Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

It looks like we are not quite on the same wavelength. I realize that the word "applications" may have an ambiguous meaning in this day and age of mobile computing. I am not referring to what is more commonly known as "apps". Rather, I mean the original meaning of the word "application", i.e. "use for a given purpose".

I do not know about you (or indeed about "most people"), but for me, the most common use cases for a mobile phone are, in the descending order of frequency:

• reading/writing emails
• reading/writing SMS
• navigation
• playing music (organized by a directory structure, not by tags)
• making/receiving phone calls
• web browsing
• using the clock and calendar
• taking (still) photos
• other, mostly niche uses like reading books and/or documents attached in emails, source code editing, using the terminal...

On my home and work PCs, the situation is not that much different:

• source code editing
• debugging
• web browsing
• reading/writing emails

In all of these applications (use cases), even a refresh rate of half a second is no big deal. True, Sailfish with its swipe interface may interfere with it slightly but not so much that one could not get used to it. I would happily trade that for a battery life measured in weeks rather than hours.

You may notice that watching or taking videos does not feature on my list. It would be because I use them very rarely. And I do not play games at all (not that there are any marvelous games for Maemo or Sailfish anyway).

Your mileage may vary, but please do not assume that everyone is like you. I did not, which is why I said (even tried to emphasize that, but perhaps I was too subtle) that I would pay extra for the option. That means, if there was a device X on the market in variants a, b, c and d and one of them had an e-ink screen, I would buy that one, even if it were the most expensive one. I did not call for e-ink as the default, let alone the only option.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

I think we all should calm down a little bit. The whole discussion doesn't really make sense in the end. We are talking about a product which isn't available yet and where we just know few things about.

As long as I don't know what the over all dimensions of the device are, I don't decide, if I will buy or not. I think i can speak for most people when I say, a larger screen makes me happy, a larger device not. Unfortunately this doesn't fit together, so anybody has to decide, if the over all size is acceptable or not. And of course this doesn't just apply to the size of the readyfx but also to many other points.

So in the end I have to judge over the total package. There will be things which I like and others which I don't like. If it is all in all a device, where the positive things predominate I will buy, if not then not.

I can't expect, that chen is building me a personal dream device. And chen can't expect that I buy a device, which is to far away from my expectations.

So it probably makes sense to tell what you like and what not . But it absolutely doesn't make sense to argue about it.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Let me put it this way. Jolla 1 has a 4.5" screen and (by today's standards) large bezels. It is about 5.75" edge to edge and it is just about the top of what I would call "comfortably usable". Please note the word "comfortably". I know I could use a bigger one, maybe even fit it in a pocket. But it would not, by any stretch of imagination, be "comfortable".

Xperia X has a 5" screen but smaller bezels that Jolla 1, making the entire device "only" 6" edge to edge. And that is above the comfortable zone, which is why I do not use it, even though I have one and it is superior to Jolla 1 in every other aspect. The lack of comfortable use is the deciding factor.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

http://youtu.be/OyjjYYpTK7Y

How to embed a YouTube video :confused:

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Is the screen connected to the case yet?

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

OK so I will add my spoon to the soup to create the perfect blend... You know, the more cooks... :D

In my opinion the pocketability of a device is more dependent on the width of the device, not the length. (dimensions in portrait position, that is)

Jolla sbj1 is 131 by 68
XperiaX is 143 by 69
DeviceFx could be 137 by 69, assuming 1mm bezels around (could be more of course, especially lengthwise)

In my opinion all of those are pocketable.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Have you ever used a e-ink device? I ask, because it seems you have some misconceptions about the technical details of e-ink devices. All the points i cited in your list would be horrible experiences with an e-ink device.

I will try to explain why:
Navigation:
You want to have a display of your car, where it is in a map and which way to go. Otherwise you could just use printed instructions. Current e-ink displays flicker each time they are updated. Color has not yet made it into commercial e-ink devices. So you have a constantly flickering display, for which you have to create a custom navigation app which offers at least some contrast between the map and the car and finally you will use quite a lot of power. Why? e-ink consumes power when its updated. Constant updates and its not much better than any other modern display.

At night you would have to illuminate the device to see your navigation, or you make it thicker and add an illumination layer.

Web Browsing:
Smooth scrolling is widely expected, not possible with e-ink.
Colors are missing, you can install redlight or flux and set it to full dark, giving you a black/red image, even with grayscale (redscale).
Browse the web a bit. You will see, many things a re now very difficult to read because of missing contrast.
Examples: lights in "help us keep on the lights" top right of maemo talk has nearly the same color as the background. The youtube subscribe button is invisible, with just black and white it will be way worse.

