Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

In my yesterday's thread, I am thinking whether buying a N900 now or wait for the next Nokia N9XX with Maemo 6 OS.

I thinked about this deeply last night and I found one point.
This is the key point and a very big difference between Nokia Maemo device and Android device/Apple iPhone.

That is :
Both iPhone and Android phone can upgrade their OS.
(iPhone can upgrade from OS 1.0 to 2.0, then to 3.0
Android can upgrade OS version from 1.5 to 2.1)

But N900 cannot.
Also, all NOKIA phones cannot upgrade OS.
(I mean cross-version upgrade, not just the bug fixing upgrade)

It's just like on my PC, I can use Ubuntu 8.04.3.
I can also install 8.10 or 9.04 or 9.10.
When 10.04 release on Apr.2010,
of course, I can install it on my PC.

But it seems that NOKIA's "rule" is to make the mobile phone and OS a bundle.
For instance, you cannot install Maemo 5 on N810.
and it seems Maemo 6 cannot run properly on N900.

I think this "NOKIA rule" may be OK with some S40 low-end (entry level) mobile phones.
But for smart phone market, this action should not be taken.

So I am wondering whether NOKIA could provide a CD image
or some thing like that to let the end user install the OS by ourselves, just like what Apple does.

I think NOKIA should think about this question.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

I think it should be a marketing consideration or what.
Because this "buddle strategy" makes you have to buy a new mobile phone if you want to experience the new OS.

But take a look at iPhone and Android, they also make a big sucess
with their OS upgrade supported.

The iPhone and Android mobile phone has a common point :
Their hardware spec is very similar and no big change between different generation products. For example, the iPhone and iPhone 3GS
are very similar in hardware spec, only the CPU and RAM upgrade on 3GS.

This "good design at first time and small change in the next generations" strategy makes the OS upgrade possible.

And let's take a look at Nokia's products, N770, N800, N810, N900

different specs, lead to different OS.

I think it's time to stop changing the spec now !

Just settle down a standard and hardware spec,

and then develop the OS based on that hardware spec,

to make the OS upgrade possible.

Better start from Maemo 6 and the relevant device. :D

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

Every iPhone screen is the same etc., but not every Android screen and etc., which makes difficult to run or develop software for different android version and devices...

Maemo5 and N810, this is the problem of hardware of the device. Compare the hardware of the N810 and N900 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interne..._Tablet_models ), there is a significant difference...an older CPU-architecture with less power and the half size of RAM...

Also look at this --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maemo_%...elease_history

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

Keep in mind Apple's idea of a full OS upgrade is adding copy/paste.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

Thank you for your thread.

Just like you said, iPhone screen is the same because there is only one vendor : Apple Inc.

And Android had several hardware vendors, such as HTC, Asus, Lenovo, Motorola etc. and Google want it to be like this.
But let's take a look at one Anroid phone, we take HTC G3 (Hero)
for instance, it can also support cross-version OS upgrade.
From 1.5 to 2.1. But Nokia device cannot do that.


I know it is the hardware spec difference that cause the OS upgrade impossible on N810.
And that is exactly what I want to say, I suggest NOKIA do not make big hardware changes any more.

You can upgrade the CPU, or RAM size, screen size(not resolution), to make the device runs more quickly.

But should not interfere the OS upgrade.

Anyone has the same idea ?

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

I'd be willing to bet that some within Nokia would argue this would make them less-competitive (granted they aren't that competitive in the 'highend smartphone' department currently..)

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

Yes. N900 is not very competitive in smartphone market.
One big reason is the software quantity.
So I think Nokia should not make changes any more,
and the quantity of the software will raise also.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

I think NOKIA definately had thought about it.

And now Maemo has only a few softwares.

If cannot upgrade the OS, what else can we expect ?

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

This isn't quite right. It requires a complete rebuild of the OS. On your desktop there is x86 and AMD64.. so the OS will still run.

OMAP-2 to OMAP-3 requires a complete recompile.

Then you have The 3D. The N810 only supports OpenGL1.1 (IIRC), but the foundation of Maemo 5 is OpenGLES 2 (IIRC, version numbers suspect.) - meaning that the hardware of the N810 simply not only requires a complete recompile of Maemo 5.. but an actual complete re-write because of the 3D requirements.

Think of trying to run Crysis Warhead on your old Pentium 400mhz.

Now.. with all that said:

I was and am hugely against the decision to not bring Maemo 6 to the N900 because from everything released so far (M6 device being based on OMAP-3 as well) - there should be no reason it can't run on the N900.

