemo then may work...doubtful sailfish...perhaps freemantle will work when it is done...hhmmm...if meego ran on it...then mer?...possibly?...)
and as far as droid goes...I heard months and months ago that someone got lollipop to run on the hd2...
beasty is unkillable...it keeps coming back from the bloody grave...
and even though it is as old as the n900...
the hd2 is STILL a wanted and coveted device...

debernardis

2016-01-07, 15:19

I think this would be great. Almost ideal, since we'd have real Adroid available along with our beloved Maemo, and if we got it to work once, it would probably be possible to port it fairly quickly to new Android devices. But how do we get X11 to work so that the Maemo UI will work?

Sorry for late answering. There is X on Android:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=x.org.server

and you can also use vnc if you like to.

Is there a package for Maemo ui for Ubuntu or Debian? I could try it on my setup on my Android device.

endsormeans

2016-01-07, 16:56

I doubt it would be for maemo5
It would likely be for maemo4
hildon to gnome was the last I heard of work being done on it...
https://wiki.gnome.org/Attic/Hildon/Building
UME is another alternative...
https://web.archive.org/web/20070613133817/http://proddingthe.net/book/2/1/
Moblin is prolly more current than the preceeding :D
I think meego is prolly the last to recently run on "other" handheld devices than maemo...
there is this for buntu...
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hildon-desktop-for-ubuntu
a little old...(2007-ish)
there is this for debian!
aha! little more current...squeezy...
https://packages.debian.org/squeeze/hildon-desktop
yet again I think it is more of an earlier maemo desktop than maemo5 though...

Maemo5.. even Maemo4... would be fine...but earlier?...
naw...too rough..for the desired outcome.

Best bet is...
you could pilfer moises maemo5 work for what is needed...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuIrRoRPufc

There is of course another option I just thought of...
rip the ui out of the latest linpus lite...
That definitely comes closest to our ui....
very touch friendly...
has the maem-esque look and feel...
based off a very very modified version of cinnamon (i think) and moblin 2 originally...
meant for big or small screen...
Linpus lite is a sparse os with not alot of software (compared to some os's)...
but the build structure of it's ui...it's desktop environment is...(what's good words here)...familiar and cozy...yeah...
that alone makes it into my "odd-ball" favourite distro pile short list..
I like to use now and again...

I have a small folder of pertinent urls and files on this topic..
I do not believe age being a factor since the wealth of experience from each of the attempted or successful methods has value...
Never know when something old ends up having validity in the present....

As far as course of direction to take considering the desired outcome....welllll....that is the question ...
As far as windows phone, iphone, even android...I am COMPLETELY ignorant of the respective operating systems ...never having desired to have (in the past) one....I never bothered to learn...as far as distros for handheld...it has been maemo based for me from day one...
so I am quite clueless pertaining to what could, would or should run on any of those devices...
Now...
get maemo running on android ...properly....
and I will rethink my philo.
pick up a competitive device and continue on quite merrily...
Come to think of it...
if maemo ends up running on droid....
think of the number of android converts we could get :D....
...

Dave999

2016-01-07, 17:57

what about Surface Pro and OS of your choice. Might be a bit big but plenty powerful.

Copernicus

2016-01-07, 18:10

what about Surface Pro and OS of your choice. Might be a bit big but plenty powerful.

My problem is that I can't see myself using the Surface Pro as anything other than a laptop. I can just imagine walking down an aisle of a grocery store and whipping out my Surface Pro to run a quick Google search. :) The thing is just too big to carry around while you're doing something else. You kind of need to be sitting down to use it comfortably, and in that case, there's no reason not to attach a keyboard to it...

nokiabot

2016-01-07, 18:47

My problem is that I can't see myself using the Surface Pro as anything other than a laptop. I can just imagine walking down an aisle of a grocery store and whipping out my Surface Pro to run a quick Google search. :) The thing is just too big to carry around while you're doing something else. You kind of need to be sitting down to use it comfortably, and in that case, there's no reason not to attach a keyboard to it...

yes yes yes
i sold my tablet for the same reason only thing it did properly is brousing in the bus but then it caught too much attention

actualy daily like two people will ask about my n900 as whats that and then woo and wah people confuse it toca camera some say its like a computer i was done sold my tablet and have to face less people most curious ones even open the terminal and type random sith to see if is linux one even tried rm/rf god saved me as he typed it incorrectly and said ha ha its a fake i saw the screen and my heart stopped like disc brakes i said its a chineese clone and speeded out of his sight as fast as i could and that happend today

so one big question how to block critical stuff in n900 that can do serious damage ?

endsormeans

2016-01-07, 19:00

A big 3 foot sign attached to your n900 saying...
"If this isn't your personal property....Keep your bloody mitts off"
...
or...
more discreetly....
walk around with a car battery and jumper cables in your carry-on bag and hook them up to your device while not in use...
personally electrified anti-theft...

I let people touch my dog,
my cat,
hell...my "junk" ...
EVER before they touch one of my nxx0's...

I don't care if I hurt their feelings when they say "lemme see that for a sec. .." and I say piss off...
I don't care if they are dying in front of me...
Nobody get's their greasies on my nxx0 for any reason...
I don't ask to see someones personal info, their credit cards, their bank statements, their personal and business contacts, their work,...the list goes on...
asking to play with my daily or work machines is very personal...and very dangerous...in many ways...
so nope...
not happening...

friends want to see cool stuff... I ..myself...personally show them..without letting go of the device for an instant...
or I give them a back-up beater to play with...
Never my own nxx0's...

endsormeans

2016-01-07, 19:08

But back to the issue...
maem-esque ui on android...

Personally I think the way to go that has fewest hassles trying to get it to function is...
I'd dissect linpus lite.
best suggestion...
it is as current a running ...functioning... example as it gets...

marmistrz

2016-01-07, 19:50

endsormeans

2016-01-07, 19:55

I agree with you completely on debian running on handheld...
I just like the desktop environment .....the surface ..the skin of maemo...or something similar....meego-ish..nemo-ish..in look...on top of debian...is all.
the underlying guts I'd prefer to be debian...over gentoo...or any other distro...frankly...

javispedro

2016-01-07, 21:56

No.

Maemeque interface on Android is NOT the way to go. I don't want a crippled OS.

The way to go is to run a real Linux distro (e.g. Debian/Gentoo) on some device. Need Haskell? Apt-get it. Need OCaml? Need Brain****? Need a fully fledged source code editor or a modern CAS? It's there for you to install (Debian) or compile from source (Gentoo)

Bad examples, much like the performance requirement above.

For example, you can run apt-get install on a chroot on top on Android. I use emerge on my Jolla.

(In fact, I use a RPI2 to build Gentoo binary packages for the Jolla. Anything graphical is painful though, but that's mostly because almost no one uses Gentoo for ARM).

And also as in the previous case, the only thing I can thing that won't work is "host integration", i.e. installing NetworkManager on the chroot will not replace the host's network manager. But other than freaks like me, who may want that?

kureyon

2016-01-08, 00:38

But the important question here is: why is it not as good and efficient as running Linux natively?Any non-native solution will incur some inefficiency and consume more resources.

Is it RAM? Because at some point that stops being a problem.Yes and yes. But in my case I only have 1GB of ram. I believe Linux Deploy is set to stay in memory so that android's memory management doesn't terminate it so at least it won't kill your linux system and lose whatever you was working on.

Is it 3D acceleration? That is not only fixable, but also most other "Linux native" mobile environments have the same problem.At this point in time I'm not sure what 3D acceleration is good for on a Linux system other than to provide fancy desktop effects.

Is it integration with the host operating systemThe integration is pretty well done, considering. You can also configure it to autostart the linux environment on android bootup.

or because you actually prefer it over the host environment? That's the only reason I currently have for preferring a native Linux environment, but even I myself admit I don't see this idea flying with many people.
Ditto here, saves having to worry about google's spyware as well.

Ken-Young

2016-01-08, 01:43

what about Surface Pro and OS of your choice. Might be a bit big but plenty powerful.

I think the Surface Pro is just too big. I want something that fits in my pocket.

theonelaw

2016-01-08, 03:36

..., the only thing I can thing that won't work is "host integration", i.e. installing NetworkManager on the chroot will not replace the host's network manager. But other than freaks like me, who may want that?
Just a question - if you are dependent upon the hosts network manager does this compromise security ?

Would it defy VPN management ?
Ubuntu does exactly that:
I have discovered that VPN breaks inside Ubuntu Touch unless you wrap the system inside a cocoon.
This is probably why the Ubuntu Touch system has -zero- VPN solutions available for installation.
Fixable - but the hazards are very real.

I am inside a rising storm of governmental internet blockage
and not having immediate direct control of what my connection is doing is,
right now - very annoying, later - possibly very dangerous.

Having some stray javascript dialing home to somewhere local authorities
regard as a 'national security issue' could cost you your head in the wrong jurisdictions.
For some oblivious Android user this is not a problem to plead ignorance about.
For people like us carrying modified communications gear
the glimmering stares of suspicion may accept no amount of reasoning.

[side note - back in the early 90's I recall getting security called on me for simply showing up in a Toshiba plant to ask how to wire my brand new mobile handset for rs232 so I could hack faxes over it. The Toshiba management grilled me for over an hour in a locked room. Eventually they calmed down and let me go, but they were not interested in me being able to hack the device they sold me. It was a both a local government issue and a corporate security issue.
Of course they made it onto my do-not-buy list.]

endsormeans

2016-01-08, 03:50

Oh...
I hearda you...theonelaw...
you're THAT GUY...
:D

Naw actually never heard anything....
jeez man where you live that it is that dangerous?
crap man...
time to move...
here where I live...
they could care less...
for now anyway....
who knows about the future eh?..

www.rzr.online.fr

2016-01-08, 06:18

Any revelations at CES2016 on that topic ?

pichlo

2016-01-08, 07:28

AThe integration is pretty well done, considering. You can also configure it to autostart the linux environment on android bootup.

I may be wrong but I think javispero meant not so much how well the integration is done but that it is done at all. An integration with the host OS means an additional layer for most things plus sharing resources between the two OSes. That is inherently less efficient than one IS having an exclusive access.

Android_808

2016-01-08, 07:55

how about something like a Asus Zenphone 2 as a starting point as IIRC it uses an atom processor.

For UI, what about following the Jolla libhybris route to get wayland and then making uses of libmutter. Solus/Budgie are using it for their desktop to provide an alternative to gnome-shell. The code required from to get a custom libmutter WM running is quite small. I took a look a while back as an alternative to hildon-desktop/libmatchbox2 combination for GTK3.

marmistrz

2016-01-08, 08:30

javispedro

2016-01-08, 09:25

Any non-native solution will incur some inefficiency and consume more resources.
Only RAM, not much, and if you use swap it will be mostly swapped out immediately as long as you don't use it.

javispedro

2016-01-08, 09:31

Just a question - if you are dependent upon the hosts network manager does this compromise security ?

Yes, that too. But I was thinking more of e.g. OK now I have Python,Haskell,GCC6 or whatever installed on the Chroot, and that solves part o the problems that I have with "mobile" distros, but the fact that I'm doing it inside a chroot still means (for ex.):
- I cannot use my nicely configured/patched VPN/Wi-Fi/Ethernet/BT setup that I use on my normal Linux distro.
- I cannot use the D-Bus scripts that control volume/pair Bluetooth devices/make phone calls/configure the modem/change screen resolution/calibrate the stylus that I use on my Gentoo host
- I cannot directly use some of the hardware features that I have in the normal Linux way (e.g. V4L, video out, USB gadget...).
- Can I install daemons easily?
- Separation between host and chroot filesysetm, /homes, etc. (but this is low priority).