Taking still photos:
Similar to web browsing you will not know:
Did the contrast wok out?
Have I over/underexposed something?
Did the white balance work?
And zooming would suffer from issues like in navigation.

Email, typing, sourcecode, terminal:
Constant flicker will make you crazy, type fast and you will see spelling errors half a sentence later. Fast scrolling terminal output? You will miss half of it due to the refresh rate.

-------------

E-ink is great and has its uses for reading or standby screens,
but it cannot replace an LCD or OLED screen. Not even for your restricted set of usage.

As the technology is quite new (as a focus of industry) constant progress is made.
There are prototypes which are impressive: Color, no visible flickering and 33 frames per second.
They also have disadvantages: Colors seem washed out, its no longer bistable (requires the image to be refreshed from time to time)

So it seems an e-ink device which suits your needs is 5 years of research away and its 10 years before a commercial solution may appear.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Hum, I fear this whole flaming discussion started because of my reaction about the 6" screen. I'm sorry to have initiated this thing :c

About the screen size, I fully understand that smaller screen than 5" and modern is something almost impossible to find. But 5" and 5.5" are available. I also understand very well that this is a first step in order to get the most customers and I'll not complain about it ! But I thought a smaller device will attract more people. However, and I didn't know it before posting, the Gemini device is also 6" and had some success, so it looks it's fine for many people.

I thougth that my concerns about power consumption, carrying it in a pocket, using it with one hand, solidity and having a keyboard which is not to big and good to use were relevants and not questions from smartphone prehistory. Anyway, I think there are better way to talk about it than by flamming and offending people without any true argumentation, especially when some of us here are moderators.

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I saw a comment here about stylus. There isn't necessary need to have a resistive screen or a special stylus, Few year ago, some Lumia had capacitive screens which worked with standard gloves or other things.

I'm not sure, there is a color e-link screens on pebble smartwhatches. However, the colors aren't good. And in any case, the refresh rate is not enough for a smarpthone.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

That was me:D. And I probably would even accept a 6.5" device if it comes with keyboard, an integrated stylus and a proper OS. :D:p

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

I stand pleasantly corrected!
I looked it up and the display supports 64 colors which is quite good and it even has good refresh rates.
For pleasant web browsing I suppose 4096 colors would be the minimum. For Images we want much more.

It even seems that 32.000 color displays are now on the market. The refresh rate seems to be 50Hz, but information on power consumption is not yet available. The display isn't bistable.

But now back to topic.

I think discussion about hardware and features is good as long as it is civil and maybe even backed up by facts.

Sure Chen will develop the phone and can't change the screen size anymore I suppose, but discussion keeps this place busy, keeps interest in the development and may bring up interesting ideas or concepts for follow up devices.

When Chen posts updates about the device, here, on twitter or on the newsletter, it will be surprising, how fast the thread is back on topic. And of course it will wander of equally fast after that ;)

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

[QUOTE=Macros;1551958
I think discussion about hardware and features is good as long as it is civil and maybe even backed up by facts.[/QUOTE]

100% agreement

Sure Chen will develop the phone and can't change the screen size anymore I suppose, but discussion keeps this place busy, keeps interest in the development and may bring up interesting ideas or concepts for follow up devices. /QUOTE]

I'm quite sure Chen CAN change the screen size. Anyway I hope he don't do that. Even so I'm not really pleased with 6", it's what Chen's development based on. Changing screen size would mean changing a lot more. And that would lead to delays. And the later the device comes the more outdated the hardware would be on start. And that further on would lead probably to not being successful. And i think we all hope that Chen is successful.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

6 inch device with keyboard. well its definitely not a small screen and i wonder if it is easy to hold the device in landscape mode with keyboard. i am using a crapdroid with 6 inch full view screen and i can't hold it easily when i tilt it (with my small t-rex hands). but i am sure that maker has some tricks up his sleeves and figured something out.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

With regards to screen size, one of the reasons that pushed me towards a bigger screen was the specs in general. Of all the big brands in the Android space, the only device manufacture that offered a worthy smaller screen device was Sony. At the time, OnePlus 3T era haven't checked lately, they would shrink the screen, reduce battery and that was it. Processor, storage, RAM, camera... All were left the same.

Now, Chen has to target where they feel they will get the most sales. If successful with this device, and possibly a follow up, and cash reserves build up, then they can experiment. That being said, although the screen may suit more mainstream audience, form factor may be more suited to us. You could make it ultra targeted at one demographic but then limit sales.

Unfortunately, like many, I can't commit to this until I see it actually released. I don't have the funds at the moment to say one way or the other as to if I will get one

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

How do you actually commit to this? As far as I can tell there has been no request go funding. Just asking...

