Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
I voted as a qualified maybe, so here's a quote, then my comment:
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That said, there has been a core of people whom, out of excitement for the project or for more personal reasons, have been hyping it as the cure for all ills of the N900. That's not good when it's done for any particular sub-group, be that NIT, Bada, MeeGo, oFono, QtMoko, or even CSSU. Talking about something in context on occasion is fine. Mentioning someone has old info, with a link to where to find current info, fine. Providing current information about the state of things (which one member who has since left did), very informative and fine. High-jacking a thread in another sub-forum, on another topic (even one with a mis-guided topic/poll :rolleyes:) and debating over 30+ posts with the thread OP over a difference of opinion is a bit over the line though. I'm frankly surprised that infraction points weren't given to everyone involved for that, vs just the OP. I think in any other thread, there would have been a few people with a day or two of "down time". (How many have gotten infraction points on this thread for simply disagreeing with the op so far?) So, yes, discuss it. Yes, talk about it. But please don't keep insisting it's super-wonderful and better than anything else available in every thread where it's even slightly mentioned. |
Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
And now I wildly diverge and hop into something I probably shouldn't:
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I feel, like many, that MeeGo has taken too long to get to the meager point it's at right now. Despite your insistence otherwise, it still has several issues on the N900, many of which were talked about at the most recent conference. Even the presenters indicated that this is not ready for general consumption nor every-day use on the N900, yet. MMC vanishing at times, SMS not alerting, Wifi is unstable, and the accelerometer sensors are still not working. You'll note that I included links to the open bugs on the live bug database to indicate where I get my info on this from, since you've been claiming people aren't current on the status of DE/CE when saying things don't work. Again, I hope it improves, and that the bug count goes down. It's already surpassed the capabilities of many of it's predecessors on other platforms (OpenMoko comes to mind). But it's simply not solid enough for most people to switch over to for daily use right now. Saying otherwise is the same trap parents fall into claiming their kid is "special". In this case, the "special kid" is MeeGo and it just got a C-. Followed by a small chunk of the devel community is screaming "What?! It should have gotten at least a B+ or even an A!" You don't get to grade your own kid for a reason... (Even home-schoolers have standardized tests.) Quote:
So... That's my say on the issue. Take it as you will. I don't suspect much will change here, even with the rash of points and suspensions going on. But at least I got my two cents in before being banned. :p |
Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
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I've been in the maemo community a long time, and I'm sorry if I still think that this place is meant for those of us that have been using maemo for the past 5-6 years and developing for it, these are the people we're addressing when we talk about MeeGo, the goals have always been clear. Quote:
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Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
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The goal you're touting (as I see is) is to pull people off of the platform I'm using, that's vibrant, active, and starting to really show off what it can do, and into another that has no real future for the current hardware. For what? Especially given that it's not even guaranteed at this point that anyone is going to make a MeeGo-based device. There's been lots of talk, tons of announcements, but we're 6 months into 2011, and even Nokia looks like they may be back-tracking now. Not to mention a complete lack of any vendor talking about doing phone support, outside of maybe LG on one device. Nokia has been quite mum on weather it's only announced MeeGo offering will have any GSM capabilities. Quote:
Yes, creating an open tablet platform has been a key part of this forum. I can see how MeeGo is a natural continuation of that in the minds of some people, especially the N700/800 crowd. I can even see the desire to get people excited about it and get them to jump the shark and start working on the next big thing. But you shouldn't do so using false pretenses, which is exactly what you're doing when touting MeeGo on N900, while saying you never intend to see it for casual users. If the N900 is never going to run on MeeGo as primary OS, via a simple update/reflash procedure for common people, then it's wasted effort. Better to put the time and energy into something useful, like getting the Calendar to sync with on-line services, or Contacts to not crash the device randomly. (Those are active bugs too, but I'm too lazy to link them right now.) Pouring time and energy into a single device that's never going to be run by more than a handful of developers, used to make apps for... who again? Who's going to use the things they make? Not N900 owners, if the target is only getting developers on to it. Quote:
<SNARK> Besides, ask any Android user and they'll tell you, it's all open-source! They can do whatever you want on their Android phone, no really. :p Until you ask them to plug in a USB stick, and serve data from it to a laptop, while acting as both a web server and an AP hotspot... Because no phone can do that... Until yours can. But then you're just "showing off" with your "geeky phone". Not that I've ever done that... :rolleyes: |
Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
How did you miss the point about open _governance_ ? I did mention it twice ..
I don't care about "end-users" the people that are here from buying the N900 thinking it was something it wasn't, that is not an aspect of the community I've particularly enjoyed having around here the past year. Talk to most developers here and they all pretty much say the same thing. I sympathise for their problem, but I'm thinking about myself, what I want my N900 to do, not what other users want it to do, and not what Nokia want it to do. Just to reiterate, I'm not talking about the openness of source-code for drivers or any other closed component, I'm talking about the fact we have clear transparency into what goes on in MeeGo (at least that's the idea). Which is much different to how Google operate Android. What I want, and the main reason I've moved from Maemo to MeeGo as my target platform, is a maintained and more up-to-date GNU/Linux system for my N900. Users here are complaining about not having continued updates, the N900 is three years old, most people are thinking seriously about, if they haven't already, buying a new device. So what happens to the N900s then? I, on the other hand, want my devices to last longer, that support can only come from MeeGo. Point me to another project that has a better chance of maintaining a working and maintainable system for the N900 and N8x0 devices? So our goals, are a set of goals designed to give the bare essential functionality you need to call a phone a phone, making phone calls, sending and receive text messages, web browsing. We have all the hardware enablers in place. From that base, you can do what _you_ want with your N900. I couldn't care less about users that feel they have a right to demand developers develop for them. We all do this as a hobby. |
Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
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So i sit somewhere on the fence between user and developer interests and i guess that's why i'm a bit surprised at the vehemence of attitudes toward meego and its discussion here. |
Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
K. One last post. And don't take that as "this is rhetorical and I don't want a reply". I would love to continue the discussion, but I'm getting the feeling that we're at a bit of an en-passe. So I don't really plan on replying more unless that changes, though I do plan on reading replies!