These seem ridiculous , but are the only reasons that prevent me from fully adopting the "Gentoo chroot in Android/Jolla" approach.

I may be wrong but I think javispero meant not so much how well the integration is done but that it is done at all. An integration with the host OS means an additional layer for most things plus sharing resources between the two OSes. That is inherently less efficient than one IS having an exclusive access.

But it is not "less efficient" in terms of machine efficiency, because actually it's exactly as efficient.

Rather, it's inefficient in terms of the time I sill need to waste in order to battle the host system, even if I inside the chroot I'm still using Gentoo/whatever, for the reasons above.

mscion

2016-01-08, 12:59

I think the Surface Pro is just too big. I want something that fits in my pocket.

Would this be a good candidate device to put gnu/linux based OS on? The drivers are open source.

http://www.xda-developers.com/nextbits-robin-has-new-release-date-february-16/

Android_808

2016-01-08, 22:12

Zenphone: no hwkb :/
Mutter/Muffin are WM, h-d is a DE. Do you want to leave h-d and just change the WM?

Sort of. Idea was to change the matchbox2 part over to Mutter and rebuild hildon-desktop on top of that. As it is now, h-d is part of several components needed to get the full DE. h-d is responsible for the menus, transitions, wm. h-home does the desktop widgets, customisation etc. h-status-menu pretty self explanatory.

Anyway, it's just idea at the moment. I have a small test app that just initializes mutter and display a blank screen to see how it works. Still working on porting the existing hildon* apps to GTK3 but I've taken a short break to do some non computing related projects.

endsormeans

2016-01-08, 22:24

You pull it off ...
you are my new hero of the week man...

smoku

2016-01-08, 22:35

Idea was to change the matchbox2 part over to Mutter and rebuild hildon-desktop on top of that. [...] Still working on porting the existing hildon* apps to GTK3 but I've taken a short break to do some non computing related projects.

Check 'gtk3' branches in https://github.com/orgs/Cordia repos.

I even got it pretty much working:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK_hwhNe4g8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxG40LvV9A4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbBmfqQrsFg

Ken-Young

2016-01-08, 23:29

Would this be a good candidate device to put gnu/linux based OS on? The drivers are open source.

http://www.xda-developers.com/nextbits-robin-has-new-release-date-february-16/

Is that really any better than a Nexus phone?

velox

2016-01-09, 17:47

Is that really any better than a Nexus phone?
For some People it might as they really dislike giving money to huge companies in general or Google specifically.
I don't think there'll be many advantages hardware-wise (plus smaller user base). But you never know and I appreciated reading about it. A manufacturer being OK with flashing stuff on it under warranty certainly is a good thing, especially with drivers available. Some day installing gnu/linux on phones will be just like on PCs. (One can still dream, right?)

pythoneye2

2016-01-09, 17:53

Intel x86 N900 co computer side
Self made Intel edison seems to be faster and smaller than a n900 or a pi.
It can run a ubilinux http://www.emutexlabs.com/ubilinux. (debian "Wheezy", on 3.10 kernel).
(But self made self powered is not easy due to several design flaws.
https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/sparkfun-blocks-for-intel-edison---battery-block/using-the-battery-block and slow charging times http://www.helios.de/heliosapp/edison/)

If you want a more powerful device you can take an
Intel compute stick (sold with Ubuntu) and a a large powerbank battery.
Someone flashed ubuntu even on the larger 2 GB Windows version.
If you up for flashing and a little porting challenge you can try the more stylish
Ainol Mini PC:
http://www.ainol-novo.com/ainol-mini-pc-black.html
It seems it is just a compute stick with a large powerbank.
or [Voyo (similar):
http://www.cnx-software.com/2015/02/10/intel-atom-z3735f-based-voyo-mini-pc-features-64gb-storage-a-10000-mah-battery/]

Could be a great expansion for the a N900. Where you "tether" your network, keyboard and display and leave the "big" server in your pocket.

But they all need some tinkering on the software side or even hardware side and even worse are Intels :(

(Maybe invest 800 Euro in porting ubuntu to a ainol or voyo)

Or build your own based on a fast arm (raxda, odroid, olimex) som and a large powerbank.

Or a more geeky zynq device (arm cortex a9 and fpga)
https://wiki.trenz-electronic.de/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=20612048
sadly only 64mb ram and not released yet..

jurop88

2016-01-09, 18:26

I am in a similar situation as the thread's OP, looking for a GNU/linux portable machine. For me telephony functions are mandatory since I would like to avoid to carry two different devices for 'quick' tasks on the move and I need my laptop for heavy computations, bringing to three the number of devices always with me.
Currently I am looking at the Pyra with 3/4G module wondering if this will work fine with a BT headset as a mobile phone. Neo900 is interesting as well but I am afraid an updated browser will be a dream there as well, specially due to not enough horse-power and that is the biggest concern for which I still did not byte the bullet. Having a 'free' phone is really tempting, though.

I recently revamped my n900 after two years on Windows Phone because of taskwarrior, which I found great on the desktop (on the laptop I use both Linux and W10->cygwin) and perfectly suited to my workflow after two years looking for a good 'ToDo' app. Succesfully compiled for my N900, I have now a great tool acting as my own agenda and my phone at the same time. On n900 I am missing only a 'real' offline navigator application and an up-to-date browser, otherwise there will really not be any drawbacks for my use case. Do not forget we are talking about a 7 years old phone, now! What a great device the Nokia team designed...

BTW from a 'work' point of view I admit I found WP8 being a great device/system. The Surface is a great device as well, my wife being less geeky than me is going very well with a WP+Surface combo.

smoku

2016-01-09, 19:43

GPD XD (http://www.gpd.hk/products.asp?selectclassid=017001&id=1299) could be a cheap replacement for OpenPandora/Pyra. (Putting a Mer/libhybris on)
http://domadis.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/tablet-pc-gpd-xd.png

If only they would release the kernel source for the device.

I wonder if Amazon could be held liable of GPL violation of Linux kernel as they sell these devices (http://www.amazon.com/RK3288-Inches-Gamepad-Handheld-Console-Playstation/dp/B014F68BJ6). ;-)

t-b

2016-01-09, 19:55

On n900 I am missing only a 'real' offline navigator application and an up-to-date browser, otherwise there will really not be any drawbacks for my use case. Do not forget we are talking about a 7 years old phone, now! What a great device the Nokia team designed...

Modrana is great and provides good (semi-offline) navigation on the N900. Who knows maybe MartinK will be able to support fully offline navigation one day as well. Until then I am glad with what we have - without Modrana the N900 would be definitely be a lot less interesting.
It is possible to use an up-to-date browser with Easy Debian - terribly slow but nevertheless it can be a life safer.

t-b

2016-01-09, 19:59

GPD XD (http://www.gpd.hk/products.asp?selectclassid=017001&id=1299) could be a cheap replacement for OpenPandora/Pyra.

One of the most important 'features' of the Pyra/Pandora is the keyboard. This could replace a PSP / NDS but not a Pandora/Pyra.

Android_808

2016-01-09, 21:55

Check 'gtk3' branches in https://github.com/orgs/Cordia repos.

I even got it pretty much working:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK_hwhNe4g8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxG40LvV9A4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbBmfqQrsFg

Already done. Thank you anyway.

Forked Cordia gtk3 branches. Updated most of libhildon to 3.14. hildon-desktop partially rebased on 3.14 and runs but is a little glitchy from clutter-1.2x work. The animation code has been depreciated and replaced at least twice and there's not a lot of up to date examples.

Started ripping out gconf in some apps. Anything else is ported from cssu sources (hildon-home, status-menu).

pythoneye2

2016-01-09, 23:30

Another Intel Bay Trail with battery but running Ubuntu 14.04
No Sound yet? but looks promising
http://liliputing.com/2015/05/cloudsto-x86-nano-pc-is-a-tiny-desktop-with-ubuntu-linux-or-windows.html

Why dont they use the size and make a small keyboard with a trackpad on top so you have a ubuntu pc with any mobile or tablet?,
not just with the n900.

Ken-Young

2016-01-10, 00:20

Ken-Young

2016-01-10, 00:26

pythoneye2

2016-01-10, 00:35

This is nice, but hardly an N900 replacement - it has no display!

The n900 has a keyboard and a "display" and wifi (vnc).
I guess you want to carry the best phone in the world anyway ;) which has wifi too!

Nothing will replace a n900 at the moment!

For me its too big and i dont like Intel.

theonelaw

2016-01-10, 03:58

This is nice, but hardly an N900 replacement - it has no display!

maybe add one resistive touch screen (http://www.lilliputuk.com/monitors/hdmi/669gl/) ?

Its a bay trail and probably uses Broadcom chips (https://www.google.com/search?q=Broadcom+sh?t&gws_rd=ssl#q=Broadcom+sh?t&tbs=qdr:y), which means you won't catch me going anywhere near it.... :D

My take on the biggest hurdle with all of this is the keyboard.
I have a pile of those micro wireless and bluetooth keyboards
which I have tested and used,
but to be keenly usable they must be available for any boot menus - which precludes bluetooth.
This means wiring one of their adapters in permanently,
which should not be all that difficult.

Lose the Baytrail and Broadcom failures and this might be a path...

t-b

2016-01-10, 10:56

XD might release a handheld with keyboard though. They are currently investigating and asking for input from users. I still prefer Pyra because of the great customer support from Micheal and the Pyra/Pandora community. This can become serious competition for the Pyra though, pretty sure XD will be a lot cheaper.

SOC: Intel X5-Z8500
Storage: 32bG/64Gb
Ram: 4Gb

Latest concept here (https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/gpd-is-going-to-release-an-x86-console-palmtop-computer.76762/page-6#post-1363393)

pythoneye2

2016-01-10, 15:15

I doesnt understand why you didnt manage to get X running on Ubuntu touch:

I guess Xmer is Xmir and you failed somehow.
I always thought X should always be possible at least through vnc?
(https://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1460198&postcount=3)

If i consider your skillset
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1384592&postcount=83
and look at Orrery wiki and source code (looks nice) and your financial position i wonder how can they make you not succeed? dirty details please!

Cant you just pay yourself(*) to get "easy debian" working on Ubuntu touch? Assuming you can still live with Ubuntu touch on Nexus5 [and considering software>hardware in gnu/linux]

(*) or someone else

gerbick

2016-01-10, 16:26

This thread has shown me that there is a lot of incomplete options, but many more than I would have suspected.

Ken-Young

2016-01-11, 03:20

[...]
If i consider your skillset
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1384592&postcount=83
and look at Orrery wiki and source code (looks nice) and your financial position i wonder how can they make you not succeed? dirty details please!
[...]

Thanks for the very kind words, but a shudder goes down my spine every time I hear someone has looked at my orrery code! I consider it to be a mess - very poor (actually, almost no) separation of the UI code from the calculations code, for example. There is also stuff in there that was intended to make performance tolerable for Openmoko phones, which does not make sense for more modern devices and should be stripped out.

Regarding your real question, I guess I've been both lazy and poorly informed. For example, I thought that Wayland would provide the sort of effortless X11 compatibility one gets on Mac OS X. It looks like that is not the case. The thing I personally need *most* is X11 server mode on my handheld, displaying for a remote client. It doesn't look to me like that's available either with SailfishOS or Ubuntu Touch. For those OSs it looks like X11 capability, at best, supports local X11 clients. And there are these little caveats like "input doesn't work", etc., which make a big difference to me. Using VNC is much more cumbersome than having a real X11 server, and some of the remote machines I work with are headless.