However, Qgil asked me and others in another thread to hold off until the release of more M6 details before passing judgement and I plan to do just that.

From what little we know so far... at the very least it appears that the QT libraries are going to be supported for M5 for sometime and M6 is entirely based on the QT libraries. This means that even though the OS itself may not be upgradeable... the software written for one should work for the other.. barring certain hardware incompatibilities such as Multi-Touch (which M6 has been said to support, since it will be based on capacitive touchscreen).

All information above taken from about 100 (approximate, give or take 95 or so) different threads already written about this topic from these forums... and may be perfectly accurate, somewhat accurate, or wildly inaccurate.

Take it as you will.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

I dont think they should stop hardware changes. Technology is always improving and new hardware upgrades are necessary. If N900 had the specs of the N800 would it ever be as popular? I doubt it...iphone has hardware changes too but its mainly built the same, making upgrades possible, Nokia cannot do this because they have different types of phones, not just 1 like the iphone. Android phones are also basically the same. Nokia has business phones, media phones, and internet-centric phones, and basic dumb-phones. they cant all have the same software because they're entirely different devices with different purposes.

Also, the n900 was somewhat of a test-run for Nokia to get feedback and things, so i dont think it will have a long life, or future support. i think they're maemo 6 devices which will be more refined will have more support for updates and things.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

Yes, Nokia has different products.
Most of them are using Symbian OS.
Different generation models use different version Symbian OS.
It is OK till now.

But I think Nokia should not use this rule on Internet Tablet Series product (N900).

Because the competitors do not do this.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

Not too sure what your on about here, the apple new OS or "update" was simply some additional bits of the same OS, copy paste etc. I have had the same update scenario on the Maemo on my n900 with the new version being installed. Its entirely upgradable as much as iPhone is.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

I mean iPhone can upgrade from OS 1.0 to 2.0, then to 3.0.

But for Nokia Internet Tablet devices,
N810 cannot upgrade from OS2008 to Maemo 5.
And it seems that N900 cannot upgrade from Maemo 5 to Maemo 6.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

t-mobile g1 cannot upgrade from android 1.6 to 2.1

pentium3 perhaps cannot run windows vista properly

point is as time passes OS requirements for hardware change as it adds more functionaility.
i think this is only natural. :)

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

iPhone cant run Max OSX or windows or linux, n900 can.

I think its a LOT more upgradable than any other phone.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

I think just as sxc said here :

Other vendors typically support their hardware with the latest version of their OS for at least 18 month after their introduction.

So, the G2 or G3 phone can upgrade from 1.6 to 2.1.
iPhone can upgrade from 1.0 to 2.0, then 3.0.

But N810 or N900 do not have such a chance.

It will be acceptable if N810 can upgrade to Maemo 5
or N900 can upgrade to Maemo 6.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

N900 has a ARM CPU, but MAC OS X and Windows are based on i386 (x86&x64) architecture.

So N900 use a emulator to run MAC OS X and Windows.

It is very very slow and not practical.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

waiting for upgradable ARM handheld wifi device.

N810 have good screen size and keyboard. hope open source Mer can be completed soon and run on it.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

All the worry about if and when the N900 will get Maemo 6 is really a non-issue. And comparisons to other OS upgradeablity are out of whack with reality.

The iPhone can - so far. At some point - likely very soon - that must change as newer versions of OS-X become unusable on older hardware. For instance, the original iPhone can't run 3G due to hardware limitations. The iPhone OS upgrade train will inevitably come off the tracks.

As for Android, already some phones running Android 1x are unable to upgrade to Android 2x. And OS updates that have been released are causing many apps to break. Compatibility issues with apps on various versions of Android has become a serious headache for developers.

You're making assumptions. That has not yet been determined.

There is no such 'rule'.

That may be a possibility.

But regardless of whether or not the N900 ever gets Maemo 6, it will have little impact on the value or useability of the N900. From a post I made in another thread:

"Maemo 6 apps will be QT-based. But QT 4.6 is ported to Maemo 5, so most (if not all) Maemo 6 apps will run on Maemo 5. So Nokia's plan is...the N900/Maemo 5 will continue to be able to run new, cool stuff for a long time, even if it never gets the 5-to-6 upgrade.

Nokia (qgil, actually) has already publicly stated - here in this very forum - that right now, Nokia has more than just bugfixes already in the works for Maemo 5 and the N900. Speculate all you want as to what those improvements might be and when they will be implemented. But the point is that more is definitely on the way for the N900. It has not and will not be abandoned anytime soon by Nokia.

Now, given all that, where's the problem?"