First, Flandry: Quote:
As for the vehemence toward MeeGo, I'll touch on that near the end. Quote:
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I'm not saying governance isn't important. I'm saying it's potentially short-lived if you don't have access to the source under it. I've seen groups with lots of say into what went into version 1 and 2, only to be screwed when the company decided to go another way for versions 3 to 20, and took away those governance rights. Remember Linux on the PS3? Source + tools + access = power. Anything else is an illusion. Without the source, you're still stuck with binary blobs. Blobs eventually go bad when the thing they belong to doesn't stop at the same time they do. MeeGo will have newer blobs, sure... But those blobs will be trying to keep up with a moving target. Tell me, would you rather have an old Win98 driver that works with a couple know issues, or a WinME driver that's 6 months newer that might fix one of the issues? Sometimes newer isn't better. Quote:
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From the looks of the MeeGo bug list I'm looking at, all the hardware enablers aren't in place yet. Wifi is still flakey, accelerometers are still unhappy, and several other bits are still not right after months of trying. Yes, I'm happy to hear it's getting better more rapidly than a couple months ago. But again I ask, to what end? What do you want it to do with your N900 that it can't do now with Maemo? Is re-inventing the wheel going to help that? What support do you expect to see when/if an actual supported platforms start coming into existence? You don't strike me as the type that want's "Angry Birds - Rio". And yet I don't really see anything in Maemo that's lacking that you'll be able to pull off with just a change of OS. Quote:
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I'm a developer and an end-user. I came in with a good understanding of what the gadget was. I was elated to have a device that was "80% done". I was able to hack it to do exactly what I wanted, and a few things I didn't even know I wanted it to do. Sure, I'd love to have had flash 10 support and a vector based GPS system with turn-by turn out of the box. But what's available now, and what we've created together here, is actually quite nice. I too expect to have my N900 for a long time, probably at least another 3 to 4 years. I see it running Maemo for most of that time right now. I had my N6230 for 5 year before this one, and I still have tablets at home running Windows 98, chugging along happily. Far from being a "dead-end" platform, I see support for Maemo/N900 it all over the place. No, it's not from Nokia, but then I didn't expect a lot from Nokia. I was actually note expecting 1.3 at all, I figured we were done at 1.2. The community of people (users and developers) we have here though is beyond what I'd hoped for, and something I want to protect. From my perspective, based on what you're saying above, you're looking to pilfer that community with the promise of a half-baked cookie that may some day be almost as good as what we have now. That's why some people here are so "hostile" toward MeeGo. They've seen this before, and watched it tear apart communities, leaving nobody a winner. I for one don't want that here, which is why I pose these questions, and why I'm reserved about how much people are advocating for it. :( Anyway. I'm betting at this point we're not going to see eye to eye on this. You've made your goals pretty clear, and I applaud your directness in doing so. We both have a different view on what's important, and how long either platform has a chance on living on the N900. And yes, again, I think it's great to have updates on MeeGo posting back into this community. Who knows, if your vision comes to fruition, maybe most of the community here will transition and move to MeeGo, with continued support and happy new widgets and what not. Of course in your opinion, that could be a bad thing, what with all the people showing up and demanding things, no? Either way, I wish you luck in getting your community up and running, as well as getting the N900 stable under the new OS. My only hope is that your community doesn't come at the expense of this one, at least not any more than it already has. Good luck! |
Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
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A lack of understanding about what open/free means in terms of the OS is one of the many reasons people spread misinformation. |
Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
Based on the recent comments by the OP, I have to vote "no". Prior to these comments, I would have either voted "yes" or been indifferent.
While MeeGo has some roots in Maemo, the only real connection is a single piece of hardware that is capable of running multiple OS's. MeeGo information is only a quick google search away, and with a couple of bookmarks, a person could readily stay on top of it. If the prevailing attitude is "MeeGo by developers for developers, common folk need not apply", then I'd prefer to not see information about it here. This type of attitude is why I chose not to participate in bug tracking. IMHO, some of the best programs for the N900 were written by developers who actively engaged and encouraged feedback from the non-developers in the community. The interaction in threads about those programs contributed to quick development into a robust product that was easy to use. If you'd prefer to limit the exposure of MeeGo DE (perhaps it should be DOE, developer only edition, as opposed to CE, community? edition) to mostly developers, you'd probably be better off if you didn't post information here where non-developers have easy access. |
Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
Since there is a forum for
maemo.org > Talk > OS / Platform > MeeGo / Harmattan Answer has to be Yes. Simples. |
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