I guess my best course is to wait for Pyra. If both my n900s (and any neo900 that I get my hands on) die before Pyras ship, my best course might then be to try to get SailfishOS running on a Nexus 5 (or whatever is the best "supported" hardware at that time) and try to strip out Wayland and substitute X11.

The fragmentation of Linux display managers into X11, Surfaceflinger, Wayland and Mir is certainly a grim development. I know X11 is full of ancient cruft and providing full X11 server compatibility involves supporting crazy things like its old, ugly pixel fonts, but given Android's huge market share, I think Jolla and Ubuntu should have just gone with Surfaceflinger.

The real irony is that if Apple were to implement the X11 capability in iOS that they provide in Mac OS X, my best choice for managing remote Linux servers would be an iPhone!

gerbick

2016-01-11, 03:37

The real irony is that if Apple were to implement the X11 capability in iOS that they provide in Mac OS X, my best choice for managing remote Linux servers would be an iPhone!

That is ironic but very interesting.

aegis

2016-01-11, 09:47

The real irony is that if Apple were to implement the X11 capability in iOS that they provide in Mac OS X, my best choice for managing remote Linux servers would be an iPhone!

Apple haven't provided X11 support in OSX for some time now. The last X11.app was OSX 10.7.

It's now a separate open source project as XQuartz of which Apple do contribute to but it's pretty clear they don't think it's that important. There's no support for retina displays for instance.

The chances of them ever supporting iOS would be approaching zero.

IME it's never been that great on OSX even when they did support it fully. It was more of a hangover from NeXT.

Feathers McGraw

2016-01-11, 10:10

Apple haven't provided X11 support in OSX for some time now. The last X11.app was OSX 10.7.

Is this related to them dropping OpenGL? I've just started learning about it and was quite surprised to read that they don't support the newer OpenGL standards. Shame, because otherwise Qt + OpenGL would be a great way to develop apps that run nicely on all 3 platforms.

Ken-Young

2016-01-11, 11:42

Apple haven't provided X11 support in OSX for some time now. The last X11.app was OSX 10.7.

It's now a separate open source project as XQuartz of which Apple do contribute to but it's pretty clear they don't think it's that important. There's no support for retina displays for instance.

The chances of them ever supporting iOS would be approaching zero.

IME it's never been that great on OSX even when they did support it fully. It was more of a hangover from NeXT.

I certainly didn't seriously think Apple would ever bring X11 support to iOS. I was just pointing out how ironic it is that X11-compatibility "just works" in Mac OS X, while X11 works poorly at best (after additional software is loaded, and scripts are written) under Wayland or Mir, despite official claims that these display managers would provide X11 compatibility.

I was unaware Mac OS X did not support X11 on retina displays. I'd better take care of my ageing Macbook!

aegis

2016-01-11, 13:14

Is this related to them dropping OpenGL? I've just started learning about it and was quite surprised to read that they don't support the newer OpenGL standards. Shame, because otherwise Qt + OpenGL would be a great way to develop apps that run nicely on all 3 platforms.

I don't think it's related. They dropped X11 much earlier.

They'd rather you used Metal. It's available on iOS and OSX and although there's often significant performance reasons to use it over OpenGL, the upshot is you're then developing to an Apple only API and not supporting Android.

I was unaware Mac OS X did not support X11 on retina displays. I'd better take care of my ageing Macbook!

XQuartz pixel doubles rather than take advantage of the higher dpi. ie. it works but next to a Mac app on the same screen it looks like blurry bitmapped crap.

edit: I only know this because last week I needed the statistics package 'R' which is an X11 app on the Mac. I then realised I'd not installed X11 on my Mac since I bought it in 2012. I've used CDs more often.

pythoneye2

2016-01-11, 15:25

I still dont see why (the lowest common denominator)
running a "headless" X11 server running on your phone with a VNC display driver and a VNC input driver [which you locally connect to via a vnc client] shouldnot work.
It is not x11 or vnc it is: X11 via vnc.
Sure it is a overhead going through kind of framebuffer driver and local network but the VNC "last mile" gives you also input and display translation [from touchscreen to rightmouse click (+) drag and drop, zooming] which are sometimes needed for non fingerfriendly X11 applications.
[Or can you rebind the rightclick drag and drop gesture to shift + drag and drop on any open gui toolkit? Im hoping for emacs2020.]

This is done on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfMLzlki9XE but the connection vnc server to vnc client is over wifi and not locally.
[But it shouldnt be laggy anyway, except he has a very very very bad wifi connection]

railroadmaster

2016-01-11, 16:50

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Ubuntu-Touch-Phone-XMir-Apps

debernardis

2016-01-11, 18:50

Vnc to X on chroot on modern android devices isn't laggy at all. And, as I reported previously, X is available too without the need of vnc.

MINKIN2

2016-01-11, 22:48

Anyone wanting a project? https://www.youtube.com/v/L75YTcEetkw

javispedro

2016-01-11, 22:54

Regarding your real question, I guess I've been both lazy and poorly informed. For example, I thought that Wayland would provide the sort of effortless X11 compatibility one gets on Mac OS X.
You'll need to elaborate on that.

"Effortless"? Sure.

"Integrated with the host window manager, clipboard, etc."? Most probably not.

The thing I personally need *most* is X11 server mode on my handheld, displaying for a remote client. It doesn't look to me like that's available either with SailfishOS or Ubuntu Touch.
Simple "X11-in-a-window" is _trivial_. I don't know what the hell you're talking about since by now you've already had examples of X11 programs in both Sailfish and Ubuntu Touch.

For those OSs it looks like X11 capability, at best, supports local X11 clients.
What exactly did you make believe that? :confused:

And there are these little caveats like "input doesn't work", etc., which make a big difference to me.

Ah, welcome to the wonderful world of open source!

If you're thinking Xwayland for sailfish, the primary reason touchscreen input does not work is that I find touchscreen support useless without a stylus and thus I didn't give it a second thought. Keyboard and mouse work quite OK.

Using VNC is much more cumbersome than having a real X11 server, and some of the remote machines I work with are headless.

For the "X11-in-a-window" setup, no, not really. The amount of complexity is the same and there's no difference in functionality. And what's the problem with headless? In fact, Xvnc would do wonders here?

I guess my best course is to wait for Pyra. If both my n900s (and any neo900 that I get my hands on) die before Pyras ship, my best course might then be to try to get SailfishOS running on a Nexus 5 (or whatever is the best "supported" hardware at that time) and try to strip out Wayland and substitute X11.
Ah, so if you've used regular X11 desktop programs on Maemo then you're already used to the intricacies of poor window manager integration, and most probably you're already using Xephyr. Is that the case?

If so, you fall straight into the "X11-in-a-window" use case which is trivial. Vnc, Xsdl, Xwayland all will successfully implement this on almost any device you can think of.

The "other" use case, which includes integration with Hildon as window manager, is more complicated, and most probably irreproducible on the Jolla. Some "un-hildonized" programs are still somewhat usable under Hildon; but the number is greatly reduced under Harmattan or Jolla.

The fragmentation of Linux display managers into X11, Surfaceflinger, Wayland and Mir is certainly a grim development. I know X11 is full of ancient cruft and providing full X11 server compatibility involves supporting crazy things like its old, ugly pixel fonts, but given Android's huge market share, I think Jolla and Ubuntu should have just gone with Surfaceflinger.
And Wayland itself is also hugely fragmented. I personally will stuck with X11 on my desktop as long as I can.

But Surfaceflinger? WHY?

The real irony is that if Apple were to implement the X11 capability in iOS that they provide in Mac OS X, my best choice for managing remote Linux servers would be an iPhone!
The iPhone already supports X11 as good as any other device.

You're making this stuff much more complicated than it is.

theonelaw

2016-01-12, 02:51

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Ubuntu-Touch-Phone-XMir-Apps
Considering I have a BQ E5 in my pocket to test this on,
this would be astonishing news.
But when I follow the links it dribbles off into androidland
and is a thousand tweaks down a road of unfathomable murk.
I wish those devs well but
judging from the locked garden philosophy inside the Ubuntu stockade
this kind of development will never see the light of day.
They _rabidly_ lock down almost anything
that allows the user to type or act upon content or application settings in the device.
I checked the 'HELP' application yesterday to see what was inside, and it was embarrassing.
The nature of the way it is all composed is
to merely describe how to manage the display and zero anything else.

By far, almost 95% of all the apps on Ubuntu Touch are simply
what I call webfarts which are just glorified webpages stripped down and focused on.
There are very few application of any sort like LibreOffice.

This is so _not_ happening,
which for a distro originally arising directly from linux
is a sad statement on the human condition.

theonelaw

2016-01-12, 06:06

Anyone wanting a project? https://www.youtube.com/v/L75YTcEetkw

This is very re-inspiring. ("Awesome" needs to be retired)

I have been testing these minikeyboards and can
say this - make certain you can do CTRL-ALT-F#
some of these keyboards need a Fn keypress
and it makes going to console a genuine PITB.

Bluetooth is useless until the OS has loaded.
(I still use it for silly things though)

pythoneye2

2016-01-19, 00:54

1GHz ARM Dual-Core Cortex-A7 pocket "server" running debian jessy on 3.4.105+ (no display).
https://getocean.io/

Ken-Young

2016-01-19, 03:00

linuxunux

2016-01-19, 05:44

Hi Ken, I am thinking along your lines, I got a GSM board that I was going to try and interface with.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B015DVKRBM?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00

pythoneye2

2016-01-19, 17:52

For what it's worth, I tried powering a friend's Raspberry Pi B+ with a 1080p touch display and USB keyboard using a 12,000 mAH battery. It ran for 19 hours 50 minutes, with the screen backlight on for about an hour of that time. Not too bad.

For comparison N900 consumes 250 mAh on md5sum, that would give you around 48h on 12000mah.
If you also consider there is no idle powermanagement on the pi yet, i wouldnt attach a battery to any of the pis.

Ken-Young

2016-01-19, 18:15

[...]
If you also consider there is no idle powermanagement on the pi yet, i wouldnt attach a battery to any of the pis.

I was surprised the battery operated Pi did as well as it did. If my N900s both die, and the neo900, and Pyra fail to materialize, I think for my usecase I could get along with a battery operated Pi. Just barely... I've gotta say the 7", 1080p display on the Pi was beautiful. And a 12,000 mAH battery isn't too terribly big.

theonelaw

2016-01-20, 03:08

I was surprised the battery operated Pi did as well as it did. If my N900s both die, and the neo900, and Pyra fail to materialize, I think for my usecase I could get along with a battery operated Pi. Just barely... I've gotta say the 7", 1080p display on the Pi was beautiful. And a 12,000 mAH battery isn't too terribly big.
Just intensely curious - about your 12000mah battery,
size and weight ? what make and model ?
Thanks

switch-hitter

2016-01-20, 08:22

This (http://news.softpedia.com/news/canonical-and-bq-to-unveil-the-first-ubuntu-tablet-that-runs-x11-apps-at-mwc-2016-499131.shtml) may be of interest.

beobachter

2016-01-20, 09:26

Anyone checked out the Sony VAIO P - 2nd gen. Lifestyle netbook? I believe it still is a decent machine and runs 15.04/10 Ubuntu MATE like a charm ...