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

By what I've heard from another thread "Qgil" said that it is may be possible that Maemo 6 might become available for N900 or N900 might be able to upgrade, he and his team is working hard on bringing the technology to people, but he cannot say more than that. Because it is classified information. But it is not yet official by Nokia. He adds that Nokia keeping some surprise for the N900 owners later end of this year. The surprise would be maemo6 upgrade. But don't take my word for it.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

Qgil also said the usb port problem with limited to pre-production devices ...

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

Total BS. For example, the Nokia 5800 now has the new home screen from the 5230 and kinetic scrolling.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

Well.. In one of the many (yes, I know it's hard to find, as there is so many) threads about this exact same thing.. two well respected members of the community (GeneralAntilles being one) said that at the Barcelona Maemo Summit a Nokia Vice President of one of the departments over the Mobile section said, quite specifically in no unclear terms, that the N900 will not be getting M6.

And to someone else, I have found no where that Qgil said that M6 was possible for the N900... what I have seem him say is that we should wait until the SDK release, or at least more information, about M6 before we speculate what will or won't happen with the N900.

I will be surprised if the N900 receives M6 when a VP said that it would not (and I'm not inclined to disbelieve the General) - however, that doesn't mean that Nokia hasn't planned, or isn't working on some way to combine the two, or make M5 continue to be usable and unique past the M6 release.

At this point, we simply don't know what the future holds for the N900.

Also, to the OP regarding "history"... The N770 came with OS2005 and was then upgraded to OS2006. The N800 shipped with OS2007, and while the 770 wasn't supported, Nokia did create a OS2007HE which was basically OS2007 for the 770. Thus the 770 got 3 full OS upgrades.

Now the N800 had OS2007 out the door, and when the N810 hit the market it had OS2008. The N800 got the update to OS2008 as well... and then both the N810 and N800 got the minor update to Diablo.

So.. looking at the "history"... the 770 got 2 supported, 1 unsupported OS upgrades, the 800 got 2 + a minor, and N810 got a minor.

Now.. the trend does seem to be going in the wrong direction.. but at the same time it's not exactly unheard of for Nokia's "tablets" to be receiving OS upgrades.

This thread, and others like it, are mostly pointless at this time. Nokia is guaranteed to have already heard the screams of others, myself included, in one of the other M6 to N900 threads on this forum.

Quim asked us to wait.. I don't see why that's such a big problem. If lack of N900 upgrades is enough to make you not want an N900... then wait for the m6, or buy an Android. If the N900 does everything you want it to now... then there isn't a problem here. There will always be something better right around the corner.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

Could some one like Qgil tell us something about this ?

I think if Qgil make a statement that N900 can upgrade to Maemo 6.

Then the sales of N900 will improve a lot !

Why we cannot see a statement like that now ?

I think it is because that NOKIA deside not to release this upgrade.


PS.
After HTC G3 put into market, HTC official annouce that G3 can

upgrade to Android 2.1. But we have no news from NOKIA after

N900 release about the system upgrade strategy.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

从m5到m6升级？又不是说m5就不发展了、完善了，m5不也是一直在出新固件的么，别太在意 版本号了。

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

你最好发到N900板块去，而不是在Competitors板块

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

Maybe they are still considering wether or not to make Maemo 6 available for the N900?

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

There's been no news from Apple about whether their new OS will work on older iPhones either. It's very uncommon to announce support before you've actually finished development.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

One of the positive aspects of the "AppStore model" is that it's a new revenue stream for handset manufacturers that their income isn't solely generated by hardware sales. The phones are not the end product, but they become content delivery machines that can keep generating revenues for the AppStore owner.

This is an added incentive for them to:

a). Support the existing phones/devices as long as possible.
b). Upgrade their old handsets to be compatible with the AppStore model, enabling them to generate income from the old models.
c). Design their products to be as backward-forward compatible as possible, while incorporating new features to enhance the new products.

Apple nailed the above aspects well... so I'd say there'll be more iPhone-like traits in future smartphones (including from Nokia).

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

Do you suggest that hardware manufacturers would make more money from the small cut they get from a customer buying 5-6 new applications for 4-5 dollars each than they would make if they force you into buying a new $500 handset 6 months earlier than you normally would? I don't believe this makes sense.

Nokia and Apple sell hardware; the apps, stores, open source, is just the bait to make their hardware more attractive. I am sure that when Apple come up with how to change the iPhone (the upgrades we've witnessed are insubstantial compared to what NITs have gone through, for example), they will abandon backwards compatibility.