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

I don't want to get involved in a quote war so I will just answer to the e-mails example (but this can be extended to all similar use cases). Writing anything with an e-ink display is a torture. I mean, it really is. Have you tried?

I love e-ink displays, they are amazing for what they are made for, like reading static content, but they are excruciatingly painful for anything that requires even the slightest form of interaction. Displaying the camera feed, scrolling, refreshing, displaying the one character you just typed half a second before. The input lag and the experience are like having a video conversation with your mother in law while she is sitting on the moon and using GPRS.

The OH I wanted the most for my Jolla 1 was the e-ink prototype by Kimoli. This was by far my most anticipated OH. I wanted it for notifications and ebook reading. However, I would never have traded the main screen of my Jolla for an e-ink one, even though I would have been frustrated to say no to an e-ink display. Yet, it seems that you and I use our phones for roughly the same applications and tasks.

Don't forget that we would increase battery life with e-ink only, but we would certainly not go from hours to weeks. Unlike ebook/epub devices, a smartphone could not go into sleep mode after each refresh, the OS behind is much more complex and demands more power, and the CPU and network chips are still eating massive amounts of power while the screen is off, especially if some tasks are running (like music, browser, etc.).

I understand that your mileage may vary, but having the same use cases for my phone, I find it very surprising that you think an e-ink display would be the right horse. Then again I might be wrong, maybe you know exactly what are the downsides and have confirmed that you can live with them for one to two days of extra battery life. I am no one to debate such choice, but this would certainly be an unusual one given the measurable flaws of e-ink displays.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

It’s very easy. Because I have big hands using 5,8 inch device and reach the slider in top in Portrait mode.

Just want highlight that 6 inch sounds cool to some.

I would like to have 8 inch just to see how the other half lives...

Yes it was a joke. Funny. Ha Ha ha..sorry: Ho Ho Ho

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

As a video is better than a long description, here is what debian looks like on a Eink screen (Kobo reader) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rkoHcJGo18 (I tried it, it was fun to use, but you quickly get mad of the flicker).
There are some other people who tried similar things, with great success like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob67Fgd_ZgE. You can see there is less flicker, as they are using a trick to reduce the full redraws of the screen, but that create ghosting and at some point you still need to do the full redrawing cycle to see something (full white, full black, full white, then only display what you want) which is hard on the eyes. It is ok for readers, when you have only a redraw each time your turn a page, not on something dynamic like typing a mail at a decent rate.
That is not from the latest Eink tech, but I didn't heard they solved this so far.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Waiting for Q1 2019/this phone to release makes me wish for a nuclear winter.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

There is absolutely nothing that indicates that you will get this phone Q1. I would assume a few selected will get it first and not a Big Bang.

This is me speculating but it would take way the fun of the release. All or nothing would be the best FIFO delivery.

But I would assume Q1 2020 is more likely.

You get Global warming instead.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Just a quick comment:
AFAIK, Pebble does not have an e-ink display (no Pebble variation had it, be it color or b&w). Some website may simplify it as such (also could be good marketing of Pebble, calling it "e-paper"), but it is an LCD display.

See:
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Pebb...n/13319#s45410
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Pebb...Teardown/42382

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Yeah, the so called "e-paper" displays are low power LCDs. Still nowhere near the power draw of the e-ink displays.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Sorry, wasn't all that clear. I didn't mean it in relation to a Kickstarter or anything like that. As you correctly started, I don't think there is one. I meant more along the lines of committing myself to get one. At the moment, due to the issues experienced by other projects, such as by Chen with the tablet/keyboard, the GTA04 based N900 and the number other promising campaigns that have hit snags, I need more reassurance. I expect many others to be in the same boat. Dave999, may order one regardless if his tablet money is fully refunded so if it goes belly up he has something to still moan about :p

PlayStation 5, I'll be pre-ordering straight away. It's Sony. They've made 4 others that were successful. Generally speaking I have no problems with their hardware. They sold millions. I'm comfortable backing them.

Nintendo are an example of something else I mentioned about having reserves to experiment. Wii onwards have enabled alternative methods of control but all have also supported gamepads so as not to alienate previous buyers. The WiiU also experimented with form factor and flopped. The Switch is a bit like an evolution of the WiiU and is now a huge success. With the success of previous efforts, the WiiU's failure, although a loss in terms of profit (not sure about R&D and other expenses for a net figure) was coped with.

Chen's project is still getting off the ground. There's no dedicated fanbase to the brand pestering stores to preorder (if they could). There's no millions of previous sales. The lure is the keyboard, a useful addition as opposed to Blackphone's security or Turing's fancy metal. Paranoid security is good but it doesn't have a "watch this mate" to the average person down the pub. The keyboard is user promotable to general public. How does it work? Slide and type. If they don't get that, they have a problem. Try explaining network security, mitigation, best practices etc to a technophobe.