Ken-Young

2016-01-20, 12:57

Just intensely curious - about your 12000mah battery,
size and weight ? what make and model ?
Thanks

Here's the Amazon description: "Jackery Giant+ Dual USB Portable Battery Charger & External Battery Pack for iPhone, iPad, Galaxy, and Android Smart Devices - 12,000 mAh (Orange)"

and the Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Jackery-Portable-Battery-Charger-External/dp/B00AANQLRI

4.3 x 3.1 x 0.8 inches; Weight: 10.4 ounce

It works well, and seems to be an honest 12,000 mAH, but I have no reason to believe it's better than any of many other similar products on the market.

switch-hitter

2016-01-20, 13:17

And another one (http://news.softpedia.com/news/powerful-ubuntu-tablet-is-going-on-sale-from-mj-498924.shtml) but this time with the desktop edition of Ubuntu but running on a tablet.

mscion

2016-01-31, 17:18

Pickins are pretty slim for what OP wants but, if you are willing to use an android phone the following app will let you run a lot of handy commands I associate with gnu linux based distributions. (convert, ls -ltr, vi, and so on). Root is not needed. One caveat is that it doesn't work on android versions lollipop and Marshmellow. But it works fine on, say, kitkat, and below which is found on many devices. You might consider getting a Note 3 which has pretty good performance and also has a stylus and a big enough screen so that when you use the touch keyboard (use hackers if you want tab and Ctrl C,tab at fingertips) it is roughly equivalent area wise to the N900 with keyboard slid out. It's all open source so feel free to improve!

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.dyne.zshaolin&hl=en

here are some screen shots

elastic

2016-01-31, 18:01

Anyone checked out the Sony VAIO P - 2nd gen. Lifestyle netbook? I believe it still is a decent machine and runs 15.04/10 Ubuntu MATE like a charm ...

Great little thing - had the first version for a few years worked great with xubuntu but also with Windows 7 with just a few tweaks - if it has had a touchscreen I'd never sold it - full working desktop in tablet size ... And don't call it a netbook ;-)

mscion

2016-01-31, 18:15

Great little thing - had the first version for a few years worked great with xubuntu but also with Windows 7 with just a few tweaks - if it has had a touchscreen I'd never sold it - full working desktop in tablet size ... And don't call it a netbook ;-)

Nice! Not quite a hand held but recently I posted having installed ubuntu on my Lenovo X220 Tablet. Was fun to do and I still use it!

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1496720&postcount=6

HtheB

2016-03-01, 17:03

Did anyone saw this?
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/a-laptop-fitting-in-your-pocket--2

It's a Chinese company (called GPD) who already made some Android handhelds with very good build quality. (www.gpd.hk)

I'm confident with these guys, unlike Jolla, these guys will deliver the mini laptops even if the goal is not reached.

I'm wondering if it's possible to install a linux distro on it.

https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_fill,f_auto,h_413,w_620/v1456307685/zjtrldvga7knjk0f5rdr.jpg

saponga

2016-03-01, 17:12

Indeed a very interesting form factor...

aegis

2016-03-01, 17:48

Did anyone saw this?
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/a-laptop-fitting-in-your-pocket--2

Hmm. I know gaming is their thing but that would be awesome if they just got rid of all the gamepad crap and put a bigger keyboard in there.

endsormeans

2016-03-01, 17:50

agreed.
will linux run on it .....is the question.

javispedro

2016-03-01, 18:07

Quite sure it'll run GNU/Linux, since it's a tablet SoC.

Not sure if the joystick will be a proper replacement to the Sony-like trackpoint.

marmistrz

2016-03-01, 18:37

Quite sure it'll run GNU/Linux, since it's a tablet SoC.

Not sure if the joystick will be a proper replacement to the Sony-like trackpoint.

The question is "how well". My relative has an Asus T200TA. As of Linux 4.4, the system runs like crap. Freezes, wireless overheats, some detectors cease to work after suspend. Awful!

I guess it may be a good idea to contact the people from who raise the funds. If they see the potential, maybe they'll make sure the Linux drivers exist or hire someone to write them.

t-b

2016-03-01, 21:21

Well - it is the GPD Win so they are selling it as a small Windows gaming device. Their focus will be on getting it to run Windows. They will probably not prevent anyone from using Linux on their device, but I am pretty sure they will not spend resources on it to make Linux work.

And even if they (or the community) make Linux 'work' it doesn't mean Linux software is optimized for the hardware / small screen.

pichlo

2016-03-01, 21:30

The price won't be optimised either. $300, how much of that is a Windows license? I doubt the Microsoft tax would be negative like on big desktops/laptops.

t-b

2016-03-01, 21:45

$300 is actually pretty cheap with or without Windows.. Pyra will ship with Debian and will cost almost double of that (appr. $550)

pichlo

2016-03-01, 22:05

$300 is actually pretty cheap with or without Windows.. Pyra will ship with Debian and will cost almost double of that (appr. $550)

True, but I dislike the idea knowing that it could have been even cheaper. Unlike my current laptop that was cheaper with Windows than without.

javispedro

2016-03-01, 23:02

My relative has an Asus T200TA. As of Linux 4.4, the system runs like crap. Freezes, wireless overheats, some detectors cease to work after suspend.
Meh, average Linux these days. Looks like it'll be most probably blob-free save for Wi-Fi.

And even if they (or the community) make Linux 'work' it doesn't mean Linux software is optimized for the hardware / small screen.

Where do you people come from? Since when has this been a problem on this forum? :)

What does "optimize Linux software for the hardware" mean?

The price won't be optimised either. $300, how much of that is a Windows license? I doubt the Microsoft tax would be negative like on big desktops/laptops.
Actually it is officially free for devices "with a diagonal screen size of 10.1 inches or less". Most probably, negative tax.

theonelaw

2016-03-02, 01:58

The question is "how well". My relative has an Asus T200TA. As of Linux 4.4, the system runs like crap. Freezes, wireless overheats, some detectors cease to work after suspend. Awful!

I guess it may be a good idea to contact the people from who raise the funds. If they see the potential, maybe they'll make sure the Linux drivers exist or hire someone to write them.
Actually the track record for INTEL SoC (Ship-onChit)
is so bad it suppresses interest in those things.
(there is possibly some sort of push to achieve exactly this,
discouraging interest from anyone outside the 'joe six-pack'
consumer horde)
After all the grief of trying to get several types of linux
running on several different Intel SoC systems,
I am now very hesitant to invest further effort.

Xiaomi MiPad 2 Windows 10 Intel Z8500 Quad Core 2GB 64GB
(http://www.xiaomidevice.com/xiaomi-mipad-2-windows-10.html)

This was the latest on my radar, it runs an X5,
and I could easily pull the trigger and get one,
but I already have a stack of Soc crapware,
and I see nothing to indicate linux will run on it.

Edit:
I see the post by Handaxe (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1500263) which indicates x5 may actually run linux,
assuming:

The worst scenario is that the firmware locks it into WIn10.

endsormeans

2016-03-02, 03:23

Other than "discouraging interest from anyone outside the 'joe six-pack'
consumer horde"

I agree.

but the consumer horde doesn't have a six pack....
joe average has a uni-pack, cask, tun, beer-barrel, anything but a 2, 4 or 6 pack.
joe average who doesn't have the self-discipline, drive or self-motivation to want or do or learn more...
wouldn't have the stamina, fortitude, will, or drive to achieve that 6 pack.

I'm just guessing that there are more 6-packs here at tmo than anywhere else.
and ...
y'know...
even if we don't have more six-packs as a community than joe average.

I bet if....
as a community ..
we wished to prove it by starting a little contest...
a competition..
say...
from any particular day...doing an additional 2 crunches daily ...accumulative...day 1 is 2 crunches..day 2 is 4 crunches...day 3 is 6 ...etc.
for the period of 1 year..
the fortitude and determination of the applied community would be apparent from those selfies taken and posted here a year from now.
I got a mean crunch bench in my exercise room.
use it daily...
got decent definition...
won't be much work for me...

Anyway ..back to the actual topic...
yeah I heard that intel soc is supposed to be nothing but a pain...
huh...
so after all is said and done...what are the optimal handheld (or close in size) form factor devices (hell forget even "smartphones") which can run linux decently ...
let's have a short list.
I like lists.
they're concise.

gerbick

2016-03-02, 05:09

That GPD device reminds me of the Vulcan FlipStart. Undecided if that's a good or bad thing.

Pass.

theonelaw

2016-03-02, 06:14

Did anyone saw this?
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/a-laptop-fitting-in-your-pocket--2

I'm wondering if it's possible to install a linux distro on it.

https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_fill,f_auto,h_413,w_620/v1456307685/zjtrldvga7knjk0f5rdr.jpg
I asked the question to one of the principals.
It is too close to being the right size to simply not ask.

Ariadeno

2016-03-02, 08:33

It needs a 64-bit UEFI in order to run Linux properly.

pichlo

2016-03-02, 10:18

It needs a 64-bit UEFI in order to run Linux properly.

Or a plain old BIOS :)

They do not mention UEFI but considering they use Intel Z8500 (http://ark.intel.com/products/85474/Intel-Atom-x5-Z8500-Processor-2M-Cache-up-to-2_24-GHz), a 64-bit UEFI is quite likely.

I am almost sold. All I need is to find a spare $300 :)

HtheB

2016-03-02, 13:26

I've asked the guys at GPD, seems like you can just change/install linux distros on it.

handaxe

2016-03-02, 13:51

Now just get them to provide an alternative to the keyboard (more keyboard less game pad)!

Thanks for the info - tempting little beast.

javispedro

2016-03-02, 14:03

It needs a 64-bit UEFI in order to run Linux properly.

I don't understand why, since Linux boots fine on a 32 bit UEFI, both in amd64 and x86 versions.

But since Windows x64 is the one that does not work on top of a 32 bit UEFI, the proper question would be "does it run windows x64"?

Personally, I don't think 64 bit UEFI or OS makes sense with such a low-spec device.

t-b

2016-03-02, 16:57

What does "optimize Linux software for the hardware" mean?

Optimize (improve) programs, OS, GUI, menu's for small screen, maybe fix drivers, some configuration. Basically utilize the available hardware for the best result and speed.
For the Pyra this will happen for sure. I doubt we will see that for the GPD WIN.

HtheB

2016-03-03, 00:34

Optimize (improve) programs, OS, GUI, menu's for small screen, maybe fix drivers, some configuration. Basically utilize the available hardware for the best result and speed.
For the Pyra this will happen for sure. I doubt we will see that for the GPD WIN.

Pyra still doesn't have GPU drivers (yet)
Be sure that you have a Tablet mode on Windows 10 for smaller screens like the GPD Win.

Otherwise: You can always hook up an HDMI cable on a bigger screen :)

gerbick

2016-03-03, 02:10

Pyra still doesn't have GPU drivers (yet)

This will come off as an ultra-naive question... but who do people ultimately blame for this kind of oversight? The people that picked and chose hardware and built a product around it or the hardware manufacturers that do not supply Linux drivers (or access) for all of their hardware components?

Or both? Buying around your OS of chose and the hardware that "might" work shouldn't still be happening in 2016.

theonelaw

2016-03-03, 04:41

A reply to my query arrived from a GPD source,
just waiting for permission to pass it along.
:D
The fact that it has a hardware keyboard should make doing anything with it a lot easier in boot process.
Pyra still doesn't have GPU drivers (yet)
Be sure that you have a Tablet mode on Windows 10 for smaller screens like the GPD Win.