OTOH, software companies like MS maintain compatibility to an unmatched extent.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

Surely it also depends on how apple, android and nokia are structuring there OS releases. Just because apple have changed to version number from 1.0 -3.0 and soon to be 4.0 is there really that much of a difference compared to the difference in maemo 1-5 and soon to be 6. Don't forget that apple 1.0 was always destined to be on the iPhone where Maemo started life on a MID

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

Apple are barely making money on the AppStore currently though, so I don't think this is quite the model they're going for.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

Very true, the latest firmware update has made the 5800 a completely new phone.

The request in the original post is just like saying why can't my old 5 year old PC run Windows 7.

To my knowledge, the main reason for the differences in Symbian S60 devices is due to screen sizes.

I'm sure that I have read posts of people putting other linux distributions on heir n900.

The n900 is the first 'phone' device from Nokia that has an open and upgradable OS........i know it's not officially a phone.

I think that provided the hardware requirements for M6 are within the n900 capabilities, it will be upgradeable, but if not, it will only mean that Nokia will have a better device out (which would no doubt be able to run M5).

As far as the iPhone goes, just because they call it an OS, doesn't really mean it is a new OS, most are just upgrades of the same OS

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

I find this http://androidphone.org.uk, you can compare this androids, for me the designs and UI of the phones look all like more or less the same...for the iPhone it's really clear...

Now compare the N8xx with N900...BING!

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

Very good point.

I know you mean that from iPhone OS 1.0 to 3.0 there is just no big updates. And, Android 1.5 to 2.1 is not big update either.

But there are a lot of softwares for iPhone and Android now.
For N900, there are only a few softwares.

If we take Android for example, it takes about 1 year to develop so many softwares for Google phone. And many hardware vendor take part in that.

For Maemo 5 on N900, the software development speed is much slower. And the software transplant from Linux is not so easy, it will also take at least 1 year to get as many softwares as Android has now.
And by that time, the Maemo 6 will release.

So back to the topic, I think NOKIA should provide M6 upgrade for N900 and speed up the development of the softwares.

I predict that in the year 2011 or 2012, Maemo will be more perfect and have various applications and functions.

But before that, Android will take more market share on smart phone market.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

And one thing more, N900 is very weak at phone function.

It will be better if NOKIA could enhance this part.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

That's not what I said.

Any good companies are always looking to grow themselves. Be it from expanding their current market segment or entering potential new ones.

Where in the old business model they don't get any revenues _AT_ALL_ from their old products, in the new app/content-delivery market, these old products can potentially keep a revenue stream for them. Don't for get that:

a). The app/content library will always grow
b). So will their customer base, as second hand handsets are passed on to other users

You do the math.

Well we're not talking about software companies here.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

no, not from the OLD products, but from the new ones that are being sold more often due to the need of the customers to keep up when compatibility breaks.

Let's wait and see whether Maemo 6 and 5 are compatibe (or if n900 runs Maemo 6), and whether any real changes to the iPhone (e.g decent screen resolution or improvements in the OS usability) break backward compatibility or not. Then we can talk again.

As to apps, the vast majority of those simply compensate for the lack of real computer capabilities on the smartphones. As phones become able to run real computer software, most apps will become obsolete.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

Let's see how long they can maintain this business models when their competition gives the users better backward\forward compatibility.

All iPhone apps will run on the iPad, with its XGA screen. Unmodified iPhone apps are given the option to run on their native resolution or pixel doubled to run in full screen.

They can add XGA interface too to take advantage of iPad's screen. I can't imagine it would be much different when they increase iPhone's screen resolution.

When you use mobile devices long enough, you'll understand the need for different requirements. Desktop-bound apps aren't suitable to be used on sub 8" screen without full sized keyboards, used while you move about during the day.

Re: Maemo device vs Android device/Apple iPhone: Upgradable Operating Systems
 

This discussion have gone little wrong in my eyes.

Yes, it can be intresting to compare the other phone companies bussiness models. But for me that is secondary.

Remember the N900 is a computer. A computer with a kernel. A kernel that can support many different devices. The only thing is to add the modules for the device. (almost)

Nokia is a phone company truying to build a computer. They are and should draw experiences from the computer market.

If M6 will not add support for N900 i will be mad at Nokia. It is really not a big thing. Computers have a great deal of hardware and it still works with the same kernel. If Nokia won't allow that in Maemo, then Maemo is really a bad OS.

I am happy with N900 and the abillity to change OS's at will but still be able to run Maemo 6 is important. I was not just compairing hardware, I was compairing operating systems. When i decided to buy N900.