A useful, user promotable feature, mainstream screen etc. makes me think this could be a success. Until I see some reviews and devices delivered I'll have to hold out.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Interesting. So you can market anything as anything.

My digital watch from the 1970s had an LCD and lasted well over two years on a small button cell battery. With a 40 years old technology. My first smartphone (running Palm OS) also had an LCD and lasted about 10 days on a single charge. Sometimes I feel like the technology "progress" goes backwards and we are just blndly accepting it.

Regarding speculations in this thread, of course they are not productive and I apologize for getting dragged in them too. On the other hand, absolutely nothing is certain abound this mythical device so speculations are very much in line with everything else.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

The screens of current smartphones certainly draw more power than the display of a digital watch, but I believe their relative importance in the overall power use is far behind that of other components that also evolved since then. Current smartphones don't last more than 2 days even when the screen is off. A watch or even and old Palm OS smartphone can't really compare with nowadays devices in terms of performance. The current OSes, applications or network speeds wouldn't be possible with the older technologies, and it really does change the use cases.

This is the progress that "we accepted" (it's not like we really had a choice though, otherwise TMO users would still have recent HWKB phones), but it came with trade-offs on the power draw. Marketing surely facilitated the transition but I'm sure it would have gone in the same direction even without brands renewing their flagship every year.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

It is my understanding that e-ink is a trademark of a specific company. "Epaper is the general name for a display technology that works by reflected light, and takes no (or very, very little) power for a static image."

Also in general, I happy that the thread came back to more rational discussions. I have no need to argue/debate about something that is not out yet and mostly out of our control ... :D.

I'm just happy to share my affinity towards obscure devices ... with even more obscure OS ... lol.

Looking forward to the next info drop from Chen.

x

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Hep

Just what i'm doing now... Waiting My New Precious...

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

I have no problems putting my Moto Z Play 5.5 inch display in my shirt pocket. Which was a big jump in size from my N9, but I have grown used to the larger size of the Z Play and like it for the ease of reading.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

"...ease of reading."

Yes, Please.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

New newsletter is out, this time it's about the keyboard.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

I told You before... It is coming... My New Precious... Great...

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

The keyboard layout is amazing, having function keys on both sides removes my biggest concerns about the size of the device. Even if I cannot comfortably reach over the whole keyboard, there remains no combo for which I have to do it. Awesome!

Only the funny Caps key, I always end up remapping or disabling it on every PC I use.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Very classy design, I like it!

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Chen, the C and V keys are still inverted in the picture shown in the last newsletter. This is something I had mentioned some months ago when you showed me a couple early pictures on Telegram. I thought it was corrected but with this newsletter, I prefer to ask again, better safe than sorry. Can you confirm it will be fixed in the final design?

Thanks for the newsletter. I was actually checking my emails today because I felt like Christmas eve was a very timely moment to send some news about our very anticipated device. Glad you thought so too. :D

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Thank you! I have already sent the message out to correct this mis-placement. It's just error on the picture.

And Merry Christmas to everyone!!

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Merry Christmas to everyone.

QWERTY works or just image?

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Good news, thanks!

Is there any reason why the comma "," is present on two keys, close to each other? I reckon it's just an error on the picture too but I am wondering what will be the actual symbol.

It would be great to have dead keys for accents, for those writing in non-English languages with QWERTY keyboards. For instance, there is a key for ` on the left, but none for ´, or ¨, or ^.

I use Qwerty on all my computers and therefore use US-International and dead keys to type accented characters when writing in my language, and I believe I won't be able to do so here because the US-International layout does not exist for this custom keyboard design, yet I don't really want to learn something else than Qwerty. I understand that my situation might be a corner case, but those ` ´ ^ ¨ can be useful in several European languages. If they can be configured by the user, even if not visible on the keyboard, this would be enough, but I'm not sure whether mobile OSes support dead keys.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Here is the picture of the keyboard for the lazy people out there who didn't subscribe to the newsletter :p

Edit:
The second comma that you see, is actually a '
They probably used a wrong symbol over there as well.
All the symbols ` ' " ^ are there on the keyboard, so you can use them for the dead keys. Android and Maemo5 does support dead keys, don't know about the others though.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Looks friking gr8.

Given that it’s real an kickin.

Especially love the arrows which I don’t have on my 900.

Also a pipe is really nice to have ease axe es to. Quick and dirty.

Will we have a TMO discount?

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Its a thing of beauty. Merry Christmas and happy holidays to all! Bring on 2019!

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Merry Xmas! What variants there will be? Scandic?