The GPD appears to be using the internal intel gpu,
which for running X11 debian/gentoo/etc should be okay.
The screen size is a bit tight (1280x720)
but exceeds the worst case situation (1024x600,
which occasionally clips some things in XFCE).
I would guess this should be something we can <-hack->
:cool:

Otherwise: You can always hook up an HDMI cable on a bigger screen :)

Putting an HDMI screen in my pocket is still a
hardware issue I have not quite found a (comfortable) solution for...

sulu

2016-03-03, 09:40

The GPD appears to be using the internal intel gpu,
which for running X11 debian/gentoo/etc should be okay.
The screen size is a bit tight (1280x720)
but exceeds the worst case situation (1024x600,
which occasionally clips some things in XFCE).
I would guess this should be something we can <-hack->
:cool:Have a look at the xrandr options --scale and --panning!

The GPD could be interesting if it were available without Windows.

Putting an HDMI screen in my pocket is still a
hardware issue I have not quite found a (comfortable) solution for...Hidden in plain sight?
That's what the girl is for! ;)

HtheB

2016-03-03, 11:18

The GPD could be interesting if it were available without Windows.

Just install linux on it then? :p

sulu

2016-03-03, 11:41

Neither do I support Microsoft's abusive market share argument against free choice, nor their broken EULA rejection policy by buying devices that are bundled with their OS.

HtheB

2016-03-03, 12:05

Neither do I support Microsoft's abusive market share argument against free choice, nor their broken EULA rejection policy by buying devices that are bundled with their OS.
I hope you realize that a license is not needed for screen sizes that are 10.1" and lower...
So you're not paying any license money to Microsoft if you buy it.

Just keep on being such a fanboy like that...

sulu

2016-03-03, 12:44

I hope you realize that a license is not needed for screen sizes that are 10.1" and lower...Prove that with an official statement by MS please!
And please don't make the mistake to mix up the absence of a price tag with the absence of a licence!

So you're not paying any license money to Microsoft if you buy it.I never even mentioned money.

Just keep on being such a fanboy like that...I find it quite disturbing that I have to remind a council member and a moderator of the recently adopted Code of Conduct.
I believe the criteria to decide where to put my money is my free choice alone. It is your right to disagree with them, but this does not include insulting me as a fanboy of any kind.

gerbick

2016-03-03, 13:14

Prove that with an official statement by MS please!

You mean this which was applied back in 2014 for Windows 8.1 (http://www.theverge.com/2014/4/2/5574146/microsoft-making-windows-free-on-devices-with-screens-under-nine) and still applies to Windows 10 and the IoT version of Windows 10 or do you want the source... here you go (http://news.microsoft.com/2014/04/02/microsoft-showcases-latest-updates-to-windows-opportunities-for-developers/). Please note, before you go into a semantics fueled discussion; this applies to Windows 10 as well, which was a free upgrade from Windows 8.1 and inherited that "below 9 inches" criteria for a free license, but same EULA for usage. I've honestly no clue how the license applies to every hardware manufacturer though.

And please don't make the mistake to mix up the absence of a price tag with the absence of a licence!

Very keen difference here and you're right. You still get a license but it's free. You still fall under their EULA if you activate the installation. But if you receive a device, install Linux on it, never activate the Windows EULA/license; you are fully under the license of whatever distro you've installed. Now... the question about warranty is up to the manufacturer. But who worries about warranties when you're installing Linux on a device that's built for Windows?

Normally... not I.

I never even mentioned money.

You have to always understand that the EULA is for the OS and has to be activated. If you do not agree to it, then there are other devices that do not seem to care about the choice of OS - Dell XPS 13 Linux/Dev Edition (http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-linux/pd) for instance is modern equipment sans Microsoft's Windows license & EULA attachments. And all drivers for the device work with Ubuntu (for instance) without any issue.

I think a smarter question would be if that situation is the same with the GPD device. And to be honest, since they're Chinese, they probably are OS agnostic and don't follow the EULA to the letter. Call it a hunch.

pichlo

2016-03-03, 13:46

I find it disturbing when an innocent word, moreover clearly used in an ironic context, is seen as an insult.

Please notice that the freedom of choice goes both ways. In this case, the choice of an OS was made by the GPD team, not some big retail chain or a specific OS producer. If you decide to build a machine, you can put whatever OS you damn please on it. So can they.

<rant>
The same goes for bundled features, BTW. If my local corner shop decided to throw in a pocket calculator with every kilo of apples I buy there, it is their damn choice and any stationery shop selling calculators has no right to complain. It is my choice if I use it or throw it away. In the same way, if an OS producer decides to bundle a browser, a text processor or a rocket launcher in their OS, it is their choice. Any whining about "monopoly" is just that, whining.
</rant>

gerbick has covered most of what I was going to say next.

sulu

2016-03-03, 13:50

You still get a license but it's free.That's exactly my point. The problem with this is, that MS still counts this as a Windows licence being sold, regardless of whether I accept or decline the EULA.
I'm not willing to support that company by silently accepting this policy.

But who worries about warranties when you're installing Linux on a device that's built for Windows?

Normally... not I.Well, I do. In 2010 I bought a Dell laptop without a Windows licence that would have normally shipped with one (which was a pretty lenghty process btw.).
Some time later I had to make use of the warranty and it turned out to be crucial to have the info in their DB that I bought it without Windows in the first place, because otherwise they would have wanted me to install Windows (thereby accepting the EULA) for (pointless) remote tests.

You have to always understand that the EULA is for the OS and has to be activated. If you do not agree to it, then there are other devices that do not seem to care about the choice of OS - Dell XPS 13 Linux/Dev Edition (http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-linux/pd) for instance is modern equipment sans Microsoft's Windows license & EULA attachments.[/qAnd all drivers for the device work with Ubuntu (for instance) without any issue.Please don't take this personally, but this attidude is part of the problem.
I have very good reasons why I want a specific device. Another device usually doesn't meet my needs (that well).
And since there is never a technical reason why a specific device should be bundled with a specific OS, I see no reason to accept the bundling in the first place.

gerbick

2016-03-03, 14:01

That's exactly my point. The problem with this is, that MS still counts this as a Windows licence being sold, regardless of whether I accept or decline the EULA.

I can't share this concern nor worry. Especially since the metrics for this is based in the millions and unfortunately the few that think as such make up not even a percent. Sad case, more should care - but I choose apathy. Microsoft will fail on other things; this is not one of them.

Well, I do. In 2010 I bought a Dell laptop without a Windows licence that would have normally shipped with one (which was a pretty lenghty process btw.).

In 2016, that whole situation is cleared up and simpler. I remember back in 2010 - the process was not hard. You just had to ask for a Dell with the FreeDOS option (available since 2006 or so) and then your equipment would be registered differently in their system. That's how I did it when I was still doing global IT for a Fortune 500 company. We had thousands of laptops that were in that category and no hassle for warranties.

Your decisions have made your options limited. I'm of a different mind - I do not shop where I feel limited. We're just coming in from two different directions; somewhat similar concerns, different way of dealing with those concerns.

But I get the gist of what you're saying. I'd say there are some other options for you though. More modern options.

Good luck on your endeavors.

sulu

2016-03-03, 14:26

I find it disturbing when an innocent word, moreover clearly used in an ironic context, is seen as an insult.I don't see any irony in HtheB's post. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong, in which case I'd like to apologize, but this post, as it stands, seems totally serious to me.

Please notice that the freedom of choice goes both ways. In this case, the choice of an OS was made by the GPD team,Which is why I'm merely stating that I'd find their device interesting IF I could get it without a Windows licence.
I'm not demanding, I'm not complaining.

The same goes for bundled features, BTW. If my local corner shop decided to throw in a pocket calculator with every kilo of apples I buy there, it is their damn choice and any stationery shop selling calculators has no right to complain. It is my choice if I use it or throw it away. In the same way, if an OS producer decides to bundle a browser, a text processor or a rocket launcher in their OS, it is their choice. Any whining about "monopoly" is just that, whining.Your comparison doesn't work.
Your corner shop won't force that calculator on you, which you refuse to take just to throw it away because you don't want to pollute the environment needlessly.

pichlo

2016-03-03, 14:29

The problem with this is, that MS still counts this as a Windows licence being sold, regardless of whether I accept or decline the EULA.

The way I see it, if they count something I did not pay for as "sold" then yes, it is a problem. But theirs, not mine.

I would just to put it on the record that I admire your moral integrity. And I envy you that you can afford to live by your ideology. I can't. I have kids to feed and a mortgage to pay. I have targets to deliver. I have to be more pragmatic about things.

sulu

2016-03-03, 14:34

I can't share this concern nor worry. Especially since the metrics for this is based in the millions and unfortunately the few that think as such make up not even a percent. Sad case, more should care - but I choose apathy.Those millions you're speaking of is nothing else than the sum of a lot of single people. I chose not to be one of them. Feel free to make a different choice!

I remember back in 2010 - the process was not hard. You just had to ask for a Dell with the FreeDOS option (available since 2006 or so) and then your equipment would be registered differently in their system. That's how I did it when I was still doing global IT for a Fortune 500 company.When I tried the same thing with one device Dell told me, that there is no option in their software to unbundle the Windows license from the machine. They even offered me a discount for swallowing the licence, which I refused.
The case was settled at this point for me, but a week later the sales person got back to me, told me that he went to his superior who was somehow able to cheat the software.
In the end I got a device with FreeDOS and a hungarian Windows license on my bill, which wasn't shipped because it wasn't available in Germany.

javispedro

2016-03-03, 14:34

I didn't want to really participate in this stupid dinosaur discussion (*), but...

And I envy you that you can afford to live by your ideology. I can't. I have kids to feed and a mortgage to pay. I have targets to deliver. I have to be more pragmatic about things.

..... *rolls eyes*

* I consider the discussion irrelevant because:
- Dinosaurism: MS is dead, get over it
- Did anyone check whether they actually plan to ship a Windows license? As Gerbick said, they're chinese manufacturers. They're either receiving money from MS, or they'll probably 'don't care' about licensing.

sulu

2016-03-03, 15:04

The way I see it, if they count something I did not pay for as "sold" then yes, it is a problem. But theirs, not mine.It becomes my problem if they use their false numbers to "prove" that people don't want anything else anyway, which in turn makes them limit my choices even further by using their market position.

As Gerbick said, they're chinese manufacturers. They're either receiving money from MS, or they'll probably 'don't care' about licensing.If they just don't care about the licenses and include them without Microsoft's consent I'd want to know, because rejecting these licenses out of principle on one hand and turning a blind eye on license violation on the other would make me a hypocrite.

gerbick

2016-03-03, 17:03

Those millions you're speaking of is nothing else than the sum of a lot of single people. I chose not to be one of them. Feel free to make a different choice!

Sorry, but I will not fight this kind of fight. It's not in my personal interest since I have readily accepted that my wants/needs/perspective is a minority. And thus, my impact is minimal until it no longer is minimal. My decisions to back Maemo, MeeGo, even Sailfish all support that I've decided to support projects that have (very) low sales but coincide with my wants/needs that mirror yours in some points.

Simply stated: you have your choices, I have my own. I'm not imposing my choices on yours. Please do not do impose your choices on me. And to be clear, I do not think that you are imposing your choices on me whatsoever.

When I tried the same thing with one device Dell told me, that there is no option in their software to unbundle the Windows license from the machine. They even offered me a discount for swallowing the licence, which I refused.

I fear that you got a lesser trained person than I would have dealt with, especially in that regard.

In the end I got a device with FreeDOS and a hungarian Windows license on my bill, which wasn't shipped because it wasn't available in Germany.

Oh, you're in Germany? I'm in the US. Perhaps there is a sales difference and/or options difference but I'm quite sure FreeDOS was an option while I still lived in Kreuzberg (also Bamberg and Schwieberdingen). I won't say "try again" - I will ask though... what are your current options and does anybody else (manufacturer) fit your needs?

Again... not being dismissive; I do wish you luck on your endeavors.

handaxe

2016-03-03, 18:19

Lads, lads, LADS! Serenity now.

gerbick

2016-03-03, 18:21

Lads, lads, LADS! Serenity now.

Nope. After we battle over EULA's... up next will be distros, then kernels and finally the blood bath over which shell and text editor reigns supreme.

THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE!

theonelaw

2016-03-04, 03:34

Nope. After we battle over EULA's... up next will be distros, then kernels and finally the blood bath over which shell and text editor reigns supreme.

THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE!

My reading lists,
after I began to recognize the difference
between various personality disorders populating my social life,
has devolved to things like lists of old friends (http://www.ptypes.com/summary.html),
forgotten (Horrible) Bosses (http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Obsessive-compulsive-personality-disorder.html), and coyote morning (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2882283/) escape therapy.
(Yes, I avoid rooms populated with mirrors.)

Anyways, keep going - we are still some distance from the Godwin Event Horizon (https://godwinlimit.wordpress.com/2011/09/02/the-godwin-limit/).

As for Microsoft,
the day approaches when we will hear about a data breach
exposing squillions of user passwords,
all because the Win10 phone-the-mothership plan will get hacked (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/16/02/06/1550249/even-with-telemetry-disabled-windows-10-talks-to-dozens-of-microsoft-servers).
After that their marketshare may no longer be dominant.

Now - back on topic:

The advertised release date for the GPD is October/November?
such a huge distance it is hard to justify getting too excited about.
In any case, that becomes
What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?

Our only real hope is that something in a pipeline pops up
like http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=96486&highlight=ubuntu

BTW, the best text editor is the one that comes with mc:
mcedit (http://www.softpanorama.org/OFM/MC/mcedit.shtml) leaves both vi and emacs eating dust.

theonelaw

2016-03-04, 03:49

A reply to my query arrived from a GPD source,
just waiting for permission to pass it along.
:D

I asked

Regarding the indiegogo project:
( https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/a-laptop-fitting-in-your-pocket--2#/ )

The form factor and other bits have gotten some attention over at TMO
( http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1500282&postcount=158 )

Whether to buy into this hinges on whether the firmware will be locked to Win10
or can we (independently and assuming no further warranty etc) install a linux system ?

If it is locked into being a WIndows machine then it is outside the scope of our search,
but
if it will be possible to install (from a usb disk or whatever) something like Debian
or some other actual linux distro this would raise a lot of interest.
There are quite a few of us who are still searching for a machine of this calibre
in the form factor your project advertises. Some of us have already spent quite
significant resources in the search for something of this nature..

Just asking, thanks for your reading time

and the reply:

Thanks so much for your kind concerns for GPD WIN.The system is not locked.you can install a linux system as long as you want and you can.And thanks so much for sharing this excited new and help us to let now people know this good device!!really thinks!!

HtheB

2016-03-04, 07:12

Even though they promised to deliver the GPD Win if it won't reach the goal, they did reach it!
They've also upgraded the CPU to Z8550
It's also confirmed that you can boot a different OS using a MicroSD or from the USB port.
I love the way how they reply to every single comment on the IGG campaign page

pichlo

2016-03-04, 07:55

Indeed.

Communication:
GPD 1:0 Jolla

It remains to be seen if they keep the score with regards to the delivery.

javispedro

2016-03-04, 07:55

And they answered the Win10 question: Yes, it'll ship a W10 license (the free one from MS).

t-b

2016-03-04, 16:50

Which is why I'm merely stating that I'd find their device interesting IF I could get it without a Windows licence.

You could just buy a Pyra. The OpenPandora community is very Linux friendly - even using the GNU/ isn't frowned upon ;)
No Windows or another proprietary OS will be installed. The only reason not to buy it - if you want a Linux handheld device - is the price. Michael (the main guy behind the Pyra) gives excellent customer service even years after the guarantee period. I'll gladly pay the higher price for the service, friendly and pro-Linux company / community.

Ken-Young

2016-03-05, 03:50

Pickins are pretty slim for what OP wants but, if you are willing to use an android phone the following app will let you run a lot of handy commands I associate with gnu linux based distributions. (convert, ls -ltr, vi, and so on).
[...]

I've got GNURoot Debian on an Android phone, and it works pretty well. I can run ipython etc on it. The biggest problem with that app is that it drains the battery even when idle, for reasons I don't understand.

javispedro

2016-03-05, 14:51

I've got GNURoot Debian on an Android phone, and it works pretty well. I can run ipython etc on it. The biggest problem with that app is that it drains the battery even when idle, for reasons I don't understand.

idle = screen off?

i've seen this on some android devices and the best "explanation" I could come up with is that the terminal program grabs a wake lock and (much like the early Jolla days) bugs in the kernel means power is wasted whenever there's a wakelock even if the system is idle. So it runs down the battery in a few hours.

mscion

2016-03-06, 15:34

I've got GNURoot Debian on an Android phone, and it works pretty well. I can run ipython etc on it. The biggest problem with that app is that it drains the battery even when idle, for reasons I don't understand.

Hi. I tried the GNURoot Debian app and did not experience a significant drainage of battery when I put the app in background. Same with Linux on Android although in that case I was using Fedora. I had to install ipython on both.

Did you get Launch X option to work?. It freezes when I try and I had to kill the process to get out.

Ken-Young

2016-03-07, 06:21

Hi. I tried the GNURoot Debian app and did not experience a significant drainage of battery when I put the app in background. Same with Linux on Android although in that case I was using Fedora. I had to install ipython on both.

Did you get Launch X option to work?. It freezes when I try and I had to kill the process to get out.

I got the GNURoot Debian Launch X option to "work", but it was so clumsy as to be worthless. So I use the nonX11 shell of GNURoot Debian, and display X11 stuff, when needed, with XServer XSDL (another app entirely). The combination is usable, but no where near as handy as an N900.

I should clarify that when I said GNURoot Debian drained the battery, even when Idle, it doesn't drain it rapidly. When idle, it seems to take about as much juice as "Google Play Services" (on a Nexus 5x). I'm just surprised that it burns power at all when I am not actively using it. I use iPython as my calculator, and I have lots of functions defined. With my N900, I can just leave an iPython shell running all the time, and it does not drain the battery at all.

Ken-Young

2016-03-07, 06:22

idle = screen off?
...

Yes, screen off.

mscion

2016-03-07, 17:32

I got the GNURoot Debian Launch X option to "work", but it was so clumsy as to be worthless. So I use the nonX11 shell of GNURoot Debian, and display X11 stuff, when needed, with XServer XSDL (another app entirely). The combination is usable, but no where near as handy as an N900.

I should clarify that when I said GNURoot Debian drained the battery, even when Idle, it doesn't drain it rapidly. When idle, it seems to take about as much juice as "Google Play Services" (on a Nexus 5x). I'm just surprised that it burns power at all when I am not actively using it. I use iPython as my calculator, and I have lots of functions defined. With my N900, I can just leave an iPython shell running all the time, and it does not drain the battery at all.

Yup. You're right. When putting GNURoot Debian in background it uses about the same (if not slightly more) battery as Google Play Services. I tried the same with Linux on Android and it didn't use enough battery to appear in the list depicting battery usage. So it may be better with regards to battery usage.

Currently there is no linux distro with a finger friendly desktop environment that is suited for screens on cell phones. That was one of the nice things about the N900. One can only hope that someday a company will release a phone with a hwkb in landscape again...

mscion

2016-03-10, 00:37

I got the GNURoot Debian Launch X option to "work", but it was so clumsy as to be worthless. So I use the nonX11 shell of GNURoot Debian, and display X11 stuff, when needed, with XServer XSDL (another app entirely). The combination is usable, but no where near as handy as an N900.

I should clarify that when I said GNURoot Debian drained the battery, even when Idle, it doesn't drain it rapidly. When idle, it seems to take about as much juice as "Google Play Services" (on a Nexus 5x). I'm just surprised that it burns power at all when I am not actively using it. I use iPython as my calculator, and I have lots of functions defined. With my N900, I can just leave an iPython shell running all the time, and it does not drain the battery at all.

Would you please explain what you did to get XServer XSDL to work. I had no luck with it.

Speaking of doing math I noticed that Maxima worked without a hitch on GNURoot. (Just had to use apt-get to install).

endsormeans

2016-03-14, 06:37

For what it is worth..
I have done a fairly exhaustive hunt myself ..
not just for linux handheld devices....
but virtually any umpc or handheld devices for that matter...
that have a physical mic in and audio out set of ports..
NOT a unified single mic/headphone port. (just soooo much of a pita...)
I am speaking primarily of utilizing real time effects processing (properly...we have a running kind of sloppy mess that kinda works..)
Shy of the raspberry pi utilizing the wolfson cape/card (pretty wicked actually)
Or a very old (rather out of stock ) audio cape with mic in audio out for the beaglebone black (no availability of that cape makes it rather useless)
there is the sony vaio vgn-ux series...which has a dedicated mic in and audio out set of ports...woohoo!
.which can run linux distros...
and has been mentioned here in this thread as an option...
BUT...I have read soooo much on the ux line and utilizing linux distros...
and though it is possible to run it on the ux models..all of the models have issues...primarily...what comes up as the the cripplers are
wifi issues...
touchscreen calibration...
, touchscreen accuracy...
(these last two bug me since using full linux fx processor progs..
hell...pretty much any progs..
on a screen so small and tight means touchscreen accuracy and compliance
(meaning where you try to precisely touch will actually BE where you touch) is freakin' dodgy...
to the point many people opt for keyboards and mice instead of fighting with the touchscreen...
soooo...
adding a ton more peripherals not because you CAN ...
but because you MUST...ticks me off..)
In all it ticks me off since the ux line looks/looked like the best option

I mentioned in the guitar effects thread..the new progs that droid has ..amplitube and irig for android..
sadly android and iphone both have pretty good real time effects processor apps ..(not as good as rak or jack rack or gtkgep even .. in my opinion ...just shiny and slick)
.and actual gear to hook it up proper...
which realllllyyyy pisses me off to no end...
hm.
well..I'm not desperate enough to use a droid or iphony ..
rather settle for our patchwork throw-together gtkgep until a gtkgep eureka or other prog happens..or a proper linux umpc shows itself capable...
there is my micro rant/edification/illumination on an aspect of this handheld easter egg hunt...

pichlo

2016-03-14, 07:41

Thanks endso for the very useful writeup on the Uax series. I have been seriously considering it for the past two weeks, the only two things that put me off were the rather chunky size and the not-so-good battery life on the now rather archaic units. I was not even aware of the other issues you mention in your post, that was the last drop to sway me away from those.

Another thing I am currently considering is also Sony, the VAIO P series (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Vaio_P_series). Any info on those?

FWIW, I would not consider a combined mic-speakers port a problem per se. An adapter is a trivial thing to make, in the worst case. As far as I am concerned, the main problem with the combined ports is that the mic part of those is mono only. Not for me as I am not a big audio processor but in general. If it does not bother you, even better.

sicelo

2016-03-14, 08:36

I've always loved those VAIO P's pichlo :) Never owner one, but would sure love to

main problem with Linux is the Poulsbo driver .. big mess.

they are also quite old now

mscion

2016-03-14, 12:00

chenliangchen

2016-03-14, 12:03

I've always loved those VAIO P's pichlo :) Never owner one, but would sure love to

main problem with Linux is the Poulsbo driver .. big mess.

they are also quite old now

That is a Vaio P(ichlo) :D

I used to have a green one to play around. Very light and beautiful. But Atom processor is so weak and even lags playing video. I was expecting a weak performance but that was even below the expectation. Then I traded for a second hand Vaio UX... ;)

chenliangchen

2016-03-14, 12:06

A while back I had looked into the VAIO P series but eventually settled on getting a Lenovo Thinkpad and slapped ubuntu on it. Still wish I could buy a 4 to 5 inch slider that could run linux distro.

For 4-5 inches slider, I will recommend the Sharp Willcom D4 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_Willcom_D4) (If you can get the driver for Linux, not sure for that.) And Sony Vaio UX (The ultimate gadget on its time)

javispedro

2016-03-14, 12:32

BUT...I have read soooo much on the ux line and utilizing linux distros...
and though it is possible to run it on the ux models..all of the models have issues...primarily...what comes up as the the cripplers are
wifi issues...
touchscreen calibration...
, touchscreen accuracy...
(these last two bug me since using full linux fx processor progs..
hell...pretty much any progs..
on a screen so small and tight means touchscreen accuracy and compliance
(meaning where you try to precisely touch will actually BE where you touch) is freakin' dodgy...
to the point many people opt for keyboards and mice instead of fighting with the touchscreen...

As a owner of two Vaio UX 280P.... you're quite wrong.

I run Gentoo regularly and I'm yet to experience a Wi-Fi problem. Heck, my second/main UX 280P has a GSM radio and I also use it without much problem.

Touchscreen precision+accuracy is second to none. It's a _resistive_ screen, after all. Better than almost anything you can find on the market today.

Obviously, it requires a stylus though.

But my primary input method is without a doubt the _track point_. Oh god what a wonderful invention it is, for that form factor. I end up using even for non-precision input (e.g. scrolling).

Curiously enough, I almost never use the track point on laptops... but on the Vaio UX, it does make a difference.

pichlo

2016-03-14, 12:52

Hmm... Now e have two conflicting opinions on the VAIO UX. We need another one for 2 out of 3.

aegis

2016-03-14, 12:59

How about the Panasonic Toughbook CF-U1 ?

Currently quite cheap second hand on ebay as there's a load of them being disposed from ex-utility company use.

Chunky but built like a brick outhouse - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Panasonic-Toughbook-CF-U1-Mk2-1-6GHz-2GB-64GB-SSD-Win7-3G-Barcode-Camera-GPS-/361507658274?hash=item542b891a22:g:7DIAAOSwTapV5v~ D

chenliangchen

2016-03-14, 13:22

Hmm... Now e have two conflicting opinions on the VAIO UX. We need another one for 2 out of 3.

I also stand for Vaio UX, had a UX1XN, the best UMPC ever had, if you can get the driver right, especially for touch screen, the original driver was somewhat inaccurate even calibrated. I bought a third party driver (I couldn't remember the name now) in a group purchase which cost about $30, and it was SUPER accurate and even support for gestures for scroll or drag etc. (Yeah stock driver does not support that.)

Some gadget had an eye-catching design but not friendly in actual use, but this one was cool in looking and using. Mouse pad was the best ever, much much better than the dot on Vaio P.

The only disadv would be difficult to perform internal upgrade, need accurate soldering to change CPU and seem to be impossible to upgrade RAM, but that's common on all UMPCs...

mscion

2016-03-14, 14:05

I also stand for Vaio UX, had a UX1XN, the best UMPC ever had, if you can get the driver right, especially for touch screen, the original driver was somewhat inaccurate even calibrated. I bought a third party driver (I couldn't remember the name now) in a group purchase which cost about $30, and it was SUPER accurate and even support for gestures for scroll or drag etc. (Yeah stock driver does not support that.)

Some gadget had an eye-catching design but not friendly in actual use, but this one was cool in looking and using. Mouse pad was the best ever, much much better than the dot on Vaio P.

The only disadv would be difficult to perform internal upgrade, need accurate soldering to change CPU and seem to be impossible to upgrade RAM, but that's common on all UMPCs...

I dunno. These are all antiques. Although I like the vents and ethernet port on the Vaio! Also don't see any for sale. At least nothing without outrageous price. Maybe next year...

http://m.gsmarena.com/samsung_is_allegedly_working_on_highend_tizen_phon es_due_next_year-news-15059.php

gerbick

2016-03-14, 14:37

chenliangchen

2016-03-14, 15:06

Dear lord... the Sony UX1XN was released in 2007 or so, right?

What has been launched in (let's say) 2015 or 2016 instead? All of this old tech being pushed into recent discussion just doesn't instill hope that anything with modern drivers, features, display, CPU/GPU and/or functionality in mind will ever occur.

New model? We have iPad, Pro, Mini, Mini Pro......

ARM tablet running Android (apart from Jolla tablet, which can not get easily.)

Or Windows 10 tabs? (still possible to run Linux)

But the problem is why want a 2015/2016 device when the task can be done perfectly on old machines, where old machines still have functions that modern devices do not have:

- A reasonable size, I will say under 7 inch otherwise it's hard to hand held. That eliminates most of the "modern" devices.

- A physical connected physical keyboard. And connect to the mainbody in one piece. The modern devices either use wireless connections or detached physical connection which is not handy when comes to "handheld"

- A removable battery.

These only exists on old devices.

It's not we don't want to talk about modern devices because there aren't any for handheld.

Feathers McGraw

2016-03-14, 15:29

But the problem is why want a 2015/2016 device when the task can be done perfectly on old machines, where old machines still have functions that modern devices do not have

I would say the problem is that old machines have functions that modern devices do not have.

How difficult can it be to take something like these old models and release a new version with more RAM and a faster CPU? Battery technology has come along enough to compensate for the increased power consumption, surely.

gerbick

2016-03-14, 15:43

New model? We have iPad, Pro, Mini, Mini Pro......

I bet those run Linux quite well.

But the problem is why want a 2015/2016 device when the task can be done perfectly on old machines, where old machines still have functions that modern devices do not have:

Because I don't want old tech that has built-in obsolescence as part of the equation. I loved my N810. It still will crank up, but I fear that I'll no longer have any replacement parts if I lose the stylus or if the screen breaks. And I'm in no mood to pay more than double/triple for hard to find parts.

I don't want old tech always. I do want solid tech though. There's a key difference where your loyalty to old **** means you're paying more to replace it later. How's that for "loyalty"?

It's not we don't want to talk about modern devices because there aren't any for handheld.

Bingo. There just isn't any good, modern tech that fits most of our criteria.

I would say the problem is that old machines have functions that modern devices do not have.

How difficult can it be to take something like these old models and release a new version with more RAM and a faster CPU? Battery technology has come along enough to compensate for the increased power consumption, surely.

I would hug you if you were nearby. EXACTLY THIS...

Copernicus

2016-03-14, 15:47

Battery technology has come along enough to compensate for the increased power consumption, surely.

Wish that was the case. :( Apparently, chemistry refuses to follow Moore's law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_law) the way that computing devices do. At least, mobile CPUs have been able to drop their power requirements as die sizes have dropped...

chenliangchen

2016-03-14, 15:47

I would say the problem is that old machines have functions that modern devices do not have.

How difficult can it be to take something like these old models and release a new version with more RAM and a faster CPU? Battery technology has come along enough to compensate for the increased power consumption, surely.

Most of these modern machines have a better CPU, yes. But in terms of RAM, most of them are still 2GB now, compare with 1gb or 2gb on these old UMPCs, not much difference.

And since most of us not using these to play games or do graphic design, the extra amount of horse power doesn't make a big difference.

However a slider physical keyboard, an accurate resistive screen or a resonable size does make a difference.

Modern specs never equal to great user experience, proved on phones already.

gerbick

2016-03-14, 15:54

Modern specs never equal to great user experience, proved on phones already.

The opposite is also true. Older devices rarely equate to an user experience worth a damn. It's "usable" but barely so with people with needs/use cases that extend past terminal, browsing or minimal admin needs.

chenliangchen

2016-03-14, 16:07

The opposite is also true. Older devices rarely equate to an user experience worth a damn. It's "usable" but barely so with people with needs/use cases that extend past terminal, browsing or minimal admin needs.

Won't say it's wrong. It's also what the user need/want actually. If using app/playing games/watching movies then it's no doubt modern toys rule.

If considering the demands here, especially for this niche group old machines still suits.

I also hate digging up old chunks but just so disappointed with what is on the market now, and that doesn't look like to change anytime "soon".

chenliangchen

2016-03-14, 16:12

I dunno. These are all antiques. Although I like the vents and ethernet port on the Vaio! Also don't see any for sale. At least nothing without outrageous price. Maybe next year...

http://m.gsmarena.com/samsung_is_allegedly_working_on_highend_tizen_phon es_due_next_year-news-15059.php

Used to be around £150-£200 for a used one in bidding. Maybe it's too old or just unlucky this time... It should come back at a normal price some time

gerbick

2016-03-14, 16:17

Won't say it's wrong. It's also what the user need/want actually. If using app/playing games/watching movies then it's no doubt modern toys rule.

I am not talking about "toys" else I'd point to half of the stuff that I have to support. I'm talking about the rather niche/esoteric needs as you had listed out.

Most people just do not want an attached hardware keyboard right now. But here at TMO, that's in the top three. I'm speaking only to stuff that applies as top level wants here.

If considering the demands here, especially for this niche group old machines still suits.

Me too. I just do not like aging tech that is now more expensive to maintain than it's worth.

I also hate digging up old chunks but just so disappointed with what is on the market now, and that doesn't look like to change anytime "soon".

I dislike what's out now as well. But I fear it points to the fact that what we like, we're not a majority or even a huge share in the least. In fact, we're about as niche and minimal as you can get. Even kids get more update hardware than we do. And whenever we do get a device targeted towards our niche; we argue about how unsatisfactory it may be and never buy it anyway... until years later when it's harder to find and more expensive.

endsormeans

2016-03-14, 17:06

I'm glad a couple of people have had good experiences with the ux's touch ..googling sony vaio vgn-ux280p nets some of the most hits for the 180 up....and touch is one of problematic issues that seem unresolved.

I myself have been hovering over the "buy" button for a 180p ..
..throw on antix and away I go ...
antix'll run on a 1950's toaster...
so it would do well on the ux series I'm sure...
but those issues made/make me hesitate...

and yeah..
removable battery...
(so the battery life ain't the greatest...)
form factor...
proper audio in/out ports
touch (wish for more input from those who "have" no probs)
it does make it pretty good option...
regardless of age.

the current modern alternatives are ugly at this point ...ihell, buttdroid...or a literal raspbrick...

aegis

2016-03-14, 17:09

Most people just do not want an attached hardware keyboard right now. But here at TMO, that's in the top three. I'm speaking only to stuff that applies as top level wants here.

I think it's self selecting.

Most people are quite happy with modern tablets with capacitive screens and keyboards that adapt to the context.

Those that aren't have found a place to gather. :p

I've had Psions, Palms, Sony Ericsson P-series, Nokia S60 touch, N900 all with resistive screens. Would I go back to having to pull a toothpick out to operate a screen or fiddly HW keyboards that are too small to type quickly on? Like fudge no.

That still doesn't mean I don't want a decent handheld Linux machine. I've got my perfect hardware already - Sony Z compact phone and tablets. I just wish someone would do a decent OS and understood that they'll succeed if they unblock the logjams that stop community developers from progressing.

pichlo

2016-03-14, 17:37

aegis

2016-03-14, 18:02

How curious that the same person who objected (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1487896#post1487896) so much against a tiny status bar taking up a few pixels in one screen that no one uses for anything where those few pixels would add any value is now defending a virtual keyboard taking up more than half the screen where the lost pixels are of utmost importance ;)

I think you're using the wrong virtual keyboard as not all of them cover the display. And it does depend on the device.

I switch between a few different keyboards but generally I've no problem with Android's Hackers Keyboard for terminal use and in general use, Android's default keyboard is quicker than a hardware keyboard for me.

A high res screen helps a lot as even with a keyboard taking up the bottom quarter of the screen in portrait mode, I've still got a 100+ x 40+ terminal above it that is totally legible on a Z3c tablet. I get less col x rows on my laptop's lower res screen. I get a LOT less on my N900.

YMMV of course.

And I also have a Freedom iConnect bluetooth keyboard. I used to use it with my N900 because the N900 keyboard sucked. I'd rather have a 6.1mm thick tablet for 99% of the time than a tablet twice as thick to accommodate a keyboard I rarely need. I rarely carry that these days. I thought I'd use it more but IME Hackers Keyboard is good enough.

I object to status bars on aesthetic grounds. They're fugly and serve no purpose. :p

t-b

2016-03-14, 18:27

I think you're using the wrong virtual keyboard to accommodate a keyboard

Ever tried to do something productive with Emacs and a virtual keyboard?

javispedro

2016-03-14, 18:40

Hmm... Now e have two conflicting opinions on the VAIO UX. We need another one for 2 out of 3.

Where's smokku? :)

All of this old tech being pushed into recent discussion just doesn't instill hope that anything with modern drivers, features, display, CPU/GPU and/or functionality in mind will ever occur.

Simply stated, I don't want old tech that's outside of warranty that requires me to rely on the whims of folks that might reverse engineer something, require me to spot weld/solder something or makes me depended on people that honestly get just as disenfranchised all too quickly.

I concur.

It is a pity :(

I dunno. These are all antiques. Although I like the vents and ethernet port on the Vaio! Also don't see any for sale. At least nothing without outrageous price. Maybe next year...

Not sure if I'd recommend to buy one. It has one dealkiller for me (IMHO): thickness. It makes it unpocketable. And if I need to carry a bag, these days I just carry my Surface Pro.

All I want: make it slightly thinner. (A bit ironical for me to ask this). Performance was OK, so remove the fan if required. Maybe a little more RAM, modern Wi-Fi/Bluetooth/3G card (mine has 802.11g 2.4Ghz only, BT 2.0 and EDGE(!)), SSD (easy upgrade, I've done it).

Keep the form factor! Slide-out keyboard, "hand grip", trackpoint, removable battery.

And it is certainly possible. Equivalent hardware these days fits in smartphone-sized mobo...

theonelaw

2016-03-15, 03:45

http://talk.maemo.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=38214&stc=1&d=1458011213
There - fixed that:
framed and ready for printing and hanging on the wall
behind my receptionist.

Originally Posted by gerbick:

All of this old tech being pushed into recent discussion just doesn't instill hope that anything with modern drivers, features, display, CPU/GPU and/or functionality in mind will ever occur.

yes but a real issue is that linux drivers are always a year behind whatever hardware hits the market.
What you can buy off the shelf today will not support
a linux distro for quite some time to come,
and a worst case scenario like BayTrail never gets support.
The flips case is you get (like I have) something designed
for windows but runs horribly,
yet purrs like a kitten when you boot a proper linux.
Invariably a year old, or more.

I always thought the viao sliders were almost sexy enough,
but I never had the funds to participate back then.

As for panasonic toughbook,
I brought their sales rep to demo his latest a month ago,
and I showed him how easy it was to boot linux straight
into his machine. He took a foto of that and vanished.
It was a very nice machine, very linux compatible,
but far too expensive to consider (it was a big _lap-top).
If I find a tablet I might spend serious money,
just to have something that fits in the pocket,
but until this moment the n900 remains the only viable option.

gerbick

2016-03-15, 04:14

yes but a real issue is that linux drivers are always a year behind whatever hardware hits the market.

My issue with this... why is it still like this in 2016? The real answer and not some "Micro$oft SUX0RS" type of response won't cut it... but it's sadly all I'll expect.

aegis

2016-03-15, 12:28

Ever tried to do something productive with Emacs and a virtual keyboard?

No but then I've never tried to do something productive with Emacs and a real keyboard. :D

javispedro

2016-03-15, 13:25

My issue with this... why is it still like this in 2016? The real answer and not some "Micro$oft SUX0RS" type of response won't cut it... but it's sadly all I'll expect.

It's never been like this. Most of the time, these devices (e.g. the Vaio UXes) have better support under $RANDOM_GNU_DISTRO than under stock Windows. With Windows you need to go around fishing for 3rd party "driver packs" which almost invariably only work with a specific, decade old version.

gerbick

2016-03-15, 14:25

It's never been like this. Most of the time, these devices (e.g. the Vaio UXes) have better support under $RANDOM_GNU_DISTRO than under stock Windows. With Windows you need to go around fishing for 3rd party "driver packs" which almost invariably only work with a specific, decade old version.

Okay, so 2007 was a great year for devices that may have wanted to run Linux.

It's now 2016. Not so damn great now, is it? Even Linus Torvalds has gone on a rather Richard Stallman-ish "**** Nvidia" rant once or twice in the last decade.

I think a lot of folks just don't get how inconvenient it is to have to build your entire device purchases around "Will this run Linux?" as opposed to just running nicely "out of the box" - and I've not have had to download 3rd party driver packs since I was an admin for Windows 2000 Server SP2 - and I used to admin Windows machines from WinNT 4.0 to Windows 8.1/Windows 2012 Server and most points in-between in Fortune 500 companies.

Linux is great on a server. Linux is great embedded on a device. Damn near every Linux handheld device has flopped or is in some state of disarray, discontinuation or abandonment (read: project is now on GitHub).

I've used Slackware since almost the very beginning - mid-90's version 2.0 IIRC. I drove 280 miles (450 km) to the (then) nearest CompUSA just to touch the Nokia 770, which I ended up buying on the spot. Same for the N810, went backwards to purchase a N800.

Nothing like that exists like that right now. The excuses remain the same. And the idea that Linux cannot exist in the same space on devices that are coming out tomorrow because folks decided to finally support something from yesterday is ******** to my ears today.

That needs fixing.

m4r0v3r

2016-03-15, 15:30

If they want linux devices to be successful they need to stop marketing them as linux devices. Just make a great phone with a linux core, but stop harping on about the fact its a linux core because mainstream users dont care.

pichlo

2016-03-15, 15:35

Exactly! Make a device that works and market it as such. This is what I expected Jolla to be and now, two years later, I have to say that I am bitterly disappointed

gerbick

2016-03-15, 16:19

vitaminj

2016-03-15, 17:32

The N9 and scheduled Lauta could have been exactly that if support / advertising / 3rd party interest hadn't have been gutted due to the Elopement. Really nice phones for most, "hey look, it runs proper Linux" to the ... enthusiasts.

javispedro

2016-03-15, 17:52

Damn near every Linux handheld device has flopped or is in some state of disarray, discontinuation or abandonment (read: project is now on GitHub).
FTFY.

Nothing like that exists like that right now. The excuses remain the same.

I agree it is sad that nothing like that exists right now, which is the reason this thread goes on and on. The excuses are most probably the same: that there's not enough demand for this type of device. But I'm not sure if this what you're talking about.

Not much that we can fix, save for making our own machines.

And now for the flame fest...

Okay, so 2007 was a great year for devices that may have wanted to run Linux.

It's now 2016. Not so damn great now, is it?

It's funny, because the majority of 2016 devices run Linux as stock kernel. And only Linux! So I don't understand why would you even mention this? The situation for Linux has improved by any objective metric I can think of.

Now. Personally, I could not care less about Linux (in fact I would use _anything else_ if I could). I do care about free software, and I've come to realize that the free software situation has not improved that much and IMO it is worse today than it was in 2007. I blame Linux for that. But that's another story.

I think a lot of folks just don't get how inconvenient it is to have to build your entire device purchases around "Will this run Linux?" as opposed to just running nicely "out of the box"
I think most of the folks here get it. Most of us paid good for our Jollas, after all. And at least I bought because it "ran nicely out of the box". Otherwise, I've would have bought a $RANDOM_ANDROID_DEVICE and installed Sailfish on it.

I'm fully aware of how hard this is. Your user experience with an alternate operating system will almost be never better than the manufacturer installed+tested+"customized" version (save for extremely crappy manufacturers).
This includes installing Sailfish on a Android device, installing Windows 10 on a Windows 8 device, or installing CyanogenMod, or ...

Obviously, we do it for reasons widely known -- we want to extend the use cases that the manufacturer envisioned, perhaps even make futile attempts to create something that resembles our dream device...

and I've not have had to download 3rd party driver packs since I was an admin for Windows 2000 Server SP2 - and I used to admin Windows machines from WinNT 4.0 to Windows 8.1/Windows 2012 Server and most points in-between in Fortune 500 companies
Clearly you've never bought any mobile/embedded device recently, since I had to go and hunt for a driver pack for my Surface Pro 2, which is a _Microsoft_ device. Arguably, it's not 3rd party, since they actually host it in msdn.com ; the experience is rather similar though.

gerbick

2016-03-15, 18:57

FTFY.

It wasn't in need of fixing.

It's funny, because the majority of 2016 devices run Linux as stock kernel. And only Linux! So I don't understand why would you even mention this? The situation for Linux has improved by any objective metric I can think of.

Guess you've never had any problems with wireless chipsets and the like. Lucky you. Folks here complain about that ad nauseum. My mileage has varied and my experience(s) have been mostly fantastic.

Now. Personally, I could not care less about Linux (in fact I would use _anything else_ if I could). I do care about free software, and I've come to realize that the free software situation has not improved that much and IMO it is worse today than it was in 2007. I blame Linux for that. But that's another story.

And I don't care about free software. It's mostly **** that's not supported shortly after it's been released usually. But we clearly have different wants and needs.

Clearly you've never bought any mobile/embedded device recently, since I had to go and hunt for a driver pack for my Surface Pro 2, which is a _Microsoft_ device. Arguably, it's not 3rd party, since they actually host it in msdn.com ; the experience is rather similar though.

I'm typing to you via a Surface Pro 4. Never had to download one driver for it, the Surface Pro 3, Surface Pro 2, Surface 2 RT, nor Surface Pro or Surface RT. Yes... I have owned all of those at one time or another.

Simply stated; we have had a very different device experience. My need for any driver pack has not happened since 2002. Guess the least 14 years have been kinder to me than you in that one regard.

I have no regrets or apologies for that difference.

The N9 and scheduled Lauta could have been exactly that if support / advertising / 3rd party interest hadn't have been gutted due to the Elopement. Really nice phones for most, "hey look, it runs proper Linux" to the ... enthusiasts.

And it would have only gone on sale in Azerbaijan and other esoteric markets where the N9 initially was sold. I am not convinced the N9, Lauta or any of it would have made a dent since most of the board was either behind Elop or starting to turn against the drama surrounding Symbian.